What's in a Middle Name?

[s***@my-deja.com]

Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.

Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?

Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?

I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?

(I appreciate that Felipe Zapatero Rajoy is different, but that
is an other question entirely)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?
(I appreciate that Felipe Zapatero Rajoy is different, but that
is an other question entirely)

AmE: There's always only one first name. But where to draw the line between
"middle" and "last" depends on individual circumstances.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?
(I appreciate that Felipe Zapatero Rajoy is different, but that
is an other question entirely)

As far as I know, only the USA has the concept of "middle name". (And
"middle initial".) Everywhere else, there are no assumptions about how
many names you have.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?
(I appreciate that Felipe Zapatero Rajoy is different, but that
is an other question entirely)

As far as I know, only the USA has the concept of "middle name". (And
"middle initial".) Everywhere else, there are no assumptions about how
many names you have.

Thank you for a concise statemernt of what I was struggling to say.

Maybe there is one exception to your "everywhere else". I think
Switzerland requires children to have more than one given name.

[Urs Beeli]

I think Switzerland requires children to have more than one given name.

That is definitely not the case. Both are children have a single first/given
name.

However, there is a rule that if the first name does not clearly indicate
the gender of the child, a second name doing so is required.

For example: Andrea in German speaking Switzerland would be a girl but in
Italian speaking Switzerland it would be a boy (the Italian form of Andrew).
So these kids would need a second name (say Andrea Tamara in the first case
and Andrea Claudio in the second case).

Cheers
/urs

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Urs Beeli

I think Switzerland requires children to have more than one given name.

That is definitely not the case. Both are children have a single first/given
name.
However, there is a rule that if the first name does not clearly indicate
the gender of the child, a second name doing so is required.
For example: Andrea in German speaking Switzerland would be a girl but in
Italian speaking Switzerland it would be a boy (the Italian form of Andrew).
So these kids would need a second name (say Andrea Tamara in the first case
and Andrea Claudio in the second case).

The days of that rule might be numbered, if trends continue.

[Lewis]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?
(I appreciate that Felipe Zapatero Rajoy is different, but that
is an other question entirely)

As far as I know, only the USA has the concept of "middle name". (And
"middle initial".) Everywhere else, there are no assumptions about how
many names you have.

Unless you have "too many" or they are "too long" or your last name is
"Null".

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Lewis

Post by Peter Moylan
As far as I know, only the USA has the concept of "middle name". (And
"middle initial".) Everywhere else, there are no assumptions about how
many names you have.

Unless you have "too many" or they are "too long" or your last name is
"Null".

Long names can be a problem when filling out official forms, but to some
extent that's the fault of the form designer.

Too-short names can confuse some people. Last year I had trouble getting
a marriage certificate issued; for several weeks they told me that it
was delayed by a problem, but they wouldn't tell me what the problem
was. Eventually I got someone to admit that one of the witnesses had
only put down his first name. I then had to explain that he only had one
name.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis

Post by Peter Moylan
As far as I know, only the USA has the concept of "middle name". (And
"middle initial".) Everywhere else, there are no assumptions about how
many names you have.

Unless you have "too many" or they are "too long" or your last name is
"Null".

Long names can be a problem when filling out official forms, but to some
extent that's the fault of the form designer.
Too-short names can confuse some people. Last year I had trouble getting
a marriage certificate issued; for several weeks they told me that it
was delayed by a problem, but they wouldn't tell me what the problem
was.

That sounds like the UK Passport Office's "problem" with my wife's
attempt to renew her passport last August. Initially they just said
that there was a problem, but after a few days they let us into the
secret of what the problem was.

Post by Peter Moylan
Eventually I got someone to admit that one of the witnesses had
only put down his first name. I then had to explain that he only had one
name.

In my wife's case the source of the problem was that she has too many
names for the UK Passport Office's taste.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis

Post by Peter Moylan
As far as I know, only the USA has the concept of "middle name". (And
"middle initial".) Everywhere else, there are no assumptions about how
many names you have.

Unless you have "too many" or they are "too long" or your last name is
"Null".

Long names can be a problem when filling out official forms, but to some
extent that's the fault of the form designer.
Too-short names can confuse some people. Last year I had trouble getting
a marriage certificate issued; for several weeks they told me that it
was delayed by a problem, but they wouldn't tell me what the problem
was. Eventually I got someone to admit that one of the witnesses had
only put down his first name. I then had to explain that he only had one
name.

The Danish princess Elisabeth has many (ten) first names, but no last
name, and has - it is rumoured - consistently refused to specify
a last name when requested to by variuos immigration authorities;
she has not even accepted suggestions to put e.g. "Rex" on the form
to no end of problems for bureaucrats around the world.
Given that she is not only royal (indeed, the last person in the Danish
succession) but also wielding a diplomatic passport, she has of course
been let through anyway.

The Danish crown prince Frederik, who also has no last name, accepted
"Henriksen" (his father is called Henrik) on the papers when he studied
at Harvard.

/Anders.

[Cheryl]

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis

Post by Peter Moylan
As far as I know, only the USA has the concept of "middle name". (And
"middle initial".) Everywhere else, there are no assumptions about how
many names you have.

Unless you have "too many" or they are "too long" or your last name is
"Null".

Long names can be a problem when filling out official forms, but to some
extent that's the fault of the form designer.
Too-short names can confuse some people. Last year I had trouble getting
a marriage certificate issued; for several weeks they told me that it
was delayed by a problem, but they wouldn't tell me what the problem
was. Eventually I got someone to admit that one of the witnesses had
only put down his first name. I then had to explain that he only had one
name.

The Danish princess Elisabeth has many (ten) first names, but no last
name, and has - it is rumoured - consistently refused to specify
a last name when requested to by variuos immigration authorities;
she has not even accepted suggestions to put e.g. "Rex" on the form
to no end of problems for bureaucrats around the world.
Given that she is not only royal (indeed, the last person in the Danish
succession) but also wielding a diplomatic passport, she has of course
been let through anyway.
The Danish crown prince Frederik, who also has no last name, accepted
"Henriksen" (his father is called Henrik) on the papers when he studied
at Harvard.

I think there are other groups of people who do not use a last/family
name - I've seen interviews with people, not royals or celebrities, in
various parts of the world who are referred to in the write-up as "X,
who like many people in Y, uses only one name, said....". I guess the
journalist wants to be polite, understood by people who usually use more
than one name, and accurate.

I don't know what such people do when travelling outside their country.
I'd expect their travel documents to contain their single name, as used
in their home country, which might confuse border authorities in other
countries. Or maybe, like Prince Frederik, they adopt surnames of
convenience.

[Peter Young]

[snip]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Anders D. Nygaard
The Danish crown prince Frederik, who also has no last name, accepted
"Henriksen" (his father is called Henrik) on the papers when he studied
at Harvard.

I think there are other groups of people who do not use a last/family
name - I've seen interviews with people, not royals or celebrities, in
various parts of the world who are referred to in the write-up as "X,
who like many people in Y, uses only one name, said....". I guess the
journalist wants to be polite, understood by people who usually use more
than one name, and accurate.

Ethiopians have no concept of family names. They have a given name
followed by their father's name. Tafari Makonnen is Tafari, son of
Makonnen. His daughter would be Tsehai Tafari and so on. Orthodox
Christians are also given a baptismal name by the Priest at their
Christening. So when the above Tafari, having been made Ras (Duke)
eventually became Emperor he ruled under his baptismal name Haile
Selassie. Incidentally, though that's two words, it's one name, and
this formation is not unusual. A person I knew well when I lived there
was called Haile Mariam, all one name.

Post by Cheryl
I don't know what such people do when travelling outside their country.
I'd expect their travel documents to contain their single name, as used
in their home country, which might confuse border authorities in other
countries. Or maybe, like Prince Frederik, they adopt surnames of
convenience.

I think Ethiopians use the First Name, Surname form when they travel
abroad, but this misrepresents their naming system.

Peter.

[John Varela]

Post by Cheryl
I think there are other groups of people who do not use a last/family
name - I've seen interviews with people, not royals or celebrities, in
various parts of the world who are referred to in the write-up as "X,
who like many people in Y, uses only one name, said....". I guess the
journalist wants to be polite, understood by people who usually use more
than one name, and accurate.
I don't know what such people do when travelling outside their country.
I'd expect their travel documents to contain their single name, as used
in their home country, which might confuse border authorities in other
countries. Or maybe, like Prince Frederik, they adopt surnames of
convenience.

I've posted this here once or twice already, but it's still a
favorite of mine and some here will not have seen it before. A
friend from Madras came to the US and had a similar experience when
registering for grad school. He wound up with two names achieved by
splitting in half an honorific given to his grandfather. That was in
the 1950s.

Subject: First name, last name.

How I came to be who I am.

I was not who I am. I was myself, my own self. That is, until I
came
to the U.S. When I came here to join the University, I went to
the
Registration office. There was an elderly woman with big round
eye-glasses, who looked at me through the gap between the frame
and
her eyebrows. I explained that I just came from India and I was
going to join the Chemistry Department. This is what happened
next.

"Your name?"

"Dinesh. "

"How do you spell it?"

"D-I-N...."

"Slow, slow. T?"

"No, D."

"Is that T as in Tom, or D as in Dennis?"

"No, not Dennis, my name is Dinesh."

"I know that. I am asking you, is that T as in Tom, or D as
in ... as in Detroit?"

"I don't know who Tom is, and I haven't been to Detroit. I just
came
from Madras."

"OK, OK, I know that. Is that T-I- or D-I- ?"

"D. D-I-. D-I-N-E-S-H."

"Is that your last name or first name?"

"Uh? Dinesh is my name."

"OK. What is your Last name?"

"That is my first and last name. Dinesh."

"Then, is your name Dinesh Dinesh?"

"NO. My name is Dinesh."

"But what is your LAST NAME? I am ASKING YOU ABOUT YOUR LAST
NAME."

"I told you, Dinesh. I always had the same name, from birth till
now. DINESH. That's my name."

"OK, what is your family name?"

"Family? Family name? My family doesn't have a name."

"What do the neighbors call you?"

"Dinesh."

"Not you. Your whole family. What do they call your family?"

"Beedida bhat'rr."

"So, that is your family name. Do you understand? How do you
spell
that?"

"Spell what?"

"B. D. whatever you said, what your neighbors call your family."

"Oh, that ... Beedida bhat'rr. What do you need that for? It only
means 'the brahmin who makes beedis.'"

"What are B-Ds?"

"Not B-D. Beedi, is like a cigarette, you see, they roll the
tobacco
in a leaf and tie a thread around it. 25 in a kattu."

"25 in a what?"

"Kattu, or katta, whatever. Like a bunch, you see. If there is
even
one less or one more, my father could always tell without
counting.
He then taught me how to do it."

"I am not worried about your 'cutter' or whatever.
What-is-your-last
-name?"

"I told you, Dinesh."

"OK, OK, I don't want to go over this again. What is common to
the
names of all the members of your family?"

They are all in Sanskrit. My first sister is Suneetha, the second
sister is Sumathi ..."

"Not about the language. When you write your name, and your
sister
writes her name, what do you two have in common?"

"We have the same handwriting. Even my father can't tell our
handwritings apart."

"Blast it! What is your father's name?"

"G. K. Nettar"

"What does G. K. stand for7"

"His name, Gopala Krishna."

"Then what is Nettar?"

"That is our house name."

"House name? Aha, does every one at your house have this name?"

"It is not our name. It is the name of our house. Strictly
speaking,
it should be Honnadka. But my father was too lazy to change it. My
father was born in Honnadka, but, see, my grandfather was born in
Nettar."

"What was his name?"

"I told you, G. K. Nettar."

"Your grandfather was also called G. K. whatever?"

"No. That is my father."

"Then what is your grandfather's name?"

"Govinda Bhat. See, my relatives still call me Mangalore Govinda.
Because it is a tradition to name the first son after his
grandfather. All the brothers of my father have done this. So, we
have Honnadka Govinda, Jogibettu Govinda, Kanchodu Govinda, and
I am Mangalore Govinda."

"So, then, your name is Mangalore Govinda, not Dinesh."

"My name is Dinesh, Mangalore Govinda is how my relatives call me.
That is not my name."

"What do they call your sister?"

"Ammanni. "

"What? You said her name is Sooneetha."

"Yes, that is her name, Suneetha, but we call her Ammanni."

"Is that her nickname?"

"No. She doesn't have a nickname. Only our neighbor's daughter
has a
nickname. She is called 'Soote'. She is very active. That's why."

"What about your brother?"

"I have no brothers. But then, you can count all those Govindas as
my
brothers too. See, they are really kind of my brothers."

"OK, what are their names?"

"The oldest one, he is my big brother. He is called GovindANNA."

"Govind Anna? Then Anna is his last name."

"No, ANNA, not anna. ANNA means big brother."

"What is his NAME?"

"His name is Govinda Bhat."

"Then your last name is But."

"Not but, Bhat, B-H-A-T. But that's not his name, you see."

"If that's not his name, what is it? Why does he have it in his
name?"

"Bhat simply means he is a brahmin. He might as well write Rao,
like
his father does, or Sharma, like my father's second brother does."

"How does he write his name in official papers?"

"Nettar Govinda Bhat. That's how he writes it."

"How does his father write it?"

"Nettar Venkata Subba Rao."

"Aha, I can see now. Your father is G. K. Nettar, his brother is
Nettar something Rao... your last name is then Nettar. Aha, I got
it."

"But Nettar is not the last name. It is the house name."

"I don't care. Tell me one last time, what is YOUR last name?"

"But I told you, my last name is the same as my first name, my
only
name, Dinesh."

"Then, I am going to write Nettar here. I don't care if it is your
house name, your grandfather's name, your dog's name, whatever. It
is
your last name. How do you spell it? N-E-..,"

"N-E-T-T-A-R."

"N-E-T-T-? Is that T as in Tom or D as in Dennis?"

"My name is Dinesh, not Dennis."

"AARRGGHHHHH. Do we have to go through this again? Here, write it
down."

"That's it. From now on, you are Dinesh Nettar, Dinesh is your
first
name, and Nettar is your last name. OK?"

"..."

[Richard Heathfield]

On 16/01/17 19:21, John Varela wrote:
<snip>

Post by John Varela
I've posted this here once or twice already, but it's still a
favorite of mine and some here will not have seen it before. A
friend from Madras came to the US and had a similar experience when
registering for grad school. He wound up with two names achieved by
splitting in half an honorific given to his grandfather.

If I am reading that correctly, the honorific was a house name (like
"Dunromin", maybe, in the UK).

So I suppose that, in a parallel role-reversed universe in which I had
no surname but then emigrated to a country where one was expected, I
would have ended up as Richard Dunro.

Not too shabby, I suppose. But it would still be a fiction.

Our computer systems have much to learn about overseas naming customs.

And, come to think of it, local naming customs. About 30 years ago, I
was part of an admin team preparing for Billy Graham's visit to
Sheffield, and we were faced with the problem of a vicar whose titles,
name, and degrees came to something like double the 32 characters we had
available, and we had to find a way to crunch it down without
inadvertently causing offence. In the end, I phoned him up, explained
the problem, and asked his advice. He turned out to be a decent cove,
and he said he didn't mind how we abbreviated him as long as it didn't
spell anything that might make his housekeeper laugh.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

[ ... ]
I think there are other groups of people who do not use a last/family
name - I've seen interviews with people, not royals or celebrities, in
various parts of the world who are referred to in the write-up as "X,
who like many people in Y, uses only one name, said....". I guess the
journalist wants to be polite, understood by people who usually use
more than one name, and accurate.
I don't know what such people do when travelling outside their country.
I'd expect their travel documents to contain their single name, as used
in their home country, which might confuse border authorities in other
countries. Or maybe, like Prince Frederik, they adopt surnames of
convenience.

I think it's fairly common in South Asia for people to have just one
name. There is a famous spectroscopist called Govindjee. He was
originally from Allahabad, India. All of his many publications show
just the one name.

[Quinn C]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I think it's fairly common in South Asia for people to have just one
name. There is a famous spectroscopist called Govindjee. He was
originally from Allahabad, India. All of his many publications show
just the one name.

Is a certain word game named after him, or a name sake?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I think it's fairly common in South Asia for people to have just one
name. There is a famous spectroscopist called Govindjee. He was
originally from Allahabad, India. All of his many publications show
just the one name.

Is a certain word game named after him, or a name sake?

You'd have to ask Daniel. Nobody else knows.

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by Anders D. Nygaard
The Danish crown prince Frederik, who also has no last name, accepted
"Henriksen" (his father is called Henrik) on the papers when he studied
at Harvard.

I suppose the house name, Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-GlÃŒcksburg,
would have been too long.

-GAWollman

[Harrison Hill]

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or

Yes. In my BrE "First Name" is replacing "Christian Name".

Post by s***@my-deja.com
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?

Agreed SW London.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
(I appreciate that Felipe Zapatero Rajoy is different, but that
is an other question entirely)

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Harrison Hill

Post by s***@my-deja.com
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?

Agreed SW London.

I don't agree.
The number of forenames seems to be entirely up to the parents and if
there is a "custom" or "pattern" I've never encountered it (other than
that the number should be non-zero).
I only have a single forename and that doesn't seem at all unusual to me.

[HVS]

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?

AFAIK - and as a possessor of three given names - it's "first name + two
middle names" in both Canada and England.

It can be a pain when forms don't leave enough space for additional names.
Mine aren't particularly long - 3 names, taking up 21 characters including
spaces - but I often run out of space on official forms. (Having a two-part
surname complicates things further; I'm quite aware that I have way more
names than anyone could possibly need.)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by HVS

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?

AFAIK - and as a possessor of three given names - it's "first name + two
middle names" in both Canada and England.
It can be a pain when forms don't leave enough space for additional names.
Mine aren't particularly long - 3 names, taking up 21 characters including
spaces - but I often run out of space on official forms.

Not just with names. I had to complete a form yesterday for a bank in
the Netherlands that had a space for giving my IBAN that wasn't wide
enough for more than about one-third of the number.

Post by HVS
(Having a two-part
surname complicates things further; I'm quite aware that I have way more
names than anyone could possibly need.)

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by HVS

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?

AFAIK - and as a possessor of three given names - it's "first name + two
middle names" in both Canada and England.

...

In America, too. But in England, what about Robert Hanbury Brown and
Helena Bonham Carter?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 09:39:31 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by HVS

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?

AFAIK - and as a possessor of three given names - it's "first name + two
middle names" in both Canada and England.

...
In America, too. But in England, what about Robert Hanbury Brown and
Helena Bonham Carter?

In the latter case "Bonham Carter" appears to be a family name, a
surname.

Her father was Raymond Bonham Carter and her grandfather Maurice Bonham
Carter. Her mother was Elena (née Propper de Callejón) whose mother was
Hélène Fould-Springer.

At least the last one has a hyphen!

(From Wikip.)

[Joe Fineman]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 09:39:31 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
In America, too. But in England, what about Robert Hanbury Brown and
Helena Bonham Carter?

In the latter case "Bonham Carter" appears to be a family name, a
surname.
Her father was Raymond Bonham Carter and her grandfather Maurice Bonham
Carter. Her mother was Elena (née Propper de Callejón) whose mother was
Hélène Fould-Springer.
At least the last one has a hyphen!

"Hanbury Brown", likewise, is a double-barreled surname. Copyeditors
have to be careful about such things. The famous experiment by Hanbury
Brown and Twiss is properly called (despite Wikipedia) the Hanbury
Brown--Twiss experiment (en dash, no hyphens).

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Joe Fineman

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 09:39:31 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
In America, too. But in England, what about Robert Hanbury Brown and
Helena Bonham Carter?

In the latter case "Bonham Carter" appears to be a family name, a
surname.
Her father was Raymond Bonham Carter and her grandfather Maurice Bonham
Carter. Her mother was Elena (née Propper de Callejón) whose mother was
Hélène Fould-Springer.
At least the last one has a hyphen!

"Hanbury Brown", likewise, is a double-barreled surname. Copyeditors
have to be careful about such things. The famous experiment by Hanbury
Brown and Twiss is properly called (despite Wikipedia) the Hanbury
Brown--Twiss experiment (en dash, no hyphens).

There's a lot to be said for "the experiment of Hanbury Brown and Twiss".

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 09:39:31 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by HVS

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?

AFAIK - and as a possessor of three given names - it's "first name + two
middle names" in both Canada and England.

...
In America, too. But in England, what about Robert Hanbury Brown and
Helena Bonham Carter?

In the latter case "Bonham Carter" appears to be a family name, a
surname.

Exactly, so John Jack Brown Green might not have a first name + two
middle names.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Her father was Raymond Bonham Carter and her grandfather Maurice Bonham
Carter. Her mother was Elena (née Propper de Callejón) whose mother was
Hélène Fould-Springer.
At least the last one has a hyphen!

:-)

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
(From Wikip.)

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 09:39:31 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by HVS

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?

AFAIK - and as a possessor of three given names - it's "first name + two
middle names" in both Canada and England.

...
In America, too. But in England, what about Robert Hanbury Brown and
Helena Bonham Carter?

In the latter case "Bonham Carter" appears to be a family name, a
surname.

Exactly, so John Jack Brown Green might not have a first name + two
middle names.

If I had parsed my name like that, the name I am known by (Yusuf)
would not appear in my first name. So I parse it as if my first
name was composed of two names.

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Her father was Raymond Bonham Carter and her grandfather Maurice Bonham
Carter. Her mother was Elena (née Propper de Callejón) whose mother was
Hélène Fould-Springer.
At least the last one has a hyphen!

:-)

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
(From Wikip.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Dr. HotSalt]

Post by HVS

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?

AFAIK - and as a possessor of three given names - it's "first name + two
middle names" in both Canada and England.

Same in the U. S., generally.

Post by HVS
It can be a pain when forms don't leave enough space for additional names.
Mine aren't particularly long - 3 names, taking up 21 characters including
spaces - but I often run out of space on official forms. (Having a two-part
surname complicates things further; I'm quite aware that I have way more
names than anyone could possibly need.)

I have only three names which also run to 21 characters including spaces. More than once I've run out of room and had to write the last letter or two of my surname literally outside the boxes, often annoying the hell out of the form-takers.

The first time I recall was when I had to change schools in what's now called Middle School (4th grade). The lady I gave the form to seemed to take it as a personal affront, as though I was pranking her, and tried to tell me I had misspelled my own last name. It does have an unconventional but not completely unknown spelling. Fortunately I had in hand copies of my parent's birth certificates (required at the time) so she grumbled but hand-annotated the form to indicate that it was correct. That was in 1961.

For contrast, my father had NMI and his first name, on his birth certificate, was Bob.

She boggled a bit, but since it was an official form she had no real grounds to object.

If there is an afterlife, I'd like the opportunity to meet whoever decided on how many characters a name "ought" to take up, but I'd probably go to Hell for "correcting" them.


Dr. HotSalt

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.

That's me in th US.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

In Turkey we have name(s) and a family name (instituted 1934/5)

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For example would Alpha Bravo Delta Echo be considered as
Alpha Echo with two middle names
or
Alpha Bravo Echo with one middle name?

I parse as if I had a two component first name and middle name
and a family name (shared with my parents). The first component
of my name is not the name I am known by (not unusual in Turkey),
which causes some confusion in the US. Sometimes I write
S. Yusuf B. Gürsey . But these are for official purposes.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Would John Jack Brown Green be
John GREEN with two middle names
or
John Jack GREEN with one middle name?
I would say that the UK pattern would be to have one first
and two middle names, but is the custom different where you are?
(I appreciate that Felipe Zapatero Rajoy is different, but that
is an other question entirely)

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

That depends entirely on the person whose name it is.

I used to work for a woman named "Mary Ann". That's two tokens, one
given name. If she had had a middle name (I don't think she did) that
would have been another token token.

You could in fact have multi-token names in every position, if you're
one of those people who has a double-barreled family name that's
written open rather than hyphenated: {A B} {C D} {E F} -- consider the
case where {C D} is actually something like "St. John".

So, ultimately, this is not something that can be automated. The only
way to get it right is to ask the bearer (or a family member) for the
precise division. (Keeping in mind that any of the positions may in
fact be empty, and that correctly parsing the name still doesn't tell
you the correct form of address.)

-GAWollman

[John Varela]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

That depends entirely on the person whose name it is.
I used to work for a woman named "Mary Ann". That's two tokens, one
given name. If she had had a middle name (I don't think she did) that
would have been another token token.

To me, Mary was a first name and Ann was a middle name. WIWAL in the
South it was commonplace for little girls to use both names like
that. Mary Jane, Betty Sue, Sally Lou, etc. Usually, by adulthood,
the middle name was dropped but some women kept the middle name into
adulthood.

It was also common for married women to replace the middle name with
the birth surname. Thus when Mary Sue Smith married John Doe, she
became Mary Smith Doe. Any number of women in my family, including
my wife (who is from Illinois), followed this pattern. Nothing in
the above would have precluded Mary Sue Smith from becoming Mary Sue
Smith Doe.

Post by Garrett Wollman
You could in fact have multi-token names in every position, if you're
one of those people who has a double-barreled family name that's
written open rather than hyphenated: {A B} {C D} {E F} -- consider the
case where {C D} is actually something like "St. John".
So, ultimately, this is not something that can be automated.

My grandmother was María Teresa Fernández de Villavicencio Saenz de
Varanda viuda de Varela. Let a machine try to parse that one. She
also had three or four more middle names given to her at baptism
that were not part of her legal name.

Post by Garrett Wollman
The only
way to get it right is to ask the bearer (or a family member) for the
precise division. (Keeping in mind that any of the positions may in
fact be empty, and that correctly parsing the name still doesn't tell
you the correct form of address.)

[Lewis]

Post by John Varela

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

That depends entirely on the person whose name it is.
I used to work for a woman named "Mary Ann". That's two tokens, one
given name. If she had had a middle name (I don't think she did) that
would have been another token token.

To me, Mary was a first name and Ann was a middle name. WIWAL in the
South it was commonplace for little girls to use both names like
that. Mary Jane, Betty Sue, Sally Lou, etc. Usually, by adulthood,
the middle name was dropped but some women kept the middle name into
adulthood.

Men too. Billy Ray Cyrus, Joe Bob Briggs, and many other examples.

One of my aunts has always gone by her first and middle names, and three
of my cousin's wives, and one of my cousins user first and middle names.
Basically, if the first name is common (Mary, Ann, Sarah) chances are
very good it is paired with a middle name.

Post by John Varela
It was also common for married women to replace the middle name with
the birth surname. Thus when Mary Sue Smith married John Doe, she
became Mary Smith Doe. Any number of women in my family, including
my wife (who is from Illinois), followed this pattern. Nothing in
the above would have precluded Mary Sue Smith from becoming Mary Sue
Smith Doe.

I'm always a little surprised when women DON'T do this, but neither of
my sisters-in-law did.<1>

<1> Is your brother-in-law's wife your sister in law, or just your
spouse's sister-in-law?

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Lewis

Post by John Varela

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

That depends entirely on the person whose name it is.
I used to work for a woman named "Mary Ann". That's two tokens, one
given name. If she had had a middle name (I don't think she did) that
would have been another token token.

To me, Mary was a first name and Ann was a middle name. WIWAL in the
South it was commonplace for little girls to use both names like
that. Mary Jane, Betty Sue, Sally Lou, etc. Usually, by adulthood,
the middle name was dropped but some women kept the middle name into
adulthood.

Men too. Billy Ray Cyrus, Joe Bob Briggs, and many other examples.

...

For some reason, in my mind "Mary Ann" is one name but "Jim Bob" is two.
I imagine a wedding going like "Do you, James, take this woman...? Do
you, Mary Ann, take this man...?" But when Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue got
married, if they did, would the minister have said, "Do you, Roberta
Susan...?"

I can't claim any expertise, though, since I can think of exactly one
man I've known who went by a double nickname like that (Johnny Ray).

[GordonD]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by John Varela

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

That depends entirely on the person whose name it is.
I used to work for a woman named "Mary Ann". That's two tokens, one
given name. If she had had a middle name (I don't think she did) that
would have been another token token.

To me, Mary was a first name and Ann was a middle name. WIWAL in the
South it was commonplace for little girls to use both names like
that. Mary Jane, Betty Sue, Sally Lou, etc. Usually, by adulthood,
the middle name was dropped but some women kept the middle name into
adulthood.

Men too. Billy Ray Cyrus, Joe Bob Briggs, and many other examples.

...
For some reason, in my mind "Mary Ann" is one name but "Jim Bob" is two.
I imagine a wedding going like "Do you, James, take this woman...? Do
you, Mary Ann, take this man...?" But when Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue got
married, if they did, would the minister have said, "Do you, Roberta
Susan...?"

They didn't get married. Billy Joe jumped off the Tallahatchie Bridge.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by GordonD

Post by Jerry Friedman
For some reason, in my mind "Mary Ann" is one name but "Jim Bob" is two.
I imagine a wedding going like "Do you, James, take this woman...? Do
you, Mary Ann, take this man...?" But when Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue got
married, if they did, would the minister have said, "Do you, Roberta
Susan...?"

They didn't get married. Billy Joe jumped off the Tallahatchie Bridge.

He should have just taken the money and run.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Friedman
For some reason, in my mind "Mary Ann" is one name but "Jim Bob" is two.
I imagine a wedding going like "Do you, James, take this woman...? Do
you, Mary Ann, take this man...?" But when Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue got
married, if they did, would the minister have said, "Do you, Roberta
Susan...?"
I can't claim any expertise, though, since I can think of exactly one
man I've known who went by a double nickname like that (Johnny Ray).

The Slavic and theoretical linguist Bill J. Darden (that's how he signs his
work) gets very annoyed when editors try to change it to William J. His birth
name is Billy-Joe Darden, and he has the Appalachian twang to prove it.

[Quinn C]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by John Varela

Post by Garrett Wollman
I used to work for a woman named "Mary Ann". That's two tokens, one
given name. If she had had a middle name (I don't think she did) that
would have been another token token.

To me, Mary was a first name and Ann was a middle name. WIWAL in the
South it was commonplace for little girls to use both names like
that. Mary Jane, Betty Sue, Sally Lou, etc. Usually, by adulthood,
the middle name was dropped but some women kept the middle name into
adulthood.

Men too. Billy Ray Cyrus, Joe Bob Briggs, and many other examples.

...
For some reason, in my mind "Mary Ann" is one name but "Jim Bob" is two.
I imagine a wedding going like "Do you, James, take this woman...? Do
you, Mary Ann, take this man...?" But when Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue got
married, if they did, would the minister have said, "Do you, Roberta
Susan...?"
I can't claim any expertise, though, since I can think of exactly one
man I've known who went by a double nickname like that (Johnny Ray).

There are a number of conventional doubles in German, for both men
and women, and the spelling varies. A man could be named
"Karlheinz", "Karl-Heinz" or "Karl Heinz". Whichever the spelling,
the person is likely to use the complete two parts, but may also
decide to use just either of the two.

The German counterpart of "Mary Ann" would be "Anna Maria" -
again, in three spellings.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by Quinn C
[...]
There are a number of conventional doubles in German, for both men
and women, and the spelling varies. A man could be named
"Karlheinz", "Karl-Heinz" or "Karl Heinz". Whichever the spelling,
the person is likely to use the complete two parts, but may also
decide to use just either of the two.
The German counterpart of "Mary Ann" would be "Anna Maria" -
again, in three spellings.

In Denmark, an analogy could be Majbritt, where the first part
has at least three variations (Maj, May and Mai), and the second
at least two (one or two t's) giving at least eighteen spelling
variations of what is essentially the same name, and with identical
pronunciation.

/Anders.

[Cheryl]

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Quinn C
[...]
There are a number of conventional doubles in German, for both men
and women, and the spelling varies. A man could be named
"Karlheinz", "Karl-Heinz" or "Karl Heinz". Whichever the spelling,
the person is likely to use the complete two parts, but may also
decide to use just either of the two.
The German counterpart of "Mary Ann" would be "Anna Maria" -
again, in three spellings.

In Denmark, an analogy could be Majbritt, where the first part
has at least three variations (Maj, May and Mai), and the second
at least two (one or two t's) giving at least eighteen spelling
variations of what is essentially the same name, and with identical
pronunciation.

This is an increasing problem in English-speaking countries, with more
and more parents wanting unique names for their children, and sometimes
choosing names that are pronounced the same way as better-known ones,
but spelled differently. My own name is a simple example - it's often
spelled "Sheryl" (as well as some other variations). And yes, I
eventually discovered that "Cheryl" is not usually pronounced like
"Sheryl" in the UK; for a while, I thought people on that side of the
Atlantic didn't know how to pronounce it, not that they had a different
pronunciation.

Some examples below - there are lots more.

http://www.sheknows.com/parenting/articles/1023047/unique-spellings-for-common-baby-names
http://preview.tinyurl.com/jp3fcxj


Baby names with a modern flair

Baby names with clever spellings

Are you looking for a baby name that is a little different? Make your
baby's name less traditional with a modern new spelling.

One look at the Social Security Administration's Top 1,000 Baby Names
indicates that many parents opt for trendy, alternative spellings. All
of these spelling variations listed below appeared on the most recent
SSA list. In each case, we've listed the spelling that is currently most
popular.

Change C to K, or vice-versa

The letters C, K, CH and CK are generally interchangeable. A traditional
name, such as Christopher, becomes more modern when the hard CH sound is
changed to just a C (Cristopher) or a K (Kristopher).

Within the top 1,000 names for boys, some C and K names boast as many as
seven different spellings!

Cameron: Camren, Camron, Camryn, Kameron, Kamron and Kamryn.
Colton: Colten, Kolten, Kolton
Connor: Conner, Conor, Konner, Konner
Kason: Casen, Cason, Cayson, Kasen, Kaysen, Kayson

The same holds true for the names we love for baby girls:

Carly: Carlee, Carleigh, Carley, Carlie, Karlee, Karlie
Kalyn: Cailyn, Kaelyn, Kaelynn, Kailyn, Kailynn, Kaylen, Kaylyn,
Kaylynn
Kailey: Caylee, Kailee, Kaleigh, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Kaylie
Katelyn: Caitlyn, Caitlin, Kaitlin, Kaitlyn, Katelynn


And so on.,

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Quinn C
There are a number of conventional doubles in German, for both men
and women, and the spelling varies. A man could be named
"Karlheinz", "Karl-Heinz" or "Karl Heinz". Whichever the spelling,
the person is likely to use the complete two parts, but may also
decide to use just either of the two.
The German counterpart of "Mary Ann" would be "Anna Maria" -
again, in three spellings.

In Denmark, an analogy could be Majbritt, where the first part
has at least three variations (Maj, May and Mai), and the second
at least two (one or two t's) giving at least eighteen spelling
variations of what is essentially the same name, and with identical
pronunciation.

This is an increasing problem in English-speaking countries, with more
and more parents wanting unique names for their children, and sometimes
choosing names that are pronounced the same way as better-known ones,
but spelled differently. My own name is a simple example - it's often
spelled "Sheryl" (as well as some other variations). And yes, I
eventually discovered that "Cheryl" is not usually pronounced like
"Sheryl" in the UK; for a while, I thought people on that side of the
Atlantic didn't know how to pronounce it, not that they had a different
pronunciation.
Some examples below - there are lots more.
http://www.sheknows.com/parenting/articles/1023047/unique-spellings-for-common-baby-names
http://preview.tinyurl.com/jp3fcxj
Baby names with a modern flair
Baby names with clever spellings
Are you looking for a baby name that is a little different? Make your
baby's name less traditional with a modern new spelling.
One look at the Social Security Administration's Top 1,000 Baby Names
indicates that many parents opt for trendy, alternative spellings. All
of these spelling variations listed below appeared on the most recent
SSA list. In each case, we've listed the spelling that is currently most
popular.
Change C to K, or vice-versa
The letters C, K, CH and CK are generally interchangeable. A traditional
name, such as Christopher, becomes more modern when the hard CH sound is
changed to just a C (Cristopher) or a K (Kristopher).
Within the top 1,000 names for boys, some C and K names boast as many as
seven different spellings!
Cameron: Camren, Camron, Camryn, Kameron, Kamron and Kamryn.
Colton: Colten, Kolten, Kolton
Connor: Conner, Conor, Konner, Konner
Kason: Casen, Cason, Cayson, Kasen, Kaysen, Kayson
Carly: Carlee, Carleigh, Carley, Carlie, Karlee, Karlie
Kalyn: Cailyn, Kaelyn, Kaelynn, Kailyn, Kailynn, Kaylen, Kaylyn,
Kaylynn
Kailey: Caylee, Kailee, Kaleigh, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Kaylie
Katelyn: Caitlyn, Caitlin, Kaitlin, Kaitlyn, Katelynn
And so on.,

I understand that some countries -- Germany and Iceland among them, but
maybe many more -- have a list of names that may be used officially.
Whether that applies to "middle names" I don't know.

Perce

[Quinn C]

Post by Percival P. Cassidy

Post by Cheryl

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Quinn C
There are a number of conventional doubles in German, for both men
and women, and the spelling varies. A man could be named
"Karlheinz", "Karl-Heinz" or "Karl Heinz". Whichever the spelling,
the person is likely to use the complete two parts, but may also
decide to use just either of the two.
The German counterpart of "Mary Ann" would be "Anna Maria" -
again, in three spellings.

In Denmark, an analogy could be Majbritt, where the first part
has at least three variations (Maj, May and Mai), and the second
at least two (one or two t's) giving at least eighteen spelling
variations of what is essentially the same name, and with identical
pronunciation.

This is an increasing problem in English-speaking countries, with more
and more parents wanting unique names for their children, and sometimes
choosing names that are pronounced the same way as better-known ones,
but spelled differently. My own name is a simple example - it's often
spelled "Sheryl" (as well as some other variations). And yes, I
eventually discovered that "Cheryl" is not usually pronounced like
"Sheryl" in the UK; for a while, I thought people on that side of the
Atlantic didn't know how to pronounce it, not that they had a different
pronunciation.
Some examples below - there are lots more.
http://www.sheknows.com/parenting/articles/1023047/unique-spellings-for-common-baby-names
http://preview.tinyurl.com/jp3fcxj
Baby names with a modern flair
Baby names with clever spellings
Are you looking for a baby name that is a little different? Make your
baby's name less traditional with a modern new spelling.
One look at the Social Security Administration's Top 1,000 Baby Names
indicates that many parents opt for trendy, alternative spellings. All
of these spelling variations listed below appeared on the most recent
SSA list. In each case, we've listed the spelling that is currently most
popular.
Change C to K, or vice-versa
The letters C, K, CH and CK are generally interchangeable. A traditional
name, such as Christopher, becomes more modern when the hard CH sound is
changed to just a C (Cristopher) or a K (Kristopher).
Within the top 1,000 names for boys, some C and K names boast as many as
seven different spellings!
Cameron: Camren, Camron, Camryn, Kameron, Kamron and Kamryn.
Colton: Colten, Kolten, Kolton
Connor: Conner, Conor, Konner, Konner
Kason: Casen, Cason, Cayson, Kasen, Kaysen, Kayson
Carly: Carlee, Carleigh, Carley, Carlie, Karlee, Karlie
Kalyn: Cailyn, Kaelyn, Kaelynn, Kailyn, Kailynn, Kaylen, Kaylyn,
Kaylynn
Kailey: Caylee, Kailee, Kaleigh, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Kaylie
Katelyn: Caitlyn, Caitlin, Kaitlin, Kaitlyn, Katelynn
And so on.,

I understand that some countries -- Germany and Iceland among them, but
maybe many more -- have a list of names that may be used officially.
Whether that applies to "middle names" I don't know.

I don't know why often Germany comes up in this argument; that's a
myth. I'll explain.

Iceland definitely has a list, and I believe France and/or Spain
used to have one, and maybe all the names on it were "Christian".
A few years ago, I read of an Icelandic girl whose name wasn't
accepted, so she got the preliminary name "girl", and as her
mother continues fighting in court over it, she entered school
with that non-name name.

Here:
<http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/01/03/why-an-icelandic-girl-named-light-breeze-isnt-legally-allowed-to-use-her-own-name/>

In Germany, each name has to be OKed by the registrar, but if the
parents disagree, they can go to court over it, and parents have
won many of those cases.

Besides rejecting names that are considered bad for the child
(which, I believe, could be a reason to reject a name in many
other countries, too), Germany has two requirements:

1. that the name "is a name" (and not just some word or sequence
of sounds)

2. that it indicates the sex of the baby

1. is usually easy to "prove" in the age of the Internet, as it's
not required to be a "German" name in any sense.

2. I can't imagine they can hold that up much longer.

If at least one parent has a different cultural background, the
rules weren't applied in the same strictness. Also not for middle
names, I believe.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Percival P. Cassidy

Post by Cheryl

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Quinn C
There are a number of conventional doubles in German, for both men
and women, and the spelling varies. A man could be named
"Karlheinz", "Karl-Heinz" or "Karl Heinz". Whichever the spelling,
the person is likely to use the complete two parts, but may also
decide to use just either of the two.
The German counterpart of "Mary Ann" would be "Anna Maria" -
again, in three spellings.

In Denmark, an analogy could be Majbritt, where the first part
has at least three variations (Maj, May and Mai), and the second
at least two (one or two t's) giving at least eighteen spelling
variations of what is essentially the same name, and with identical
pronunciation.

This is an increasing problem in English-speaking countries, with more
and more parents wanting unique names for their children, and sometimes
choosing names that are pronounced the same way as better-known ones,
but spelled differently. My own name is a simple example - it's often
spelled "Sheryl" (as well as some other variations). And yes, I
eventually discovered that "Cheryl" is not usually pronounced like
"Sheryl" in the UK; for a while, I thought people on that side of the
Atlantic didn't know how to pronounce it, not that they had a different
pronunciation.
Some examples below - there are lots more.
http://www.sheknows.com/parenting/articles/1023047/unique-spellings-for-common-baby-names
http://preview.tinyurl.com/jp3fcxj
Baby names with a modern flair
Baby names with clever spellings
Are you looking for a baby name that is a little different? Make your
baby's name less traditional with a modern new spelling.
One look at the Social Security Administration's Top 1,000 Baby Names
indicates that many parents opt for trendy, alternative spellings. All
of these spelling variations listed below appeared on the most recent
SSA list. In each case, we've listed the spelling that is currently most
popular.
Change C to K, or vice-versa
The letters C, K, CH and CK are generally interchangeable. A traditional
name, such as Christopher, becomes more modern when the hard CH sound is
changed to just a C (Cristopher) or a K (Kristopher).
Within the top 1,000 names for boys, some C and K names boast as many as
seven different spellings!
Cameron: Camren, Camron, Camryn, Kameron, Kamron and Kamryn.
Colton: Colten, Kolten, Kolton
Connor: Conner, Conor, Konner, Konner
Kason: Casen, Cason, Cayson, Kasen, Kaysen, Kayson
Carly: Carlee, Carleigh, Carley, Carlie, Karlee, Karlie
Kalyn: Cailyn, Kaelyn, Kaelynn, Kailyn, Kailynn, Kaylen, Kaylyn,
Kaylynn
Kailey: Caylee, Kailee, Kaleigh, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Kaylie
Katelyn: Caitlyn, Caitlin, Kaitlin, Kaitlyn, Katelynn
And so on.,

I understand that some countries -- Germany and Iceland among them, but
maybe many more -- have a list of names that may be used officially.
Whether that applies to "middle names" I don't know.

Switzerland requires you to have at least two given names, both of
which must be recognized as names. Someone we know who lives in Geneva
wanted to call his daughter just Valeria, but they said that wasn't
enough. Eventually he added Airelav. They didn't that much either, but
allowed it when he claimed it was a Bulgarian name.

[Cheryl]

Post by Percival P. Cassidy

Post by Cheryl

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Quinn C
There are a number of conventional doubles in German, for both men
and women, and the spelling varies. A man could be named
"Karlheinz", "Karl-Heinz" or "Karl Heinz". Whichever the spelling,
the person is likely to use the complete two parts, but may also
decide to use just either of the two.
The German counterpart of "Mary Ann" would be "Anna Maria" -
again, in three spellings.

In Denmark, an analogy could be Majbritt, where the first part
has at least three variations (Maj, May and Mai), and the second
at least two (one or two t's) giving at least eighteen spelling
variations of what is essentially the same name, and with identical
pronunciation.

This is an increasing problem in English-speaking countries, with more
and more parents wanting unique names for their children, and sometimes
choosing names that are pronounced the same way as better-known ones,
but spelled differently. My own name is a simple example - it's often
spelled "Sheryl" (as well as some other variations). And yes, I
eventually discovered that "Cheryl" is not usually pronounced like
"Sheryl" in the UK; for a while, I thought people on that side of the
Atlantic didn't know how to pronounce it, not that they had a different
pronunciation.
Some examples below - there are lots more.
http://www.sheknows.com/parenting/articles/1023047/unique-spellings-for-common-baby-names
http://preview.tinyurl.com/jp3fcxj
Baby names with a modern flair
Baby names with clever spellings
Are you looking for a baby name that is a little different? Make your
baby's name less traditional with a modern new spelling.
One look at the Social Security Administration's Top 1,000 Baby Names
indicates that many parents opt for trendy, alternative spellings. All
of these spelling variations listed below appeared on the most recent
SSA list. In each case, we've listed the spelling that is currently most
popular.
Change C to K, or vice-versa
The letters C, K, CH and CK are generally interchangeable. A traditional
name, such as Christopher, becomes more modern when the hard CH sound is
changed to just a C (Cristopher) or a K (Kristopher).
Within the top 1,000 names for boys, some C and K names boast as many as
seven different spellings!
Cameron: Camren, Camron, Camryn, Kameron, Kamron and Kamryn.
Colton: Colten, Kolten, Kolton
Connor: Conner, Conor, Konner, Konner
Kason: Casen, Cason, Cayson, Kasen, Kaysen, Kayson
Carly: Carlee, Carleigh, Carley, Carlie, Karlee, Karlie
Kalyn: Cailyn, Kaelyn, Kaelynn, Kailyn, Kailynn, Kaylen, Kaylyn,
Kaylynn
Kailey: Caylee, Kailee, Kaleigh, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Kaylie
Katelyn: Caitlyn, Caitlin, Kaitlin, Kaitlyn, Katelynn
And so on.,

I understand that some countries -- Germany and Iceland among them,
but maybe many more -- have a list of names that may be used
officially. Whether that applies to "middle names" I don't know.

Switzerland requires you to have at least two given names, both of which
must be recognized as names. Someone we know who lives in Geneva wanted
to call his daughter just Valeria, but they said that wasn't enough.
Eventually he added Airelav. They didn't that much either, but allowed
it when he claimed it was a Bulgarian name.

It took me a while to figure out the origin of Nevaeh, which I first
encountered in news reports. Apparently it's become quite popular in
some circles - Wiki says it was invented by some singer I never heard of.

[Urs Beeli]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Percival P. Cassidy
I understand that some countries -- Germany and Iceland among them, but
maybe many more -- have a list of names that may be used officially.
Whether that applies to "middle names" I don't know.

Switzerland requires you to have at least two given names

That is not true. My wife, our two children and I only have one single
given/first name. That is totally acceptable.

However, there is a rule that if the first name does unambigously indicate
the gender, a second given name must be given that does so.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
both of which must be recognized as names.

They used to be much more conservative as to what is considered to be an
acceptable name. Nowadays (I guess multicultural influences are showing)
they allow pretty much anything that is not considered damaging to the
child.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Someone we know who lives in Geneva wanted to call his daughter just
Valeria, but they said that wasn't enough.

That surprises me, as that is - at least to me - an obviously female name.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Eventually he added Airelav. They didn't that much either, but allowed
it when he claimed it was a Bulgarian name.

But then this is Switzerland and Geneva might be doing things differently
than other cantons as is the case in many things here ;-)

Cheers
/urs

[Quinn C]

Post by Cheryl
Cameron: Camren, Camron, Camryn, Kameron, Kamron and Kamryn.

I like Cameron, it was even in the list of names for myself, but
only in the three-syllable pronunciation. If the two-syllable one
is common, I'm glad I didn't go for that, it sounds too much like
a company name to me (Tamron, Omron).

Post by Cheryl
Kailey: Caylee, Kailee, Kaleigh, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Kaylie

I came across an Ashley, and soon after, an Ashleigh. All the
other version are sure to exist.

And then there was the Meaghan in my choir, of whom someone said
"I know she has some extra letters in there, but I can't remember
which" (and I answered "all of them", but that may have been
hasty.)

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Cheryl
Cameron: Camren, Camron, Camryn, Kameron, Kamron and Kamryn.

I like Cameron, it was even in the list of names for myself, but
only in the three-syllable pronunciation. If the two-syllable one
is common, I'm glad I didn't go for that, it sounds too much like
a company name to me (Tamron, Omron).

Post by Cheryl
Kailey: Caylee, Kailee, Kaleigh, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Kaylie

I came across an Ashley, and soon after, an Ashleigh. All the
other version are sure to exist.
And then there was the Meaghan in my choir, of whom someone said
"I know she has some extra letters in there, but I can't remember
which" (and I answered "all of them", but that may have been
hasty.)

The rhythm of the name matters too. We named our daughter
Clare because we wanted a one syllable name to go with
Kleinecke. We cleaned up the rhythm with a middle name -
Clare Elaine Kleinecke
A little alliteration adds to the flavor.

I don't think Clare remembers she has a middle name. But
the initial "E" is often used in CEK.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Cheryl
Carly: Carlee, Carleigh, Carley, Carlie, Karlee, Karlie
Kalyn: Cailyn, Kaelyn, Kaelynn, Kailyn, Kailynn, Kaylen, Kaylyn,
Kaylynn
Kailey: Caylee, Kailee, Kaleigh, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Kaylie
Katelyn: Caitlyn, Caitlin, Kaitlin, Kaitlyn, Katelynn

That last one always amuses me because of the way it's pronounced. The
Irish original, Caitlín, has light second-syllable stress, and would
sound identical to Kathleen if it weren't for the fact that the Irish
don't like saying an English "th". When I hear it in Australia it always
has first-syllable stress, with a schwa replacing the stressed final
vowel. Changing two vowels has, in effect, produced a totally different
name.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 09:51:52 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Cheryl
Carly: Carlee, Carleigh, Carley, Carlie, Karlee, Karlie
Kalyn: Cailyn, Kaelyn, Kaelynn, Kailyn, Kailynn, Kaylen, Kaylyn,
Kaylynn
Kailey: Caylee, Kailee, Kaleigh, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Kaylie
Katelyn: Caitlyn, Caitlin, Kaitlin, Kaitlyn, Katelynn

That last one always amuses me because of the way it's pronounced. The
Irish original, Caitlín, has light second-syllable stress, and would
sound identical to Kathleen if it weren't for the fact that the Irish
don't like saying an English "th". When I hear it in Australia it always
has first-syllable stress, with a schwa replacing the stressed final
vowel. Changing two vowels has, in effect, produced a totally different
name.

There is an English journalist named "Caitlin Moran". Here first name is
actually Catherine. She says "Caitlin" as "Catlin" with both vowels
distinct ("cat" as the feline and "lin" as "in" preceded by "l"). Her
father was Irish. "Moran" has stress on the second syllable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitlin_Moran

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Cheryl
Carly: Carlee, Carleigh, Carley, Carlie, Karlee, Karlie
Kalyn: Cailyn, Kaelyn, Kaelynn, Kailyn, Kailynn, Kaylen, Kaylyn,
Kaylynn
Kailey: Caylee, Kailee, Kaleigh, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Kaylie
Katelyn: Caitlyn, Caitlin, Kaitlin, Kaitlyn, Katelynn

That last one always amuses me because of the way it's pronounced. The
Irish original, Caitlín, has light second-syllable stress, and would
sound identical to Kathleen if it weren't for the fact that the Irish
don't like saying an English "th".

And in fact it's the origin of "Kathleen", I suppose because the Irish
/t/ is dental, not alveolar.

Post by Peter Moylan
When I hear it in Australia it always
has first-syllable stress, with a schwa replacing the stressed final
vowel. Changing two vowels has, in effect, produced a totally different
name.

Same in America, unfortunately.

[James Hogg]

Post by Peter Moylan

Cailyn, Kaelyn, Kaelynn, Kailyn, Kailynn, Kaylen, Kaylyn, Kaylynn
Caitlyn, Caitlin, Kaitlin, Kaitlyn, Katelynn

That last one always amuses me because of the way it's pronounced.
The Irish original, Caitlín, has light second-syllable stress, and
would sound identical to Kathleen if it weren't for the fact that the
Irish don't like saying an English "th". When I hear it in Australia
it always has first-syllable stress, with a schwa replacing the
stressed final vowel. Changing two vowels has, in effect, produced a
totally different name.

Northern dialects of Irish have the stress on the first syllable in
words with the diminutive suffix "-ín" (which becomes "-in". This is
reflected in place names like Gortin (from Goirtín), local pronunciation
GORchin.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

[ ... ]
This is an increasing problem in English-speaking countries, with more
and more parents wanting unique names for their children, and sometimes
choosing names that are pronounced the same way as better-known ones,
but spelled differently. My own name is a simple example - it's often
spelled "Sheryl" (as well as some other variations). And yes, I
eventually discovered that "Cheryl" is not usually pronounced like
"Sheryl" in the UK; for a while, I thought people on that side of the
Atlantic didn't know how to pronounce it, not that they had a different
pronunciation.

Although you told us some time ago how your name was pronounced I still
think of you with the British pronunciation: ['tʃerəl]. Sorry. But I
don't normally say it out loud, so no one around me knows how I
pronounce it.

There is also a variation across the Atlantic about how chemical words
ending in yl are pronounced. I think all or most Americans pronounce
methyl as ['meθəl], but in the UK it's more often ['mɪjθɑɪ̯l] -- quite
different. I tend to use both, depending on who I'm talking to.

[Lewis]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by John Varela

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

That depends entirely on the person whose name it is.
I used to work for a woman named "Mary Ann". That's two tokens, one
given name. If she had had a middle name (I don't think she did) that
would have been another token token.

To me, Mary was a first name and Ann was a middle name. WIWAL in the
South it was commonplace for little girls to use both names like
that. Mary Jane, Betty Sue, Sally Lou, etc. Usually, by adulthood,
the middle name was dropped but some women kept the middle name into
adulthood.

Men too. Billy Ray Cyrus, Joe Bob Briggs, and many other examples.

...
For some reason, in my mind "Mary Ann" is one name but "Jim Bob" is two.

Because Maryanne is one name, so it's easy to think of Mary Ann as one
name too.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I imagine a wedding going like "Do you, James, take this woman...? Do
you, Mary Ann, take this man...?" But when Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue got
married, if they did, would the minister have said, "Do you, Roberta
Susan...?"

Unless her given name was Bobby, probably. Jim Bob would be James
Robert, almost certainly. Sometimes a person's "real" name is a bit of a
surprise.

If I remember correctly, at most weddings the grooms full name is used
and the brides full name minus her last name is used.

"Do you "Edward James Smith take this woman..."

"Do you Elizabeth Mary Ellen take this man..."

[Cheryl]

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by John Varela

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

That depends entirely on the person whose name it is.
I used to work for a woman named "Mary Ann". That's two tokens, one
given name. If she had had a middle name (I don't think she did) that
would have been another token token.

To me, Mary was a first name and Ann was a middle name. WIWAL in the
South it was commonplace for little girls to use both names like
that. Mary Jane, Betty Sue, Sally Lou, etc. Usually, by adulthood,
the middle name was dropped but some women kept the middle name into
adulthood.

Men too. Billy Ray Cyrus, Joe Bob Briggs, and many other examples.

...
For some reason, in my mind "Mary Ann" is one name but "Jim Bob" is two.

Because Maryanne is one name, so it's easy to think of Mary Ann as one
name too.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I imagine a wedding going like "Do you, James, take this woman...? Do
you, Mary Ann, take this man...?" But when Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue got
married, if they did, would the minister have said, "Do you, Roberta
Susan...?"

Unless her given name was Bobby, probably. Jim Bob would be James
Robert, almost certainly. Sometimes a person's "real" name is a bit of a
surprise.
If I remember correctly, at most weddings the grooms full name is used
and the brides full name minus her last name is used.
"Do you "Edward James Smith take this woman..."
"Do you Elizabeth Mary Ellen take this man..."

I thought they used only the given names and not family names for both,
but it's been a while since I was at a wedding, and I don't remember
noticing particularly then. I suppose it might be something that varies
from place to place, and, within a given place, varies according to
where and by whom the ceremony is performed.

[Quinn C]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman
I imagine a wedding going like "Do you, James, take this woman...? Do
you, Mary Ann, take this man...?" But when Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue got
married, if they did, would the minister have said, "Do you, Roberta
Susan...?"

Unless her given name was Bobby, probably. Jim Bob would be James
Robert, almost certainly. Sometimes a person's "real" name is a bit of a
surprise.
If I remember correctly, at most weddings the grooms full name is used
and the brides full name minus her last name is used.
"Do you "Edward James Smith take this woman..."
"Do you Elizabeth Mary Ellen take this man..."

I thought they used only the given names and not family names for both,
but it's been a while since I was at a wedding, and I don't remember
noticing particularly then. I suppose it might be something that varies
from place to place, and, within a given place, varies according to
where and by whom the ceremony is performed.

And these days, of course, according to the wishes of the couple.

I doubt that even by convention the address would be asymmetrical
in Quebec, where changing names upon marriage was dropped 40 years
ago. But I have no actual experience to draw from.

[Charles Bishop]

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by John Varela

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

That depends entirely on the person whose name it is.
I used to work for a woman named "Mary Ann". That's two tokens, one
given name. If she had had a middle name (I don't think she did) that
would have been another token token.

To me, Mary was a first name and Ann was a middle name. WIWAL in the
South it was commonplace for little girls to use both names like
that. Mary Jane, Betty Sue, Sally Lou, etc. Usually, by adulthood,
the middle name was dropped but some women kept the middle name into
adulthood.

Men too. Billy Ray Cyrus, Joe Bob Briggs, and many other examples.

...
For some reason, in my mind "Mary Ann" is one name but "Jim Bob" is two.

Because Maryanne is one name, so it's easy to think of Mary Ann as one
name too.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I imagine a wedding going like "Do you, James, take this woman...? Do
you, Mary Ann, take this man...?" But when Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue got
married, if they did, would the minister have said, "Do you, Roberta
Susan...?"

I've heard someone (many of them) ask Marianne to marry him (them).


charles, last heard they were living in a bamboo hut

[RH Draney]

Post by John Varela

Post by Garrett Wollman
You could in fact have multi-token names in every position, if you're
one of those people who has a double-barreled family name that's
written open rather than hyphenated: {A B} {C D} {E F} -- consider the
case where {C D} is actually something like "St. John".
So, ultimately, this is not something that can be automated.

My grandmother was María Teresa Fernández de Villavicencio Saenz de
Varanda viuda de Varela. Let a machine try to parse that one. She
also had three or four more middle names given to her at baptism
that were not part of her legal name.

The landowner's son who became El Zorro was simply "Diego Vega" in the
1920 film starring Douglas Fairbanks...with every succeeding generation,
the name has become more elaborated, to the point where it's a good
thing his manservant is mute, else he might be inclined to address "Don
Diego de la Vega" as "Don"....r

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by RH Draney

Post by John Varela

Post by Garrett Wollman
You could in fact have multi-token names in every position, if you're
one of those people who has a double-barreled family name that's
written open rather than hyphenated: {A B} {C D} {E F} -- consider the
case where {C D} is actually something like "St. John".
So, ultimately, this is not something that can be automated.

My grandmother was María Teresa Fernández de Villavicencio Saenz de
Varanda viuda de Varela. Let a machine try to parse that one. She
also had three or four more middle names given to her at baptism
that were not part of her legal name.

The landowner's son who became El Zorro was simply "Diego Vega" in the
1920 film starring Douglas Fairbanks...with every succeeding generation,
the name has become more elaborated, to the point where it's a good
thing his manservant is mute, else he might be inclined to address "Don
Diego de la Vega" as "Don"....r

Or "Mark"?

[RH Draney]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by RH Draney
The landowner's son who became El Zorro was simply "Diego Vega" in the
1920 film starring Douglas Fairbanks...with every succeeding generation,
the name has become more elaborated, to the point where it's a good
thing his manservant is mute, else he might be inclined to address "Don
Diego de la Vega" as "Don"....r

Or "Mark"?

No, that's the name of a harelip dog....r

[Don Phillipson]

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names
or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

The category of "middle name" is the problem. This was
an American coinage, reflecting the common practice (a
century ago) of giving children two Christian names, and
sometimes so rigidly applied that people with only one
Christian name appear in the official record as Jack NMI
Jones (where NMI = No Middle Initial.) Notably, in adult
or public life, Pres. Truman used the Christian name Harry
(not Henry) and had no second Christian name, so adopted
the initial S (standing for nothing in particular) in place of a
second Christian name.

But British tradition is different, some people having only
one Christian name and others three or more: so that the
category of "middle name" is of rapidly diminishing utility.
Other countries have other customs in naming, cf. the
Russian and Icelandic patronymic methods.

The OP's questions may invite solutions to what is not
really a problem.

[GordonD]

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with
four elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names or
would A&B be first names and C be the middle name?

The category of "middle name" is the problem. This was an American
coinage, reflecting the common practice (a century ago) of giving
children two Christian names, and sometimes so rigidly applied that
people with only one Christian name appear in the official record as
Jack NMI Jones (where NMI = No Middle Initial.) Notably, in adult or
public life, Pres. Truman used the Christian name Harry (not Henry)
and had no second Christian name, so adopted the initial S (standing
for nothing in particular) in place of a second Christian name.
But British tradition is different, some people having only one
Christian name and others three or more: so that the category of
"middle name" is of rapidly diminishing utility. Other countries have
other customs in naming, cf. the Russian and Icelandic patronymic
methods.

Though the very term 'Christian name' is almost obsolete in the UK, no
doubt due to the increase in non-Christians living here (and by that I
mean people with no religion who never underwent a naming ceremony in a
church as well as those who follow a different religion). Most official
forms these days have the relevant space labelled 'Given name' or
'Forename'.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

[ ... ]
But British tradition is different, some people having only
one Christian name and others three or more: so that the
category of "middle name" is of rapidly diminishing utility.
Other countries have other customs in naming, cf. the
Russian and Icelandic patronymic methods.
The OP's questions may invite solutions to what is not
really a problem.

It becomes a problem when programmers and form designers adopt a
one-size-fits-all approach. Not just Russia and Iceland, but numerous
other countries have conventions different from those assumed to be
standard in the USA. In Europe we have Spain, Portugal and Hungary, and
even Wales, where non-hyphenated double-barrelled names are much more
common than they are in England. That's even before we start thinking
about Asia and Africa.

Madagascar doesn't (as far as I know) go in for large numbers of names,
but it does have some absurdly long ones, like Andrianampoinimerina,
which apparently can serve either as a given name or as a family name,
so in principle one could be called Andrianampoinimerina
Andrianampoinimerina. Someone called Andrianampoinimerina is listed as
an author of a poster on the wall of the corridor in our laboratory. As
soon as I saw it I felt sure it must be a Malagasy name, and it is. I
think there are some South Indian names that are extremely long:
Dingbat will know.

[Harvey]

On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 11:30:51 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Madagascar doesn't (as far as I know) go in for large numbers of names,
but it does have some absurdly long ones, like

Andrianampoinimerina,

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
which apparently can serve either as a given name or as a family name,
so in principle one could be called Andrianampoinimerina
Andrianampoinimerina. Someone called Andrianampoinimerina is listed as
an author of a poster on the wall of the corridor in our

laboratory. As

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
soon as I saw it I felt sure it must be a Malagasy name, and it is. I
Dingbat will know.

Some Sri Lankan names are noticeably long (at least if their
cricketers are typical ).

[Mark Brader]

Pres. Truman... had no second Christian name, so adopted the
initial S (standing for nothing in particular)...

Wrong. It was his parents' decision: his middle name was S, standing
for both Solomon and Shippe, because they couldn't agree on one or
the other (and apparently didn't consider using both). The initial
of this name was S, of course, and he wrote it with a period in his
signature, as normal for an initial.

The president who *adopted* a middle initial S. that did not stand
for anything was Ulysses S. Grant, born Hiram Ulysses Grant. Someone
else miswrote his name as U.S. Grant and he decided he liked that.

[Mark Brader]

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.

This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

And, if he attended the right schools, a name he was known by. "Skip"
or "Bootles" or somesuch.

[bill van]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

Isn't it always pronounced like that?

[bill van]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

Isn't it always pronounced like that?

I don't know. I've only met the one. We have a city called Saint John
over on the east coast and another called St. John's, and we pronounce
them in what I think of as the normal way, as the two words saint and
john(s).

[charles]

Post by bill van

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with
four elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

Isn't it always pronounced like that?

I don't know. I've only met the one. We have a city called Saint John
over on the east coast and another called St. John's, and we pronounce
them in what I think of as the normal way, as the two words saint and
john(s).

similarly a district in North London - St Johns' Wood. Pronounced as
spelling implies.

[RH Draney]

Post by charles

Post by bill van

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by bill van
The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

Isn't it always pronounced like that?

I don't know. I've only met the one. We have a city called Saint John
over on the east coast and another called St. John's, and we pronounce
them in what I think of as the normal way, as the two words saint and
john(s).

similarly a district in North London - St Johns' Wood. Pronounced as
spelling implies.

When I have to ask for that wort at the health food store (the one
that's supposed to level out your moods), how should I say it?...r

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by RH Draney

Post by charles

Post by bill van

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by bill van
The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

Isn't it always pronounced like that?

I don't know. I've only met the one. We have a city called Saint John
over on the east coast and another called St. John's, and we pronounce
them in what I think of as the normal way, as the two words saint and
john(s).

similarly a district in North London - St Johns' Wood. Pronounced as
spelling implies.

When I have to ask for that wort at the health food store (the one
that's supposed to level out your moods), how should I say it?...r

I've only heard it as /seInt 'dZAnz/.

[Mark Brader]

Post by charles

Post by bill van
I don't know. I've only met the one. We have a city called Saint John
over on the east coast and another called St. John's, and we pronounce
them in what I think of as the normal way, as the two words saint and
john(s).

similarly a district in North London - St Johns' Wood.

Oy. (You really needed someone from Canada to do this? I know it,
of course, because there's a tube station named after it. And at
one time there was one named after St. John's Wood Rd.)

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

Isn't it always pronounced like that?

Not in the U.S. I don't know about Canada.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

Isn't it always pronounced like that?

Not in the U.S.

...

Unless I'm wrong. The professional volleyball player Sinjin Smith is
really Christopher St. John Smith, according to Wikipedia.

[Lewis]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

Isn't it always pronounced like that?

Not in the U.S. I don't know about Canada.

It's the only pronunciation I've ever heard in the US for the name.
Granted, it is a very rare name in the US.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

Isn't it always pronounced like that?

Not in the U.S. I don't know about Canada.

It's the only pronunciation I've ever heard in the US for the name.
Granted, it is a very rare name in the US.

I'd heard only the way-it's-spelled pronunciation for 100% of the people
I'd heard of with that name: the actress Jill St. John. But as I said
in my other post, I'm now down to 50%.

[Lewis]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

Isn't it always pronounced like that?

Not in the U.S. I don't know about Canada.

It's the only pronunciation I've ever heard in the US for the name.
Granted, it is a very rare name in the US.

I'd heard only the way-it's-spelled pronunciation for 100% of the people
I'd heard of with that name: the actress Jill St. John. But as I said
in my other post, I'm now down to 50%.

As a last name I think it is normally "Saint John", it's the first name
we're on about.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

One day, at work, we were told that "Sinjun someone" would be visiting
from a different division of the company (in another city). When he
arrived we were given some documents related to the subject of his
visit. We discovered from them that his name was actually "Sanjana".

[Lewis]

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name with four
elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that it's
possible for a single name to be two words long; for example, if a
man's full name was the five words "St. John James de Beauvoir",
probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his first name would
be "St. John", and he would have just one middle name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

I knew someone who changed his name to Sinjin. I assumed it was "St.
John" but no, it was s-i-n-j-i-n, which I still find odd.

[GordonD]

Post by Lewis

Post by bill van

Post by Mark Brader

Post by s***@my-deja.com
Let's say somebody in an English speaking country has a name
with four elements: A, B, C and D.
Normally D would be called Last Name or Surname.

Yes, only they should not be capitalized like that.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
For the rest, would A be the first name and B&C be middle
names

Yes, and all three are given names.
This assumes that each "element" is a separate name. Note that
it's possible for a single name to be two words long; for
example, if a man's full name was the five words "St. John James
de Beauvoir", probably his surname would be "de Beauvoir", his
first name would be "St. John", and he would have just one middle
name, "James".

The only person with the first name St. John I have encountered
pronounced it Sinjun.

I knew someone who changed his name to Sinjin. I assumed it was "St.
John" but no, it was s-i-n-j-i-n, which I still find odd.

If he wanted to annoy people he could spell it s-i-n-j-i-n but insist
it be pronounced "Saint John".

FWIW I suspect most people in the UK would have come across the 'sinjin'
pronunciation by way of Norman St. John-Stevas, a Conservative MP who
served under Heath and Thatcher.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by GordonD

Post by Lewis
[...]
I knew someone who changed his name to Sinjin. I assumed it was "St.
John" but no, it was s-i-n-j-i-n, which I still find odd.

Indeed.

Post by GordonD
If he wanted to annoy people he could spell it s-i-n-j-i-n but insist
it be pronounced "Saint John".

That is downright evil.

Post by GordonD
FWIW I suspect most people in the UK would have come across the 'sinjin'
pronunciation by way of Norman St. John-Stevas, a Conservative MP who
served under Heath and Thatcher.

FWIW, I know the pronunciation from the James Bond movie where he
is undercover as a "St. John Smythe".

/Anders, Denmark