Discussion:
Orient Express vs. Oriental Express
(too old to reply)
Craig
2006-12-20 16:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I previously posted a thread entitled "Asian and Oriental". Somewhere
along the line, I quoted the European "Oriental Express".

Yesterday, I was watching Travel Channel. It showed a trip covered by the
"American Orient Express" train from Salt Lake City to the Yellow Stone
National Park, the Grand Canyon and other places. I did not know that
there was the Orient Express in the US until I saw the TV show. The
American Orient Express train is run by the Amtrak.

My question is whether the name "American Orient Express" is correct or not.
I thought that it should be "American Oriental Express" with an adjective
word Oriental. I might be wrong on this one. Craig
Salvatore Volatile
2006-12-20 16:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig
Yesterday, I was watching Travel Channel. It showed a trip covered by the
"American Orient Express" train from Salt Lake City to the Yellow Stone
National Park, the Grand Canyon and other places. I did not know that
there was the Orient Express in the US until I saw the TV show. The
American Orient Express train is run by the Amtrak.
No "the" before "Amtrak".
Post by Craig
My question is whether the name "American Orient Express" is correct or not.
I thought that it should be "American Oriental Express" with an adjective
word Oriental. I might be wrong on this one. Craig
What do you mean by "correct"? If Amtrak has some train they call "the
American Orient Express", then that's its name.
--
Salvatore Volatile
m***@gmail.com
2006-12-20 16:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig
Hi,
I previously posted a thread entitled "Asian and Oriental". Somewhere
along the line, I quoted the European "Oriental Express".
The original European train was, and the modern tourist train is,
called the "Orient Express". No 'al' at the end. There was a murder
movie set on it. There has never been an "Oriental Express". Such a
title is mistaken.
Craig
2006-12-20 17:18:14 UTC
Permalink
I googled. You're right. It was Orient Express.
The error was from my faulty memory.
I need a new, fresh memory chip for my deteriorating brain.
Craig
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Craig
Hi,
I previously posted a thread entitled "Asian and Oriental". Somewhere
along the line, I quoted the European "Oriental Express".
The original European train was, and the modern tourist train is,
called the "Orient Express". No 'al' at the end. There was a murder
movie set on it. There has never been an "Oriental Express". Such a
title is mistaken.
m***@gmail.com
2006-12-20 17:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig
I googled. You're right. It was Orient Express.
The error was from my faulty memory.
I need a new, fresh memory chip for my deteriorating brain.
It happens to the best of us... Happy Christmas.
Don Aitken
2006-12-20 17:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Craig
Hi,
I previously posted a thread entitled "Asian and Oriental". Somewhere
along the line, I quoted the European "Oriental Express".
The original European train was, and the modern tourist train is,
called the "Orient Express". No 'al' at the end. There was a murder
movie set on it. There has never been an "Oriental Express". Such a
title is mistaken.
There were once a whole slew of them - in addition to the original
Orient Express, there were the Simplon-Orient, Direct-Orient, etc. All
"Orient", not "Oriental". If it seems like rather strange English,
that may be because it's actually French.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Mike Lyle
2006-12-20 17:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Aitken
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Craig
Hi,
I previously posted a thread entitled "Asian and Oriental". Somewhere
along the line, I quoted the European "Oriental Express".
The original European train was, and the modern tourist train is,
called the "Orient Express". No 'al' at the end. There was a murder
movie set on it. There has never been an "Oriental Express". Such a
title is mistaken.
There were once a whole slew of them - in addition to the original
Orient Express, there were the Simplon-Orient, Direct-Orient, etc. All
"Orient", not "Oriental". If it seems like rather strange English,
that may be because it's actually French.
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
--
Mike.
LFS
2006-12-20 17:54:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Lyle
Post by Don Aitken
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Craig
Hi,
I previously posted a thread entitled "Asian and Oriental". Somewhere
along the line, I quoted the European "Oriental Express".
The original European train was, and the modern tourist train is,
called the "Orient Express". No 'al' at the end. There was a murder
movie set on it. There has never been an "Oriental Express". Such a
title is mistaken.
There were once a whole slew of them - in addition to the original
Orient Express, there were the Simplon-Orient, Direct-Orient, etc. All
"Orient", not "Oriental". If it seems like rather strange English,
that may be because it's actually French.
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
<sigh> Pardon me, boy...
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
HVS
2006-12-20 17:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Mike Lyle
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The
Cheltenham Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash
Cannonball.
<sigh> Pardon me, boy...
With the punch line of "the cat that chewed your new shoes"....
--
Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
LFS
2006-12-20 17:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
Post by LFS
Post by Mike Lyle
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The
Cheltenham Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash
Cannonball.
<sigh> Pardon me, boy...
With the punch line of "the cat that chewed your new shoes"....
Corblimey, Harve, how did you do that? You replied before I'd even
finished typing.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
HVS
2006-12-20 17:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by HVS
Post by LFS
Post by Mike Lyle
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The
Cheltenham Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash
Cannonball.
<sigh> Pardon me, boy...
With the punch line of "the cat that chewed your new shoes"....
Corblimey, Harve, how did you do that? You replied before I'd even
finished typing.
Must be the fog out there today -- wavelength shortcuts, doncha'
know...
--
Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
Donna Richoux
2006-12-20 21:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Mike Lyle
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
<sigh> Pardon me, boy...
I was already singing Crosby, Stills and Nash:

Don't you know we're ridin'
On the Marrakesh Express
Don't you know we're ridin'
On the Marrakesh Express
It's taking me to Marrakesh.

Brewer's Names says that the city of Marrakesh gave rise to the name of
the country Morocco.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Jeffrey Turner
2006-12-20 23:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by LFS
Post by Mike Lyle
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
<sigh> Pardon me, boy...
Don't you know we're ridin'
On the Marrakesh Express
Don't you know we're ridin'
On the Marrakesh Express
It's taking me to Marrakesh.
Brewer's Names says that the city of Marrakesh gave rise to the name of
the country Morocco.
"Oh the Rock Island Line, she's a mighty good road..."
"Then I'd watch 'til the lights fade away
On the Atchison, Topeka and the Santa Fe..."
And nearest, dearest to my heart:
"Take the A train."

--Jeff
--
War cannot be humanized. It can only be abolished.
--Albert Einstein
Evan Kirshenbaum
2006-12-20 23:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffrey Turner
Post by LFS
Post by Mike Lyle
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
<sigh> Pardon me, boy...
Don't you know we're ridin' On the Marrakesh Express
Don't you know we're ridin'
On the Marrakesh Express
It's taking me to Marrakesh.
Brewer's Names says that the city of Marrakesh gave rise to the name of
the country Morocco.
"Oh the Rock Island Line, she's a mighty good road..."
"Then I'd watch 'til the lights fade away
On the Atchison, Topeka and the Santa Fe..."
"Take the A train."
"I'm the train they call The City of New Orleans"
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Specifically, I'd like to debate
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |whether cannibalism ought to be
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |grounds for leniency in murder,
|since it's less wasteful.
***@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
m***@gmail.com
2006-12-20 19:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Lyle
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
The Sunny South Express, The Pines Express, The Thames-Clyde Express...
Mike Lyle
2006-12-20 21:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Mike Lyle
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
The Sunny South Express, The Pines Express, The Thames-Clyde Express...
In Oz we used to have one called "The Spirit of Progress": this cannily
avoided any implied promise of where it might be going.
--
Mike.
Hatunen
2006-12-21 02:07:36 UTC
Permalink
On 20 Dec 2006 13:13:18 -0800, "Mike Lyle"
Post by Mike Lyle
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Mike Lyle
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
The Sunny South Express, The Pines Express, The Thames-Clyde Express...
In Oz we used to have one called "The Spirit of Progress": this cannily
avoided any implied promise of where it might be going.
The Orange Blossom Special
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (***@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
R H Draney
2006-12-21 05:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Lyle
Post by Don Aitken
There were once a whole slew of them - in addition to the original
Orient Express, there were the Simplon-Orient, Direct-Orient, etc. All
"Orient", not "Oriental". If it seems like rather strange English,
that may be because it's actually French.
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
Amtrak has the "Desert Wind" and the "Coast Starlight"...the first component of
each name may be understood as either verb or (attributive) noun....r
--
"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.
Pat Durkin
2006-12-21 06:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by R H Draney
Post by Mike Lyle
Post by Don Aitken
There were once a whole slew of them - in addition to the original
Orient Express, there were the Simplon-Orient, Direct-Orient, etc. All
"Orient", not "Oriental". If it seems like rather strange English,
that may be because it's actually French.
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
Amtrak has the "Desert Wind" and the "Coast Starlight"...the first component of
each name may be understood as either verb or (attributive) noun....r
C&NW, which we called the Chicago Road, and sometimes the Northwestern,
had a crack train called "The 400". CMStP&P* was the Milwaukee Road. I
think it had an express line, something with "-liner" in it. Burlington
Road had the "Aksarben" for Nebraska, before becoming Burlington
Northern.

What company ran the 20th Century Limited? That was the premier express
cross-country train, I think.

I don't think the Soo Line had an express, being primarily a freight
operation, but Canadian (or Canada) Pacific must have had a special
express, if only for tourists. Something named after Alberta (the
Clipper?) or Lake Louise, or something.

*Chicago, Milwaukee, St Paul & Pacific.
Mark Brader
2006-12-21 07:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Durkin
What company ran the 20th Century Limited?
The New York Central, of course.
Post by Pat Durkin
That was the premier express cross-country train, I think.
The Pennsylvania Railroad would disagree, of course, but yeah.
Post by Pat Durkin
... but Canadian (or Canada) Pacific
Canadian!
Post by Pat Durkin
must have had a special express, if only for tourists. Something
named after Alberta (the Clipper?) or Lake Louise, or something.
In the CPR's earliest days the westbound was the Pacific Express and
the eastbound trains was the Atlantic Express (even though it only
went as far as Montreal -- see ObAUE bekow). I don't know about the
mid 20th century, but in the diesel era their premier passenger train
was the Canadian, which ran in two portions from Toronto and Montreal
to Sudbury, joined up, and continued to Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary,
Banff, Kamloops, and Vancouver. It competed with the CN's Super
Continental, which served the same three endpoints via Winnipeg,
but ran from there to Kamloops via Saskatoon, Edmonton, and Jasper.

The CP train was considered superior and its route more scenic.
Both trains were inherited by VIA Rail Canada, but after a reduction
in subsidy around 1992, they dropped most parts of the services.
There is still a train called the Canadian, and it still uses the
ex-CP trainsets (refurbished), but it now runs via the CN route
(and less frequently, and only from Toronto).

The CPR did name something after Lake Louise, but it was one of their
Chateau hotels -- oddly enough, located there.

ObAUE: "transcontinental" -- in North American usage, a train linking
a terminus on or near the West Coast to anywhere in the eastern half
of the continent, such as Toronto or Chicago. The term is basically
a holdover from the days when the East had a relatively dense network
of railways but the West was just getting its first through routes.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Gwyneth Paltrow always says I'm a
***@vex.net | shameless name dropper" -- Roger Ford

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Pat Durkin
2006-12-21 16:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Durkin
Post by R H Draney
Post by Mike Lyle
Post by Don Aitken
There were once a whole slew of them - in addition to the original
Orient Express, there were the Simplon-Orient, Direct-Orient, etc. All
"Orient", not "Oriental". If it seems like rather strange English,
that may be because it's actually French.
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
Amtrak has the "Desert Wind" and the "Coast Starlight"...the first component of
each name may be understood as either verb or (attributive) noun....r
C&NW, which we called the Chicago Road, and sometimes the
Northwestern, had a crack train called "The 400". CMStP&P* was the
Milwaukee Road. I think it had an express line, something with
"-liner" in it. Burlington Road had the "Aksarben" for Nebraska,
before becoming Burlington Northern.
What company ran the 20th Century Limited? That was the premier
express cross-country train, I think.
I don't think the Soo Line had an express, being primarily a freight
operation, but Canadian (or Canada) Pacific must have had a special
express, if only for tourists. Something named after Alberta (the
Clipper?) or Lake Louise, or something.
*Chicago, Milwaukee, St Paul & Pacific.
I just remembered that there was another named train, the Empire Builder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Builder

And "The 400" doesn't appear on that list, but does on the history of
C&NW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_and_North_Western_Railway

However, the Hiawatha was another I should have remembered.

Mike M
2006-12-21 11:22:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Lyle
But we do generally name trains with the noun form. The Cheltenham
Flyer, The Cornish Riviera Express, The Wabash Cannonball.
A good opportunity to point out that "The Wabash Cannonball" can be
sung to the tune of "Pinball Wizard". And vice-versa, natch.

A Christmas party suggestion for all you guitarists.

Mike M
Hatunen
2006-12-21 02:14:38 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:31:52 +0000, Don Aitken
Post by Don Aitken
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Craig
Hi,
I previously posted a thread entitled "Asian and Oriental". Somewhere
along the line, I quoted the European "Oriental Express".
The original European train was, and the modern tourist train is,
called the "Orient Express". No 'al' at the end. There was a murder
movie set on it. There has never been an "Oriental Express". Such a
title is mistaken.
There were once a whole slew of them - in addition to the original
Orient Express, there were the Simplon-Orient, Direct-Orient, etc. All
"Orient", not "Oriental". If it seems like rather strange English,
that may be because it's actually French.
Or it may because its destination was the Orient; "Oriental" is
an adjective.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (***@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
CDB
2006-12-20 17:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig
Hi,
I previously posted a thread entitled "Asian and Oriental".
Somewhere along the line, I quoted the European "Oriental Express".
Yesterday, I was watching Travel Channel. It showed a trip covered
by the "American Orient Express" train from Salt Lake City to the
Yellow Stone National Park, the Grand Canyon and other places. I
did not know that there was the Orient Express in the US until I
saw the TV show. [...]
As Wikipedia rightly says, "...the name has become synonymous with
luxury travel." I would add that it also conveys notions of glamour
and adventure. When you find a train-trip advertised as "Someplace's
Orient Express", those associations are the ones they want you to
make; no travel to the East, or connections with the east of anything,
is or are required in justification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orient_Express
Blinky the Shark
2006-12-20 21:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig
Hi,
I previously posted a thread entitled "Asian and Oriental".
Somewhere along the line, I quoted the European "Oriental Express".
Yesterday, I was watching Travel Channel. It showed a trip covered by
the "American Orient Express" train from Salt Lake City to the
Yellow Stone National Park, the Grand Canyon and other places. I
Yellowstone.
Post by Craig
did not know that there was the Orient Express in the US until I saw
the TV show. The American Orient Express train is run by the Amtrak.
My question is whether the name "American Orient Express" is correct
or not. I thought that it should be "American Oriental Express" with
an adjective word Oriental. I might be wrong on this one. Craig
I'd say that the original Orient Express was named after its
destination, not its qualities. Then the American train correctly
borrowed the name.
--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
Mark Brader
2006-12-21 08:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blinky the Shark
I'd say that the original Orient Express was named after its
destination, not its qualities. Then the American train correctly
borrowed the name.
And then they gave up on it:

http://www.travelagewest.com/articles.aspx?article=5181

| Hoping to differentiate itself from its famous namesake, American Orient
| Express has changed its name to GrandLuxe Rail Journeys and added a
| route in Mexico.
|
| The old name didn't reflect the high-end, "cruise on rails" image the
| company wants to project, said Peter Boese, president of GrandLuxe.

(Funny, I thought that was exactly what it conveyed. Trouble was, I guess,
that it only conveyed it to people who knew something about trains.)

| Its weeklong trips are "the most luxurious" form of travel, he continued.
| "We wanted the name to reflect that."

http://www.americanorientexpress.com/

# We are pleased to announce our new name, GrandLuxe Rail Journeys,
# which better reflects our unique product.
--
Mark Brader "A moment's thought would have shown him,
Toronto but a moment is a long time and thought
***@vex.net is a painful process." -- A. E. Housman
Blinky the Shark
2006-12-21 08:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Blinky the Shark
I'd say that the original Orient Express was named after its
destination, not its qualities. Then the American train correctly
borrowed the name.
http://www.travelagewest.com/articles.aspx?article=5181
| Hoping to differentiate itself from its famous namesake, American Orient
| Express has changed its name to GrandLuxe Rail Journeys and added a
| route in Mexico.
|
| The old name didn't reflect the high-end, "cruise on rails" image the
| company wants to project, said Peter Boese, president of GrandLuxe.
(Funny, I thought that was exactly what it conveyed. Trouble was, I guess,
that it only conveyed it to people who knew something about trains.)
Or films.
Post by Mark Brader
| Its weeklong trips are "the most luxurious" form of travel, he continued.
| "We wanted the name to reflect that."
http://www.americanorientexpress.com/
# We are pleased to announce our new name, GrandLuxe Rail Journeys,
# which better reflects our unique product.
Personally, I think they misspelled "is an abomination".
--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
Mark Brader
2006-12-21 08:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blinky the Shark
Post by Mark Brader
| The old name didn't reflect the high-end, "cruise on rails" image the
| company wants to project, said Peter Boese, president of GrandLuxe.
(Funny, I thought that was exactly what it conveyed. Trouble was, I guess,
that it only conveyed it to people who knew something about trains.)
Or films.
Or mystery novels. Why does no one remember that the movie was based
on a book?
--
Mark Brader "I cannot reply in French, but I will
Toronto type English very slowly and loudly."
***@vex.net --Lars Eighner
Hatunen
2006-12-21 02:13:20 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:21:05 -0700, "Craig"
Post by Craig
Hi,
I previously posted a thread entitled "Asian and Oriental". Somewhere
along the line, I quoted the European "Oriental Express".
Yesterday, I was watching Travel Channel. It showed a trip covered by the
"American Orient Express" train from Salt Lake City to the Yellow Stone
National Park, the Grand Canyon and other places. I did not know that
there was the Orient Express in the US until I saw the TV show. The
American Orient Express train is run by the Amtrak.
I can find nothing on their website to indicate the train is run
by AMTRAK; it is a private company. It's unclear, but it may
contract for AMTRAK drivers and crew, though.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (***@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Mark Brader
2006-12-21 08:03:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hatunen
Post by Craig
The American Orient Express train is run by the Amtrak.
I can find nothing on their website to indicate the train is run
by AMTRAK; it is a private company.
Not *the* Amtrak, not AMTRAK, and not Amtrack either (another common error).
Six letters, one capital: Amtrak. Or if you prefer the official name,
National Railroad Passenger Corporation.
Post by Hatunen
It's unclear, but it may contract for AMTRAK drivers and crew, though.
For passenger service crew they hire their own:

http://profiles.hospitalityonline.com/216338/

As for driving the train, it says here:

http://www.americanorientexpress.com/html/FAQ/FAQ.html

GrandLuxe Rail Journeys operates independently of Amtrak and the
various North American rail lines, but works closely with these
companies for locomotive power and access to scenic routes throughout
the United States and Canada.

Which presumably means that they rent locomotives from the railways
whose lines they travel on, and if they do that, they probably contract
with the railways to use their engine crews as well.
--
Mark Brader "Do YOU trust US?"
Toronto "YES!! Well, we try to."
***@vex.net -- A Walk in the Woods, by Lee Blessing

My text in this article is in the public domain.
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