Discussion:
The game of pool
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Harrison Hill
2018-05-12 19:51:57 UTC
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In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
(the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
a diamond).

How do we play pool nowadays?

In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.
Harrison Hill
2018-05-12 20:17:05 UTC
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On Saturday, 12 May 2018 20:51:59 UTC+1, Harrison Hill wrote:
> In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
> (the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
> the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
> a diamond).
>
> How do we play pool nowadays?
>
> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.

Oops that was 8-ball.
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-12 23:35:16 UTC
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On 5/12/18 2:17 PM, Harrison Hill wrote:
> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 20:51:59 UTC+1, Harrison Hill wrote:
>> In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
>> (the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
>> the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
>> a diamond).
>>
>> How do we play pool nowadays?
>>
>> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
>> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
>> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.
>
> Oops that was 8-ball.

Right. Some call it "stripes and solids". As far as I know, that's how
a lot of us Americans play pool nowadays.

--
Jerry Friedman
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-13 07:17:31 UTC
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On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 4:35:19 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 5/12/18 2:17 PM, Harrison Hill wrote:
> > On Saturday, 12 May 2018 20:51:59 UTC+1, Harrison Hill wrote:
> >> In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
> >> (the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
> >> the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
> >> a diamond).
> >>
> >> How do we play pool nowadays?
> >>
> >> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
> >> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
> >> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.
> >
> > Oops that was 8-ball.
>
> Right. Some call it "stripes and solids". As far as I know, that's how
> a lot of us Americans play pool nowadays.
>
I call it eight-ball. I suspect it's still the most commonly played game
on North American pool tables. Nine-ball had a surge in popularity
some years ago, but it's more of a tournament game, not what you'd play
on a challenge table at your favourite bar.

You can also play snooker on a pool table, but real snooker is played
on a snooker table, which is much bigger, making the game much more
difficult.

Many years ago when I was a university student, we played a three-person
game called cutthroat. Each player would select five balls -- 1 to 5, 6 to 10
or 11 to 15 -- and would win the game by sinking their five balls before
anyone else sank theirs. You had to hit one of your own balls first.

There was also a variation of billiards for pocket pool tables, with two
cue balls (one was marked with a dot) and a red ball. You could score points
with a carem -- hitting both the other balls with your cue ball -- or
sinking an opponent's cue ball, or sinking your cue ball off one of the
other balls.

I played Dutch billiards ("biljarten"} a few times on a pocketless table.
The only way to score was with the carem (carambole) but in the
major variant, called "driebanden", the shooter's cue ball had to
hit three cushions between contacts with the other two balls.

Snooker is a good game for television. You can find some entertaining
matches by searching YouTube for "snooker".

bill
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-13 12:11:19 UTC
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On 5/13/18 1:17 AM, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 4:35:19 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 5/12/18 2:17 PM, Harrison Hill wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 12 May 2018 20:51:59 UTC+1, Harrison Hill wrote:
>>>> In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
>>>> (the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
>>>> the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
>>>> a diamond).
>>>>
>>>> How do we play pool nowadays?
>>>>
>>>> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
>>>> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
>>>> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.
>>>
>>> Oops that was 8-ball.
>>
>> Right. Some call it "stripes and solids". As far as I know, that's how
>> a lot of us Americans play pool nowadays.
>>
> I call it eight-ball. I suspect it's still the most commonly played game
> on North American pool tables. Nine-ball had a surge in popularity
> some years ago, but it's more of a tournament game, not what you'd play
> on a challenge table at your favourite bar.

I'm pretty sure that if I played nine-ball against someone of similar
ability, the game would go on for a very long time.

> You can also play snooker on a pool table, but real snooker is played
> on a snooker table, which is much bigger, making the game much more
> difficult.
>
> Many years ago when I was a university student, we played a three-person
> game called cutthroat. Each player would select five balls -- 1 to 5, 6 to 10
> or 11 to 15 -- and would win the game by sinking their five balls before
> anyone else sank theirs. You had to hit one of your own balls first.

I've played that once or twice. Did you select the five balls at the
beginning, or after sinking your first ball (unless you were the third
to select)?

> There was also a variation of billiards for pocket pool tables, with two
> cue balls (one was marked with a dot) and a red ball. You could score points
> with a carem -- hitting both the other balls with your cue ball -- or
> sinking an opponent's cue ball, or sinking your cue ball off one of the
> other balls.
>
> I played Dutch billiards ("biljarten"} a few times on a pocketless table.

That's what I call real billiards.

> The only way to score was with the carem

Since that's the second time, it's spelled "carom". BrE "cannon", I've
been told here.

> (carambole) but in the
> major variant, called "driebanden", the shooter's cue ball had to
> hit three cushions between contacts with the other two balls.

And that's real real billiards, officially three-cushion billiards. I
played a little zero-cushion billiards (not the official name) in
college, but I was never capable of making a three-cushion billiard on
purpose.

> Snooker is a good game for television. You can find some entertaining
> matches by searching YouTube for "snooker".

Even I have watched a little YouTube snooker and been entertained.

--
Jerry Friedman
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-13 20:39:59 UTC
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On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 5:11:23 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 5/13/18 1:17 AM, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> >
> > Many years ago when I was a university student, we played a three-person
> > game called cutthroat. Each player would select five balls -- 1 to 5, 6 to 10
> > or 11 to 15 -- and would win the game by sinking their five balls before
> > anyone else sank theirs. You had to hit one of your own balls first.
>
> I've played that once or twice. Did you select the five balls at the
> beginning, or after sinking your first ball (unless you were the third
> to select)?

It has been 50 years, give or take, so I'm not certain. I think it's
likely that it depended on which ball you sank first. If someone else
sank a ball before you did, your choices were reduced. After a second
player selected by sinking a ball, the third player had no choice.

bill
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 20:26:38 UTC
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On Sat, 12 May 2018 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
>(the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
>the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
>a diamond).
>
>How do we play pool nowadays?
>
>In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
>which ball you or your opponent first sank.

I have always called it "8-ball" because the objective is to sink* the
8-ball, but that can only be attempted after sinking* all of the
stripes or solids.

*Or "pot" or "potted" if those are the terms you use.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
HVS
2018-05-12 20:47:53 UTC
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On Sat, 12 May 2018 16:26:38 -0400, Tony Cooper
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:


> >In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
> >(the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
> >the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
> >a diamond).
> >
> >How do we play pool nowadays?
> >
> >In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
> >which ball you or your opponent first sank.


> I have always called it "8-ball" because the objective is to sink*
the
> 8-ball, but that can only be attempted after sinking* all of the
> stripes or solids.

I play in a pool league, which (UK version) uses solid-colour balls
(no spots, stripes, or numbers) - 7 yellow, 7 red, and the black.

The official name for it is "Black Ball", but I've never heard anyone
call it anything other than just "pool".
HVS
2018-05-12 20:59:03 UTC
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On Sat, 12 May 2018 21:47:53 +0100, HVS
<***@REMOVE-THISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 16:26:38 -0400, Tony Cooper
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 12 May 2018 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:




> > >In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
> > >(the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
> > >the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls
forming
> > >a diamond).
> > >
> > >How do we play pool nowadays?
> > >
> > >In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
> > >which ball you or your opponent first sank.




> > I have always called it "8-ball" because the objective is to
sink*
> the
> > 8-ball, but that can only be attempted after sinking* all of the
> > stripes or solids.


> I play in a pool league, which (UK version) uses solid-colour balls
> (no spots, stripes, or numbers) - 7 yellow, 7 red, and the black.

I've mis-described that - the black ball has the number "8" on it.

> The official name for it is "Black Ball", but I've never heard
anyone
> call it anything other than just "pool".
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-13 12:14:14 UTC
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On 5/12/18 2:59 PM, HVS wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 21:47:53 +0100, HVS <***@REMOVE-THISwhhvs.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 16:26:38 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Sat, 12 May 2018 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> > >In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
>> > >(the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
>> > >the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls
> forming
>> > >a diamond).
>> > > > >How do we play pool nowadays?
>> > > > >In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
>> > >which ball you or your opponent first sank.
>
>
>
>
>> > I have always called it "8-ball" because the objective is to
> sink*
>> the
>> > 8-ball, but that can only be attempted after sinking* all of the
>> > stripes or solids.
>
>
>> I play in a pool league, which (UK version) uses solid-colour balls
>> (no spots, stripes, or numbers) - 7 yellow, 7 red, and the black.
>
> I've mis-described that - the black ball has the number "8" on it.
>> The official name for it is "Black Ball", but I've never heard
> anyone
>> call it anything other than just "pool".

Sounds as if it might be exactly the same as eight-ball. Except that
good eight-ball players may play that you have to call your shots, which
numbered balls are very convenient for.

--
Jerry Friedman
HVS
2018-05-13 12:42:14 UTC
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On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:14:14 -0600, Jerry Friedman
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 5/12/18 2:59 PM, HVS wrote:
> > On Sat, 12 May 2018 21:47:53 +0100, HVS
<***@REMOVE-THISwhhvs.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> On Sat, 12 May 2018 16:26:38 -0400, Tony Cooper
> >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On Sat, 12 May 2018 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
> >> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> > >In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
> >> > >(the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
> >> > >the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls
> > forming
> >> > >a diamond).
> >> > > > >How do we play pool nowadays?
> >> > > > >In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids",
depending on
> >> > >which ball you or your opponent first sank.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> > I have always called it "8-ball" because the objective is to
> > sink*
> >> the
> >> > 8-ball, but that can only be attempted after sinking* all of
the
> >> > stripes or solids.
> >
> >
> >> I play in a pool league, which (UK version) uses solid-colour
balls
> >> (no spots, stripes, or numbers) - 7 yellow, 7 red, and the
black.
> >
> > I've mis-described that - the black ball has the number "8" on it.
> >> The official name for it is "Black Ball", but I've never heard
> > anyone
> >> call it anything other than just "pool".


> Sounds as if it might be exactly the same as eight-ball. Except
that
> good eight-ball players may play that you have to call your shots,
which
> numbered balls are very convenient for.

I think it's exactly the same as eight-ball, but since there aren't
any numbers on the yellows or reds, there isn't the same range of
possible games to play with them - so there's no point in
differentiating the game by calling it anything other than "pool".
micky
2018-05-12 20:59:36 UTC
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In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 12 May 2018 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Harrison
Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
>(the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
>the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
>a diamond).
>
>How do we play pool nowadays?

More than one game can be played on a pool table. Just like you can
play either right- or left-handed baseball on a baseball diamond.

>
>In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
>which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
>had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.


--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 22:22:00 UTC
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On Sat, 12 May 2018 16:59:36 -0400, micky <***@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 12 May 2018 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Harrison
>Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
>>(the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
>>the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
>>a diamond).
>>
>>How do we play pool nowadays?
>
>More than one game can be played on a pool table. Just like you can
>play either right- or left-handed baseball on a baseball diamond.
>

I watched a baseball game this morning. I have no idea if it was
left- or right-handed. The first baseman - my grandson - is
left-handed. The catcher - also my grandson - is right-handed.
The umpires were even-handed. Neither team was short-handed.

We were handed a 10-9 loss.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Richard Yates
2018-05-12 23:34:24 UTC
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On Sat, 12 May 2018 18:22:00 -0400, Tony Cooper
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 May 2018 16:59:36 -0400, micky <***@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 12 May 2018 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Harrison
>>Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
>>>(the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
>>>the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
>>>a diamond).
>>>
>>>How do we play pool nowadays?
>>
>>More than one game can be played on a pool table. Just like you can
>>play either right- or left-handed baseball on a baseball diamond.
>>
>
>I watched a baseball game this morning. I have no idea if it was
>left- or right-handed. The first baseman - my grandson - is
>left-handed. The catcher - also my grandson - is right-handed.
>The umpires were even-handed. Neither team was short-handed.
>
>We were handed a 10-9 loss.

Did they run the bases clockwise or widdershins?
Tony Cooper
2018-05-13 00:04:45 UTC
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On Sat, 12 May 2018 16:34:24 -0700, Richard Yates
<***@yatesguitar.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 May 2018 18:22:00 -0400, Tony Cooper
><***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 May 2018 16:59:36 -0400, micky <***@bigfoot.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 12 May 2018 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Harrison
>>>Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
>>>>(the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
>>>>the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
>>>>a diamond).
>>>>
>>>>How do we play pool nowadays?
>>>
>>>More than one game can be played on a pool table. Just like you can
>>>play either right- or left-handed baseball on a baseball diamond.
>>>
>>
>>I watched a baseball game this morning. I have no idea if it was
>>left- or right-handed. The first baseman - my grandson - is
>>left-handed. The catcher - also my grandson - is right-handed.
>>The umpires were even-handed. Neither team was short-handed.
>>
>>We were handed a 10-9 loss.
>
>Did they run the bases clockwise or widdershins?

It would be under-handed to run the bases clockwise.

We might have pulled off a win if our third baseman was not cack
handed. He couldn't handle a pop fly that handed the other team a
chance for two runners to score.




--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
soup
2018-05-13 13:24:23 UTC
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On 12/05/2018 20:51, Harrison Hill wrote:
> In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
> (the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
> the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
> a diamond).
>
> How do we play pool nowadays?
>
> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.
>
In Scotland the 'only' version of pool I have experienced was using
fifteen balls in a triangle.

14 of them were wee balls (17) and stripes and the black making fifteen.
You were given either seven depending on what type (wee ball or stripe)
once you had potted all your allocated balls you had to pot the black
(automatic loss if you potted the black with any of your given seven on
the table).
There are lots of wee rules that apply in various pubs/clubs etc
"winner stays on"
"Two shots carry " etc
Lots of cries of "that doesn't apply here " "cheat" etc
Good idea to note any location specific rules before playing
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-13 21:52:54 UTC
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On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
> On 12/05/2018 20:51, Harrison Hill wrote:
>> In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
>> (the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
>> the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
>> a diamond).
>> How do we play pool nowadays?
>> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
>> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
>> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.
>>
> In Scotland the 'only' version of pool I have experienced was using
> fifteen balls in a triangle.
>
> 14 of them were wee balls (17) and stripes and the black making fifteen.

I would have had a much easier time with that if you'd written "1-7".

> You were given either seven depending on what type (wee ball or stripe)
> once you had potted all your allocated balls you had to pot the black
> (automatic loss if you potted the black with any of your given seven on
> the table).

That's eight-ball. The way it's played over here, you also lose
immediately if you scratch (sink/pocket/pot the cue ball) while shooting
at the eight.

>   There are lots of wee rules that apply in various pubs/clubs etc
> "winner stays on"

That's probably universal or close to it.

> "Two shots carry " etc

What does that mean?

> Lots of cries of "that doesn't apply here " "cheat" etc
> Good idea to note any location specific rules before playing

There's got to be a home-table advantage.

--
Jerry Friedman
soup
2018-05-13 23:31:40 UTC
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On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:

>> "Two shots carry " etc
>
> What does that mean?


If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets two visits
to the table.

In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first visit then
that is considered it, they do not get another go if on the other hand
they just use the first visit to set up a pot then they get their second
shot.

In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first visit they
still get their second visit, i.e "two shots carry".
Tony Cooper
2018-05-14 01:34:13 UTC
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On Mon, 14 May 2018 00:31:40 +0100, soup <***@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
>
>>> "Two shots carry " etc
>>
>> What does that mean?
>
>
>If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets two visits
>to the table.
>
>In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first visit then
>that is considered it, they do not get another go if on the other hand
>they just use the first visit to set up a pot then they get their second
>shot.
>
> In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first visit they
>still get their second visit, i.e "two shots carry".

"Visits to the table" is not an expression that I've seen/heard.
Context tells me it's the opportunity to take a turn, but it's not
usage I know of.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-14 05:21:44 UTC
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On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 6:34:16 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 14 May 2018 00:31:40 +0100, soup <***@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
> >
> >>> "Two shots carry " etc
> >>
> >> What does that mean?
> >
> >
> >If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets two visits
> >to the table.
> >
> >In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first visit then
> >that is considered it, they do not get another go if on the other hand
> >they just use the first visit to set up a pot then they get their second
> >shot.
> >
> > In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first visit they
> >still get their second visit, i.e "two shots carry".
>
> "Visits to the table" is not an expression that I've seen/heard.
> Context tells me it's the opportunity to take a turn, but it's not
> usage I know of.
>
It's used in snooker commentary, where the level of play is such that
a good player can clear the table in a single visit to the table.

The expression wasn't used when I played eight-ball in the
Vancouver Press Club, but when I was at my best, many years ago,
I could occasionally win a game in a single visit. Also known
as "running the table".

I still have a two-piece cue in a carrying case somewhere in a closet.
But I threw out my plastic trophies won in the club's annual tournament
many years ago.

bill
Anders D. Nygaard
2018-05-18 21:56:37 UTC
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Den 14-05-2018 kl. 07:21 skrev ***@shaw.ca:
> On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 6:34:16 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 May 2018 00:31:40 +0100, soup <***@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
>>>
>>>>> "Two shots carry " etc
>>>>
>>>> What does that mean?
>>>
>>>
>>> If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets two visits
>>> to the table.
>>>
>>> In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first visit then
>>> that is considered it, they do not get another go if on the other hand
>>> they just use the first visit to set up a pot then they get their second
>>> shot.
>>>
>>> In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first visit they
>>> still get their second visit, i.e "two shots carry".
>>
>> "Visits to the table" is not an expression that I've seen/heard.
>> Context tells me it's the opportunity to take a turn, but it's not
>> usage I know of.
>>
> It's used in snooker commentary, where the level of play is such that
> a good player can clear the table in a single visit to the table.

... or (equivalently) in a single break.

> The expression wasn't used when I played eight-ball in the
> Vancouver Press Club, but when I was at my best, many years ago,
> I could occasionally win a game in a single visit. Also known
> as "running the table".
>
> I still have a two-piece cue in a carrying case somewhere in a closet.
> But I threw out my plastic trophies won in the club's annual tournament
> many years ago.
>
> bill
>
>
HVS
2018-05-15 11:02:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 14 May 2018, Tony Cooper wrote

> On Mon, 14 May 2018 00:31:40 +0100, soup <***@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
>>
>>>> "Two shots carry " etc
>>>
>>> What does that mean?
>>
>> If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets two visits
>> to the table.
>>
>> In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first visit then
>> that is considered it, they do not get another go if on the other hand
>> they just use the first visit to set up a pot then they get their second
>> shot.
>>
>> In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first visit they
>> still get their second visit, i.e "two shots carry".
>
> "Visits to the table" is not an expression that I've seen/heard.
> Context tells me it's the opportunity to take a turn, but it's not
> usage I know of.

It makes very little difference in practice, but a "visit" is made up of
one or more shots.

Under current rules, if your opponent makes a foul, you get 2 visits: the
first visit is a single, free shot -- you can play this from where the cue
ball has landed, or move it anywhere behing the baulk line; you can shoot
in any direction; you can hit any ball, including the black; and you can
pot any ball other than the black. If nothing goes down, though, one ball
has to touch a cushion (explained below).

The second visit is a standard turn - you have to hit one of your own
colours, can't hit the black first, etc.


(OT) Some other differences from "old rules":

On the break, at least two balls other than the cue ball must pass an
imaginary line between the centre pockets. (Introduced to stop people just
tapping the pack -- to discourage them from playing snooker instead of
pool.)

After the cue ball hits one of your colours, you either need to pot a ball,
or have any ball -- any colour, or the black, or the cue ball -- touch a
cushion. (Introduced to stop people tucking the cue ball up against other
balls without moving them much -- again, to discourage them from playing
snooker instead of pool.)

An exception to the "must touch a cushion" rule is if you're completely
snookered on your colours - in that case, you claim it as a "total
snooker" and don't have to pot a ball or touch a cushion after you hit one
of your balls. (You have to claim the total snooker, in case it's
challenged. If you don't -- and even if it's patently obvious that it's a
total snooker, you remain subject to the "must touch a cushion" rule. And
yes: ill-feelings have ensued when this happens....)

It's not a foul if you pot one of your opponent's colours as well as one of
your own. This is called a "skill shot", and whilst at my level of play it
usually applies to a fluke, the intent is to give players a way to clear an
opponent's ball that's sitting over/blocking a pocket.

The "skill shot" rule also applies to the black: if you're playing your
last colour, and you pot that along with the black ball, you win. The
order in which the balls go down doesn't matter -- the black can go down
first, and your ball second, and you still win.

(That last rule can be significant: if your last ball is sitting in front
of the black, which in turn is sitting in front of a pocket, you win if you
can hit your ball in such a way as to put the black down and have your ball
follow it into the pocket.)

If your opponent fouls when you're on the black, you get two shots on the
black.

There are other wrinkles, of course, but those are probably the rules that
most frequently catch out people who are used to playing by "old rules".

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-16 03:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 4:02:20 AM UTC-7, HVS wrote:
> On 14 May 2018, Tony Cooper wrote
>
> > On Mon, 14 May 2018 00:31:40 +0100, soup <***@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
> >>
> >>>> "Two shots carry " etc
> >>>
> >>> What does that mean?
> >>
> >> If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets two visits
> >> to the table.
> >>
> >> In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first visit then
> >> that is considered it, they do not get another go if on the other hand
> >> they just use the first visit to set up a pot then they get their second
> >> shot.
> >>
> >> In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first visit they
> >> still get their second visit, i.e "two shots carry".
> >
> > "Visits to the table" is not an expression that I've seen/heard.
> > Context tells me it's the opportunity to take a turn, but it's not
> > usage I know of.
>
> It makes very little difference in practice, but a "visit" is made up of
> one or more shots.
>
> Under current rules, if your opponent makes a foul, you get 2 visits: the
> first visit is a single, free shot -- you can play this from where the cue
> ball has landed, or move it anywhere behing the baulk line; you can shoot
> in any direction; you can hit any ball, including the black; and you can
> pot any ball other than the black. If nothing goes down, though, one ball
> has to touch a cushion (explained below).
>
> The second visit is a standard turn - you have to hit one of your own
> colours, can't hit the black first, etc.
>
>
> (OT) Some other differences from "old rules":
>
> On the break, at least two balls other than the cue ball must pass an
> imaginary line between the centre pockets. (Introduced to stop people just
> tapping the pack -- to discourage them from playing snooker instead of
> pool.)
>
> After the cue ball hits one of your colours, you either need to pot a ball,
> or have any ball -- any colour, or the black, or the cue ball -- touch a
> cushion. (Introduced to stop people tucking the cue ball up against other
> balls without moving them much -- again, to discourage them from playing
> snooker instead of pool.)
>
> An exception to the "must touch a cushion" rule is if you're completely
> snookered on your colours - in that case, you claim it as a "total
> snooker" and don't have to pot a ball or touch a cushion after you hit one
> of your balls. (You have to claim the total snooker, in case it's
> challenged. If you don't -- and even if it's patently obvious that it's a
> total snooker, you remain subject to the "must touch a cushion" rule. And
> yes: ill-feelings have ensued when this happens....)
>
> It's not a foul if you pot one of your opponent's colours as well as one of
> your own. This is called a "skill shot", and whilst at my level of play it
> usually applies to a fluke, the intent is to give players a way to clear an
> opponent's ball that's sitting over/blocking a pocket.
>
> The "skill shot" rule also applies to the black: if you're playing your
> last colour, and you pot that along with the black ball, you win. The
> order in which the balls go down doesn't matter -- the black can go down
> first, and your ball second, and you still win.
>
> (That last rule can be significant: if your last ball is sitting in front
> of the black, which in turn is sitting in front of a pocket, you win if you
> can hit your ball in such a way as to put the black down and have your ball
> follow it into the pocket.)
>
> If your opponent fouls when you're on the black, you get two shots on the
> black.
>
> There are other wrinkles, of course, but those are probably the rules that
> most frequently catch out people who are used to playing by "old rules".
>
Whose rules are those, Harvey? Is there a national or international
organization that sets them? I'm asking because none of the ones you listed
were known to me when I last played eight-ball. That was a good 25 years ago,
so much might have changed since then. Also, I played most of my pool
in a bar where we had house rules and didn't follow any official rules.

bill
Harrison Hill
2018-05-16 05:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 04:29:46 UTC+1, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 4:02:20 AM UTC-7, HVS wrote:
> > On 14 May 2018, Tony Cooper wrote
> >
> > > On Mon, 14 May 2018 00:31:40 +0100, soup <***@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > >>> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>> "Two shots carry " etc
> > >>>
> > >>> What does that mean?
> > >>
> > >> If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets two visits
> > >> to the table.
> > >>
> > >> In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first visit then
> > >> that is considered it, they do not get another go if on the other hand
> > >> they just use the first visit to set up a pot then they get their second
> > >> shot.
> > >>
> > >> In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first visit they
> > >> still get their second visit, i.e "two shots carry".
> > >
> > > "Visits to the table" is not an expression that I've seen/heard.
> > > Context tells me it's the opportunity to take a turn, but it's not
> > > usage I know of.
> >
> > It makes very little difference in practice, but a "visit" is made up of
> > one or more shots.
> >
> > Under current rules, if your opponent makes a foul, you get 2 visits: the
> > first visit is a single, free shot -- you can play this from where the cue
> > ball has landed, or move it anywhere behing the baulk line; you can shoot
> > in any direction; you can hit any ball, including the black; and you can
> > pot any ball other than the black. If nothing goes down, though, one ball
> > has to touch a cushion (explained below).
> >
> > The second visit is a standard turn - you have to hit one of your own
> > colours, can't hit the black first, etc.
> >
> >
> > (OT) Some other differences from "old rules":
> >
> > On the break, at least two balls other than the cue ball must pass an
> > imaginary line between the centre pockets. (Introduced to stop people just
> > tapping the pack -- to discourage them from playing snooker instead of
> > pool.)
> >
> > After the cue ball hits one of your colours, you either need to pot a ball,
> > or have any ball -- any colour, or the black, or the cue ball -- touch a
> > cushion. (Introduced to stop people tucking the cue ball up against other
> > balls without moving them much -- again, to discourage them from playing
> > snooker instead of pool.)
> >
> > An exception to the "must touch a cushion" rule is if you're completely
> > snookered on your colours - in that case, you claim it as a "total
> > snooker" and don't have to pot a ball or touch a cushion after you hit one
> > of your balls. (You have to claim the total snooker, in case it's
> > challenged. If you don't -- and even if it's patently obvious that it's a
> > total snooker, you remain subject to the "must touch a cushion" rule. And
> > yes: ill-feelings have ensued when this happens....)
> >
> > It's not a foul if you pot one of your opponent's colours as well as one of
> > your own. This is called a "skill shot", and whilst at my level of play it
> > usually applies to a fluke, the intent is to give players a way to clear an
> > opponent's ball that's sitting over/blocking a pocket.
> >
> > The "skill shot" rule also applies to the black: if you're playing your
> > last colour, and you pot that along with the black ball, you win. The
> > order in which the balls go down doesn't matter -- the black can go down
> > first, and your ball second, and you still win.
> >
> > (That last rule can be significant: if your last ball is sitting in front
> > of the black, which in turn is sitting in front of a pocket, you win if you
> > can hit your ball in such a way as to put the black down and have your ball
> > follow it into the pocket.)
> >
> > If your opponent fouls when you're on the black, you get two shots on the
> > black.
> >
> > There are other wrinkles, of course, but those are probably the rules that
> > most frequently catch out people who are used to playing by "old rules".
> >
> Whose rules are those, Harvey? Is there a national or international
> organization that sets them? I'm asking because none of the ones you listed
> were known to me when I last played eight-ball. That was a good 25 years ago,
> so much might have changed since then. Also, I played most of my pool
> in a bar where we had house rules and didn't follow any official rules.

In Britain that game is now called "black ball", and here are
its rules:

<http://www.blackball.uk/2016/02/blackball-rules-visual-guide.html>
soup
2018-05-16 10:02:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 16/05/2018 04:29, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 4:02:20 AM UTC-7, HVS wrote:

>>
>> (OT) Some other differences from "old rules":

>> There are other wrinkles, of course, but those are probably the rules that
>> most frequently catch out people who are used to playing by "old rules".
>>
> Whose rules are those, Harvey? Is there a national or international
> organization that sets them? I'm asking because none of the ones you listed
> were known to me when I last played eight-ball. That was a good 25 years ago,
> so much might have changed since then. Also, I played most of my pool
> in a bar where we had house rules and didn't follow any official rules.

Harvey 'says' a couple of times that these are new rules (differences
from old rules) so probably not the rules you used 25 years ago.

House rules are all well and good if you know them but when you have
multiple pubs within a small area all using a different set
of rules... That way lies recriminations, arguments, fights, accusations
of cheating etc, etc.

C.F. Every family has different rules for Monopoly. Trying to play the
new girlfriends parents can end a very happy union ,( DAMHIK ).
HVS
2018-05-16 10:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 15 May 2018 20:29:44 -0700 (PDT), ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 4:02:20 AM UTC-7, HVS wrote:

[snip details]

> > There are other wrinkles, of course, but those are probably the
rules that
> > most frequently catch out people who are used to playing by "old
rules".
> >
> Whose rules are those, Harvey? Is there a national or international
> organization that sets them? I'm asking because none of the ones
you listed
> were known to me when I last played eight-ball. That was a good 25
years ago,
> so much might have changed since then. Also, I played most of my
pool
> in a bar where we had house rules and didn't follow any official
rules.

There are two standard sets of rules - the World Eight-ball Pool
Federation (WEPF), and the World Pool-Billiards Association (WPA).

They're fairly similar - some differences on what happens on a foul -
but over here the WPA rules are generally used (the ones I've
explained are those ones).

I think they standardised them in the early 2000s; I hadn't played
for years until about 10 years ago, by which time I'd forgotten most
of the old rules, so learning the current rules wasn't really a
problem.
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-16 22:34:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 at 3:11:58 AM UTC-7, HVS wrote:
> On Tue, 15 May 2018 20:29:44 -0700 (PDT), ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 4:02:20 AM UTC-7, HVS wrote:
>
> [snip details]
>
> > > There are other wrinkles, of course, but those are probably the
> rules that
> > > most frequently catch out people who are used to playing by "old
> rules".
> > >
> > Whose rules are those, Harvey? Is there a national or international
> > organization that sets them? I'm asking because none of the ones
> you listed
> > were known to me when I last played eight-ball. That was a good 25
> years ago,
> > so much might have changed since then. Also, I played most of my
> pool
> > in a bar where we had house rules and didn't follow any official
> rules.
>
> There are two standard sets of rules - the World Eight-ball Pool
> Federation (WEPF), and the World Pool-Billiards Association (WPA).
>
> They're fairly similar - some differences on what happens on a foul -
> but over here the WPA rules are generally used (the ones I've
> explained are those ones).
>
> I think they standardised them in the early 2000s; I hadn't played
> for years until about 10 years ago, by which time I'd forgotten most
> of the old rules, so learning the current rules wasn't really a
> problem.

Thanks for that. The rules link you provided in another post shows
rules quite similar to what I used to play, though a bit more detailed.

The rules Harrison Hill linked to earlier are for quite a different
game, with seven solid red balls, seven solid yellow balls and a black.
I can see how it is derived from eight-ball, but it eliminates the
choices eight-ball players have to play nine-ball, cutthroat and
other variations that require the balls to be numbered.

bill
HVS
2018-05-17 11:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 16 May 2018, wrote

> On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 at 3:11:58 AM UTC-7, HVS wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 May 2018 20:29:44 -0700 (PDT), ***@shaw.ca wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 4:02:20 AM UTC-7, HVS wrote:
>>
>> [snip details]
>>
>>>> There are other wrinkles, of course, but those are probably the
>> rules that
>>>> most frequently catch out people who are used to playing by "old
>> rules".
>>>>
>>> Whose rules are those, Harvey? Is there a national or international
>>> organization that sets them? I'm asking because none of the ones
>> you listed
>>> were known to me when I last played eight-ball. That was a good 25
>> years ago,
>>> so much might have changed since then. Also, I played most of my
>> pool
>>> in a bar where we had house rules and didn't follow any official
>> rules.
>>
>> There are two standard sets of rules - the World Eight-ball Pool
>> Federation (WEPF), and the World Pool-Billiards Association (WPA).
>>
>> They're fairly similar - some differences on what happens on a foul -
>> but over here the WPA rules are generally used (the ones I've
>> explained are those ones).
>>
>> I think they standardised them in the early 2000s; I hadn't played
>> for years until about 10 years ago, by which time I'd forgotten most
>> of the old rules, so learning the current rules wasn't really a
>> problem.
>
> Thanks for that. The rules link you provided in another post shows
> rules quite similar to what I used to play, though a bit more detailed.
>
> The rules Harrison Hill linked to earlier are for quite a different
> game, with seven solid red balls, seven solid yellow balls and a black.
> I can see how it is derived from eight-ball, but it eliminates the
> choices eight-ball players have to play nine-ball, cutthroat and
> other variations that require the balls to be numbered.

I should have clarified that it's the game with solid colours (red and
yellow) that we play with under the WPA rules. You're absolutely right, of
course: the lack of numbers on the balls eliminates the number-based pool
games, leaving blackball/eight-ball as default.

ObAUE. Upthread somewhere, an alternative name for eight-ball was referred
to "stripes and solids". The name I was familiar with growing up in Canada
(1960s) was "spots and stripes".

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
Theodore Heis.sig
2018-05-16 12:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 15 May 2018 12:02:13 +0100,
HVS <***@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
> On 14 May 2018, Tony Cooper wrote
> > On Mon, 14 May 2018 00:31:40 +0100, soup <***@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
> >>
> >>>> "Two shots carry " etc
> >>>
> >>> What does that mean?
> >>
> >> If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets
> >> two visits to the table.
> >>
> >> In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first
> >> visit then that is considered it, they do not get another go
> >> if on the other hand they just use the first visit to set up
> >> a pot then they get their second shot.
> >>
> >> In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first
> >> visit they still get their second visit, i.e "two shots
> >> carry".
> >
> > "Visits to the table" is not an expression that I've
> > seen/heard. Context tells me it's the opportunity to take a
> > turn, but it's not usage I know of.
>
> It makes very little difference in practice, but a "visit" is
> made up of one or more shots.
>
> Under current rules, if your opponent makes a foul, you get 2
> visits: the first visit is a single, free shot -- you can play
> this from where the cue ball has landed, or move it anywhere
> behing the baulk line; you can shoot in any direction; you
> can hit any ball, including the black; and you can pot any
> ball other than the black. If nothing goes down, though, one
> ball has to touch a cushion (explained below).
>
> The second visit is a standard turn - you have to hit one of
> your own colours, can't hit the black first, etc.

Very interesting. I spent a lot of time playing pool back in the
70s and early 80s, and in that time (or since) never heard the
"Two shots carry" terminology. I also can't recall ever seeing
this particular rule applied or even mentioned. The ability to
"spot" the cue ball wherever one wished (behind the balk line, of
course) was considered enough of an advantage, I guess.

My knowledge of the rules at the time was based strictly on
experience, but it was experience from bars (and from friends and
family) in at least three different U.S. states--so I think the
vagaries of "house rules" mentioned elsethread likely cancelled
each other out for the most part.

Most of the folks I played with had a couple of main variants, one
being "call shot" and the other what we lovingly called "slop."
In the first variant, you had to call the shot you intended to
make before taking it. If you didn't make the shot it was a
fault, and the other player took their turn. In slop, if you sank
one of your own balls, you kept going. Usually in slop, it was
still expected that one call the shot intended for the eight ball.


> (OT) Some other differences from "old rules":
>
> On the break, at least two balls other than the cue ball must
> pass an imaginary line between the centre pockets. (Introduced
> to stop people just tapping the pack -- to discourage them from
> playing snooker instead of pool.)

Yes, that one is new to me as well. Most places I played (bars,
pool halls, and homes) had a rule that if the eight ball went in a
pocket on the break, that player won the game. Is anything like
that in the current rules?


> After the cue ball hits one of your colours, you either need to
> pot a ball, or have any ball -- any colour, or the black, or
> the cue ball -- touch a cushion. (Introduced to stop people
> tucking the cue ball up against other balls without moving them
> much -- again, to discourage them from playing snooker instead
> of pool.)

New to me as well. I can definitely remember using this defensive
strategy (and having it used against me). If one was halfway
decent at bank shots, it wasn't a huge obstacle.


> An exception to the "must touch a cushion" rule is if you're
> completely snookered on your colours - in that case, you claim
> it as a "total snooker" and don't have to pot a ball or touch a
> cushion after you hit one of your balls. (You have to claim the
> total snooker, in case it's challenged. If you don't -- and
> even if it's patently obvious that it's a total snooker, you
> remain subject to the "must touch a cushion" rule. And yes:
> ill-feelings have ensued when this happens....)
>
> It's not a foul if you pot one of your opponent's colours as
> well as one of your own. This is called a "skill shot", and
> whilst at my level of play it usually applies to a fluke, the
> intent is to give players a way to clear an opponent's ball
> that's sitting over/blocking a pocket.
>
> The "skill shot" rule also applies to the black: if you're
> playing your last colour, and you pot that along with the black
> ball, you win. The order in which the balls go down doesn't
> matter -- the black can go down first, and your ball second,
> and you still win.
>
> (That last rule can be significant: if your last ball is
> sitting in front of the black, which in turn is sitting in
> front of a pocket, you win if you can hit your ball in such a
> way as to put the black down and have your ball follow it into
> the pocket.)
>
> If your opponent fouls when you're on the black, you get two
> shots on the black.

These are all previously unknown to me as well.

--
Ted Heise <***@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA
HVS
2018-05-16 14:50:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 16 May 2018, Theodore Heis.sig wrote

> On Tue, 15 May 2018 12:02:13 +0100,
> HVS <***@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 14 May 2018, Tony Cooper wrote
>>> On Mon, 14 May 2018 00:31:40 +0100, soup <***@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> "Two shots carry " etc
>>>>>
>>>>> What does that mean?
>>>>
>>>> If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets
>>>> two visits to the table.
>>>>
>>>> In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first
>>>> visit then that is considered it, they do not get another go
>>>> if on the other hand they just use the first visit to set up
>>>> a pot then they get their second shot.
>>>>
>>>> In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first
>>>> visit they still get their second visit, i.e "two shots
>>>> carry".
>>>
>>> "Visits to the table" is not an expression that I've
>>> seen/heard. Context tells me it's the opportunity to take a
>>> turn, but it's not usage I know of.
>>
>> It makes very little difference in practice, but a "visit" is
>> made up of one or more shots.
>>
>> Under current rules, if your opponent makes a foul, you get 2
>> visits: the first visit is a single, free shot -- you can play
>> this from where the cue ball has landed, or move it anywhere
>> behing the baulk line; you can shoot in any direction; you
>> can hit any ball, including the black; and you can pot any
>> ball other than the black. If nothing goes down, though, one
>> ball has to touch a cushion (explained below).
>>
>> The second visit is a standard turn - you have to hit one of
>> your own colours, can't hit the black first, etc.
>
> Very interesting. I spent a lot of time playing pool back in the
> 70s and early 80s, and in that time (or since) never heard the
> "Two shots carry" terminology. I also can't recall ever seeing
> this particular rule applied or even mentioned. The ability to
> "spot" the cue ball wherever one wished (behind the balk line, of
> course) was considered enough of an advantage, I guess.
>
> My knowledge of the rules at the time was based strictly on
> experience, but it was experience from bars (and from friends and
> family) in at least three different U.S. states--so I think the
> vagaries of "house rules" mentioned elsethread likely cancelled
> each other out for the most part.
>
> Most of the folks I played with had a couple of main variants, one
> being "call shot" and the other what we lovingly called "slop."
> In the first variant, you had to call the shot you intended to
> make before taking it. If you didn't make the shot it was a
> fault, and the other player took their turn. In slop, if you sank
> one of your own balls, you kept going. Usually in slop, it was
> still expected that one call the shot intended for the eight ball.
>
>
>> (OT) Some other differences from "old rules":
>>
>> On the break, at least two balls other than the cue ball must
>> pass an imaginary line between the centre pockets. (Introduced
>> to stop people just tapping the pack -- to discourage them from
>> playing snooker instead of pool.)
>
> Yes, that one is new to me as well. Most places I played (bars,
> pool halls, and homes) had a rule that if the eight ball went in a
> pocket on the break, that player won the game. Is anything like
> that in the current rules?

No: the rule now is that if the black/8-ball goes down on the break, it's
neither a foul nor a win: the balls are re-racked, and the same player
breaks again, without a penalty.

This only works, of course, if you have a way to retrieve the black.

In the club where I play, the table is the usual coin-operated thing; league
matches don't pay per play, though, and thus have the keys to the slide that
holds the potted balls, so the black can be retrieved that way. When we're
paying for just normal/non-league games, the bar holds the keys and passes
them over if the black goes down on the break.

I've not been in the situation of playing on a coin-operated table which
didn't accommodate this, so I've got no idea what happens if the pub/club
take a hard line which doesn't allow a free re-rack. (Probably "loses all
future trade for regular players".)

>> After the cue ball hits one of your colours, you either need to
>> pot a ball, or have any ball -- any colour, or the black, or
>> the cue ball -- touch a cushion. (Introduced to stop people
>> tucking the cue ball up against other balls without moving them
>> much -- again, to discourage them from playing snooker instead
>> of pool.)
>
> New to me as well. I can definitely remember using this defensive
> strategy (and having it used against me). If one was halfway
> decent at bank shots, it wasn't a huge obstacle.
>
>
>> An exception to the "must touch a cushion" rule is if you're
>> completely snookered on your colours - in that case, you claim
>> it as a "total snooker" and don't have to pot a ball or touch a
>> cushion after you hit one of your balls. (You have to claim the
>> total snooker, in case it's challenged. If you don't -- and
>> even if it's patently obvious that it's a total snooker, you
>> remain subject to the "must touch a cushion" rule. And yes:
>> ill-feelings have ensued when this happens....)
>>
>> It's not a foul if you pot one of your opponent's colours as
>> well as one of your own. This is called a "skill shot", and
>> whilst at my level of play it usually applies to a fluke, the
>> intent is to give players a way to clear an opponent's ball
>> that's sitting over/blocking a pocket.
>>
>> The "skill shot" rule also applies to the black: if you're
>> playing your last colour, and you pot that along with the black
>> ball, you win. The order in which the balls go down doesn't
>> matter -- the black can go down first, and your ball second,
>> and you still win.
>>
>> (That last rule can be significant: if your last ball is
>> sitting in front of the black, which in turn is sitting in
>> front of a pocket, you win if you can hit your ball in such a
>> way as to put the black down and have your ball follow it into
>> the pocket.)
>>
>> If your opponent fouls when you're on the black, you get two
>> shots on the black.
>
> These are all previously unknown to me as well.

The WPA (World Pool-Billiard Association) rules that are used where I play
(both league and friendly games) were standardised in 2005, with some minor
tweaks since then. There are some occasional players who use the pre-2005
rules, and I'm happy to play that way if someone wishes. Obviously, though,
those of us who play in league games prefer to use the current rules for
friendly/practice games. (I didn't know the dates off the top of my head -- I
checked on them before replying to billvan.)

I hadn't played pool for some years (15 or so) before starting to play again
about 8 or 10 years ago. By then, I'd forgotten most of the detailed rules
anyway, so learning the then-recently-introduced "new rules" was fairly easy
for me.

The rules can be found at http://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-14 14:50:03 UTC
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Raw Message
On 5/13/18 5:31 PM, soup wrote:
> On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
>
>>> "Two shots carry " etc
>>
>> What does that mean?
>
>
> If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets two visits
> to the table.

Thanks. I've never heard of a rule like that, but my experience is
limited, and it does make sense in a bar where you can't take a ball out.

> In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first visit then
> that is considered it, they do not get another go if on the other hand
> they just use the first visit to set up a pot then they get their second
> shot.
>
>   In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first visit they
> still get their second visit, i.e "two shots carry".
It's all fitting together.

--
Jerry Friedman
soup
2018-05-14 15:40:47 UTC
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Raw Message
On 14/05/2018 15:50, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>it does make sense in a bar where you can't take a ball out.

Usually (in coin operated tables any way) the cue ball is of a slightly
smaller diameter so it is not retained by the table on it being potted .
This means potting the cue ball is not the end of the game.

Can you imagine the scattered bars if the cueball went in on the first
'break' and that was the end of the game?
Tony Cooper
2018-05-14 16:41:48 UTC
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On Mon, 14 May 2018 16:40:47 +0100, soup <***@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 14/05/2018 15:50, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>it does make sense in a bar where you can't take a ball out.
>
>Usually (in coin operated tables any way) the cue ball is of a slightly
>smaller diameter so it is not retained by the table on it being potted .
>This means potting the cue ball is not the end of the game.
>

Understood.

It's not the cue ball that cannot be retrieved in a coin-operated
table. If you sink/pot a ball and the cue ball is also sunk/potted on
the same shot, on a regular table the cue ball and the other ball are
returned to play. On a coin-operated table, only the cue ball can be
retrieved.

The term "pot" is not normally used in the US. It may be used by pool
aficionados who are exposed to the UK term, but not by most of us.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
soup
2018-05-14 17:52:23 UTC
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Raw Message
On 14/05/2018 17:41, Tony Cooper wrote:

> The term "pot" is not normally used in the US. It may be used by pool
> aficionados who are exposed to the UK term, but not by most of us.

I am no pool aficionado I use the terms pot, potted, sunk, sink; bag,
pocket; cushions, rubbers (no not that kind) etc interchangeably,
nothing should be inferred from anything I 'say'.
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-14 18:20:22 UTC
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On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 7:50:06 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 5/13/18 5:31 PM, soup wrote:
> > On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
> >
> >>> "Two shots carry " etc
> >>
> >> What does that mean?
> >
> >
> > If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets two visits
> > to the table.
>
> Thanks. I've never heard of a rule like that, but my experience is
> limited, and it does make sense in a bar where you can't take a ball out.

As noted by "soup", the cue ball is slightly smaller than the other balls,
and it will be returned by coin tables.
>
> > In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first visit then
> > that is considered it, they do not get another go if on the other hand
> > they just use the first visit to set up a pot then they get their second
> > shot.
> >
> >   In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first visit they
> > still get their second visit, i.e "two shots carry".
> It's all fitting together.
>
It sounds like overkill to me. Losing your turn is penalty enough
for a "scratch". Losing two turns, which is what "two shots carry" amounts
to, will usually cost you the game if you're up against competent opponents.

An afterthought, however: If it's one of those coin tables, which I
have rarely played on, and you've sunk one of your balls and the cue
ball on the same shot, then you'd still have the advantage of having
sunk a ball that can't be retrieved. Then I suppose the "two shots carry"
rule could be seen as compensation. But it still gives the opponent
the opportunity to win the game at his next two turns. It would be
more fair, I think, to remove one of the opponent's balls from
the table. Then the penalty equals the advantage of having sunk
a ball illegally.

bill
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-14 18:35:50 UTC
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Raw Message
On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 12:20:25 PM UTC-6, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 7:50:06 AM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On 5/13/18 5:31 PM, soup wrote:
> > > On 13/05/2018 22:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > >> On 5/13/18 7:24 AM, soup wrote:
> > >
> > >>> "Two shots carry " etc
> > >>
> > >> What does that mean?
> > >
> > >
> > > If one of the players sink the cue ball the other player gets two visits
> > > to the table.
> >
> > Thanks. I've never heard of a rule like that, but my experience is
> > limited, and it does make sense in a bar where you can't take a ball out.
>
> As noted by "soup", the cue ball is slightly smaller than the other balls,
> and it will be returned by coin tables.

As noted by Tony, I was talking about retrieving the other balls.

> > > In some places if they successfully pot a ball on their first visit then
> > > that is considered it, they do not get another go if on the other hand
> > > they just use the first visit to set up a pot then they get their second
> > > shot.
> > >
> > >   In other places it doesn't matter what happens on the first visit they
> > > still get their second visit, i.e "two shots carry".
> > It's all fitting together.
> >
> It sounds like overkill to me. Losing your turn is penalty enough
> for a "scratch". Losing two turns, which is what "two shots carry" amounts
> to, will usually cost you the game if you're up against competent opponents.
>
> An afterthought, however: If it's one of those coin tables, which I
> have rarely played on,

Neither have I. I find them annoying, not that I'd be going to
bars to play pool anyway.

> and you've sunk one of your balls and the cue
> ball on the same shot, then you'd still have the advantage of having
> sunk a ball that can't be retrieved. Then I suppose the "two shots carry"
> rule could be seen as compensation.

Exactly my thought. And the normal penalty for scratching without
sinking a ball is having one of your balls put back on the table.
In that situation too the "extra shot" rule would be compensation.

> But it still gives the opponent
> the opportunity to win the game at his next two turns. It would be
> more fair, I think, to remove one of the opponent's balls from
> the table. Then the penalty equals the advantage of having sunk
> a ball illegally.

The problem with that is that it deprives the opponent of a shot
he paid for. Since the way the tables work is that the players pay
to play fifteen balls, no more, I think players would want it to
be no less--especially since the player who gets less is the one
who didn't commit a "foul". I suppose, though, that someone who'd
placed a considerable bet on a game might be happy with any
advantage.

--
Jerry Friedman
Tak To
2018-05-14 16:25:14 UTC
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Raw Message
On 5/12/2018 3:51 PM, Harrison Hill wrote:
> In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
> (the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
> the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
> a diamond).
>
> How do we play pool nowadays?

I don't really play pool these days, but in my college years
in the 70's it was mainly straight pool among my usual group
of friends.

> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.

"Eight Ball" -- popular then and now. However, in our circle
we only played it when women were present.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tony Cooper
2018-05-14 16:45:12 UTC
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On Mon, 14 May 2018 12:25:14 -0400, Tak To <***@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

>On 5/12/2018 3:51 PM, Harrison Hill wrote:
>> In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
>> (the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
>> the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
>> a diamond).
>>
>> How do we play pool nowadays?
>
>I don't really play pool these days, but in my college years
>in the 70's it was mainly straight pool among my usual group
>of friends.
>
>> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
>> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
>> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.
>
>"Eight Ball" -- popular then and now. However, in our circle
>we only played it when women were present.

Not so-far mentioned is bumper pool. When I was in the Army there was
a bumper pool table in the Day Room, and I became fairly proficient in
bumper pool. We have a bumper pool table at home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumper_pool

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-14 18:39:31 UTC
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Raw Message
On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 10:25:18 AM UTC-6, Tak To wrote:
> On 5/12/2018 3:51 PM, Harrison Hill wrote:
> > In America at college we played a pool game called "15 ball",
> > (the 15 balls formed a triangle). In the bars at that time (in
> > the early 1970s) they instead played "9 ball" (the 9 balls forming
> > a diamond).
> >
> > How do we play pool nowadays?
>
> I don't really play pool these days, but in my college years
> in the 70's it was mainly straight pool among my usual group
> of friends.
>
> > In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
> > which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
> > had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.
>
> "Eight Ball" -- popular then and now.

Eight-ball is different from nine-ball. In nine-ball you're not
shooting at just half the balls. Instead the sequence of the numbers
is important, although as described below it's not the way Harrison or
I thought.

http://www.vnea.com/111111new-page.aspx

> However, in our circle
> we only played it when women were present.

Well!

--
Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader
2018-05-14 19:32:18 UTC
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Raw Message
Harrison Hill:
>>> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
>>> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
>>> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.

Tak To:
>> "Eight Ball" -- popular then and now.

I believe Tak means to say that 8-ball is the proper name, or
the name he or she knows, for the game Harrison calls 15-ball.
It is so named because, after you sink all the solids (numbered
1-7) or all the stripes (numbered 9-15), you must sink the 8-ball
(which is solid black, but does not count as a "solid") to win.
Until then you don't want to hit the 8-ball, let alone sink it --
hence the phrase "behind the 8-ball" for a difficult situation,
describing the a position analogous to being "snookered" in snooker.

The coin-operated pool tables that I've used in North America have
always had a set of 15 numbered balls suitable for 8-ball. The ones
I've used in England allow the same game to be played, but their
balls have no numbers -- there are 7 red balls, 7 yellow, and one
black. I presume the some other name than "8-ball" is used for the
game there, but I don't know what it is.

(Coin-operated tables are best if, like me, you and your opponent are
no good at the game. The more trouble you have sinking your shots,
the longer you get to play for the same money. This contrasts with
arcade games like pinball where a high skill level tends to give
more playing time.)

The numbered balls allow for rules requiring a player to call their
shot, so that sinking a ball doesn't count unless you do it in the
way that you said you would: not possible on a coin-operated table.
They also allow for other games than 8-ball, such as straight pool,
which I have not played. I believe straight pool is the game played
in the movie "The Hustler" and also in one scene in "The American
President".


Jerry Friedman:
> Eight-ball is different from nine-ball. In nine-ball you're not
> shooting at just half the balls. Instead the sequence of the numbers
> is important...

9-ball is the game played in the movie "The Color of Money", the sequel
to "The Hustler". Apparently gamblers like it because it's a much
shorter game.
--
Mark Brader | "Of course, if you only see one movie this year,
***@vex.net | you're in the wrong newsgroup."
Toronto | --Chris Pierson, rec.arts.movies.past-films

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Tak To
2018-05-15 05:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/14/2018 3:32 PM, Mark Brader wrote:
> Harrison Hill:
>>>> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
>>>> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
>>>> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.
>
> Tak To:
>>> "Eight Ball" -- popular then and now.
>
> I believe Tak means to say that 8-ball is the proper name, or
> the name he or she knows, for the game Harrison calls 15-ball.

Yes, thanks. I inserted my response at the wrong place.

> It is so named because, after you sink all the solids (numbered
> 1-7) or all the stripes (numbered 9-15), you must sink the 8-ball
> (which is solid black, but does not count as a "solid") to win.
> Until then you don't want to hit the 8-ball, let alone sink it --
> hence the phrase "behind the 8-ball" for a difficult situation,
> describing the a position analogous to being "snookered" in snooker.
>
> The coin-operated pool tables that I've used in North America have
> always had a set of 15 numbered balls suitable for 8-ball. The ones
> I've used in England allow the same game to be played, but their
> balls have no numbers -- there are 7 red balls, 7 yellow, and one
> black. I presume the some other name than "8-ball" is used for the
> game there, but I don't know what it is.
>
> (Coin-operated tables are best if, like me, you and your opponent are
> no good at the game. The more trouble you have sinking your shots,
> the longer you get to play for the same money. This contrasts with
> arcade games like pinball where a high skill level tends to give
> more playing time.)
>
> The numbered balls allow for rules requiring a player to call their
> shot, so that sinking a ball doesn't count unless you do it in the
> way that you said you would: not possible on a coin-operated table.
> They also allow for other games than 8-ball, such as straight pool,
> which I have not played. I believe straight pool is the game played
> in the movie "The Hustler" and also in one scene in "The American
> President".
>
> Jerry Friedman:
>> Eight-ball is different from nine-ball. In nine-ball you're not
>> shooting at just half the balls. Instead the sequence of the numbers
>> is important...
>
> 9-ball is the game played in the movie "The Color of Money", the sequel
> to "The Hustler". Apparently gamblers like it because it's a much
> shorter game.

And in /The Hustler/ the game was straight pool.

And what a film that was! What a cast -- Paul Newman, Jackie
Gleason, Piper Laurie, George C Scott!

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-16 22:59:31 UTC
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On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 1:32:42 AM UTC-4, Tak To wrote:
> On 5/14/2018 3:32 PM, Mark Brader wrote:
> > Harrison Hill:
> >>>> In "15 ball" you were given "stripes" or "solids", depending on
> >>>> which ball you or your opponent first sank. In "9 ball" the balls
> >>>> had to be sunk in sequence. Whoever sank the 9-ball won.
> >
> > Tak To:
> >>> "Eight Ball" -- popular then and now.
> >
> > I believe Tak means to say that 8-ball is the proper name, or
> > the name he or she knows, for the game Harrison calls 15-ball.
>
> Yes, thanks. I inserted my response at the wrong place.
...

Ah, I should have guessed that.

--
Jerry Friedman
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