Discussion:
OT another electrical question
(too old to reply)
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-15 23:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out and switching
sockets does so even more?
Richard Tobin
2014-12-16 00:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.

-- Richard
Peter Moylan
2014-12-16 00:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.
ObAUE: is "howcome" now considered a word in alot of English dialects?

Thankyou in advance.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
s***@gmail.com
2014-12-16 03:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.
ObAUE: is "howcome" now considered a word in alot of English dialects?
Thankyou in advance.
I think itis a loan word from Nettish.

/dps
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-16 04:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.
ObAUE: is "howcome" now considered a word in alot of English dialects?
Thankyou in advance.
I think itis a loan word from Nettish.
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.

Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
Jerry Friedman
2014-12-16 05:13:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.
ObAUE: is "howcome" now considered a word in alot of English dialects?
Thankyou in advance.
I think itis a loan word from Nettish.
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-16 14:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.
ObAUE: is "howcome" now considered a word in alot of English dialects?
Thankyou in advance.
I think itis a loan word from Nettish.
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
Because I don't know how, and I don't know how long it would take if I did?
Adam Funk
2014-12-16 14:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
Because I don't know how, and I don't know how long it would take if I did?
If you google 'google n-grams', you'll find this:

https://books.google.com/ngrams

Then type
howcome,how-come,how come
in the box & hit return.
--
In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the
myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Verity Stob)
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-16 15:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
Because I don't know how, and I don't know how long it would take if I did?
https://books.google.com/ngrams
Then type
howcome,how-come,how come
in the box & hit return.
Books insist on using a space.

But what sort of book uses "how come"? Colloquial ones, hopefully. Where
attention ought to be given to colloquial stress patterns.
Adam Funk
2014-12-16 20:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
Because I don't know how, and I don't know how long it would take if I did?
https://books.google.com/ngrams
Then type
howcome,how-come,how come
in the box & hit return.
Books insist on using a space.
Fair point.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But what sort of book uses "how come"? Colloquial ones, hopefully. Where
attention ought to be given to colloquial stress patterns.
You know what copy-editors are like, though: they have a holy rule
book....
--
I heard that Hans Christian Andersen lifted the title for "The Little
Mermaid" off a Red Lobster Menu. [Bucky Katt]
Peter Moylan
2014-12-17 05:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
Because I don't know how, and I don't know how long it would take if I did?
https://books.google.com/ngrams
Then type
howcome,how-come,how come
in the box & hit return.
Books insist on using a space.
But what sort of book uses "how come"? Colloquial ones, hopefully. Where
attention ought to be given to colloquial stress patterns.
In my experience "how come" is stressed on the second word. Is your
spelling supposed to indicate a first-word stress?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-17 14:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
Because I don't know how, and I don't know how long it would take if I did?
https://books.google.com/ngrams
Then type
howcome,how-come,how come
in the box & hit return.
Books insist on using a space.
But what sort of book uses "how come"? Colloquial ones, hopefully. Where
attention ought to be given to colloquial stress patterns.
In my experience "how come" is stressed on the second word. Is your
spelling supposed to indicate a first-word stress?
First-syllable stress more likely, even stress also possible. It doesn't
feel right with second-syllable stress -- that seems to make "come" into
a main verb, as in a quasi-Shakespearean "How come ye this way at such
an hour?"
Dr. HotSalt
2014-12-17 17:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around
for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
Because I don't know how, and I don't know how long it would take if I did?
https://books.google.com/ngrams
Then type
howcome,how-come,how come
in the box & hit return.
Books insist on using a space.
But what sort of book uses "how come"? Colloquial ones, hopefully. Where
attention ought to be given to colloquial stress patterns.
In my experience "how come" is stressed on the second word. Is your
spelling supposed to indicate a first-word stress?
First-syllable stress more likely, even stress also possible. It doesn't
feel right with second-syllable stress -- that seems to make "come" into
a main verb, as in a quasi-Shakespearean "How come ye this way at such
an hour?"
"How come" is a response to a notification about an event, or a changed condition.

Peter Duncanson has pointed out that "how come" is short for "How did what you tell me happen?/How came it?". There's a subsequent phrase implied that "how come" refers to, namely the notification.

"Lunch will be delayed today."

"How come[s it to be that lunch will be delayed today]?"

Functionally "how come?" is equivalent to "why?".

"Why [will lunch be delayed today]?"

"Delay[ed]" doesn't look like the main verb in that sentence to me.


Dr. HotSalt
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-17 19:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around
for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
Because I don't know how, and I don't know how long it would take if I did?
https://books.google.com/ngrams
Then type
howcome,how-come,how come
in the box & hit return.
Books insist on using a space.
But what sort of book uses "how come"? Colloquial ones, hopefully. Where
attention ought to be given to colloquial stress patterns.
In my experience "how come" is stressed on the second word. Is your
spelling supposed to indicate a first-word stress?
First-syllable stress more likely, even stress also possible. It doesn't
feel right with second-syllable stress -- that seems to make "come" into
a main verb, as in a quasi-Shakespearean "How come ye this way at such
an hour?"
"How come" is a response to a notification about an event, or a changed condition.
Peter Duncanson has pointed out that "how come" is short for "How did what you tell me happen?/How came it?". There's a subsequent phrase implied that "how come" refers to, namely the notification.
"Lunch will be delayed today."
"How come[s it to be that lunch will be delayed today]?"
Functionally "how come?" is equivalent to "why?".
"Why [will lunch be delayed today]?"
"Delay[ed]" doesn't look like the main verb in that sentence to me.
In order to show that that's a possible origin of "howcome?", you'd need
to show that such elaborate locutions were fairly common some time ago,
with a semantically bleached auxiliary-style use of "come."

In my example, "come" was a main verb, meaning 'arrive'.
Jerry Friedman
2014-12-16 15:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
Because I don't know how, and I don't know how long it would take if I did?
https://books.google.com/ngrams
Then type
howcome,how-come,how come
in the box & hit return.
And get the result in a second.

You'd probably want to make this search case-insensitive. I'm sure PTD
doesn't need me to point out that you do that by clicking the box to the
right of the search window, which is labeled "case-insensitive".

(Say what you like about Google--they did hyphenate that correctly.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Phil Carmody
2014-12-17 17:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
It's fun, interesting, and everybody's ngram thing. How's come you
don't do it?
Because I don't know how, and I don't know how long it would take if I did?
https://books.google.com/ngrams
Then type
howcome,how-come,how come
in the box & hit return.
And get the result in a second.
You'd probably want to make this search case-insensitive. I'm sure
PTD doesn't need me to point out that you do that by clicking the box
to the right of the search window, which is labeled "case-insensitive".
(Say what you like about Google--they did hyphenate that correctly.)
Indeed. Casein-sensitive would have been a less important
search criterion. It could do with plenty more though; the
last time I checked, I thought it lacked eight.

Phil
--
The best part of re-inventing the wheel is that you get to pick how
many sides the new one has. -- egcagrac0 on SoylentNews
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-17 19:21:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Carmody
Indeed. Casein-sensitive would have been a less important
search criterion. It could do with plenty more though; the
last time I checked, I thought it lacked eight.
Is that more or less serious than lactose-intolerant?
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2014-12-16 10:59:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 20:32:14 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.
ObAUE: is "howcome" now considered a word in alot of English dialects?
Thankyou in advance.
I think itis a loan word from Nettish.
I don't know what Nettish is; presumably "howcome" has been around for more than 50 years.
Maybe Jerry could do his n-gram thing.
The two-word phrase "how come" has been around for some time. The first
example in the OED has it hyphenated. Later ones don't.

19. how come? colloq. (orig. U.S.) phr.: how did (or does) it come
about (that)? Cf. come v. 21a.

1848 J. R. Bartlett Dict. Americanisms How-come? rapidly
pronounced huc-cum, in Virginia. Doubtless an English phrase,
brought over by the original settlers, and propagated even among
the negro slaves. The meaning is, How did what you tell me happen?
How came it?

An OED search for the single word "howcome" goes straight to that entry.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Charles Bishop
2014-12-16 04:46:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.
ObAUE: is "howcome" now considered a word in alot of English dialects?
Thankyou in advance.
I think itis a loan word from Nettish.
Noone I know uses it.
--
charles
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-16 04:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.
But the contact was working fine for a very long time ...
Skitt
2014-12-16 04:36:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.
But the contact was working fine for a very long time ...
The key phrase there is "a very long time". Corrosion, you know ...
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/main.html
Richard Tobin
2014-12-16 10:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skitt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
It improves the contact. Handling them may also warm them up a bit.
But the contact was working fine for a very long time ...
The key phrase there is "a very long time". Corrosion, you know ...
And a new battery may be able to cope with a poor contact while
a somewhat run-down one may not.

-- Richard
the Omrud
2014-12-16 11:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It improves the contact.
Because the terminals may have oxidised slightly. Rotating the battery
scrapes off the corrosion.
--
David
R H Draney
2014-12-16 05:50:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating them on
their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out and switching
sockets does so even more?
It shows them that you're watching them and are aware of their shenanigans, and
thus frightens them into behaving again for a while....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-16 14:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by R H Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating them on
their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out and switching
sockets does so even more?
It shows them that you're watching them and are aware of their shenanigans, and
thus frightens them into behaving again for a while....r
That's the best explanation so far.
J. J. Lodder
2014-12-17 09:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by R H Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching sockets does so even more?
It shows them that you're watching them and are aware of their
shenanigans, and thus frightens them into behaving again for a
while....r
That's the best explanation so far.
Showing them the instruments of torture
(a glass fibre brush)
will frighten them even more,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-16 14:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them
out and switching sockets does so even more?
Just out of curiosity, did you mean to write "Howcome" as one word?
Yes. Because of the stress pattern. It's a common idiom, not e.g. an
elision of "How did it come to pass that."

(Whereas I write <usedbook store> because of scope ambiguity.)
(I see others have answered the actual electrical question.)
Some more creatively than others.
Adam Funk
2014-12-16 14:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them
out and switching sockets does so even more?
Just out of curiosity, did you mean to write "Howcome" as one word?
Yes. Because of the stress pattern. It's a common idiom, not e.g. an
elision of "How did it come to pass that."
Fair enough. As someone who sprinkles diæreses around, I'm not going
to tell you how you have to spell it.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(Whereas I write <usedbook store> because of scope ambiguity.)
I like the carpet shop with "HUGE RUG DEPARTMENT" in the window.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(I see others have answered the actual electrical question.)
Some more creatively than others.
Yeah, show those batteries who's boss!
--
'...and Tom [Snyder] turns to him and says, "so Alice [Cooper], is it
true you kill chickens on stage?" That was the opening question, and
Alice looks at him real serious and goes, "Oh no, no no. That's
Colonel Sanders. Colonel Sanders kills chickens."'
Iain Archer
2014-12-16 15:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(I see others have answered the actual electrical question.)
Some more creatively than others.
Yeah, show those batteries who's boss!
I sometimes take them out, line them up, and prod each one in turn at
both ends with a multimeter probe. Those who don't come up to scratch
then get the charger treatment. The lucky ones, that is.
--
Iain Archer
Traddict
2014-12-16 19:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them
out and switching sockets does so even more?
Just out of curiosity, did you mean to write "Howcome" as one word?
Yes. Because of the stress pattern. It's a common idiom, not e.g. an
elision of "How did it come to pass that."
(Whereas I write <usedbook store> because of scope ambiguity.)
Wouldn't "used-book store" be more orthodox to dispell the ambiguity?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(I see others have answered the actual electrical question.)
Some more creatively than others.
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-16 19:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Traddict
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them
out and switching sockets does so even more?
Just out of curiosity, did you mean to write "Howcome" as one word?
Yes. Because of the stress pattern. It's a common idiom, not e.g. an
elision of "How did it come to pass that."
(Whereas I write <usedbook store> because of scope ambiguity.)
Wouldn't "used-book store" be more orthodox to dispell the ambiguity?
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Traddict
2014-12-16 20:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Traddict
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them
out and switching sockets does so even more?
Just out of curiosity, did you mean to write "Howcome" as one word?
Yes. Because of the stress pattern. It's a common idiom, not e.g. an
elision of "How did it come to pass that."
(Whereas I write <usedbook store> because of scope ambiguity.)
Wouldn't "used-book store" be more orthodox to dispell the ambiguity?
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
I didn't know of that pondian distinction. Can any two-word combinations
following the pattern of "usedbook" therefore be created in AmE?
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-16 21:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Traddict
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Traddict
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them
out and switching sockets does so even more?
Just out of curiosity, did you mean to write "Howcome" as one word?
Yes. Because of the stress pattern. It's a common idiom, not e.g. an
elision of "How did it come to pass that."
(Whereas I write <usedbook store> because of scope ambiguity.)
Wouldn't "used-book store" be more orthodox to dispell the ambiguity?
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
I didn't know of that pondian distinction. Can any two-word combinations
following the pattern of "usedbook" therefore be created in AmE?
Probably not. But look for examples with adjectival scope ambiguity
and see if it helps.
Adam Funk
2014-12-16 21:06:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Traddict
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them
out and switching sockets does so even more?
Just out of curiosity, did you mean to write "Howcome" as one word?
Yes. Because of the stress pattern. It's a common idiom, not e.g. an
elision of "How did it come to pass that."
(Whereas I write <usedbook store> because of scope ambiguity.)
Wouldn't "used-book store" be more orthodox to dispell the ambiguity?
IMO: used book store OK
used-book store OK
usedbook store makes sense but "usedbook" looks funny
used book-store bad
used bookstore bad

because I think in a compound like that a pair of concatenated words should
be at least as semantically "bound together" as a hyphenated pair, & a
hyphenated pair should be at least as bound as a spaced pair.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens? Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
--
And remember, while you're out there risking your life and limb
through shot and shell, we'll be in be in here thinking what a
sucker you are. [Rufus T. Firefly]
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-16 21:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Traddict
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them
out and switching sockets does so even more?
Just out of curiosity, did you mean to write "Howcome" as one word?
Yes. Because of the stress pattern. It's a common idiom, not e.g. an
elision of "How did it come to pass that."
(Whereas I write <usedbook store> because of scope ambiguity.)
Wouldn't "used-book store" be more orthodox to dispell the ambiguity?
IMO: used book store OK
used-book store OK
usedbook store makes sense but "usedbook" looks funny
used book-store bad
used bookstore bad
because I think in a compound like that a pair of concatenated words should
be at least as semantically "bound together" as a hyphenated pair, & a
hyphenated pair should be at least as bound as a spaced pair.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
Peter Moylan
2014-12-17 05:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Traddict
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them
out and switching sockets does so even more?
Just out of curiosity, did you mean to write "Howcome" as one word?
Yes. Because of the stress pattern. It's a common idiom, not e.g. an
elision of "How did it come to pass that."
(Whereas I write <usedbook store> because of scope ambiguity.)
Wouldn't "used-book store" be more orthodox to dispell the ambiguity?
IMO: used book store OK
used-book store OK
usedbook store makes sense but "usedbook" looks funny
used book-store bad
used bookstore bad
because I think in a compound like that a pair of concatenated words should
be at least as semantically "bound together" as a hyphenated pair, & a
hyphenated pair should be at least as bound as a spaced pair.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
It drives the different versions of English further apart, though. I
don't see words like "howcome" and "usedbook" catching on here any time
soon. I'll stick with Britishstyle hyphens.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-17 14:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
It drives the different versions of English further apart, though. I
don't see words like "howcome" and "usedbook" catching on here any time
soon. I'll stick with Britishstyle hyphens.
Would that you had!
Adam Funk
2014-12-17 10:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
--
Unit tests are like the boy who cried wolf.
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-17 14:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Unfortunately that ceased to be the case when Mrs. Turabian retired
and John Grossman suceeded her as the head copyeditor (the 14th was
the first edition where he was in charge, and permissiveness began
to creep in). I never met her, but he was very nice. I think it wasn't
until the 15th that they added a note that the U of C Press would
publish _any_-styled ms. so long as it was internally consistent,
whether or not it followed the CMS style.
Adam Funk
2014-12-18 13:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Unfortunately
No.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
that ceased to be the case when Mrs. Turabian retired
and John Grossman suceeded her as the head copyeditor (the 14th was
the first edition where he was in charge, and permissiveness began
to creep in). I never met her, but he was very nice. I think it wasn't
until the 15th that they added a note that the U of C Press would
publish _any_-styled ms. so long as it was internally consistent,
whether or not it followed the CMS style.
--
The three-martini lunch is the epitome of American efficiency.
Where else can you get an earful, a bellyful and a snootful at
the same time? [Gerald Ford, 1978]
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-18 13:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Unfortunately
No.
How msny book manuscripts have you edited?

How many unedited or inconsistently edited books have you tried to read?
Adam Funk
2014-12-19 15:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Unfortunately
No.
How msny book manuscripts have you edited?
How many unedited or inconsistently edited books have you tried to read?
But you said "would publish _any_-styled ms. so long as it was
internally consistent, whether or not it followed the CMS style".

Anyway, no copy-editor would let you get away with "usedbook"; you
might manage to squeak "howcome" through. So are you for or against
thinking for yourself?
--
$2.95!
PLATE O' SHRIMP
Luncheon Special
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-19 18:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Unfortunately
No.
How msny book manuscripts have you edited?
How many unedited or inconsistently edited books have you tried to read?
But you said "would publish _any_-styled ms. so long as it was
internally consistent, whether or not it followed the CMS style".
That is _now_. Maybe they're desperate to expand into fields where the
writers have become accustomed to the barbaric APA style -- where no
author has a first name, where journal volumes are in bold italic, where
page numbers are in parentheses, etc.

Why didn't you answer either of the questions?

This year I've had to use G. R. Driver's *Aramaic Documents of the
Fifth Century B.C.*, published in 1957 by Clarendon. Mr. Driver was
already fairly elderly at that time, and any notion that there ought
to be any sort of consistency or regularity in his citations was
foreign to him. There's a list of abbreviations that he supposedly
uses, but his abbreviations often don't agree with what's there, and
he uses others that are not explained at all: for instance,
'UCOIP.' LXV 27-9.
(note 1 on p. 3).

Eventually I thought of something it might be (happily it's a work that's
available on line), and it is in fact something that has little to do
with Aramaic documents or the fifth century B.C.

But if I were an English scholar, especially, in 1957 I'd have had to submit
my guess to the library clerk and wait -- perhaps hours, or perhaps until the
next day -- for the book to be brought, and perhaps would have discovered
that the guess was wrong; or even if the guess was right, it had no
bearing on the sentence it was referenced to.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, no copy-editor would let you get away with "usedbook"; you
might manage to squeak "howcome" through. So are you for or against
thinking for yourself?
Why would those words come up in a book or article I was preparing for
academic publication?
Adam Funk
2014-12-19 21:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Unfortunately
No.
How msny book manuscripts have you edited?
How many unedited or inconsistently edited books have you tried to read?
But you said "would publish _any_-styled ms. so long as it was
internally consistent, whether or not it followed the CMS style".
That is _now_. Maybe they're desperate to expand into fields where the
writers have become accustomed to the barbaric APA style -- where no
author has a first name, where journal volumes are in bold italic, where
page numbers are in parentheses, etc.
Why didn't you answer either of the questions?
OK then. I have edited smaller things but not book MSS. I have seen
internally inconsistent books & I agree that internal inconsistency is
a bad thing. But what you called unfortunate permissiveness referred
to works that were internally consistent but not compliant with the
CMOS.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, no copy-editor would let you get away with "usedbook"; you
might manage to squeak "howcome" through. So are you for or against
thinking for yourself?
Why would those words come up in a book or article I was preparing for
academic publication?
Oh, so in academic publications, independent thinking & reasoning are
to be suppressed, but they are OK on the USENET? Interesting.
--
Unit tests are like the boy who cried wolf.
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-20 02:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Unfortunately
No.
How msny book manuscripts have you edited?
How many unedited or inconsistently edited books have you tried to read?
But you said "would publish _any_-styled ms. so long as it was
internally consistent, whether or not it followed the CMS style".
That is _now_. Maybe they're desperate to expand into fields where the
writers have become accustomed to the barbaric APA style -- where no
author has a first name, where journal volumes are in bold italic, where
page numbers are in parentheses, etc.
Why didn't you answer either of the questions?
OK then. I have edited smaller things but not book MSS. I have seen
internally inconsistent books & I agree that internal inconsistency is
a bad thing. But what you called unfortunate permissiveness referred
to works that were internally consistent but not compliant with the
CMOS.
I don't recall ever coming across something in the APA or MLA style manuals
that's better than the CMS version.
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, no copy-editor would let you get away with "usedbook"; you
might manage to squeak "howcome" through. So are you for or against
thinking for yourself?
Why would those words come up in a book or article I was preparing for
academic publication?
Oh, so in academic publications, independent thinking & reasoning are
to be suppressed, but they are OK on the USENET? Interesting.
? No one has ever given me grief about my using my invented words "grammatogeny," "abjad," and "abugida."
Adam Funk
2014-12-21 21:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, no copy-editor would let you get away with "usedbook"; you
might manage to squeak "howcome" through. So are you for or against
thinking for yourself?
Why would those words come up in a book or article I was preparing for
academic publication?
You have on previous occasions told people they were wrong *on the
USENET* for failing to transpose punctuation around quotations marks
as the CMOS stipulates. Does that rulebook apply here or not?
--
A lot of people never use their intiative because no-one
told them to. --- Banksy
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-22 03:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, no copy-editor would let you get away with "usedbook"; you
might manage to squeak "howcome" through. So are you for or against
thinking for yourself?
Why would those words come up in a book or article I was preparing for
academic publication?
You have on previous occasions told people they were wrong *on the
USENET* for failing to transpose punctuation around quotations marks
as the CMOS stipulates. Does that rulebook apply here or not?
It's turned out that "CMOS" is some sort of computer thing. I have
recently mentioned the CMS, so I don't know what you're referring to.

Nor do I know what you mean by "transpos[ing] punctuation around
quotation marks" -- and whenever I made mention of "USENET," I added
"(whatever that is)."

But you haven't sugggested why either "howcome" or "usedbook" would
appear in anything I was publishing.
Steve Hayes
2014-12-22 06:08:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:28:09 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, no copy-editor would let you get away with "usedbook"; you
might manage to squeak "howcome" through. So are you for or against
thinking for yourself?
Why would those words come up in a book or article I was preparing for
academic publication?
You have on previous occasions told people they were wrong *on the
USENET* for failing to transpose punctuation around quotations marks
as the CMOS stipulates. Does that rulebook apply here or not?
It's turned out that "CMOS" is some sort of computer thing. I have
recently mentioned the CMS, so I don't know what you're referring to.
CMOS (complementary metal-oxide semiconductor) is the semiconductor technology
used in the transistors that are manufactured into most of today's computer
microchips.

CMS is the Church Missionary Society, as in the old Anglican joke, when there
were two main Anglican missionary societies in England: the SPG is the Church
Missionary Society and the CMS is the Society of the Propagation of the
Gospel. They have now both changed their names or changed what the letters
stand for.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Adam Funk
2014-12-22 15:45:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, no copy-editor would let you get away with "usedbook"; you
might manage to squeak "howcome" through. So are you for or against
thinking for yourself?
Why would those words come up in a book or article I was preparing for
academic publication?
You have on previous occasions told people they were wrong *on the
USENET* for failing to transpose punctuation around quotations marks
as the CMOS stipulates. Does that rulebook apply here or not?
It's turned out that "CMOS" is some sort of computer thing. I have
recently mentioned the CMS, so I don't know what you're referring to.
Whatever.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Nor do I know what you mean by "transpos[ing] punctuation around
quotation marks" -- and whenever I made mention of "USENET," I added
"(whatever that is)."
Bullsh|t. You just did it twice there. Everyone who actually gives
it some thought realizes it's wrong, but ignorant stubborn
copy-editors keep it going in some countries.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But you haven't sugggested why either "howcome" or "usedbook" would
appear in anything I was publishing.
Who cares whether they would appear in your publications? You made a
good case for the words, & I pointed out that stubborn copy-editors
would suppress them.
--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995)
Peter T. Daniels
2014-12-22 17:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
You have on previous occasions told people they were wrong *on the
USENET* for failing to transpose punctuation around quotations marks
as the CMOS stipulates. Does that rulebook apply here or not?
It's turned out that "CMOS" is some sort of computer thing. I have
recently mentioned the CMS, so I don't know what you're referring to.
Whatever.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Nor do I know what you mean by "transpos[ing] punctuation around
quotation marks" -- and whenever I made mention of "USENET," I added
"(whatever that is)."
Bullsh|t. You just did it twice there. Everyone who actually gives
it some thought realizes it's wrong, but ignorant stubborn
copy-editors keep it going in some countries.
Did what?
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But you haven't sugggested why either "howcome" or "usedbook" would
appear in anything I was publishing.
Who cares whether they would appear in your publications? You made a
good case for the words, & I pointed out that stubborn copy-editors
would suppress them.
Even in its most prescriptive days, CMS allowed authors to make a case
for consistent deviation from the house style if there was a good reason.

The style directive I have from OUP for my current book insists on BC/AD rather than BCE/CE, but I will present my argument (basically, almost no
dates that I give bear any relation to Christ-oriented cultures) -- as
also for a couple of deviations in reference style (I don't like parentheses
around pub. dates in bibliographies, and I prefer double to single quotes
around article titles).
Adam Funk
2014-12-22 20:23:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Nor do I know what you mean by "transpos[ing] punctuation around
quotation marks" -- and whenever I made mention of "USENET," I added
"(whatever that is)."
Bullsh|t. You just did it twice there. Everyone who actually gives
it some thought realizes it's wrong, but ignorant stubborn
copy-editors keep it going in some countries.
Did what?
Very funny.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The style directive I have from OUP for my current book insists on BC/AD rather than BCE/CE, but I will present my argument (basically, almost no
dates that I give bear any relation to Christ-oriented cultures) -- as
also for a couple of deviations in reference style (I don't like parentheses
around pub. dates in bibliographies, and I prefer double to single quotes
around article titles).
I'm surprised that they don't prefer (B)CE, actually. I don't see a
need for parentheses around dates in bibliographies, but they seem
mostly harmless. I do think using double quotes as the main ones is
better, because it's possible (although I don't suppose it can happen
often) for an apostrophe at the end of a word to be misread at first
glance as the closing single quote.
--
I look back with the greatest pleasure to the kindness and hospitality
I met with in Yorkshire, where I spent some of the happiest years of
my life. --- Sabine Baring-Gould
Dr Nick
2014-12-20 13:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Don't be too rude about the CMOS dinosaurs. They used a lot less power
than the TTL ones.
Steve Hayes
2014-12-20 18:32:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:15:22 +0000, Dr Nick
Post by Dr Nick
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Don't be too rude about the CMOS dinosaurs. They used a lot less power
than the TTL ones.
I must be a dinosaur, I wasn't aware that the TTL ones were a replacement for
the CMOS ones. Perhaps I was confusing them with DDRAM.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Snidely
2014-12-21 08:25:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:15:22 +0000, Dr Nick
Post by Dr Nick
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for
quite a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Don't be too rude about the CMOS dinosaurs. They used a lot less power
than the TTL ones.
I must be a dinosaur, I wasn't aware that the TTL ones were a replacement for
the CMOS ones. Perhaps I was confusing them with DDRAM.
No, backwards. And before that, RTL.

/dps "I missed going tubing"
--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean
Steve Hayes
2014-12-21 13:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:15:22 +0000, Dr Nick
Post by Dr Nick
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for
quite a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Don't be too rude about the CMOS dinosaurs. They used a lot less power
than the TTL ones.
I must be a dinosaur, I wasn't aware that the TTL ones were a replacement for
the CMOS ones. Perhaps I was confusing them with DDRAM.
No, backwards. And before that, RTL.
CMOS was what we had when I became interested in microcomputers, and got one.
Later I lost track, and I've only the vaguest idea of what's inside the boxes
nowadays.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Snidely
2014-12-23 08:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Snidely
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:15:22 +0000, Dr Nick
Post by Dr Nick
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for
quite a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Don't be too rude about the CMOS dinosaurs. They used a lot less power
than the TTL ones.
I must be a dinosaur, I wasn't aware that the TTL ones were a replacement
for the CMOS ones. Perhaps I was confusing them with DDRAM.
No, backwards. And before that, RTL.
CMOS was what we had when I became interested in microcomputers, and got one.
Later I lost track, and I've only the vaguest idea of what's inside the boxes
nowadays.
TTL was what they had before then, back when a logic gate fit on a 3x5
circuit board.

/dps
--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain
Tak To
2014-12-27 07:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:15:22 +0000, Dr Nick
Post by Dr Nick
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for
quite a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Don't be too rude about the CMOS dinosaurs. They used a lot less power
than the TTL ones.
I must be a dinosaur, I wasn't aware that the TTL ones were a replacement for
the CMOS ones. Perhaps I was confusing them with DDRAM.
No, backwards. And before that, RTL.
With DTL in between.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Snidely
2014-12-27 07:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Tak To pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by Tak To
Post by Snidely
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:15:22 +0000, Dr Nick
Post by Dr Nick
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for
quite a few editions. It would be more British to hyphenate.
Why are they against hyphens?
Fussiness, maybe.
Post by Adam Funk
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the CMOS
wouldn't allow "usedbook", so you might as well just break free of the
whole thing.
The problem is that "bookstore" is a word with a certain stress pattern,
and "used book" is an Adj-N with equal stress, so when you do "used book
store" you don't know where to put the stress. Bud "usedbook" becomes a
compound like "blackbird" with unmisapplyable stress, so it can combine
with "store" without awkwardness.
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Don't be too rude about the CMOS dinosaurs. They used a lot less power
than the TTL ones.
I must be a dinosaur, I wasn't aware that the TTL ones were a replacement
for the CMOS ones. Perhaps I was confusing them with DDRAM.
No, backwards. And before that, RTL.
With DTL in between.
Imagine that I inserted a cryptic combination of characters here:
colon-hyphen-rparen.

/dps "in quiet appreciation"
--
Ieri, oggi, domani
Dr. HotSalt
2014-12-27 08:58:33 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, December 26, 2014 11:41:54 PM UTC-8, Snidely wrote:

(attributions elided as irrelevant to the joke)
Post by Snidely
CMOS
TTL
RTL
(also RL [now known as LL] with no Ts involved)
Post by Snidely
DTL
colon-hyphen-rparen.
I suppose mentioning that there was VTL before them all wouldn't clarify anything for you.


Dr. HotSalt
Snidely
2014-12-27 20:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. HotSalt
(attributions elided as irrelevant to the joke)
Post by Snidely
CMOS
TTL
RTL
(also RL [now known as LL] with no Ts involved)
Post by Snidely
DTL
colon-hyphen-rparen.
I suppose mentioning that there was VTL before them all wouldn't clarify
anything for you.
Valve-Transistor? Or Vertical Takeoff? (Very Tiny seems unlikely at
that stage.)

/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
Peter Moylan
2014-12-27 23:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Dr. HotSalt
(attributions elided as irrelevant to the joke)
Post by Snidely
CMOS
TTL
RTL
(also RL [now known as LL] with no Ts involved)
Post by Snidely
DTL
colon-hyphen-rparen.
I suppose mentioning that there was VTL before them all wouldn't
clarify anything for you.
Valve-Transistor? Or Vertical Takeoff? (Very Tiny seems unlikely at
that stage.)
Vacuum take-off and landing, of course.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
s***@gmail.com
2014-12-28 00:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Snidely
Post by Dr. HotSalt
(attributions elided as irrelevant to the joke)
Post by Snidely
CMOS
TTL
RTL
(also RL [now known as LL] with no Ts involved)
Post by Snidely
DTL
colon-hyphen-rparen.
I suppose mentioning that there was VTL before them all wouldn't
clarify anything for you.
Valve-Transistor? Or Vertical Takeoff? (Very Tiny seems unlikely at
that stage.)
Vacuum take-off and landing, of course.
Dang it, as an AmE speaker I should have seen that on my own!

/dps "any old Eniac will do"
(was it here I learned about the recovered panels?
<URL:http://techxplore.com/news/2014-11-eniac-panels-oklahoma-museum.html>)
Adam Funk
2014-12-30 21:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Snidely
Post by Dr. HotSalt
I suppose mentioning that there was VTL before them all wouldn't
clarify anything for you.
Valve-Transistor? Or Vertical Takeoff? (Very Tiny seems unlikely at
that stage.)
Vacuum take-off and landing, of course.
It sucks, though.
--
I used to be better at logic problems, before I just dumped
them all into TeX and let Knuth pick out the survivors.
-- plorkwort
Adam Funk
2014-12-20 20:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Nick
Post by Adam Funk
That all makes perfect sense, but that kind of independent thinking &
reasoning is just the sort of thing the CMOS dinosaurs aim to
suppress.
Don't be too rude about the CMOS dinosaurs. They used a lot less power
than the TTL ones.
+1 nerd humour
--
They do (play, that is), and nobody gets killed, but Metallic K.O. is
the only rock album I know where you can actually hear hurled beer
bottles breaking against guitar strings. --- Lester Bangs
Joy Beeson
2014-12-18 03:54:41 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:43:02 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions.
The Chicago Manual of Style is cordially invited to visit Pike Lake
Park, which has an excellent selection of short piers.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
Charles Bishop
2014-12-18 18:23:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:43:02 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions.
The Chicago Manual of Style is cordially invited to visit Pike Lake
Park, which has an excellent selection of short piers.
<applause>
--
charles
Adam Funk
2014-12-19 15:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:43:02 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Chicago Manual of Style has been counseling against hyphens for quite
a few editions.
The Chicago Manual of Style is cordially invited to visit Pike Lake
Park, which has an excellent selection of short piers.
<applause>
Indeed.
--
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.
[Ambrose Bierce]
John Varela
2014-12-16 23:06:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:38:51 UTC, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out and switching
sockets does so even more?
The contacts had gotten dirty, most likely from corrosion. In that
circumstance I will take the batteries out and rub each end of each
battery against the sole of my shoe. That will clean the contacts
and often solve the problem. If that doesn't work, then I have a
small piece of emery cloth in my desk drawer and use that to clean
the contacts in the device, if they can be reached.

If none of that helps then it's time to replace the batteries.
--
John Varela
occam
2014-12-17 16:56:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out and switching
sockets does so even more?
'peter out' is an interesting expression. Who is the Peter that is outing?
James Silverton
2014-12-17 17:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out and switching
sockets does so even more?
'peter out' is an interesting expression. Who is the Peter that is outing?
I can't remember when I first used "peter out". It was a long time ago
and the OED has:
Etymology: Origin unknown. Perhaps compare peter v.1 1.
Alternatively, perhaps compare French péter to explode (1585 in Middle
French), to break wind (1380 in Middle French; < pet pet n.1), and the
semantic development of fizzle v.; with the mining context of much early
use, perhaps also, or alternatively, compare saltpetre n.

orig. U.S.

1. intr. To run out, decrease, or fade; gradually to come to an end or
cease to exist. In early use esp. of a vein of ore (U.S. Mining slang).
Usu. with out.

1846 Quincy (Illinois) Whig 6 Jan. 1/4 When my mineral petered why
they all Petered me. If so be I gets a lead, why I'm Mr. Tiff again.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2014-12-17 18:43:11 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:32:09 -0500, James Silverton
Post by James Silverton
Post by occam
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out and switching
sockets does so even more?
'peter out' is an interesting expression. Who is the Peter that is outing?
I can't remember when I first used "peter out". It was a long time ago
Etymology: Origin unknown. Perhaps compare peter v.1 1.
Alternatively, perhaps compare French péter to explode (1585 in Middle
French), to break wind (1380 in Middle French; < pet pet n.1), and the
semantic development of fizzle v.; with the mining context of much early
use, perhaps also, or alternatively, compare saltpetre n.
orig. U.S.
1. intr. To run out, decrease, or fade; gradually to come to an end or
cease to exist. In early use esp. of a vein of ore (U.S. Mining slang).
Usu. with out.
1846 Quincy (Illinois) Whig 6 Jan. 1/4 When my mineral petered why
they all Petered me. If so be I gets a lead, why I'm Mr. Tiff again.
There is information and speculation here:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/peter-out.html
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Iain Archer
2014-12-17 19:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:32:09 -0500, James Silverton
Post by James Silverton
I can't remember when I first used "peter out". It was a long time ago
Etymology: Origin unknown. Perhaps compare peter v.1 1.
Alternatively, perhaps compare French péter to explode (1585 in Middle
French), to break wind (1380 in Middle French; < pet pet n.1), and the
semantic development of fizzle v.; with the mining context of much early
use, perhaps also, or alternatively, compare saltpetre n.
orig. U.S.
1. intr. To run out, decrease, or fade; gradually to come to an end or
cease to exist. In early use esp. of a vein of ore (U.S. Mining slang).
Usu. with out.
1846 Quincy (Illinois) Whig 6 Jan. 1/4 When my mineral petered why
they all Petered me. If so be I gets a lead, why I'm Mr. Tiff again.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/peter-out.html
Very polysemic, peter.

When Peter's funds petered out because of his peter habit he tried to
peter a peter but, predictably, ended up in the peter.
--
Iain Archer
Traddict
2014-12-17 19:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:32:09 -0500, James Silverton
Post by James Silverton
Post by occam
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them out
and switching
sockets does so even more?
'peter out' is an interesting expression. Who is the Peter that is outing?
I can't remember when I first used "peter out". It was a long time ago
Etymology: Origin unknown. Perhaps compare peter v.1 1.
Alternatively, perhaps compare French péter to explode (1585 in Middle
French), to break wind (1380 in Middle French; < pet pet n.1), and the
semantic development of fizzle v.; with the mining context of much early
use, perhaps also, or alternatively, compare saltpetre n.
orig. U.S.
1. intr. To run out, decrease, or fade; gradually to come to an end or
cease to exist. In early use esp. of a vein of ore (U.S. Mining slang).
Interestingly, "petra" in Latin means "stone". Despite what the OED says,
the origin might therefore well be Latin "petra" as besides "peter out" was
first used in mining.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by James Silverton
Usu. with out.
1846 Quincy (Illinois) Whig 6 Jan. 1/4 When my mineral petered why
they all Petered me. If so be I gets a lead, why I'm Mr. Tiff again.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/peter-out.html
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Whiskers
2014-12-18 22:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Howcome, when the batteries in my remotes are petering out, rotating
them on their axis in their sockets refreshes them, and taking them
out and switching sockets does so even more?
The internal resistance of battery cells increases as they 'wear out';
changing the order in which the cells are arranged can briefly put a
less worn out cell in a position where it can deliver more power to the
appliance without being impeded by the more worn cells. Possibly.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
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