Discussion:
New reason why US date format s*cks
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Quinn C
2018-08-04 21:42:28 UTC
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A foodstuff I bought today is marked:

Best before: MAY2319
--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-08-04 22:29:29 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
Would MAY1923 be better?
Tony Cooper
2018-08-04 23:12:44 UTC
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On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 17:42:28 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
What did you find that sucked? Trying to figure the month or the year
when the product passes it "best" date?

Considering that the product will still be "best" for 300 years, the
product must be a Hostess Twinkie.

There are rumors that some of the original batch of Twinkies made by
James Dewar (the inventor) in 1930 were placed in a warehouse when the
company went bankrupt in 2012, but have now been released for
distribution but must be consumed by the year 2230 or they will be a
bit stale.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Joe W Dee
2018-08-05 00:03:30 UTC
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Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019?
What school you went?
Peter Moylan
2018-08-05 00:45:07 UTC
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On Aug 4, 2018, Quinn C wrote (in
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.

I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Percival P. Cassidy
2018-08-05 01:13:52 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
And using the only sensible date format: YYYYMMDD. It's an ISO standard.
PRC and Taiwan use it, as do some other countries.

Perce
Ken Blake
2018-08-05 14:41:03 UTC
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On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 21:13:52 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
Post by Peter Moylan
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
And using the only sensible date format: YYYYMMDD. It's an ISO standard.
PRC and Taiwan use it, as do some other countries.
Yes. As I think I've said here before, despite my being a USan, I
think that's the best format, because it's directly sortable. At least
it's the best format when included in files. When printed, it
shouldn't be 20190523, because it's hard to visually separate the
components. Better would be YYYY/MM/DD, or in this instance,
2019/05/23.
Garrett Wollman
2018-08-05 15:10:58 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 21:13:52 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
And using the only sensible date format: YYYYMMDD. It's an ISO standard.
PRC and Taiwan use it, as do some other countries.
Yes. As I think I've said here before, despite my being a USan, I
think that's the best format, because it's directly sortable. At least
it's the best format when included in files. When printed, it
shouldn't be 20190523, because it's hard to visually separate the
components. Better would be YYYY/MM/DD, or in this instance,
2019/05/23.
No. The Standard (if you use separators) is YYYY-MM-DD. In the fully
general case, yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss±zzzz.[1] (There are a few other cases,
like a week-based notation that's apparently used in German industrial
planning.)

-GAWollman

[1] In case it's not obvious, the capital letter represents a literal
'T' here, and the lower-case letters represent decimal integers.
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Will Parsons
2018-08-07 01:30:10 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Ken Blake
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 21:13:52 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
And using the only sensible date format: YYYYMMDD. It's an ISO standard.
PRC and Taiwan use it, as do some other countries.
Yes. As I think I've said here before, despite my being a USan, I
think that's the best format, because it's directly sortable. At least
it's the best format when included in files. When printed, it
shouldn't be 20190523, because it's hard to visually separate the
components. Better would be YYYY/MM/DD, or in this instance,
2019/05/23.
No. The Standard (if you use separators) is YYYY-MM-DD. In the fully
general case, yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss±zzzz.[1] (There are a few other cases,
like a week-based notation that's apparently used in German industrial
planning.)
-GAWollman
[1] In case it's not obvious, the capital letter represents a literal
'T' here, and the lower-case letters represent decimal integers.
Yes. I'm sure the 'T' was specified by the standard so that the whole
string does not contain spaces, but this has the side effect of making
the whole string harder to parse by eye. I always use the slightly
non-conformant format "yyyy-mm-dd hh:mm:ss" myself.
--
Will
John Dunlop
2018-08-07 07:59:30 UTC
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...
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Garrett Wollman
No. The Standard (if you use separators) is YYYY-MM-DD. In the fully
general case, yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss±zzzz.[1] (There are a few other cases,
like a week-based notation that's apparently used in German industrial
planning.)
-GAWollman
[1] In case it's not obvious, the capital letter represents a literal
'T' here, and the lower-case letters represent decimal integers.
Yes. I'm sure the 'T' was specified by the standard so that the whole
string does not contain spaces, but this has the side effect of making
the whole string harder to parse by eye. I always use the slightly
non-conformant format "yyyy-mm-dd hh:mm:ss" myself.
The standard allows the "T" to be omitted by agreement. So if it's for
your own use, say, and you agree with yourself, it still conforms.
--
John
Snidely
2018-08-07 09:28:54 UTC
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...
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Garrett Wollman
No. The Standard (if you use separators) is YYYY-MM-DD. In the fully
general case, yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss±zzzz.[1] (There are a few other cases,
like a week-based notation that's apparently used in German industrial
planning.)
-GAWollman
[1] In case it's not obvious, the capital letter represents a literal
'T' here, and the lower-case letters represent decimal integers.
Yes. I'm sure the 'T' was specified by the standard so that the whole
string does not contain spaces, but this has the side effect of making
the whole string harder to parse by eye. I always use the slightly
non-conformant format "yyyy-mm-dd hh:mm:ss" myself.
The standard allows the "T" to be omitted by agreement. So if it's for your
own use, say, and you agree with yourself, it still conforms.
AIUI, not omitted but replaced by " ". Even though the WikiNoticle
says it the way you did.

Of course, I haven't pungled up to get a copy of ISO 8061, so I'm stuck
with having read reports of what it says. IIRC, much of the content
was derived from a DIN standard.

/dps
--
Ieri, oggi, domani
Peter Moylan
2018-08-07 09:54:41 UTC
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Post by John Dunlop
...
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Garrett Wollman
No. The Standard (if you use separators) is YYYY-MM-DD. In the fully
general case, yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss±zzzz.[1] (There are a few other cases,
like a week-based notation that's apparently used in German industrial
planning.)
-GAWollman
[1] In case it's not obvious, the capital letter represents a literal
'T' here, and the lower-case letters represent decimal integers.
Yes. I'm sure the 'T' was specified by the standard so that the whole
string does not contain spaces, but this has the side effect of making
the whole string harder to parse by eye. I always use the slightly
non-conformant format "yyyy-mm-dd hh:mm:ss" myself.
The standard allows the "T" to be omitted by agreement. So if it's for
your own use, say, and you agree with yourself, it still conforms.
I've written a lot of server software, so I've often had to generate a
timestamp in the "standard" form. The problem is that every standard
specifies a different format. In the end I had to implement this:

PROCEDURE FormatCurrentDateTime (format: ARRAY OF CHAR; GMT: BOOLEAN;
VAR (*OUT*) result: ARRAY OF CHAR);

(* Puts the current date and time into result according to the *)
(* given format specification. The format codes are: *)
(* dd day, numeric *)
(* ddd day, three-letter name *)
(* mm month, numeric *)
(* mmm month, three-letter name *)
(* yy year, including Y2K bug *)
(* yyyy year, all four digits *)
(* HH hours *)
(* MM minutes *)
(* SS seconds *)
(* zz first time: sign and hours of time zone *)
(* zz second time: minutes part of time zone *)
(* Time is in GMT if GMT=TRUE; local time otherwise. *)

That is, the caller supplies a format control string, similar in
principle to the frequently-cursed C printf function.

We've come a long way since Fortran II. Haven't we? Please tell me we have.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
John Varela
2018-08-06 22:50:52 UTC
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On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 01:13:52 UTC, "Percival P. Cassidy"
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
Post by Peter Moylan
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
And using the only sensible date format: YYYYMMDD. It's an ISO standard.
PRC and Taiwan use it, as do some other countries.
YYYYMMDD is the format I use for labeling my photos because that way
they sort correctly. The ISO standard, however, is YYYY-MM-DD,
which sorts equally well but uses a bit more space in a limited line
length.
--
John Varela
John Dunlop
2018-08-07 07:59:55 UTC
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Post by John Varela
YYYYMMDD is the format I use for labeling my photos because that way
they sort correctly. The ISO standard, however, is YYYY-MM-DD,
which sorts equally well but uses a bit more space in a limited line
length.
YYYYMMDD still conforms to the standard.
--
John
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-07 13:43:57 UTC
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Post by John Varela
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 01:13:52 UTC, "Percival P. Cassidy"
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
Post by Peter Moylan
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
And using the only sensible date format: YYYYMMDD. It's an ISO standard.
PRC and Taiwan use it, as do some other countries.
YYYYMMDD is the format I use for labeling my photos because that way
they sort correctly. The ISO standard, however, is YYYY-MM-DD,
which sorts equally well but uses a bit more space in a limited line
length.
I use the normal informal American (M)M-(D)D-YY for the folders I keep
my photos in, and even my previous Mac sorted them correctly. Well, it
puts the same dates in different years next to each other, so 8-5-17 is
right before 8-5-18, but that's fine.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-05 05:46:45 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
On Aug 4, 2018, Quinn C wrote (in
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Not for me. I tend to be quite obsessive about that. I write the date
like that on medicine boxes, for example 4.viii.2018 for my visit to
the pharmacy yesterday, even though I'm the only person who normally
reads it.
--
athel
Cheryl
2018-08-05 09:01:57 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
On Aug 4, 2018, Quinn C wrote (in
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Not for me. I tend to be quite obsessive about that. I write the date
like that on medicine boxes, for example 4.viii.2018 for my visit to the
pharmacy yesterday, even though I'm the only person who normally reads it.
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
--
Cheryl
s***@my-deja.com
2018-08-05 11:39:37 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
As the different date formats are well embedded in their respective
areas of use and have the potential to cause confusion internationally,
the best course of action is to write the month in letters.

10 June is neither more nor less clear than June 10.

There is a case for 2017年 12月 25日 but that IS writing the month in "letters", so to speak.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-05 12:02:33 UTC
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Cheryl
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
As the different date formats are well embedded in their respective
areas of use and have the potential to cause confusion internationally,
the best course of action is to write the month in letters.
10 June is neither more nor less clear than June 10.
The last time I had a smallpox vaccination (in 1978, a couple of months
before the last smallpox death occurred -- someone whose son (who
infected her) worked about 200 m from me) that was the format required
for writing the date on the certificate.
Post by s***@my-deja.com
There is a case for 2017年 12月 25日 but that IS writing the month in
"letters", so to speak.
--
athel
GordonD
2018-08-06 10:29:38 UTC
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Cheryl
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
As the different date formats are well embedded in their respective
areas of use and have the potential to cause confusion internationally,
the best course of action is to write the month in letters.
10 June is neither more nor less clear than June 10.
But it makes more sense, particularly when you're using ordinal numbers.

10th June means (the) tenth (day of) June

June 10th would be June (the) tenth (day) which nobody would say, except
maybe Yoda.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-08-06 11:26:35 UTC
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Post by GordonD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Cheryl
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
As the different date formats are well embedded in their respective
areas of use and have the potential to cause confusion internationally,
the best course of action is to write the month in letters.
10 June is neither more nor less clear than June 10.
But it makes more sense, particularly when you're using ordinal numbers.
10th June means (the) tenth (day of) June
June 10th would be June (the) tenth (day) which nobody would say, except
maybe Yoda.
I hate to burst your bubble but people say "June the tenth" and its
equivalent for the other days of the year all the time. I've also heard
"June ten" and "June tenth". It may not be known in your circle but
that's a long way off entitlement to claim to know what 'nobody'
would say (or indeed Yoda!)
GordonD
2018-08-06 13:12:10 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by GordonD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Cheryl
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
As the different date formats are well embedded in their
respective areas of use and have the potential to cause confusion
internationally, the best course of action is to write the month
in letters.
10 June is neither more nor less clear than June 10.
But it makes more sense, particularly when you're using ordinal numbers.
10th June means (the) tenth (day of) June
June 10th would be June (the) tenth (day) which nobody would say,
except maybe Yoda.
I hate to burst your bubble but people say "June the tenth" and its
equivalent for the other days of the year all the time. I've also
heard "June ten" and "June tenth". It may not be known in your circle
but that's a long way off entitlement to claim to know what 'nobody'
would say (or indeed Yoda!)
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest. Going month-day-year
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Ken Blake
2018-08-06 15:35:15 UTC
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Post by GordonD
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest.
To me, it's more logical to write the date as year-month-day because
you're going from the largest item to the smallest.
Post by GordonD
Going month-day-year
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
I agree.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-08-06 15:54:03 UTC
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Post by GordonD
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by GordonD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Cheryl
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
As the different date formats are well embedded in their
respective areas of use and have the potential to cause confusion
internationally, the best course of action is to write the month
in letters.
10 June is neither more nor less clear than June 10.
But it makes more sense, particularly when you're using ordinal numbers.
10th June means (the) tenth (day of) June
June 10th would be June (the) tenth (day) which nobody would say,
except maybe Yoda.
I hate to burst your bubble but people say "June the tenth" and its
equivalent for the other days of the year all the time. I've also
heard "June ten" and "June tenth". It may not be known in your circle
but that's a long way off entitlement to claim to know what 'nobody'
would say (or indeed Yoda!)
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest. Going month-day-year
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
--
It makes perfect sense to those that say and hear it. What you mean is
that it doesn't fit your hidebound logic. Well, tough. Why should it? The
calendar is by its very nature arbitrary. Why shouldn't people be allowed
to order their references by a system other than your 'size matters'
system? Who's harmed by references by significance to the speaker,
months being more important than days.

"When do you get called in for a check-up?"

"June! The tenth, I think."
s***@my-deja.com
2018-08-06 16:10:37 UTC
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Post by GordonD
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest. Going month-day-year
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Three hundred million people may be "wrong" in your view, and the month-day-year format is indeed illogical, but that is what they do, so it is better to have a solution which deals with reality.

Maybe 2007年 01月 25日 is best.
Sam Plusnet
2018-08-06 20:10:00 UTC
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest. Going month-day-year
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Three hundred million people may be "wrong" in your view, and the month-day-year format is indeed illogical, but that is what they do, so it is better to have a solution which deals with reality.
They also use Fahrenheit.

Funny lot.
--
Sam Plusnet
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-08-06 21:07:15 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest. Going month-day-year
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Three hundred million people may be "wrong" in your view, and the month-day-year format is indeed illogical, but that is what they do, so it is better to have a solution which deals with reality.
They also use Fahrenheit.
Funny lot.
British weather reports used to use Centigrade for temperatures
below freezing and Fahrenheit above. Now that really was funny!
bill van
2018-08-07 05:54:24 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest. Going month-day-year
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Three hundred million people may be "wrong" in your view, and the
month-day-year format is indeed illogical, but that is what they do, so
it is better to have a solution which deals with reality.
They also use Fahrenheit.
Funny lot.
British weather reports used to use Centigrade for temperatures
below freezing and Fahrenheit above. Now that really was funny!
The weather people around here, especially the ones attached to local
television newscasts, are fond of saying the temperature is warm, or
cold.

bill
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-07 13:45:28 UTC
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...
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
British weather reports used to use Centigrade for temperatures
below freezing and Fahrenheit above. Now that really was funny!
The weather people  around here, especially the ones attached to local
television newscasts,  are fond of saying the temperature is warm, or cold.
Here too. I've given up correcting my students on that, since they
could cite the meteorologists as authorities.
--
Jerry Friedman
s***@my-deja.com
2018-08-07 14:53:41 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
British weather reports used to use Centigrade for temperatures
below freezing and Fahrenheit above. Now that really was funny!
Are you sure? In the days when Fahrenheit was used for weather, warm days
were indeed in the sixties and seventies, but temperatures below freezing were expressed in Fahrenheit as "degrees of frost" as I remember it

So:-
+20 C was 68 F
+05 C was 41 F and
-05 c was "nine degrees of frost"

I don't think the Centigrade system was then used other than
in Chemistry lessons
Tony Cooper
2018-08-06 22:05:50 UTC
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Post by GordonD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest.
That is not how we deal with language. It may be how we stack things
on a shelf, but we use language in the way we acquire meaning as we
learn to speak. If it makes sense according to what we've acquired -
and that does to Americans - it is as logical as it needs to be.
Post by GordonD
Going month-day-year
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
You really want to go with that as an example?

"It is ten-thirty and fifteen seconds" and "It is fifteen seconds
after ten-thirty" should both be sensible to anyone who is concerned
about the accuracy to-the-second. (Although, by the time that is said
it is no longer accurate)
Post by GordonD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Three hundred million people may be "wrong" in your view, and the month-day-year format is indeed illogical, but that is what they do, so it is better to have a solution which deals with reality.
They also use Fahrenheit.
Funny lot.
I have difficulty understanding why a month-day-year format and the
use of Fahrenheit is "illogical". Both are easily understandable to
work with by the users of the system. Neither defies the concept of
logic in use.

It's like an American saying that French is an illogical language
because it is not the language we use.

True, they do not travel well. If I tell you that the temperature is
89 degrees (which it is here), you may not ken that statement. But,
if you reply that 32 degrees would be uncomfortable, that is just as
"illogical" to me.

"Illogical" is not a synonym for "different".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2018-08-06 22:37:46 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
If I tell you that the temperature is
89 degrees (which it is here), you may not ken that statement. But,
if you reply that 32 degrees would be uncomfortable, that is just as
"illogical" to me.
You find a temperature near the freezing point comfortable? Why do you
live in Florida?
--
Certain writers assert very decidedly that no pronouns are
needed beyond those we already possess, but this is simply a
dogmatic opinion, unsupported by the facts.
-- Findlay (OH) Jeffersonian (1875)
Horace LaBadie
2018-08-06 23:19:22 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
If I tell you that the temperature is
89 degrees (which it is here), you may not ken that statement. But,
if you reply that 32 degrees would be uncomfortable, that is just as
"illogical" to me.
You find a temperature near the freezing point comfortable? Why do you
live in Florida?
32 C = 89 F.

But you knew that.
CDB
2018-08-07 15:46:45 UTC
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Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
If I tell you that the temperature is 89 degrees (which it is
here), you may not ken that statement. But, if you reply that
32 degrees would be uncomfortable, that is just as "illogical"
to me.
You find a temperature near the freezing point comfortable?
I do, if suitably jacketted.
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Why do you live in Florida?
Thank you, God, for not making me live in Florida.
Post by Horace LaBadie
32 C = 89 F.
Or 90 F, if you round to the nearest F.
Post by Horace LaBadie
But you knew that.
Sam Plusnet
2018-08-07 00:04:02 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
Post by GordonD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest.
That is not how we deal with language. It may be how we stack things
on a shelf, but we use language in the way we acquire meaning as we
learn to speak. If it makes sense according to what we've acquired -
and that does to Americans - it is as logical as it needs to be.
Post by GordonD
Going month-day-year
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
You really want to go with that as an example?
"It is ten-thirty and fifteen seconds" and "It is fifteen seconds
after ten-thirty" should both be sensible to anyone who is concerned
about the accuracy to-the-second. (Although, by the time that is said
it is no longer accurate)
Post by GordonD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Three hundred million people may be "wrong" in your view, and the month-day-year format is indeed illogical, but that is what they do, so it is better to have a solution which deals with reality.
They also use Fahrenheit.
Funny lot.
I have difficulty understanding why a month-day-year format and the
use of Fahrenheit is "illogical". Both are easily understandable to
work with by the users of the system. Neither defies the concept of
logic in use.
Anyone found my "tongue-in-cheek" icon?
I'm sure it was here a moment ago.
--
Sam Plusnet
Snidely
2018-08-07 09:30:44 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by GordonD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest.
That is not how we deal with language. It may be how we stack things
on a shelf, but we use language in the way we acquire meaning as we
learn to speak. If it makes sense according to what we've acquired -
and that does to Americans - it is as logical as it needs to be.
Post by GordonD
Going month-day-year
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
You really want to go with that as an example?
"It is ten-thirty and fifteen seconds" and "It is fifteen seconds
after ten-thirty" should both be sensible to anyone who is concerned
about the accuracy to-the-second. (Although, by the time that is said
it is no longer accurate)
Post by GordonD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
-- Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Three hundred million people may be "wrong" in your view, and the
month-day-year format is indeed illogical, but that is what they do, so
it is better to have a solution which deals with reality.
They also use Fahrenheit.
Funny lot.
I have difficulty understanding why a month-day-year format and the
use of Fahrenheit is "illogical". Both are easily understandable to
work with by the users of the system. Neither defies the concept of
logic in use.
Anyone found my "tongue-in-cheek" icon?
I'm sure it was here a moment ago.
Metric tongue, or Imperial?

/dps
--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013
Peter Moylan
2018-08-07 09:58:20 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
Going month-day-year makes as much sense as giving the time as
"ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
You really want to go with that as an example?
You might have misread the example. He was criticising it as a way of
saying "ten fifteen and thirty seconds", putting the least significant
part in the middle.
Post by Tony Cooper
"It is ten-thirty and fifteen seconds" and "It is fifteen seconds
after ten-thirty" should both be sensible to anyone who is concerned
about the accuracy to-the-second. (Although, by the time that is
said it is no longer accurate)
Ah, but it is, provided that it's preceded by "At the third stroke, ".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
s***@my-deja.com
2018-08-07 15:01:48 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
I have difficulty understanding why a month-day-year format and the
use of Fahrenheit is "illogical". Both are easily understandable to
work with by the users of the system. Neither defies the concept of
logic in use.
It's like an American saying that French is an illogical language
because it is not the language we use.
True, they do not travel well. If I tell you that the temperature is
89 degrees (which it is here), you may not ken that statement. But,
if you reply that 32 degrees would be uncomfortable, that is just as
"illogical" to me.
"Illogical" is not a synonym for "different".
Yes, the best system for anybody is the one they are already well used to.

It can be argued that month, day, year is illogical, but that is what
many people are used to. What to me is important it that the date you write
is clear enough to be understood by others who use a different system.
HVS
2018-08-07 15:20:19 UTC
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Tony Cooper
I have difficulty understanding why a month-day-year format and the
use of Fahrenheit is "illogical". Both are easily understandable to
work with by the users of the system. Neither defies the concept of
logic in use.
It's like an American saying that French is an illogical language
because it is not the language we use.
True, they do not travel well. If I tell you that the temperature is
89 degrees (which it is here), you may not ken that statement. But,
if you reply that 32 degrees would be uncomfortable, that is just as
"illogical" to me.
"Illogical" is not a synonym for "different".
Yes, the best system for anybody is the one they are already well used to.
It can be argued that month, day, year is illogical, but that is what
many people are used to. What to me is important it that the date you write
is clear enough to be understood by others who use a different system.
+1

As mentioned elsethread, the only fully unambiguous way to present a date is
to identify the month by name rather than number, a both MM-DD-YY and DD-MM-
YY will fail that test.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
Tony Cooper
2018-08-07 15:57:08 UTC
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Tony Cooper
I have difficulty understanding why a month-day-year format and the
use of Fahrenheit is "illogical". Both are easily understandable to
work with by the users of the system. Neither defies the concept of
logic in use.
It's like an American saying that French is an illogical language
because it is not the language we use.
True, they do not travel well. If I tell you that the temperature is
89 degrees (which it is here), you may not ken that statement. But,
if you reply that 32 degrees would be uncomfortable, that is just as
"illogical" to me.
"Illogical" is not a synonym for "different".
Yes, the best system for anybody is the one they are already well used to.
It can be argued that month, day, year is illogical, but that is what
many people are used to. What to me is important it that the date you write
is clear enough to be understood by others who use a different system.
The point that I tried to make (and failed to, according to a RR who
emailed me) is that we can understand a different system if we
understand that the information presented is in that other system's
format.

I can understand "32" if I know that the person using that temperature
system is using the Celsius format. He should be able to understand
my birth date was in May, not November, when I write 05-11-1938 if he
knows that I am using the American format.

The problem arises only when there is not sufficient context to know
what system the speaker/write is using.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-06 23:24:02 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by GordonD
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest. Going month-day-year
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Three hundred million people may be "wrong" in your view, and the
month-day-year format is indeed illogical, but that is what they do,
so it is better to have a solution which deals with reality.
They also use Fahrenheit.
Funny lot.
Miles, too.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-06 17:32:22 UTC
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Post by GordonD
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by GordonD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Cheryl
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
As the different date formats are well embedded in their
respective areas of use and have the potential to cause confusion
internationally, the best course of action is to write the month
in letters.
10 June is neither more nor less clear than June 10.
But it makes more sense, particularly when you're using ordinal numbers.
10th June means (the) tenth (day of) June
June 10th would be June (the) tenth (day) which nobody would say,
except maybe Yoda.
I hate to burst your bubble but people say "June the tenth" and its
equivalent for the other days of the year all the time. I've also
heard "June ten" and "June tenth". It may not be known in your circle
but that's a long way off entitlement to claim to know what 'nobody'
would say (or indeed Yoda!)
Not what I wrote. Yes, "June the tenth" is commonly said but it doesn't
make any sense. It's logical to write the date as day-month-year because
you're going from the smallest item to the largest. Going month-day-year
makes as much sense as giving the time as "ten-thirty seconds-fifteen."
I think you've been reading too many of the hen's messages, as it
wasn't really obvious what your parentheses meant.
--
athel
Ken Blake
2018-08-05 14:42:46 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
On Aug 4, 2018, Quinn C wrote (in
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Not for me. I tend to be quite obsessive about that. I write the date
like that on medicine boxes, for example 4.viii.2018 for my visit to the
pharmacy yesterday, even though I'm the only person who normally reads it.
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
In a message in this thread moments ago, I suggested YYYY/MM/DD, but
your use of hyphens is just as good as mine of slashes.
Tony Cooper
2018-08-05 15:37:21 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by Cheryl
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
On Aug 4, 2018, Quinn C wrote (in
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Not for me. I tend to be quite obsessive about that. I write the date
like that on medicine boxes, for example 4.viii.2018 for my visit to the
pharmacy yesterday, even though I'm the only person who normally reads it.
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
In a message in this thread moments ago, I suggested YYYY/MM/DD, but
your use of hyphens is just as good as mine of slashes.
I name all of my photographs in the YYYY-MM-DD format for sorting
purposes. I don't use the slashes because some programs don't allow
slashes in file names or don't sort file names properly if slashes are
used.

If I'm writing a letter (a rare event, now), I'll use August 5, 2018
in the body. But, the resulting (word processing) file will be
2018-08-05-01.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Will Parsons
2018-08-07 01:37:01 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by Cheryl
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
On Aug 4, 2018, Quinn C wrote (in
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Not for me. I tend to be quite obsessive about that. I write the date
like that on medicine boxes, for example 4.viii.2018 for my visit to the
pharmacy yesterday, even though I'm the only person who normally reads it.
I almost invariably use YYYY-MM-DD.
In a message in this thread moments ago, I suggested YYYY/MM/DD, but
your use of hyphens is just as good as mine of slashes.
It's as good as, and furthermore, it's an actual international (ISO)
standard.
--
Will
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 12:40:35 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Not for me. I tend to be quite obsessive about that. I write the date
like that on medicine boxes, for example 4.viii.2018 for my visit to
the pharmacy yesterday, even though I'm the only person who normally
reads it.
Why would you need to write it? The printed adhesive label wrapped around
our prescription bottles carries both the date of the prescription and the
date it was filled and the expiration date ("do not use after" -- always
one year from the date of filling). As well as the patient's name, the
prescriber's name, etc. etc.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-05 13:44:04 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Not for me. I tend to be quite obsessive about that. I write the date
like that on medicine boxes, for example 4.viii.2018 for my visit to
the pharmacy yesterday, even though I'm the only person who normally
reads it.
Why would you need to write it?
The word "need" doesn't occur in what you're quoting. I don't _need_ to
know, but I like to know which packet is the oldest. It's much easier
to read something in big letters written with a marker pen than it is
to hunt around for a tiny date.

Besides, I said I was obsessive about it: that means I don't have to
have a reason that satisfies everyone.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The printed adhesive label wrapped around
our prescription bottles carries both the date of the prescription and the
date it was filled and the expiration date ("do not use after" -- always
one year from the date of filling). As well as the patient's name, the
prescriber's name, etc. etc.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 14:04:37 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Not for me. I tend to be quite obsessive about that. I write the date
like that on medicine boxes, for example 4.viii.2018 for my visit to
the pharmacy yesterday, even though I'm the only person who normally
reads it.
Why would you need to write it?
The word "need" doesn't occur in what you're quoting. I don't _need_ to
know, but I like to know which packet is the oldest. It's much easier
to read something in big letters written with a marker pen than it is
to hunt around for a tiny date.
That raises a different question. Why would you have two packets of the
same medication, one older and one newer? Our prescriptions, for chronic
conditions, usually provide 30 days' worth (sometimes 90, but those are
more likely to be mail-order). A few days before the supply is exhausted,
we go get a new one. It's difficult to confuse a nearly empty pill bottle
with a full one.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Besides, I said I was obsessive about it: that means I don't have to
have a reason that satisfies everyone.
It might mean you could seek help for a mild (one hopes) obsessive disorder.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The printed adhesive label wrapped around
our prescription bottles carries both the date of the prescription and the
date it was filled and the expiration date ("do not use after" -- always
one year from the date of filling). As well as the patient's name, the
prescriber's name, etc. etc.
Ken Blake
2018-08-05 14:34:27 UTC
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On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 10:45:07 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
On Aug 4, 2018, Quinn C wrote (in
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
That's also what I thought when I first saw it. But it took me only a
second or two to realize that it meant May 23, 2019.

I don't like the US MMDDYY format either, but to me what's wrong with
this example is the absence of spaces around the 23, not the order of
the date's components.
Tak To
2018-08-05 21:49:38 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
On Aug 4, 2018, Quinn C wrote (in
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019? What school you went?
In my school we used four-digit dates, so I thought it meant May of the
year 2319, rather than 23 May 1919.
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
A very likely scenario is that the people who design these
machines are given a high priority to minimize cost, lest
the company lose a bid.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
s***@my-deja.com
2018-08-06 16:00:24 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Does it not depend on whether the contents of the box or letter were or will be relevant a hundred years ago or a hundred years in the future?
Cheryl
2018-08-06 16:09:03 UTC
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Does it not depend on whether the contents of the box or letter were or will be relevant a hundred years ago or a hundred years in the future?
And on whether the "18" in an abbreviated date means the 18th day of
some month, or 2018. Sometimes, of course, the year comes last, which is
a hint, but sometimes it doesn't - and sometimes you don't have all the
data. Is 2/18 anytime in February, 2018 or February 18 of the current
year (or possibly some other year mentioned elsewhere in the text)?
--
Cheryl
charles
2018-08-06 16:18:49 UTC
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Does it not depend on whether the contents of the box or letter were or
will be relevant a hundred years ago or a hundred years in the future?
When computer memory was tiny, it saved space to omit the century. And
then the year 2000 turned up with older programs still in use.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter Moylan
2018-08-07 01:30:49 UTC
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Post by charles
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove
ambiguity by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra
digits so much hard work?
Does it not depend on whether the contents of the box or letter
were or will be relevant a hundred years ago or a hundred years in
the future?
Consider a birth certificate that says that someone was born on 8/5/53.
Genealogists would be very interested in knowing whether that meant 1853
or 1953. That's even more important than knowing whether the month was
May or August.
Post by charles
When computer memory was tiny, it saved space to omit the century.
And then the year 2000 turned up with older programs still in use.
And, as the year 2000 approached, there was considerable panic, and a
great deal of money was spent to ensure that the financial system would
not collapse. Liberal amounts of Y2KY jelly were used to permit the
insertion of two extra digits.

Then the year 2001 turned up, and the idiots deleted the two extra
digits again. Everyone just decided that their company or their nation
or whatever would not survive past the year 2100.

Nobody learnt from experience. There will be another panic in 9999,
because nobody saw it coming.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
David Kleinecke
2018-08-07 01:41:29 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by charles
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove
ambiguity by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra
digits so much hard work?
Does it not depend on whether the contents of the box or letter
were or will be relevant a hundred years ago or a hundred years in
the future?
Consider a birth certificate that says that someone was born on 8/5/53.
Genealogists would be very interested in knowing whether that meant 1853
or 1953. That's even more important than knowing whether the month was
May or August.
Post by charles
When computer memory was tiny, it saved space to omit the century.
And then the year 2000 turned up with older programs still in use.
And, as the year 2000 approached, there was considerable panic, and a
great deal of money was spent to ensure that the financial system would
not collapse. Liberal amounts of Y2KY jelly were used to permit the
insertion of two extra digits.
Then the year 2001 turned up, and the idiots deleted the two extra
digits again. Everyone just decided that their company or their nation
or whatever would not survive past the year 2100.
Nobody learnt from experience. There will be another panic in 9999,
because nobody saw it coming.
Generally speaking people do not appreciate what a great
victory Y2K was. Of course, it is always harder to see things
that aren't there. We shouted and screamed and something
got done. No disaster. No thanks.
Quinn C
2018-08-07 02:10:19 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by charles
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove
ambiguity by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra
digits so much hard work?
Does it not depend on whether the contents of the box or letter
were or will be relevant a hundred years ago or a hundred years in
the future?
Consider a birth certificate that says that someone was born on 8/5/53.
Genealogists would be very interested in knowing whether that meant 1853
or 1953. That's even more important than knowing whether the month was
May or August.
Post by charles
When computer memory was tiny, it saved space to omit the century.
And then the year 2000 turned up with older programs still in use.
And, as the year 2000 approached, there was considerable panic, and a
great deal of money was spent to ensure that the financial system would
not collapse. Liberal amounts of Y2KY jelly were used to permit the
insertion of two extra digits.
Then the year 2001 turned up, and the idiots deleted the two extra
digits again. Everyone just decided that their company or their nation
or whatever would not survive past the year 2100.
Nobody learnt from experience. There will be another panic in 9999,
because nobody saw it coming.
Don't forget the year 2038 problem!
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
Peter Moylan
2018-08-07 05:32:20 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
In article
On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 1:45:13 AM UTC+1, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to
remove ambiguity by giving the full year number. Is writing
two extra digits so much hard work?
Does it not depend on whether the contents of the box or
letter were or will be relevant a hundred years ago or a
hundred years in the future?
Consider a birth certificate that says that someone was born on
8/5/53. Genealogists would be very interested in knowing whether
that meant 1853 or 1953. That's even more important than knowing
whether the month was May or August.
When computer memory was tiny, it saved space to omit the
century. And then the year 2000 turned up with older programs
still in use.
And, as the year 2000 approached, there was considerable panic, and
a great deal of money was spent to ensure that the financial system
would not collapse. Liberal amounts of Y2KY jelly were used to
permit the insertion of two extra digits.
Then the year 2001 turned up, and the idiots deleted the two extra
digits again. Everyone just decided that their company or their
nation or whatever would not survive past the year 2100.
Nobody learnt from experience. There will be another panic in
9999, because nobody saw it coming.
Don't forget the year 2038 problem!
My best estimate of my date of death suggests that it will be in 2038,
so we don't need to worry about that problem.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-07 15:44:54 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by charles
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove
ambiguity by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra
digits so much hard work?
Does it not depend on whether the contents of the box or letter
were or will be relevant a hundred years ago or a hundred years in
the future?
Consider a birth certificate that says that someone was born on 8/5/53.
Genealogists would be very interested in knowing whether that meant 1853
or 1953. That's even more important than knowing whether the month was
May or August.
Post by charles
When computer memory was tiny, it saved space to omit the century.
And then the year 2000 turned up with older programs still in use.
And, as the year 2000 approached, there was considerable panic, and a
great deal of money was spent to ensure that the financial system would
not collapse. Liberal amounts of Y2KY jelly were used to permit the
insertion of two extra digits.
Then the year 2001 turned up, and the idiots deleted the two extra
digits again. Everyone just decided that their company or their nation
or whatever would not survive past the year 2100.
Nobody learnt from experience. There will be another panic in 9999,
because nobody saw it coming.
Will people still be programming in COBOL in 9999? Are they still in 2018?
--
athel
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-08-07 15:59:42 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by charles
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove
ambiguity by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra
digits so much hard work?
Does it not depend on whether the contents of the box or letter
were or will be relevant a hundred years ago or a hundred years in
the future?
Consider a birth certificate that says that someone was born on 8/5/53.
Genealogists would be very interested in knowing whether that meant 1853
or 1953. That's even more important than knowing whether the month was
May or August.
Post by charles
When computer memory was tiny, it saved space to omit the century.
And then the year 2000 turned up with older programs still in use.
And, as the year 2000 approached, there was considerable panic, and a
great deal of money was spent to ensure that the financial system would
not collapse. Liberal amounts of Y2KY jelly were used to permit the
insertion of two extra digits.
Then the year 2001 turned up, and the idiots deleted the two extra
digits again. Everyone just decided that their company or their nation
or whatever would not survive past the year 2100.
Nobody learnt from experience. There will be another panic in 9999,
because nobody saw it coming.
Will people still be programming in COBOL in 9999? Are they still in 2018?
The jobs advertised for COBOL programmers suggest that they are
in surprisingly large numbers.

Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-06 17:40:52 UTC
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter Moylan
I remain puzzled by the reluctance of so many people to remove ambiguity
by giving the full year number. Is writing two extra digits so much hard
work?
Does it not depend on whether the contents of the box or letter were or
will be relevant a hundred years ago or a hundred years in the future?
That reminds of what I once read about the New York Times's custom of
writing "Mr Hubert H. Humphrey, Vice-President of the United States of
America" in news addressed to people who knew perfectly well who the
Vice-President was and which United States he was Vice-President of
(Brazil? Mexico? Probably neither). You can tell how long ago I read
this by the example given. The idea was that that New York Times saw
itself as a newspaper of record that people would still be reading in
2068.
--
athel
Richard Tobin
2018-08-05 13:49:00 UTC
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Post by Joe W Dee
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019?
You think so? Why would something with such a distant date specify
a precise day, rather than just a month?

-- Richard
Garrett Wollman
2018-08-05 14:31:10 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Joe W Dee
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019?
You think so? Why would something with such a distant date specify
a precise day, rather than just a month?
Because that's how they specify which batch it was, in case it needs
to be recalled. Avoids printing an additional lot number on the
package.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Quinn C
2018-08-05 14:36:47 UTC
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Post by Joe W Dee
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019?
What school you went?
One where we learned a superior date format ("23. Mai 2019").
--
Spell checker (n.) One who gives examinations on witchcraft.
Herman Rubin in sci.lang

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't think this is the usual meaning of
"spell checker"
John Varela
2018-08-06 23:30:49 UTC
Reply
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On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 14:36:47 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Joe W Dee
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019?
What school you went?
One where we learned a superior date format ("23. Mai 2019").
Not as superior as YYYY-MM-DD (with or without the separators) and
anyway what purpose does that . serve?
--
John Varela
Garrett Wollman
2018-08-07 01:58:05 UTC
Reply
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Post by John Varela
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 14:36:47 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
One where we learned a superior date format ("23. Mai 2019").
Not as superior as YYYY-MM-DD (with or without the separators) and
anyway what purpose does that . serve?
It makes it the ordinal, twenty-third, rather than the cardinal
twenty-three.

If Quinn were using the all-numeric format common in Germany and
Northern Europe, they would have written "23. 5. 2019" (with or
without spaces).

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Cheryl
2018-08-07 09:19:42 UTC
Reply
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by John Varela
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 14:36:47 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
One where we learned a superior date format ("23. Mai 2019").
Not as superior as YYYY-MM-DD (with or without the separators) and
anyway what purpose does that . serve?
It makes it the ordinal, twenty-third, rather than the cardinal
twenty-three.
If Quinn were using the all-numeric format common in Germany and
Northern Europe, they would have written "23. 5. 2019" (with or
without spaces).
I wonder if that's why one piece of software I have uses 2018.08.07? I
never saw the period used like that before, and I would use - or / or
even nothing in its place. No doubt there's some setting somewhere in
the system that would allow me to modify that, but I haven't bothered to
make a serious effort to find it.
--
Cheryl
Quinn C
2018-08-07 02:03:23 UTC
Reply
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Post by John Varela
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 14:36:47 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Joe W Dee
Best before: MAY2319
You can't discern that it means May 23 2019?
What school you went?
One where we learned a superior date format ("23. Mai 2019").
Not as superior as YYYY-MM-DD (with or without the separators)
Admittedly. But it was the only order in formal use for decades before
that ISO norm was established. I don't remember that there was ever
much guesswork involved with reading dates. Nowadays there is more of
it, because now the traditional norm competes with the ISO one.
Post by John Varela
and
anyway what purpose does that . serve?
It's the German equivalent of English "th". It makes ordinal numbers.
If you write the month in numbers, it's "23.5.2019" (with half-spaces
in proper typography).

Monarchs get it, too:
"Elisabeth II. ist die Tochter von Georg VI. und ..."
--
Bug:
An elusive creature living in a program that makes it incorrect.
The activity of "debugging," or removing bugs from a program, ends
when people get tired of doing it, not when the bugs are removed.

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't believe this fairly describes all
debugging.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 03:03:27 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
It does seem odd that they specify the day of the month. Presumably the
item was packaged on 24 May 2018.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-05 05:48:38 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
It does seem odd that they specify the day of the month. Presumably the
item was packaged on 24 May 2018.
I've seen packages that specify the time: 09.47 24 May 2018.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-08-05 17:00:20 UTC
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On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 07:48:38 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
It does seem odd that they specify the day of the month. Presumably the
item was packaged on 24 May 2018.
I've seen packages that specify the time: 09.47 24 May 2018.
That is reasonable because it could be used if there has been a problem
in the production of the items. A time range could be used in place of a
batch number.
"Don't use any XYZ marked 09.41 24 May 2018 to 13.25 26 May 2018
inclusive."
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-05 17:02:30 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 07:48:38 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
It does seem odd that they specify the day of the month. Presumably the
item was packaged on 24 May 2018.
I've seen packages that specify the time: 09.47 24 May 2018.
That is reasonable because it could be used if there has been a problem
in the production of the items. A time range could be used in place of a
batch number."Don't use any XYZ marked 09.41 24 May 2018 to 13.25 26 May 2018
inclusive."
That makes sense, but I think people who buy meat from dodgy
supermarkets are usually told to check batch numbers.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 17:11:46 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 07:48:38 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
It does seem odd that they specify the day of the month. Presumably the
item was packaged on 24 May 2018.
I've seen packages that specify the time: 09.47 24 May 2018.
That is reasonable because it could be used if there has been a problem
in the production of the items. A time range could be used in place of a
batch number."Don't use any XYZ marked 09.41 24 May 2018 to 13.25 26 May 2018
inclusive."
That makes sense, but I think people who buy meat from dodgy
supermarkets are usually told to check batch numbers.
Recalls of packaged foods (for salmonella, E. coli, etc.) are announced
with both date and batch numbers; also, any particular batch can usually
be identified with a particular geographical area.
Horace LaBadie
2018-08-05 13:56:43 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
That's not a complaint about the date format. It's a complaint about
formatting, the lack of spaces.
Quinn C
2018-08-05 14:34:37 UTC
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Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
That's not a complaint about the date format. It's a complaint about
formatting, the lack of spaces.
My point was that better date formats are immune to bad spacing as
well. It's quite positive that they use "AUG" instead of another number
that could be confused, but then they ruin it again by putting both
numbers on the same side (and shortening the year).

23MAY19 would still be somewhat ambiguous, 23MAY2019 not at all.
MAY232019 would still be hard to read.
--
Strategy: A long-range plan whose merit cannot be evaluated
until sometime after those creating it have left the organization.

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't believe all strategy is like that
Tony Cooper
2018-08-05 15:07:55 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 10:34:37 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
That's not a complaint about the date format. It's a complaint about
formatting, the lack of spaces.
My point was that better date formats are immune to bad spacing as
well. It's quite positive that they use "AUG" instead of another number
that could be confused, but then they ruin it again by putting both
numbers on the same side (and shortening the year).
23MAY19 would still be somewhat ambiguous, 23MAY2019 not at all.
MAY232019 would still be hard to read.
Isn't there a common sense aspect to this? You haven't stated what
type of product is involved. If it's a container of milk, common
sense tells you that the month and day of the expiration date are the
vital numbers. If it's a container of spice, the year becomes a bit
more vital.

By the way...why is this a "US date format" issue? If you are in
Canada, and the product was made/packaged/labeled in Canada, isn't the
company that made/packaged/labeled the product the party in remiss?

I don't recognize "MAY2319" as the US date format. Omitting any of
the four-digit year numbers is not at all a standard date format here.
Nor is it a US date format standard to omit spaces. The standard
formats either include spaces or slashes.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2018-08-05 15:48:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 10:34:37 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
That's not a complaint about the date format. It's a complaint about
formatting, the lack of spaces.
My point was that better date formats are immune to bad spacing as
well. It's quite positive that they use "AUG" instead of another number
that could be confused, but then they ruin it again by putting both
numbers on the same side (and shortening the year).
23MAY19 would still be somewhat ambiguous, 23MAY2019 not at all.
MAY232019 would still be hard to read.
Isn't there a common sense aspect to this? You haven't stated what
type of product is involved. If it's a container of milk, common
sense tells you that the month and day of the expiration date are the
vital numbers. If it's a container of spice, the year becomes a bit
more vital.
The product is "Craisins" (dried cranberries.)

It isn't legal here to sell milk imported from the US to consumers.
Probably not even milk imported from Ontario.

(Last week, on a Montreal radio station: "We have a caller from
Hamilton, Alberta!" - "Thank you! We love our international audience!")
Post by Tony Cooper
By the way...why is this a "US date format" issue? If you are in
Canada, and the product was made/packaged/labeled in Canada, isn't the
company that made/packaged/labeled the product the party in remiss?
I guess either it's acceptable as a date format on imported products,
or the "proper Canadian" labeling isn't enforced in this respect.

I don't think I've ever seen it on made in Canada products, though,
spaces aside. From memory, I'd say they always have the month in the
middle, and they usually use a two-letter abbreviation for the month
which covers English and French at the same time. There is, however,
variation in whether the year or the day comes first, and there are
products with two-letter years, so sometimes it is ambiguous.

Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the US,
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a lot
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it bears
a local store brand.
Post by Tony Cooper
I don't recognize "MAY2319" as the US date format. Omitting any of
the four-digit year numbers is not at all a standard date format here.
Nor is it a US date format standard to omit spaces. The standard
formats either include spaces or slashes.
I would bet (a small amount) that that product is labeled the same in
the US. It's a US format because of the order month-day-year, which
doesn't occur in formal use in Canada or Europe, whatever the
formatting (numbers, letters, spaces).
--
Strategy: A long-range plan whose merit cannot be evaluated
until sometime after those creating it have left the organization.

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't believe all strategy is like that
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 16:43:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 10:34:37 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
That's not a complaint about the date format. It's a complaint about
formatting, the lack of spaces.
My point was that better date formats are immune to bad spacing as
well. It's quite positive that they use "AUG" instead of another number
that could be confused, but then they ruin it again by putting both
numbers on the same side (and shortening the year).
23MAY19 would still be somewhat ambiguous, 23MAY2019 not at all.
MAY232019 would still be hard to read.
Isn't there a common sense aspect to this? You haven't stated what
type of product is involved. If it's a container of milk, common
sense tells you that the month and day of the expiration date are the
vital numbers. If it's a container of spice, the year becomes a bit
more vital.
The product is "Craisins" (dried cranberries.)
It isn't legal here to sell milk imported from the US to consumers.
Probably not even milk imported from Ontario.
(Last week, on a Montreal radio station: "We have a caller from
Hamilton, Alberta!" - "Thank you! We love our international audience!")
Post by Tony Cooper
By the way...why is this a "US date format" issue? If you are in
Canada, and the product was made/packaged/labeled in Canada, isn't the
company that made/packaged/labeled the product the party in remiss?
I guess either it's acceptable as a date format on imported products,
or the "proper Canadian" labeling isn't enforced in this respect.
I don't think I've ever seen it on made in Canada products, though,
spaces aside. From memory, I'd say they always have the month in the
middle, and they usually use a two-letter abbreviation for the month
which covers English and French at the same time. There is, however,
variation in whether the year or the day comes first, and there are
products with two-letter years, so sometimes it is ambiguous.
Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the US,
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a lot
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it bears
a local store brand.
Post by Tony Cooper
I don't recognize "MAY2319" as the US date format. Omitting any of
the four-digit year numbers is not at all a standard date format here.
Nor is it a US date format standard to omit spaces. The standard
formats either include spaces or slashes.
I would bet (a small amount) that that product is labeled the same in
the US. It's a US format because of the order month-day-year, which
doesn't occur in formal use in Canada or Europe, whatever the
formatting (numbers, letters, spaces).
You-all in this thread seem to be forgetting that writing dates long,
long preceded sorting by computers, so the "bestness" of YYYY-M-DD
is not relevant to centuries of tradition.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-05 17:00:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 10:34:37 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
That's not a complaint about the date format. It's a complaint about
formatting, the lack of spaces.
My point was that better date formats are immune to bad spacing as
well. It's quite positive that they use "AUG" instead of another number
that could be confused, but then they ruin it again by putting both
numbers on the same side (and shortening the year).
23MAY19 would still be somewhat ambiguous, 23MAY2019 not at all.
MAY232019 would still be hard to read.
Isn't there a common sense aspect to this? You haven't stated what
type of product is involved. If it's a container of milk, common
sense tells you that the month and day of the expiration date are the
vital numbers. If it's a container of spice, the year becomes a bit
more vital.
The product is "Craisins" (dried cranberries.)
It isn't legal here to sell milk imported from the US to consumers.
Probably not even milk imported from Ontario.
(Last week, on a Montreal radio station: "We have a caller from
Hamilton, Alberta!" - "Thank you! We love our international audience!")
Post by Tony Cooper
By the way...why is this a "US date format" issue? If you are in
Canada, and the product was made/packaged/labeled in Canada, isn't the
company that made/packaged/labeled the product the party in remiss?
I guess either it's acceptable as a date format on imported products,
or the "proper Canadian" labeling isn't enforced in this respect.
I don't think I've ever seen it on made in Canada products, though,
spaces aside. From memory, I'd say they always have the month in the
middle, and they usually use a two-letter abbreviation for the month
which covers English and French at the same time. There is, however,
variation in whether the year or the day comes first, and there are
products with two-letter years, so sometimes it is ambiguous.
Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the US,
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a lot
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it bears
a local store brand.
Post by Tony Cooper
I don't recognize "MAY2319" as the US date format. Omitting any of
the four-digit year numbers is not at all a standard date format here.
Nor is it a US date format standard to omit spaces. The standard
formats either include spaces or slashes.
I would bet (a small amount) that that product is labeled the same in
the US. It's a US format because of the order month-day-year, which
doesn't occur in formal use in Canada or Europe, whatever the
formatting (numbers, letters, spaces).
You-all in this thread seem to be forgetting that writing dates long,
long preceded sorting by computers, so the "bestness" of YYYY-M-DD
is not relevant to centuries of tradition.
Today is Nonis Augustis MMDCCLXXI A.U.C. by a much older tradition.
Should we never change to a better system? Incidentally I was surprised
to see that today is the Nones: I thought it was the 9th in March,
July, October and May, and the 7th in other months, but it was more
than half a century ago that I cared about such things (other than for
the Ides of March, which any fule kno).

Besides, it's not about computer sorting; it's about being intelligible
to people who don't live in the USA. OK, you don't care about that any
more than Mr Trump does, and will continue to call the 11th September
nine eleven, but other people care.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 17:07:38 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You-all in this thread seem to be forgetting that writing dates long,
long preceded sorting by computers, so the "bestness" of YYYY-M-DD
is not relevant to centuries of tradition.
Today is Nonis Augustis MMDCCLXXI A.U.C. by a much older tradition.
Should we never change to a better system?
Most of the world switched to the Seleucid Era a long time ago.

Then some religious guy thought he knew better (and messed up the
calculation, and didn't even know about zero).

Note that you've given day-month-year.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Incidentally I was surprised
to see that today is the Nones: I thought it was the 9th in March,
July, October and May, and the 7th in other months, but it was more
than half a century ago that I cared about such things (other than for
the Ides of March, which any fule kno).
Besides, it's not about computer sorting;
That's the excuse most of them have given.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
it's about being intelligible
to people who don't live in the USA. OK, you don't care about that any
more than Mr Trump does, and will continue to call the 11th September
nine eleven, but other people care.
And that's why your (well, your the Brits') own terrorist attack was so
conveniently on "7/7."
Richard Yates
2018-08-05 19:12:43 UTC
Reply
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On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:48:34 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 10:34:37 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
That's not a complaint about the date format. It's a complaint about
formatting, the lack of spaces.
My point was that better date formats are immune to bad spacing as
well. It's quite positive that they use "AUG" instead of another number
that could be confused, but then they ruin it again by putting both
numbers on the same side (and shortening the year).
23MAY19 would still be somewhat ambiguous, 23MAY2019 not at all.
MAY232019 would still be hard to read.
Isn't there a common sense aspect to this? You haven't stated what
type of product is involved. If it's a container of milk, common
sense tells you that the month and day of the expiration date are the
vital numbers. If it's a container of spice, the year becomes a bit
more vital.
The product is "Craisins" (dried cranberries.)
It isn't legal here to sell milk imported from the US to consumers.
Probably not even milk imported from Ontario.
(Last week, on a Montreal radio station: "We have a caller from
Hamilton, Alberta!" - "Thank you! We love our international audience!")
Post by Tony Cooper
By the way...why is this a "US date format" issue? If you are in
Canada, and the product was made/packaged/labeled in Canada, isn't the
company that made/packaged/labeled the product the party in remiss?
I guess either it's acceptable as a date format on imported products,
or the "proper Canadian" labeling isn't enforced in this respect.
I don't think I've ever seen it on made in Canada products, though,
spaces aside. From memory, I'd say they always have the month in the
middle, and they usually use a two-letter abbreviation for the month
which covers English and French at the same time. There is, however,
variation in whether the year or the day comes first, and there are
products with two-letter years, so sometimes it is ambiguous.
Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the US,
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a lot
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it bears
a local store brand.
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that format
what do MA or JU mean?
HVS
2018-08-05 19:46:16 UTC
Reply
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On Sun, 05 Aug 2018 12:12:43 -0700, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:48:34 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the US,
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a lot
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it bears
a local store brand.
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that
format
Post by Richard Yates
what do MA or JU mean?
I'd guess they're the ones that aren't marked as MR or JL.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 19:57:38 UTC
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Post by HVS
On Sun, 05 Aug 2018 12:12:43 -0700, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:48:34 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the
US,
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a
lot
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it
bears
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
a local store brand.
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that
format
Post by Richard Yates
what do MA or JU mean?
I'd guess they're the ones that aren't marked as MR or JL.
I.e., MY and JN. Two-letter month abbreviations are pretty standard.
Sam Plusnet
2018-08-05 21:54:32 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
On Sun, 05 Aug 2018 12:12:43 -0700, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:48:34 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the
US,
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a
lot
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it
bears
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
a local store brand.
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that
format
Post by Richard Yates
what do MA or JU mean?
I'd guess they're the ones that aren't marked as MR or JL.
I.e., MY and JN. Two-letter month abbreviations are pretty standard.
--
Sam Plusnet
Sam Plusnet
2018-08-05 21:54:54 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
On Sun, 05 Aug 2018 12:12:43 -0700, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:48:34 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the
US,
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a
lot
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it
bears
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
a local store brand.
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that
format
Post by Richard Yates
what do MA or JU mean?
I'd guess they're the ones that aren't marked as MR or JL.
I.e., MY and JN. Two-letter month abbreviations are pretty standard.
"The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from. "
--
Sam Plusnet
RHDraney
2018-08-06 00:14:58 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
On Sun, 05 Aug 2018 12:12:43 -0700, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:48:34 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the
US,
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a
lot
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it
bears
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
a local store brand.
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that
format
Post by Richard Yates
what do MA or JU mean?
I'd guess they're the ones that aren't marked as MR or JL.
I.e., MY and JN. Two-letter month abbreviations are pretty standard.
"The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from. "
Standard for month abbreviations is three letters...the competing
standard is that used by the Readers' Guide to Periodical Literature,
which used one letter for some months and two for others....r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-05 21:08:21 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:48:34 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 10:34:37 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
That's not a complaint about the date format. It's a complaint
about>>>> formatting, the lack of spaces.
My point was that better date formats are immune to bad spacing as
well. It's quite positive that they use "AUG" instead of another number
that could be confused, but then they ruin it again by putting both
numbers on the same side (and shortening the year).
23MAY19 would still be somewhat ambiguous, 23MAY2019 not at all.
MAY232019 would still be hard to read.
Isn't there a common sense aspect to this? You haven't stated what
type of product is involved. If it's a container of milk, common
sense tells you that the month and day of the expiration date are the
vital numbers. If it's a container of spice, the year becomes a bit
more vital.
The product is "Craisins" (dried cranberries.)>
It isn't legal here to sell milk imported from the US to consumers.
Probably not even milk imported from Ontario.
(Last week, on a Montreal radio station: "We have a caller from
Hamilton, Alberta!" - "Thank you! We love our international audience!")
Post by Tony Cooper
By the way...why is this a "US date format" issue? If you are in
Canada, and the product was made/packaged/labeled in Canada, isn't the
company that made/packaged/labeled the product the party in remiss?
I guess either it's acceptable as a date format on imported products,
or the "proper Canadian" labeling isn't enforced in this respect.>
I don't think I've ever seen it on made in Canada products, though,
spaces aside. From memory, I'd say they always have the month in the
middle, and they usually use a two-letter abbreviation for the month
which covers English and French at the same time. There is, however,
variation in whether the year or the day comes first, and there are
products with two-letter years, so sometimes it is ambiguous.
Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the US,
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a lot
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it bears
a local store brand.
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that format
what do MA or JU mean?
Apple had that problem when they first brought out a French version of
their operating system: they had two months called jui.
--
athel
RHDraney
2018-08-06 00:17:31 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Richard Yates
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that format
what do MA or JU mean?
Apple had that problem when they first brought out a French version of
their operating system: they had two months called jui.
I once owned a calendar watch with windows showing things like
MAR-14...took me a week or so to realize that it had somehow got
switched into Spanish mode, and that it wasn't showing me "March the
14th" but "Tuesday the 14th"....r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-06 08:46:03 UTC
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Post by RHDraney
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Richard Yates
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that format
what do MA or JU mean?
Apple had that problem when they first brought out a French version of
their operating system: they had two months called jui.
I once owned a calendar watch with windows showing things like
MAR-14...took me a week or so to realize that it had somehow got
switched into Spanish mode, and that it wasn't showing me "March the
14th" but "Tuesday the 14th"....r
Just be grateful it didn't switch to Catalan, in which every day of the
week begins with DI: dilluns dimarts dimecres dijous divendres dissabte
diumenge.
--
athel
Ken Blake
2018-08-06 15:39:28 UTC
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On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 10:46:03 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RHDraney
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Richard Yates
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that format
what do MA or JU mean?
Apple had that problem when they first brought out a French version of
their operating system: they had two months called jui.
I once owned a calendar watch with windows showing things like
MAR-14...took me a week or so to realize that it had somehow got
switched into Spanish mode, and that it wasn't showing me "March the
14th" but "Tuesday the 14th"....r
Just be grateful it didn't switch to Catalan, in which every day of the
week begins with DI: dilluns dimarts dimecres dijous divendres dissabte
diumenge.
I know nothing about Catalan. Does "di" mean "day"? Take the "di" off
and I can understand all the days except "diumenge." It's obviously
Sunday, but what does "umenge" mean?
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-06 15:48:37 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 10:46:03 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
...
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RHDraney
I once owned a calendar watch with windows showing things like
MAR-14...took me a week or so to realize that it had somehow got
switched into Spanish mode, and that it wasn't showing me "March the
14th" but "Tuesday the 14th"....r
Just be grateful it didn't switch to Catalan, in which every day of the
week begins with DI: dilluns dimarts dimecres dijous divendres dissabte
diumenge.
I know nothing about Catalan. Does "di" mean "day"? Take the "di" off
and I can understand all the days except "diumenge." It's obviously
Sunday, but what does "umenge" mean?
It looks as if it comes from Latin "dies dominica", the Lord's day, like
French "dimanche", and apparently it does.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diumenge
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-06 17:28:46 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 10:46:03 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RHDraney
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Richard Yates
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that format
what do MA or JU mean?
Apple had that problem when they first brought out a French version of
their operating system: they had two months called jui.
I once owned a calendar watch with windows showing things like
MAR-14...took me a week or so to realize that it had somehow got
switched into Spanish mode, and that it wasn't showing me "March the
14th" but "Tuesday the 14th"....r
Just be grateful it didn't switch to Catalan, in which every day of the
week begins with DI: dilluns dimarts dimecres dijous divendres dissabte
diumenge.
I know nothing about Catalan. Does "di" mean "day"? Take the "di" off
and I can understand all the days except "diumenge." It's obviously
Sunday, but what does "umenge" mean?
According to Google Translate it mean Sunday all by itself, but the usual
word is diumenge; it is the Catalan equivalent of Castilian domingo,
the Lord's Day.
--
athel
Ken Blake
2018-08-06 19:38:19 UTC
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On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 19:28:46 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 10:46:03 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RHDraney
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Richard Yates
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that format
what do MA or JU mean?
Apple had that problem when they first brought out a French version of
their operating system: they had two months called jui.
I once owned a calendar watch with windows showing things like
MAR-14...took me a week or so to realize that it had somehow got
switched into Spanish mode, and that it wasn't showing me "March the
14th" but "Tuesday the 14th"....r
Just be grateful it didn't switch to Catalan, in which every day of the
week begins with DI: dilluns dimarts dimecres dijous divendres dissabte
diumenge.
I know nothing about Catalan. Does "di" mean "day"? Take the "di" off
and I can understand all the days except "diumenge." It's obviously
Sunday, but what does "umenge" mean?
According to Google Translate it mean Sunday all by itself, but the usual
word is diumenge; it is the Catalan equivalent of Castilian domingo,
the Lord's Day.
Or the Italian "domenica." Yes, I should have seen that. Thanks.
Quinn C
2018-08-06 00:27:28 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
Post by Quinn C
Checking, two other bags I bought the same day, both made in the US,
are labeled "250918" and "2019 OC 03", respectively. So there is a lot
of variation. The last one was clearly packaged for Canada, as it bears
a local store brand.
I assume that OC is an abbreviation for October, but with that format
what do MA or JU mean?
JN and JL are clear. To understand MA, you need to know that there's
MR. MA is the only possible shorthand that covers both May and Mai.
April/Avril is AL.
--
"Bother", said the Borg, as they assimilated Pooh.
Quinn C
2018-08-06 01:51:10 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
By the way...why is this a "US date format" issue? If you are in
Canada, and the product was made/packaged/labeled in Canada, isn't the
company that made/packaged/labeled the product the party in remiss?
I guess either it's acceptable as a date format on imported products,
or the "proper Canadian" labeling isn't enforced in this respect.
I don't think I've ever seen it on made in Canada products, though,
spaces aside.
OK, I have to take this back. I couldn't resist checking a few more
examples today, and quickly found a Canadian company using exactly the
format and formatting that I complained about: Voortman Cookies.
--
The bee must not pass judgment on the hive. (Voxish proverb)
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.125
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 03:00:40 UTC
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On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 9:50:57 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:

[whatever format was complained about had already been deleted]
Post by Quinn C
OK, I have to take this back. I couldn't resist checking a few more
examples today, and quickly found a Canadian company using exactly the
format and formatting that I complained about: Voortman Cookies.
Canadian? It's the brand of sugar-free cookies in all the supermarkets
around here. (They also do regular cookies.)
bill van
2018-08-06 06:06:11 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
By the way...why is this a "US date format" issue? If you are in
Canada, and the product was made/packaged/labeled in Canada, isn't the
company that made/packaged/labeled the product the party in remiss?
I guess either it's acceptable as a date format on imported products,
or the "proper Canadian" labeling isn't enforced in this respect.
I don't think I've ever seen it on made in Canada products, though,
spaces aside.
OK, I have to take this back. I couldn't resist checking a few more
examples today, and quickly found a Canadian company using exactly the
format and formatting that I complained about: Voortman Cookies.
On the plus side, Voortman is a major maker of speculaas cookies, a
Dutch variation on gingerbread.

bill
occam
2018-08-05 15:50:55 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
Mmm..., don't you just love those genetically modified tomatoes? Made to
last.
John Varela
2018-08-06 22:00:01 UTC
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On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 21:42:28 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
What's your problem? The statement is true whichever way you read
it.
--
John Varela
Quinn C
2018-08-06 22:37:46 UTC
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Post by John Varela
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 21:42:28 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
What's your problem? The statement is true whichever way you read
it.
No, not in the specific meaning of "Best before" used on food packages.

But you knew that.
--
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is
to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies.
And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.
-- C. A. R. Hoare
Will Parsons
2018-08-07 01:24:02 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Best before: MAY2319
I suspect that this takes some effort to decypher was considered an
advantage by the manufacturer.
--
Will
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