Timber or timbre?

[Opus the Penguin]

(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)

What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?

Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

[Opus the Penguin]

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential
timber" (as of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential
timbre" (as of one who has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there
are sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus
on meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase
started out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If
that's different, I'm curious about when and how the change took
place.

Doesn't it depend how it's pronounced? "timber" = \timber\,
"timbre" = \tomber\ (French, I guess). At least, that's how I
speak.

I've only heard it pronounced as a homonym for "timber". But my
American Heritage Dictionary lists that pronunciation second and your
first.

[Raymond O'Hara]

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.
--
Opus the Penguin
I have to say, the combination of firearms, homemade booze, and Billy
Ray playing the bagpipes spells "fun" to me - Richard R. Hershberger

Tree,

[tony cooper]

On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

Timber, to me. I can't imagine using "timbre" for this usage.

You would also say that someone is presidential material. Something
you can build a president out of. You build something solid out of
wood, and wood comes from timber.

[CDB]

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)

[presidential timber or timbre?]

Post by tony cooper
Timber, to me. I can't imagine using "timbre" for this usage.
You would also say that someone is presidential material. Something
you can build a president out of. You build something solid out of
wood, and wood comes from timber.

Agreed. I wonder if there is a joking reference somewhere in there to
a log cabin, or to rail-splitting. (I don't know how to get Google
Books to give me the oldest ones first.)

[Donna Richoux]

Post by CDB
Agreed. I wonder if there is a joking reference somewhere in there to
a log cabin, or to rail-splitting. (I don't know how to get Google
Books to give me the oldest ones first.)

Google Books won't arrange the results in order. But you can search
repeatedly on various periods, narrowing down what you want, by putting

date:1800-1850

or whatever, into the search field.

Then, of course, be skeptical of the resulting dates, particularly of
periodicals. A year in the Item Notes line in the "About this Book" page
is pretty reliable.

[Lee Ayrton]

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

Timber, to me. I can't imagine using "timbre" for this usage.

I would have gone with "timbre". Presidential tone.

Post by tony cooper
You would also say that someone is presidential material. Something
you can build a president out of. You build something solid out of
wood, and wood comes from timber.

Well, you could build a bridge out of him, to span an abyss. And timber
is something that one cuts off knee-high and drags through the woods.
Timber is something that is consumed in a wildfire. The possibilities for
folk etymology are endless. The sense that you are reaching for already
exists in the phrase "presidential material".

[tony cooper]

Post by Lee Ayrton

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

Timber, to me. I can't imagine using "timbre" for this usage.

I would have gone with "timbre". Presidential tone.

Since the American political system is a beauty contest of sorts, I
can see how a good speaking voice could be an asset. However, even in
American politics it takes more than sounding good on the radio.

Who was that guy on "Laugh In" who spoke into a microphone while
cupping one ear with his hand? Did he have Presidential timbre?

[Default User]

Post by tony cooper

Post by Lee Ayrton
I would have gone with "timbre". Presidential tone.

Since the American political system is a beauty contest of sorts, I
can see how a good speaking voice could be an asset. However, even in
American politics it takes more than sounding good on the radio.
Who was that guy on "Laugh In" who spoke into a microphone while
cupping one ear with his hand? Did he have Presidential timbre?

Gary Owens.



Brian

[Lee Ayrton]

Post by tony cooper

Post by Lee Ayrton

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

Timber, to me. I can't imagine using "timbre" for this usage.

I would have gone with "timbre". Presidential tone.

Since the American political system is a beauty contest of sorts, I
can see how a good speaking voice could be an asset. However, even in
American politics it takes more than sounding good on the radio.

The use is metaphorical, rather than literal or musical. However, as no
one has offered a cite yet:

Timbre, tymbre Obs. exc. Hist. late ME [a. F., the same wd. as in prec.,
in transf. sense] The crest of a helmet; hence, the crest or exterior
additions placed over a shield in heraldic arms.

Timbre 1849 [a. mod.F.,from the transf. sense of 'bell', 'small bell' from
which also the sense of prec. arose] The character or quality of a
musical or vocal sound (distinct from its pitch and intensity) depending
upon the particular voice or instrument producing it.

"The Oxford Universal Dictionary On Historical Principles" 3rd.,
Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1955.

I could go with either sense as "presidential timbre".

[Greg Goss]

Post by Lee Ayrton
I could go with either sense as "presidential timbre".

"Timbre" is how I think of it. I don't have any particular logical
reasons supporting it -- it's just a word defined unto itself.

[Chuck Riggs]

On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:12:34 -0500, tony cooper
<***@earthlink.net> wrote:

<snip>

Post by tony cooper
Since the American political system is a beauty contest of sorts, I
can see how a good speaking voice could be an asset.

Is the political system of any democratic country, not?

[CDB]

Post by Chuck Riggs
On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:12:34 -0500, tony cooper
<snip>

Post by tony cooper
Since the American political system is a beauty contest of sorts, I
can see how a good speaking voice could be an asset.

Is the political system of any democratic country, not?

In Canada these days, it's more of a lookalike contest, at least at
the riding level. Candidates are chosen, by riding associations or
sometimes by the parties, to attract voters that will support them
because they resemble what the voter sees in the mirror.

There has been much public soul-searching since the 6th, as chatterers
explore the reasons why the US has taken this progressive step before
we have, in spite of our well-known superiority to them in the
niceness department. In one such that I listened to, panellists were
lamenting the System's tendency to choose candidates from
visible-minority groups purely for their ability to attract hordes of
their fellow-ethnics to the polls, and the rule that now prevails in
the selection of Cabinet Ministers, that all parts of the country must
first be represented, and only then the need for competence
accommodated.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Lee Ayrton

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?

Timber, to me. I can't imagine using "timbre" for this usage.

I would have gone with "timbre". Presidential tone.

So would I, a foreigner. And my country had a wannabee President Tone
once. Didn't last. Now they're singing "A Gordon For Me" in
Glenrothes.

Post by Lee Ayrton

Post by tony cooper
You would also say that someone is presidential material. Something
you can build a president out of. You build something solid out of
wood, and wood comes from timber.

Well, you could build a bridge out of him, to span an abyss.

Not with a bang, but with a wimple.

[Hactar]

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

Doesn't it depend how it's pronounced? "timber" = \timber\,
"timbre" = \tomber\ (French, I guess). At least, that's how I speak.

[Chuck Riggs]

On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

If I were in Lincoln's day I might argue for "timber", but in today's
world, "presidential timbre" makes better sense to me. I have no idea
which one is "official", though.

[R H Draney]

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

If I were in Lincoln's day I might argue for "timber", but in today's
world, "presidential timbre" makes better sense to me. I have no idea
which one is "official", though.

Was it ever said about Lincoln, though, or is the expression more
recent?...seems to me I've heard a related joke made about Charlie McCarthy....

We don't have this problem when we speak of someone's "calibre/calibre"....r

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Post by R H Draney

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there
are sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus
on meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase
started out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If
that's different, I'm curious about when and how the change took
place.

If I were in Lincoln's day I might argue for "timber", but in
today's world, "presidential timbre" makes better sense to me. I
have no idea which one is "official", though.

Was it ever said about Lincoln, though, or is the expression more
recent?...seems to me I've heard a related joke made about Charlie McCarthy....

I looked it up on Google Books, and "presidential timbre" first shows
up in 1894, but "presidential timber" shows up in 1879, in a
description of Lincoln, no less:

If Lincoln at this time felt the divine afflatus of greatness stir
within him I have never heard of it. It was rather common among
us then in the West to suppose that there was no Presidential
timber growing in the Northwest, yet, he doubtless had at that
time the stuff out of which to make half a dozen Presidents.

"Gen. Linder's Early Recollections of Lincoln",
J.B. McClure (ed), _Anecdotes of Abrraham Lincoln and
Lincoln's Stories_, 1879.

There are some 25 hits for "timbre" before the first "timbre". The
_NY Times_ pushes it back to 1876, speaking of "Col. Broadhead" as a
Vice Presidential candidate:

Many of the best friends of that gentleman confess that they see a
very small amount of Presidential timber in him. [6/22/1876]

"Presidential timbre" doesn't actually show up in an article there
until 1978, in a William Safire column, speaking of Walter Cronkite:

Though his voice is of Presidential timbre, Walter would never get
the nomination. [5/15/1978]

and it only appears in four articles through 2005.

So while I would have said "timbre" (and I do feel that that's the
correct word now), it appears that it was the woody stuff originally
and still is as far as the _NY Times_ is concerned.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Your claim might have more
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |credibility if you hadn't mispelled
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"inteligent"

***@hpl.hp.com
[phone]

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Opus the Penguin]

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
I looked it up on Google Books, and "presidential timbre" first
shows up in 1894, but "presidential timber" shows up in 1879, in a
If Lincoln at this time felt the divine afflatus of greatness
stir within him I have never heard of it. It was rather
common among us then in the West to suppose that there was no
Presidential timber growing in the Northwest, yet, he
doubtless had at that time the stuff out of which to make half
a dozen Presidents.
"Gen. Linder's Early Recollections of Lincoln",
J.B. McClure (ed), _Anecdotes of Abrraham Lincoln and
Lincoln's Stories_, 1879.
There are some 25 hits for "timbre" before the first "timbre".

Come again?

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
The _NY Times_ pushes it back to 1876, speaking of "Col.
Many of the best friends of that gentleman confess that they
see a very small amount of Presidential timber in him.
[6/22/1876]
"Presidential timbre" doesn't actually show up in an article there
until 1978, in a William Safire column, speaking of Walter
Though his voice is of Presidential timbre, Walter would never
get the nomination. [5/15/1978]

Seems like an erudite play on words in this case.

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
and it only appears in four articles through 2005.
So while I would have said "timbre" (and I do feel that that's the
correct word now), it appears that it was the woody stuff
originally and still is as far as the _NY Times_ is concerned.

Excellent work! Thank you. My instinct was for "timber," myself.

[Bob Ward]

On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 00:40:57 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
I looked it up on Google Books, and "presidential timbre" first
shows up in 1894, but "presidential timber" shows up in 1879, in a
If Lincoln at this time felt the divine afflatus of greatness
stir within him I have never heard of it. It was rather
common among us then in the West to suppose that there was no
Presidential timber growing in the Northwest, yet, he
doubtless had at that time the stuff out of which to make half
a dozen Presidents.
"Gen. Linder's Early Recollections of Lincoln",
J.B. McClure (ed), _Anecdotes of Abrraham Lincoln and
Lincoln's Stories_, 1879.
There are some 25 hits for "timbre" before the first "timbre".

Come again?

Homosexual Talese

Post by Opus the Penguin

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
The _NY Times_ pushes it back to 1876, speaking of "Col.
Many of the best friends of that gentleman confess that they
see a very small amount of Presidential timber in him.
[6/22/1876]
"Presidential timbre" doesn't actually show up in an article there
until 1978, in a William Safire column, speaking of Walter
Though his voice is of Presidential timbre, Walter would never
get the nomination. [5/15/1978]

Seems like an erudite play on words in this case.

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
and it only appears in four articles through 2005.
So while I would have said "timbre" (and I do feel that that's the
correct word now), it appears that it was the woody stuff
originally and still is as far as the _NY Times_ is concerned.

Excellent work! Thank you. My instinct was for "timber," myself.

[Mark Steese]

Evan Kirshenbaum <***@hpl.hp.com> wrote in news:***@hpl.hp.com:

[snip]

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
I looked it up on Google Books, and "presidential timbre" first shows
up in 1894, but "presidential timber" shows up in 1879, in a
If Lincoln at this time felt the divine afflatus of greatness stir
within him I have never heard of it. It was rather common among
us then in the West to suppose that there was no Presidential
timber growing in the Northwest, yet, he doubtless had at that
time the stuff out of which to make half a dozen Presidents.
"Gen. Linder's Early Recollections of Lincoln",
J.B. McClure (ed), _Anecdotes of Abrraham Lincoln and
Lincoln's Stories_, 1879.

Google Books also has an excerpt from a dictionary of American political
slang (*Hatchet Jobs and Hardball* by Grant Barrett: Oxford University
Press, 2004) that defines "timber" as "a character suitable to qualify one
for office," and cites examples going back to 1854 ("Rumors had reached us
weeks ago that Col. Benton was undoubtedly prominent among the Presidential
timber trees of 1856"). No mention of "timbre," though.

[Paul L. Madarasz]

On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:27:46 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by R H Draney

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there
are sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus
on meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase
started out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If
that's different, I'm curious about when and how the change took
place.

If I were in Lincoln's day I might argue for "timber", but in
today's world, "presidential timbre" makes better sense to me. I
have no idea which one is "official", though.

Was it ever said about Lincoln, though, or is the expression more
recent?...seems to me I've heard a related joke made about Charlie McCarthy....

I looked it up on Google Books, and "presidential timbre" first shows
up in 1894, but "presidential timber" shows up in 1879, in a
If Lincoln at this time felt the divine afflatus of greatness

The hazard of living before Beano.

[Bob Ward]

Post by R H Draney

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

If I were in Lincoln's day I might argue for "timber", but in today's
world, "presidential timbre" makes better sense to me. I have no idea
which one is "official", though.

Was it ever said about Lincoln, though, or is the expression more
recent?...seems to me I've heard a related joke made about Charlie McCarthy....
We don't have this problem when we speak of someone's "calibre/calibre"....r

To be a good President you've got to have wood? It really is all
Clinton's fault!

[Chuck Riggs]

Post by Bob Ward

Post by R H Draney

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

If I were in Lincoln's day I might argue for "timber", but in today's
world, "presidential timbre" makes better sense to me. I have no idea
which one is "official", though.

Was it ever said about Lincoln, though, or is the expression more
recent?...seems to me I've heard a related joke made about Charlie McCarthy....
We don't have this problem when we speak of someone's "calibre/calibre"....r

To be a good President you've got to have wood?

All the better to screw you with.

Post by Bob Ward
It really is all
Clinton's fault!

[JoAnne Schmitz]

On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

I would think the two would be used differently.

If "timber" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *is* presidential
timber."

If "timbre" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *has* presidential
timbre."

Sure, someone might use it like "he is the Voice of America," but that
would be kind of a double stretch, if you know what I mean.

-JoAnne

p.s. my music teacher said to pronounce it TAM-burr. Now I'm wondering if
she was Scottish.

--

[Ian Jackson]

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

I would think the two would be used differently.
If "timber" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *is* presidential
timber."
If "timbre" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *has* presidential
timbre."
Sure, someone might use it like "he is the Voice of America," but that
would be kind of a double stretch, if you know what I mean.
-JoAnne
p.s. my music teacher said to pronounce it TAM-burr. Now I'm wondering if
she was Scottish.

The French (and British) would pronounce it more like 'TAM-bruh' ('the
'bruh being like brush without the 'sh'', very short, and with a
slightly rolled 'r'.

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

I would think the two would be used differently.
If "timber" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *is* presidential
timber."
If "timbre" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *has* presidential
timbre."
Sure, someone might use it like "he is the Voice of America," but that
would be kind of a double stretch, if you know what I mean.
-JoAnne
p.s. my music teacher said to pronounce it TAM-burr. Now I'm wondering if
she was Scottish.

The French (and British) would pronounce it more like 'TAM-bruh' ('the
'bruh being like brush without the 'sh'', very short, and with a
slightly rolled 'r'.

That's the normal American pronunciation, too, in my experience. Musicians
will look at you funny if you use the "tim-ber" pronunciation in reference
to musical tone-color.

[the Omrud]

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

I would think the two would be used differently.
If "timber" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *is* presidential
timber."
If "timbre" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *has* presidential
timbre."
Sure, someone might use it like "he is the Voice of America," but that
would be kind of a double stretch, if you know what I mean.
p.s. my music teacher said to pronounce it TAM-burr. Now I'm wondering if
she was Scottish.

The French (and British) would pronounce it more like 'TAM-bruh' ('the
'bruh being like brush without the 'sh'', very short, and with a
slightly rolled 'r'.

That's the normal American pronunciation, too, in my experience. Musicians
will look at you funny if you use the "tim-ber" pronunciation in reference
to musical tone-color.

BrE simply doesn't use either the pronunciation or spelling of "timber"
to mean "timbre", by musicians or otherwise.

[Opus the Penguin]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential
timber" (as of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential
timbre" (as of one who has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But
there are sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their
reasons focus on meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious
how this phrase started out. And I'm curious what is
considered correct today. If that's different, I'm curious
about when and how the change took place.

I would think the two would be used differently.
If "timber" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *is*
presidential timber."
If "timbre" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *has*
presidential timbre."
Sure, someone might use it like "he is the Voice of America,"
but that would be kind of a double stretch, if you know what I
mean.
p.s. my music teacher said to pronounce it TAM-burr. Now I'm
wondering if she was Scottish.

The French (and British) would pronounce it more like 'TAM-bruh'
('the 'bruh being like brush without the 'sh'', very short, and
with a slightly rolled 'r'.

That's the normal American pronunciation, too, in my experience.
Musicians will look at you funny if you use the "tim-ber"
pronunciation in reference to musical tone-color.

BrE simply doesn't use either the pronunciation or spelling of
"timber" to mean "timbre", by musicians or otherwise.

AmE never uses the spelling of "timber" to mean "timbre". AmE
sometimes uses the pronunciation of "timber" for "timbre". But that
pronunciation may sound ignorant to some.

AH4 lists "TAM-burr" as the first pronunciation. However, when I
click on the audio link, it sounds more like "timber" or maybe
"tember". No allowance is made for "TAM-bruh". Merriam-Webster makes
that allowance, but lists the pronunciation third, after TAM- and
TIM-burr.

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0100 (CET), Opus the Penguin

Post by Opus the Penguin
(NOTE: cross-posted in alt.fan.cecil-adams, alt.usage.english)
What's the official phrase? Does one refer to "presidential timber" (as
of one cut from the right tree) or "presidential timbre" (as of one who
has the right tone?
Google finds more sites with "timber" by over 13 to 1. But there are
sites that argue for "timbre" as correct. Their reasons focus on
meaning rather than provenance. I'm curious how this phrase started
out. And I'm curious what is considered correct today. If that's
different, I'm curious about when and how the change took place.

I would think the two would be used differently.
If "timber" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *is* presidential
timber."  
If "timbre" is correct, you would say, "[Candidate] *has* presidential
timbre."

...

I agree completely. "Presidential timber", as some have said, is a
normal variation of "presidential material". "Presidential timbre" is
a quality that someone has, if people say it.

Post by tony cooper
p.s. my music teacher said to pronounce it TAM-burr.  Now I'm wondering if
she was Scottish.

That's the first pronunciation in the American Heritage and Merriam-
Webster dictionaries on line (and the one I use). The second is
"timber". The AHD doesn't mention Ian Jackson's "TAMbruh", but I've
certainly heard it here in America, and M-W lists it third.

--
Jerry Friedman