Discussion:
'A historic' or 'an historic' or either?
(too old to reply)
Dingbat
2018-05-12 01:09:04 UTC
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Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic' correct too?

Jerusalem to Tel Aviv: an historic high-speed railway
https://www.railway-technology.com/features/jerusalem-tel-aviv-historic-high-speed-railway/
micky
2018-05-12 01:30:55 UTC
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In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic' correct too?

I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
"an", as in "an interest".

Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but maybe
I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
pretentious.

>Jerusalem to Tel Aviv: an historic high-speed railway
>https://www.railway-technology.com/features/jerusalem-tel-aviv-historic-high-speed-railway/


--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.
RH Draney
2018-05-12 02:32:33 UTC
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On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic' correct too?
>
> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
> "an", as in "an interest".
>
> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but maybe
> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
> pretentious.

The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're correct
to use "a" rather than "an"....r
Ian Jackson
2018-05-12 22:30:29 UTC
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In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
writes
>On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
>>>correct too?
>> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>> "an", as in "an interest".
>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
>>maybe
>> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
>> pretentious.
>
>The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
>unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
>correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r

At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
mean!).
--
Ian
Dingbat
2018-05-12 22:50:32 UTC
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On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 4:00:40 AM UTC+5:30, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
> writes
> >On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
> >> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> >> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
> >>>correct too?
> >> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
> >> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
> >> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
> >> "an", as in "an interest".
> >> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
> >>maybe
> >> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
> >> pretentious.
> >
> >The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
> >unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
> >correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r
>
> At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
> that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
> mean!).
> --

You mean this:
I can't think of any properly pronounced English words that begin with
<h> that don't begin with [h].
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-12 22:55:24 UTC
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On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
> writes
> >On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
> >> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> >> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
> >>>correct too?
> >> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
> >> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
> >> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
> >> "an", as in "an interest".
> >> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
> >>maybe
> >> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
> >> pretentious.
> >
> >The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
> >unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
> >correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r
>
> At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
> that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
> mean!).
> --

Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!
Dingbat
2018-05-12 23:05:03 UTC
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On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 4:25:27 AM UTC+5:30, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
> > writes
> > >On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
> > >> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> > >> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
> > >>>correct too?
> > >> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
> > >> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
> > >> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
> > >> "an", as in "an interest".
> > >> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
> > >>maybe
> > >> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
> > >> pretentious.
> > >
> > >The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
> > >unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
> > >correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r
> >
> > At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
> > that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
> > mean!).
> > --
>
> Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!

It's 'an honor', never 'a honor' Also 'an hour'.
Ian Jackson
2018-05-12 23:17:53 UTC
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In message <9ec9ae4f-ca38-48e1-8f4c-***@googlegroups.com>,
Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> writes
>On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 4:25:27 AM UTC+5:30, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
>> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> > In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
>> > writes
>> > >On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
>> > >> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>> > >> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
>> > >>>correct too?
>> > >> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>> > >> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
>> > >> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>> > >> "an", as in "an interest".
>> > >> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
>> > >>maybe
>> > >> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
>> > >> pretentious.
>> > >
>> > >The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
>> > >unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
>> > >correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r
>> >
>> > At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
>> > that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
>> > mean!).
>> > --
>>
>> Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!
>
>It's 'an honor', never 'a honor' Also 'an hour'.

Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
--
Ian
Dingbat
2018-05-12 23:24:20 UTC
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On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 4:48:01 AM UTC+5:30, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <9ec9ae4f-ca38-48e1-8f4c-***@googlegroups.com>,
> Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> writes
> >On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 4:25:27 AM UTC+5:30, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> >> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >> > In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
> >> > writes
> >> > >On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
> >> > >> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> >> > >> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
> >> > >>>correct too?
> >> > >> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
> >> > >> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
> >> > >> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
> >> > >> "an", as in "an interest".
> >> > >> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
> >> > >>maybe
> >> > >> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
> >> > >> pretentious.
> >> > >
> >> > >The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
> >> > >unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
> >> > >correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r
> >> >
> >> > At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
> >> > that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
> >> > mean!).
> >> > --
> >>
> >> Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!
> >
> >It's 'an honor', never 'a honor' Also 'an hour'.
>
> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
> --

No apologies required. You did introduce the caveat that you couldn't think
of such a word "at this moment".
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-12 23:27:34 UTC
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On Sunday, 13 May 2018 00:18:01 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <9ec9ae4f-ca38-48e1-8f4c-***@googlegroups.com>,
> Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> writes
> >On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 4:25:27 AM UTC+5:30, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> >> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >> > In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
> >> > writes
> >> > >On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
> >> > >> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> >> > >> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
> >> > >>>correct too?
> >> > >> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
> >> > >> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
> >> > >> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
> >> > >> "an", as in "an interest".
> >> > >> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
> >> > >>maybe
> >> > >> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
> >> > >> pretentious.
> >> > >
> >> > >The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
> >> > >unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
> >> > >correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r
> >> >
> >> > At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
> >> > that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
> >> > mean!).
> >> > --
> >>
> >> Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!
> >
> >It's 'an honor', never 'a honor' Also 'an hour'.
>
> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
> --

That's no excuse. I watched it too! Every weird and wonderful minute
of it!
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 23:56:56 UTC
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On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
<***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:

>Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!

On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
just amateur hour with smoke machines.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 02:33:44 UTC
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On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 7:56:58 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
> just amateur hour with smoke machines.

Simon Cowell came back to *America's Got Talent*, so I finally stopped
watching it. (All those song competitions had already siphoned off almost
all the singers.) There's not one American judge on the team any more.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-05-13 14:45:01 UTC
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On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>
> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
> just amateur hour with smoke machines.

Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your country for?

--
Q: What's the difference between an Irish funeral and an Irish wedding?
A: One less drunk.
Lewis
2018-05-13 22:43:47 UTC
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In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
>> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>>
>> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
>> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
>> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
>> just amateur hour with smoke machines.

> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
> country for?

I don't think I would like Simon Cowell if I knew him personally, but I
very much like him (most of the time) as a judge on these shows.

He is nothing like Morgan who is a vile cunt 100% of the time and I am
very glad BGT is well shot of him as I detested even seeing him on
screen.

The current lineup of judges on BGT is just about perfect for me. David
is a goof and silly and loveable, Alesha is great with musical or dance
acts, Amanda *wants* to like everyone, and Simon is the best judge of
actual talent.

I mean, David loves some acts that are just terrible, but that's sort of
his thing. He's not a cunt whilst doing it.

But if I were a singer on that stage, the only opinions I'd care about
would be Ms Dixon and Mr Cowell. If I were a comedian, David (I don't
know how to spell his not-williams last name) and Amanda.

And whatever you think about Simon Cowell, at least he does seem to have
the ability to laugh at himself.

--
So here's us, on the raggedy edge. Don't push me. And I won't push you.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-05-13 22:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 23:43:47 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
>>> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>>>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>>>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>>>
>>> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
>>> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
>>> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
>>> just amateur hour with smoke machines.
>
>> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
>> country for?
>
> I don't think I would like Simon Cowell if I knew him personally, but I
> very much like him (most of the time) as a judge on these shows.
>
> He is nothing like Morgan who is a vile cunt 100% of the time and I am
> very glad BGT is well shot of him as I detested even seeing him on
> screen.
>
> The current lineup of judges on BGT is just about perfect for me. David
> is a goof and silly and loveable, Alesha is great with musical or dance
> acts, Amanda *wants* to like everyone, and Simon is the best judge of
> actual talent.
>
> I mean, David loves some acts that are just terrible, but that's sort of
> his thing. He's not a cunt whilst doing it.
>
> But if I were a singer on that stage, the only opinions I'd care about
> would be Ms Dixon and Mr Cowell. If I were a comedian, David (I don't
> know how to spell his not-williams last name) and Amanda.
>
> And whatever you think about Simon Cowell, at least he does seem to have
> the ability to laugh at himself.

I've never watched the American version, so I don't know what the other judges are like, but when he was in the UK, he was the arsehole who hated almost every contestant, usually 10 seconds into the act before they'd even had a chance to get going.

--
The Post Office just recalled their latest stamps. They had pictures
of lawyers on them, and people couldn't figure out which side to spit
on.
Lewis
2018-05-14 12:35:41 UTC
Permalink
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In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 May 2018 23:43:47 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
>>>> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>>>>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>>>>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>>>>
>>>> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
>>>> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
>>>> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
>>>> just amateur hour with smoke machines.
>>
>>> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
>>> country for?
>>
>> I don't think I would like Simon Cowell if I knew him personally, but I
>> very much like him (most of the time) as a judge on these shows.
>>
>> He is nothing like Morgan who is a vile cunt 100% of the time and I am
>> very glad BGT is well shot of him as I detested even seeing him on
>> screen.
>>
>> The current lineup of judges on BGT is just about perfect for me. David
>> is a goof and silly and loveable, Alesha is great with musical or dance
>> acts, Amanda *wants* to like everyone, and Simon is the best judge of
>> actual talent.
>>
>> I mean, David loves some acts that are just terrible, but that's sort of
>> his thing. He's not a cunt whilst doing it.
>>
>> But if I were a singer on that stage, the only opinions I'd care about
>> would be Ms Dixon and Mr Cowell. If I were a comedian, David (I don't
>> know how to spell his not-williams last name) and Amanda.
>>
>> And whatever you think about Simon Cowell, at least he does seem to have
>> the ability to laugh at himself.

> I've never watched the American version, so I don't know what the
> other judges are like, but when he was in the UK, he was the arsehole
> who hated almost every contestant, usually 10 seconds into the act
> before they'd even had a chance to get going.

I am talking about the panel on BGT and made no mention of any American
show.

And it rarely takes more than 10 seconds into an act to know if they're
crap or not.

--
Gods don't like people not doing much work. People who aren't busy all
the time might start to think.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-05-14 12:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 14 May 2018 13:35:41 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 23:43:47 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>>> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
>>>>> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>>>>>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>>>>>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>>>>>
>>>>> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
>>>>> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
>>>>> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
>>>>> just amateur hour with smoke machines.
>>>
>>>> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
>>>> country for?
>>>
>>> I don't think I would like Simon Cowell if I knew him personally, but I
>>> very much like him (most of the time) as a judge on these shows.
>>>
>>> He is nothing like Morgan who is a vile cunt 100% of the time and I am
>>> very glad BGT is well shot of him as I detested even seeing him on
>>> screen.
>>>
>>> The current lineup of judges on BGT is just about perfect for me. David
>>> is a goof and silly and loveable, Alesha is great with musical or dance
>>> acts, Amanda *wants* to like everyone, and Simon is the best judge of
>>> actual talent.
>>>
>>> I mean, David loves some acts that are just terrible, but that's sort of
>>> his thing. He's not a cunt whilst doing it.
>>>
>>> But if I were a singer on that stage, the only opinions I'd care about
>>> would be Ms Dixon and Mr Cowell. If I were a comedian, David (I don't
>>> know how to spell his not-williams last name) and Amanda.
>>>
>>> And whatever you think about Simon Cowell, at least he does seem to have
>>> the ability to laugh at himself.
>
>> I've never watched the American version, so I don't know what the
>> other judges are like, but when he was in the UK, he was the arsehole
>> who hated almost every contestant, usually 10 seconds into the act
>> before they'd even had a chance to get going.
>
> I am talking about the panel on BGT and made no mention of any American
> show.
>
> And it rarely takes more than 10 seconds into an act to know if they're
> crap or not.

Tony Cooper said "American Idol", you didn't say which you were referring to, unless you expect me to calculate your acronym.

I find on Britain's Got Talent (see I managed to type it), I tend to agree with the other judges more than Cowell.

--
Britney Spears is pregnant. She plans to breast feed.
In other words, the child will have an abundant supply of artificial milk.
Lewis
2018-05-14 22:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 May 2018 13:35:41 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 23:43:47 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>
>>>> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
>>>>>> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>>>>>>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>>>>>>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
>>>>>> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
>>>>>> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
>>>>>> just amateur hour with smoke machines.
>>>>
>>>>> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
>>>>> country for?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think I would like Simon Cowell if I knew him personally, but I
>>>> very much like him (most of the time) as a judge on these shows.
>>>>
>>>> He is nothing like Morgan who is a vile cunt 100% of the time and I am
>>>> very glad BGT is well shot of him as I detested even seeing him on
>>>> screen.
>>>>
>>>> The current lineup of judges on BGT is just about perfect for me. David
>>>> is a goof and silly and loveable, Alesha is great with musical or dance
>>>> acts, Amanda *wants* to like everyone, and Simon is the best judge of
>>>> actual talent.
>>>>
>>>> I mean, David loves some acts that are just terrible, but that's sort of
>>>> his thing. He's not a cunt whilst doing it.
>>>>
>>>> But if I were a singer on that stage, the only opinions I'd care about
>>>> would be Ms Dixon and Mr Cowell. If I were a comedian, David (I don't
>>>> know how to spell his not-williams last name) and Amanda.
>>>>
>>>> And whatever you think about Simon Cowell, at least he does seem to have
>>>> the ability to laugh at himself.
>>
>>> I've never watched the American version, so I don't know what the
>>> other judges are like, but when he was in the UK, he was the arsehole
>>> who hated almost every contestant, usually 10 seconds into the act
>>> before they'd even had a chance to get going.
>>
>> I am talking about the panel on BGT and made no mention of any American
>> show.
>>
>> And it rarely takes more than 10 seconds into an act to know if they're
>> crap or not.

> Tony Cooper said "American Idol", you didn't say which you were
> referring to, unless you expect me to calculate your acronym.

Yes, BGT is very well known. And the other names I mentioned are all on
BGT as well.

> I find on Britain's Got Talent (see I managed to type it), I tend to
> agree with the other judges more than Cowell.

David picks some utter crap, and Amanda is sometimes a sucker for sappy.


--
I CAN'T SEE DEAD PEOPLE Bart chalkboard Ep. BABF05
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-05-14 22:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 14 May 2018 23:08:32 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 May 2018 13:35:41 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>>> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 23:43:47 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
>>>>>>> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>>>>>>>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>>>>>>>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
>>>>>>> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
>>>>>>> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
>>>>>>> just amateur hour with smoke machines.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
>>>>>> country for?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think I would like Simon Cowell if I knew him personally, but I
>>>>> very much like him (most of the time) as a judge on these shows.
>>>>>
>>>>> He is nothing like Morgan who is a vile cunt 100% of the time and I am
>>>>> very glad BGT is well shot of him as I detested even seeing him on
>>>>> screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> The current lineup of judges on BGT is just about perfect for me. David
>>>>> is a goof and silly and loveable, Alesha is great with musical or dance
>>>>> acts, Amanda *wants* to like everyone, and Simon is the best judge of
>>>>> actual talent.
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean, David loves some acts that are just terrible, but that's sort of
>>>>> his thing. He's not a cunt whilst doing it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But if I were a singer on that stage, the only opinions I'd care about
>>>>> would be Ms Dixon and Mr Cowell. If I were a comedian, David (I don't
>>>>> know how to spell his not-williams last name) and Amanda.
>>>>>
>>>>> And whatever you think about Simon Cowell, at least he does seem to have
>>>>> the ability to laugh at himself.
>>>
>>>> I've never watched the American version, so I don't know what the
>>>> other judges are like, but when he was in the UK, he was the arsehole
>>>> who hated almost every contestant, usually 10 seconds into the act
>>>> before they'd even had a chance to get going.
>>>
>>> I am talking about the panel on BGT and made no mention of any American
>>> show.
>>>
>>> And it rarely takes more than 10 seconds into an act to know if they're
>>> crap or not.
>
>> Tony Cooper said "American Idol", you didn't say which you were
>> referring to, unless you expect me to calculate your acronym.
>
> Yes, BGT is very well known.

To people who regularly watch that boring shite.

> And the other names I mentioned are all on BGT as well.
>
>> I find on Britain's Got Talent (see I managed to type it), I tend to
>> agree with the other judges more than Cowell.
>
> David picks some utter crap, and Amanda is sometimes a sucker for sappy.

I prefer talent, but I guess talent isn't always what sells. The trick is to know what the majority of the public want to spend cash on.

--
Seven wheelchair athletes have been banned from the Paralympics after they tested positive for WD40.
Peeler
2018-05-14 22:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 14 May 2018 22:08:32 -0000 (UTC), Lewis, another mentally deficient
troll-feeding moron, blathered:

>
> David picks some utter crap, and Amanda is sometimes a sucker for sappy.

You certainly turned out to be an avid sucker of troll cock, you brain dead
asshole!
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-05-14 12:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 14 May 2018 13:35:41 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 23:43:47 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>>> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
>>>>> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>>>>>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>>>>>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>>>>>
>>>>> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
>>>>> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
>>>>> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
>>>>> just amateur hour with smoke machines.
>>>
>>>> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
>>>> country for?
>>>
>>> I don't think I would like Simon Cowell if I knew him personally, but I
>>> very much like him (most of the time) as a judge on these shows.
>>>
>>> He is nothing like Morgan who is a vile cunt 100% of the time and I am
>>> very glad BGT is well shot of him as I detested even seeing him on
>>> screen.
>>>
>>> The current lineup of judges on BGT is just about perfect for me. David
>>> is a goof and silly and loveable, Alesha is great with musical or dance
>>> acts, Amanda *wants* to like everyone, and Simon is the best judge of
>>> actual talent.
>>>
>>> I mean, David loves some acts that are just terrible, but that's sort of
>>> his thing. He's not a cunt whilst doing it.
>>>
>>> But if I were a singer on that stage, the only opinions I'd care about
>>> would be Ms Dixon and Mr Cowell. If I were a comedian, David (I don't
>>> know how to spell his not-williams last name) and Amanda.
>>>
>>> And whatever you think about Simon Cowell, at least he does seem to have
>>> the ability to laugh at himself.
>
>> I've never watched the American version, so I don't know what the
>> other judges are like, but when he was in the UK, he was the arsehole
>> who hated almost every contestant, usually 10 seconds into the act
>> before they'd even had a chance to get going.
>
> I am talking about the panel on BGT and made no mention of any American
> show.
>
> And it rarely takes more than 10 seconds into an act to know if they're
> crap or not.

Tony Cooper said "American Idol", you didn't say which you were referring to, unless you expect me to calculate your acronym.

I find on Britain's Got Talent (see I managed to type it), I tend to agree with the other judges more than Cowell.

--
Britney Spears is pregnant. She plans to breast feed.
In other words, the child will have an abundant supply of artificial milk.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-14 13:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 14 May 2018 12:35:41 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 23:43:47 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>>> In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
>>>>> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>>>>>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>>>>>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>>>>>
>>>>> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
>>>>> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
>>>>> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
>>>>> just amateur hour with smoke machines.
>>>
>>>> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
>>>> country for?
>>>
>>> I don't think I would like Simon Cowell if I knew him personally, but I
>>> very much like him (most of the time) as a judge on these shows.
>>>
>>> He is nothing like Morgan who is a vile cunt 100% of the time and I am
>>> very glad BGT is well shot of him as I detested even seeing him on
>>> screen.
>>>
>>> The current lineup of judges on BGT is just about perfect for me. David
>>> is a goof and silly and loveable, Alesha is great with musical or dance
>>> acts, Amanda *wants* to like everyone, and Simon is the best judge of
>>> actual talent.
>>>
>>> I mean, David loves some acts that are just terrible, but that's sort of
>>> his thing. He's not a cunt whilst doing it.
>>>
>>> But if I were a singer on that stage, the only opinions I'd care about
>>> would be Ms Dixon and Mr Cowell. If I were a comedian, David (I don't
>>> know how to spell his not-williams last name) and Amanda.
>>>
>>> And whatever you think about Simon Cowell, at least he does seem to have
>>> the ability to laugh at himself.
>
>> I've never watched the American version, so I don't know what the
>> other judges are like, but when he was in the UK, he was the arsehole
>> who hated almost every contestant, usually 10 seconds into the act
>> before they'd even had a chance to get going.
>
>I am talking about the panel on BGT and made no mention of any American
>show.
>
>And it rarely takes more than 10 seconds into an act to know if they're
>crap or not.

Sometimes an act will appear crap for a period that seems to drag on and
then bursts into life and becomes good. At least once, I think it was on
BGT, one of the judges pressed their buzzer and gave the act a red-X and
then when the performer had finished called for the red-X to be
cancelled.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peeler
2018-05-14 18:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 14 May 2018 12:35:41 -0000 (UTC), Lewis, another mentally deficient
troll-feeding morong, blathered:


> I am talking about the panel on BGT and made no mention of any American
> show.
>
> And it rarely takes more than 10 seconds into an act to know if they're
> crap or not.

So, for how long do you and the Scottish troll intend to keep on with this
idiotic drivel, troll-feeding idiot?
Tony Cooper
2018-05-13 23:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 22:43:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
>>> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>>>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>>>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>>>
>>> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
>>> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
>>> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
>>> just amateur hour with smoke machines.
>
>> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
>> country for?
>
>I don't think I would like Simon Cowell if I knew him personally, but I
>very much like him (most of the time) as a judge on these shows.

He was the only reason I watched "American Idol". He was at his best
when the performer was at his/her worst. Snarky, yes, but he really
knew talent.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-14 01:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 7:06:21 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> He was the only reason I watched "American Idol". He was at his best
> when the performer was at his/her worst. Snarky, yes, but he really
> knew talent.

Except when it came to anything except pop singing (which is all that
mattered on Idol, I suppose -- but not on AGT).

He knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about "singing opera." And if I heard "I didn't
like it. I LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!" one more time, I might have thrown something
at the TV.

And he had so little respect for the contestants or the event itself that
a ratty old T-shirt right out of the Downy commercial, "You look so ...
_comfortable_," was appropriate dress?
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-14 09:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 19:06:17 -0400, Tony Cooper
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 May 2018 22:43:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
><***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>>In message <***@red.lan> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <***@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:56:56 +0100, Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 00:17:53 +0100, Ian Jackson
>>>> <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Look, you nit-picking lot - it was around midnight, and I'd been
>>>>> watching the European Song Contest. That's enough to scramble ANYONE'S
>>>>> brains. I therefore offer NO apologies!
>>>>
>>>> On a somewhat related note, "American Idol" is being televised
>>>> tonight. I shan't be watching it. I did watch the show during
>>>> earlier seasons when Simon Cowell was a judge, but without Cowell it's
>>>> just amateur hour with smoke machines.
>>
>>> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
>>> country for?
>>
>>I don't think I would like Simon Cowell if I knew him personally, but I
>>very much like him (most of the time) as a judge on these shows.
>
>He was the only reason I watched "American Idol". He was at his best
>when the performer was at his/her worst. Snarky, yes, but he really
>knew talent.

Cowell still seems to have the same range of likes and dislikes but his
style of expressing a dislike has changed in the last few years. He is
less snarky. It has been suggested that the change started when he
became a father in 2014. His mother died the following year which might
have contributed to the change.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peeler
2018-05-13 23:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 22:43:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis, another mentally deficient
troll-feeding morong, blathered:

>> Cowell is an annoying cunt, what the fuck did you let him into your
>> country for?
>
> I don't think

Indeed, you don't, troll-feeding idiot!
>
> I mean,

I mean, you are a troll-feeding idiot!

> If I were a comedian

You aren't, but you are a laugh!

> And whatever you think

Nobody but an idiot gives a shit!

> at least he does seem to have the ability to laugh at himself.

The troll keeps laughing at you, fool!
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-13 06:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-12 23:05:03 +0000, Dingbat said:

> On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 4:25:27 AM UTC+5:30, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
>> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
>>> writes
>>>> On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
>>>>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>>>>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
>>>>>> correct too?
>>>>> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>>>>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
>>>>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>>>>> "an", as in "an interest".
>>>>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
>>>>> maybe
>>>>> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
>>>>> pretentious.
>>>>
>>>> The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
>>>> unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
>>>> correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r
>>>
>>> At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
>>> that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
>>> mean!).
>>> --
>>
>> Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!
>
> It's 'an honor', never 'a honor' Also 'an hour'.

"Heir"


--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 02:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 6:55:27 PM UTC-4, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:

> > At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
> > that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
> > mean!).
>
> Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!

And, of course, herb.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-13 06:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-13 02:31:16 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:

> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 6:55:27 PM UTC-4, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
>> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
>
>>> At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
>>> that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
>>> mean!).
>>
>> Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!
>
> And, of course, herb.

Only in American English.

--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-13 14:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 08:27:33 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2018-05-13 02:31:16 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>
>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 6:55:27 PM UTC-4, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>
>>>> At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
>>>> that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
>>>> mean!).
>>>
>>> Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!
>>
>> And, of course, herb.
>
>Only in American English.

To my ears, and I suspect to many other BrE ears, "an 'erb" sounds like
an affectation, even though it isn't.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-13 14:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-13 14:37:36 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:

> On Sun, 13 May 2018 08:27:33 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-05-13 02:31:16 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>
>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 6:55:27 PM UTC-4, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>>
>>>>> At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
>>>>> that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
>>>>> mean!).
>>>>
>>>> Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!
>>>
>>> And, of course, herb.
>>
>> Only in American English.
>
> To my ears, and I suspect to many other BrE ears, "an 'erb" sounds like
> an affectation, even though it isn't.

It's a curious exception to what is otherwise a general rule, that
h-dropping is very characteristic of many non-standard forms of British
English (I wouldn't be surprised if 'Arrison 'Ill as a little lad
dropped his h's until his mother drummed it out of him), but virtually
unknown in American English except in words like "hour" that are h-less
everywhere. The great Larry Trask speculated in one of his books
(probably Language: the Basics) that h-dropping would eventually appear
in non-standard speech somewhere in the USA and then spread over the
whole country, but he said it hadn't happened at the time of writing.


--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-05-15 11:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:33 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2018-05-13 02:31:16 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>
>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 6:55:27 PM UTC-4, Madrigal Gurneyhalt
>> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 23:30:40 UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>
>>>> At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English
>>>> words that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you
>>>> see what I mean!).
>>>
>>> Really? Honour, springs to mind immediately!
>>
>> And, of course, herb.
>
> Only in American English.
>

What a Herbert!

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Lewis
2018-05-13 05:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <***@brattleho.plus.com> Ian Jackson <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
> writes
>>On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
>>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
>>>>correct too?
>>> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
>>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>>> "an", as in "an interest".
>>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
>>>maybe
>>> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
>>> pretentious.
>>
>>The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
>>unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
>>correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r

> At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
> that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
> mean!).

It has nothing to do with stress, it has to do if you voide the h or
not. You say "a hospital" or "an 'ospital", depending on your
pronunciation.

If the word start with a vowel sound, you use an, otherwise you use a.
That's it. Not at all complicated.

People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
affectation.


--
'I don't like to ask them questions.' 'Why not?' 'They might give me
answers. And then what would I do?'
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 14:06:51 UTC
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On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 1:22:40 AM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:
> In message <***@brattleho.plus.com> Ian Jackson <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
> > writes
> >>On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
> >>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> >>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

> >>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
> >>>>correct too?
> >>> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
> >>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
> >>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
> >>> "an", as in "an interest".
> >>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
> >>>maybe
> >>> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
> >>> pretentious.
> >>The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
> >>unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
> >>correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r
> > At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
> > that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
> > mean!).
>
> It has nothing to do with stress, it has to do if you voide the h or
> not. You say "a hospital" or "an 'ospital", depending on your
> pronunciation.

Screwie Lewie knows what neither "stress" nor "voice" means.

> If the word start with a vowel sound, you use an, otherwise you use a.
> That's it. Not at all complicated.

Screwie Lewie is not familiar with the dialect -- RP -- that uses "an"
before an unstressed initial syllable beginning with [h].

> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
> affectation.

And some here think _I_ have a problem with England's prestige dialect!
Peter Moylan
2018-05-13 14:27:50 UTC
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On 13/05/18 15:22, Lewis wrote:

> It has nothing to do with stress, it has to do if you voide the h or
> not. You say "a hospital" or "an 'ospital", depending on your
> pronunciation.
>
> If the word start with a vowel sound, you use an, otherwise you use a.
> That's it. Not at all complicated.

Slightly complicated. I have in the past proposed to this forum that
there are three kinds of 'h': unvoiced, as in "hour"; half-voiced, as in
"historic"; and fully voiced, as in "hospital". The half-voiced case
arises whenever the initial syllable is unstressed.

Yes, there are dialects that reduce "hospital" and similar words to the
unvoiced or half-voiced cases, but that doesn't invalidate the general
theory.

> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
> affectation.

Affectation? Moi? What kind of fool am I?

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
2018-05-13 17:38:42 UTC
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Peter Moylan asked:
>
> What kind of fool am I?
>
One who never fell in love?

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 18:21:52 UTC
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On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 10:27:57 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 13/05/18 15:22, Lewis wrote:
>
> > It has nothing to do with stress, it has to do if you voide the h or
> > not. You say "a hospital" or "an 'ospital", depending on your
> > pronunciation.
> >
> > If the word start with a vowel sound, you use an, otherwise you use a.
> > That's it. Not at all complicated.
>
> Slightly complicated. I have in the past proposed to this forum that
> there are three kinds of 'h': unvoiced, as in "hour"; half-voiced, as in
> "historic"; and fully voiced, as in "hospital". The half-voiced case
> arises whenever the initial syllable is unstressed.

"h" is NEVER voiced. (Do not be dragged into the mud by Screwie Lewie.)

You could say it is either silent (as in "hour") or aspirated (as in
"historic" and "hospital"); the difference between "historic" and
"hospital" is that in "historic" its syllable is unstressed, and in
"hospital" its syllable is stressed.

"Voiced h" does exist -- its phonetic symbol is "hook-top h" and it is
found in Sanskrit as a realization of the aspiration in gh jh Dh dh bh.

> Yes, there are dialects that reduce "hospital" and similar words to the
> unvoiced or half-voiced cases, but that doesn't invalidate the general
> theory.
>
> > People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
> > affectation.
>
> Affectation? Moi? What kind of fool am I?

Raspberry. What's a Goulet?
Dingbat
2018-05-14 02:30:38 UTC
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On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 11:51:55 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 10:27:57 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 13/05/18 15:22, Lewis wrote:
> >
> > > It has nothing to do with stress, it has to do if you voide the h or
> > > not. You say "a hospital" or "an 'ospital", depending on your
> > > pronunciation.
> > >
> > > If the word start with a vowel sound, you use an, otherwise you use a.
> > > That's it. Not at all complicated.
> >
> > Slightly complicated. I have in the past proposed to this forum that
> > there are three kinds of 'h': unvoiced, as in "hour"; half-voiced, as in
> > "historic"; and fully voiced, as in "hospital". The half-voiced case
> > arises whenever the initial syllable is unstressed.
>
> "h" is NEVER voiced. (Do not be dragged into the mud by Screwie Lewie.)

... unless you have a Dutch accent.

> You could say it is either silent (as in "hour") or aspirated (as in
> "historic" and "hospital"); the difference between "historic" and
> "hospital" is that in "historic" its syllable is unstressed, and in
> "hospital" its syllable is stressed.
>
> "Voiced h" does exist -- its phonetic symbol is "hook-top h" and it is
> found in Sanskrit as a realization of the aspiration in gh jh Dh dh bh.
>
> > Yes, there are dialects that reduce "hospital" and similar words to the
> > unvoiced or half-voiced cases, but that doesn't invalidate the general
> > theory.
> >
> > > People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
> > > affectation.
> >
> > Affectation? Moi? What kind of fool am I?
>
> Raspberry. What's a Goulet?
Lewis
2018-05-13 19:22:57 UTC
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In message <pd9i1a$ho6$***@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 13/05/18 15:22, Lewis wrote:

>> It has nothing to do with stress, it has to do if you voide the h or
>> not. You say "a hospital" or "an 'ospital", depending on your
>> pronunciation.
>>
>> If the word start with a vowel sound, you use an, otherwise you use a.
>> That's it. Not at all complicated.

> Slightly complicated. I have in the past proposed to this forum that
> there are three kinds of 'h': unvoiced, as in "hour"; half-voiced, as in
> "historic"; and fully voiced, as in "hospital". The half-voiced case
> arises whenever the initial syllable is unstressed.

I'm with you up until the syllable. It's simply the sound of the 'h' If
it is there as in Hard, the word starts with a consonant; if it is
absent (or nearly so), then the word starts with a vowel.

> Yes, there are dialects that reduce "hospital" and similar words to the
> unvoiced or half-voiced cases, but that doesn't invalidate the general
> theory.

>> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
>> affectation.

> Affectation? Moi? What kind of fool am I?

Do you say "an'" before a hard h?

(I write 'a UFO' because I says "a You Ef Oh", but evidently some people
write 'an UFO' because they say 'an oofoh", though I've never heard this
myself.)

--
Personal isn't the same as important
Peter Moylan
2018-05-14 02:23:11 UTC
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On 14/05/18 05:22, Lewis wrote:
> In message <pd9i1a$ho6$***@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 13/05/18 15:22, Lewis wrote:
>
>>> It has nothing to do with stress, it has to do if you voide the h or
>>> not. You say "a hospital" or "an 'ospital", depending on your
>>> pronunciation.
>>>
>>> If the word start with a vowel sound, you use an, otherwise you use a.
>>> That's it. Not at all complicated.
>
>> Slightly complicated. I have in the past proposed to this forum that
>> there are three kinds of 'h': unvoiced, as in "hour"; half-voiced, as in
>> "historic"; and fully voiced, as in "hospital". The half-voiced case
>> arises whenever the initial syllable is unstressed.
>
> I'm with you up until the syllable. It's simply the sound of the 'h' If
> it is there as in Hard, the word starts with a consonant; if it is
> absent (or nearly so), then the word starts with a vowel.
>
>> Yes, there are dialects that reduce "hospital" and similar words to the
>> unvoiced or half-voiced cases, but that doesn't invalidate the general
>> theory.
>
>>> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
>>> affectation.
>
>> Affectation? Moi? What kind of fool am I?
>
> Do you say "an'" before a hard h?

Yes, I do. My 'h' is clearly present in words like "hard" and
"hospital". But it's close to inaudible in a small number of words like
"historic".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Will Parsons
2018-05-17 01:31:18 UTC
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On Sunday, 13 May 2018 10:23 PM -0400, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 14/05/18 05:22, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <pd9i1a$ho6$***@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 13/05/18 15:22, Lewis wrote:
>>
>>>> It has nothing to do with stress, it has to do if you voide the h or
>>>> not. You say "a hospital" or "an 'ospital", depending on your
>>>> pronunciation.
>>>>
>>>> If the word start with a vowel sound, you use an, otherwise you use a.
>>>> That's it. Not at all complicated.
>>
>>> Slightly complicated. I have in the past proposed to this forum that
>>> there are three kinds of 'h': unvoiced, as in "hour"; half-voiced, as in
>>> "historic"; and fully voiced, as in "hospital". The half-voiced case
>>> arises whenever the initial syllable is unstressed.
>>
>> I'm with you up until the syllable. It's simply the sound of the 'h' If
>> it is there as in Hard, the word starts with a consonant; if it is
>> absent (or nearly so), then the word starts with a vowel.
>>
>>> Yes, there are dialects that reduce "hospital" and similar words to the
>>> unvoiced or half-voiced cases, but that doesn't invalidate the general
>>> theory.
>>
>>>> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
>>>> affectation.
>>
>>> Affectation? Moi? What kind of fool am I?
>>
>> Do you say "an'" before a hard h?
>
> Yes, I do. My 'h' is clearly present in words like "hard" and
> "hospital". But it's close to inaudible in a small number of words like
> "historic".

I agree, and I am one of those who use "an historic ...", &c.

Now, here's a question which I think is relevant to the "a" vs "an" in
these words. How do people pronounce "the historic ...."?

Before reading further, pause to ask yourself that question (and, yes,
sometimes consciously examining how one pronounces something may
affect the result).

How do you utter the phrase "the historic ..."? (Do the exercise
before proceeding farther...)

OK, time's up.

First of all, *my* answer to that question is: [ðiɪˈstɔrɪk]

The two allomorphs of the English indefinite article are clearly
distinguished in writing by being spelt differently: "a" vs "an".

The two allomorphs of the English definite article share the same
spelling, "the", but are pronounced differently, [ðə] vs [ði], with
the same distribution as the indefinite article.

I naturally find the /h/ in following unaccented syllables is at least
partially quiescent, so my pronunciation "an historic" [æn(h)ɪˈstɔrɪk]
corresponds with "the historic" [ðiɪˈstɔrɪk]. Presumably, those who
say "a historic" ([əhɪˈstɔrɪk]?) also would say [ðəhɪˈstɔrɪk]. So, is
that true for you who have done the exercise above?

One last note for comparison: in words like "vehicle", the <h> is (in
most English dialects) completely silent, [ˈviəkl], according to the
normal pattern for unaccented, uninitial syllables of the pattern
/hV/. In the derived form "vehicular", the H is fully sounded,
[vɪˈhɪkjə(r)] (or similar), since in that form the /hV/ syllable is
accented.

--
Will
Peter Moylan
2018-05-17 05:16:50 UTC
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On 17/05/18 11:31, Will Parsons wrote:

> How do you utter the phrase "the historic ..."? (Do the exercise
> before proceeding farther...)
>
> OK, time's up.

It's hard to be certain, but I think I have a glide: thee yistoric.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-17 16:26:52 UTC
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On 2018-05-17 05:16:50 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 17/05/18 11:31, Will Parsons wrote:
>
>> How do you utter the phrase "the historic ..."? (Do the exercise
>> before proceeding farther...)
>>
>> OK, time's up.
>
> It's hard to be certain, but I think I have a glide: thee yistoric.

I read in one guide (I don't remember which*) that pronouncing every h
in a sentence like "Hunt has hurt his head" sounds worse than not
pronouncing any of them.

*No, but Google does: it was Fowler (1926).


--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-17 17:54:17 UTC
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On Thursday, May 17, 2018 at 12:26:56 PM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-17 05:16:50 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> > On 17/05/18 11:31, Will Parsons wrote:

> >> How do you utter the phrase "the historic ..."? (Do the exercise
> >> before proceeding farther...)
> >> OK, time's up.
> > It's hard to be certain, but I think I have a glide: thee yistoric.
>
> I read in one guide (I don't remember which*) that pronouncing every h
> in a sentence like "Hunt has hurt his head" sounds worse than not
> pronouncing any of them.
>
> *No, but Google does: it was Fowler (1926).

That's reasonable even in American, because the unstressed function words
are indeed often reduced to a quick vowel+consonant -- only we don't
fetishize it. "***@zhurtizhead." "Hunt's hurt ..." would be less likely;
more formal, oddly.

In the 1970s David Stampe attempted to introduce accurate phonetic
transcription of English, under the rubric Natural Phonology. He wanted
to entitle his dissertation "What I Did on My Summer Vacation," but the
University of Chicago Linguistics Department wouldn't let him, so it's
"A Dissertation on Natural Phonology." It's essentially the low-level
rules that go from the output of Chomsky-Halle phonology to English As
She Is Spoke.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-18 09:47:21 UTC
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On 2018-05-17 19:54:17 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels" <***@verizon.net> said:

> On Thursday, May 17, 2018 at 12:26:56 PM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-17 05:16:50 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>> On 17/05/18 11:31, Will Parsons wrote:
>
>>>> How do you utter the phrase "the historic ..."? (Do the exercise
>>>> before proceeding farther...)
>>>> OK, time's up.
>>> It's hard to be certain, but I think I have a glide: thee yistoric.
>>
>> I read in one guide (I don't remember which*) that pronouncing every h
>> in a sentence like "Hunt has hurt his head" sounds worse than not
>> pronouncing any of them.
>>
>> *No, but Google does: it was Fowler (1926).

Google also tells me that he said it was almost as bad, not worse.
>
> That's reasonable even in American, because the unstressed function words
> are indeed often reduced to a quick vowel+consonant -- only we don't
> fetishize it. "***@zhurtizhead." "Hunt's hurt ..." would be less likely;
> more formal, oddly.
>
> In the 1970s David Stampe attempted to introduce accurate phonetic
> transcription of English, under the rubric Natural Phonology. He wanted
> to entitle his dissertation "What I Did on My Summer Vacation," but the
> University of Chicago Linguistics Department wouldn't let him, so it's
> "A Dissertation on Natural Phonology." It's essentially the low-level
> rules that go from the output of Chomsky-Halle phonology to English As
> She Is Spoke.


--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-17 16:42:03 UTC
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On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 at 9:31:21 PM UTC-4, Will Parsons wrote:
> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 10:23 PM -0400, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 14/05/18 05:22, Lewis wrote:
> >> In message <pd9i1a$ho6$***@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>> On 13/05/18 15:22, Lewis wrote:
> >>
> >>>> It has nothing to do with stress, it has to do if you voide the h or
> >>>> not. You say "a hospital" or "an 'ospital", depending on your
> >>>> pronunciation.
> >>>>
> >>>> If the word start with a vowel sound, you use an, otherwise you use a.
> >>>> That's it. Not at all complicated.
> >>
> >>> Slightly complicated. I have in the past proposed to this forum that
> >>> there are three kinds of 'h': unvoiced, as in "hour"; half-voiced, as in
> >>> "historic"; and fully voiced, as in "hospital". The half-voiced case
> >>> arises whenever the initial syllable is unstressed.
> >>
> >> I'm with you up until the syllable. It's simply the sound of the 'h' If
> >> it is there as in Hard, the word starts with a consonant; if it is
> >> absent (or nearly so), then the word starts with a vowel.
> >>
> >>> Yes, there are dialects that reduce "hospital" and similar words to the
> >>> unvoiced or half-voiced cases, but that doesn't invalidate the general
> >>> theory.
> >>
> >>>> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
> >>>> affectation.
> >>
> >>> Affectation? Moi? What kind of fool am I?
> >>
> >> Do you say "an'" before a hard h?
> >
> > Yes, I do. My 'h' is clearly present in words like "hard" and
> > "hospital". But it's close to inaudible in a small number of words like
> > "historic".
>
> I agree, and I am one of those who use "an historic ...", &c.
>
> Now, here's a question which I think is relevant to the "a" vs "an" in
> these words. How do people pronounce "the historic ...."?
>
> Before reading further, pause to ask yourself that question (and, yes,
> sometimes consciously examining how one pronounces something may
> affect the result).
>
> How do you utter the phrase "the historic ..."? (Do the exercise
> before proceeding farther...)
>
> OK, time's up.
>
> First of all, *my* answer to that question is: [ðiɪˈstɔrɪk]
>
> The two allomorphs of the English indefinite article are clearly
> distinguished in writing by being spelt differently: "a" vs "an".
>
> The two allomorphs of the English definite article share the same
> spelling, "the", but are pronounced differently, [ðə] vs [ði], with
> the same distribution as the indefinite article.
>
> I naturally find the /h/ in following unaccented syllables is at least
> partially quiescent, so my pronunciation "an historic" [æn(h)ɪˈstɔrɪk]

Based on my imagination of your East Coast accent, I'm surprised you
don't say [æn(h)ɪˈstɒrɪk] with the LOT vowel.

> corresponds with "the historic" [ðiɪˈstɔrɪk]. Presumably, those who
> say "a historic" ([əhɪˈstɔrɪk]?) also would say [ðəhɪˈstɔrɪk]. So, is
> that true for you who have done the exercise above?

Yes. As far as I'm concerned, [h] is a consonant like any other.

The other other word that changes pronunciation before a vowel
is "to", but I'm not consistent about that one before actual
vowels.

--
Jerry Friedman
STS warning:
I have seen it in the watchfires of an hundred circling camps.
Will Parsons
2018-05-17 18:56:01 UTC
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On Thursday, 17 May 2018 12:42 PM -0400, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 at 9:31:21 PM UTC-4, Will Parsons wrote:
>> ...
>> How do you utter the phrase "the historic ..."? (Do the exercise
>> before proceeding farther...)
>>
>> OK, time's up.
>>
>> First of all, *my* answer to that question is: [ðiɪˈstɔrɪk]
>>
>> The two allomorphs of the English indefinite article are clearly
>> distinguished in writing by being spelt differently: "a" vs "an".
>>
>> The two allomorphs of the English definite article share the same
>> spelling, "the", but are pronounced differently, [ðə] vs [ði], with
>> the same distribution as the indefinite article.
>>
>> I naturally find the /h/ in following unaccented syllables is at least
>> partially quiescent, so my pronunciation "an historic" [æn(h)ɪˈstɔrɪk]
>
> Based on my imagination of your East Coast accent, I'm surprised you
> don't say [æn(h)ɪˈstɒrɪk] with the LOT vowel.

I tried to check myself carefully before typing that rendition, and
although most traditionally "short O's" come out as [ɒ] in my
pronunciation, I'm pretty sure I do use [ɔ] in that word. (Perhaps
it's conditioned by the following /r/, but I'm not sure of that.)

--
Will
Quinn C
2018-05-15 17:28:49 UTC
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* Lewis:

> (I write 'a UFO' because I says "a You Ef Oh", but evidently some people
> write 'an UFO' because they say 'an oofoh", though I've never heard this
> myself.)

From Germans, maybe. I think the only other genuine English
pronunciation is "you-foe".

--
... English-speaking people have managed to get along a good many
centuries with the present supply of pronouns; ... It is so old and
venerable an argument ... it's equivalent was used when gas, railways
and steamboats were proposed. -- Findlay (OH) Jeffersonian (1875)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-15 20:18:19 UTC
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On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 1:28:53 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Lewis:

> > (I write 'a UFO' because I says "a You Ef Oh", but evidently some people
> > write 'an UFO' because they say 'an oofoh", though I've never heard this
> > myself.)
>
> From Germans, maybe. I think the only other genuine English
> pronunciation is "you-foe".

I have never encountered "you-foe" (or Screwie Lewie's "oofoh"). It's "a UFO."
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-15 22:01:11 UTC
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On Tue, 15 May 2018 13:18:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<***@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 1:28:53 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Lewis:
>
>> > (I write 'a UFO' because I says "a You Ef Oh", but evidently some people
>> > write 'an UFO' because they say 'an oofoh", though I've never heard this
>> > myself.)
>>
>> From Germans, maybe. I think the only other genuine English
>> pronunciation is "you-foe".
>
>I have never encountered "you-foe" (or Screwie Lewie's "oofoh"). It's "a UFO."

Oxford Dictionaries agrees with you for AmE. However, in BrE it is
pronounced either as an initialism (you eff oh) or as an acronym
(you-foe).

In both Englishes, "ufo" in ufology, ufologist and ufological is spoken
as part of the word.

BrE audio clips here:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ufo


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Janet
2018-05-15 22:46:02 UTC
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In article <30c73319-d908-4598-8931-***@googlegroups.com>,
***@verizon.net says...
>
> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 1:28:53 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> > * Lewis:
>
> > > (I write 'a UFO' because I says "a You Ef Oh", but evidently some people
> > > write 'an UFO' because they say 'an oofoh", though I've never heard this
> > > myself.)
> >
> > From Germans, maybe. I think the only other genuine English
> > pronunciation is "you-foe".
>
> I have never encountered "you-foe" (or Screwie Lewie's "oofoh"). It's "a UFO."

I've often heard (and use) you-foe.

Janet

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Lewis
2018-05-15 22:51:17 UTC
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In message <kza046gy75r1$***@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * Lewis:

>> (I write 'a UFO' because I says "a You Ef Oh", but evidently some people
>> write 'an UFO' because they say 'an oofoh", though I've never heard this
>> myself.)

> From Germans, maybe. I think the only other genuine English
> pronunciation is "you-foe".

That would still be a you-foe



--
Let him who desires peace, prepare for war.
Anders D. Nygaard
2018-05-23 20:52:03 UTC
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Den 15-05-2018 kl. 19:28 skrev Quinn C:
> * Lewis:
>
>> (I write 'a UFO' because I says "a You Ef Oh", but evidently some people
>> write 'an UFO' because they say 'an oofoh", though I've never heard this
>> myself.)
>
> From Germans, maybe. I think the only other genuine English
> pronunciation is "you-foe".

Or "Unidentified flying object"? Which would explain the article "an".

/Anders, Denmark.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-05-13 14:45:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:22:38 +0100, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <***@brattleho.plus.com> Ian Jackson <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <***@news2.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
>> writes
>>> On 5/11/2018 6:30 PM, micky wrote:
>>>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>>>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
>>>>> correct too?
>>>> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>>>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
>>>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>>>> "an", as in "an interest".
>>>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
>>>> maybe
>>>> I'm judged them harshly. After all, they can't help it if they are
>>>> pretentious.
>>>
>>> The second part of the rule is "or if the syllable beginning with H is
>>> unstressed", so as long as you pronounce it "HISTER-ick", you're
>>> correct to use "a" rather than "an"....r
>
>> At the moment, I can't think of any properly-pronounced English words
>> that begin with an 'h', that don't begin with an 'h' (if you see what I
>> mean!).
>
> It has nothing to do with stress, it has to do if you voide the h or
> not. You say "a hospital" or "an 'ospital", depending on your
> pronunciation.
>
> If the word start with a vowel sound, you use an, otherwise you use a.
> That's it. Not at all complicated.
>
> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
> affectation.

I'm glad to hear most of you agree with me on this. I thought "an historic" was "prim and proper" and I was being chavvy saying "a historic".

--
A penny saved is a government oversight.
pensive hamster
2018-05-13 15:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 06:22:40 UTC+1, Lewis wrote:
[...]
> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
> affectation.

Can an affectation really be ignorant? Doesn't proper
affectation have to be to some degree knowing and
deliberate, otherwise it would be something closer to an
unconscious habit?

Personally, I say "an historic event", "a history lesson",
"an historian", "a hummus recipe". I consider consistency
overrated.
CDB
2018-05-13 16:49:13 UTC
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Raw Message
On 5/13/2018 11:18 AM, pensive hamster wrote:
> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 06:22:40 UTC+1, Lewis wrote:
> [...]
>> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
>> affectation.
>
> Can an affectation really be ignorant? Doesn't proper
> affectation have to be to some degree knowing and
> deliberate, otherwise it would be something closer to an
> unconscious habit?
>
> Personally, I say "an historic event", "a history lesson",
> "an historian", "a hummus recipe". I consider consistency
> overrated.

But it's consistently related to the presence ("a hummus recipe") or
absence ("an [h]istoric hummus recipe") in the following syllable.
pensive hamster
2018-05-13 17:14:28 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:49:30 UTC+1, CDB wrote:
> On 5/13/2018 11:18 AM, pensive hamster wrote:
> > On Sunday, 13 May 2018 06:22:40 UTC+1, Lewis wrote:
> > [...]
> >> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
> >> affectation.
> >
> > Can an affectation really be ignorant? Doesn't proper
> > affectation have to be to some degree knowing and
> > deliberate, otherwise it would be something closer to an
> > unconscious habit?
> >
> > Personally, I say "an historic event", "a history lesson",
> > "an historian", "a hummus recipe". I consider consistency
> > overrated.
>
> But it's consistently related to the presence ("a hummus recipe") or
> absence ("an [h]istoric hummus recipe") in the following syllable.

However, that doesn't seem entirely consistent with saying
"an historic event", but saying "a history lesson".

The stress in "historic" seems to fall on the second syllable,
while in "history" and "hummus" it seems to fall on the first
syllable. So perhaps it is more a question of how to form
the words most easily, with a minimum of tongue movements.
CDB
2018-05-14 11:21:52 UTC
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Raw Message
On 5/13/2018 1:14 PM, pensive hamster wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> pensive hamster wrote:
>>> Lewis wrote:

>>> [...]
>>>> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
>>>> affectation.

>>> Can an affectation really be ignorant? Doesn't proper
>>> affectation have to be to some degree knowing and
>>> deliberate, otherwise it would be something closer to an
>>> unconscious habit?

>>> Personally, I say "an historic event", "a history lesson",
>>> "an historian", "a hummus recipe". I consider consistency
>>> overrated.

>> But it's consistently related to the presence ("a hummus recipe") or
>> absence ("an [h]istoric hummus recipe")[*] in the following syllable.

> However, that doesn't seem entirely consistent with saying
> "an historic event", but saying "a history lesson".

*Some terrist stole the "of stress" right out of my sentence. In words
that I do treat as if they began with a vowel ("historic" is one) the
trick only works if there is no stress, primary or secondary, on the
first syllable of the candidate; in those cases, the "h" is essentially
silent. I think. I will try to catch myself saying "historicity" in an
unguarded moment.

> The stress in "historic" seems to fall on the second syllable,
> while in "history" and "hummus" it seems to fall on the first
> syllable. So perhaps it is more a question of how to form
> the words most easily, with a minimum of tongue movements.

Ne'er so well expressed, by me at least.
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-14 13:47:15 UTC
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Raw Message
On 5/13/18 11:14 AM, pensive hamster wrote:
> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:49:30 UTC+1, CDB wrote:
>> On 5/13/2018 11:18 AM, pensive hamster wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 06:22:40 UTC+1, Lewis wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
>>>> affectation.
>>>
>>> Can an affectation really be ignorant? Doesn't proper
>>> affectation have to be to some degree knowing and
>>> deliberate, otherwise it would be something closer to an
>>> unconscious habit?
>>>
>>> Personally, I say "an historic event", "a history lesson",
>>> "an historian", "a hummus recipe". I consider consistency
>>> overrated.
>>
>> But it's consistently related to the presence ("a hummus recipe") or
>> absence ("an [h]istoric hummus recipe") in the following syllable.
>
> However, that doesn't seem entirely consistent with saying
> "an historic event", but saying "a history lesson".
>
> The stress in "historic" seems to fall on the second syllable,
> while in "history" and "hummus" it seems to fall on the first
> syllable.

Consistent with the Draney rule.

> So perhaps it is more a question of how to form
> the words most easily, with a minimum of tongue movements.

I doubt the difficulty is tongue movement--at least my tongue moves very
little in "a historic". It's turning your vocal cords off and back on.

Do you say "a Hawaiian shirt" or "an Hawaiian shirt"? Likewise for
"hilarious joke"?

The 'istory of these words is undoubtedly complicated, but there is
evidence that affectation is at least involved, namely that "an" is a
lot more common before solemn or highfalutin words such as "historic"
and "heroic" than before words that go with a more ordinary tone.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=an+hilarious%2Fa+hilarious%2Can+historic%2Fa+historic&year_start=1870&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2C%28an%20hilarious%20/%20a%20hilarious%29%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2C%28an%20historic%20/%20a%20historic%29%3B%2Cc0

https://bit.ly/2uDkTtE

--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 18:24:15 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 11:18:41 AM UTC-4, pensive hamster wrote:
> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 06:22:40 UTC+1, Lewis wrote:

> > People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
> > affectation.
>
> Can an affectation really be ignorant? Doesn't proper
> affectation have to be to some degree knowing and
> deliberate, otherwise it would be something closer to an
> unconscious habit?
>
> Personally, I say "an historic event", "a history lesson",
> "an historian", "a hummus recipe". I consider consistency
> overrated.

You are perfectly consistent. You add the [n] before an initial h in an
unstressed syllable.
Lewis
2018-05-13 19:26:17 UTC
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In message <af053fbe-68f0-4783-b0e7-***@googlegroups.com> pensive hamster <***@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 06:22:40 UTC+1, Lewis wrote:
> [...]
>> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
>> affectation.

> Can an affectation really be ignorant? Doesn't proper
> affectation have to be to some degree knowing and
> deliberate, otherwise it would be something closer to an
> unconscious habit?

It is ignorant because the an is an affectation but they are ignorant
that it requires softening (or eliminating) the 'h' sound.

> Personally, I say "an historic event", "a history lesson",
> "an historian", "a hummus recipe". I consider consistency
> overrated.

I've known people who would say a history lesson and an [h]istorian and
an [h]istoric event. There is no inconsistency if the pronunciation of
the h matches.


--
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is
possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
impossible, he is probably wrong.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 19:38:08 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 3:26:19 PM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:
> In message <af053fbe-68f0-4783-b0e7-***@googlegroups.com> pensive hamster <***@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Sunday, 13 May 2018 06:22:40 UTC+1, Lewis wrote:

> >> People who say "an historic" are simply fools with an ignorant
> >> affectation.
> > Can an affectation really be ignorant? Doesn't proper
> > affectation have to be to some degree knowing and
> > deliberate, otherwise it would be something closer to an
> > unconscious habit?
>
> It is ignorant because the an is an affectation but they are ignorant
> that it requires softening (or eliminating) the 'h' sound.
>
> > Personally, I say "an historic event", "a history lesson",
> > "an historian", "a hummus recipe". I consider consistency
> > overrated.
>
> I've known people who would say a history lesson and an [h]istorian and
> an [h]istoric event. There is no inconsistency if the pronunciation of
> the h matches.

Screwie Lewie actually does not know that speakers of different dialects
speak differently.

Please, everyone, ignore anything he might say about the English language.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-12 06:49:14 UTC
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On 2018-05-12 01:30:55 +0000, micky said:

> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic' correct too?
>
> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
> "an", as in "an interest".
>
> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but maybe
> I'm judged them harshly.

No, you're not; you're judging them accurately.

> After all, they can't help it if they are
> pretentious.
>
>> Jerusalem to Tel Aviv: an historic high-speed railway
>> https://www.railway-technology.com/features/jerusalem-tel-aviv-historic-high-speed-railway/
>>


--
athel
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 12:28:28 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 08:49:14 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2018-05-12 01:30:55 +0000, micky said:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic' correct too?
>>
>> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>> "an", as in "an interest".
>>
>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but maybe
>> I'm judged them harshly.
>
>No, you're not; you're judging them accurately.

Listening to a recording of my voice saying "It's a historic day" and
"It's an historic day", in both cases it comes out more like "It's uh
historic day".

That's if I allow my speech to be natural. I can, of course, clearly
enunciate the "a" or "an".


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
CDB
2018-05-12 13:17:44 UTC
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Raw Message
On 5/12/2018 2:49 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> micky said:
>> Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
>>> correct too?

>> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If
>> the h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be
>> preceded by "an", as in "an interest".

>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
>> maybe I'm judged them harshly.

> No, you're not; you're judging them accurately.

Cruel. I say "an" with a number of words that qualify under the rule,
but not all. I suppose that means that I have that pattern, learnt in
childhood, in the context of particular words that I encountered at home.

>> After all, they can't help it if they are pretentious.

Like the rest of our species. The Overweening Ape.

>>> Jerusalem to Tel Aviv: an historic high-speed railway
>>> https://www.railway-technology.com/features/jerusalem-tel-aviv-historic-high-speed-railway/
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-05-13 14:46:43 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 14:17:44 +0100, CDB <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/12/2018 2:49 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> micky said:
>>> Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
>>>> correct too?
>
>>> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If
>>> the h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be
>>> preceded by "an", as in "an interest".
>
>>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but
>>> maybe I'm judged them harshly.
>
>> No, you're not; you're judging them accurately.
>
> Cruel. I say "an" with a number of words that qualify under the rule,
> but not all. I suppose that means that I have that pattern, learnt in
> childhood, in the context of particular words that I encountered at home.

Do you walk with your nose in the air?

--
Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now.
Paul Carmichael
2018-05-12 16:16:04 UTC
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Raw Message
On 12/05/18 08:49, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-12 01:30:55 +0000, micky said:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic' correct too?
>>
>> I prefer "a historic".  I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny".  If the
>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>> "an", as in "an interest".
>>
>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but maybe
>> I'm judged them harshly.
>
> No, you're not; you're judging them accurately.

Are they trying to sound French?

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-12 16:51:13 UTC
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Raw Message
On 2018-05-12 16:16:04 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:

> On 12/05/18 08:49, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-12 01:30:55 +0000, micky said:
>>
>>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic' correct too?
>>>
>>> I prefer "a historic".  I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny".  If the
>>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>>> "an", as in "an interest".
>>>
>>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but maybe
>>> I'm judged them harshly.
>>
>> No, you're not; you're judging them accurately.
>
> Are they trying to sound French?

Probably. My daughter, who _is_ French, says "an hotel", but as she
doesn't pronounce the h that's OK. On the whole she doesn't use French
pronunciations in English, but in that case she does.


--
athel
Dingbat
2018-05-12 22:59:46 UTC
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Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 10:21:16 PM UTC+5:30, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-12 16:16:04 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:
>
> > On 12/05/18 08:49, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2018-05-12 01:30:55 +0000, micky said:
> >>
> >>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> >>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic' correct too?
> >>>
> >>> I prefer "a historic".  I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
> >>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny".  If the
> >>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
> >>> "an", as in "an interest".
> >>>
> >>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but maybe
> >>> I'm judged them harshly.
> >>
> >> No, you're not; you're judging them accurately.
> >
> > Are they trying to sound French?
>
> Probably.

So, some pronounce 'an historic' like 'an istorique'?

> My daughter, who _is_ French, says "an hotel", but as she
> doesn't pronounce the h that's OK. On the whole she doesn't use French
> pronunciations in English, but in that case she does.

... always meaning a hotel? An [otEl] isn't necessarily a hotel in French.
Consider 'hotel de ville'.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-13 06:24:05 UTC
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Raw Message
On 2018-05-12 22:59:46 +0000, Dingbat said:

> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 10:21:16 PM UTC+5:30, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-12 16:16:04 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:
>>
>>> On 12/05/18 08:49, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>> On 2018-05-12 01:30:55 +0000, micky said:
>>>>
>>>>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>>>>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic' correct too?
>>>>>
>>>>> I prefer "a historic".  I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>>>>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny".  If the
>>>>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>>>>> "an", as in "an interest".
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but maybe
>>>>> I'm judged them harshly.
>>>>
>>>> No, you're not; you're judging them accurately.
>>>
>>> Are they trying to sound French?
>>
>> Probably.
>
> So, some pronounce 'an historic' like 'an istorique'?
>
>> My daughter, who _is_ French, says "an hotel", but as she> doesn't
>> pronounce the h that's OK. On the whole she doesn't use French>
>> pronunciations in English, but in that case she does.
>
> ... always meaning a hotel? An [otEl] isn't necessarily a hotel in French.
> Consider 'hotel de ville'.

Yes indeed, or "hôtel de police". However, in English she would always
mean the English sense (unless referring to a specific place, like
l'Hôtel de Ville de Paris).

--
athel
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
2018-05-17 15:44:21 UTC
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Raw Message
On 5/12/2018 3:59 PM, Dingbat wrote:
> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 10:21:16 PM UTC+5:30, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-12 16:16:04 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:
>>
>>> On 12/05/18 08:49, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>> On 2018-05-12 01:30:55 +0000, micky said:
>>>>
>>>>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>>>>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic' correct too?
>>>>>
>>>>> I prefer "a historic".  I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>>>>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny".  If the
>>>>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>>>>> "an", as in "an interest".
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but maybe
>>>>> I'm judged them harshly.
>>>>
>>>> No, you're not; you're judging them accurately.
>>>
>>> Are they trying to sound French?
>>
>> Probably.
>
> So, some pronounce 'an historic' like 'an istorique'?
>
>> My daughter, who _is_ French, says "an hotel", but as she
>> doesn't pronounce the h that's OK. On the whole she doesn't use French
>> pronunciations in English, but in that case she does.
>
> ... always meaning a hotel? An [otEl] isn't necessarily a hotel in French.
> Consider 'hotel de ville'.
>

French girls are nasty.
Peter Moylan
2018-05-13 14:52:02 UTC
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Raw Message
On 13/05/18 02:51, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-12 16:16:04 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:
>
>> On 12/05/18 08:49, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2018-05-12 01:30:55 +0000, micky said:
>>>
>>>> In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 11 May 2018 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
>>>> <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a historic'
>>>>> correct too?
>>>>
>>>> I prefer "a historic". I have always puffed my h's a little bit at
>>>> least, so they should be preceded by "a", as in "a hootenanny". If the
>>>> h is silent, or almost silent, people think they should be preceded by
>>>> "an", as in "an interest".
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, it's always seemed to me an affectation to use "an" but maybe
>>>> I'm judged them harshly.
>>>
>>> No, you're not; you're judging them accurately.
>>
>> Are they trying to sound French?
>
> Probably. My daughter, who _is_ French, says "an hotel", but as she
> doesn't pronounce the h that's OK. On the whole she doesn't use French
> pronunciations in English, but in that case she does.

Let us note that French makes a clear distinction between two kinds of
'h'. The "h muet" is silent, and the "h aspiré" is not. In practice both
kinds of 'h' are unaspirated (and silent), but the native speakers of
French remain conscious of which is which, based on how the 'h' used to
be pronounced long ago.

This distinction can be found in the French version of an English poem:

Un petit d'un petit s'étonne aux Halles
Un petit d'un petit, ah, degrés te fallent

In this case "aux Halles" must be pronounced ['O wal] because the 'h' in
"les Halles" is aspirated (but silent). If it had been 'muet' then we
would have said [O zal].

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
2018-05-14 14:07:34 UTC
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Raw Message
It's....I mean, seriously funny...how there are so many "answers" to such a simple issue.
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-12 03:20:17 UTC
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On 5/11/18 7:09 PM, Dingbat wrote:
> Is 'an historic' correct?

I must grudgingly admit that it is.

> How is it pronounced?

With the speaker's usual pronunciations of "an" and "historic". Some of
the people who use "an" drop initial [h] in all words, and some don't.

> Is 'a historic' correct too?
...

Yes, and recommended by most of the people who recommend things.

--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2018-05-13 14:54:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 12/05/18 13:20, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 5/11/18 7:09 PM, Dingbat wrote:
>> Is 'an historic' correct?
>
> I must grudgingly admit that it is.
>
>> How is it pronounced?
>
> With the speaker's usual pronunciations of "an" and "historic". Some of
> the people who use "an" drop initial [h] in all words, and some don't.
>
>> Is 'a historic' correct too?
> ...
>
> Yes, and recommended by most of the people who recommend things.

Yes, but not by those of us who find "a historic" difficult to pronounce.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Dr. Jai Maharaj
2018-05-12 22:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article
<08c949b1-02d3-4994-9eaf-***@googlegroups.com>,
Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> (M. Ranjit Mathews) posted:
>
> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a
> historic' correct too?
>
> Jerusalem to Tel Aviv: an historic high-speed railway
>
> https://www.railway-technology.com/features/jerusalem-tel-aviv-historic-high-speed-railway/

"A historic" or "an historic"?

http://www.scribe.com.au/tip-w005.html

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti
http://bit.do/jaimaharaj
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
2018-05-13 16:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/12/2018 3:49 PM, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> In article
> <08c949b1-02d3-4994-9eaf-***@googlegroups.com>,
> Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> (M. Ranjit Mathews) posted:
>>
>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a
>> historic' correct too?
>>
>> Jerusalem to Tel Aviv: an historic high-speed railway
>>
>> https://www.railway-technology.com/features/jerusalem-tel-aviv-historic-high-speed-railway/
>
> "A historic" or "an historic"?
>
> http://www.scribe.com.au/tip-w005.html
>
> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
> Om Shanti
> http://bit.do/jaimaharaj
>

I normally use uh historic event, to avoid any confusion.
Dr. Jai Maharaj
2018-05-13 17:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <lmZJC.50025$***@fx26.iad>,
"Colonel Edmund J. Burke" <***@bigass-babes.com> posted:
>
> Dr. Jai Maharaj posted:
>>
>> In article
>> <08c949b1-02d3-***@googlegroups.com>,
>> Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> (M. Ranjit Mathews) posted:
>>>
>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a
>>> historic' correct too?
>>>
>>> Jerusalem to Tel Aviv: an historic high-speed railway
>>>
>>> https://www.railway-technology.com/features/jerusalem-tel-aviv-historic-high-speed-railway/
>>
>> "A historic" or "an historic"?
>>
>> http://www.scribe.com.au/tip-w005.html
>>
>> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
>> Om Shanti
>> http://bit.do/jaimaharaj
>>
>
> I normally use uh historic event, to avoid any confusion

Your historic thoughtfulness is appreciated.

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
2018-05-14 14:06:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/13/2018 10:09 AM, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> In article <lmZJC.50025$***@fx26.iad>,
> "Colonel Edmund J. Burke" <***@bigass-babes.com> posted:
>>
>> Dr. Jai Maharaj posted:
>>>
>>> In article
>>> <08c949b1-02d3-***@googlegroups.com>,
>>> Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> (M. Ranjit Mathews) posted:
>>>>
>>>> Is 'an historic'correct? How is it pronounced? Is 'a
>>>> historic' correct too?
>>>>
>>>> Jerusalem to Tel Aviv: an historic high-speed railway
>>>>
>>>> https://www.railway-technology.com/features/jerusalem-tel-aviv-historic-high-speed-railway/
>>>
>>> "A historic" or "an historic"?
>>>
>>> http://www.scribe.com.au/tip-w005.html
>>>
>>> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
>>> Om Shanti
>>> http://bit.do/jaimaharaj
>>>
>>
>> I normally use uh historic event, to avoid any confusion
>
> Your historic thoughtfulness is appreciated.
>
> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
> Om Shanti
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj
>

Thank you, doctor, and have a great day. 。◕‿‿◕。
Whiskers
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:
> Is 'an historic'correct?

Yes

> How is it pronounced?

The h is silent.

> Is 'a historic' correct too?

Yes, if the h is not silent.

> Jerusalem to Tel Aviv: an historic high-speed railway
> https://www.railway-technology.com/features/jerusalem-tel-aviv-historic-high-speed-railway/

Arguing about whether an initial h in a particular word or phrase
is 'correctly' silent or not, can lead to histrionics and even
fisticuffs.

--
^^^^^^^^^^
Whiskers
~~~~~~~~~~


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-05-13 14:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 13:42:00 +0100, Whiskers <***@operamail.com> wrote:

> Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:
>> Is 'an historic'correct?
>
> Yes
>
>> How is it pronounced?
>
> The h is silent.
>
>> Is 'a historic' correct too?
>
> Yes, if the h is not silent.
>
>> Jerusalem to Tel Aviv: an historic high-speed railway
>> https://www.railway-technology.com/features/jerusalem-tel-aviv-historic-high-speed-railway/
>
> Arguing about whether an initial h in a particular word or phrase
> is 'correctly' silent or not, can lead to histrionics and even
> fisticuffs.

This is fine is videoed, placed on porntube, and everyone's naked.

--
Why was the guitar teacher arrested?
For fingering A minor.
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
2018-05-18 15:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I think the H is silent, as is Twitzel.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-05-18 15:23:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 18 May 2018 16:03:54 +0100, Colonel Edmund J. Burke <***@bigass-babes.com> wrote:

> I think the H is silent, as is Twitzel.

Never heard of a Twitzel. There is a Twizel though:
http://www.twizelnz.com

--
Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!
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