Trees, Woods, Forest

[Lewis]

The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.

I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

[Jack Campin]

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Puddle, pool, pond, lake
Track, path, road, highway

or am I mistaking what you're after?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Hen Hanna]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Puddle, pool, pond, lake
Track, path, road, highway
or am I mistaking what you're after?

Other than this:
Loading Image...

I too don't see anything special about tree-wood-forest

splinter stick twig branch ... tree-wood-forest
HH

[Lewis]

Post by Hen Hanna

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Puddle, pool, pond, lake

That's good.

Post by Hen Hanna

Post by Jack Campin
Track, path, road, highway

The first two imply walking and the last two vehicles, but I suppose.

Post by Hen Hanna

Post by Jack Campin
or am I mistaking what you're after?

I was thinking about plurals.

Post by Hen Hanna
http://www.japanesejoy.com/wp-content/uploads/tree-wood-forest.jpg
I too don't see anything special about tree-wood-forest
splinter stick twig branch

Stick and twig are pretty much synonyms, there's no size progression
there; splinter is not a synonym for the others at all.

[Cheryl]

Post by Lewis

Post by Hen Hanna

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Puddle, pool, pond, lake

That's good.

Post by Hen Hanna

Post by Jack Campin
Track, path, road, highway

The first two imply walking and the last two vehicles, but I suppose.

Post by Hen Hanna

Post by Jack Campin
or am I mistaking what you're after?

I was thinking about plurals.

Post by Hen Hanna
http://www.japanesejoy.com/wp-content/uploads/tree-wood-forest.jpg
I too don't see anything special about tree-wood-forest
splinter stick twig branch

Stick and twig are pretty much synonyms, there's no size progression
there; splinter is not a synonym for the others at all.

I think sticks are bigger than twigs, and usually, like splinters,
aren't still attached to a tree. A twig and branch are usually, but not
necessarily, attached to a tree, and in any case still look like they
were recently attached to a tree.

[RH Draney]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Puddle, pool, pond, lake
Track, path, road, highway
or am I mistaking what you're after?

Pebble, stone, rock, boulder?...

In the case of the original triplet, are you familiar with the Chinese
characters for:

tree (mù - http://zhongwen.com/d/164/x236.htm),
woods (lín - http://zhongwen.com/d/170/x76.htm)
and forest (sên - http://zhongwen.com/d/180/x203.htm)

which consist of one, two and three iterations of the "tree" radical
respectively?...r

[Lewis]

Post by RH Draney

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Puddle, pool, pond, lake
Track, path, road, highway
or am I mistaking what you're after?

Pebble, stone, rock, boulder?...

Pebble, stone, and rock do not show a progression in size.

Post by RH Draney
In the case of the original triplet, are you familiar with the Chinese
tree (mù - http://zhongwen.com/d/164/x236.htm),
woods (lín - http://zhongwen.com/d/170/x76.htm)
and forest (sên - http://zhongwen.com/d/180/x203.htm)
which consist of one, two and three iterations of the "tree" radical
respectively?...r

Not until I saw it in this thread, no.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Lewis

Post by RH Draney

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Puddle, pool, pond, lake
Track, path, road, highway
or am I mistaking what you're after?

Pebble, stone, rock, boulder?...

Pebble, stone, and rock do not show a progression in size.

They do in British English, but you guys confuse the matter by using
"rocks" for what we call "stones".

Post by Lewis

Post by RH Draney
In the case of the original triplet, are you familiar with the Chinese
tree (mù - http://zhongwen.com/d/164/x236.htm),
woods (lín - http://zhongwen.com/d/170/x76.htm)
and forest (sên - http://zhongwen.com/d/180/x203.htm)
which consist of one, two and three iterations of the "tree" radical
respectively?...r

Not until I saw it in this thread, no.

[RH Draney]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Lewis

Post by RH Draney
Pebble, stone, rock, boulder?...

Pebble, stone, and rock do not show a progression in size.

They do in British English, but you guys confuse the matter by using
"rocks" for what we call "stones".

We were distracted by the similar confusion over how to line up "a bit",
"quite" and "rather"....r

[Lewis]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Lewis

Post by RH Draney

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Puddle, pool, pond, lake
Track, path, road, highway
or am I mistaking what you're after?

Pebble, stone, rock, boulder?...

Pebble, stone, and rock do not show a progression in size.

They do in British English, but you guys confuse the matter by using
"rocks" for what we call "stones".

A pebble may be a stone or a rock, and it may be MADE of stone or rock,
but a stone or rock cannot be made of pebble. A pebble may be any small
obstruction or spherical-ish object. The pebble in my shoe may not be
made of stone, and could just be a hard clump of dirt or brick.

I would say that both rock and stone are probably larger than a pebble,
but either may be hand-sized or larger.

Rocks are thrown through windows (or thrown in general), but this is not
usually true of stones unless one is reading KJV, where they are cast.

I'd say the smoother a fist-sized or larger bit of rock is, the more
likely it is to be a stone, and that it is this more than size that
might distinguish the two.

River rocks are rough and jagged, while river stones are smooth as
pebbles.

But with trees, wood, and forest all three words mean "multiple trees"
and the distinction is merely in the number and/or grouping.

couple->crowd->mob doesn't work, for example, because crowd doesn't just
mean people, it can be a crowd of anything. In fact, we will say "a
crowd of people". Similarly, mob may apply to any animals.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Lewis
Rocks are thrown through windows (or thrown in general), but this is not
usually true of stones unless one is reading KJV, where they are cast.

So the word means very different things in different places. In my
language, if you can lift it (perhaps with the aid of a few friends)
then it's not a rock.

[Janet]

In article <om5vov$1gj$***@dont-email.me>, ***@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis
Rocks are thrown through windows (or thrown in general), but this is not
usually true of stones unless one is reading KJV, where they are cast.

So the word means very different things in different places. In my
language, if you can lift it (perhaps with the aid of a few friends)
then it's not a rock.

If you can't lift or shift it without a crane, it's a boulder. Our
garden has several of these (granite incidentals).

Loading Image...
640&h=427

Janet.

[Lewis]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis
Rocks are thrown through windows (or thrown in general), but this is not
usually true of stones unless one is reading KJV, where they are cast.

So the word means very different things in different places. In my
language, if you can lift it (perhaps with the aid of a few friends)
then it's not a rock.

Searching google "throw rocks" and "throw stone" come up relatively even
in results, stones is definitely ahead, but they're well within the same
order of magnitude.

Ngram seems to agree, stones leads, but rocks is certainly in there.

I've never heard stone used for an object thrown through a window
though, in AmE that seems to be always a rock.

[bill van]

Post by Lewis
Ngram seems to agree, stones leads, but rocks is certainly in there.
I've never heard stone used for an object thrown through a window
though, in AmE that seems to be always a rock.

Sometimes it's a brick.

[Dingbat]

Post by bill van

Post by Lewis
Ngram seems to agree, stones leads, but rocks is certainly in there.
I've never heard stone used for an object thrown through a window
though, in AmE that seems to be always a rock.

Sometimes it's a brick.
--

Never a brickbat?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Dingbat

Post by bill van

Post by Lewis
Ngram seems to agree, stones leads, but rocks is certainly in there.
I've never heard stone used for an object thrown through a window
though, in AmE that seems to be always a rock.

Sometimes it's a brick.

Pebbles at your girlfriend's window.

Post by Dingbat
Never a brickbat?

That was something seen in Krazy Kat comics in the 1920s. No idea what they were.

[bill van]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Dingbat

Post by bill van

Post by Lewis
Ngram seems to agree, stones leads, but rocks is certainly in there.
I've never heard stone used for an object thrown through a window
though, in AmE that seems to be always a rock.

Sometimes it's a brick.

Pebbles at your girlfriend's window.

Post by Dingbat
Never a brickbat?

That was something seen in Krazy Kat comics in the 1920s. No idea what they were.

I don't recall brickbats -- highly critical, often rude comments -- by
that name in Krazy Kat. There were bricks, which Ignatz the mouse
threw at Krazy Kat's head and there was a brickyard where they were
made. But no brickbats.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by bill van

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Dingbat

Post by bill van

Post by Lewis
Ngram seems to agree, stones leads, but rocks is certainly in there.
I've never heard stone used for an object thrown through a window
though, in AmE that seems to be always a rock.

Sometimes it's a brick.

Pebbles at your girlfriend's window.

Post by Dingbat
Never a brickbat?

That was something seen in Krazy Kat comics in the 1920s. No idea what they were.

I don't recall brickbats -- highly critical, often rude comments -- by
that name in Krazy Kat. There were bricks, which Ignatz the mouse
threw at Krazy Kat's head and there was a brickyard where they were
made. But no brickbats.

According to a dictionary defiinition I just looked up, brickbats were
originally thrown bricks or pieces of bricks. By now, of course, we only
ever hear the figurative meaning.

[Ross]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by bill van

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Dingbat

Post by bill van

Post by Lewis
Ngram seems to agree, stones leads, but rocks is certainly in there.
I've never heard stone used for an object thrown through a window
though, in AmE that seems to be always a rock.

Sometimes it's a brick.

Pebbles at your girlfriend's window.

Post by Dingbat
Never a brickbat?

That was something seen in Krazy Kat comics in the 1920s. No idea what they were.

I don't recall brickbats -- highly critical, often rude comments -- by
that name in Krazy Kat. There were bricks, which Ignatz the mouse
threw at Krazy Kat's head and there was a brickyard where they were
made. But no brickbats.

According to a dictionary defiinition I just looked up, brickbats were
originally thrown bricks or pieces of bricks. By now, of course, we only
ever hear the figurative meaning.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

OED
a. A piece or fragment of a brick; properly, according to Gwilt, less
than one half of its length. It is the typical ready missile, where
stones are scarce.(from 1597)

b. fig. An uncomplimentary remark; adverse criticism. (from 1642, Milton)

Now:
Who is Gwilt? Author of "Gwilt's Rules of Rioting"?
Ah. Joseph Gwilt, An Encyclopaedia of Architecture, Historical,
Theoretical, and Practical (1859)

What about that "bat"? Just follow the link to: bat, n.2, II
"†7. A lump, piece, bit. a. esp. A piece of a brick having
one end entire." More rules!

[Janet]

Post by Dingbat

Post by bill van

Post by Lewis
Ngram seems to agree, stones leads, but rocks is certainly in there.
I've never heard stone used for an object thrown through a window
though, in AmE that seems to be always a rock.

Sometimes it's a brick.
--

Never a brickbat?

Brickbats are verbal criticisms. As in the famous saying

"Sticks and stones can break my bones but brickbats never hurt me."

Janet

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Janet

Post by Dingbat

Post by bill van

Post by Lewis
Ngram seems to agree, stones leads, but rocks is certainly in there.
I've never heard stone used for an object thrown through a window
though, in AmE that seems to be always a rock.

Sometimes it's a brick.
--

Never a brickbat?

Brickbats are verbal criticisms. As in the famous saying
"Sticks and stones can break my bones but brickbats never hurt me."

Congratulations, "brickbats never hurt me" is unknown to Google.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Lewis

Post by RH Draney

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Puddle, pool, pond, lake
Track, path, road, highway
or am I mistaking what you're after?

Pebble, stone, rock, boulder?...

Pebble, stone, and rock do not show a progression in size.

They do in British English, but you guys confuse the matter by using
"rocks" for what we call "stones".

A pebble may be a stone or a rock, and it may be MADE of stone or rock,
but a stone or rock cannot be made of pebble. A pebble may be any small
obstruction or spherical-ish object. The pebble in my shoe may not be
made of stone, and could just be a hard clump of dirt or brick.

The one in /my/ shoe has to be a small smooth stone.

Post by Lewis
I would say that both rock and stone are probably larger than a pebble,
but either may be hand-sized or larger.
Rocks are thrown through windows (or thrown in general), but this is not
usually true of stones unless one is reading KJV, where they are cast.

Or if one lives in a glass house.

Post by Lewis
I'd say the smoother a fist-sized or larger bit of rock is, the more
likely it is to be a stone, and that it is this more than size that
might distinguish the two.
River rocks are rough and jagged, while river stones are smooth as
pebbles.

...

Again, for me river rocks are smooth.

https://www.pioneersand.com/products/river_rock_cobble_beach_pebbles

I hadn't heard "river stone".

[Horace LaBadie]

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Where does copse land?

people, group, crowd, mob

[Hen Hanna]

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Where does copse land?
people, group, crowd, mob

Where does woodland land?


brush, grove,

woods · wood · thicket · bush · stand · woodlot · coppice · orchard · plantation · hurst · holt

undergrowth · bushes · scrub · underwood · underbrush · brushland · brushwood · shrubs · chaparral · thicket · copse · boscage

timberland · trees · bush · plantation · jungle · rain forest · pinewood · greenwood · taiga · boreal forest · Carolinian forest · Acadian forest

[Lewis]

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Where does copse land?

No idea, it's a word I know but not that I use.

Post by Horace LaBadie
people, group, crowd, mob

Group doesn't mean a group of people, but people, crowd, mob are a good
example.

[GordonD]

Post by Lewis

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same
thing, more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very
different meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish
collection of trees, or a large collection of impermanent trees
(The home store has thousands of tress for sale); woods means a
relatively small and possibly bounded area of trees (The Hundred
Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from something larger
than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words
like this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't
the same thing.

Where does copse land?

No idea, it's a word I know but not that I use.

Post by Horace LaBadie
people, group, crowd, mob

Group doesn't mean a group of people, but people, crowd, mob are a
good example.

I'd disagree with that. To me, a mob isn't just a large crowd; there are
implications of unruly behaviour and can be a group of as few as twenty
or thirty people. Whereas you can get a crowd of a hundred thousand at a
major sporting event.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Clearing, meadow, prairie? (In Colorado, "park" might be in there
somewhere.)

Short story, novelette, novella, novel? (Mostly in SF.)

Knife, dagger, sword?

Boat, ship, ocean liner?

[Whiskers]

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

In England, 'forest' doesn't imply or require the presence of any trees
(although colloquially it usually does). In Norman law, a forest was a
royal hunting preserve - hence 'The Forest of Dartmoor', 'The New
Forest', etc. Dartmoor is notable for its general lack of trees (apart
from some woods and commercial conifer plantations).

The phrase 'Black Forest' usually implies 'gateau', in the form of a
sticky chocolate cake.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Whiskers

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

In England, 'forest' doesn't imply or require the presence of any trees
(although colloquially it usually does). In Norman law, a forest was a
royal hunting preserve - hence 'The Forest of Dartmoor', 'The New
Forest', etc. Dartmoor is notable for its general lack of trees (apart
from some woods and commercial conifer plantations).
The phrase 'Black Forest' usually implies 'gateau', in the form of a
sticky chocolate cake.

Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte.
(or Dutch, 'een Schwarzwalder Kersentaart')
Why go to French for something manifestly German?

Jan

[Whiskers]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Whiskers

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

In England, 'forest' doesn't imply or require the presence of any trees
(although colloquially it usually does). In Norman law, a forest was a
royal hunting preserve - hence 'The Forest of Dartmoor', 'The New
Forest', etc. Dartmoor is notable for its general lack of trees (apart
from some woods and commercial conifer plantations).
The phrase 'Black Forest' usually implies 'gateau', in the form of a
sticky chocolate cake.

Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte.
(or Dutch, 'een Schwarzwalder Kersentaart')
Why go to French for something manifestly German?
Jan

Because French is posh but German is merely foreign? All The Best Cooks
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Whiskers

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Whiskers

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

In England, 'forest' doesn't imply or require the presence of any trees
(although colloquially it usually does). In Norman law, a forest was a
royal hunting preserve - hence 'The Forest of Dartmoor', 'The New
Forest', etc. Dartmoor is notable for its general lack of trees (apart
from some woods and commercial conifer plantations).
The phrase 'Black Forest' usually implies 'gateau', in the form of a
sticky chocolate cake.

Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte.
(or Dutch, 'een Schwarzwalder Kersentaart')
Why go to French for something manifestly German?
Jan

Because French is posh but German is merely foreign? All The Best Cooks
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?

It's regular chocolate cake, with a thick layer of mocha filling between two of
the layers, and some other sorts of filling in other layers, with white frosting,
decorated with shaved bitter chocolate, and cherries. Both on top and,
possibly, incorporated into the cake batter and filling layers.

[charles]

Post by Whiskers

Post by Whiskers

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same
thing, more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very
different meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish
collection of trees, or a large collection of impermanent trees
(The home store has thousands of tress for sale); woods means a
relatively small and possibly bounded area of trees (The Hundred
Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from something larger
than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words
like this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the
same thing.

In England, 'forest' doesn't imply or require the presence of any
trees (although colloquially it usually does). In Norman law, a
forest was a royal hunting preserve - hence 'The Forest of
Dartmoor', 'The New Forest', etc. Dartmoor is notable for its
general lack of trees (apart from some woods and commercial conifer
plantations).
The phrase 'Black Forest' usually implies 'gateau', in the form of a
sticky chocolate cake.

Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte. (or Dutch, 'een Schwarzwalder
Kersentaart') Why go to French for something manifestly German?
Jan

Because French is posh but German is merely foreign? All The Best
Cooks were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a
strange relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here
by a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

On a trip to South Africa a few years we were taken to a "Genuine Zulu
village". After seeing some rather bad acting by people trying to use old
fashioned tools, we were offered a "genuine Zulu meal". While the main
couse was some scraps of meat, the second course was Black Forest gateau".
So, it didn't get invented by a French Chef, but in Zulu South Africa.

[Snip]

[Peter T. Daniels]

[nothing that is quoted below]

Post by charles

Post by Whiskers

Post by Whiskers

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same
thing, more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very
different meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish
collection of trees, or a large collection of impermanent trees
(The home store has thousands of tress for sale); woods means a
relatively small and possibly bounded area of trees (The Hundred
Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from something larger
than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words
like this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the
same thing.

In England, 'forest' doesn't imply or require the presence of any
trees (although colloquially it usually does). In Norman law, a
forest was a royal hunting preserve - hence 'The Forest of
Dartmoor', 'The New Forest', etc. Dartmoor is notable for its
general lack of trees (apart from some woods and commercial conifer
plantations).
The phrase 'Black Forest' usually implies 'gateau', in the form of a
sticky chocolate cake.

Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte. (or Dutch, 'een Schwarzwalder
Kersentaart') Why go to French for something manifestly German?

Because French is posh but German is merely foreign? All The Best
Cooks were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a
strange relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here
by a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

On a trip to South Africa a few years we were taken to a "Genuine Zulu
village". After seeing some rather bad acting by people trying to use old
fashioned tools, we were offered a "genuine Zulu meal". While the main
couse was some scraps of meat, the second course was Black Forest gateau".
So, it didn't get invented by a French Chef, but in Zulu South Africa.
[Snip]

[Whiskers]

Post by charles

Post by Whiskers

Post by Whiskers

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same
thing, more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very
different meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish
collection of trees, or a large collection of impermanent trees
(The home store has thousands of tress for sale); woods means a
relatively small and possibly bounded area of trees (The Hundred
Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from something larger
than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words
like this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the
same thing.

In England, 'forest' doesn't imply or require the presence of any
trees (although colloquially it usually does). In Norman law, a
forest was a royal hunting preserve - hence 'The Forest of
Dartmoor', 'The New Forest', etc. Dartmoor is notable for its
general lack of trees (apart from some woods and commercial conifer
plantations).
The phrase 'Black Forest' usually implies 'gateau', in the form of a
sticky chocolate cake.

Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte. (or Dutch, 'een Schwarzwalder
Kersentaart') Why go to French for something manifestly German?
Jan

Because French is posh but German is merely foreign? All The Best
Cooks were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a
strange relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here
by a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

On a trip to South Africa a few years we were taken to a "Genuine Zulu
village". After seeing some rather bad acting by people trying to use old
fashioned tools, we were offered a "genuine Zulu meal". While the main
couse was some scraps of meat, the second course was Black Forest gateau".
So, it didn't get invented by a French Chef, but in Zulu South Africa.
[Snip]

But he had to pretend to be French to be accepted in Victorian London.

[Janet]

Subject: Re: Trees, Woods, Forest
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?

Strawberry gateau. Gâteau St Honoré.

There are countless other French cookery words commonly used by English
speakers (madeleines, choux, meringue,biscuit).

If you go for a full blow-out English afternoon tea you can bet the
gateaux and patisserie will be terrific.


Janet.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Trees, Woods, Forest
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?

Strawberry gateau. Gâteau St Honoré.
There are countless other French cookery words commonly used by English
speakers (madeleines, choux, meringue,biscuit).

It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

Post by Janet
If you go for a full blow-out English afternoon tea you can bet the
gateaux and patisserie will be terrific.

No, I wouldn't lay money on that.

[Janet]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Trees, Woods, Forest
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?

Strawberry gateau. Gâteau St Honoré.
There are countless other French cookery words commonly used by English
speakers (madeleines, choux, meringue,biscuit).

It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

We use all three. On Wednesday, my husband's Victoria sponge cake
will probably win first prize at the island produce show (again).

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet
If you go for a full blow-out English afternoon tea you can bet the
gateaux and patisserie will be terrific.

No, I wouldn't lay money on that.

You probably couldn't afford it and haven't got the skills to make
your own.

Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Trees, Woods, Forest
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?

Strawberry gateau. Gâteau St Honoré.
There are countless other French cookery words commonly used by English
speakers (madeleines, choux, meringue,biscuit).

It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

We use all three. On Wednesday, my husband's Victoria sponge cake
will probably win first prize at the island produce show (again).

"Sponge cake" is perfectly fine, but not "sponge" by itself as used by that Mary
Bary Berry Barry person. Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet
If you go for a full blow-out English afternoon tea you can bet

the

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet
gateaux and patisserie will be terrific.

No, I wouldn't lay money on that.

You probably couldn't afford it and haven't got the skills to make
your own.

What kind of skill does it take to make a bet?

[LFS]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Trees, Woods, Forest
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?

Strawberry gateau. Gâteau St Honoré.
There are countless other French cookery words commonly used by English
speakers (madeleines, choux, meringue,biscuit).

It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

We use all three. On Wednesday, my husband's Victoria sponge cake
will probably win first prize at the island produce show (again).

"Sponge cake" is perfectly fine, but not "sponge" by itself as used by that Mary
Bary Berry Barry person. Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

The Passover version is called plava: I have never heard it referred it
as sponge or sponge cake. In the UK, tea-time sponge is made with flour.

[Dingbat]

Post by LFS

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

The Passover version is called plava: I have never heard it referred it
as sponge or sponge cake. In the UK, tea-time sponge is made with flour.

... whereas plava is made with "matzo meal"?

(That's in one of the recipes here)
https://www.google.com/search?q=sponge+cake+plava

The matzo wiki says:
<<Matzo meal can be used like flour during the week of Passover>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matzo

[Janet]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.

Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

[Peter Young]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

Peter.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

He means, I think, that something he calls "sponge cake" is called
"plava" by the people in England - Jews - who eat that thing.

As so often, he deliberately worded it to mislead.

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

He means, I think, that something he calls "sponge cake" is called
"plava" by the people in England - Jews - who eat that thing.
As so often, he deliberately worded it to mislead.

No; he deliberately worded it so as to build on the previous contributions to the thread.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

Have you ever been to a Seder?

In Laura's Jewish part.

There'd be no reason for sponge cake to exist anywhere else (see Jerry's explanation).

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 10:59:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

Have you ever been to a Seder?
In Laura's Jewish part.
There'd be no reason for sponge cake to exist anywhere else (see Jerry's explanation).

Sponge cake as known in BrE is everywhere in Brit-land. It has nothing
to do with Jewish cuisine.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 10:59:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

Have you ever been to a Seder?
In Laura's Jewish part.
There'd be no reason for sponge cake to exist anywhere else (see Jerry's explanation).

Sponge cake as known in BrE is everywhere in Brit-land. It has nothing
to do with Jewish cuisine.

What you call "sponge cake" is simply "cake." And when you call it "sponge" --
well, that's disgusting.

[Janet]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 10:59:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

Have you ever been to a Seder?
In Laura's Jewish part.
There'd be no reason for sponge cake to exist anywhere else (see Jerry's explanation).

Sponge cake as known in BrE is everywhere in Brit-land.

And Europe

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
It has nothing
to do with Jewish cuisine.

+ multimillions

Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Janet

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 10:59:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

Have you ever been to a Seder?
In Laura's Jewish part.
There'd be no reason for sponge cake to exist anywhere else (see Jerry's explanation).

Sponge cake as known in BrE is everywhere in Brit-land.

And Europe

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
It has nothing
to do with Jewish cuisine.

+ multimillions

Apparently you still have not grasped that British English is not the sole, and
is certainly not the ruling, form of English.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 7 Aug 2017 07:23:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 10:59:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

Have you ever been to a Seder?
In Laura's Jewish part.
There'd be no reason for sponge cake to exist anywhere else (see Jerry's explanation).

Sponge cake as known in BrE is everywhere in Brit-land.

And Europe

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
It has nothing
to do with Jewish cuisine.

+ multimillions

Apparently you still have not grasped that British English is not the sole, and
is certainly not the ruling, form of English.

I think we have. When AmE differs from BrEtcE in the meanings and usage
of words and phrases the two stand side by side. AmE does not trump BrE
except in an AmE context, and BrEtcE does not trump AmE except in a
BrEtcE context.

Neither is the ruling form of English except in local contexts.

[Peter Young]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

Have you ever been to a Seder?

Yes.

Peter.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

Have you ever been to a Seder?

Yes.

And what did they call the confection in question?

[Peter Young]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Young

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

In what part of England? Not here. Not ever.

Have you ever been to a Seder?

Yes.

And what did they call the confection in question?

They didn't have anything like that.

Peter.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 07:03:25 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

Not sponge cake in general. There are many sponge cakes that are not
"Plava".

There is "Passover sponge cake (Plava)"
http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/4525/passover-sponge-cake--plava-.aspx

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 07:03:25 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Context is everything, Miss Janet.
Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

Not sponge cake in general. There are many sponge cakes that are not
"Plava".

You must be referring to what _you_ think of as "sponge cake," which by definition
cannot be plava.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
There is "Passover sponge cake (Plava)"
http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/4525/passover-sponge-cake--plava-.aspx

[Jack Campin]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

"sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it can be served during
Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

Not sponge cake in general. There are many sponge cakes that are
not "Plava".

You must be referring to what _you_ think of as "sponge cake," which
by definition cannot be plava.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
There is "Passover sponge cake (Plava)"
http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/4525/passover-sponge-cake--plava-.aspx

I hadn't heard of plava before, though I suppose I must have eaten it
with Jewish friends at some point without knowing what Americans call it.
Sponge cake, as I grew up with it, was neither leavened nor Jewish.
One of the commoner variants was "Victoria sandwich", this kind of thing:

http://recipevintage.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/victoria-sandwich-1960s-marguerite.html

My mother's had none of the fancy decoration and the filling was usually
plum jam.

"Plava" is not a very likely word to catch on the UK for a sweet dish,
since everybody would think you meant "pavlova".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

"sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it can be served during
Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

Apparently sponge cake is called "plava" in England.

Not sponge cake in general. There are many sponge cakes that are
not "Plava".

You must be referring to what _you_ think of as "sponge cake," which
by definition cannot be plava.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
There is "Passover sponge cake (Plava)"
http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/4525/passover-sponge-cake--plava-.aspx

I hadn't heard of plava before, though I suppose I must have eaten it
with Jewish friends at some point without knowing what Americans call it.
Sponge cake, as I grew up with it, was neither leavened nor Jewish.
http://recipevintage.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/victoria-sandwich-1960s-marguerite.html
My mother's had none of the fancy decoration and the filling was usually
plum jam.
"Plava" is not a very likely word to catch on the UK for a sweet dish,
since everybody would think you meant "pavlova".

Or "making it is such a palaver".

Post by Jack Campin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

What we call sponge cake is made with beaten egg white. For Passover,
beaten egg white is allowed but yeast and baking powder are not. I see
that on-line recipes for American sponge cake do have some baking
powder, somewhat to my surprise, but Passover versions do not.

https://www.thespicehouse.com/recipes/passover-sponge-cake-recipe

[LFS]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

How? Sponge cake requires liquid to wet leavened flour which rises.

What we call sponge cake is made with beaten egg white. For Passover,
beaten egg white is allowed but yeast and baking powder are not. I see
that on-line recipes for American sponge cake do have some baking
powder, somewhat to my surprise, but Passover versions do not.
https://www.thespicehouse.com/recipes/passover-sponge-cake-recipe

You can get Passover baking powder which has always seemed very odd to
me. I've never used it.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Dingbat

Post by LFS

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

The Passover version is called plava: I have never heard it referred it
as sponge or sponge cake. In the UK, tea-time sponge is made with flour.

... whereas plava is made with "matzo meal"?
(That's in one of the recipes here)
https://www.google.com/search?q=sponge+cake+plava
<<Matzo meal can be used like flour during the week of Passover>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matzo

Yes, with some adjustments, and the result isn't necessarily good.

[Jerry Friedman]

,,,

Post by LFS

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

We use all three. On Wednesday, my husband's Victoria sponge cake
will probably win first prize at the island produce show (again).

"Sponge cake" is perfectly fine, but not "sponge" by itself as used by that Mary
Bary Berry Barry person. Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

The Passover version is called plava: I have never heard it referred it
as sponge or sponge cake.

Always "sponge cake" in my youth. I've never heard "plava".

Post by LFS
In the UK, tea-time sponge is made with flour.

And in the U.S., non-Pesadik sponge cake is made with flour (and no
leavening).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by LFS

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Trees, Woods, Forest
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

Post by Whiskers
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?

Strawberry gateau. Gâteau St Honoré.
There are countless other French cookery words commonly used by English
speakers (madeleines, choux, meringue,biscuit).

It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

We use all three. On Wednesday, my husband's Victoria sponge cake
will probably win first prize at the island produce show (again).

"Sponge cake" is perfectly fine, but not "sponge" by itself as used by that Mary
Bary Berry Barry person. Of course "sponge cake" is rather unusual, since it
can be served during Passover and thus contains no leavening.

The Passover version is called plava: I have never heard it referred it
as sponge or sponge cake. In the UK, tea-time sponge is made with flour.

I (fortunately) never encountered it anywhere but at Seders, but it wasn't called plava.
That looks like a Slavic-origin word?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Trees, Woods, Forest
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?

Strawberry gateau. Gâteau St Honoré.
There are countless other French cookery words commonly used by English
speakers (madeleines, choux, meringue,biscuit).

It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

In BrE "gateau" is used for specific items. It is not a generic
alternative for "cake" or "sponge".

The supermarket I use has five "gateau" products on its website. Three
are its own brand:

Double Chocolate Gateau Dessert
Blackforest Gateau Dessert
Triple Chocolate Gateau Dessert

and:

Cadbury Chocolate Swiss Gateau

then there is:

Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry

The comment from the manufacturer is:

We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.

It is made by a small family business:

Montezuma's Chocolates,
West Sussex,
U.K.

The name Montezuma's originates from when the owners Helen and Simon
fell in love and went travelling in South America. They "Camped on a
cocoa plantation, ate lots of amazing chocolate, and then had an
idea..."

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet
If you go for a full blow-out English afternoon tea you can bet the
gateaux and patisserie will be terrific.

No, I wouldn't lay money on that.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

In BrE "gateau" is used for specific items. It is not a generic
alternative for "cake" or "sponge".
The supermarket I use has five "gateau" products on its website. Three
Double Chocolate Gateau Dessert
Blackforest Gateau Dessert
Triple Chocolate Gateau Dessert

"Gateau Dessert"??

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Cadbury Chocolate Swiss Gateau
Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry

What does Montezuma have to do with anything? What is it, pudding or gateau?

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.

The only way to get cake into pudding is with a blender.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Montezuma's Chocolates,
West Sussex,
U.K.
The name Montezuma's originates from when the owners Helen and Simon
fell in love and went travelling in South America. They "Camped on a
cocoa plantation, ate lots of amazing chocolate, and then had an
idea..."

Same question. What does Montezuma have to do with South America?

[charles]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French
word for a specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is
simply a French name, so not a similar example.) But do you use
"gateau" as a generic, or do you say "cake" like normal people or
"sponge" like misguided people?

In BrE "gateau" is used for specific items. It is not a generic
alternative for "cake" or "sponge".
The supermarket I use has five "gateau" products on its website. Three
Double Chocolate Gateau Dessert Blackforest Gateau Dessert Triple
Chocolate Gateau Dessert

"Gateau Dessert"??

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Cadbury Chocolate Swiss Gateau
Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry

What does Montezuma have to do with anything? What is it, pudding or gateau?

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.

The only way to get cake into pudding is with a blender.

How about trifle?

[Snip]

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by charles

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French
word for a specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is
simply a French name, so not a similar example.) But do you use
"gateau" as a generic, or do you say "cake" like normal people or
"sponge" like misguided people?

In BrE "gateau" is used for specific items. It is not a generic
alternative for "cake" or "sponge".
The supermarket I use has five "gateau" products on its website. Three
Double Chocolate Gateau Dessert Blackforest Gateau Dessert Triple
Chocolate Gateau Dessert

"Gateau Dessert"??

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Cadbury Chocolate Swiss Gateau
Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry

What does Montezuma have to do with anything? What is it, pudding or gateau?

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.

The only way to get cake into pudding is with a blender.

How about trifle?

I learned about that from a Canadian fellow graduate student. His may not have
been Traditional. I think there were layers of squishy stuff in a large glass
bowl. And doused with a very great deal of some unpleasant alcoholic beverage.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by charles
How about trifle?

You know my method Watson - it is founded upon the observation of trifles.

-- Richard

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 11:53:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

In BrE "gateau" is used for specific items. It is not a generic
alternative for "cake" or "sponge".
The supermarket I use has five "gateau" products on its website. Three
Double Chocolate Gateau Dessert
Blackforest Gateau Dessert
Triple Chocolate Gateau Dessert

"Gateau Dessert"??

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Cadbury Chocolate Swiss Gateau
Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry

What does Montezuma have to do with anything? What is it, pudding or gateau?

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.

The only way to get cake into pudding is with a blender.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Montezuma's Chocolates,
West Sussex,
U.K.
The name Montezuma's originates from when the owners Helen and Simon
fell in love and went travelling in South America. They "Camped on a
cocoa plantation, ate lots of amazing chocolate, and then had an
idea..."

Same question. What does Montezuma have to do with South America?

There are lots of cocoa planations in South America. There is a
municipality named Montezuma in Brazil. I think that is unlikely to be
the origin of the company name. I'd guess that the founders researched
the origins of coffee and learned about the Aztec ruler Montezuma and
the fact that he had presented the explorer Cortez with a large load of
cocoa beans from a vast cacao plantation.[1]

So their interest in coffee was created in South America but they named
the company after someone coffee-connected from further North.

[1] http://www.medicinehunter.com/brief-history-cocoa

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 11:53:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

In BrE "gateau" is used for specific items. It is not a generic
alternative for "cake" or "sponge".
The supermarket I use has five "gateau" products on its website. Three
Double Chocolate Gateau Dessert
Blackforest Gateau Dessert
Triple Chocolate Gateau Dessert

"Gateau Dessert"??

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Cadbury Chocolate Swiss Gateau
Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry

What does Montezuma have to do with anything? What is it, pudding or gateau?

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.

The only way to get cake into pudding is with a blender.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Montezuma's Chocolates,
West Sussex,
U.K.
The name Montezuma's originates from when the owners Helen and Simon
fell in love and went travelling in South America. They "Camped on a
cocoa plantation, ate lots of amazing chocolate, and then had an
idea..."

Same question. What does Montezuma have to do with South America?

There are lots of cocoa planations in South America. There is a
municipality named Montezuma in Brazil. I think that is unlikely to be
the origin of the company name. I'd guess that the founders researched
the origins of coffee and learned about the Aztec ruler Montezuma and
the fact that he had presented the explorer Cortez with a large load of
cocoa beans from a vast cacao plantation.[1]
So their interest in coffee was created in South America but they named
the company after someone coffee-connected from further North.
[1] http://www.medicinehunter.com/brief-history-cocoa

"Cocoa" isn't "coffee." [That may have been your thinko.]

The coffee plant seems to have originated in Ethiopia.

But Montezuma's (recte Moctezuma) principal association isn't with chocolate;
and the principal association of chocolate is with Mayans rather than Aztecs
(though it is an Aztec word, presumably because it was through them that the
Spanish first encountered it).

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 20:15:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 11:53:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

In BrE "gateau" is used for specific items. It is not a generic
alternative for "cake" or "sponge".
The supermarket I use has five "gateau" products on its website. Three
Double Chocolate Gateau Dessert
Blackforest Gateau Dessert
Triple Chocolate Gateau Dessert

"Gateau Dessert"??

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Cadbury Chocolate Swiss Gateau
Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry

What does Montezuma have to do with anything? What is it, pudding or gateau?

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.

The only way to get cake into pudding is with a blender.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Montezuma's Chocolates,
West Sussex,
U.K.
The name Montezuma's originates from when the owners Helen and Simon
fell in love and went travelling in South America. They "Camped on a
cocoa plantation, ate lots of amazing chocolate, and then had an
idea..."

Same question. What does Montezuma have to do with South America?

There are lots of cocoa planations in South America. There is a
municipality named Montezuma in Brazil. I think that is unlikely to be
the origin of the company name. I'd guess that the founders researched
the origins of coffee and learned about the Aztec ruler Montezuma and
the fact that he had presented the explorer Cortez with a large load of
cocoa beans from a vast cacao plantation.[1]
So their interest in coffee was created in South America but they named
the company after someone coffee-connected from further North.
[1] http://www.medicinehunter.com/brief-history-cocoa

"Cocoa" isn't "coffee." [That may have been your thinko.]

Yes. My thinko. "coffee-connected" should be "cocoa-connected".

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The coffee plant seems to have originated in Ethiopia.
But Montezuma's (recte Moctezuma) principal association isn't with chocolate;
and the principal association of chocolate is with Mayans rather than Aztecs
(though it is an Aztec word, presumably because it was through them that the
Spanish first encountered it).

However, according to the webpage above ([1]) The European first
encounter with cocoa was when Columbus met an Aztec chief:

The Aztec chief offered to exchange some of the cocoa beans for
goods aboard the ship, and this perplexed Columbus and crew. To
demonstrate the value of cocoa, the chief had some cocoa beverage
prepared by his servants. ... Columbus found the beverage bitter,
spicy, and not altogether pleasant, and was not especially
impressed. Though the Aztecs appeared to place high value on cocoa
beans, Columbus and crew did not. ... Columbus reputedly brought
some beans back to the Spanish royal court along with numerous other
treasures. But neither Columbus nor any of his crew members
appreciated the significance of cocoa, or grasped its high place in
Mesoamerican society. As a result, cocoa received only fleeting
attention in the Spanish court. The real discovery of the value of
cacao was left to a subsequent and infinitely more shrewd explorer.

In 1519, the ambitious 34 year old explorer Hernan Cortez landed at
Tabasco on Mexico’s Gulf Of Campeche. He and his crew marched on the
Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan, where they were greeted by the Aztec
ruler Montezuma. To ensure that his crew came along on the march and
did not desert, Cortez had his vessels burned. Upon the arrival of
Cortez and crew, Montezuma mistook Cortez for the legendary
king-turned-deity Quetzalcoatl, also known as the “feathered
serpent,” and presented Cortez with a large load of cocoa beans from
a vast cacao plantation.
...
Unlike Columbus, Cortez readily estimated the great value of the
cocoa bean.

So Montezuma was instrumental in introducing cocoa to Europeans as
something of value. Not that that was his intention.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 20:15:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 11:53:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It looks like "Black Forest gateau" is a one-off use of the French word for a
specific item, and then you name one more. (The other is simply a French name,
so not a similar example.) But do you use "gateau" as a generic, or do you say
"cake" like normal people or "sponge" like misguided people?

In BrE "gateau" is used for specific items. It is not a generic
alternative for "cake" or "sponge".
The supermarket I use has five "gateau" products on its website. Three
Double Chocolate Gateau Dessert
Blackforest Gateau Dessert
Triple Chocolate Gateau Dessert

"Gateau Dessert"??

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Cadbury Chocolate Swiss Gateau
Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry

What does Montezuma have to do with anything? What is it, pudding or gateau?

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.

The only way to get cake into pudding is with a blender.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Montezuma's Chocolates,
West Sussex,
U.K.
The name Montezuma's originates from when the owners Helen and Simon
fell in love and went travelling in South America. They "Camped on a
cocoa plantation, ate lots of amazing chocolate, and then had an
idea..."

Same question. What does Montezuma have to do with South America?

There are lots of cocoa planations in South America. There is a
municipality named Montezuma in Brazil. I think that is unlikely to be
the origin of the company name. I'd guess that the founders researched
the origins of coffee and learned about the Aztec ruler Montezuma and
the fact that he had presented the explorer Cortez with a large load of
cocoa beans from a vast cacao plantation.[1]
So their interest in coffee was created in South America but they named
the company after someone coffee-connected from further North.
[1] http://www.medicinehunter.com/brief-history-cocoa

"Cocoa" isn't "coffee." [That may have been your thinko.]

Yes. My thinko. "coffee-connected" should be "cocoa-connected".

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The coffee plant seems to have originated in Ethiopia.
But Montezuma's (recte Moctezuma) principal association isn't with chocolate;
and the principal association of chocolate is with Mayans rather than Aztecs
(though it is an Aztec word, presumably because it was through them that the
Spanish first encountered it).

However, according to the webpage above ([1]) The European first

That doesn't sound right: Columbus didn't penetrate the Gulf of Mexico, did he?

Of course not! The first bit of mainland he touched, on the Third Voyage, was in Venezuela.
The Fourth Voyage visited Honduras down to Panama.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Viajes_de_colon_en.svg

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The Aztec chief offered to exchange some of the cocoa beans for
goods aboard the ship, and this perplexed Columbus and crew. To
demonstrate the value of cocoa, the chief had some cocoa beverage
prepared by his servants. ... Columbus found the beverage bitter,
spicy, and not altogether pleasant, and was not especially
impressed. Though the Aztecs appeared to place high value on cocoa
beans, Columbus and crew did not. ... Columbus reputedly brought
some beans back to the Spanish royal court along with numerous other
treasures. But neither Columbus nor any of his crew members
appreciated the significance of cocoa, or grasped its high place in
Mesoamerican society. As a result, cocoa received only fleeting
attention in the Spanish court. The real discovery of the value of
cacao was left to a subsequent and infinitely more shrewd explorer.
In 1519, the ambitious 34 year old explorer Hernan Cortez landed at
Tabasco on Mexico’s Gulf Of Campeche. He and his crew marched on the
Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan, where they were greeted by the Aztec
ruler Montezuma. To ensure that his crew came along on the march and
did not desert, Cortez had his vessels burned. Upon the arrival of
Cortez and crew, Montezuma mistook Cortez for the legendary
king-turned-deity Quetzalcoatl, also known as the “feathered
serpent,” and presented Cortez with a large load of cocoa beans from
a vast cacao plantation.
...
Unlike Columbus, Cortez readily estimated the great value of the
cocoa bean.

Maybe he knew about sugar.

Just about the only surviving secular Mayan inscriptions besides the four astronomical
codices are on bitter-coffee cups.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
So Montezuma was instrumental in introducing cocoa to Europeans as
something of value. Not that that was his intention.

Sure it was, since he tried to appease them with something that he valued.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry
We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.
Montezuma's Chocolates,
West Sussex,
U.K.
The name Montezuma's originates from when the owners Helen and Simon
fell in love and went travelling in South America. They "Camped on a
cocoa plantation, ate lots of amazing chocolate, and then had an
idea..."

Does the name have positive connotations for British customers? When I
hear "Montezuma", the phrase that immediately jumps to mind is
"Montezuma's Revenge"; not something I'd like to have associated with food.

[RH Draney]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The name Montezuma's originates from when the owners Helen and Simon
fell in love and went travelling in South America. They "Camped on a
cocoa plantation, ate lots of amazing chocolate, and then had an
idea..."

Does the name have positive connotations for British customers? When I
hear "Montezuma", the phrase that immediately jumps to mind is
"Montezuma's Revenge"; not something I'd like to have associated with food.

...and in the words of Montezuma, will someone please tell those Marines
to stop singing in the halls?...r

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry
We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.
Montezuma's Chocolates,
West Sussex,
U.K.
The name Montezuma's originates from when the owners Helen and Simon
fell in love and went travelling in South America. They "Camped on a
cocoa plantation, ate lots of amazing chocolate, and then had an
idea..."

Does the name have positive connotations for British customers? When I
hear "Montezuma", the phrase that immediately jumps to mind is
"Montezuma's Revenge"; not something I'd like to have associated with food.

I always hear a line of poetry from my distant youth -
Montezume met a puma
and my mind always adds
Going through the Rye.
I am unable to believe my memory is accurate about this.

I stopped and googled and lo and behold

Montezuma met a puma,
Coming through the rye.
Montezuma baked the puma
In an apple pie.

There are many more verses. It was written by an English
academic named D. F. Alterson and first published May 15,
1895. My childhood memory was right!

[Richard Heathfield]

On 06/08/17 05:47, David Kleinecke wrote:

<snip>

Post by David Kleinecke
I always hear a line of poetry from my distant youth -
Montezume met a puma
and my mind always adds
Going through the Rye.
I am unable to believe my memory is accurate about this.
I stopped and googled and lo and behold
Montezuma met a puma,
Coming through the rye.
[...] My childhood memory was right!

You mean the puma didn't know whether it was coming or going?

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by David Kleinecke
I always hear a line of poetry from my distant youth -
Montezume met a puma
and my mind always adds
Going through the Rye.
I am unable to believe my memory is accurate about this.
I stopped and googled and lo and behold
Montezuma met a puma,
Coming through the rye.
[...] My childhood memory was right!

You mean the puma didn't know whether it was coming or going?

I remembered "going" and not "coming". I, of course, knew
the Burns poem and in the sung version always sung "coming".
But what can one do about erroneous childhood memories?

That was eighty years ago and I imagined the poem went on
Montezuma asked the puma
What was the reason why
which I now assume I then made up.

I am biased in favor of pumas and doubtless felt the wrong
one ended up with the apples.

[Richard Heathfield]

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by David Kleinecke
I always hear a line of poetry from my distant youth -
Montezume met a puma
and my mind always adds
Going through the Rye.
I am unable to believe my memory is accurate about this.
I stopped and googled and lo and behold
Montezuma met a puma,
Coming through the rye.
[...] My childhood memory was right!

You mean the puma didn't know whether it was coming or going?

I remembered "going" and not "coming". I, of course, knew
the Burns poem and in the sung version always sung "coming".
But what can one do about erroneous childhood memories?

Yes, it's difficult, isn't it?

"Her Majesty's Government is not /entirely/ convinced that this would
make London a safer place." Thus quoth Sir Humphrey - or so, at least, I
thought he quoth - to the French Ambassador.

But reality (or the literary equivalent thereof) is a hard task-master,
and it is unquestionably the case that Sir Humphrey actually said "not
/completely/ convinced". I know this for a fact. I've watched the
episode at least a dozen times. And Sir Humphrey gets the line wrong
/every single time/! I keep expecting him to say "entirely" and he keeps
saying "completely".

The trouble is that, even though I know my memory is absolutely perfect,
all too often it turns out not to be.

Alzheimer's. It's the only possible explanation.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Montezuma's Great British Black Forest Gateau Pudding Dark Chocolate
with Cherry
We would be wrong to try to pass off this pudding as a British
creation as it is very much of German origin but since the 1970s we
have enjoyed an Anglicised form on many a pudding trolley. Lashings
of whipped cream, dark chocolate cake and of course cherries made
this a dessert to die for. This is our very chocolatey and subtle
interpretation of this wonderful pudding.
Montezuma's Chocolates,
West Sussex,
U.K.
The name Montezuma's originates from when the owners Helen and Simon
fell in love and went travelling in South America. They "Camped on a
cocoa plantation, ate lots of amazing chocolate, and then had an
idea..."

Does the name have positive connotations for British customers? When I
hear "Montezuma", the phrase that immediately jumps to mind is
"Montezuma's Revenge"; not something I'd like to have associated with food.

I always hear a line of poetry from my distant youth -
Montezume met a puma
and my mind always adds
Going through the Rye.
I am unable to believe my memory is accurate about this.
I stopped and googled and lo and behold
Montezuma met a puma,
Coming through the rye.
Montezuma baked the puma
In an apple pie.
There are many more verses. It was written by an English
academic named D. F. Alterson and first published May 15,
1895. My childhood memory was right!

I assume that you know about the Burns poem "Coming through the rye".

When looking this up to check that I had the words right, I got two
surprises. The first is that searching for those words turns up mostly
movie reviews. The second is that it turned out I knew only a couple of
the verses of something that was longer than I thought.

If I may quote Allan Sherman,

Do not make a stingy sandwich
Pile the cold cuts high
Customers should see salami
Coming through the rye.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Trees, Woods, Forest
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?

Strawberry gateau. Gâteau St Honoré.

You have the cerise sur le gateau also?

Post by Janet
There are countless other French cookery words commonly used by English
speakers (madeleines, choux, meringue,biscuit).

Some amusement can be derived from watching Masterchef and the like.
More fun than Mrs. Bucket's French.
At least she pronounces Bouquet correctly.

They have developed a pseudo-French entirely of their own
which they don't really know how to pronounce.
Some words have become standardised, like pjuree,
but for others they still struggle,
and pronunciation varies.
Following what they are saying involves some guesswork,
translating to French and back
using the usual English garbling rules.

Post by Janet
If you go for a full blow-out English afternoon tea you can bet the
gateaux and patisserie will be terrific.

Always a pleasure, and not completely unknown on the continent,

Jan

[Isabelle]

Post by J. J. Lodder
Some amusement can be derived from watching Masterchef and the like.
More fun than Mrs. Bucket's French.
At least she pronounces Bouquet correctly.
They have developed a pseudo-French entirely of their own
which they don't really know how to pronounce.
Some words have become standardised, like pjuree,
but for others they still struggle,
and pronunciation varies.
Following what they are saying involves some guesswork,
translating to French and back
using the usual English garbling rules.

I remember being totally flummoxed by something called "twills" on a
British cooking show, until I realized it was what I call "tuiles".

Of course, [ɥi] is not the easiest of sounds for English-speakers to
pronounce.

Other culprits are "génoise", [ʒenwaz] in regular French, but [ʒenɔiz]
on British pastry shows, and "crème pâtissière", usually "crème pat" for
English-speakers.

French television has a pastry show called "Le meilleur pâtissier",
which is actually part of the Great British Bake Off franchise, and
which I find really inferior to the original. I can't understand it. Why
can't French TV produce original food programs anymore ?

A recipe for crêpes from the golden age of French television, with
pastis, rum, and lots and lots of beer:

Never tried them myself...

[musika]

Post by Isabelle
I remember being totally flummoxed by something called "twills" on a
British cooking show, until I realized it was what I call "tuiles".
Of course, [ɥi] is not the easiest of sounds for English-speakers to
pronounce.
Other culprits are "génoise", [ʒenwaz] in regular French, but [ʒenɔiz]
on British pastry shows,

That's Genoese in English, it's an Italian cake. The English name for
Genova is Genoa.

[Cheryl]

Post by musika

Post by Isabelle
I remember being totally flummoxed by something called "twills" on a
British cooking show, until I realized it was what I call "tuiles".
Of course, [ɥi] is not the easiest of sounds for English-speakers to
pronounce.
Other culprits are "génoise", [ʒenwaz] in regular French, but [ʒenɔiz]
on British pastry shows,

That's Genoese in English, it's an Italian cake. The English name for
Genova is Genoa.

But "génoise" (often without the accent) is used in English-language
cooking shows, at least on this side of the pond, and, um, not
pronounced in an authentically French way as far as I can tell.

[musika]

Post by Cheryl

Post by musika

Post by Isabelle
I remember being totally flummoxed by something called "twills" on a
British cooking show, until I realized it was what I call "tuiles".
Of course, [ɥi] is not the easiest of sounds for English-speakers to
pronounce.
Other culprits are "génoise", [ʒenwaz] in regular French, but [ʒenɔiz]
on British pastry shows,

That's Genoese in English, it's an Italian cake. The English name for
Genova is Genoa.

But "génoise" (often without the accent) is used in English-language
cooking shows, at least on this side of the pond, and, um, not
pronounced in an authentically French way as far as I can tell.

We were talking about a British cookery show.

[Cheryl]

Post by musika

Post by Cheryl

Post by musika

Post by Isabelle
I remember being totally flummoxed by something called "twills" on a
British cooking show, until I realized it was what I call "tuiles".
Of course, [ɥi] is not the easiest of sounds for English-speakers to
pronounce.
Other culprits are "génoise", [ʒenwaz] in regular French, but [ʒenɔiz]
on British pastry shows,

That's Genoese in English, it's an Italian cake. The English name for
Genova is Genoa.

But "génoise" (often without the accent) is used in English-language
cooking shows, at least on this side of the pond, and, um, not
pronounced in an authentically French way as far as I can tell.

We were talking about a British cookery show.

There's a fair bit of talent from the UK in North American cooking shows.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Cheryl

Post by musika

Post by Cheryl

Post by musika

Post by Isabelle
I remember being totally flummoxed by something called "twills" on a
British cooking show, until I realized it was what I call "tuiles".
Of course, [ɥi] is not the easiest of sounds for English-speakers to
pronounce.
Other culprits are "génoise", [ʒenwaz] in regular French, but [ʒenɔiz]
on British pastry shows,

That's Genoese in English, it's an Italian cake. The English name for
Genova is Genoa.

But "génoise" (often without the accent) is used in English-language
cooking shows, at least on this side of the pond, and, um, not
pronounced in an authentically French way as far as I can tell.

We were talking about a British cookery show.

There's a fair bit of talent from the UK in North American cooking shows.

And also Gordon Ramsey.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by musika

Post by Isabelle
I remember being totally flummoxed by something called "twills" on a
British cooking show, until I realized it was what I call "tuiles".
Of course, [ɥi] is not the easiest of sounds for English-speakers to
pronounce.

... not to mention leaving off the final consonant entirely ...

Post by musika

Post by Isabelle
Other culprits are "génoise", [ʒenwaz] in regular French, but [ʒenɔiz]
on British pastry shows,

It's a wonder they get the [ʒ].

As might be expected, American cooking shows pronounce French-origin words with
a close approximation to the French pronunciation. I wonder whether that could
be because the first significant American cooking show was Julia Child's, who
had learned and perfected her skills in Paris over some 15 years.

Post by musika
That's Genoese in English, it's an Italian cake. The English name for
Genova is Genoa.

Not to be confused with the Genovese [three syllables] Crime Family of New York.

Which is not to be confused with Kitty Genovese [four syllables], victim of a
murder that was badly reported and sensationalized by the New York Times in
1964 (but it did lead to the introduction of the 911 emergency police call system).

[LFS]

Post by Isabelle
A recipe for crêpes from the golden age of French television, with
http://youtu.be/YbxWMDdVSPY
Never tried them myself...

Wonderful! Pints and pints of alcohol, a large quantity of eggs and
butter and a small amount of flour! Must have tasted quite unusual...

[Whiskers]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Whiskers

Post by Whiskers

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same
thing, more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very
different meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish
collection of trees, or a large collection of impermanent trees
(The home store has thousands of tress for sale); woods means a
relatively small and possibly bounded area of trees (The Hundred
Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from something larger
than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words
like this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't
the same thing.

In England, 'forest' doesn't imply or require the presence of any
trees (although colloquially it usually does). In Norman law, a
forest was a royal hunting preserve - hence 'The Forest of
Dartmoor', 'The New Forest', etc. Dartmoor is notable for its
general lack of trees (apart from some woods and commercial
conifer plantations).
The phrase 'Black Forest' usually implies 'gateau', in the form of
a sticky chocolate cake.

Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte. (or Dutch, 'een
Schwarzwalder Kersentaart') Why go to French for something
manifestly German?
Jan

Because French is posh but German is merely foreign? All The Best
Cooks were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a
strange relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the
Norman Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was
introduced here by a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we
have for it. It is rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that
chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?
It's regular chocolate cake, with a thick layer of mocha filling
between two of the layers, and some other sorts of filling in other
layers, with white frosting, decorated with shaved bitter chocolate,
and cherries. Both on top and, possibly, incorporated into the cake
batter and filling layers.

Sherry brandy or other alcohol may be involved too.

Any really fancy cake, or one pretending to be, is likely to get called
a gateau unless it's traditionally called something else. An abundance
of squishy stickiness is usually to be expected. Some require cutlery
to be used, such as a 'pastry fork' or even a desert spoon.

But beware of cakes that are more like tarts or biscuits (or cookies, I
suppose). Delicious, but not what you might expect a cake to be.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Whiskers

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Whiskers

Post by Whiskers
In England, 'forest' doesn't imply or require the presence of any
trees (although colloquially it usually does). In Norman law, a
forest was a royal hunting preserve - hence 'The Forest of
Dartmoor', 'The New Forest', etc. Dartmoor is notable for its
general lack of trees (apart from some woods and commercial
conifer plantations).
The phrase 'Black Forest' usually implies 'gateau', in the form of
a sticky chocolate cake.

Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte. (or Dutch, 'een
Schwarzwalder Kersentaart') Why go to French for something
manifestly German?

Because French is posh but German is merely foreign? All The Best
Cooks were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a
strange relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the
Norman Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was
introduced here by a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we
have for it. It is rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that
chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?
It's regular chocolate cake, with a thick layer of mocha filling
between two of the layers, and some other sorts of filling in other
layers, with white frosting, decorated with shaved bitter chocolate,
and cherries. Both on top and, possibly, incorporated into the cake
batter and filling layers.

Sherry brandy or other alcohol may be involved too.
Any really fancy cake, or one pretending to be, is likely to get called
a gateau unless it's traditionally called something else. An abundance
of squishy stickiness is usually to be expected. Some require cutlery
to be used, such as a 'pastry fork' or even a desert spoon.
But beware of cakes that are more like tarts or biscuits (or cookies, I
suppose). Delicious, but not what you might expect a cake to be.

The basic ordinary "cake" (with no special name) would be a layer cake, three
layers of yellow cake (what you seem to call "sponge") with thin layers of jam
-- most likely strawberry -- between. The frosting is at the discretion of the
birthday person; white is probably the most common.

Never "gateau."

My favorite, though, was "seven-layer cake," with seven thin layers of yellow
cake, mocha cream between all, and rich shiny chocolate frosting on three sides
-- for it's made in a bar, square in cross section, rather than in a cylinder.
A portion is a slice somewhat smaller than half an inch -- I say, a measurement
for which "centimeter" is a natural choice!

I always counted the layers. If there were six, I pouted.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Whiskers

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Whiskers

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of
trees, or a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store
has thousands of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small
and possibly bounded area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and
forest can mean anything from something larger than a wood to a
vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

In England, 'forest' doesn't imply or require the presence of any trees
(although colloquially it usually does). In Norman law, a forest was a
royal hunting preserve - hence 'The Forest of Dartmoor', 'The New
Forest', etc. Dartmoor is notable for its general lack of trees (apart
from some woods and commercial conifer plantations).
The phrase 'Black Forest' usually implies 'gateau', in the form of a
sticky chocolate cake.

Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte.
(or Dutch, 'een Schwarzwalder Kersentaart')
Why go to French for something manifestly German?
Jan

Because French is posh but German is merely foreign? All The Best Cooks
were French, at one time (or pretended to be). Brits have a strange
relationship with French. Probably a side-effect of the Norman
Conquest. I expect the first Black Forest gateau was introduced here by
a French chef, hence the silly Franglais name we have for it. It is
rather nice though, if you can tolerate all that chocolate etc.

We have Black Forest cake. Do you use "gateau" for anything else?
It's regular chocolate cake, with a thick layer of mocha filling between
two of the layers, and some other sorts of filling in other layers, with
white frosting, decorated with shaved bitter chocolate, and cherries.
Both on top and, possibly, incorporated into the cake batter and filling
layers.

The real thing should have alcohol in it,
either from cherries kept on alcohol or from Kirsch, [1]
or both,

Jan

[1] Kirsch is NOT cherry brandy.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte.

_Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte_. (Sorry, Jan.)

Post by J. J. Lodder
(or Dutch, 'een Schwarzwalder Kersentaart')

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, eine Schwarzwalder Kirschentorte.

_Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte_. (Sorry, Jan.)

Post by J. J. Lodder
(or Dutch, 'een Schwarzwalder Kersentaart')

Yes, yes, I know,

Jan

[Whiskers]

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

Hamlet village town city metropolis conurbation?

[Janet]

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.

Or there's a Scottish "deer forest", thousands of treeless acres.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer_forest

Post by Lewis
I can't think of any other examples where there are three words like
this unless they are weight/size units which really isn't the same
thing.

how about hair, bristle, beard, fur, pelt.

Janet.

[Dingbat]

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.

Look into what "trees" and "forest" mean in the following:


Einstein's Philosophy of Science
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/einstein-philscience/

Late in 1944, Albert Einstein received a letter from Robert Thornton, a young African-American philosopher of science who had just finished his Ph.D. under Herbert Feigl at Minnesota and was beginning a new job teaching physics at the University of Puerto Rico, Mayaguez. He had written to solicit from Einstein a few supportive words on behalf of his efforts to introduce “as much of the philosophy of science as possible” into the modern physics course that he was to teach the following spring (Thornton to Einstein, 28 November 1944, EA 61–573).[1] Here is what Einstein offered in reply:

I fully agree with you about the significance and educational value of methodology as well as history and philosophy of science. So many people today—and even professional scientists—seem to me like somebody who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background gives that kind of independence from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering. This independence created by philosophical insight is—in my opinion—the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.

Einstein's Philosophy of Science
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/einstein-philscience/
I fully agree with you about the significance and educational value of methodology as well as history and philosophy of science. So many people today—and even professional scientists—seem to me like somebody who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background gives that kind of independence from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering. This independence created by philosophical insight is—in my opinion—the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth.

That's an adaptation of the perfectly ordinary expression "You can't see the forest
for the trees" -- you're so concerned with details that you miss the whole.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 07:05:14 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Dingbat

Post by Lewis
The words trees, woods, and forest all mean essentially the same thing,
more than one tree, but they have (at least to me) very different
meanings with trees being reserved for a smallish collection of trees, or
a large collection of impermanent trees (The home store has thousands
of tress for sale); woods means a relatively small and possibly bounded
area of trees (The Hundred Acre Wood); and forest can mean anything from
something larger than a wood to a vast expanse.

Einstein's Philosophy of Science
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/einstein-philscience/
Late in 1944, Albert Einstein received a letter from Robert Thornton, a young African-American philosopher of science who had just finished his Ph.D. under Herbert Feigl at Minnesota and was beginning a new job teaching physics at the University of Puerto Rico, Mayaguez. He had written to solicit from Einstein a few supportive
I fully agree with you about the significance and educational value of methodology as well as history and philosophy of science. So many people today—and even professional scientists—seem to me like somebody who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background

gives that kind of independence from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering. This independence created by philosophical insight is—in my opinion—the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
That's an adaptation of the perfectly ordinary expression "You can't see the forest
for the trees" -- you're so concerned with details that you miss the whole.

Yes.

If you are in a forest all you can see are trees. You cannot see the
forest as a whole.

If you are taken blindfolded into a forest and have the blindfold
removed, all you can see are trees. There is no means of seeing the size
or outline of the forest.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
If you are in a forest all you can see are trees. You cannot see the
forest as a whole.
If you are taken blindfolded into a forest and have the blindfold
removed, all you can see are trees. There is no means of seeing the size
or outline of the forest.

I will always remember the time I was walking through the bush when a
large tree fell. The noise it made was most impressive.

It made me feel special, given that there would have been no noise if I
hadn't been there.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 7 Aug 2017 00:58:17 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
If you are in a forest all you can see are trees. You cannot see the
forest as a whole.
If you are taken blindfolded into a forest and have the blindfold
removed, all you can see are trees. There is no means of seeing the size
or outline of the forest.

I will always remember the time I was walking through the bush when a
large tree fell. The noise it made was most impressive.
It made me feel special, given that there would have been no noise if I
hadn't been there.

If you post a message to Usenet with an xna, and nobody reads it, did
you really post the message?