' Thee ' in Scotland?

Post by Iain
I asked for directions in Livingston, Scotland, today, and the woman
" ...and then that [route] brings thee out at...",
about six times.
She had vowels which I associate with the northern half of Scotland,
but, other than the inclusion of 'thee', her dialect was Standard
English, only a little less plain to outsiders than the speech of
Gordon Brown or Ewan McGregor.
The woman was aged between 50 and 60, which means she was born quite
late in the history of 'thee'.

I would guess that she had Yorkshire connections.

Iain

2010-04-29 21:51:01 UTC

I would guess that she had Yorkshire connections.

Matbe, but certainly a Scottish accent.

--Iain

Stan Brown

2010-04-30 11:35:02 UTC

I would guess that she had Yorkshire connections.

Maybe she was a Quaker?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Peter Moylan

2010-04-30 12:50:11 UTC

Post by Stan Brown

I would guess that she had Yorkshire connections.

Maybe she was a Quaker?

I doubt it. Iain's example shows "thee" being used in the traditionally
correct way. Quakers seem to swap "thou" and "thee", using "thee" in the
nominative case.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Evan Kirshenbaum

2010-04-30 14:49:11 UTC

Post by Stan Brown
Maybe she was a Quaker?

I doubt it. Iain's example shows "thee" being used in the
traditionally correct way. Quakers seem to swap "thou" and "thee",
using "thee" in the nominative case.

I thought that "thee" had just pushed out "thou" for them, much the
same way "you" pushed out "ye" for the rest of us. Hence the well-
known

Friend, I would not harm thee for the world, but thee are standing
where I am about to shoot.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If only some crazy scientist
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |somewhere would develop a device
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |that would allow us to change the
|channel on our televisions......
***@hpl.hp.com | --"lazarus"
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Roland Hutchinson

2010-04-30 19:39:01 UTC

Post by Stan Brown
Maybe she was a Quaker?

I doubt it. Iain's example shows "thee" being used in the traditionally
correct way. Quakers seem to swap "thou" and "thee", using "thee" in
the nominative case.

Or, my favorite: "Friend mule, thee knows I would not beat thee for the
world, but if thee do not start to pull this wagon, I shall sell thee to
the Methodist."

--
Roland Hutchinson

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

Steve Hayes

2010-05-01 03:49:12 UTC

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:39:01 +0000 (UTC), Roland Hutchinson

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
Friend, I would not harm thee for the world, but thee are standing
where I am about to shoot.

Or, my favorite: "Friend mule, thee knows I would not beat thee for the
world, but if thee do not start to pull this wagon, I shall sell thee to
the Methodist."

And mine: little old Quaker lady to traffic cop who has just given her a
ticket

"When thee gettest home to thy kennel I hope that thy mother biteth thee."

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Evan Kirshenbaum

2010-05-03 17:17:06 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:39:01 +0000 (UTC), Roland Hutchinson

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
Friend, I would not harm thee for the world, but thee are standing
where I am about to shoot.

Or, my favorite: "Friend mule, thee knows I would not beat thee for the
world, but if thee do not start to pull this wagon, I shall sell thee to
the Methodist."

And mine: little old Quaker lady to traffic cop who has just given
her a ticket
"When thee gettest home to thy kennel I hope that thy mother biteth thee."

"Thee get" and "thy mother bites", I believe. I don't think they've
retained the "-est" and "-eth" forms.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |though it were necessary to submit
|a piece of the moon to chemical
***@hpl.hp.com |analysis before you could be sure
(650)857-7572 |that it was not made of green
|cheese.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bergen Evans

Mike Lyle

2010-05-03 20:08:59 UTC

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:39:01 +0000 (UTC), Roland Hutchinson

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
Friend, I would not harm thee for the world, but thee are
standing where I am about to shoot.

Or, my favorite: "Friend mule, thee knows I would not beat thee for
the world, but if thee do not start to pull this wagon, I shall
sell thee to the Methodist."

And mine: little old Quaker lady to traffic cop who has just given
her a ticket
"When thee gettest home to thy kennel I hope that thy mother biteth thee."

"Thee get" and "thy mother bites", I believe. I don't think they've
retained the "-est" and "-eth" forms.

Or indeed, of course, the "thee" form. But it maketh goode stories.

--
Mike.

Evan Kirshenbaum

2010-05-04 04:00:04 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:39:01 +0000 (UTC), Roland Hutchinson

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
Friend, I would not harm thee for the world, but thee are
standing where I am about to shoot.

Or, my favorite: "Friend mule, thee knows I would not beat thee for
the world, but if thee do not start to pull this wagon, I shall
sell thee to the Methodist."

And mine: little old Quaker lady to traffic cop who has just given
her a ticket
"When thee gettest home to thy kennel I hope that thy mother biteth thee."

"Thee get" and "thy mother bites", I believe. I don't think they've
retained the "-est" and "-eth" forms.

Or indeed, of course, the "thee" form. But it maketh goode stories.

When you said this back in January, I pointed to contemporary uses,
acknowledging that it might be an American Quaker thing and likely
dying out there as well. I also posted a quote that talked about some
Quakers only using the form among themselves:

Listen to the narrator from her 1967 novel, I Roberta, fingering
the way old-time Friends had turned the plain language, originally
used as a blow for equality, completely inside out: "Some Quakers
have a way, which I dislike, of saying _thee_ to other Quakers and
_you_ to outsiders. If there's a roomful of Friends and
non-Friends, they'll sort it out quick as lightning, _thee_ing the
sheep and _you_ing the goats in the same breath."

http://www.quaker.org/fqa/types/t16-vining.html
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can we at least make it round this
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time?

***@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

David Taylor

2010-04-29 18:45:11 UTC

'Thee thou, thyself, and thine' are terms which are in everyday use by
people of all ages in parts of Yorkshire - certainly in South Yorkshire,
but given the dialesct in which they're spoken, the words are sometimes
not always easy to identify as such.

For example, if a person had an old car which often breaks down, a
friend - speaking in a South Yorskshire dialect - might say "tha' want's
to get thissen a new motor" - tha' being 'thy' and 'thissen' being 'thy
self'. Th car owner might, in a riposte say "it's now't to do wi theee -
it's not thine". (it's nothing to do with you - it's not yours).

One word in common use in Scotland and sometimes used in northern
England is 'outwith', meaning outside. Someone might say 'that's outwith
my responsibilty' meaning 'outside my responsibilty'.

All very puzzling to nayone not familiar with the term, as millions of
English speakers won't be!

David,
Nr Hull,
N.E. Coast of England.

Irwell

2010-04-29 23:06:58 UTC

Post by David Taylor
'Thee thou, thyself, and thine' are terms which are in everyday use by
people of all ages in parts of Yorkshire - certainly in South Yorkshire,
but given the dialesct in which they're spoken, the words are sometimes
not always easy to identify as such.

Cyril Fletcher used to recite a monologue called 'Dreaming of Thee'.
He rendered it with a soppy sounding accent, I was surprised to
read that the whole poem had been written by Edgar Wallace and was
about a soldier in the Great War of 1914-18.

Dr Peter Young

2010-04-30 13:31:53 UTC

'Thee thou, thyself, and thine' are terms which are in everyday use by
people of all ages in parts of Yorkshire - certainly in South Yorkshire,

Not only in Yorkshire, but in some parts of the English West Country
too. Here they also use some parts of the archaic conjugation of some
verbs. For instance, in the Forest of Dean, a historically isolated
part of Gloucestershire, the standard salutation comes over as " 'ow
bist, o' but?". This is a contraction of "How beest thee, old butty?",
or, "How are you, old friend?"

Butty is an interesting word. I think it must be related to "abut",
and always relates to something going in pairs. Butty as friend seems
to refer to inseparability, a bacon butty is bacon between pairs of
slices of bread, and on the British canals, and the butty boat is the
unpowered narrow-boat pulled by the motor boat, so is also part of an
inseparable pair. Any other instances, anyone?

With best wishes,

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Peter Duncanson (BrE)

2010-04-30 13:43:35 UTC

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:31:53 +0100, Dr Peter Young

Post by Dr Peter Young
Butty is an interesting word. I think it must be related to "abut",
and always relates to something going in pairs. Butty as friend seems
to refer to inseparability, a bacon butty is bacon between pairs of
slices of bread,

I've always assumed that "butty" derives from bread and butter.

The OED says:

A slice of bread and butter.

1855 MRS. GASKELL North & S. II. xi. 142 He's always mithering me
for 'daddy' and 'butty'; and I ha' no butties to give him, and
daddy's away.

1927 W. E. COLLINSON Contemp. Eng. 121 Buttie, general in North for
a piece of bread and butter (together with jam-buttie).

1959 I. & P. OPIE Lore & Lang. Schoolchildren ix. 162 Spread it on
the butty nice and thick.

1965 Oxford Mail 17 Nov. 11/5 The biggest jam butty in the world.

So, according to that, a butty is not specifically a sandwich.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Nick

2010-04-30 18:53:43 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:31:53 +0100, Dr Peter Young

I've always assumed that "butty" derives from bread and butter.
A slice of bread and butter.
1855 MRS. GASKELL North & S. II. xi. 142 He's always mithering me
for 'daddy' and 'butty'; and I ha' no butties to give him, and
daddy's away.
1927 W. E. COLLINSON Contemp. Eng. 121 Buttie, general in North for
a piece of bread and butter (together with jam-buttie).
1959 I. & P. OPIE Lore & Lang. Schoolchildren ix. 162 Spread it on
the butty nice and thick.
1965 Oxford Mail 17 Nov. 11/5 The biggest jam butty in the world.
So, according to that, a butty is not specifically a sandwich.

And I think the other - a butty boat, butty bach etc - is a version of
(otherwise now pretty well confined to AmE) "buddy".

--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

Mike Lyle

2010-05-03 20:12:37 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:31:53 +0100, Dr Peter Young

Post by Dr Peter Young
Butty is an interesting word. I think it must be related to "abut",
and always relates to something going in pairs. Butty as friend
seems to refer to inseparability, a bacon butty is bacon between
pairs of slices of bread,

I've always assumed that "butty" derives from bread and butter.
A slice of bread and butter.
1855 MRS. GASKELL North & S. II. xi. 142 He's always mithering me
for 'daddy' and 'butty'; and I ha' no butties to give him, and
daddy's away.
1927 W. E. COLLINSON Contemp. Eng. 121 Buttie, general in North
for a piece of bread and butter (together with jam-buttie).
1959 I. & P. OPIE Lore & Lang. Schoolchildren ix. 162 Spread it
on the butty nice and thick.
1965 Oxford Mail 17 Nov. 11/5 The biggest jam butty in the world.
So, according to that, a butty is not specifically a sandwich.

And I think the other - a butty boat, butty bach etc - is a version of
(otherwise now pretty well confined to AmE) "buddy".

South Wales still yields "but"; I don't know if it's evidence or just
chance, but I've heard it only as a vocative.

--
Mike.

Dr Peter Young

2010-05-04 15:49:01 UTC

[snip]

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
1959 I. & P. OPIE Lore & Lang. Schoolchildren ix. 162 Spread it
on the butty nice and thick.
1965 Oxford Mail 17 Nov. 11/5 The biggest jam butty in the world.
So, according to that, a butty is not specifically a sandwich.

And I think the other - a butty boat, butty bach etc - is a version of
(otherwise now pretty well confined to AmE) "buddy".

South Wales still yields "but"; I don't know if it's evidence or just
chance, but I've heard it only as a vocative.

And South Wales is only just over the River Wye from the Forest of
Dean, which is where the subject started. Forest-speak has some bits
very similar to Welsh English; for instance, "ear" sounds like "year"
and "hearing" sounds like "urine". This could make for confusion in
all the years I worked with an ear surgeon! On one occasion, I was
checking the side of the operation with an elderly Forester, and
asked, "Which ear?", getting the prompt reply, "1988".

With best wishes,

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Farmer Giles

2010-04-30 20:14:04 UTC

'Thee thou, thyself, and thine' are terms which are in everyday use by
people of all ages in parts of Yorkshire - certainly in South Yorkshire,

'Ow bist thee?', is also used by some older people in the Black Country.

Post by Dr Peter Young
Butty is an interesting word. I think it must be related to "abut",
and always relates to something going in pairs.

The Forest of Dean was, of course, a coal mining area. The 'Butty' System
was an early sort of contracting system in the coal mines whereby a team of
contractors would mine coal on a piecework system and share the proceeds at
the end of the week. The main man in this system was generally called the
butty, but I believe the term came to be applied to all the people in the
group - they were each other's 'butty'. From reading DH Lawrence, I know
that the term was widely used in the East Midlands coalfields as well. It
was also commonly used to refer to a 'mate' in the South Wales valleys -
another coal mining area. It could also be the source of the US term for a
friend 'buddy'. The origin of the use of the word in this way could be a
corruption of 'beauty'. In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Butty as friend seems

Post by Dr Peter Young
to refer to inseparability, a bacon butty is bacon between pairs of
slices of bread,

All sandwiches can, and often are, referred to as butties in England -
particularly in the north. Thus we can have jam butties, cheese butties,
etc. This usage is probably derived fron the butter in the sandwich.

Peter Duncanson (BrE)

2010-04-30 20:35:20 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Farmer Giles

2010-05-02 09:37:50 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

Peter Duncanson (BrE)

2010-05-02 10:15:37 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

Are those the humans or the livestock?

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

the Omrud

2010-05-02 12:52:54 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

No lesbians yet. Over in UMRA we've been taking bets on when the first
ones will crawl out of their closets. There is a well-established male
homosexual couple with a Civil Partnership.

And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village, but
in South Africa.

--
David

Nick

2010-05-02 13:11:02 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

No lesbians yet. Over in UMRA we've been taking bets on when the
first ones will crawl out of their closets. There is a
well-established male homosexual couple with a Civil Partnership.
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

the Omrud

2010-05-02 13:17:34 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

No lesbians yet. Over in UMRA we've been taking bets on when the
first ones will crawl out of their closets. There is a
well-established male homosexual couple with a Civil Partnership.
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half Tibetan.

I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also in
Australia?

--
David

LFS

2010-05-02 13:43:50 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

No lesbians yet. Over in UMRA we've been taking bets on when the
first ones will crawl out of their closets. There is a
well-established male homosexual couple with a Civil Partnership.
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also in
Australia?

New Zealand, I thought. But now I am confused as to my own whereabouts.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

the Omrud

2010-05-02 14:09:56 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

No lesbians yet. Over in UMRA we've been taking bets on when the
first ones will crawl out of their closets. There is a
well-established male homosexual couple with a Civil Partnership.
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half
Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also
in Australia?

New Zealand, I thought. But now I am confused as to my own whereabouts.

Old England?

--
David

LFS

2010-05-02 14:58:10 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

No lesbians yet. Over in UMRA we've been taking bets on when the
first ones will crawl out of their closets. There is a
well-established male homosexual couple with a Civil Partnership.
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half
Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also
in Australia?

New Zealand, I thought. But now I am confused as to my own whereabouts.

Old England?

I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

the Omrud

2010-05-02 16:09:42 UTC

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 21:14:04 +0100, "Farmer

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

No lesbians yet. Over in UMRA we've been taking bets on when the
first ones will crawl out of their closets. There is a
well-established male homosexual couple with a Civil Partnership.
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half
Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also
in Australia?

New Zealand, I thought. But now I am confused as to my own whereabouts.

Old England?

I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

Ah, I see. You're in Oxford. OXFORD! The tea trolley will be along
soon. Meanwhile, don't hold hands with any unknown old men.

--
David

LFS

2010-05-02 16:35:49 UTC

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 21:14:04 +0100, "Farmer

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

No lesbians yet. Over in UMRA we've been taking bets on when the
first ones will crawl out of their closets. There is a
well-established male homosexual couple with a Civil Partnership.
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half
Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also
in Australia?

New Zealand, I thought. But now I am confused as to my own whereabouts.

Old England?

I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

Ah, I see. You're in Oxford. OXFORD! The tea trolley will be along
soon. Meanwhile, don't hold hands with any unknown old men.

<giggle> Chance would be a fine thing. Oh, ISWYM. Will Peggy end up
holding hands with Ted? But I don't think we should be discussing this here.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Mike Lyle

2010-05-03 20:15:42 UTC

[...]

Post by the Omrud
Ah, I see. You're in Oxford. OXFORD! The tea trolley will be along
soon. Meanwhile, don't hold hands with any unknown old men.

<giggle> Chance would be a fine thing. Oh, ISWYM. Will Peggy end up
holding hands with Ted? But I don't think we should be discussing this here.

No, it's OK: we won't tell anybody you listen to a soap opera.

--
Mike.

LFS

2010-05-03 20:22:17 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by the Omrud
Ah, I see. You're in Oxford. OXFORD! The tea trolley will be along
soon. Meanwhile, don't hold hands with any unknown old men.

<giggle> Chance would be a fine thing. Oh, ISWYM. Will Peggy end up
holding hands with Ted? But I don't think we should be discussing this here.

No, it's OK: we won't tell anybody you listen to a soap opera.

I am not ashamed. I watch them too. (Not quite such a стахановец as you
seem to imagine, nudge, nudge.)

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Robert Bannister

2010-05-03 00:26:24 UTC

Post by LFS
I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

They seem to put taxes on everything these days. How much brain do they
take?

--
Rob Bannister

R H Draney

2010-05-03 01:22:18 UTC

Post by LFS
I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

They seem to put taxes on everything these days. How much brain do they
take?

A penny for your thoughts....r

--
"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly."
- Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle

Robert Bannister

2010-05-04 00:05:02 UTC

Post by R H Draney

Post by LFS
I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

They seem to put taxes on everything these days. How much brain do they
take?

A penny for your thoughts....r

So that's how it started. Penny wise pound foolish.

--
Rob Bannister

Lewis

2010-05-04 00:23:37 UTC

Post by R H Draney

Post by LFS
I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

They seem to put taxes on everything these days. How much brain do they
take?

A penny for your thoughts....r

So that's how it started. Penny wise pound foolish.

Don't forget to put your two cents in.

--
if you ever get that chimp of your back, if you ever find the thing you lack,
ah but you know you're only having a laugh. Oh, oh here we go again -- until
the end.

Peter Moylan

2010-05-03 06:32:21 UTC

Post by LFS
I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

They seem to put taxes on everything these days. How much brain do they
take?

That reminds me of an old joke. Number 37, I think.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

James Hogg

2010-05-03 06:36:28 UTC

Post by LFS
I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

They seem to put taxes on everything these days. How much brain do they
take?

That reminds me of an old joke. Number 37, I think.

It's the way you tell them.

--
James

Lewis

2010-05-03 06:47:32 UTC

Post by LFS
I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

They seem to put taxes on everything these days. How much brain do they
take?

That reminds me of an old joke. Number 37, I think.

That's a good one. I prefer #22 myself.

--
"You can speak soon and write like a graduate college if me let you help for a
day of 15 minutes" "1963" Issue #1

Al in St. Lou

2010-05-04 03:02:56 UTC

On Sun, 02 May 2010 15:58:10 +0100, LFS

Post by Farmer Giles
In many parts of England - particularly rural
areas - it is still common for some people to say, 'how are you, my old
beauty?'.

Do I hear Walter Gabriel? "My old pal, my old beauty"

Ah yes, dear old Walter Gabriel. I never listen the Archers nowadays, I
gather it's full of one-legged, mixed-race lesbians and the like.

No lesbians yet. Over in UMRA we've been taking bets on when the
first ones will crawl out of their closets. There is a
well-established male homosexual couple with a Civil Partnership.
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half
Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also
in Australia?

New Zealand, I thought. But now I am confused as to my own whereabouts.

Old England?

I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

American professors seem to leave marking exams to graduate students
who are know as teaching assistants. I remember questioning a grade
and having the TA tell me that all she knew was that my answer had too
large an error. (It was a class in numerical methods.) So, off I went
to the professor. She found the sign error in one of my formulae. I
objected that I'd had no idea the answer wasn't close enough for full
marks, but she just shrugged as though to say, "Them's the breaks."

--
Al in St. Lou

Amethyst Deceiver

2010-05-04 11:31:07 UTC

On Mon, 03 May 2010 22:02:56 -0500, Al in St. Lou

Post by Al in St. Lou
On Sun, 02 May 2010 15:58:10 +0100, LFS

Post by LFS
I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

I can't speak for Laura's university but at mine we use TAs to mark
exam scripts - but generally only on courses where there are large
numbers of students and small numbers of teaching staff. One prof
can't mark 400 papers in any sensible amount of time.

LFS

2010-05-04 15:07:04 UTC

Post by Amethyst Deceiver
On Mon, 03 May 2010 22:02:56 -0500, Al in St. Lou

Post by Al in St. Lou
On Sun, 02 May 2010 15:58:10 +0100, LFS

Post by LFS
I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

We do this too where there are large numbers but it can only work with
very standardised marking schemes.

I only have 50 scripts to mark on this occasion. I am half way through
but very depressed about the results. The test was seen - the students
had the questions three weeks in advance, so should have been well
prepared. However, two students have memorised and regurgitated huge
chunks of material from the textbook and from a web site, without
attribution, all of which was also irrelevant to answering the questions
involved.

Spotting the plagiarism was quite easy - "fungible" is an unusual word
for students to use in the context concerned and Google threw up the
source immediately. Somehow that makes it even more depressing.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Garrett Wollman

2010-05-04 17:44:51 UTC

Post by Amethyst Deceiver
I can't speak for Laura's university but at mine we use TAs to mark
exam scripts - but generally only on courses where there are large
numbers of students and small numbers of teaching staff. One prof
can't mark 400 papers in any sensible amount of time.

We do this too where there are large numbers but it can only work with
very standardised marking schemes.

I don't know about that. I see grading meetings fairly frequently in
my building. Usually it's the instructor(s) sitting down at a table
with the TA(s), and they divide up the papers, going through each
question one by one, with some discussion about the expected answers
and how much credit various kinds of wrong answer ought to get. I
don't know if any of them validate the grades or just expect the
students to bring up any discrepancies themselves.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
***@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

LFS

2010-05-04 18:31:20 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman

We do this too where there are large numbers but it can only work with
very standardised marking schemes.

Our quality assurance processes are rigorous and bureaucratic, involving
moderation at every stage of assessment. We have people who have built
their whole careers to the niceties of assessment, feedback and
associated busywork. They are dedicated to making life more difficult
for the rest of us. Their devotion to the cause knows no bounds.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Jerry Friedman

2010-05-04 18:37:12 UTC

We do this too where there are large numbers but it can only work with
very standardised marking schemes.

Sometimes you can standardize by having one TA or just a few grade
each question.

--
Jerry Friedman

k***@cam.ac.uk

2010-05-07 15:36:04 UTC

Post by Amethyst Deceiver
On Mon, 03 May 2010 22:02:56 -0500, Al in St. Lou

Post by Al in St. Lou
On Sun, 02 May 2010 15:58:10 +0100, LFS

Post by LFS
I meant which ng and what I happen to be talking about. I am in the
middle of marking exam papers which is taxing my brain no end.

Gosh, someone should tell the University of Cambridge that.

Katy

Peter Moylan

2010-05-03 04:47:46 UTC

Post by the Omrud
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also in
Australia?

This raises questions for those of us who live in Australia. Are
Australian children now classified (in England) as "a different race"?

I had better warn you that one of Australia's most prominent racists is
about to migrate to England. Pauline Hanson, the founder of the "One
Nation" party, has finally decided that the Australian aborigines will
never agree to go back to where they came from. She's now hoping that
she'll get a better reception in England.

Her migration plans have been affected by the fact that she can't sell
her house. When she put it on the market she specified that she would
not sell to a Muslim. As a result, nobody wants to buy it.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Stan Brown

2010-05-03 07:41:24 UTC

Mon, 03 May 2010 14:47:46 +1000 from Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
I had better warn you that one of Australia's most prominent racists is
about to migrate to England. Pauline Hanson, the founder of the "One
Nation" party, has finally decided that the Australian aborigines will
never agree to go back to where they came from.

Is she serious? Does she truly believe (or at least say she
believes) that the aborigines should leave?

Feel free to reply in email. I'm curious about this, but it's off
topic for a.u.e and I don't want to ignite a flamewar.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Peter Moylan

2010-05-04 02:34:54 UTC

Post by Stan Brown
Mon, 03 May 2010 14:47:46 +1000 from Peter Moylan

Is she serious? Does she truly believe (or at least say she
believes) that the aborigines should leave?

No, I'm exaggerating. In her public pronouncements, though, she doesn't
seem to differentiate between aboriginals and foreigners.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

LFS

2010-05-03 08:19:52 UTC

Post by the Omrud
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also in
Australia?

Is she coming home? Were her forebears shipped from our shores
originally? I rather like the idea of her being treated as an asylum seeker.

Post by Peter Moylan
Her migration plans have been affected by the fact that she can't sell
her house. When she put it on the market she specified that she would
not sell to a Muslim. As a result, nobody wants to buy it.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Mike Lyle

2010-05-03 20:26:33 UTC

[...]

Post by Peter Moylan
I had better warn you that one of Australia's most prominent racists
is about to migrate to England. Pauline Hanson, the founder of the
"One Nation" party, has finally decided that the Australian
aborigines will never agree to go back to where they came from.
She's now hoping that she'll get a better reception in England.

Is she coming home? Were her forebears shipped from our shores
originally? I rather like the idea of her being treated as an asylum seeker.

She'll be out of luck. La Thatcher and her henchvegetables closed most
of the asylums.

Her precarious mental stability may be in for a shock in another way,
too. My Queensland aunt over here visiting me at univ remarked that
there were "a lot of natives" about: and the proportion has mounted
somewhat since the sixties.

Post by Peter Moylan
Her migration plans have been affected by the fact that she can't
sell her house. When she put it on the market she specified that she
would not sell to a Muslim. As a result, nobody wants to buy it.

I hope she doesn't think that proves her point.

--
Mike.

the Omrud

2010-05-03 21:27:56 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by Peter Moylan
I had better warn you that one of Australia's most prominent racists
is about to migrate to England. Pauline Hanson, the founder of the
"One Nation" party, has finally decided that the Australian
aborigines will never agree to go back to where they came from.
She's now hoping that she'll get a better reception in England.

Is she coming home? Were her forebears shipped from our shores
originally? I rather like the idea of her being treated as an asylum seeker.

Seems her father was a Brit, so she has the right to live here.

Post by Mike Lyle
She'll be out of luck. La Thatcher and her henchvegetables closed most
of the asylums.
Her precarious mental stability may be in for a shock in another way,
too. My Queensland aunt over here visiting me at univ remarked that
there were "a lot of natives" about: and the proportion has mounted
somewhat since the sixties.

That's me. I'm definitely a native, even unfrom the early 18th Century,
at least.

--
David

the Omrud

2010-05-03 08:48:34 UTC

Post by the Omrud
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also in
Australia?

This raises questions for those of us who live in Australia. Are
Australian children now classified (in England) as "a different race"?

No - it was a feeble joke, based on the fact that there are no
(apparent) mixed race people living in Ambridge, the home of The
Archers, which is a radio drama serial M'Lud. The best I could come up
with was children who are half Australian.

Mind, it depends what you mean by "classified". Brits are not
classified in any legal way - I have a feeling that the indigenous
peoples in both Australia and the USA can claim a status which gives
them certain rights. That concept doesn't exist here.

Oooh, good, I like an interesting bigot. I see that "The announcement
was warmly welcomed by Nick Griffin, leader of the far-right British
National Party". Will she go to live in Rochdale?

Ah, a stupid bigot. Even better.

--
David

Peter Duncanson (BrE)

2010-05-03 09:05:09 UTC

On Mon, 03 May 2010 09:48:34 +0100, the Omrud

Post by the Omrud
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also in
Australia?

This raises questions for those of us who live in Australia. Are
Australian children now classified (in England) as "a different race"?

No - it was a feeble joke, based on the fact that there are no
(apparent) mixed race people living in Ambridge, the home of The
Archers, which is a radio drama serial M'Lud. The best I could come up
with was children who are half Australian.
Mind, it depends what you mean by "classified". Brits are not
classified in any legal way - I have a feeling that the indigenous
peoples in both Australia and the USA can claim a status which gives
them certain rights. That concept doesn't exist here.

Oooh, good, I like an interesting bigot. I see that "The announcement
was warmly welcomed by Nick Griffin, leader of the far-right British
National Party". Will she go to live in Rochdale?

She might not be comfortable in the BNP:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23756941-bnp-will-allow-black-members.do

The BNP will be forced to admit black and Asian members after a
legal victory for the Government's Equality and Human Rights
Commission which will end the party's “white only” policy.

In a court order issued today, the party agreed to amend its
constitution to ensure that its membership rules no longer
discriminate on grounds of race, religion or any other “protected
characteristic” specified under equality legislation.

She might also like to adjust her accent closer to that of Rochdale so
as not to stand out like a sore thumb.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Farmer Giles

2010-05-03 09:09:25 UTC

Post by the Omrud
And the only mixed race people we know of don't live in the village,
but in South Africa.

Do we actually know? We've all been assuming it, but do we actually
have evidence? That would have required someone to comment on it, and
it's a subject that is never touched on.

I did worry about that as I posted, hence "the only ... we know of".
Although perhaps Mr Pullen is half Cherokee. Or mabye Ruth is half Tibetan.
I just remembered - Kenton's daughter is half Australian. But then she
doesn't live in Ambridge either. And doesn't Lucy have a child, also in
Australia?

This raises questions for those of us who live in Australia. Are
Australian children now classified (in England) as "a different race"?

No - it was a feeble joke, based on the fact that there are no (apparent)
mixed race people living in Ambridge, the home of The Archers, which is a
radio drama serial M'Lud. The best I could come up with was children who
are half Australian.
Mind, it depends what you mean by "classified". Brits are not classified
in any legal way - I have a feeling that the indigenous peoples in both
Australia and the USA can claim a status which gives them certain rights.
That concept doesn't exist here.

She will be very welcome.

Oooh, good, I like an interesting bigot. I see that "The announcement was
warmly welcomed by Nick Griffin, leader of the far-right British National
Party". Will she go to live in Rochdale?

Methinks your idea of a bigot - like Gordon Brown's, apparently - is someone
who doesn't share your daft views.

Ah, a stupid bigot. Even better.

If you want to meet a stupid bigot, then just look in the mirror.

Peter Duncanson (BrE)

2010-05-03 10:21:22 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
Methinks your idea of a bigot - like Gordon Brown's, apparently - is someone
who doesn't share your daft views.

That is one way in which the word "bigot" is used.

The OED says:

bigot, n. and adj.

2.
a. A person considered to adhere unreasonably or obstinately to a
particular religious belief, practice, etc.

b. In extended use: a fanatical adherent or believer; a person
characterized by obstinate, intolerant, or strongly partisan
beliefs.

"Bigot" is almost always used in a negative sense. It is a criticism of
someone whose beliefs, etc. you do not share. It's a Them and Us, We and
They situation.

"We" are firm and steadfast in our beliefs. "We" will not be deterred
or seduced from saying and doing what we know to be right. "They" who
oppose us are bigots.

The positive use of the word seems to be limited to those who are
accused of bigotry adopting the slogan "Proud to be a bigot".

I came to live in Northen Ireland in 1972. At that time the word bigot
was being thrown around as an insult locally. It was also being used
freely by news reporters from outside. It didn't take long for me to
realise that the users of "bigot" were just as firm and stubborn in
their attitudes as those they were calling bigots.

I realised that a common feature of many of those using the word was
that they stubbornly refused to attempt to understand those they accused
of bigotry. That made them bigots themselves.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Farmer Giles

2010-05-03 12:01:30 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
Methinks your idea of a bigot - like Gordon Brown's, apparently - is someone
who doesn't share your daft views.

That is one way in which the word "bigot" is used.
bigot, n. and adj.
2.
a. A person considered to adhere unreasonably or obstinately to a
particular religious belief, practice, etc.
b. In extended use: a fanatical adherent or believer; a person
characterized by obstinate, intolerant, or strongly partisan
beliefs.
"Bigot" is almost always used in a negative sense. It is a criticism of
someone whose beliefs, etc. you do not share. It's a Them and Us, We and
They situation.
"We" are firm and steadfast in our beliefs. "We" will not be deterred
or seduced from saying and doing what we know to be right. "They" who
oppose us are bigots.
The positive use of the word seems to be limited to those who are
accused of bigotry adopting the slogan "Proud to be a bigot".
I came to live in Northen Ireland in 1972. At that time the word bigot
was being thrown around as an insult locally. It was also being used
freely by news reporters from outside. It didn't take long for me to
realise that the users of "bigot" were just as firm and stubborn in
their attitudes as those they were calling bigots.
I realised that a common feature of many of those using the word was
that they stubbornly refused to attempt to understand those they accused
of bigotry. That made them bigots themselves.

Absolutely.

Stan Brown

2010-05-03 23:04:47 UTC

Mon, 03 May 2010 11:21:22 +0100 from Peter Duncanson (BrE)

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
"Bigot" is almost always used in a negative sense. It is a criticism of
someone whose beliefs, etc. you do not share.

Nonsense. "Bigot" denotes more than a simple difference of opinion.
It includes an _unreasoning_ adherence to one belief, an
unwillingness to consider other points of view, and an evaluation of
those who hold those points of view as undeserving of the same rights
help by the bigot.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Peter Duncanson (BrE)

2010-05-03 23:12:46 UTC

On Mon, 3 May 2010 19:04:47 -0400, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
Mon, 03 May 2010 11:21:22 +0100 from Peter Duncanson (BrE)

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
"Bigot" is almost always used in a negative sense. It is a criticism of
someone whose beliefs, etc. you do not share.

I was describing my experience of the use of "bigot" in BrE.

There may well be differences in the use of the word elsewhere.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Steve Hayes

2010-05-04 03:30:16 UTC

On Tue, 04 May 2010 00:12:46 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Mon, 3 May 2010 19:04:47 -0400, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
Mon, 03 May 2010 11:21:22 +0100 from Peter Duncanson (BrE)

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
"Bigot" is almost always used in a negative sense. It is a criticism of
someone whose beliefs, etc. you do not share.

I was describing my experience of the use of "bigot" in BrE.
There may well be differences in the use of the word elsewhere.

To me (SAfE) the essence is not merely an unwillingness to consider other
points of view, but an outright rejection of them without considering them.

Bigotry is an extreme form of prejudice.

Cheryl P.

2010-05-04 09:35:12 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 04 May 2010 00:12:46 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Mon, 3 May 2010 19:04:47 -0400, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
Mon, 03 May 2010 11:21:22 +0100 from Peter Duncanson (BrE)

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
"Bigot" is almost always used in a negative sense. It is a criticism of
someone whose beliefs, etc. you do not share.

I was describing my experience of the use of "bigot" in BrE.
There may well be differences in the use of the word elsewhere.

To me (SAfE) the essence is not merely an unwillingness to consider other
points of view, but an outright rejection of them without considering them.
Bigotry is an extreme form of prejudice.

I think 'bigotry' meant that originally, but it seems to be in the
process of becoming just another word that means 'I don't agree with
your opinions and you're an idiot for holding them', with the
'unthinking rejection of others' opinions being in the person using the
term (and, to be fair, sometimes in his/her debating opponent, if you
can call these sorts of discussions 'debating').

--
Cheryl

Robert Bannister

2010-05-04 00:10:28 UTC

Post by Stan Brown
Mon, 03 May 2010 11:21:22 +0100 from Peter Duncanson (BrE)

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
"Bigot" is almost always used in a negative sense. It is a criticism of
someone whose beliefs, etc. you do not share.

Depends on who's tossing the word about. For some, it simply means
"other people".

--
Rob Bannister

Jerry Friedman

2010-05-03 17:30:44 UTC

[The Archers]

Post by Peter Moylan
This raises questions for those of us who live in Australia. Are
Australian children now classified (in England) as "a different race"?

No - it was a feeble joke, based on the fact that there are no
(apparent) mixed race people living in Ambridge, the home of The
Archers, which is a radio drama serial M'Lud. The best I could come up
with was children who are half Australian.
Mind, it depends what you mean by "classified". Brits are not
classified in any legal way - I have a feeling that the indigenous
peoples in both Australia and the USA can claim a status which gives
them certain rights.

Yes, the main one I know of in my country is that enrolled members of
an Indian tribe (I think that's the criterion) can use the Indian
Health Service. They also usually have specific rights based on the
treaties their ancestors made with the Federal government.

Post by the Omrud
That concept doesn't exist here.

Although some might favor it--vide infra. There would be an
interesting debate about who was indigenous.

Oooh, good, I like an interesting bigot. I see that "The announcement
was warmly welcomed by Nick Griffin, leader of the far-right British
National Party".

Not to be confused with the centrist but rather off-beat British
National Party, the almost Troskyite British National Party, and
various other British National Parties.

Post by the Omrud
Will she go to live in Rochdale?

Ah, a stupid bigot. Even better.

Yes, it takes all kinds to make a world, and some kinds are
particularly entertaining.

--
Jerry Friedman

Joe Fineman

2010-04-30 21:46:02 UTC

Post by Farmer Giles
The Forest of Dean was, of course, a coal mining area. The 'Butty'
System was an early sort of contracting system in the coal mines
whereby a team of contractors would mine coal on a piecework system
and share the proceeds at the end of the week. The main man in this
system was generally called the butty, but I believe the term came
to be applied to all the people in the group - they were each
other's 'butty'. From reading DH Lawrence, I know that the term was
widely used in the East Midlands coalfields as well. It was also
commonly used to refer to a 'mate' in the South Wales valleys -
another coal mining area. It could also be the source of the US term
for a friend 'buddy'.

I had always assumed that that was kid talk for "brother". The OED,
it turns out, countenances both possibilities.

--
--- Joe Fineman ***@verizon.net

||: It is an advantage in propaganda to seem virtuous, and one :||
||: way to seem virtuous is to be virtuous. :||

Jerry Friedman

2010-05-01 05:06:04 UTC

'Thee thou, thyself, and thine' are terms which are in everyday use by
people of all ages in parts of Yorkshire - certainly in South Yorkshire,

Not only in Yorkshire, but in some parts of the English West Country
too. Here they also use some parts of the archaic conjugation of some
verbs. For instance, in the Forest of Dean, a historically isolated
part of Gloucestershire, the standard salutation comes over as " 'ow
bist, o' but?". This is a contraction of "How beest thee, oldbutty?",
or, "How are you, old friend?"
Butty is an interesting word. I think it must be related to "abut",
and always relates to something going in pairs.Butty as friend seems
to refer to inseparability, a bacon butty is bacon between pairs of
slices of bread, and on the British canals, and the butty boat is the
unpowered narrow-boat pulled by the motor boat, so is also part of an
inseparable pair. Any other instances, anyone?

That inseparable pair the buttocks?

Okay, the NSOED says the "sandwich" butty is from "butter".

The "friend" butty is "probably from /play/ BOOTY", to combine against
another player of a game (also to cheat, to lose intentionally).
"Butty-gang" and a contractor in mining come from that meaning.

"Buddy", originally U.S., is either an alteration of this word or a
variant of "brother"--a baby-talk version, I'd think, like "bub" and
presumably "bubba".

"Abut" is from "butt", a mound for an archery target or the target
itself, hence a terminal or boundary point, from French.

So I think you've noticed an interesting coincidence.

--
Jerry Friedman

Dr Peter Young

2010-05-01 13:06:34 UTC

On 1 May 2010 Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]

Post by Jerry Friedman
Okay, the NSOED says the "sandwich" butty is from "butter".
The "friend" butty is "probably from /play/ BOOTY", to combine against
another player of a game (also to cheat, to lose intentionally).
"Butty-gang" and a contractor in mining come from that meaning.
"Buddy", originally U.S., is either an alteration of this word or a
variant of "brother"--a baby-talk version, I'd think, like "bub" and
presumably "bubba".
"Abut" is from "butt", a mound for an archery target or the target
itself, hence a terminal or boundary point, from French.
So I think you've noticed an interesting coincidence.

Some interesting etymology, thanks. It mostly seems quite probable,
but I have doubts about the derivation of butty from butter, as the
other uses do seem to refer to pairs.

With best wishes,

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Peter Duncanson (BrE)

2010-05-01 13:38:50 UTC

On Sat, 01 May 2010 14:06:34 +0100, Dr Peter Young

Post by Dr Peter Young
[snip]

Some interesting etymology, thanks. It mostly seems quite probable,
but I have doubts about the derivation of butty from butter, as the
other uses do seem to refer to pairs.

"Butty" and "butty" could be two different words with different origins
that happen to have the same spelling and pronunciation.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

n***@aol.com

2014-07-29 10:34:34 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
Okay, the NSOED says the "sandwich" butty is from "butter".

Some interesting etymology, thanks. It mostly seems quite probable,
but I have doubts about the derivation of butty from butter, as the
other uses do seem to refer to pairs.

There is also the Welsh word 'bwyty' which seems to be used now on restaurants but also snack bars.
picture: www.urban75.org/photos/wales/hayes-island.html

It might be wishful thinking but I can well imagine Welsh men at work in Liverpool opening up their lunch and calling it 'bwyty'
(pronunciation > http://www.forvo.com/word/bwyty/ )
and the word quickly being (wrongly) translated by his workmates as 'sandwiches'.

Peter Young

2014-07-29 11:08:45 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
Okay, the NSOED says the "sandwich" butty is from "butter".

Some interesting etymology, thanks. It mostly seems quite probable,
but I have doubts about the derivation of butty from butter, as the
other uses do seem to refer to pairs.

There is also the Welsh word 'bwyty' which seems to be used now on
restaurants but also snack bars.
picture: www.urban75.org/photos/wales/hayes-island.html
It might be wishful thinking but I can well imagine Welsh men at work
in Liverpool opening up their lunch and calling it 'bwyty'
(pronunciation > http://www.forvo.com/word/bwyty/ )
and the word quickly being (wrongly) translated by his workmates as 'sandwiches'.

I've only just discovered this which seems to be a reply to a message
of mine some time ago (I do have a life outside a.u.e!).

I am aware of the definition given in the dictionaries for "butty" as
something to do with butter, but this totally ignores two other usages
of the word.

On the British canals a "butty-boat" is a narrow-boat without an
engine towed by a "motor-boat". In the Forest of Dean one's "butty" is
one's oldest friend. It seems to me that the essence of "butty" is the
concept of things in pairs, and how many pieces of bread go to make a
butty, as in sandwich? Perhaps the above "bwyty" is the same word as
"butty"? Some Forest dialect is close to Welsh English.

Taking up the "thee" in the subject line, I'm sure that I've mentioned
before that the standard Forest of Dean greeting is, " 'ow bist, o'
but?", an contraction of "How beest thee, old butty?"

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Re)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2014-07-29 11:58:07 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
Okay, the NSOED says the "sandwich" butty is from "butter".

Some interesting etymology, thanks. It mostly seems quite probable,
but I have doubts about the derivation of butty from butter, as the
other uses do seem to refer to pairs.

There is also the Welsh word 'bwyty' which seems to be used now on restaurants but also snack bars.
picture: www.urban75.org/photos/wales/hayes-island.html

This University of Wales dictionary translates it as "restautant" or
"cafe".
http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&term=bwyty&direction=we&type=all&whichpart=exact

This one says:
http://glosbe.com/cy/en/bwyty

an eating establishment in which diners are served food at their
tables

So a "bwyty" is a place where "you park your booty", sit down, to eat.

Post by n***@aol.com
It might be wishful thinking but I can well imagine Welsh men at work in Liverpool opening up their lunch and calling it 'bwyty'
(pronunciation > http://www.forvo.com/word/bwyty/ )
and the word quickly being (wrongly) translated by his workmates as 'sandwiches'.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Guy Barry

2014-07-29 13:30:09 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
Okay, the NSOED says the "sandwich" butty is from "butter".

Some interesting etymology, thanks. It mostly seems quite probable,
but I have doubts about the derivation of butty from butter, as the
other uses do seem to refer to pairs.

There is also the Welsh word 'bwyty' which seems to be used now on
restaurants but also snack bars.
picture: www.urban75.org/photos/wales/hayes-island.html
It might be wishful thinking but I can well imagine Welsh men at work in
Liverpool opening up their lunch and calling it 'bwyty'
(pronunciation > http://www.forvo.com/word/bwyty/ )
and the word quickly being (wrongly) translated by his workmates as 'sandwiches'.

Thanks. There aren't enough threads about sandwiches on this group, so I'm
glad you resurrected one from 2010.

--
Guy Barry

Robert Bannister

2014-07-29 23:29:45 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
Okay, the NSOED says the "sandwich" butty is from "butter".

Some interesting etymology, thanks. It mostly seems quite probable,
but I have doubts about the derivation of butty from butter, as the
other uses do seem to refer to pairs.

There is also the Welsh word 'bwyty' which seems to be used now on restaurants but also snack bars.
picture: www.urban75.org/photos/wales/hayes-island.html
It might be wishful thinking but I can well imagine Welsh men at work in Liverpool opening up their lunch and calling it 'bwyty'
(pronunciation > http://www.forvo.com/word/bwyty/ )
and the word quickly being (wrongly) translated by his workmates as 'sandwiches'.

What are all these Welshmen doing in the Liverpool part of Ireland? I
bet some of them aren't even Catholic.

--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

Guy Barry

2014-07-30 06:05:36 UTC

What are all these Welshmen doing in the Liverpool part of Ireland? I bet
some of them aren't even Catholic.

Liverpool is about ten miles from the Welsh border. I've heard it referred
to as "the capital of north Wales".

--
Guy Barry

s***@gowanhill.com

2014-07-30 20:43:37 UTC

Post by n***@aol.com
There is also the Welsh word 'bwyty' which seems to be used now on
restaurants but also snack bars.

That probably has nothing to do with 'butter' but is from 'bwyd' (food) and 'ty' (house).

Compare 'llety' (lodgings) - 'lle' (place) and 'ty' (house)

Owain

Farmer Giles

2010-05-01 06:19:45 UTC

(reposting this reply because it hasn't appeared on my server. Apologies if
it has appeared twice elsewhere.)

'Thee thou, thyself, and thine' are terms which are in everyday use by
people of all ages in parts of Yorkshire - certainly in South Yorkshire,

'Ow bist thee?', is also used by some older people in the Black Country.

Post by Dr Peter Young
Butty is an interesting word. I think it must be related to "abut",
and always relates to something going in pairs.

Post by Dr Peter Young
to refer to inseparability, a bacon butty is bacon between pairs of
slices of bread,

Robert Bannister

2010-05-01 23:11:14 UTC

'Thee thou, thyself, and thine' are terms which are in everyday use by
people of all ages in parts of Yorkshire - certainly in South Yorkshire,

Not only in Yorkshire, but in some parts of the English West Country
too. Here they also use some parts of the archaic conjugation of some
verbs. For instance, in the Forest of Dean, a historically isolated
part of Gloucestershire, the standard salutation comes over as " 'ow
bist, o' but?". This is a contraction of "How beest thee, old butty?",
or, "How are you, old friend?"
Butty is an interesting word. I think it must be related to "abut",
and always relates to something going in pairs. Butty as friend seems
to refer to inseparability, a bacon butty is bacon between pairs of
slices of bread, and on the British canals, and the butty boat is the
unpowered narrow-boat pulled by the motor boat, so is also part of an
inseparable pair. Any other instances, anyone?

I thought it went with "me old beauty" - take the "y" out and you're
halfway to "butty".

--
Rob Bannister

Nick

2010-04-30 18:51:24 UTC

'Thee thou, thyself, and thine' are terms which are in everyday use by
people of all ages in parts of Yorkshire - certainly in South
Yorkshire, but given the dialesct in which they're spoken, the words
are sometimes not always easy to identify as such.
For example, if a person had an old car which often breaks down, a
friend - speaking in a South Yorskshire dialect - might say "tha'
want's to get thissen a new motor" - tha' being 'thy' and 'thissen'
being 'thy self'. Th car owner might, in a riposte say "it's now't to
do wi theee -
it's not thine". (it's nothing to do with you - it's not yours).
One word in common use in Scotland and sometimes used in northern
England is 'outwith', meaning outside. Someone might say 'that's
outwith my responsibilty' meaning 'outside my responsibilty'.
All very puzzling to nayone not familiar with the term, as millions of
English speakers won't be!

Appen as mebbee.

--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

Redshade

2010-04-30 22:37:01 UTC

Post by Iain
I asked for directions in Livingston, Scotland, today, and the woman
" ...and then that [route] brings thee out at...",
about six times.

'Thee thou, thyself, and thine' are terms which are in everyday use by
people of all ages in parts of Yorkshire - certainly in South Yorkshire,
but given the dialesct in which they're spoken, the words are sometimes
not always easy to identify as such.
For example, if a person had an old car which often breaks down, a
friend - speaking in a South Yorskshire dialect - might say "tha' want's
to get thissen a new motor" - tha' being 'thy' and 'thissen' being 'thy
self'. Th car owner might, in a riposte say "it's now't to do wi theee -
it's not thine". (it's nothing to do with you - it's not yours).
David,
Nr Hull,
N.E. Coast of England.- Hide quoted text -

Here in the West Riding "tha" is the subjective "thou" and "thi" is
the objective "thee" and still commonly heard. The "thy" and "thine"
genitive pronouns one hears less frequently these days as is its local
variant "thars".
Of course it is accepted that "grammatical rules" do not apply to
dialect speech: We say "tha's" (thou is") and not "thou art".
And thus does the language evolve.

Prai Jei

2010-04-29 20:10:23 UTC

The Society of Friends (Quakers) are noted for preserving the use of
the "thou" forms in speech where they are virtually obsolete everywhere
else. Was this lady a Quaker?

--
ξ:) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

Steve Hayes

2010-05-01 03:50:54 UTC