Post by Peter T. Daniels Post by firstname.lastname@example.org Post by Peter T. Daniels Post by email@example.com Post by Peter T. Daniels Post by firstname.lastname@example.org Post by Peter T. Daniels Post by email@example.com Post by Peter T. Daniels Post by Harrison Hill Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear
Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';
French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".
Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'.
That's just wrong. Didn't your recently advise me not to on rely on
general-purpose dictionaries for the definitions of technical terms
The "carène" is the immersed part of the hull ("coque" in French) and
apparently translates as just "hull" in English, while the "quille" (keel)
In the AHD's defence, "carenne" (but not "carène") once meant "keel"
in Old French (in 1246), hence maybe the inaccuracy.
Or maybe complete accuracy with reference to the etymon of the English word.
The etymon may be right, but the meaning of "keel" for "carène" that
you inferred therefrom, which was the point discussed, is clearly wrong.
The exact citation is as follows. It does not matter one whit whether the word
currently means 'keel', 'hull', or 'carrot'. When the word was borrowed, it
[< French _(en) carène_, (on) the keel < Old French _carene_ < Old Italian
_carena_ < Latin _carina_; see *kar-* in App. 1.]
If you don't like it, take it up with the late Calvert Watkins, who was still
the etymologies editor when the 5th ed. was published in 2011.
But you wrote "No, Fr. carène 'keel'", which implies that the French, not
Old French, meaning of the word is "keel", which it isn't.
By the time the spelling of "carène" appeared (1552), Old French had
given way to French and the word did have the meaning of "immersed part
The word did not come to English from Old French, but from French. The
etymology glosses "en carène" as 'on keel'.
That's precisely where the shoe pinches and where my assumption that your
source may not be reliable is confirmed, because "mettre (un bateau) en
carène" (= to careen) means "Turn (a ship) on its side for cleaning,
caulking, or repair" (OED), so that "on keel" is a gross mistranslation
of "en carène".
Here are pictures of careened boats and boats on keel, respectively:
The pictures speak for themselves.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Thus, whenever the word came into English
(MW says ca. 1583), the French word meant 'keel'. MW, BTW, has a different
etymon, carine 'side of a ship' < MF.
But it also says (emphasis mine):
"from Medieval French, _submerged part of a hull_",
from Latin carina _hull_, half of a nutshell"
As I understand it, the bottom line is you initially inferred
from the AHD's etymological information "Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'"
you quoted that "the meaning "keel" also applied to "Fr. carène", whereas
it's apparently limited to "Lat. carina" and says nothing of
"carène" - hence your persistence in error.
Post by Peter T. Daniels Post by firstname.lastname@example.org
"Étymol. et Hist. I. 1. Mar. a) 1246 carenne « quille » (Propositions des commissaires du roi de France [trad. de traités passés entre St-Louis et
le procureur du podestat de Gênes, rédigés en lat. médiév. : in carena]
ds Vidos, p. 294), attest. isolée; b) 1552 carene « ensemble de la coque
immergée » (Ronsard, sonnet XLIV ds Les Amours, éd. Laumonier, t. 4,
Irrelevant to the English etymology.
??? How could that be, since the etymon is supposed to be French?