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Queer
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Mack A. Damia
2018-08-23 02:49:28 UTC
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"Queer"

We have a transsexual in our family. Nichole became Nick, my
step-sister's son, who lives in England. I have never met him, but my
sister in Pennsylvania knows him well.

He is thinking of coming to the U.S. to study. He visited earlier
this year and spent some time at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, PA.

This article appeared in NPR today, and I sent it to my sister. We
fear that he will face a lot of problems for the rest of his life:

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/22/606018920/know-an-lgbtq-student-itching-to-study-abroad-here-are-some-things-to-think-abou

What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.

But the word as originally applied to homosexuals means "odd,
strange".

Is this revival of the word part of the New Century Syndrome?
Andy Leighton
2018-08-23 09:05:01 UTC
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On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.

It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
_Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
especially the young embrace it.

It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
just gay / straight.

--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams
Mack A. Damia
2018-08-23 14:17:50 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 04:05:01 -0500, Andy Leighton
<***@azaal.plus.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
>
>It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
>_Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
>reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
>especially the young embrace it.

That came from a Northern English expression, "There's nowt as queer
as folk". It has little to do with sexual orientation.

>It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
>just gay / straight.

I believe you, but I consider it a slur and an insult.
Tony Cooper
2018-08-23 16:04:12 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 07:17:50 -0700, Mack A. Damia
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 04:05:01 -0500, Andy Leighton
><***@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
>>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
>>
>>It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
>>_Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
>>reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
>>especially the young embrace it.
>
>That came from a Northern English expression, "There's nowt as queer
>as folk". It has little to do with sexual orientation.
>
>>It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
>>just gay / straight.
>
>I believe you, but I consider it a slur and an insult.

I consider it a too-dangerous word to use. We have someone in this
group who thinks that we should find out what gender pronoun to use
when addressing him, and he represents a very tiny group of
like-minded people.

Homosexuals are a much larger group, so we have more occasion to
consider their feelings. There may be homosexuals who would not
object to being called "queer", but I'm not about to use the term on
the chance that I'm using it where it is acceptable. Odds are it will
not be.

Looking at the above, I'm trying to determine if "group" will be
objected to by someone, but it's easier to write than "percentage of
the population we encounter".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
bill van
2018-08-23 17:19:15 UTC
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On 2018-08-23 16:04:12 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 07:17:50 -0700, Mack A. Damia
> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 04:05:01 -0500, Andy Leighton
>> <***@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia
>>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
>>>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
>>>
>>> It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
>>> _Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
>>> reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
>>> especially the young embrace it.
>>
>> That came from a Northern English expression, "There's nowt as queer
>> as folk". It has little to do with sexual orientation.
>>
>>> It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
>>> just gay / straight.
>>
>> I believe you, but I consider it a slur and an insult.

That depends on who is using it and how. It is one of those words that
began as a slur but was embraced by the community it referred to, and
is now a regularly used, non-insulting expression when used by members
of the community and those who interact with them.
>
> I consider it a too-dangerous word to use. We have someone in this
> group who thinks that we should find out what gender pronoun to use
> when addressing him, and he represents a very tiny group of
> like-minded people.
>
> Homosexuals are a much larger group, so we have more occasion to
> consider their feelings. There may be homosexuals who would not
> object to being called "queer", but I'm not about to use the term on
> the chance that I'm using it where it is acceptable. Odds are it will
> not be.

If you interact with gay people it will soon become clear whether you
can safely use it. Just asking someone might tell you. If you don't,
there's no harm in avoiding the term.
>
> Looking at the above, I'm trying to determine if "group" will be
> objected to by someone, but it's easier to write than "percentage of
> the population we encounter".

I live in Vancouver's West End, part of which is known as "the gay
village". Vancouver is generally accepting of gender minorities; the
annual Pride Parade, which winds through my neighbourhood, draws around
600,000 spectators from all backgrounds.

In public discussions on the subject of gender/sexual preference, we
often hear the initials LGBTQ, standing for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual,
Transgender and Questioning. Those initials, with some variations, have
been around for 20 years or so, but are increasingly part of public
conversations and have made their way into political discourse and the
media.

bill
Tony Cooper
2018-08-23 19:47:03 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 10:19:15 -0700, bill van <***@shaw.ca> wrote:

>On 2018-08-23 16:04:12 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 07:17:50 -0700, Mack A. Damia
>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 04:05:01 -0500, Andy Leighton
>>> <***@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia
>>>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
>>>>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
>>>>
>>>> It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
>>>> _Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
>>>> reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
>>>> especially the young embrace it.
>>>
>>> That came from a Northern English expression, "There's nowt as queer
>>> as folk". It has little to do with sexual orientation.
>>>
>>>> It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
>>>> just gay / straight.
>>>
>>> I believe you, but I consider it a slur and an insult.
>
>That depends on who is using it and how. It is one of those words that
>began as a slur but was embraced by the community it referred to, and
>is now a regularly used, non-insulting expression when used by members
>of the community and those who interact with them.
>>
>> I consider it a too-dangerous word to use. We have someone in this
>> group who thinks that we should find out what gender pronoun to use
>> when addressing him, and he represents a very tiny group of
>> like-minded people.
>>
>> Homosexuals are a much larger group, so we have more occasion to
>> consider their feelings. There may be homosexuals who would not
>> object to being called "queer", but I'm not about to use the term on
>> the chance that I'm using it where it is acceptable. Odds are it will
>> not be.
>
>If you interact with gay people it will soon become clear whether you
>can safely use it. Just asking someone might tell you. If you don't,
>there's no harm in avoiding the term.

Well, not really. If you interact with *a* gay person you will get to
know what that person finds offensive or inoffensive, but you have to
start over with each individual no matter how many you interact with.

I can't imagine that "Just asking someone" if using "queer" is
acceptable to them. I think I'd be more apt to let them set the tone
and use whatever term they use, or no term at all. Mostly it's no
term at all because the subject need not be clarified.

>> Looking at the above, I'm trying to determine if "group" will be
>> objected to by someone, but it's easier to write than "percentage of
>> the population we encounter".
>
>I live in Vancouver's West End, part of which is known as "the gay
>village". Vancouver is generally accepting of gender minorities; the
>annual Pride Parade, which winds through my neighbourhood, draws around
>600,000 spectators from all backgrounds.

We have "Rainbow Run" in Orlando. There's a stretch of stores and
drinking/eating establishments on a major street that all display a
rainbow flag or rainbow painted on the building. I don't think
there's an area that is specifically known for gay residents.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2018-08-23 18:09:40 UTC
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* Andy Leighton:

> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
>
> It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
> _Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
> reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
> especially the young embrace it.
>
> It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
> just gay / straight.

Recently, it's often used as an umbrella term for all of the letters in
your favorite acronym, or for identities which don't neatly fit into
any one of the letters. Not just because it's handy, but also to
express the commonality of the various subcommunities.

A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.

I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.

--
... their average size remains so much smaller; so that the sum
total of food converted into thought by women can never equal
[that of] men. It follows therefore, that men will always think
more than women. -- M.A. Hardaker in Popular Science (1881)
Mack A. Damia
2018-08-23 19:28:55 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
<***@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Andy Leighton:
>
>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
>>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
>>
>> It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
>> _Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
>> reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
>> especially the young embrace it.
>>
>> It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
>> just gay / straight.
>
>Recently, it's often used as an umbrella term for all of the letters in
>your favorite acronym, or for identities which don't neatly fit into
>any one of the letters. Not just because it's handy, but also to
>express the commonality of the various subcommunities.
>
>A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
>often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
>than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
>
>I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
>used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
>It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
>However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
>others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.

But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
merely odd and strange? Is the word still used to describe the latter
state of being?

Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
word.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-23 19:53:57 UTC
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On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:29:11 PM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
> <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> >A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
> >often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
> >than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
> >
> >I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
> >used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
> >It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
> >However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
> >others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.
>
> But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
> merely odd and strange? Is the word still used to describe the latter
> state of being?
>
> Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
> word.

No one does. M-W has [origin unknown] (1508)
Ross
2018-08-23 20:12:20 UTC
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On Friday, August 24, 2018 at 7:53:59 AM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:29:11 PM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
> > <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
> > >A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
> > >often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
> > >than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
> > >
> > >I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
> > >used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
> > >It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
> > >However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
> > >others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.
> >
> > But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
> > merely odd and strange? Is the word still used to describe the latter
> > state of being?
> >
> > Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
> > word.
>
> No one does. M-W has [origin unknown] (1508)

OED suggests (without much conviction) a connection with German quer
'crosswise'.

They have attestations of the 'homosexual' sense from 1914.

This entry was updated in 2007, so there is an extended note
on recent usage:

"Although originally chiefly derogatory (and still widely considered
offensive, esp. when used by heterosexual people), from the late 1980s
it began to be used as a neutral or positive term (originally of
self-reference, by some homosexuals; cf. Queer Nation n. ...) in place
of gay or homosexual, without regard to, or in implicit denial of, its
negative connotations. In some academic contexts it is the preferred
adjective in the study of issues relating to homosexuality
(cf. queer theory n. at Special uses 2); it is also sometimes used of
sexual lifestyles that do not conform to conventional heterosexual
behaviour, such as bisexuality or transgenderism."

Late 1980s agrees with my recollection of when I first noticed the
rehabilitation.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-23 20:32:59 UTC
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On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 4:12:22 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> On Friday, August 24, 2018 at 7:53:59 AM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:29:11 PM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
> > > <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >
> > > >A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
> > > >often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
> > > >than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
> > > >
> > > >I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
> > > >used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
> > > >It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
> > > >However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
> > > >others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.
> > >
> > > But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
> > > merely odd and strange? Is the word still used to describe the latter
> > > state of being?
> > >
> > > Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
> > > word.
> >
> > No one does. M-W has [origin unknown] (1508)
>
> OED suggests (without much conviction) a connection with German quer
> 'crosswise'.
>
> They have attestations of the 'homosexual' sense from 1914.
>
> This entry was updated in 2007, so there is an extended note
> on recent usage:
>
> "Although originally chiefly derogatory (and still widely considered
> offensive, esp. when used by heterosexual people), from the late 1980s
> it began to be used as a neutral or positive term (originally of
> self-reference, by some homosexuals; cf. Queer Nation n. ...) in place
> of gay or homosexual, without regard to, or in implicit denial of, its
> negative connotations. In some academic contexts it is the preferred
> adjective in the study of issues relating to homosexuality
> (cf. queer theory n. at Special uses 2); it is also sometimes used of
> sexual lifestyles that do not conform to conventional heterosexual
> behaviour, such as bisexuality or transgenderism."
>
> Late 1980s agrees with my recollection of when I first noticed the
> rehabilitation.

I wonder whether a few years hence all the Queer Studies departments will
be arguing, as the Linguistics departments are now, over which one was
the first. (And can you date your founding from when there was a Program,
or only when it becomes an actual Department?)
Mack A. Damia
2018-08-23 22:01:32 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ross <***@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>On Friday, August 24, 2018 at 7:53:59 AM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:29:11 PM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> > On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
>> > <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>> > >A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
>> > >often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
>> > >than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
>> > >
>> > >I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
>> > >used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
>> > >It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
>> > >However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
>> > >others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.
>> >
>> > But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
>> > merely odd and strange? Is the word still used to describe the latter
>> > state of being?
>> >
>> > Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
>> > word.
>>
>> No one does. M-W has [origin unknown] (1508)
>
>OED suggests (without much conviction) a connection with German quer
>'crosswise'.
>
>They have attestations of the 'homosexual' sense from 1914.
>
>This entry was updated in 2007, so there is an extended note
>on recent usage:
>
>"Although originally chiefly derogatory (and still widely considered
>offensive, esp. when used by heterosexual people), from the late 1980s
>it began to be used as a neutral or positive term (originally of
>self-reference, by some homosexuals; cf. Queer Nation n. ...) in place
>of gay or homosexual, without regard to, or in implicit denial of, its
>negative connotations. In some academic contexts it is the preferred
>adjective in the study of issues relating to homosexuality
>(cf. queer theory n. at Special uses 2); it is also sometimes used of
>sexual lifestyles that do not conform to conventional heterosexual
>behaviour, such as bisexuality or transgenderism."
>
>Late 1980s agrees with my recollection of when I first noticed the
>rehabilitation.

Right, but my point was that the word did not originally refer to
homosexuals as in the Northern English expression, "There's nowt as
queer as folk" (pronounced "foowak").

I recall using the word as a child in Lancashire; it was a fairly
common word and had nothing to do with homosexuals of which I knew
nowt.

We knew it meant, "odd", "strange".
Ross
2018-08-23 23:37:48 UTC
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On Friday, August 24, 2018 at 10:01:46 AM UTC+12, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ross <***@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, August 24, 2018 at 7:53:59 AM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:29:11 PM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
> >> > <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >>
> >> > >A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
> >> > >often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
> >> > >than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
> >> > >
> >> > >I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
> >> > >used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
> >> > >It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
> >> > >However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
> >> > >others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.
> >> >
> >> > But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
> >> > merely odd and strange? Is the word still used to describe the latter
> >> > state of being?
> >> >
> >> > Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
> >> > word.
> >>
> >> No one does. M-W has [origin unknown] (1508)
> >
> >OED suggests (without much conviction) a connection with German quer
> >'crosswise'.
> >
> >They have attestations of the 'homosexual' sense from 1914.
> >
> >This entry was updated in 2007, so there is an extended note
> >on recent usage:
> >
> >"Although originally chiefly derogatory (and still widely considered
> >offensive, esp. when used by heterosexual people), from the late 1980s
> >it began to be used as a neutral or positive term (originally of
> >self-reference, by some homosexuals; cf. Queer Nation n. ...) in place
> >of gay or homosexual, without regard to, or in implicit denial of, its
> >negative connotations. In some academic contexts it is the preferred
> >adjective in the study of issues relating to homosexuality
> >(cf. queer theory n. at Special uses 2); it is also sometimes used of
> >sexual lifestyles that do not conform to conventional heterosexual
> >behaviour, such as bisexuality or transgenderism."
> >
> >Late 1980s agrees with my recollection of when I first noticed the
> >rehabilitation.
>
> Right, but my point was that the word did not originally refer to
> homosexuals as in the Northern English expression, "There's nowt as
> queer as folk" (pronounced "foowak").

Right. The "odd" sense goes back to the 1500s.

>
> I recall using the word as a child in Lancashire; it was a fairly
> common word and had nothing to do with homosexuals of which I knew
> nowt.
>
> We knew it meant, "odd", "strange".

Yes, I recall a childhood use too, which for me had no sexual implications.
But that was because, like you, I knew nowt of such things. As I
mentioned in citing OED, the 'homosexual' sense has been around for
at least a century. It was used where I grew up, as I learned when
I got a bit older; and I'd be surprised if it wasn't known in Lancashire
during your childhood.
Quinn C
2018-08-23 22:57:17 UTC
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* Ross:

> This [OED] entry was updated in 2007, so there is an extended note
> on recent usage:
>
> "Although originally chiefly derogatory (and still widely considered
> offensive, esp. when used by heterosexual people), from the late 1980s
> it began to be used as a neutral or positive term (originally of
> self-reference, by some homosexuals; cf. Queer Nation n. ...) in place
> of gay or homosexual, without regard to, or in implicit denial of, its
> negative connotations. In some academic contexts it is the preferred
> adjective in the study of issues relating to homosexuality
> (cf. queer theory n. at Special uses 2); it is also sometimes used of
> sexual lifestyles that do not conform to conventional heterosexual
> behaviour, such as bisexuality or transgenderism."

I wasn't really in the loop in 2007, but what I've read a few years
later suggests anyone who was knew that "queer" didn't usually refer
only to homosexuality any more, not only as a special exception. In
2018, the "special use" has become the default.

And anyone who's ever looked into transgenderism, even decades earlier,
knows that it's not a "sexual lifestyle".

--
ASCII to ASCII, DOS to DOS
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-23 20:31:46 UTC
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On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 1:29:11 PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
> <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
> >* Andy Leighton:
> >
> >> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
> >>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
> >>
> >> It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
> >> _Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
> >> reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
> >> especially the young embrace it.
> >>
> >> It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
> >> just gay / straight.
> >
> >Recently, it's often used as an umbrella term for all of the letters in
> >your favorite acronym, or for identities which don't neatly fit into
> >any one of the letters. Not just because it's handy, but also to
> >express the commonality of the various subcommunities.
> >
> >A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
> >often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
> >than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
> >
> >I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
> >used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
> >It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
> >However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
> >others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.
>
> But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
> merely odd and strange?

Gay (not necessarily light-hearted). I would not recommend describing
anyone as queer in the non-sexual meaning unless you're sure of your
audience.

> Is the word still used to describe the latter
> state of being?

I don't think I've heard it in that sense for ten years, maybe twenty.

> Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
> word.

I'm sure most of them do and are quite aware that it used to be an
insult. The movement to reclaim it, starting in the late '80s as
people said, was deliberate.

--
Jerry Friedman
Mack A. Damia
2018-08-23 22:06:54 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:31:46 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 1:29:11 PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
>> <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>> >* Andy Leighton:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
>> >>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
>> >>
>> >> It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
>> >> _Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
>> >> reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
>> >> especially the young embrace it.
>> >>
>> >> It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
>> >> just gay / straight.
>> >
>> >Recently, it's often used as an umbrella term for all of the letters in
>> >your favorite acronym, or for identities which don't neatly fit into
>> >any one of the letters. Not just because it's handy, but also to
>> >express the commonality of the various subcommunities.
>> >
>> >A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
>> >often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
>> >than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
>> >
>> >I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
>> >used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
>> >It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
>> >However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
>> >others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.
>>
>> But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
>> merely odd and strange?
>
>Gay (not necessarily light-hearted). I would not recommend describing
>anyone as queer in the non-sexual meaning unless you're sure of your
>audience.
>
>> Is the word still used to describe the latter
>> state of being?
>
>I don't think I've heard it in that sense for ten years, maybe twenty.
>
>> Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
>> word.
>
>I'm sure most of them do and are quite aware that it used to be an
>insult. The movement to reclaim it, starting in the late '80s as
>people said, was deliberate.

Queer as gay? Indeed, but again, I am referring to the original
definition of "queer".

I am fairly certain that most gays know that the word was a derogatory
term for them; perhaps that is the reason they have embraced the word,
but I doubt that they know the original etymology, re: Odd, strange.
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-23 22:17:19 UTC
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On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 4:07:09 PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:31:46 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 1:29:11 PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
> >> <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >>
> >> >* Andy Leighton:
> >> >
> >> >> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
> >> >>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
> >> >>
> >> >> It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
> >> >> _Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
> >> >> reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
> >> >> especially the young embrace it.
> >> >>
> >> >> It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
> >> >> just gay / straight.
> >> >
> >> >Recently, it's often used as an umbrella term for all of the letters in
> >> >your favorite acronym, or for identities which don't neatly fit into
> >> >any one of the letters. Not just because it's handy, but also to
> >> >express the commonality of the various subcommunities.
> >> >
> >> >A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
> >> >often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
> >> >than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
> >> >
> >> >I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
> >> >used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
> >> >It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
> >> >However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
> >> >others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.
> >>
> >> But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
> >> merely odd and strange?
> >
> >Gay (not necessarily light-hearted). I would not recommend describing
> >anyone as queer in the non-sexual meaning unless you're sure of your
> >audience.
> >
> >> Is the word still used to describe the latter
> >> state of being?
> >
> >I don't think I've heard it in that sense for ten years, maybe twenty.
> >
> >> Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
> >> word.
> >
> >I'm sure most of them do and are quite aware that it used to be an
> >insult. The movement to reclaim it, starting in the late '80s as
> >people said, was deliberate.
>
> Queer as gay? Indeed, but again, I am referring to the original
> definition of "queer".
>
> I am fairly certain that most gays know that the word was a derogatory
> term for them; perhaps that is the reason they have embraced the word,
> but I doubt that they know the original etymology, re: Odd, strange.

I'm sure almost all of them do know that it meant odd or strange.

--
Jerry Friedman
Mack A. Damia
2018-08-23 22:31:10 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 15:17:19 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 4:07:09 PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:31:46 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 1:29:11 PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
>> >> <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >* Andy Leighton:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
>> >> >>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
>> >> >> _Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
>> >> >> reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
>> >> >> especially the young embrace it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
>> >> >> just gay / straight.
>> >> >
>> >> >Recently, it's often used as an umbrella term for all of the letters in
>> >> >your favorite acronym, or for identities which don't neatly fit into
>> >> >any one of the letters. Not just because it's handy, but also to
>> >> >express the commonality of the various subcommunities.
>> >> >
>> >> >A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
>> >> >often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
>> >> >than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
>> >> >
>> >> >I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
>> >> >used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
>> >> >It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
>> >> >However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
>> >> >others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.
>> >>
>> >> But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
>> >> merely odd and strange?
>> >
>> >Gay (not necessarily light-hearted). I would not recommend describing
>> >anyone as queer in the non-sexual meaning unless you're sure of your
>> >audience.
>> >
>> >> Is the word still used to describe the latter
>> >> state of being?
>> >
>> >I don't think I've heard it in that sense for ten years, maybe twenty.
>> >
>> >> Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
>> >> word.
>> >
>> >I'm sure most of them do and are quite aware that it used to be an
>> >insult. The movement to reclaim it, starting in the late '80s as
>> >people said, was deliberate.
>>
>> Queer as gay? Indeed, but again, I am referring to the original
>> definition of "queer".
>>
>> I am fairly certain that most gays know that the word was a derogatory
>> term for them; perhaps that is the reason they have embraced the word,
>> but I doubt that they know the original etymology, re: Odd, strange.
>
>I'm sure almost all of them do know that it meant odd or strange.

I don't think so, at least not younger folks.

I could do a survey in San Diego.......
Quinn C
2018-08-23 22:57:18 UTC
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* Mack A. Damia:

> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:09:40 -0400, Quinn C
> <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Andy Leighton:
>>
>>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
>>>> it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
>>>
>>> It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
>>> _Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
>>> reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
>>> especially the young embrace it.
>>>
>>> It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
>>> just gay / straight.
>>
>>Recently, it's often used as an umbrella term for all of the letters in
>>your favorite acronym, or for identities which don't neatly fit into
>>any one of the letters. Not just because it's handy, but also to
>>express the commonality of the various subcommunities.
>>
>>A little earlier, until around 10 years ago, the "new" use of "queer"
>>often had a strong connotation of making a political statement, rather
>>than just a personal one. I don't feel that as much recently.
>>
>>I still meet gay people who don't like it, but I think they've gotten
>>used to it so much that I don't see the need to ask before I use it.
>>It's enough to stop using it around them if they voice their feelings.
>>However, that applies to me as a self-identified queer person; for
>>others, it can't hurt to be a little more circumspect.
>
> But if you refer to a guy as "queer", does it mean that he is gay or
> merely odd and strange? Is the word still used to describe the latter
> state of being?
>
> Methinks the New Century Syndromites don't know the etymology of the
> word.

Well, then they didn't pay attention when their favorite sponge was on:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3e_nEhccdk>

I'd say it can still be used as in "that's queer", but when used for
people, the "odd" meaning is dead.

As I explained, It doesn't mean "gay", though. I'm using "queer" and
"genderqueer" to describe myself, but not "gay".

--
The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable
-- Paul Broca
... who never questioned that men are more intelligent than women
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-23 20:33:02 UTC
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On Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:05:03 AM UTC-6, Andy Leighton wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:49:28 -0700, Mack A Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > What puzzles me is the frequent use of the word, "queer". I thought
> > it was in disuse because of its bad vibes. Apparently not.
>
> It has been reclaimed somewhat, a process that was started in the late 80s.
> _Queer As Folk_ was on TV in the UK in 1999. However it hasn't been totally
> reclaimed there are still LGBTQIA people who reject the term, but many,
> especially the young embrace it.
>
> It is a useful word as it is an umbrella term that covers more than
> just gay / straight.
...

Though I recently saw a roommate-wanted ad from a "queer trans woman",
which I took to mean that she's attracted to women.

--
Jerry Friedman
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