Discussion:
"Disappearing coastline " - say what?
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occam
2018-04-25 07:03:51 UTC
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From a recent BBC news item

"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."

The intended meaning becomes clear in the full article:
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years

However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it shrink
away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it inaccessible?

OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
Peter Moylan
2018-04-25 07:17:18 UTC
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Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline
is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into the
ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably the 300m is
for the entire island, calculated by comparing old and new maps.

This is currently a live issue in my area, and I imagine it's a growing
problem in many places around the world. As the oceans warm up, storms
are becoming more violent, so coastal erosion is becoming a more serious
problem.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Harrison Hill
2018-04-25 08:07:29 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline
is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into the
ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably the 300m is
for the entire island, calculated by comparing old and new maps.
This is currently a live issue in my area, and I imagine it's a growing
problem in many places around the world. As the oceans warm up, storms
are becoming more violent, so coastal erosion is becoming a more serious
problem.
But the coastline is also extending. In Britain, East Anglia
is falling into the sea; while Lancashire is extending itself
towards Ireland - Ribble silt pushing Southport's long, long
pier further and further away from the sea.
pensive hamster
2018-04-26 17:55:28 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline
is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into the
ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably the 300m is
for the entire island, calculated by comparing old and new maps.
This is currently a live issue in my area, and I imagine it's a growing
problem in many places around the world. As the oceans warm up, storms
are becoming more violent, so coastal erosion is becoming a more serious
problem.
But the coastline is also extending. In Britain, East Anglia
is falling into the sea; while Lancashire is extending itself
towards Ireland - Ribble silt pushing Southport's long, long
pier further and further away from the sea.
Parts of East Anglia are falling into the sea, and then
reappearing some miles to the west, due to longshore drift.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longshore_drift

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00xlktr

For example, places like Cley and Blakeney, to the west of
Hemsby's eroding cliffs, used to be harbours in past centuries,
but are now silted up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blakeney,_Norfolk#Description

"Blakeney was a commercial seaport until the early 20th century.
Now the harbour is silted up, and only small boats can make
their way out past Blakeney Point to the sea."

In the map below, all the land within the royal blue area is sand
dunes resulting from longshore drift over the last thousand
years or so:

Loading Image...

This is an aerial photo of the same area, looking east:

Loading Image...

Somewhat similar to what you say is happening in
Lancashire.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-04-27 11:58:22 UTC
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On 2018-04-26 19:55:28 +0200, pensive hamster
[ ... ]
"Blakeney was a commercial seaport until the early 20th century.
Now the harbour is silted up, and only small boats can make
their way out past Blakeney Point to the sea."
In the map below, all the land within the royal blue area is sand
dunes resulting from longshore drift over the last thousand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blakeneysm.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbNjJoRXcAAa_Pg.jpg
There are lots of places like that. Louis IX set out for the 7th and
8th crusades from Aigues Mortes, sailing from a location that is now at
least 1 km from the sea.
--
athel
pensive hamster
2018-04-27 14:51:46 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
"Blakeney was a commercial seaport until the early 20th century.
Now the harbour is silted up, and only small boats can make
their way out past Blakeney Point to the sea."
In the map below, all the land within the royal blue area is sand
dunes resulting from longshore drift over the last thousand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blakeneysm.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbNjJoRXcAAa_Pg.jpg
There are lots of places like that. Louis IX set out for the 7th and
8th crusades from Aigues Mortes, sailing from a location that is now at
least 1 km from the sea.
Yes, there are lots of places like that. So not so much a
disappearing coastline, more a shape-shifting coastline.

It seems you can still sail from Aigues Mortes nowadays,
they've built a marina. And a seaquarium.

https://goo.gl/maps/EJqofqdQX9L2
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-04-28 06:33:29 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
"Blakeney was a commercial seaport until the early 20th century.
Now the harbour is silted up, and only small boats can make
their way out past Blakeney Point to the sea."
In the map below, all the land within the royal blue area is sand
dunes resulting from longshore drift over the last thousand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blakeneysm.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbNjJoRXcAAa_Pg.jpg
There are lots of places like that. Louis IX set out for the 7th and
8th crusades from Aigues Mortes, sailing from a location that is now at
least 1 km from the sea.
Yes, there are lots of places like that. So not so much a
disappearing coastline, more a shape-shifting coastline.
It seems you can still sail from Aigues Mortes nowadays,
they've built a marina. And a seaquarium.
https://goo.gl/maps/EJqofqdQX9L2
Not really. For advertising purposes they may call it Aigues Mortes,
which sounds more appealing than Le Grau-du-Roi, but it's not where the
mediaeval city is.
--
athel
Janet
2018-04-25 09:17:46 UTC
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In article <pbpa22$mgk$***@dont-email.me>, ***@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline
is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into the
ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably the 300m is
for the entire island,
No, that's 300 m lost in the immediate area, since 1970.
Post by Peter Moylan
calculated by comparing old and new maps.
that's just one of the methods used. More here

www.envirotech-online.com/news/environmental-
laboratory/7/breaking_news/how_is_coastal_erosion_monitored/33318

Coastal erosion due to climate change is a big concern where I live.

Janet.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Peter Moylan
2018-04-25 09:57:44 UTC
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Post by Janet
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
Post by Janet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the
coastline is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into
the ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably
the 300m is for the entire island,
No, that's 300 m lost in the immediate area, since 1970.
That's a claim that I find difficult to believe. To shorten the
coastline by 300 m, you'd have to cut off a peninsula, or something like
that.

From the limited information on the web site, it looks to me as if 300 m
of coastline has been replaced by another 300 m of coastline, and if
that's the case then I understand occam's objection. That can't be
described as "lost coastline". The right way to describe it is something
like "the coastline has retreated by 5 m".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Cheryl
2018-04-25 10:26:17 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
Post by Janet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the
coastline is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into
the ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably
the 300m is for the entire island,
No, that's 300 m lost in the immediate area, since 1970.
That's a claim that I find difficult to believe. To shorten the
coastline by 300 m, you'd have to cut off a peninsula, or something like
that.
From the limited information on the web site, it looks to me as if 300 m
of coastline has been replaced by another 300 m of coastline, and if
that's the case then I understand occam's objection. That can't be
described as "lost coastline". The right way to describe it is something
like "the coastline has retreated by 5 m".
I'd say the replaced coastline has been lost. After all, it's not there
any more, is it? People do say coastlines retreat, but to me, that makes
less sense than saying that they disappear/are washed away, are lost,
and are replaced by a new coastline. The new coastline might be more or
less the same length as the original one, but, say, 300 m further
inland. Or it might be shorter, if some kind of headland was washed
away. I don't think a new coastline could be bigger or longer than the
old one unless massive earth-moving by humans was involved - or perhaps,
an active volcano.
--
Cheryl
Peter Moylan
2018-04-25 13:14:23 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did
it shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp
making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the
coastline is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling
into the ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing.
Presumably the 300m is for the entire island,
No, that's 300 m lost in the immediate area, since 1970.
That's a claim that I find difficult to believe. To shorten the
coastline by 300 m, you'd have to cut off a peninsula, or
something like that.
From the limited information on the web site, it looks to me as if
300 m of coastline has been replaced by another 300 m of
coastline, and if that's the case then I understand occam's
objection. That can't be described as "lost coastline". The right
way to describe it is something like "the coastline has retreated
by 5 m".
I'd say the replaced coastline has been lost. After all, it's not
there any more, is it? People do say coastlines retreat, but to me,
that makes less sense than saying that they disappear/are washed
away, are lost, and are replaced by a new coastline. The new
coastline might be more or less the same length as the original one,
but, say, 300 m further inland. Or it might be shorter, if some kind
of headland was washed away. I don't think a new coastline could be
bigger or longer than the old one unless massive earth-moving by
humans was involved - or perhaps, an active volcano.
Suppose that, as a result of a minor weather event, the coastline moves
inland by 1 millimetre along a 300-metre stretch. There is a sense in
which 300m of coastline has been lost, but that statement is misleading.
The inland movement is a much more honest measure of the magnitude of
the change.

A 5-metre change is significant, because that's enough to remove all the
sand from a beach or to undermine a few houses. A 1-mm change is of no
importance, because it's insignificant compared with the daily tidal
variation.

Now, if the coastline really did move 300 m inland, that would be
indicative of a major catastrophe, but it's rare to see a change of that
magnitude.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Cheryl
2018-04-25 13:32:10 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Cheryl
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did
it shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp
making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the
coastline is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling
into the ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing.
Presumably the 300m is for the entire island,
No, that's 300 m lost in the immediate area, since 1970.
That's a claim that I find difficult to believe. To shorten the
coastline by 300 m, you'd have to cut off a peninsula, or
something like that.
From the limited information on the web site, it looks to me as if
300 m of coastline has been replaced by another 300 m of
coastline, and if that's the case then I understand occam's
objection. That can't be described as "lost coastline". The right
way to describe it is something like "the coastline has retreated
by 5 m".
I'd say the replaced coastline has been lost. After all, it's not
there any more, is it? People do say coastlines retreat, but to me,
that makes less sense than saying that they disappear/are washed
away, are lost, and are replaced by a new coastline. The new
coastline might be more or less the same length as the original one,
but, say, 300 m further inland. Or it might be shorter, if some kind
of headland was washed away. I don't think a new coastline could be
bigger or longer than the old one unless massive earth-moving by
humans was involved - or perhaps, an active volcano.
Suppose that, as a result of a minor weather event, the coastline moves
inland by 1 millimetre along a 300-metre stretch. There is a sense in
which 300m of coastline has been lost, but that statement is misleading.
The inland movement is a much more honest measure of the magnitude of
the change.
A 5-metre change is significant, because that's enough to remove all the
sand from a beach or to undermine a few houses. A 1-mm change is of no
importance, because it's insignificant compared with the daily tidal
variation.
Now, if the coastline really did move 300 m inland, that would be
indicative of a major catastrophe, but it's rare to see a change of that
magnitude.
Well, it depends on the time scale, doesn't it? I didn't realize quite
how common changing coastlines were, even before modern global warning,
until I visited places which had once been on a coastline but were no
more, or where people told me that former villages were now deep
underwater, and certain bits of the coastline were steadily following.
Some places, I realized, weren't mostly built on bedrock, which is what
I was more familiar with.

Still, yes, a stretch of coastline moving 300 m suddenly would be
unusual outside of some natural disaster.
--
Cheryl
Jerry Friedman
2018-04-25 17:00:45 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
Post by occam
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
Post by Janet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the
coastline is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into
the ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably
the 300m is for the entire island,
No, that's 300 m lost in the immediate area, since 1970.
That's a claim that I find difficult to believe. To shorten the
coastline by 300 m, you'd have to cut off a peninsula, or something like
that.
From the limited information on the web site, it looks to me as if 300 m
of coastline has been replaced by another 300 m of coastline, and if
that's the case then I understand occam's objection. That can't be
described as "lost coastline". The right way to describe it is something
like "the coastline has retreated by 5 m".
I'd say the replaced coastline has been lost. After all, it's not there
any more, is it? People do say coastlines retreat, but to me, that makes
less sense than saying that they disappear/are washed away, are lost,
and are replaced by a new coastline. The new coastline might be more or
less the same length as the original one, but, say, 300 m further
inland. Or it might be shorter, if some kind of headland was washed
away. I don't think a new coastline could be bigger or longer than the
old one unless massive earth-moving by humans was involved - or perhaps,
an active volcano.
It can if low-lying land is turned into a bay. In the long term
rising sea levels and increased erosion must shorten the coastline,
but in the short term they can lengthen it.

(And as Ron Draney pointed out, the length of a coastline is not
well defined.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-04-26 07:15:16 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
[ … ]
It can if low-lying land is turned into a bay. In the long term
rising sea levels and increased erosion must shorten the coastline,
but in the short term they can lengthen it.
(And as Ron Draney pointed out, the length of a coastline is not
well defined.)
and cannot be.
--
athel
Richard Yates
2018-04-26 14:44:06 UTC
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On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:15:16 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
[ … ]
It can if low-lying land is turned into a bay. In the long term
rising sea levels and increased erosion must shorten the coastline,
but in the short term they can lengthen it.
(And as Ron Draney pointed out, the length of a coastline is not
well defined.)
and cannot be.
Sure it can; you can define anything. Just specify the shortest length
of measurement and a method of placing it. I have seen definitions
that distinguish "coastline" from "shoreline" where the only
difference is this resolution.

This does not mean, of course, that you have found the "real" length,
or that there cannot be disagreement about which resolution to use,
but you can define it, and geographers do.
Quinn C
2018-04-26 17:15:40 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:15:16 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
[ … ]
It can if low-lying land is turned into a bay. In the long term
rising sea levels and increased erosion must shorten the coastline,
but in the short term they can lengthen it.
(And as Ron Draney pointed out, the length of a coastline is not
well defined.)
and cannot be.
Sure it can; you can define anything. Just specify the shortest length
of measurement and a method of placing it. I have seen definitions
that distinguish "coastline" from "shoreline" where the only
difference is this resolution.
This does not mean, of course, that you have found the "real" length,
or that there cannot be disagreement about which resolution to use,
but you can define it, and geographers do.
I think that was the point: it can't be defined uniquely, once and for
all. There is no one definition that's clearly better than all others.
--
The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable
-- Paul Broca
... who never questioned that men are more intelligent than women
Sam Plusnet
2018-04-25 19:32:51 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
Post by occam
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
Post by Janet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the
coastline is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into
the ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably
the 300m is for the entire island,
No, that's 300 m lost in the immediate area, since 1970.
That's a claim that I find difficult to believe. To shorten the
coastline by 300 m, you'd have to cut off a peninsula, or something like
that.
 From the limited information on the web site, it looks to me as if 300 m
of coastline has been replaced by another 300 m of coastline, and if
that's the case then I understand occam's objection. That can't be
described as "lost coastline". The right way to describe it is something
like "the coastline has retreated by 5 m".
I'd say the replaced coastline has been lost. After all, it's not there
any more, is it? People do say coastlines retreat, but to me, that makes
less sense than saying that they disappear/are washed away, are lost,
and are replaced by a new coastline. The new coastline might be more or
less the same length as the original one, but, say, 300 m further
inland. Or it might be shorter, if some kind of headland was washed
away. I don't think a new coastline could be bigger or longer than the
old one unless massive earth-moving by humans was involved - or perhaps,
an active volcano.
Two things:

1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.

2. Looking at the BBC footage, it seems that the houses were built on
what looks like consolidated sand dunes. Viewed on a sufficiently long
timescale, the sea is only taking back what it once provided.
--
Sam Plusnet
Quinn C
2018-04-25 19:55:39 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
--
The trouble some people have being German, I thought,
I have being human.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.130
David Kleinecke
2018-04-25 21:46:05 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
Cheryl
2018-04-25 22:16:29 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
--
Cheryl
Quinn C
2018-04-25 22:23:52 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch
b***@shaw.ca
2018-04-25 22:28:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
That's nothing. Newspaper offices used to have morgues.

bill
Cheryl
2018-04-25 22:39:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
I've never encountered a war room, but have encountered an office
retreat, well, more than one. Admittedly, there may - ok, will - be a
certain level of rivalry and competition in the workplace, but in my
limited experience, when management is organizing a retreat, they're
trying to convey the idea that we're all in this together, we're all
working as a team for the good of the organization etc etc. Sometimes
there are silly ice-breaking or team building games. Fortunately, I'm
managed to avoid participating in one of these events for some years.
Give me a religious, or even a spiritual-but-not-religious retreat any day.
--
Cheryl
Quinn C
2018-04-25 22:53:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
I've never encountered a war room, but have encountered an office
retreat, well, more than one. Admittedly, there may - ok, will - be a
certain level of rivalry and competition in the workplace, but in my
limited experience, when management is organizing a retreat, they're
trying to convey the idea that we're all in this together,
I don't see the opposition this hints at. War rooms are for working
together in a more intense fashion than usual. You sit at a large table
with a number of people and communicate frequently, as opposed to the
standard arrangement of everyone sitting quietly in their cubicle and
only occasionally walking over to a colleague to talk.

Military vocabulary is frequently used in business to describe the
attitude towards competitors in the marketplace - but sometimes also
the relationship to customers.
--
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is
to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies.
And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.
-- C. A. R. Hoare
Cheryl
2018-04-26 08:27:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
I've never encountered a war room, but have encountered an office
retreat, well, more than one. Admittedly, there may - ok, will - be a
certain level of rivalry and competition in the workplace, but in my
limited experience, when management is organizing a retreat, they're
trying to convey the idea that we're all in this together,
I don't see the opposition this hints at. War rooms are for working
together in a more intense fashion than usual. You sit at a large table
with a number of people and communicate frequently, as opposed to the
standard arrangement of everyone sitting quietly in their cubicle and
only occasionally walking over to a colleague to talk.
Military vocabulary is frequently used in business to describe the
attitude towards competitors in the marketplace - but sometimes also
the relationship to customers.
Military imagery seems much more aggressive to me than team imagery. I
agree that military imagery seems to be popular in business - although,
as I said, I haven't encountered it personally, only in reports and
stories.
--
Cheryl
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-04-26 12:13:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
I've never encountered a war room, but have encountered an office
retreat, well, more than one. Admittedly, there may - ok, will - be a
certain level of rivalry and competition in the workplace, but in my
limited experience, when management is organizing a retreat, they're
trying to convey the idea that we're all in this together,
I don't see the opposition this hints at. War rooms are for working
together in a more intense fashion than usual. You sit at a large table
with a number of people and communicate frequently, as opposed to the
standard arrangement of everyone sitting quietly in their cubicle and
only occasionally walking over to a colleague to talk.
Military vocabulary is frequently used in business to describe the
attitude towards competitors in the marketplace - but sometimes also
the relationship to customers.
Military imagery seems much more aggressive to me than team imagery. I
agree that military imagery seems to be popular in business - although,
as I said, I haven't encountered it personally, only in reports and
stories.
The word "campaign" in "advertising campaign", etc, has military
origins.

"campaign" originally meant "open country".

OED:
campaign, n.

3. Mil. The continuance and operations of an army ‘in the field’ for
a season or other definite portion of time, or while engaged in one
continuous series of military operations constituting the whole, or
a distinct part, of a war. (In German Feldzug.)
The name arose in the earlier conditions of warfare, according to
which an army remained in quarters (in towns, garrisons, fortresses,
or camps) during the winter, and on the approach of summer issued
forth into the open country (nella campagna, dans la campagne) or
‘took the field’, until the close of the season again suspended
active operations. Hence the name properly signifying the ‘being in
the field’, was also applied, now to the season or time during which
the army kept the field, and now to the series of operations
performed during this time. In the changed conditions of modern
warfare, the season of the year is of much less importance, and a
campaign has now no direct reference to time or season, but to an
expedition or continuous series of operations bearing upon a
distinct object, the accomplishment or abandonment of which marks
its end, whether in the course of a week or two, or after one or
more years.

1656 T. Blount Glossographia (at cited word) A word much used
among Souldiers, by whom the next Campaine is usually taken for
the next Summers Expedition of an Army, or its taking the field.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Sam Plusnet
2018-04-27 01:23:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On 26-Apr-18 13:13, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

snip
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
1656 T. Blount Glossographia (at cited word) A word much used
among Souldiers, by whom the next Campaine is usually taken for
the next Summers Expedition of an Army, or its taking the field.
Blount: One of those military families that claim active service going
back to the 10th Century.
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-04-27 10:28:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
1656 T. Blount Glossographia (at cited word) A word much used
among Souldiers, by whom the next Campaine is usually taken for
the next Summers Expedition of an Army, or its taking the field.
Blount: One of those military families that claim active service going
back to the 10th Century.
I think they're moving into the music "industry" these days.
(u-tube link deleted, find your own masochism)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Jerry Friedman
2018-04-26 01:30:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
I've never encountered a war room, but have encountered an office
retreat, well, more than one. Admittedly, there may - ok, will - be a
certain level of rivalry and competition in the workplace, but in my
limited experience, when management is organizing a retreat, they're
trying to convey the idea that we're all in this together, we're all
working as a team for the good of the organization etc etc. Sometimes
there are silly ice-breaking or team building games. Fortunately, I'm
managed to avoid participating in one of these events for some years.
Give me a religious, or even a spiritual-but-not-religious retreat any day.
Okay, but I'm not paying you for it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Cheryl
2018-04-26 08:30:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Cheryl
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
I've never encountered a war room, but have encountered an office
retreat, well, more than one. Admittedly, there may - ok, will - be a
certain level of rivalry and competition in the workplace, but in my
limited experience, when management is organizing a retreat, they're
trying to convey the idea that we're all in this together, we're all
working as a team for the good of the organization etc etc. Sometimes
there are silly ice-breaking or team building games. Fortunately, I'm
managed to avoid participating in one of these events for some years.
Give me a religious, or even a spiritual-but-not-religious retreat any day.
Okay, but I'm not paying you for it.
No problem; I don't mind paying for something I want to attend.

But you wouldn't get me to a work retreat unless you paid me! And,
unless I"m paid overtime, I want it held on work time. I haven't been
told to attend one on my own time, but I've known it to happen.
--
Cheryl
Tony Cooper
2018-04-26 00:00:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:23:52 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
Very common in the US, but "retreat" is just one of the terms used. A
business may have a "retreat" where all of the employees, or a
department, go to some off-site place for a day of "team building" or
somesuch thing. It's supposed to be motivational.

The Republican party recently had a "retreat" at The Greenbrier resort
(very plush) in White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia. Leaders and
movers and shakers only, of course. It was a bicker-fest rather than
motivational, though. What would you expect, though?

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/republicans-gop-retreat-this-is-fine-unity_us_5a74a48ae4b06ee97af25afc
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
2018-04-26 00:11:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
The Republican party recently had a "retreat" at The Greenbrier resort
(very plush) in White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia.
However, there is no reason to believe that they were responsible for
death of a man resulting from their trip there.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HWY18MH005-prelim.pdf
--
Mark Brader "'A matter of opinion'[?] I have to say you are
Toronto right. There['s] your opinion, which is wrong,
***@vex.net and mine, which is right." -- Gene Ward Smith
Tony Cooper
2018-04-26 02:11:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
The Republican party recently had a "retreat" at The Greenbrier resort
(very plush) in White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia.
However, there is no reason to believe that they were responsible for
death of a man resulting from their trip there.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HWY18MH005-prelim.pdf
No, they weren't. But, one of the topics of discussion would have
been how to curtail the man's medical care benefits if he had
survived.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-04-26 10:54:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:00:31 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:23:52 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
Very common in the US, but "retreat" is just one of the terms used. A
business may have a "retreat" where all of the employees, or a
department, go to some off-site place for a day of "team building" or
somesuch thing. It's supposed to be motivational.
In BrE we have "Away Day" as one of the phrases for that.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/awayday

awayday

1.1 A day on which employees meet at a venue away from the workplace
to plan strategy or to discuss a particular issue.

The author of this blog post is negative about many "team building" and
"motivational" activities:
http://creativeconnection.co.uk/top-8-things-you-need-to-consider-when-planning-your-away-day/

Top 8 Things you need to consider when planning your Away Day

<snip>
3: Remember employees are smart individuals: This might sounds like
a ‘no brainer’ but actually you would not believe how many Away Day
planning teams forget this. Forgetting this aspect is why business
society is offering up gimmick after patronising gimmick in the hope
of engaging and exciting our employees (and doing the opposite).
<snip>
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
occam
2018-04-26 13:36:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:00:31 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:23:52 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
Very common in the US, but "retreat" is just one of the terms used. A
business may have a "retreat" where all of the employees, or a
department, go to some off-site place for a day of "team building" or
somesuch thing. It's supposed to be motivational.
In BrE we have "Away Day" as one of the phrases for that.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/awayday
awayday
1.1 A day on which employees meet at a venue away from the workplace
to plan strategy or to discuss a particular issue.
Hmm, for me 'away day' is quite different from a 'retreat'. A retreat is
something you can do on your own or in a group. The aim is to reflect
and retrench. Away day on the other hand smacks of a day trip for a
picnic. I remember British Rail used to advertise 'Away Day tickets' for
such jaunts.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-04-26 15:27:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:00:31 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:23:52 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
Very common in the US, but "retreat" is just one of the terms used. A
business may have a "retreat" where all of the employees, or a
department, go to some off-site place for a day of "team building" or
somesuch thing. It's supposed to be motivational.
In BrE we have "Away Day" as one of the phrases for that.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/awayday
awayday
1.1 A day on which employees meet at a venue away from the workplace
to plan strategy or to discuss a particular issue.
Hmm, for me 'away day' is quite different from a 'retreat'. A retreat is
something you can do on your own or in a group. The aim is to reflect
and retrench. Away day on the other hand smacks of a day trip for a
picnic. I remember British Rail used to advertise 'Away Day tickets' for
such jaunts.
That dictionary entry gives this as the first sense:
1 A day's leave or a day trip.

And:
Origin
1970s: first denoting a type of money-saving return rail ticket.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-04-27 10:33:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:27:35 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:00:31 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:23:52 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from
warfare -
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may
advance or
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones
I've
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to
do
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have
anything
Post by Sam Plusnet
to
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not
averse
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war
rooms"
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
in my office.
Very common in the US, but "retreat" is just one of the terms used.
A
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
business may have a "retreat" where all of the employees, or a
department, go to some off-site place for a day of "team building" or
somesuch thing. It's supposed to be motivational.
In BrE we have "Away Day" as one of the phrases for that.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/awayday
awayday
1.1 A day on which employees meet at a venue away from the
workplace
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
to plan strategy or to discuss a particular issue.
Hmm, for me 'away day' is quite different from a 'retreat'. A retreat is
something you can do on your own or in a group. The aim is to reflect
and retrench. Away day on the other hand smacks of a day trip for a
picnic. I remember British Rail used to advertise 'Away Day tickets' for
such jaunts.
1 A day's leave or a day trip.
Origin
1970s: first denoting a type of money-saving return rail ticket.
I don't believe there are any "money-saving" options left now; unless you
book at least a month ahead for a 5:30a.m. single.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2018-04-26 17:15:38 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:00:31 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:23:52 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much. We've had "war rooms"
in my office.
Very common in the US, but "retreat" is just one of the terms used. A
business may have a "retreat" where all of the employees, or a
department, go to some off-site place for a day of "team building" or
somesuch thing. It's supposed to be motivational.
In BrE we have "Away Day" as one of the phrases for that.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/awayday
awayday
1.1 A day on which employees meet at a venue away from the workplace
to plan strategy or to discuss a particular issue.
Hmm, for me 'away day' is quite different from a 'retreat'. A retreat is
something you can do on your own or in a group. The aim is to reflect
and retrench. Away day on the other hand smacks of a day trip for a
picnic. I remember British Rail used to advertise 'Away Day tickets' for
such jaunts.
It's not a term here, so I would have guessed "awayday" would be a day
a person isn't at the office - day off, business trip, on-site work at
a customer's, whatever the reason.
--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts
agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer
professionals. We cause accidents.
Nathaniel Borenstein
Garrett Wollman
2018-04-26 15:41:44 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
Very common in the US, but "retreat" is just one of the terms used. A
business may have a "retreat" where all of the employees, or a
department, go to some off-site place for a day of "team building" or
somesuch thing. It's supposed to be motivational.
I think today's business jargon often just calls this an "off-site"
(hyphen optional).

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Quinn C
2018-04-26 17:15:39 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Tony Cooper
Very common in the US, but "retreat" is just one of the terms used. A
business may have a "retreat" where all of the employees, or a
department, go to some off-site place for a day of "team building" or
somesuch thing. It's supposed to be motivational.
I think today's business jargon often just calls this an "off-site"
(hyphen optional).
I was racking my brain what it was called in my company - that's
probably it. I may not have remembered because it doesn't sound like
it's even a term.
--
Q: What do computer engineers use for birth control?
A: Their personalities.
Jerry Friedman
2018-04-26 01:35:08 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much.
A religious or organizational retreat is supposed to be a good thing
for the participants, but a military retreat typically isn't and may
be a disaster.

So I think it proves that "retreat" isn't necessarily a military
figure of speech. But I think coastline retreating is a military
figure of speech, as Sam said. Maybe we're supposed to take arms
against a sea of troubles.
Post by Quinn C
We've had "war rooms" in my office.
Which are supposed to be something like actual war rooms, so they're
not like retreats.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-04-26 11:41:38 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:35:08 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much.
A religious or organizational retreat is supposed to be a good thing
for the participants, but a military retreat typically isn't and may
be a disaster.
So I think it proves that "retreat" isn't necessarily a military
figure of speech. But I think coastline retreating is a military
figure of speech, as Sam said.
I'm not sure. "retreat" seems to me the most vaguely suitable single
word even though the coastline is not actively retreating. The material
of the coast is being washed away by the sea. This known as "coastal
erosion".

There is a village in East Anglia named Dunwich. It was a twon until the
sea "claimed" most of it.

As this says (not fully accurate; see the Wikip quotation later):
https://digventures.com/2017/04/7-abandoned-medieval-villages-seen-from-the-air-and-one-from-under-the-sea/

7 Abandoned Medieval Villages Seen From The Air (And One From Under
The Sea)
....
The one that’s now under the sea

<image>

Today, Dunwich (East Anglia) is almost entirely submerged below the
North Sea. On the plus side, that makes it Europe’s largest
underwater medieval site! Once upon a time, however, it was a
thriving port that rivaled London. But then it was battered by a
series of powerful storms in the 13th and 14th centuries. With its
harbour silting up, a failing market, and the town partly destroyed,
and some violent disputes with piratical monks, the storms quite
literally tipped it over the edge and many people simply gave up on
Dunwich. When archaeologists explored the underwater ruins, they
found the ruins of four churches, a toll-house, several shipwrecks
and new evidence of the port that was once the capital [of]
Anglo-Saxon East Anglia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunwich

The loss of "a busy port to ... 14th century storms that swept whole
parishes into the sea"[17] is an urban myth. It appears[18] that the
port developed as a sheltered harbour where the Dunwich River
entered the North Sea. Coastal processes including storms caused the
river to shift its exit 2.5 miles (4 km) north to Walberswick, at
the River Blyth. The town of Dunwich lost its raison d'etre and was
largely abandoned.
** Sea defences were not maintained and coastal erosion progressively
** invaded the town.


This diagram shows Dunwich. There are two coastlines shown. At the right
is that of 1250 and towards the left is that of 2012:
Loading Image...

There is a distance of at least 700 metres between the 1250 and the 2012
coastlines at the south of the diagram.

31 page pdf:
http://www.dunwich.org.uk/resources/documents/Marine_Archaeology_Surveyv1.pdf

Dunwich Marine Archaeology Survey
Professor David Sear
Department of Geography & Environment
University of Southampton
2015
Post by Jerry Friedman
Maybe we're supposed to take arms
against a sea of troubles.
Post by Quinn C
We've had "war rooms" in my office.
Which are supposed to be something like actual war rooms, so they're
not like retreats.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Quinn C
2018-04-26 12:48:31 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:35:08 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Lots of Christian retreats. I once went to a Missouri Synod
Lutheran retreat held at a Franciscan Retreat House.
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to do
with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have anything to
do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about teamwork.
I'm not familiar with that usage. And business is generally not averse
to military language, so that doesn't prove much.
A religious or organizational retreat is supposed to be a good thing
for the participants, but a military retreat typically isn't and may
be a disaster.
So I think it proves that "retreat" isn't necessarily a military
figure of speech. But I think coastline retreating is a military
figure of speech, as Sam said.
I'm not sure. "retreat" seems to me the most vaguely suitable single
word even though the coastline is not actively retreating. The material
of the coast is being washed away by the sea. This known as "coastal
erosion".
"Receding coastline" is also commonly used.
--
Java is the SUV of programming tools.
A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as
long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a
scripting language such as PHP or Perl. - Philip Greenspun
Peter Moylan
2018-04-26 07:26:56 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
You can even have non-religious retreats. The non-religious ones I've
encountered are generally work-related, and don't have anything to
do with meditation or prayer or spirituality. They don't have
anything to do with warfare, either. The organizers talk a lot about
teamwork.
Then you go back to work, and rediscover that the organisational
structure is still designed to discourage teamwork.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2018-04-25 23:32:41 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Does the use of this word in more than one context really generate surprise?

Warfare predates Buddhism, so perhaps it has been pre-plagiarised.
--
Sam Plusnet
Quinn C
2018-04-26 02:24:15 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
1. Talk of coastline "retreat" seems to borrow imagery from warfare -
where the land and waves do battle and the front-line may advance or
retreat.
Thousands who've been to a Buddhist (or similar) retreat will be
surprised to learn that.
Does the use of this word in more than one context really generate surprise?
No. My point is that the basic meaning of "retreat" is just "pulling
back" (re-trahere), "stepping back". No convincing reason has been
given to believe that warfare is the original application, or the
origin of the geological one or any other, rather than just a parallel
application of the same underlying imagery.

Etymologially, retreat is a doublet of retract.
Post by Sam Plusnet
Warfare predates Buddhism, so perhaps it has been pre-plagiarised.
Both predate English, so this point is moot.
--
Performance: A statement of the speed at which a computer system
works. Or rather, might work under certain circumstances. Or was
rumored to be working over in Jersey about a month ago.
Jerry Friedman
2018-04-25 16:57:35 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
Post by Janet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the
coastline is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into
the ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably
the 300m is for the entire island,
No, that's 300 m lost in the immediate area, since 1970.
That's a claim that I find difficult to believe. To shorten the
coastline by 300 m, you'd have to cut off a peninsula, or something like
that.
From the limited information on the web site, it looks to me as if 300 m
of coastline has been replaced by another 300 m of coastline, and if
that's the case then I understand occam's objection. That can't be
described as "lost coastline". The right way to describe it is something
like "the coastline has retreated by 5 m".
The way I read the titles on the video, the coastline has retreated by
300 m. "The sea has pushed the cliff back about 300 m since the 1970s."

(No sound on this computer.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader
2018-04-25 20:33:45 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
That's a claim that I find difficult to believe. To shorten the
coastline by 300 m, you'd have to cut off a peninsula, or something like
that.
No, it's a loss of coastline, not of coastline *length*. As you
already understood, the lost coastline was replaced by a similar
length of new coastline.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "... people are *always* doing stuff ...
***@vex.net that I wish were typos" --Marcy Thompson
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-04-25 10:36:34 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:17:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline
is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into the
ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably the 300m is
for the entire island, calculated by comparing old and new maps.
I think that 300m is local.

Three years ago elsewhere on the East coat of England:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2964728/Britain-s-vanishing-communities-Hundreds-homes-set-disappear-North-Sea-century-rampant-coastal-erosion-devours-roads-villages.html

Britain's vanishing communities: Hundreds of homes set to disappear
into the North Sea over the next century as rampant coastal erosion
devours roads and villages

The coastline has moved around 12 miles in the last 10,000 years and
currently retreats at an average of up to two metres a year.

This varies from location to location, though, and yearly losses of
more than 18m in some places are not unknown.
Post by Peter Moylan
This is currently a live issue in my area, and I imagine it's a growing
problem in many places around the world. As the oceans warm up, storms
are becoming more violent, so coastal erosion is becoming a more serious
problem.
The North Sea is on the continental shelf of Europe and much is on land
that has been flooded very recently in geological terms.
The stretches of coast where this is happening are "soft" rather than
rocky terrain.


This is a hypothetical map of how things were in 8000 BC:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea#/media/File:Doggerland.svg

This is the map today.
Loading Image...
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Harrison Hill
2018-04-26 14:43:54 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:17:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline
is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into the
ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably the 300m is
for the entire island, calculated by comparing old and new maps.
I think that 300m is local.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2964728/Britain-s-vanishing-communities-Hundreds-homes-set-disappear-North-Sea-century-rampant-coastal-erosion-devours-roads-villages.html
Britain's vanishing communities: Hundreds of homes set to disappear
into the North Sea over the next century as rampant coastal erosion
devours roads and villages
The coastline has moved around 12 miles in the last 10,000 years and
currently retreats at an average of up to two metres a year.
This varies from location to location, though, and yearly losses of
more than 18m in some places are not unknown.
Post by Peter Moylan
This is currently a live issue in my area, and I imagine it's a growing
problem in many places around the world. As the oceans warm up, storms
are becoming more violent, so coastal erosion is becoming a more serious
problem.
The North Sea is on the continental shelf of Europe and much is on land
that has been flooded very recently in geological terms.
The stretches of coast where this is happening are "soft" rather than
rocky terrain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea#/media/File:Doggerland.svg
This is the map today.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Nseamap.gif
Ravenspur in Yorkshire was a major port, long since swallowed
up by the sea, and probably more significant than any other port
in the north.

1322 Edward III's invasion of Scotland set sail from Ravenspur.

1399 Half-French Henry Bolingbroke lands at Ravenspur, and is
crowned Henry IV in 1485.

1471:
"After the battle..." of Tewksbury... "Richard of Gloucester had
hastened to London. He had a task to do at the Tower. As long
as the Prince of Wales lived King Henry’s life had been safe,
but with the death of the last hope of Lancaster his fate was
sealed. On the night of May 21 the Duke of Gloucester visited
the Tower with full authority from the King, where he probably
supervised the murder of the melancholy spectator who had been
the centre of fifty years of cruel contention".

All covered by Shakespeare.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-04-27 10:41:32 UTC
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On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 14:43:54 GMT, Harrison Hill
Post by occam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:17:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-cliff
top
-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it
shrink away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it
inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the
coastline is still there, shirley?
If the land mass is shrinking, because parts of it are falling into
the ocean, then its circumference must be decreasing. Presumably the
300m is for the entire island, calculated by comparing old and new
maps.
I think that 300m is local.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2964728/Britain-s-vanishing-co
mmu
nities-Hundreds-homes-set-disappear-North-Sea-century-rampant-coastal-e
rosion-devours-roads-villages.html
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Britain's vanishing communities: Hundreds of homes set to
disappear into the North Sea over the next century as rampant
coastal erosion devours roads and villages
The coastline has moved around 12 miles in the last 10,000 years
and currently retreats at an average of up to two metres a year.
This varies from location to location, though, and yearly losses
of more than 18m in some places are not unknown.
Post by Peter Moylan
This is currently a live issue in my area, and I imagine it's a
growing problem in many places around the world. As the oceans warm
up, storms are becoming more violent, so coastal erosion is becoming
a more serious problem.
The North Sea is on the continental shelf of Europe and much is on
land that has been flooded very recently in geological terms.
The stretches of coast where this is happening are "soft" rather than
rocky terrain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea#/media/File:Doggerland.svg
This is the map today.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Nseamap.gif
Ravenspur in Yorkshire was a major port, long since swallowed
up by the sea, and probably more significant than any other port
in the north.
1322 Edward III's invasion of Scotland set sail from Ravenspur.
1399 Half-French Henry Bolingbroke lands at Ravenspur, and is
crowned Henry IV in 1485.
"After the battle..." of Tewksbury... "Richard of Gloucester had
hastened to London. He had a task to do at the Tower. As long
as the Prince of Wales lived King Henry’s life had been safe,
but with the death of the last hope of Lancaster his fate was
sealed. On the night of May 21 the Duke of Gloucester visited
the Tower with full authority from the King, where he probably
supervised the murder of the melancholy spectator who had been
the centre of fifty years of cruel contention".
All covered by Shakespeare.
This one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenspurn
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Mark Brader
2018-04-25 09:41:56 UTC
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Post by occam
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
No, it was replaced by a similar length of *new* coastline.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "How many killers do we know who'd use a semicolon?"
***@vex.net --Delia Peabody (Nora Roberts as J.D. Robb)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-04-25 10:36:08 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by occam
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
No, it was replaced by a similar length of *new* coastline.
And potentially altering the furthest point from the sea. :-)
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
occam
2018-04-27 21:02:04 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by occam
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
No, it was replaced by a similar length of *new* coastline.
By that token, coastlines are being lost every 6 hours, with a new
coastline replacing the old at every high/low tide?
Sam Plusnet
2018-04-27 22:25:58 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Mark Brader
Post by occam
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
No, it was replaced by a similar length of *new* coastline.
By that token, coastlines are being lost every 6 hours, with a new
coastline replacing the old at every high/low tide?
Each and every wave is an incremental update.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2018-04-28 01:49:29 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by occam
Post by Mark Brader
Post by occam
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the
coastline is
still there, shirley?
No, it was replaced by a similar length of *new* coastline.
By that token, coastlines are being lost every 6 hours, with a new
coastline replacing the old at every high/low tide?
Each and every wave is an incremental update.
The conventional definition of coastline, IIRC, is based on the mean
high tide level.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
RH Draney
2018-04-25 11:03:25 UTC
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Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it shrink
away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
Part of Mandelbrot's early work on fractals involved questions such as
"how long is the coastline of Great Britain?...one of the first
conclusions was that the answer depends upon how long a measuring stick
you use: if it's many miles long, you get one figure; switch to a stick
just a few yards in length, and you measure lots of little inlets and
get a longer total length; measure each grain of sand or soil and the
coastline becomes longer proportionally....

So if "300m of coastline has been lost", perhaps that just means that a
lot of irregularities have been smoothed out, i.e. the island is
becoming rounder....r
J. J. Lodder
2018-04-25 12:22:42 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-
destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it shrink
away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
Part of Mandelbrot's early work on fractals involved questions such as
"how long is the coastline of Great Britain?...one of the first
conclusions was that the answer depends upon how long a measuring stick
you use: if it's many miles long, you get one figure; switch to a stick
just a few yards in length, and you measure lots of little inlets and
get a longer total length; measure each grain of sand or soil and the
coastline becomes longer proportionally....
So if "300m of coastline has been lost", perhaps that just means that a
lot of irregularities have been smoothed out, i.e. the island is
becoming rounder....r
And conversely, a decrease in the area of Britain
doesn't necessarily imply that the coastline has gotten shorter,

Jan
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-04-25 12:23:13 UTC
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Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it shrink
away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
Define 'coastline'. Some dictionaries have your preferred meaning of the
line that separates land and water, others have something more like the
land alongside the sea which would appear to be BBC's interpretation.
OED, notably, has no definition at all apparently assuming you'll know
intuitively!
Tony Cooper
2018-04-25 15:25:08 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 05:23:13 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it shrink
away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
Define 'coastline'. Some dictionaries have your preferred meaning of the
line that separates land and water, others have something more like the
land alongside the sea which would appear to be BBC's interpretation.
OED, notably, has no definition at all apparently assuming you'll know
intuitively!
There are a number of restaurants in Florida that were built on the
shore and have a deck - on pilings - that extends over the sand beach.
The beaches are eroded by the waves in bad weather, and the beach has
to be replaced. Thousands of tons of sand are brought in from Africa
every year to replace the beaches. Evidently, there's some place in
Africa that has sand that makes good beaches.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-04-25 16:10:10 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 05:23:13 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it shrink
away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
Define 'coastline'. Some dictionaries have your preferred meaning of the
line that separates land and water, others have something more like the
land alongside the sea which would appear to be BBC's interpretation.
OED, notably, has no definition at all apparently assuming you'll know
intuitively!
There are a number of restaurants in Florida that were built on the
shore and have a deck - on pilings - that extends over the sand beach.
The beaches are eroded by the waves in bad weather, and the beach has
to be replaced. Thousands of tons of sand are brought in from Africa
every year to replace the beaches. Evidently, there's some place in
Africa that has sand that makes good beaches.
Not just Africa. California has undertaken similar projects in the past
with Uncle Sam's very own sand, for example. Waikiki gets it from
Australia.
David Kleinecke
2018-04-25 16:56:26 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 05:23:13 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it shrink
away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
Define 'coastline'. Some dictionaries have your preferred meaning of the
line that separates land and water, others have something more like the
land alongside the sea which would appear to be BBC's interpretation.
OED, notably, has no definition at all apparently assuming you'll know
intuitively!
There are a number of restaurants in Florida that were built on the
shore and have a deck - on pilings - that extends over the sand beach.
The beaches are eroded by the waves in bad weather, and the beach has
to be replaced. Thousands of tons of sand are brought in from Africa
every year to replace the beaches. Evidently, there's some place in
Africa that has sand that makes good beaches.
Not just Africa. California has undertaken similar projects in the past
with Uncle Sam's very own sand, for example. Waikiki gets it from
Australia.
Peter Moylan
2018-04-26 07:52:01 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Tony Cooper
There are a number of restaurants in Florida that were built on the
shore and have a deck - on pilings - that extends over the sand
beach. The beaches are eroded by the waves in bad weather, and the
beach has to be replaced. Thousands of tons of sand are brought
in from Africa every year to replace the beaches. Evidently,
there's some place in Africa that has sand that makes good
beaches.
Not just Africa. California has undertaken similar projects in the
past with Uncle Sam's very own sand, for example. Waikiki gets it
from Australia.
From Stockton Bight, apparently, which is just across the river from
here. But I gather that that no longer happens. I have no idea when it
stopped.

The sad part is that the good people of Stockton, a northern suburb of
Newcastle, are losing their beach, and if the sea eats into the land any
further then they'll lose a few houses as well. A child-minding centre
has already had to close, because of the risk of the land collapsing
when the children are playing on the grounds.

The blame for this erosion has been placed on a breakwater. The entrance
to Newcastle Harbour is protected on both sides by breakwaters.
Apparently the northern breakwater has modified the ocean currents in
such a way that each storm takes sand and soil away but never brings it
back.

The company that operates the port has said "Not our problem". The state
government apparently has a policy that a certain quota of houses have
to fall into the sea before it will declare that there is an erosion
problem.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
occam
2018-04-26 13:56:55 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Tony Cooper
There are a number of restaurants in Florida that were built on the
shore and have a deck - on pilings - that extends over the sand
beach. The beaches are eroded by the waves in bad weather, and the
beach has to be replaced.  Thousands of tons of sand are brought
in from Africa every year to replace the beaches.  Evidently,
there's some place in Africa that has sand that makes good
beaches.
Not just Africa. California has undertaken similar projects in the
past with Uncle Sam's very own sand, for example. Waikiki gets it
from Australia.
From Stockton Bight, apparently, which is just across the river from
here. But I gather that that no longer happens. I have no idea when it
stopped.
Talk about a business built on shifting sand.
Quinn C
2018-04-25 18:46:50 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 05:23:13 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it shrink
away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
Define 'coastline'. Some dictionaries have your preferred meaning of the
line that separates land and water, others have something more like the
land alongside the sea which would appear to be BBC's interpretation.
OED, notably, has no definition at all apparently assuming you'll know
intuitively!
There are a number of restaurants in Florida that were built on the
shore and have a deck - on pilings - that extends over the sand beach.
The beaches are eroded by the waves in bad weather, and the beach has
to be replaced. Thousands of tons of sand are brought in from Africa
every year to replace the beaches. Evidently, there's some place in
Africa that has sand that makes good beaches.
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.

<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch
Rich Ulrich
2018-04-26 16:36:33 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.

I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
--
Rich Ulrich
Janet
2018-04-26 17:34:10 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Sand from our local beach was sold to Libya for use in water
filtration.

Janet

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Rich Ulrich
2018-04-26 21:43:14 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Sand from our local beach was sold to Libya for use in water
filtration.
By the way, filtering sounds like a relatively innocent use of sand.

When I was reading up on CO2, I discovered that the production
of cement is a major contributor to the man-made increase in CO2,
right after the use of fossil fuels.
--
Rich Ulrich
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-04-27 10:16:10 UTC
Reply
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Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Janet
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Sand from our local beach was sold to Libya for use in water
filtration.
By the way, filtering sounds like a relatively innocent use of sand.
When I was reading up on CO2, I discovered that the production
of cement is a major contributor to the man-made increase in CO2,
right after the use of fossil fuels.
--
I'm afraid you are somewhat misinformed. Cement production is
middle of the range, less than half the contribution of road transport
and domestic electricity and gas supply, and considerably lower than
general manufacturing industry, commercial electricity and gas supply,
and oil and gas production, and a little lower than livestock (WRI
emissions report 2011).
Rich Ulrich
2018-04-27 17:02:17 UTC
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On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 03:16:10 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Janet
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Sand from our local beach was sold to Libya for use in water
filtration.
By the way, filtering sounds like a relatively innocent use of sand.
When I was reading up on CO2, I discovered that the production
of cement is a major contributor to the man-made increase in CO2,
right after the use of fossil fuels.
--
I'm afraid you are somewhat misinformed. Cement production is
middle of the range, less than half the contribution of road transport
and domestic electricity and gas supply, and considerably lower than
general manufacturing industry, commercial electricity and gas supply,
and oil and gas production, and a little lower than livestock (WRI
emissions report 2011).
I should have said "coal, oil and gas" or "fossil resources" instead
of fossil fuels.

However, all of what you list are uses of fossil resources as fuel,
except for the non-fuel uses in manufacturing... and maybe
something about livestock. What I recognize as valid for livestock
is the long-touted production of methane, which is notable because
its greenhouse effect, per unit, is stronger than that of CO2.

(Cattle belches, not farts; methane in the atmosphere has a much
shorter half-life than CO2 - a few years instead of 90+.)
--
Rich Ulrich
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-04-28 06:29:10 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 03:16:10 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Janet
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Sand from our local beach was sold to Libya for use in water
filtration.
By the way, filtering sounds like a relatively innocent use of sand.
When I was reading up on CO2, I discovered that the production
of cement is a major contributor to the man-made increase in CO2,
right after the use of fossil fuels.
--
I'm afraid you are somewhat misinformed. Cement production is
middle of the range, less than half the contribution of road transport
and domestic electricity and gas supply, and considerably lower than
general manufacturing industry, commercial electricity and gas supply,
and oil and gas production, and a little lower than livestock (WRI
emissions report 2011).
I should have said "coal, oil and gas" or "fossil resources" instead
of fossil fuels.
However, all of what you list are uses of fossil resources as fuel,
except for the non-fuel uses in manufacturing... and maybe
something about livestock. What I recognize as valid for livestock
is the long-touted production of methane, which is notable because
its greenhouse effect, per unit, is
much
Post by Rich Ulrich
stronger than that of CO2.
(Cattle belches, not farts; methane in the atmosphere has a much
shorter half-life than CO2 - a few years instead of 90+.
yes
Post by Rich Ulrich
)
--
athel
Bart Dinnissen
2018-04-27 15:47:07 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
By the way, filtering sounds like a relatively innocent use of sand.
Which makes me wonder ... what do non-filtering sounds like?
--
Bart Dinnissen
Peter Moylan
2018-04-27 02:21:14 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Madhu
2018-04-27 05:45:49 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor
countries might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available sand
is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major importer of
sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I heard they sold cows to quatar (air-lifted) when they had a
milk-shortage from the blockade.

But Qatar apparently forgot that grass didn't there and the cows were
going hungry so they had to air-lift fodder from India.

(Hearsay only)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-04-27 07:29:20 UTC
Reply
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Post by Madhu
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor
countries might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available sand
is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major importer of
sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I heard they sold cows to quatar (air-lifted) when they had a
milk-shortage from the blockade.
But Qatar apparently forgot that grass didn't there and the cows were
going hungry so they had to air-lift fodder from India.
(Hearsay only)
Have you read Salmon Fishing in the Yemen?
--
athel
Rich Ulrich
2018-04-27 16:47:10 UTC
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On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 09:29:20 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor
countries might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available sand
is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major importer of
sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I heard they sold cows to quatar (air-lifted) when they had a
milk-shortage from the blockade.
But Qatar apparently forgot that grass didn't there and the cows were
going hungry so they had to air-lift fodder from India.
(Hearsay only)
Have you read Salmon Fishing in the Yemen?
I enjoyed the movie by that name.
Did I miss much by not reading the novel?
--
Rich Ulrich
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-04-27 17:12:06 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 09:29:20 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it
being turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off
poor countries might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-
shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major importer
of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I heard they sold cows to quatar (air-lifted) when they had a
milk-shortage from the blockade.
But Qatar apparently forgot that grass didn't there and the cows
were going hungry so they had to air-lift fodder from India.
(Hearsay only)
Have you read Salmon Fishing in the Yemen?
I enjoyed the movie by that name.
Did I miss much by not reading the novel?
I've read the book, but not seen the film; it was as entertaining as it
was um weird?off-beat? novel.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-04-28 06:26:36 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 09:29:20 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it
being turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off
poor countries might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-
shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major importer
of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I heard they sold cows to quatar (air-lifted) when they had a
milk-shortage from the blockade.
But Qatar apparently forgot that grass didn't there and the cows
were going hungry so they had to air-lift fodder from India.
(Hearsay only)
Have you read Salmon Fishing in the Yemen?
I enjoyed the movie by that name.
Did I miss much by not reading the novel?
I've read the book, but not seen the film; it was as entertaining as it
was um weird?off-beat? novel.
That describes me as well.
--
athel
Cheryl
2018-04-27 08:20:03 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I recently read an article about camels by a visitor to Australia who
expressed surprise at the number of camels you have, given that he only
saw one in the wild. Then he recalled that Australia is, after all, very
big, especially the wild areas.
--
Cheryl
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-04-28 06:28:06 UTC
Reply
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Post by Cheryl
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I recently read an article about camels by a visitor to Australia who
expressed surprise at the number of camels you have, given that he only
saw one in the wild. Then he recalled that Australia is, after all,
very big, especially the wild areas.
When I went to Australia I didn't see any sheep, rabbits, kangaroos,
or, for that matter, camels, at all.
--
athel
b***@shaw.ca
2018-04-28 07:36:35 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Cheryl
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I recently read an article about camels by a visitor to Australia who
expressed surprise at the number of camels you have, given that he only
saw one in the wild. Then he recalled that Australia is, after all,
very big, especially the wild areas.
When I went to Australia I didn't see any sheep, rabbits, kangaroos,
or, for that matter, camels, at all.
Kept your eyes closed the whole time you were there?

bill
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-04-28 07:45:51 UTC
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Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Cheryl
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I recently read an article about camels by a visitor to Australia who
expressed surprise at the number of camels you have, given that he only
saw one in the wild. Then he recalled that Australia is, after all,
very big, especially the wild areas.
When I went to Australia I didn't see any sheep, rabbits, kangaroos,
or, for that matter, camels, at all.
Kept your eyes closed the whole time you were there?
I don't think any of these beasts are abundant on the streets of
Canberra or Perth (or at Sydney airport during heavy rain, for that
matter).
--
athel
b***@shaw.ca
2018-04-28 07:59:03 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Cheryl
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I recently read an article about camels by a visitor to Australia who
expressed surprise at the number of camels you have, given that he only
saw one in the wild. Then he recalled that Australia is, after all,
very big, especially the wild areas.
When I went to Australia I didn't see any sheep, rabbits, kangaroos,
or, for that matter, camels, at all.
Kept your eyes closed the whole time you were there?
I don't think any of these beasts are abundant on the streets of
Canberra or Perth (or at Sydney airport during heavy rain, for that
matter).
I know what you mean. I've lived in three of Canada's major cities
for many years, and never saw a moose, beaver or grizzly.

bill
Peter Moylan
2018-04-28 08:48:40 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Cheryl
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of
it being turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand
off poor countries might be a business rising with the ocean
levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the
available sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that was
Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I recently read an article about camels by a visitor to Australia
who expressed surprise at the number of camels you have, given that
he only saw one in the wild. Then he recalled that Australia is,
after all, very big, especially the wild areas.
When I went to Australia I didn't see any sheep, rabbits, kangaroos,
or, for that matter, camels, at all.
I've lived in Australia for 70 years, and I don't think I've seen a
camel outside a zoo or similar facility. The reason is that the feral
camels tend to congregate in the semi-arid regions where not many people
go. I've seen plenty of sheep, rabbits, and kangaroos, though.

Camels were imported into Australia in the 19th century, as support for
things like inland exploratory expeditions, and for a while they were a
useful means of transporting goods, especially through desert and
semi-desert regions. By the early 20th century they were made redundant
by motorised transport, and their owners simply released them into the
wild. By now they've become a pest, like the rabbits before them.

The long north-south railway through central Australia is called "the
Ghan", named after the camel drivers who once travelled that route. Not
all of the camel drivers were from Afghanistan, but the Australians of
the time couldn't tell the difference.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Cheryl
2018-04-28 11:33:49 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
Yes, and Australia still sells camels to Saudi Arabia.
I recently read an article about camels by a visitor to Australia who
expressed surprise at the number of camels you have, given that he
only saw one in the wild. Then he recalled that Australia is, after
all, very big, especially the wild areas.
When I went to Australia I didn't see any sheep, rabbits, kangaroos, or,
for that matter, camels, at all.
I saw sheep and kangaroos. I don't recall any rabbits or camels, but I
saw lots of other animals, some in the wild and some in zoos or wildlife
parks.
--
Cheryl
J. J. Lodder
2018-04-27 12:23:55 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
I've been told by someone who knows about that kind of thing
that you need 'scherp zand' (lit. sharp sand)
That is, sand with irregular shapes, and sharp edges.

So sand that has been freshly ground by glaciers
during the last ice age.
Sand that has been blown about gets rounded,
and is less suitable.

Jan
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-04-27 12:50:14 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
I've been told by someone who knows about that kind of thing
that you need 'scherp zand' (lit. sharp sand)
That is, sand with irregular shapes, and sharp edges.
So sand that has been freshly ground by glaciers
during the last ice age.
Sand that has been blown about gets rounded,
and is less suitable.
Yup. It's actually sold as 'sharp sand' by builder's merchants
over here.
J. J. Lodder
2018-04-27 14:16:02 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortag
e>
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Rich Ulrich
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
I've been told by someone who knows about that kind of thing
that you need 'scherp zand' (lit. sharp sand)
That is, sand with irregular shapes, and sharp edges.
So sand that has been freshly ground by glaciers
during the last ice age.
Sand that has been blown about gets rounded,
and is less suitable.
Yup. It's actually sold as 'sharp sand' by builder's merchants
over here.
I think that it is in practice the same as 'river sand',

Jan
Peter Moylan
2018-04-28 01:56:57 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
I've been told by someone who knows about that kind of thing that
you need 'scherp zand' (lit. sharp sand) That is, sand with
irregular shapes, and sharp edges.
So sand that has been freshly ground by glaciers during the last
ice age. Sand that has been blown about gets rounded, and is less
suitable.
Yup. It's actually sold as 'sharp sand' by builder's merchants over
here.
I think that it is in practice the same as 'river sand',
That's my new piece of information for today, then. At the hardware
store I've occasionally wondered why they sell mostly river sand, when
coastal sand dunes provide a much bigger potential supply of sand.

I've been using river sand to fill holes in my lawn, but the attraction
there is that it contains more organic material and less salt than ocean
sand.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-04-27 15:11:38 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor
countries might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-sho
rtage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
I've been told by someone who knows about that kind of thing
that you need 'scherp zand' (lit. sharp sand)
That is, sand with irregular shapes, and sharp edges.
So sand that has been freshly ground by glaciers
during the last ice age.
Sand that has been blown about gets rounded,
and is less suitable.
Jan
under the patio or around the slabs? 2 types.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2018-04-27 23:27:59 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shortage>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
I've been told by someone who knows about that kind of thing
that you need 'scherp zand' (lit. sharp sand)
That is, sand with irregular shapes, and sharp edges.
So sand that has been freshly ground by glaciers
during the last ice age.
Sand that has been blown about gets rounded,
and is less suitable.
That does take a bit of the punch out of the old joke about what would
happen if they had communism in the Sahara (after a few years, sand
would be in short supply.)
--
Smith & Wesson--the original point and click interface
HVS
2018-04-27 17:28:02 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shorta
ge>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
I recall reading about 30 years ago of a company in Canada or the US (I
think) that was supplying sand for golf courses in the gulf states.

It made lots of sense -- the local sand was apparently entirely wrong for
bunkers -- but the company did enjoy being able to state that they "sold sand
to Abu Dhabi".
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
J. J. Lodder
2018-04-27 18:56:46 UTC
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Post by HVS
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
We are heading towards a global sand shortage on account of it being
turned into concrete, so rich countries buying sand off poor countries
might be a business rising with the ocean levels.
<https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand-shorta
ge>
That article does not mention that in some places, the available
sand is too powdery, too fine for making concrete.
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
I recall reading about 30 years ago of a company in Canada or the US (I
think) that was supplying sand for golf courses in the gulf states.
It made lots of sense -- the local sand was apparently entirely wrong for
bunkers -- but the company did enjoy being able to state that they "sold sand
to Abu Dhabi".
Look at the dust storms they have in those parts of the world.
What you want for playing is washed sand,
with all the fine particles carries off,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2018-04-27 19:33:57 UTC
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Post by HVS
Post by Rich Ulrich
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
I recall reading about 30 years ago of a company in Canada or the US (I
think) that was supplying sand for golf courses in the gulf states.
It made lots of sense -- the local sand was apparently entirely wrong for
bunkers -- but the company did enjoy being able to state that they "sold sand
to Abu Dhabi".
Next they'll be carrying coals to Newcastle.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-04-27 19:39:01 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
Post by Rich Ulrich
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
I recall reading about 30 years ago of a company in Canada or the US (I
think) that was supplying sand for golf courses in the gulf states.
It made lots of sense -- the local sand was apparently entirely wrong for
bunkers -- but the company did enjoy being able to state that they "sold sand
to Abu Dhabi".
Next they'll be carrying coals to Newcastle.
Have been for years. There is now no mining in any of the areas that once
fed the port at Newcastle.
Peter Moylan
2018-04-28 02:01:40 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
Post by Rich Ulrich
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that was
Iran.
I recall reading about 30 years ago of a company in Canada or the
US (I think) that was supplying sand for golf courses in the gulf
states.
It made lots of sense -- the local sand was apparently entirely
wrong for bunkers -- but the company did enjoy being able to
state that they "sold sand to Abu Dhabi".
Next they'll be carrying coals to Newcastle.
Have been for years. There is now no mining in any of the areas that
once fed the port at Newcastle.
On the other hand, my Newcastle is still this country's biggest coal
export port.

Much to the disappointment of some of us, I should add. The mines up the
Hunter Valley are creating huge pits in what used to be excellent
farmland. Not to mention the economic disruption they cause, or their
contribution to the smog over China and the global warming.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-04-28 10:03:12 UTC
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On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 02:01:40 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
Post by Rich Ulrich
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that was
Iran.
I recall reading about 30 years ago of a company in Canada or the
US (I think) that was supplying sand for golf courses in the gulf
states.
It made lots of sense -- the local sand was apparently entirely
wrong for bunkers -- but the company did enjoy being able to
state that they "sold sand to Abu Dhabi".
Next they'll be carrying coals to Newcastle.
Have been for years. There is now no mining in any of the areas that
once fed the port at Newcastle.
On the other hand, my Newcastle is still this country's biggest coal
export port.
Much to the disappointment of some of us, I should add. The mines up the
Hunter Valley are creating huge pits in what used to be excellent
farmland. Not to mention the economic disruption they cause, or their
contribution to the smog over China and the global warming.
I thought Hunter Valley ("only" a 4 hour drive from Sydney) is where the
wineries are? Oh yes; seems they're not too happy about the opencast
coal-mining.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2018-04-27 22:26:48 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
Post by Rich Ulrich
I was surprised to read, years ago, that Iraq was a major
importer of sand, for construction purposes. Or maybe that
was Iran.
I recall reading about 30 years ago of a company in Canada or the US (I
think) that was supplying sand for golf courses in the gulf states.
It made lots of sense -- the local sand was apparently entirely wrong for
bunkers -- but the company did enjoy being able to state that they "sold sand
to Abu Dhabi".
Next they'll be carrying coals to Newcastle.
Which one?
--
Sam Plusnet
Lewis
2018-04-25 12:52:39 UTC
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Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it shrink
away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
I may be much shorter than it was.
--
Two of the most famous products of Berkeley are LSD and Unix.
I don't think that is a coincidence
Don P
2018-04-27 15:39:05 UTC
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Post by occam
From a recent BBC news item
"About 300m of coastline has been lost since the 1970s."
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-43842584/hemsby-clifftop-home-destroyed-erosion-spanning-40-years
However the concept of 'disappearing coastline' grates. Did it shrink
away into nothing? Is there a space-time warp making it inaccessible?
OK, some cliffs and homes eroded away into the sea. But the coastline is
still there, shirley?
We cannot dispute when some other person judges an expression "grates"
but the general complaint seems deliberately obtuse. When people say the
coastline has been lost, what they mean (considering the context, as we
always may and sometimes must) that the coastline they used to know has
been replaced by a coastline novel to their eyes. It is normal
(statistically common) to say things like this. After a hurricane, when
people say "my house has gone," they do not mean the bricks and timber
vanished: they mean the house they used to know has been transformed
into a heap of wreckage.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ontario, Canada)
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