Discussion:
Antifa
(too old to reply)
David Kleinecke
2017-08-14 20:13:36 UTC
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In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".

It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.

Am I getting this right?
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-14 20:21:12 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!

It's the latest bit of fake news from the alt-right, pretending that the poor
defenseless alt-right hoodlums are constantly being physically attacked by
leftist thugs. You know, how Donnie-John said "from many sides."

The Takeaway even included a voicemail message to that effect from a listener
in their medley of replies to their request for comments on Charlottesville.
Quinn C
2017-08-15 16:17:43 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.

This was Sam Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
--
Woman is a pair of ovaries with a human being attached, whereas
man is a human being furnished with a pair of testes.
-- Rudolf Virchow
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-15 18:04:09 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
This was Sam Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this weekend -- remember
when Athel's knickers got all in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual
-- the "unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the penult?

How else would it be pronounced?

If you stressed the an-, as if it were synchronically "anti-fa," what would you
do with the fa?
David Kleinecke
2017-08-15 23:21:00 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
This was Sam Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this weekend -- remember
when Athel's knickers got all in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual
-- the "unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the penult?
How else would it be pronounced?
If you stressed the an-, as if it were synchronically "anti-fa," what would you
do with the fa?
I now have heard the antifa called the alt-left.

But the German origin of the word "antifa" explains it's
origin. The alt-right is permeated with neo-nazi thought
and it's easy to see how they would pick up German neo-nazi
jargon.

And, this AM, Trump once again defended the alt-right. I
can't believe that will help him with his base.
RH Draney
2017-08-16 06:45:57 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
And, this AM, Trump once again defended the alt-right. I
can't believe that will help him with his base.
Maybe he's decided to focus on his acid for a while....r
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-16 11:51:26 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
And, this AM, Trump once again defended the alt-right. I
can't believe that will help him with his base.
Maybe he's decided to focus on his acid for a while....r
From a rehash of Trump's rants last night, it seemed like Trump invented
"alt-left," but a Princeton historian -- Kevin Cruz or Cruise -- being
interviewed on WNYC at this very moment says Sean Hannity uses it as well.
"False equivalence," he called it.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-16 07:46:59 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
This was Sam Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this weekend -- remember
when Athel's knickers got all in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual
-- the "unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the penult?
What on earth is the silly little man on about? Link, please.
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
How else would it be pronounced?
If you stressed the an-, as if it were synchronically "anti-fa," what would you
do with the fa?
I now have heard the antifa called the alt-left.
But the German origin of the word "antifa" explains it's
origin. The alt-right is permeated with neo-nazi thought
and it's easy to see how they would pick up German neo-nazi
jargon.
And, this AM, Trump once again defended the alt-right. I
can't believe that will help him with his base.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-16 11:55:42 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
This was Sam Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this weekend -- remember
when Athel's knickers got all in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual
-- the "unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the penult?
What on earth is the silly little man on about? Link, please.
Still wondering where silly big Ethel's notion of my stature came from.

Apparently he's forgotten his ignorant comments on the pronunciation of
"Carmina Burana." KAR-mi-na in Latin, kar-MEEN-a most often in English,
which I patiently explained as the typical penultimate-stress pattern in
English, which he then ignorantly pooh-poohed, citing nothing but words
borrowed from other languages.

But, because Ethel is afraid of the truth about his manifold errors, he
won't read this.
CDB
2017-08-16 14:49:19 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa". It seems to be a
cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its meaning seems
to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who come out
to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent. Am
I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a
stress on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on
"antimony", but even there, it's a minority pronunciation,
and maybe defendable because "antimony" doesn't contain a
real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa does. This was Sam
Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this
weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all in a twist
when I mentioned that the most usual -- the "unmarked" --
position for stress in English is on the penult?
English got stressmarks? I say ['anti,fa] from "anti" and "fa(scist).
That's not the "a" of "fascist", but let them try to correct me and they
will see how far they get.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What on earth is the silly little man on about? Link, please.
Still wondering where silly big Ethel's notion of my stature came from.
"We hardly ever have to obfuscate and misdirect our own discussions, you
know. No, we have a marvelous little man who comes by -- oh, several
dozen times a day, usually -- and does most of it for us." Could be
that "little man".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Apparently he's forgotten his ignorant comments on the pronunciation
of "Carmina Burana." KAR-mi-na in Latin, kar-MEEN-a most often in
English, which I patiently explained as the typical
penultimate-stress pattern in English, which he then ignorantly
pooh-poohed, citing nothing but words borrowed from other languages.
Like, say, "carmina"?

The title is in Latin, and the Latin word "carmina" is accented on the
first syllable, as you say. Not many dictionaries have it as an English
word, but Merriam-Webster online says it's the same as in Latin.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carmina

"Carmina" is sometimes used as a woman's name, apparently. Maybe that's
pronounced "Carmeena".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But, because Ethel is afraid of the truth about his manifold errors,
he won't read this.
I'll see if he's in.
b***@aol.com
2017-08-16 15:24:46 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa". It seems to be a
cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its meaning seems
to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who come out
to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent. Am
I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a
stress on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on
"antimony", but even there, it's a minority pronunciation,
and maybe defendable because "antimony" doesn't contain a
real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa does. This was Sam
Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this
weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all in a twist
when I mentioned that the most usual -- the "unmarked" --
position for stress in English is on the penult?
English got stressmarks? I say ['anti,fa] from "anti" and "fa(scist).
That's not the "a" of "fascist", but let them try to correct me and they
will see how far they get.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What on earth is the silly little man on about? Link, please.
Still wondering where silly big Ethel's notion of my stature came from.
"We hardly ever have to obfuscate and misdirect our own discussions, you
know. No, we have a marvelous little man who comes by -- oh, several
dozen times a day, usually -- and does most of it for us." Could be
that "little man".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Apparently he's forgotten his ignorant comments on the pronunciation
of "Carmina Burana." KAR-mi-na in Latin, kar-MEEN-a most often in
English, which I patiently explained as the typical
penultimate-stress pattern in English, which he then ignorantly
pooh-poohed, citing nothing but words borrowed from other languages.
Like, say, "carmina"?
The title is in Latin, and the Latin word "carmina" is accented on the
first syllable, as you say. Not many dictionaries have it as an English
word, but Merriam-Webster online says it's the same as in Latin.
That's carmen sense...
Post by CDB
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carmina
"Carmina" is sometimes used as a woman's name, apparently. Maybe that's
pronounced "Carmeena".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But, because Ethel is afraid of the truth about his manifold errors,
he won't read this.
I'll see if he's in.
Quinn C
2017-08-16 16:20:51 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this
weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all in a twist
when I mentioned that the most usual -- the "unmarked" --
position for stress in English is on the penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal" way
of saying something, unless one has special reasons to do
otherwise. See, Peter even added an explanation in the above!

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markedness>
Post by CDB
I say ['anti,fa] from "anti" and "fa(scist).
That's not the "a" of "fascist", but let them try to correct me and they
will see how far they get.
Well, do you say [haifi] and [saifi]?

There were people around in Germany back in the day claiming that
that's how you should say it (hi-fi and sci-fi, that is, in case
of doubt.)
--
Skyler: Uncle Cosmo ... why do they call this a word processor?
Cosmo: It's simple, Skyler ... you've seen what food processors
do to food, right?
Cartoon by Jeff MacNelley
CDB
2017-08-16 17:56:10 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this
weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all in a
twist when I mentioned that the most usual -- the
"unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the
penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal" way of
saying something, unless one has special reasons to do otherwise.
See, Peter even added an explanation in the above!
My point was that it's a silly term to use on a language that doesn't
mark stress. What point is there anyway, in adding a specialised word
not part of the common language to explain a perfectly clear description
("most usual")?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markedness>
Post by CDB
I say ['anti,fa] from "anti" and "fa(scist). That's not the "a" of
"fascist", but let them try to correct me and they will see how far
they get.
Well, do you say [haifi] and [saifi] There were people around in
Germany back in the day claiming that that's how you should say it
(hi-fi and sci-fi, that is, in case of doubt.)
Is that in German or Gerlish? I said above that I do not use the vowel
of the original full form.
Quinn C
2017-08-16 18:00:23 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this
weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all in a
twist when I mentioned that the most usual -- the
"unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the
penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal" way of
saying something, unless one has special reasons to do otherwise.
See, Peter even added an explanation in the above!
My point was that it's a silly term to use on a language that doesn't
mark stress. What point is there anyway, in adding a specialised word
not part of the common language to explain a perfectly clear description
("most usual")?
Sorry for trying to expand your horizon. I have learned dozens of
specialized words in this group which are unnecessary in ordinary
conversations, and don't feel that I suffered much from it.
Post by CDB
Post by CDB
I say ['anti,fa] from "anti" and "fa(scist). That's not the "a" of
"fascist", but let them try to correct me and they will see how far
they get.
Well, do you say [haifi] and [saifi] There were people around in
Germany back in the day claiming that that's how you should say it
(hi-fi and sci-fi, that is, in case of doubt.)
Is that in German or Gerlish? I said above that I do not use the vowel
of the original full form.
I was handing you an argument.
--
Bug:
An elusive creature living in a program that makes it incorrect.
The activity of "debugging," or removing bugs from a program, ends
when people get tired of doing it, not when the bugs are removed.
CDB
2017-08-16 18:37:33 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation
this weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all
in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual -- the
"unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the
penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal" way
of saying something, unless one has special reasons to do
otherwise. See, Peter even added an explanation in the above!
My point was that it's a silly term to use on a language that
doesn't mark stress. What point is there anyway, in adding a
specialised word not part of the common language to explain a
perfectly clear description ("most usual")?
Sorry for trying to expand your horizon. I have learned dozens of
specialized words in this group which are unnecessary in ordinary
conversations, and don't feel that I suffered much from it.
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
I say ['anti,fa] from "anti" and "fa(scist). That's not the "a"
of "fascist", but let them try to correct me and they will see
how far they get.
Well, do you say [haifi] and [saifi] There were people around in
Germany back in the day claiming that that's how you should say
it (hi-fi and sci-fi, that is, in case of doubt.)
Is that in German or Gerlish? I said above that I do not use the
vowel of the original full form.
I was handing you an argument.
OK, thank you. I will try to figure out how that works.

In the meantime, were the people who voted for [haifi] talking about a
German pronunciation or a German-influenced English pronunciation*
(theirs, IOW)?
________________________________________________________________
*Which I avoided calling GermE because I am an inoffensive creature and
bigly peaceable by nature.
Quinn C
2017-08-16 22:13:22 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation
this weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all
in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual -- the
"unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the
penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal" way
of saying something, unless one has special reasons to do
otherwise. See, Peter even added an explanation in the above!
My point was that it's a silly term to use on a language that
doesn't mark stress. What point is there anyway, in adding a
specialised word not part of the common language to explain a
perfectly clear description ("most usual")?
Sorry for trying to expand your horizon. I have learned dozens of
specialized words in this group which are unnecessary in ordinary
conversations, and don't feel that I suffered much from it.
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
I say ['anti,fa] from "anti" and "fa(scist). That's not the "a"
of "fascist", but let them try to correct me and they will see
how far they get.
Well, do you say [haifi] and [saifi] There were people around in
Germany back in the day claiming that that's how you should say
it (hi-fi and sci-fi, that is, in case of doubt.)
Is that in German or Gerlish? I said above that I do not use the
vowel of the original full form.
I was handing you an argument.
OK, thank you. I will try to figure out how that works.
In the meantime, were the people who voted for [haifi] talking about a
German pronunciation or a German-influenced English pronunciation*
(theirs, IOW)?
________________________________________________________________
*Which I avoided calling GermE because I am an inoffensive creature and
bigly peaceable by nature.
I get lost in your definitions, so I answer based on my own.

From my point of view, it was assumed that the pronunciation of
those two shorthands should be based on their pronunciation in
English. Nobody serious questioned the [ai] in the first syllable,
even though that does not follow German spelling rules. If you
wanted to be funny, you'd adapt the spelling, e.g. "heifei".

So the argument was that we should say [haifi], because that's how
English speakers say it, because the "fi" stands for "fidelity".

It's not unusual to hear such claims about "correct English
pronunciation" which are based on no actual evidence.
--
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-18 12:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation
this weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all
in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual -- the
"unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the
penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal" way
of saying something, unless one has special reasons to do
otherwise. See, Peter even added an explanation in the above!
My point was that it's a silly term to use on a language that
doesn't mark stress. What point is there anyway, in adding a
specialised word not part of the common language to explain a
perfectly clear description ("most usual")?
Sorry for trying to expand your horizon. I have learned dozens of
specialized words in this group which are unnecessary in ordinary
conversations, and don't feel that I suffered much from it.
I say ['anti,fa] from "anti" and "fa(scist). That's not the "a"
of "fascist", but let them try to correct me and they will see
how far they get.
Well, do you say [haifi] and [saifi] There were people around in
Germany back in the day claiming that that's how you should say
it (hi-fi and sci-fi, that is, in case of doubt.)
Is that in German or Gerlish? I said above that I do not use the
vowel of the original full form.
I was handing you an argument.
OK, thank you. I will try to figure out how that works.
In the meantime, were the people who voted for [haifi] talking about a
German pronunciation or a German-influenced English pronunciation*
(theirs, IOW)?
________________________________________________________________
*Which I avoided calling GermE because I am an inoffensive creature and
bigly peaceable by nature.
I get lost in your definitions, so I answer based on my own.
From my point of view, it was assumed that the pronunciation of
those two shorthands should be based on their pronunciation in
English. Nobody serious questioned the [ai] in the first syllable,
even though that does not follow German spelling rules. If you
wanted to be funny, you'd adapt the spelling, e.g. "heifei".
So the argument was that we should say [haifi], because that's how
English speakers say it, because the "fi" stands for "fidelity".
It's not unusual to hear such claims about "correct English
pronunciation" which are based on no actual evidence.
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim seriously, let us
look at the words with three or more syllables in Quinn's post
definitions : stressed on penult? YES
pronunciation: stressed on penult? NO
Nobody: stressed on penult? NO
syllable: stressed on penult? NO
argument: stressed on penult? NO
fidelity: stressed on penult? NO
unusual: stressed on penult? YES
evidence: stressed on penult? NO

I suppose two out of eight isn't too bad for PTD, but I'm still
reminded of what Mark Twain had to say about German
Post by Quinn C
Surely there is not another language that is so slipshod and
systemless, and so slippery and elusive to the grasp. One is washed
about in it, hither and thither, in the most helpless way; and when at
last he thinks he has captured a rule which offers firm ground to take
a rest on amid the general rage and turmoil of the ten parts of speech,
he turns over the page and reads, "Let the pupil make careful note of
the following exceptions." He runs his eye down and finds that there
are more exceptions to the rule than instances of it. So overboard he
goes again, to hunt for another Ararat and find another quicksand. Such
has been, and continues to be, my experience.
I've been quite successful lately in ignoring PTD's posts, but less
successful in ignoring replies to them. From now on I shall try to skip
over posts that begin with anything equivalent to "The nasty little man
said:". If I was as clever as Lewis I'd make my newsreader mark all
such posts as read, but I haven't found a way to do that in Unison.
--
athel
HVS
2017-08-18 12:26:24 UTC
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Raw Message
On 18 Aug 2017, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote

-snip-
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim seriously, let us
look at the words with three or more syllables in Quinn's post
definitions : stressed on penult? YES
pronunciation: stressed on penult? NO
Isn't that stressed on the penultimate syllable --
pro-nun-ci-A-shun? That's sometimes "pro-NUN-ci-A-shun", but in that case
both the 2nd and penultimate are stressed.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nobody: stressed on penult? NO
syllable: stressed on penult? NO
argument: stressed on penult? NO
fidelity: stressed on penult? NO
unusual: stressed on penult? YES
For those who pronounce it with 4 syllables, the stress is
on the 2nd, not the 3rd: un-YOU-zhu-al.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
evidence: stressed on penult? NO
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-18 13:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by HVS
-snip-
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim seriously, let us
look at the words with three or more syllables in Quinn's post
definitions : stressed on penult? YES
pronunciation: stressed on penult? NO
Isn't that stressed on the penultimate syllable --
pro-nun-ci-A-shun? That's sometimes "pro-NUN-ci-A-shun", but in that case
both the 2nd and penultimate are stressed.
Yes. You are right up to a point, but I think of it as stressed on the "nun".
Post by HVS
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nobody: stressed on penult? NO
syllable: stressed on penult? NO
argument: stressed on penult? NO
fidelity: stressed on penult? NO
unusual: stressed on penult? YES
For those who pronounce it with 4 syllables, the stress is
on the 2nd, not the 3rd: un-YOU-zhu-al.
I pronounce it with three, but may four is more canonical. So we have a
score of 2 or maybe 2.5 out of 8.
Post by HVS
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
evidence: stressed on penult? NO
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-18 14:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by HVS
-snip-
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim seriously, let us
look at the words with three or more syllables in Quinn's post
definitions : stressed on penult? YES
pronunciation: stressed on penult? NO
Isn't that stressed on the penultimate syllable --
pro-nun-ci-A-shun? That's sometimes "pro-NUN-ci-A-shun", but in that case
both the 2nd and penultimate are stressed.
Yes. You are right up to a point, but I think of it as stressed on the "nun".
And YOU dare to tell ME how English should be pronounced?????????
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by HVS
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nobody: stressed on penult? NO
syllable: stressed on penult? NO
argument: stressed on penult? NO
fidelity: stressed on penult? NO
unusual: stressed on penult? YES
For those who pronounce it with 4 syllables, the stress is
on the 2nd, not the 3rd: un-YOU-zhu-al.
I pronounce it with three, but may four is more canonical. So we have a
score of 2 or maybe 2.5 out of 8.
Nope.

Not one of those examples is a simple English word. One of them's a bimorphemic
English word.
CDB
2017-08-18 16:11:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by HVS
-snip-
Post by Quinn C
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim
seriously, let us look at the words with three or more
I don't have a dog in this fight, but a couple of these look
definitions : stressed on penult? YES pronunciation: stressed
on penult? NO
Isn't that stressed on the penultimate syllable --
pro-nun-ci-A-shun? That's sometimes "pro-NUN-ci-A-shun", but in
that case both the 2nd and penultimate are stressed.
Yes. You are right up to a point, but I think of it as stressed on the "nun".
And YOU dare to tell ME how English should be pronounced?????????
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by HVS
Nobody: stressed on penult? NO syllable: stressed on penult?
NO argument: stressed on penult? NO fidelity: stressed on
penult? NO unusual: stressed on penult? YES
For those who pronounce it with 4 syllables, the stress is on the
2nd, not the 3rd: un-YOU-zhu-al.
I pronounce it with three, but may four is more canonical. So we
have a score of 2 or maybe 2.5 out of 8.
Nope.
Not one of those examples is a simple English word. One of them's a
bimorphemic English word.
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a native
English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read here) made up
of two Latin elements.

Since it is a new word in English, I consider it fair game, and will
pronounce it as seems best to me.
Quinn C
2017-08-18 16:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a native
English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read here) made up
of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element and one Italian.
--
Novels and romances ... when habitually indulged in, exert a
disastrous influence on the nervous system, sufficient to explain
that frequency of hysteria and nervous disease which we find
among the highest classes. -- E.J. Tilt
CDB
2017-08-18 18:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a
native English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read
here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a development
of "-istes".

IOW: I'm sorry, I have a cold.
Quinn C
2017-08-18 21:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a
native English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read
here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a development
of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I expect
"fasist".
Post by CDB
IOW: I'm sorry, I have a cold.
Then maybe your "s" just sound like "sh"?
--
... man muss oft schon Wissenschaft infrage stellen bei den Wirt-
schaftsmenschen [...] das Denken wird haeufig blockiert von einem
ideologischen Ueberbau [...] Es ist halt in vielen Teilen eher
eine Religion als eine Wissenschaft. -- Heiner Flassbeck
CDB
2017-08-21 08:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not
a native English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have
read here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a
development of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I expect
"fasist".
Post by CDB
IOW: I'm sorry, I have a cold.
Then maybe your "s" just sound like "sh"?
I don't dispute that the pronunciation was Italian, but I thought the
question brought up an interesting point about origins, even without the
rather fuzzy division between Latin and Italian. If a word made of
Latin elements and referring to ancient Roman cultural practices
(fascismo) is borrowed from Italian for incorporation in a German
coinage (antifa[scismus]) and that is later borrowed into English, is it
an Italian or a Latin element?

Italians typically pronounce Latin as they would Italian, and why not.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-21 11:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not
a native English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have
read here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a
development of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I expect
"fasist".
Post by CDB
IOW: I'm sorry, I have a cold.
Then maybe your "s" just sound like "sh"?
I don't dispute that the pronunciation was Italian, but I thought the
question brought up an interesting point about origins, even without the
rather fuzzy division between Latin and Italian. If a word made of
Latin elements and referring to ancient Roman cultural practices
(fascismo) is borrowed from Italian for incorporation in a German
coinage (antifa[scismus]) and that is later borrowed into English, is it
an Italian or a Latin element?
Italians typically pronounce Latin as they would Italian, and why not.
Yesterday on *Meet the Press* Chuck Todd had the author of a (the?) Antifa
manifesto (which does not mean 'platform of a political party' in AmE), who
teaches at Dartmouth, and his pronunciation is ['anti'fa], "auntie-fah,"
two rhyming stressed FATHER vowels.

That's probably definitive. But wouldn't ordinarily be gotten from the spelling.
CDB
2017-08-21 12:50:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly
not a native English word, but a borrowing from German (as
I have read here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a
development of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I
expect "fasist".
Post by CDB
IOW: I'm sorry, I have a cold.
Then maybe your "s" just sound like "sh"?
I don't dispute that the pronunciation was Italian, but I thought
the question brought up an interesting point about origins, even
without the rather fuzzy division between Latin and Italian. If a
word made of Latin elements and referring to ancient Roman cultural
practices (fascismo) is borrowed from Italian for incorporation in
a German coinage (antifa[scismus]) and that is later borrowed into
English, is it an Italian or a Latin element?
Italians typically pronounce Latin as they would Italian, and why not.
Yesterday on *Meet the Press* Chuck Todd had the author of a (the?)
Antifa manifesto (which does not mean 'platform of a political party'
in AmE), who teaches at Dartmouth, and his pronunciation is
['anti'fa], "auntie-fah," two rhyming stressed FATHER vowels.
That's probably definitive. But wouldn't ordinarily be gotten from the spelling.
<ahem> One did manage to get it, mol*, from a combination of spelling
and meaning. <ahem>
___________________________
*I don't resort to [A] in new or foreign words as much as many
Americans. I remember casting scorn here on one such case, "la
Grenouille" a Eurocriminal's nickname, pronounced ['lA ,grAn'wi:], and
being told that it was considered normal.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-22 15:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly
not a native English word, but a borrowing from German (as
I have read here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a
development of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I
expect "fasist".
Post by CDB
IOW: I'm sorry, I have a cold.
Then maybe your "s" just sound like "sh"?
I don't dispute that the pronunciation was Italian, but I thought
the question brought up an interesting point about origins, even
without the rather fuzzy division between Latin and Italian. If a
word made of Latin elements and referring to ancient Roman cultural
practices (fascismo) is borrowed from Italian for incorporation in
a German coinage (antifa[scismus]) and that is later borrowed into
English, is it an Italian or a Latin element?
Italians typically pronounce Latin as they would Italian, and why not.
Yesterday on *Meet the Press* Chuck Todd had the author of a (the?)
Antifa manifesto (which does not mean 'platform of a political party'
in AmE), who teaches at Dartmouth, and his pronunciation is
['anti'fa], "auntie-fah," two rhyming stressed FATHER vowels.
That's probably definitive. But wouldn't ordinarily be gotten from the spelling.
<ahem> One did manage to get it, mol*, from a combination of spelling
and meaning. <ahem>
___________________________
*I don't resort to [A] in new or foreign words as much as many
Americans. I remember casting scorn here on one such case, "la
Grenouille" a Eurocriminal's nickname, pronounced ['lA ,grAn'wi:], and
being told that it was considered normal.
Just now, Brian Lehrer interviewed the Dartmouth professor, Mark Bray, and
asked him about the pronunciation. He offered the _Spanish_ word as the
"correct" version but claimed to be too gentlemanly to correct other people.
Quinn C
2017-08-22 17:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly
not a native English word, but a borrowing from German (as
I have read here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a
development of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I
expect "fasist".
Post by CDB
IOW: I'm sorry, I have a cold.
Then maybe your "s" just sound like "sh"?
I don't dispute that the pronunciation was Italian, but I thought
the question brought up an interesting point about origins, even
without the rather fuzzy division between Latin and Italian. If a
word made of Latin elements and referring to ancient Roman cultural
practices (fascismo) is borrowed from Italian for incorporation in
a German coinage (antifa[scismus]) and that is later borrowed into
English, is it an Italian or a Latin element?
Italians typically pronounce Latin as they would Italian, and why not.
Yesterday on *Meet the Press* Chuck Todd had the author of a (the?)
Antifa manifesto (which does not mean 'platform of a political party'
in AmE), who teaches at Dartmouth, and his pronunciation is
['anti'fa], "auntie-fah," two rhyming stressed FATHER vowels.
That's probably definitive. But wouldn't ordinarily be gotten from the spelling.
<ahem> One did manage to get it, mol*, from a combination of spelling
and meaning. <ahem>
___________________________
*I don't resort to [A] in new or foreign words as much as many
Americans. I remember casting scorn here on one such case, "la
Grenouille" a Eurocriminal's nickname, pronounced ['lA ,grAn'wi:], and
being told that it was considered normal.
Just now, Brian Lehrer interviewed the Dartmouth professor, Mark Bray, and
asked him about the pronunciation. He offered the _Spanish_ word as the
"correct" version but claimed to be too gentlemanly to correct other people.
Hm ... Spanish Wikipedia sees "Antifa" as commonly used in Germany
and the Netherlands:
<https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acci%C3%B3n_Antifascista>

No hint there of the use of any related name in Spanish-speaking
countries.
--
A computer will do what you tell it to do, but that may be much
different from what you had in mind. - Joseph Weizenbaum
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-22 20:27:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly
not a native English word, but a borrowing from German (as
I have read here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a
development of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I
expect "fasist".
Post by CDB
IOW: I'm sorry, I have a cold.
Then maybe your "s" just sound like "sh"?
I don't dispute that the pronunciation was Italian, but I thought
the question brought up an interesting point about origins, even
without the rather fuzzy division between Latin and Italian. If a
word made of Latin elements and referring to ancient Roman cultural
practices (fascismo) is borrowed from Italian for incorporation in
a German coinage (antifa[scismus]) and that is later borrowed into
English, is it an Italian or a Latin element?
Italians typically pronounce Latin as they would Italian, and why not.
Yesterday on *Meet the Press* Chuck Todd had the author of a (the?)
Antifa manifesto (which does not mean 'platform of a political party'
in AmE), who teaches at Dartmouth, and his pronunciation is
['anti'fa], "auntie-fah," two rhyming stressed FATHER vowels.
That's probably definitive. But wouldn't ordinarily be gotten from the spelling.
<ahem> One did manage to get it, mol*, from a combination of spelling
and meaning. <ahem>
___________________________
*I don't resort to [A] in new or foreign words as much as many
Americans. I remember casting scorn here on one such case, "la
Grenouille" a Eurocriminal's nickname, pronounced ['lA ,grAn'wi:], and
being told that it was considered normal.
Just now, Brian Lehrer interviewed the Dartmouth professor, Mark Bray, and
asked him about the pronunciation. He offered the _Spanish_ word as the
"correct" version but claimed to be too gentlemanly to correct other people.
Hm ... Spanish Wikipedia sees "Antifa" as commonly used in Germany
<https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acci%C3%B3n_Antifascista>
No hint there of the use of any related name in Spanish-speaking
countries.
Spanish Antifascista or however they'd spell it. (Radio isn't good for spelling.)
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-21 15:06:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not
a native English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have
read here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a
development of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I expect
"fasist".
Post by CDB
IOW: I'm sorry, I have a cold.
Then maybe your "s" just sound like "sh"?
I don't dispute that the pronunciation was Italian, but I thought the
question brought up an interesting point about origins, even without the
rather fuzzy division between Latin and Italian. If a word made of
Latin elements and referring to ancient Roman cultural practices
(fascismo) is borrowed from Italian for incorporation in a German
coinage (antifa[scismus]) and that is later borrowed into English, is it
an Italian or a Latin element?
...

According to the OED, "fascism" is from Italian "fascio", a bundle, hence

"In Italy: an organized political group, typically advocating radical or
revolutionary change and active within a particular region or locality;
/spec./ any of a number of nationalist groups formed in the period
around the First World War (1914–18) which were ultimately given
coherent organization by the formation of the National Fascist Party in
1921. Usually in /pl./ in form *fasci*.

"The earliest fasci were democratic or socialist popular movements,
most prominently the /Fasci siciliani/ (more fully /Fasci siciliani dei
lavoratori/, 'Sicilian Workers' League'). Subsequently, political
organizations of this kind became associated with nationalist and
anti-communist groups, especially those formed and led by Benito
Mussolini (see FASCISM n. 1a)."

I think that Mussolini's groups noticed the appropriateness of the
fasces early on.
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@aol.com
2017-08-22 03:47:53 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a
native English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read
here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a development
of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I expect
"fasist".
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
IOW: I'm sorry, I have a cold.
Then maybe your "s" just sound like "sh"?
--
... man muss oft schon Wissenschaft infrage stellen bei den Wirt-
schaftsmenschen [...] das Denken wird haeufig blockiert von einem
ideologischen Ueberbau [...] Es ist halt in vielen Teilen eher
eine Religion als eine Wissenschaft. -- Heiner Flassbeck
Dingbat
2017-08-22 06:26:39 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by b***@aol.com
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
Why should Italian phonology geminate the [ʃ] in this context?
I knew an Italian American with <sci> in his name.
His family pronounced it as [ʃi], not [ʃ.ʃi].
b***@aol.com
2017-08-22 15:27:50 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
Post by b***@aol.com
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
Why should Italian phonology geminate the [ʃ] in this context?
I knew an Italian American with <sci> in his name.
His family pronounced it as [ʃi], not [ʃ.ʃi].
Maybe so, but, for "fascis" (the singular of fasces) Wiki says:

Pronunciation[edit]
(Classical) IPA(key): /ˈfas.kis/, [ˈfas.kɪs]
(Ecclesiastical) IPA(key): /ˈfa.ʃis/, [ˈfaʃ.ʃis]
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-22 11:29:36 UTC
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Post by b***@aol.com
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
That's an odd way to put it. Italian _is_ Latin, in a late stage.
b***@aol.com
2017-08-22 15:36:34 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
That's an odd way to put it. Italian _is_ Latin, in a late stage.
No, Italian originated from "vulgar" not Classical Latin and then followed its own evolution, which Ecclesiastical Latin to this day is based on.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-22 15:44:12 UTC
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Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
That's an odd way to put it. Italian _is_ Latin, in a late stage.
No, Italian originated from "vulgar" not Classical Latin and then followed its own evolution, which Ecclesiastical Latin to this day is based on.
Are you claiming that Vulgar (i.e. real) Latin isn't Latin? As opposed to
that artificial stuff that Cicero and Vergil wrote?
b***@aol.com
2017-08-22 16:09:03 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
That's an odd way to put it. Italian _is_ Latin, in a late stage.
No, Italian originated from "vulgar" not Classical Latin and then followed its own evolution, which Ecclesiastical Latin to this day is based on.
Are you claiming that Vulgar (i.e. real) Latin isn't Latin? As opposed to
that artificial stuff that Cicero and Vergil wrote?
No, I'm claiming that it's not Classical Latin, read my post.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-22 20:26:24 UTC
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Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
That's an odd way to put it. Italian _is_ Latin, in a late stage.
No, Italian originated from "vulgar" not Classical Latin and then followed its own evolution, which Ecclesiastical Latin to this day is based on.
Are you claiming that Vulgar (i.e. real) Latin isn't Latin? As opposed to
that artificial stuff that Cicero and Vergil wrote?
No, I'm claiming that it's not Classical Latin, read my post.
No one has ever suggested that it was. "Classical Latin" was artificial and a
literary dead end.

The earliest Latin inscriptions and the earliest texts -- Plautus -- are far
from Cicero.
b***@aol.com
2017-08-23 00:24:10 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
That's an odd way to put it. Italian _is_ Latin, in a late stage.
No, Italian originated from "vulgar" not Classical Latin and then followed its own evolution, which Ecclesiastical Latin to this day is based on.
Are you claiming that Vulgar (i.e. real) Latin isn't Latin? As opposed to
that artificial stuff that Cicero and Vergil wrote?
No, I'm claiming that it's not Classical Latin, read my post.
No one has ever suggested that it was.
But you wrote that my initial claim was odd, whereas neither Classical nor
Vulgar Latin had a pronunciation of [ˈfa(ʃ.)ʃes] for "fasces", and that
pronunciation in Ecclesiastical Latin was obviously derived from Italian,
at a stage when Italian had already transformed the Vulgar Latin pronunciation
of the word. Where's the oddity?

"Classical Latin" was artificial and a
Post by Peter T. Daniels
literary dead end.
??? Classical Latin _is_ Latin. It's a retronym, as it was long referred to as just Latin until "Sermo Vulgaris" came along.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The earliest Latin inscriptions and the earliest texts -- Plautus -- are far
from Cicero.
Oliver Cromm
2017-08-22 12:30:56 UTC
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Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a
native English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read
here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a development
of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I expect
"fasist".
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
Fine, but that word wasn't borrowed into English, only fascist,
fascism, and, without intervening Italian, fascicle.

And which words borrowed from Latin into English have the [sk] or
[S] sounds before e or i?

sce words:

abscess, viscera, scene, descent, scenario, crescent, descendant,
susceptible, obscene, nascent, ascertain, asceticism (from Greek,
but still with "Latin s") ...

sci words (omitting those that have another vowel following):

rescind, discipline, proboscis - ah, finally one that *can* have
[sk], but they're rare -, oscillate, abscissa, fascicle, scissors,
disciple, rescission, scintilla ...
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-22 13:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oliver Cromm
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a
native English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read
here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a development
of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I expect
"fasist".
"Fasces" is [ˈfas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[ˈfaʃ.ʃes] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
Fine, but that word wasn't borrowed into English, only fascist,
fascism, and, without intervening Italian, fascicle.
And which words borrowed from Latin into English have the [sk] or
[S] sounds before e or i?
abscess, viscera, scene, descent, scenario, crescent, descendant,
susceptible, obscene, nascent, ascertain, asceticism (from Greek,
but still with "Latin s") ...
rescind, discipline, proboscis - ah, finally one that *can* have
[sk], but they're rare -,
I've probably heard it with [sk] more than with [s], weird though it
seems to me.
Post by Oliver Cromm
oscillate, abscissa, fascicle, scissors,
disciple, rescission, scintilla ...
BrE "sceptic", influenced by Hellenizers.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-22 16:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 07:29:18 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Oliver Cromm
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a
native English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read
here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a development
of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I expect
"fasist".
"Fasces" is [?fas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[?fa?.?es] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
Fine, but that word wasn't borrowed into English, only fascist,
fascism, and, without intervening Italian, fascicle.
And which words borrowed from Latin into English have the [sk] or
[S] sounds before e or i?
abscess, viscera, scene, descent, scenario, crescent, descendant,
susceptible, obscene, nascent, ascertain, asceticism (from Greek,
but still with "Latin s") ...
rescind, discipline, proboscis - ah, finally one that *can* have
[sk], but they're rare -,
I've probably heard it with [sk] more than with [s], weird though it
seems to me.
Post by Oliver Cromm
oscillate, abscissa, fascicle, scissors,
disciple, rescission, scintilla ...
BrE "sceptic", influenced by Hellenizers.
We need to avoid confusion betwen "sceptic" and "septic".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Quinn C
2017-08-22 16:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 07:29:18 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Oliver Cromm
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a
native English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read
here) made up of two Latin elements.
I'd say one Greek element
Right. Scusi.
Post by Quinn C
and one Italian.
Unh, sort of. They had the fasces in mind, and "ista" is a development
of "-istes".
Sure, they're quite close. but the Italian origin explains the
pronunciation "fashist". If borrowed directly from Latin, I expect
"fasist".
"Fasces" is [?fas.kes] in Classical Latin, though it has become
[?fa?.?es] in Ecclesiastical Latin, under the influence of Italian.
Fine, but that word wasn't borrowed into English, only fascist,
fascism, and, without intervening Italian, fascicle.
And which words borrowed from Latin into English have the [sk] or
[S] sounds before e or i?
abscess, viscera, scene, descent, scenario, crescent, descendant,
susceptible, obscene, nascent, ascertain, asceticism (from Greek,
but still with "Latin s") ...
rescind, discipline, proboscis - ah, finally one that *can* have
[sk], but they're rare -,
I've probably heard it with [sk] more than with [s], weird though it
seems to me.
Post by Oliver Cromm
oscillate, abscissa, fascicle, scissors,
disciple, rescission, scintilla ...
BrE "sceptic", influenced by Hellenizers.
We need to avoid confusion betwen "sceptic" and "septic".
True. "Sceptic Tank" is a great name for a "think tank". For added
confusion, add a logo showing an armored vehicle.
--
XML combines all the inefficiency of text-based formats with most
of the unreadability of binary formats.
Oren Tirosh, comp.lang.python
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-18 17:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by HVS
Post by Quinn C
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim
seriously, let us look at the words with three or more
definitions : stressed on penult? YES pronunciation: stressed
on penult? NO
Isn't that stressed on the penultimate syllable --
pro-nun-ci-A-shun? That's sometimes "pro-NUN-ci-A-shun", but in
that case both the 2nd and penultimate are stressed.
Yes. You are right up to a point, but I think of it as stressed on the "nun".
And YOU dare to tell ME how English should be pronounced?????????
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by HVS
Nobody: stressed on penult? NO syllable: stressed on penult?
NO argument: stressed on penult? NO fidelity: stressed on
penult? NO unusual: stressed on penult? YES
For those who pronounce it with 4 syllables, the stress is on the
2nd, not the 3rd: un-YOU-zhu-al.
I pronounce it with three, but may four is more canonical. So we
have a score of 2 or maybe 2.5 out of 8.
Nope.
Not one of those examples is a simple English word. One of them's a
bimorphemic English word.
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a native
English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read here) made up
of two Latin elements.
Since it is a new word in English, I consider it fair game, and will
pronounce it as seems best to me.
But no one these days knows that it originated in Germany decades ago; it simply
turned up in the media one day, so it will be treated as a native English word
-- and that's confirmed by auditory media.
Quinn C
2017-08-18 18:11:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
The object of contention was "antifa", which is certainly not a native
English word, but a borrowing from German (as I have read here) made up
of two Latin elements.
Since it is a new word in English, I consider it fair game, and will
pronounce it as seems best to me.
But no one these days knows that it originated in Germany decades ago; it simply
turned up in the media one day, so it will be treated as a native English word
-- and that's confirmed by auditory media.
With any consistency? Must be fake news media, then. As I've
reported here, I heard it from three people so far, with three
different pronunciations.
--
... man muss oft schon Wissenschaft infrage stellen bei den Wirt-
schaftsmenschen [...] das Denken wird haeufig blockiert von einem
ideologischen Ueberbau [...] Es ist halt in vielen Teilen eher
eine Religion als eine Wissenschaft. -- Heiner Flassbeck
Quinn C
2017-08-18 16:03:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by HVS
-snip-
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim seriously, let us
look at the words with three or more syllables in Quinn's post
definitions : stressed on penult? YES
pronunciation: stressed on penult? NO
Isn't that stressed on the penultimate syllable --
pro-nun-ci-A-shun? That's sometimes "pro-NUN-ci-A-shun", but in that case
both the 2nd and penultimate are stressed.
Yes. You are right up to a point, but I think of it as stressed on the "nun".
For me, clearly pro-nun-SYAY-shun. Saying it in 5 syllables, which
would be more likely in Non-AmE, results in more need for a
secondary stress, but I'm sure back when I learned BrE in school,
the stress was firmly on the AY already. This is a word that
foreign learners learn early and use regularly.
--
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is
to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies.
And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.
-- C. A. R. Hoare
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-18 16:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by HVS
-snip-
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim seriously, let us
look at the words with three or more syllables in Quinn's post
definitions : stressed on penult? YES
pronunciation: stressed on penult? NO
Isn't that stressed on the penultimate syllable --
pro-nun-ci-A-shun? That's sometimes "pro-NUN-ci-A-shun", but in that case
both the 2nd and penultimate are stressed.
Yes. You are right up to a point, but I think of it as stressed on the "nun".
For me, clearly pro-nun-SYAY-shun. Saying it in 5 syllables, which
would be more likely in Non-AmE, results in more need for a
secondary stress, but I'm sure back when I learned BrE in school,
the stress was firmly on the AY already. This is a word that
foreign learners learn early and use regularly.
Five syllables for this American, with the primary stress on
the penult.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2017-08-20 03:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by HVS
-snip-
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim seriously, let us
look at the words with three or more syllables in Quinn's post
definitions : stressed on penult? YES
pronunciation: stressed on penult? NO
Isn't that stressed on the penultimate syllable --
pro-nun-ci-A-shun? That's sometimes "pro-NUN-ci-A-shun", but in that case
both the 2nd and penultimate are stressed.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nobody: stressed on penult? NO
syllable: stressed on penult? NO
argument: stressed on penult? NO
fidelity: stressed on penult? NO
unusual: stressed on penult? YES
For those who pronounce it with 4 syllables, the stress is
on the 2nd, not the 3rd: un-YOU-zhu-al.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
evidence: stressed on penult? NO
I used to think that the normal stress pattern for English was to stress
the antepenultimate syllable, but there are so many exceptions that I
gave up on that "rule".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
David Kleinecke
2017-08-20 04:30:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by HVS
-snip-
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim seriously, let us
look at the words with three or more syllables in Quinn's post
definitions : stressed on penult? YES
pronunciation: stressed on penult? NO
Isn't that stressed on the penultimate syllable --
pro-nun-ci-A-shun? That's sometimes "pro-NUN-ci-A-shun", but in that case
both the 2nd and penultimate are stressed.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nobody: stressed on penult? NO
syllable: stressed on penult? NO
argument: stressed on penult? NO
fidelity: stressed on penult? NO
unusual: stressed on penult? YES
For those who pronounce it with 4 syllables, the stress is
on the 2nd, not the 3rd: un-YOU-zhu-al.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
evidence: stressed on penult? NO
I used to think that the normal stress pattern for English was to stress
the antepenultimate syllable, but there are so many exceptions that I
gave up on that "rule".
My theory is that there are two stress patterns in English.
In one pattern the first and third and fifth and so on are
stressed. In the other second, fourth, sixth ...

Even in Latinate words.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-20 12:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Moylan
I used to think that the normal stress pattern for English was to stress
the antepenultimate syllable, but there are so many exceptions that I
gave up on that "rule".
My theory is that there are two stress patterns in English.
In one pattern the first and third and fifth and so on are
stressed. In the other second, fourth, sixth ...
Counting from the beginning of the word? How's that working out for you?
Post by David Kleinecke
Even in Latinate words.
OTOH, is there any word that _wouldn't_ apply to? If you have principles for
deciding which one any particular word belongs to, are they simpler than the
Chomsky-Halle principles?
David Kleinecke
2017-08-20 17:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Moylan
I used to think that the normal stress pattern for English was to stress
the antepenultimate syllable, but there are so many exceptions that I
gave up on that "rule".
My theory is that there are two stress patterns in English.
In one pattern the first and third and fifth and so on are
stressed. In the other second, fourth, sixth ...
Counting from the beginning of the word? How's that working out for you?
Post by David Kleinecke
Even in Latinate words.
OTOH, is there any word that _wouldn't_ apply to? If you have principles for
deciding which one any particular word belongs to, are they simpler than the
Chomsky-Halle principles?
I consider the stress phonemic - a binary feature of words.
But to make this really stick I have to postulate a juncture
as in "black-bird" (stressed as two words but modified by the
juncture. I don't insist on this analysis but it seems to fit
the data quit well.

This is only vaguely related to Chomsky-Halle. It is more like
the way a tone language is handled.
Richard Heathfield
2017-08-20 06:57:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 20/08/17 04:40, Peter Moylan wrote:

<snip>
Post by Peter Moylan
I used to think that the normal stress pattern for English was to stress
the antepenultimate syllable, but there are so many exceptions that I
gave up on that "rule".
There is no one rule that covers all bases. Here are some examples,
counting from the end syllable.

Ultimate:

* Beware
* Amaze
* Relax

Penultimate:

* Later
* Definition
* Pronunciation (five syllables: pro - nun - see - yay' - shun)

Antepenultimate:

* Caravan
* Octagenarian
* Hexadecimal

Preantepenultimate

* Determinism
* Nucleotide
* Parliament (and there will be some who argue that the word only has
three syllables, but I'm not one of them)

And we haven't yet got to 'antedisestablishmentarianism', which plays
the same game, only better. (What comes before 'preantepenultimate'?)
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-20 12:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Moylan
I used to think that the normal stress pattern for English was to stress
the antepenultimate syllable, but there are so many exceptions that I
gave up on that "rule".
There is no one rule that covers all bases. Here are some examples,
counting from the end syllable.
* Beware
* Amaze
* Relax
* Later
* Definition
* Pronunciation (five syllables: pro - nun - see - yay' - shun)
* Caravan
* Octagenarian
* Hexadecimal
Preantepenultimate
* Determinism
* Nucleotide
* Parliament (and there will be some who argue that the word only has
three syllables, but I'm not one of them)
Just as ignorant as the other "killfiler" who chose to weigh in on a topic
he understands nothing about.
Post by Richard Heathfield
And we haven't yet got to 'antedisestablishmentarianism', which plays
the same game, only better. (What comes before 'preantepenultimate'?)
musika
2017-08-18 13:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've been quite successful lately in ignoring PTD's posts, but less
successful in ignoring replies to them. From now on I shall try to skip
over posts that begin with anything equivalent to "The nasty little man
said:". If I was as clever as Lewis I'd make my newsreader mark all such
posts as read, but I haven't found a way to do that in Unison.
Have you tried playing with {Menu} Unison > Preferences > Rules.
It's a bit basic but you might come up with something.
--
Ray
UK
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-18 13:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by musika
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've been quite successful lately in ignoring PTD's posts, but less
successful in ignoring replies to them. From now on I shall try to skip
over posts that begin with anything equivalent to "The nasty little man
said:". If I was as clever as Lewis I'd make my newsreader mark all
such posts as read, but I haven't found a way to do that in Unison.
Have you tried playing with {Menu} Unison > Preferences > Rules.
It's a bit basic but you might come up with something.
Yes. The older version I'm using on this computer offers "From", "Date
posted", "Subject", "Size", "Newsgroup", "Crossposts" and "Crosspost
count", none of which do what I want. The newer verson on my portable
adds "References" to that list, and I had high hopes, but it doesn't
seem to do anything (nothing I want, anyway).
--
athel
musika
2017-08-18 13:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by musika
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've been quite successful lately in ignoring PTD's posts, but less
successful in ignoring replies to them. From now on I shall try to
skip over posts that begin with anything equivalent to "The nasty
little man said:". If I was as clever as Lewis I'd make my newsreader
mark all such posts as read, but I haven't found a way to do that in
Unison.
Have you tried playing with {Menu} Unison > Preferences > Rules.
It's a bit basic but you might come up with something.
Yes. The older version I'm using on this computer offers "From", "Date
posted", "Subject", "Size", "Newsgroup", "Crossposts" and "Crosspost
count", none of which do what I want. The newer verson on my portable
adds "References" to that list, and I had high hopes, but it doesn't
seem to do anything (nothing I want, anyway).
version 2.1.10 adds "Score" and "Message ID" to the list.
The last version produced was 2.2 which is now available free on the
panic.com website.
--
Ray
UK
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-18 14:37:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by musika
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by musika
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've been quite successful lately in ignoring PTD's posts, but less
successful in ignoring replies to them. From now on I shall try to skip
over posts that begin with anything equivalent to "The nasty little man
said:". If I was as clever as Lewis I'd make my newsreader mark all
such posts as read, but I haven't found a way to do that in Unison.
Have you tried playing with {Menu} Unison > Preferences > Rules.
It's a bit basic but you might come up with something.
Yes. The older version I'm using on this computer offers "From", "Date
posted", "Subject", "Size", "Newsgroup", "Crossposts" and "Crosspost
count", none of which do what I want. The newer verson on my portable
adds "References" to that list, and I had high hopes, but it doesn't
seem to do anything (nothing I want, anyway).
version 2.1.10 adds "Score" and "Message ID" to the list.
The last version produced was 2.2 which is now available free on the
panic.com website.
Yes, you're right. I'd forgotten about them. (I'm not on my portable at
the moment.) But what do they mean? What does "References" mean for
that matter? I haven't found any explanation on the web, but maybe it's
there somewhere. My portable has 2.2, but here I'm on 1.8.1 -- the
computer's too old to run anything more recent.
--
athel
Quinn C
2017-08-18 16:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by musika
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by musika
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've been quite successful lately in ignoring PTD's posts, but less
successful in ignoring replies to them. From now on I shall try to skip
over posts that begin with anything equivalent to "The nasty little man
said:". If I was as clever as Lewis I'd make my newsreader mark all
such posts as read, but I haven't found a way to do that in Unison.
Have you tried playing with {Menu} Unison > Preferences > Rules.
It's a bit basic but you might come up with something.
Yes. The older version I'm using on this computer offers "From", "Date
posted", "Subject", "Size", "Newsgroup", "Crossposts" and "Crosspost
count", none of which do what I want. The newer verson on my portable
adds "References" to that list, and I had high hopes, but it doesn't
seem to do anything (nothing I want, anyway).
version 2.1.10 adds "Score" and "Message ID" to the list.
The last version produced was 2.2 which is now available free on the
panic.com website.
Yes, you're right. I'd forgotten about them. (I'm not on my portable at
the moment.) But what do they mean? What does "References" mean for
that matter? I haven't found any explanation on the web, but maybe it's
there somewhere. My portable has 2.2, but here I'm on 1.8.1 -- the
computer's too old to run anything more recent.
My posts have the string "crommatograph.info" in the MessageID, so
you could use that to filter my posts (by MessageID) or Follow-Ups
to my posts (by References). People who use Google Groups,
however, have no personally identifying MessageID.

In my Software, if I want to ignore all answers to a person, I set
their posts (identified by name, email address, or whatever works)
not only to "Read", but also to "Ignore" - this flag will be
copied down the tree.
--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-22 13:51:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by musika
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by musika
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've been quite successful lately in ignoring PTD's posts, but less
successful in ignoring replies to them. From now on I shall try to skip
over posts that begin with anything equivalent to "The nasty little man
said:". If I was as clever as Lewis I'd make my newsreader mark all
such posts as read, but I haven't found a way to do that in Unison.
Have you tried playing with {Menu} Unison > Preferences > Rules.
It's a bit basic but you might come up with something.
Yes. The older version I'm using on this computer offers "From", "Date
posted", "Subject", "Size", "Newsgroup", "Crossposts" and "Crosspost
count", none of which do what I want. The newer verson on my portable
adds "References" to that list, and I had high hopes, but it doesn't
seem to do anything (nothing I want, anyway).
version 2.1.10 adds "Score" and "Message ID" to the list.
The last version produced was 2.2 which is now available free on the
panic.com website.
Yes, you're right. I'd forgotten about them. (I'm not on my portable at
the moment.) But what do they mean? What does "References" mean for
that matter? I haven't found any explanation on the web, but maybe it's
there somewhere. My portable has 2.2, but here I'm on 1.8.1 -- the
computer's too old to run anything more recent.
My posts have the string "crommatograph.info" in the MessageID, so
you could use that to filter my posts (by MessageID) or Follow-Ups
to my posts (by References). People who use Google Groups,
however, have no personally identifying MessageID.
Ah. Another of the great advantages of Google Groups that we're
sometimes told about.
Post by Quinn C
In my Software, if I want to ignore all answers to a person, I set
their posts (identified by name, email address, or whatever works)
not only to "Read", but also to "Ignore" - this flag will be
copied down the tree.
Unison 1.8.1 doesn't seem to offer Ignore as an action. Maybe Unison
2.2 does, but I'll need to try that at home.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-18 14:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[someone has screwed up the levels of chevrons both above and below]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation
this weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all
in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual -- the
"unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the
penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal" way
of saying something, unless one has special reasons to do
otherwise. See, Peter even added an explanation in the above!
My point was that it's a silly term to use on a language that
doesn't mark stress. What point is there anyway, in adding a
specialised word not part of the common language to explain a
perfectly clear description ("most usual")?
Sorry for trying to expand your horizon. I have learned dozens of
specialized words in this group which are unnecessary in ordinary
conversations, and don't feel that I suffered much from it.
<...>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
In case anyone is tempted to take PTD's silly claim seriously, let us
look at the words with three or more syllables in Quinn's post
definitions : stressed on penult? YES
pronunciation: stressed on penult? NO
Nobody: stressed on penult? NO
syllable: stressed on penult? NO
argument: stressed on penult? NO
fidelity: stressed on penult? NO
unusual: stressed on penult? YES
evidence: stressed on penult? NO
I suppose two out of eight
Especially since he's wrong about one of them, and the other one is native but bimorphemic.

Ethel Cornish-Moron still doesn't understand the difference between native,
Germanic, words -- the considerable majority of the vocabulary in spoken
discourse -- and words or affixes borrowed from French, Latin, or Greek?
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
isn't too bad for PTD, but I'm still
reminded of what Mark Twain had to say about German
I've been quite successful lately in ignoring PTD's posts,
Your loss, since reading them would have stopped you from making several stupid mistakes.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but less
successful in ignoring replies to them. From now on I shall try to skip
over posts that begin with anything equivalent to "The nasty little man
said:". If I was as clever as Lewis I'd make my newsreader mark all
such posts as read, but I haven't found a way to do that in Unison.
Try doing it in harmony.
Quinn C
2017-08-16 18:10:57 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this
weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all in a
twist when I mentioned that the most usual -- the
"unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the
penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal" way of
saying something, unless one has special reasons to do otherwise.
See, Peter even added an explanation in the above!
My point was that it's a silly term to use on a language that doesn't
mark stress.
I forgot to comment on that silly sentence. I expect you consider
the following silly as well: "a marked increase in temperature",
"he has a marked drawl", "his win made him a marked man". All
things that we don't commonly use *graphical* marks for - which
seem to be the only ones you accept.
--
Novels and romances ... when habitually indulged in, exert a
disastrous influence on the nervous system, sufficient to explain
that frequency of hysteria and nervous disease which we find
among the highest classes. -- E.J. Tilt
CDB
2017-08-16 19:49:58 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this
weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all in a
twist when I mentioned that the most usual -- the
"unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the
penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal" way
of saying something, unless one has special reasons to do
otherwise. See, Peter even added an explanation in the above!
My point was that it's a silly term to use on a language that
doesn't mark stress.
I forgot to comment on that silly sentence. I expect you consider
the following silly as well: "a marked increase in temperature", "he
has a marked drawl", "his win made him a marked man". All things that
we don't commonly use *graphical* marks for - which seem to be the
only ones you accept.
I accept your examples because they mean "noticeable" or encapsulate a
reference to the Book of Genesis, where we meet the first "marked man".
(I don't insist on that; he could have a figurative target on his back.)

Those do not seem to be possible meanings in the phrase "unmarked
position", where the only interpretation that I can see implies the lack
of some detectable sign or mark. It would work well in describing
Spanish orthography, which expects word-stress on the penult, and marks
other stressed syllables with an accent, but still seems silly to me in
the case of English.
--
Silliness is characteristic of sheep, and so always on topic.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-16 21:15:29 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this
weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all in a
twist when I mentioned that the most usual -- the
"unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the
penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal" way
of saying something, unless one has special reasons to do
otherwise. See, Peter even added an explanation in the above!
My point was that it's a silly term to use on a language that
doesn't mark stress.
I forgot to comment on that silly sentence. I expect you consider
the following silly as well: "a marked increase in temperature", "he
has a marked drawl", "his win made him a marked man". All things that
we don't commonly use *graphical* marks for - which seem to be the
only ones you accept.
I accept your examples because they mean "noticeable" or encapsulate a
reference to the Book of Genesis, where we meet the first "marked man".
(I don't insist on that; he could have a figurative target on his back.)
Those do not seem to be possible meanings in the phrase "unmarked
position", where the only interpretation that I can see implies the lack
of some detectable sign or mark.
The most obvious example is English noun plurals. They carry a "mark," -s (or
-es), and they're less common than singulars. Plurals are the "marked," or
less usual form, singulars the "unmarked." It's a nice irony that the term
"unmarked" has an extra "mark" (the prefix un-).

From there it was a simple step to extend the concept of "markedness" to any
less common variant in an "opposition," such as a verb-before-subject clause
in English.

I liked one of Quinn's examples: "a marked increase in temperature." Applying
the linguistics sense of "marked," that would be interpreted as 'an increase
in temperature that was either considerably greater or considerably less than
the norm' -- i.e., an unusual amount of increase. (I don't think it could be
used of a decrease in temperature, though.)
Post by CDB
It would work well in describing
Spanish orthography, which expects word-stress on the penult, and marks
other stressed syllables with an accent, but still seems silly to me in
the case of English.
--
Silliness is characteristic of sheep, and so always on topic.
Sorry, but it's still not the case that sheep appear here with any sort of
regularity or frequency, so that trait is inoperatively held over from long
ago. I.e., it's a highly marked trait.
CDB
2017-08-16 23:38:32 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I heard the word the first time in the explanation
this weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got
all in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual
-- the "unmarked" -- position for stress in English
is on the penult?
English got stressmarks?
"Unmarked" in linguistics refers to a "basic", most "normal"
way of saying something, unless one has special reasons to
do otherwise. See, Peter even added an explanation in the
above!
My point was that it's a silly term to use on a language that
doesn't mark stress.
I forgot to comment on that silly sentence. I expect you
consider the following silly as well: "a marked increase in
temperature", "he has a marked drawl", "his win made him a marked
man". All things that we don't commonly use *graphical* marks for
- which seem to be the only ones you accept.
I accept your examples because they mean "noticeable" or
encapsulate a reference to the Book of Genesis, where we meet the
first "marked man". (I don't insist on that; he could have a
figurative target on his back.)
Those do not seem to be possible meanings in the phrase "unmarked
position", where the only interpretation that I can see implies the
lack of some detectable sign or mark.
The most obvious example is English noun plurals. They carry a
"mark," -s (or -es), and they're less common than singulars. Plurals
are the "marked," or less usual form, singulars the "unmarked." It's
a nice irony that the term "unmarked" has an extra "mark" (the prefix
un-).
From there it was a simple step to extend the concept of "markedness"
to any less common variant in an "opposition," such as a
verb-before-subject clause in English.
I liked one of Quinn's examples: "a marked increase in temperature."
Applying the linguistics sense of "marked," that would be interpreted
as 'an increase in temperature that was either considerably greater
or considerably less than the norm' -- i.e., an unusual amount of
increase. (I don't think it could be used of a decrease in
temperature, though.)
Noticeable, as I said. The transition may have come through phrases
like "in a marked manner", where the noticeability is intentional.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
It would work well in describing Spanish orthography, which expects
word-stress on the penult, and marks other stressed syllables with
an accent, but still seems silly to me in the case of English. --
Silliness is characteristic of sheep, and so always on topic.
Sorry, but it's still not the case that sheep appear here with any
sort of regularity or frequency, so that trait is inoperatively held
over from long ago. I.e., it's a highly marked trait.
No need for marking; these are hefted.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-16 21:04:49 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa". It seems to be a
cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its meaning seems
to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who come out
to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent. Am
I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a
stress on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on
"antimony", but even there, it's a minority pronunciation,
and maybe defendable because "antimony" doesn't contain a
real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa does. This was Sam
Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this
weekend -- remember when Athel's knickers got all in a twist
when I mentioned that the most usual -- the "unmarked" --
position for stress in English is on the penult?
English got stressmarks? I say ['anti,fa] from "anti" and "fa(scist).
That's not the "a" of "fascist", but let them try to correct me and they
will see how far they get.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What on earth is the silly little man on about? Link, please.
Still wondering where silly big Ethel's notion of my stature came from.
"We hardly ever have to obfuscate and misdirect our own discussions, you
know. No, we have a marvelous little man who comes by -- oh, several
dozen times a day, usually -- and does most of it for us." Could be
that "little man".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Apparently he's forgotten his ignorant comments on the pronunciation
of "Carmina Burana." KAR-mi-na in Latin, kar-MEEN-a most often in
English, which I patiently explained as the typical
penultimate-stress pattern in English, which he then ignorantly
pooh-poohed, citing nothing but words borrowed from other languages.
Like, say, "carmina"?
No, it would be silly to cite as a further example the word that had provoked
the list of further examples.
Post by CDB
The title is in Latin, and the Latin word "carmina" is accented on the
first syllable, as you say. Not many dictionaries have it as an English
word, but Merriam-Webster online says it's the same as in Latin.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carmina
I've performed in the work or part of it ("In taberna") many times. I know
what chorus directors and choristers call it. Since the phrase doesn't occur
in the text, there's no particular reason for any of them to learn the Latin
pronunciation.
Post by CDB
"Carmina" is sometimes used as a woman's name, apparently. Maybe that's
pronounced "Carmeena".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But, because Ethel is afraid of the truth about his manifold errors,
he won't read this.
I'll see if he's in.
John Varela
2017-08-16 22:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 23:21:00 UTC, David Kleinecke
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
This was Sam Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this weekend -- remember
when Athel's knickers got all in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual
-- the "unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the penult?
How else would it be pronounced?
If you stressed the an-, as if it were synchronically "anti-fa," what would you
do with the fa?
I now have heard the antifa called the alt-left.
But the German origin of the word "antifa" explains it's
origin. The alt-right is permeated with neo-nazi thought
and it's easy to see how they would pick up German neo-nazi
jargon.
And, this AM, Trump once again defended the alt-right. I
can't believe that will help him with his base.
I can.
--
John Varela
Quinn C
2017-08-16 16:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
This was Sam Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
I heard the word the first time in the explanation this weekend -- remember
when Athel's knickers got all in a twist when I mentioned that the most usual
-- the "unmarked" -- position for stress in English is on the penult?
How else would it be pronounced?
If you stressed the an-, as if it were synchronically "anti-fa," what would you
do with the fa?
Yesterday, I heard an independent journalist being interviewed on
CBC, and he said "anti-fa", with fa pronounced like the musical
note, rhyming with the Egyptian god Ra.

As I would have expected, but I didn't want to present my
non-native Sprachgefühl as evidence.
--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance.
Robert R. Coveyou
b***@aol.com
2017-08-16 00:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is stressed on the
2nd syllable, with apparently no alternative pronunciations.
Post by Quinn C
This was Sam Sanders; do others pronounce it like that?
--
Woman is a pair of ovaries with a human being attached, whereas
man is a human being furnished with a pair of testes.
-- Rudolf Virchow
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-16 16:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is stressed on the
2nd syllable, with apparently no alternative pronunciations.
...

Also "antiphonal" and "antipathy". (I had to check that "anticipate"
has a different origin.) Stressing the second syllable
strikes me as weird for a three-syllable word--compare "Antichrist",
"anti-gun", etc. But weird things happen. We'll see which of the
pronunciations Quinn heard wins out.
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@aol.com
2017-08-17 00:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is stressed on the
2nd syllable, with apparently no alternative pronunciations.
...
Also "antiphonal" and "antipathy".
Yes, and "antinomy", which is an anagram of the already mentioned
"antimony".
Post by Jerry Friedman
(I had to check that "anticipate"
has a different origin.) Stressing the second syllable
strikes me as weird for a three-syllable word--compare "Antichrist",
"anti-gun", etc.
But weird things happen.
As in "Antigua" (a nice island, BTW), but "anti" here is obviously not
the prefix marking opposition.
Post by Jerry Friedman
We'll see which of the
pronunciations Quinn heard wins out.
--
Jerry Friedman
Richard Tobin
2017-08-17 11:52:25 UTC
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Post by b***@aol.com
As in "Antigua" (a nice island, BTW), but "anti" here is obviously not
the prefix marking opposition.
You mean it's not a small island near the bigger island of Gua?

-- Richard
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-17 12:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by b***@aol.com
As in "Antigua" (a nice island, BTW), but "anti" here is obviously not
the prefix marking opposition.
You mean it's not a small island near the bigger island of Gua?
ITYM an equal island opposite Gua.
Richard Tobin
2017-08-17 12:59:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by b***@aol.com
As in "Antigua" (a nice island, BTW), but "anti" here is obviously not
the prefix marking opposition.
You mean it's not a small island near the bigger island of Gua?
ITYM an equal island opposite Gua.
I refer you to Antikithira, Antipaxos, Antiparos ...

Can you give some examples of "Anti-X" islands of equal size to X?

-- Richard
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-17 13:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by b***@aol.com
As in "Antigua" (a nice island, BTW), but "anti" here is obviously not
the prefix marking opposition.
You mean it's not a small island near the bigger island of Gua?
ITYM an equal island opposite Gua.
I refer you to Antikithira, Antipaxos, Antiparos ...
Can you give some examples of "Anti-X" islands of equal size to X?
I think "matter" and "anti-matter" adequately illustrates the use of "anti-."

I expected the use of "equal and opposite" would suffice to make clear the pleasantry.
Quinn C
2017-08-17 17:33:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is stressed on the
2nd syllable, with apparently no alternative pronunciations.
...
Also "antiphrasis" and "antipathy".
Yes, and "antinomy", which is an anagram of the already mentioned
"antimony".
That's more than I thought. Not that I ever had a need for
"antiphrasis" or "antiphonal", but "antipathy" and "antinomy"
aren't remote vocabulary. I wasn't really aware of the stress in
those.

In German, the suffix (-y, German -ie) draws stress onto itself.
So does the -al of "antiphonal".
Post by b***@aol.com
(I had to check that "anticipate"
has a different origin.) Stressing the second syllable
strikes me as weird for a three-syllable word--compare "Antichrist",
"anti-gun", etc.
But weird things happen.
As in "Antigua" (a nice island, BTW), but "anti" here is obviously not
the prefix marking opposition.
The first word that came to my mind in this discussion was
"Antigone". This is a rare example that has stress on the i in
German as well. I didn't mention it, because it's a name, even
though it does historically contain the prefix anti-.
--
The Internet? Is that thing still around? - Homer Simpson
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-17 17:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
...
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is stressed on the
2nd syllable, with apparently no alternative pronunciations.
...
Also "antiphrasis" and "antipathy".
What did you do, retype that fragment and accidentally replace
"antipathy" with "antiphrasis"?
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Yes, and "antinomy", which is an anagram of the already mentioned
"antimony".
That's more than I thought. Not that I ever had a need for
"antiphrasis" or "antiphonal", but "antipathy" and "antinomy"
aren't remote vocabulary. I wasn't really aware of the stress in
those.
...

Interesting. "Antiphonal" is much more familiar to me than
"antinomy" (or "antiphrasis"), and I've never even sung in a choir.

Another one is "antistrophe". I've been mentally mispronouncing it
all these years.

Anyway, I heard Amy Goodman and her radical guest say "antifa" last
night, and both accented the "i" and pronounced it as in "marine".
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2017-08-17 18:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is stressed on the
2nd syllable, with apparently no alternative pronunciations.
...
Also "antiphrasis" and "antipathy".
What did you do, retype that fragment and accidentally replace
"antipathy" with "antiphrasis"?
I copy-pasted the words, so if I changed a quote, that means I
accidentally pasted a word in the wrong place.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Yes, and "antinomy", which is an anagram of the already mentioned
"antimony".
That's more than I thought. Not that I ever had a need for
"antiphrasis" or "antiphonal", but "antipathy" and "antinomy"
aren't remote vocabulary. I wasn't really aware of the stress in
those.
...
Interesting. "Antiphonal" is much more familiar to me than
"antinomy" (or "antiphrasis"), and I've never even sung in a choir.
Antinomy is familiar to me from philosophy.

I haven't sung a lot of antiphonal music (not counting my recent
dabble into Gospel with its "call and response"), but I could
still have been more familiar with it than I am from my scattered
studies of music theory. It just somehow didn't happen. I
recognize "Antiphon" from the titles of some pieces of music, but
couldn't have explained it if asked suddenly.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Another one is "antistrophe". I've been mentally mispronouncing it
all these years.
So, like catastrophe. Is this based on Greek prosody somehow, or a
purely internal English decision?
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, I heard Amy Goodman and her radical guest say "antifa" last
night, and both accented the "i" and pronounced it as in "marine".
As a third data point, someone linked the Wiktionary page, which
has a sound file, uploaded quite recently. That one has almost
even stress on all three syllables. It doesn't sound natural to
me. Maybe the speaker couldn't or didn't want to decide.
--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.
Quinn C
2017-08-18 00:40:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, I heard Amy Goodman and her radical guest say "antifa" last
night, and both accented the "i" and pronounced it as in "marine".
As a third data point, someone linked the Wiktionary page, which
has a sound file, uploaded quite recently. That one has almost
even stress on all three syllables. It doesn't sound natural to
me. Maybe the speaker couldn't or didn't want to decide.
Columbia professor Mark Lilla today on Leonard Lopate said
['antifa], with first syllable stress, but also [a] instead of the
usual [&] of anti-. It sounded like right out of German.

My conclusion for the moment is that it is still in flux.

I liked his metaphor that in the eyes of the right, the Democrats
have gone from being the party of Joe Sixpack to being the party
of Jessica Yogamat.
--
The Internet? Is that thing still around? - Homer Simpson
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-18 17:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is stressed on the
2nd syllable, with apparently no alternative pronunciations.
...
Also "antiphrasis" and "antipathy".
What did you do, retype that fragment and accidentally replace
"antipathy" with "antiphrasis"?
I copy-pasted the words, so if I changed a quote, that means I
accidentally pasted a word in the wrong place.
...

Ah. I thought it was a strange thing to happen in a follow-up.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Another one is "antistrophe". I've been mentally mispronouncing it
all these years.
So, like catastrophe. Is this based on Greek prosody somehow, or a
purely internal English decision?
...

Apparently a purely English decision, since the OED says the original
Greek word is ἀντιστροϕή. If you can't see that, it has accents on
the first and last syllables.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2017-08-18 18:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised
at the pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian
word, with a stress on the i. I've heard this stress
pattern on "antimony", but even there, it's a minority
pronunciation, and maybe defendable because "antimony"
doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is
stressed on the 2nd syllable, with apparently no
alternative pronunciations.
...
Also "antiphrasis" and "antipathy".
What did you do, retype that fragment and accidentally replace
"antipathy" with "antiphrasis"?
I copy-pasted the words, so if I changed a quote, that means I
accidentally pasted a word in the wrong place.
...
Ah. I thought it was a strange thing to happen in a follow-up.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Another one is "antistrophe". I've been mentally mispronouncing
it all these years.
So, like catastrophe. Is this based on Greek prosody somehow, or a
purely internal English decision?
...
Apparently a purely English decision, since the OED says the original
Greek word is ἀντιστροϕή. If you can't see that, it has accents on
the first and last syllables.
The first one is a "smooth breathing"; look Ma, no "h". Most English
words of Greek derivation passed through Latin (classical or scholarly)
on the way here, and are stressed according to the Latin rules. When
the vowel of the penult is short, stress moves to the antepenult.

Spanish has "antistrofa", which must be stressed on the penult, but the
Real Academia gives an alternate spelling with stressed "i".
"Academia", OTOH, simply doesn't obey that rule.
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-18 19:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[accent of "antistrophe"]
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
So, like catastrophe. Is this based on Greek prosody somehow, or a
purely internal English decision?
...
Apparently a purely English decision, since the OED says the original
Greek word is ἀντιστροϕή. If you can't see that, it has accents on
the first and last syllables.
The first one is a "smooth breathing"; look Ma, no "h".
Thanks, I should have put my glasses on, or just realized an initial
vowel would have a breathing.
Post by CDB
Most English
words of Greek derivation passed through Latin (classical or scholarly)
on the way here, and are stressed according to the Latin rules. When
the vowel of the penult is short, stress moves to the antepenult.
...

Thanks, that explains a lot of these words.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-19 07:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[ ... ]
Spanish has "antistrofa", which must be stressed on the penult, but the
Real Academia gives an alternate spelling with stressed "i".
"Academia", OTOH, simply doesn't obey that rule.
Why do you say that? "Academia" follows the rules just fine, because i
(or u) before a final vowel doesn't count when deciding which is the
penultimate syllable; names like Antonio behave the same way. If you
want to treat it as the penultimate syllable you need a stress mark, as
in Andalucía or María. It may be a more complicated rule than you would
like, but it's a well established rule all the same (which doesn't
exist in Portuguese, so they write Andaluzia and Maria to get the same
stress patterns as in Spanish).
--
athel
Paul Wolff
2017-08-17 19:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is stressed on the
2nd syllable, with apparently no alternative pronunciations.
...
Also "antiphrasis" and "antipathy".
What did you do, retype that fragment and accidentally replace
"antipathy" with "antiphrasis"?
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Yes, and "antinomy", which is an anagram of the already mentioned
"antimony".
That's more than I thought. Not that I ever had a need for
"antiphrasis" or "antiphonal", but "antipathy" and "antinomy"
aren't remote vocabulary. I wasn't really aware of the stress in
those.
Interesting. "Antiphonal" is much more familiar to me than
"antinomy" (or "antiphrasis"), and I've never even sung in a choir.
Another one is "antistrophe". I've been mentally mispronouncing it
all these years.
Have you had antithesis yet?

You could try antichthon too, and antimer. (I like the -chthon words,
and all chemists like -mers.) What about antipodes? Antiscion is another
three-syllable example (after antimer) of a slipped stress to mirror
antifa above. Antistrophon and antistrophe may join the gang too.

I don't think antilopine counts, as it pertains to antilopes. I mean
antelopes.

(What are we trying to discover?)
--
Paul
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-18 04:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is stressed
on the
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by b***@aol.com
2nd syllable, with apparently no alternative pronunciations.
...
Also "antiphrasis" and "antipathy".
What did you do, retype that fragment and accidentally replace
"antipathy" with "antiphrasis"?
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Yes, and "antinomy", which is an anagram of the already mentioned
"antimony".
That's more than I thought. Not that I ever had a need for
"antiphrasis" or "antiphonal", but "antipathy" and "antinomy"
aren't remote vocabulary. I wasn't really aware of the stress in
those.
Interesting. "Antiphonal" is much more familiar to me than
"antinomy" (or "antiphrasis"), and I've never even sung in a choir.
Another one is "antistrophe". I've been mentally mispronouncing it
all these years.
Have you had antithesis yet?
I knew I was missing an obvious one.
Post by Paul Wolff
You could try antichthon too,
Yep.
Post by Paul Wolff
and antimer. (I like the -chthon words,
and all chemists like -mers.)
Apparently a lot more of you like "enantiomer". I can't find a
pronunciation for "antimer". Even the OED doesn't have it. Are you
telling me it rhymes with "dimmer"?
Post by Paul Wolff
What about antipodes?
Two obvious ones.
Post by Paul Wolff
Antiscion is another
three-syllable example (after antimer) of a slipped stress to mirror
antifa above.
A new one for me, and I'd never have guessed that it had three
syllables. The OED seems to think it has four.
Post by Paul Wolff
Antistrophon
=UsenetE "Thanks for making my point"?
Post by Paul Wolff
and antistrophe may join the gang too.
I don't think antilopine counts, as it pertains to antilopes. I mean
antelopes.
(What are we trying to discover?)
Whether there was some reason to expect "antifa" to be accented on the
second syllable?
--
Jerry Friedman
Paul Wolff
2017-08-18 09:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Today, I heard "Antifa" said on NPR, and was surprised at the
pronunciation: as if it was a single, Italian word, with a stress
on the i. I've heard this stress pattern on "antimony", but even
there, it's a minority pronunciation, and maybe defendable because
"antimony" doesn't contain a real, historical anti- prefix. Antifa
does.
Offhand, "antiphrasis" has a real "anti" prefix and is stressed
on the
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by b***@aol.com
2nd syllable, with apparently no alternative pronunciations.
...
Also "antiphrasis" and "antipathy".
What did you do, retype that fragment and accidentally replace
"antipathy" with "antiphrasis"?
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Yes, and "antinomy", which is an anagram of the already mentioned
"antimony".
That's more than I thought. Not that I ever had a need for
"antiphrasis" or "antiphonal", but "antipathy" and "antinomy"
aren't remote vocabulary. I wasn't really aware of the stress in
those.
Interesting. "Antiphonal" is much more familiar to me than
"antinomy" (or "antiphrasis"), and I've never even sung in a choir.
Another one is "antistrophe". I've been mentally mispronouncing it
all these years.
Have you had antithesis yet?
I knew I was missing an obvious one.
Post by Paul Wolff
You could try antichthon too,
Yep.
Post by Paul Wolff
and antimer. (I like the -chthon words, and all chemists like
-mers.)
Apparently a lot more of you like "enantiomer". I can't find a
pronunciation for "antimer". Even the OED doesn't have it. Are you
telling me it rhymes with "dimmer"?
Not any more I'm not. I don't know why/how antimer got in there. It
seems an unlikely candidate, and I hereby disclaim it.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Wolff
What about antipodes?
Two obvious ones.
Post by Paul Wolff
Antiscion is another three-syllable example (after antimer) of a
slipped stress to mirror antifa above.
A new one for me, and I'd never have guessed that it had three
syllables. The OED seems to think it has four.
It follows the 'dentition' pattern. I have a talking OED, and that's how
it speaks to me. Its representation in funny phonetic characters is, the
best I can reproduce them: an'tI[integral](schwa)n/
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Wolff
Antistrophon
=UsenetE "Thanks for making my point"?
!
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Wolff
and antistrophe may join the gang too.
I don't think antilopine counts, as it pertains to antilopes. I mean
antelopes.
(What are we trying to discover?)
Whether there was some reason to expect "antifa" to be accented on the
second syllable?
Not much of a reason, then.
--
Paul
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-18 12:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[snipola]
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Wolff
Antiscion is another three-syllable example (after antimer)
[disclaimed]
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Wolff
of a slipped stress to mirror antifa above.
A new one for me, and I'd never have guessed that it had three
syllables. The OED seems to think it has four.
It follows the 'dentition' pattern. I have a talking OED, and that's how
it speaks to me. Its representation in funny phonetic characters is, the
best I can reproduce them: an'tI[integral](schwa)n/
Mine puts an "I" in before the schwa: /ænˈtɪʃɪən/, which it doesn't do
for "dentition".

Now all I have to do is figure out a time to use it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Hen Hanna
2017-08-16 18:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
You need to listen to NPR!
It's the latest bit of fake news from the alt-right, pretending that the poor
defenseless alt-right hoodlums are constantly being physically attacked by
leftist thugs. You know, how Donnie-John said "from many sides."
The Takeaway even included a voicemail message to that effect from a listener
in their medley of replies to their request for comments on Charlottesville.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/antifa

this morning I heard Cornel West use it on
Democracy Now! radio show. HH
Paul Wolff
2017-08-14 21:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
Maybe, but it's also close to an abbreviation of Antofagasta, the
Chilean mining company.
--
Paul
Quinn C
2017-08-14 23:01:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
I guess so. It's quite established in German, so maybe they
imported it as a counterpart to "Nazi".

I see that <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)>
was founded in 2013.

In Germany, the ones who look for street fights with neo-nazis are
usually more specifically "autonomists", and among them
particularly what's called "black bloc". Some of them are deeply
political, others take part for the thrill, which waters down the
message.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomism>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc>
--
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)
Cheryl
2017-08-14 23:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
I guess so. It's quite established in German, so maybe they
imported it as a counterpart to "Nazi".
I see that <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)>
was founded in 2013.
In Germany, the ones who look for street fights with neo-nazis are
usually more specifically "autonomists", and among them
particularly what's called "black bloc". Some of them are deeply
political, others take part for the thrill, which waters down the
message.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomism>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc>
Last time I heard of a similar sort of thing in Canada, which was some
time ago, they were said to be anarchists and/or agents provocateurs,
but my main source may not have been entirely unbiased, being a
left-wing radical who thought they giving the more morally upright
protesters a bad name and preventing them from getting their message
out, which is similar to what you report. They don't seem to have been
too particular about who they attack (police, actual neo-nazis, etc), as
long as the targets can be claimed to be political enemies. I expect,
like any group that gets involved in violence, they attract a certain
number of people who like violence for its own sake.
--
Cheryl
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-14 23:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 13:13:36 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

The name "Antifa" was originally used as a shorthand for the German
Antifaschistische Aktion group in the 1980s and the terminology
eventually spread throughout the rest of the Western world as a
synonym for any militant anarcho-communist associated anti-fascist
groups, including the Anti-Racist Action group in the United States
and the Anti-Fascist Action group in the United Kingdom. On the
international level, from 2003, many of these groups affiliated with
the "Antifa-Net: International Antifascist Network for Research and
Action" network.


Founded: 2013
Preceded by: Anti-Racist Action
Headquarters: none (autonomous branches
throughout the United States)
Ideology: Antifascism Anarcho-communism
Political position: Far-left
International affiliation: Antifascist Action
Colours: Black, red
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-15 16:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
The question is how to pronounce it. "Fa" as in "sol-fa" or as in
"fascist"?
--
Jerry Friedman might need to listen to the radio a little more.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-15 18:03:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
The question is how to pronounce it. "Fa" as in "sol-fa" or as in
"fascist"?
With shwa.
Post by Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman might need to listen to the radio a little more.
CDB
2017-08-16 05:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I observed a
word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its meaning
seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who come out to
oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
The question is how to pronounce it. "Fa" as in "sol-fa" or as in
"fascist"?
Anybody else wondering about a virtue-signalling resemblance to "intifadeh"?
Dr. Jai Maharaj
2017-08-17 01:15:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In alt.usage.english, in article
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And
its meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting
groups who come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy
to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
Antifa is a terrorist group in the blood-soaked Bolshevik
tradition

theduran.com
June 1, 2017

Left wing terrorism has been part of Europe and the
United States since before most people had ever heard of
the word 'jihad'.

Continues at:

http://theduran.com/antifa-is-a-terrorist-group-in-the-blood-soaked-bolshevik-tradition/

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://bit.do/jaimaharaj
Dr. Jai Maharaj
2017-08-17 18:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dr. Jai Maharaj
In alt.usage.english, in article
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And
its meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting
groups who come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy
to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
Antifa is a terrorist group in the blood-soaked Bolshevik
tradition
theduran.com
June 1, 2017
Left wing terrorism has been part of Europe and the
United States since before most people had ever heard of
the word 'jihad'.
http://theduran.com/antifa-is-a-terrorist-group-in-the-blood-soaked-bolshevik-tradition/
Wikileaks: Germany Called Antifa 'Terrorist Organization'
In 1979

departmentofmemes.com
Wednesday, August 16, 2017

http://www.departmentofmemes.com/article/wikileaks-germany-classified-antifa-terrorist-organization-1979/

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://bit.ly/1EM9nsg
Dr. Jai Maharaj
2017-08-17 20:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dr. Jai Maharaj
Post by Dr. Jai Maharaj
In alt.usage.english, in article
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And
its meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting
groups who come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy
to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
Antifa is a terrorist group in the blood-soaked Bolshevik
tradition
theduran.com
June 1, 2017
Left wing terrorism has been part of Europe and the
United States since before most people had ever heard of
the word 'jihad'.
http://theduran.com/antifa-is-a-terrorist-group-in-the-blood-soaked-bolshevik-tradition/
Wikileaks: Germany Called Antifa 'Terrorist Organization'
In 1979
departmentofmemes.com
Wednesday, August 16, 2017
http://www.departmentofmemes.com/article/wikileaks-germany-classified-antifa-terrorist-organization-1979/
Forwarded post:

"Antifa" is just the current branding of the same
anarchist thugs responsible for the riots at the 2000
Democrat convention in Los Angeles, the 1999 riots in
Seattle, and pre-planned chaos of "Occupy Wall Street."

They are the "progressive" movement's storm-troopers and
have been for going on 20 years now.

Posted by BenLurkin

End of forwarded post.

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://ow.ly/UIz9w
Dingbat
2017-08-20 03:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
In the accounts of the recent riot in Charlottesville I
observed a word new to me - "antifa".
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
According to this claim, they don't want to be violent themselves but intend
to goad their opponents into committing acts of violence:

Rupert wrote:
I just recently asked a Facebook friend about this, and she said the whole
point of Antifa is to strategically incite violence. As in, she openly admits
that's what they're going for. I don't know whether she's Antifa herself but
she does campaign against white supremacists, I think she's an anarchist.
Simon Grushka
2017-08-22 22:45:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
It seems to be a cut-down version of anti-fascist. And its
meaning seems to be left-wing hoodlums - fighting groups who
come out to oppose the alt-right and are happy to be violent.
Am I getting this right?
basically, yeap.
both groups worth each other.

simon
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