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Morse
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Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-12 03:33:19 UTC
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This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to see
those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him bedridden with
a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a puzzle and taking up
a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859." The two layers of flashback
-- the events surrounding the death, and the trial (with a fair-minded judge)
were well done, but -- just for me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the
book that intrigued Morse, who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American
until they said so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.

Morse's boss was trying to get him to retire two years early, Morse was suspicious
of Lewis (who was out of town), and he was lent a Constable Kershaw to do the
legwork, who during the course of which flirted with a librarian, a Miss Ho.

Unfortunately they're showing the two-parters one episode per week instead of
back to back as they're doing the Holmses.

And next Friday evening I'm expecting to go to MoMA for the Frank Lloyd Wright
show! (Celebrating the transfer of his archives from Taliesin West to the Avery
Library of Art and Architecture at Columbia (the materials on paper) and MoMA
(the models and other realia).
Tony Cooper
2017-08-12 04:36:11 UTC
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to see
those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him bedridden with
a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a puzzle and taking up
a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859." The two layers of flashback
-- the events surrounding the death, and the trial (with a fair-minded judge)
were well done, but -- just for me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the
book that intrigued Morse, who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American
until they said so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.

The actress who plays that part is an American, Lisa Eichhorn. Ms
Eichhorn was born in Glens Falls, NY, USA. She has worked on both
sides of the pond appearing in "Law and Order" (1998), "Chicago Hope"
(1998) and "Touched by An Angel" (1998). I mention the dates because
her appearance in "Morse" was in 1998. She attended university in the
UK, studied acting in the UK, and has appeared in several UK movie/tv
productions.

She was up for the role of "Diane" in "Cheers" but lost out to Shelley
Long. "Cheers", for those that don't know the show, was set in
Boston.

So...one of two things...either she has spent so much time abroad that
her accent has melded into something neither American nor British, or
you have some preconception of what an American sounds like that is
far too rigid. "Tin ear" comes to mind.

Why on earth, though, do you think that a professor at Boston
University is necessarily from the Boston area or even an American by
birth?

A recent addition to B.U.'s faculty is Elizabeth Coppock who was
formerly an Assistant Professor of Linguistics at University of
Gothenburg, Sweden, worked in the Department of General Linguistics at
Heinrich Heine University, Duesseldorf, Linguistics Department at the
University of Texas at Austin, and has a B.A. in Linguistics from
Northwestern University in Illinois.

What accent do you think she has?

Take a look at the faculty list of the Linguistics staff at B.U. you
find most of them are from places other than Boston.

I'm sure this is true of any of the departments at B.U.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
And next Friday evening I'm expecting to go to MoMA for the Frank Lloyd Wright
show! (Celebrating the transfer of his archives from Taliesin West to the Avery
Library of Art and Architecture at Columbia (the materials on paper) and MoMA
(the models and other realia).
That should be an interesting evening. Does your bus pass include
Jersey City to Manhattan?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Lewis
2017-08-12 07:28:53 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to see
those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him bedridden with
a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a puzzle and taking up
a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859." The two layers of flashback
Interesting. For as little Inspector Morse as I've seen, I saw that one.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
-- the events surrounding the death, and the trial (with a fair-minded judge)
were well done, but -- just for me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the
book that intrigued Morse, who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American
until they said so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
A professorship at BU would in no way imply a Boston accent.
Post by Tony Cooper
So...one of two things...either she has spent so much time abroad that
her accent has melded into something neither American nor British, or
you have some preconception of what an American sounds like that is
far too rigid. "Tin ear" comes to mind.
Especially as there are dozens of "American" accents.
Post by Tony Cooper
Why on earth, though, do you think that a professor at Boston
University is necessarily from the Boston area or even an American by
birth?
A recent addition to B.U.'s faculty is Elizabeth Coppock who was
formerly an Assistant Professor of Linguistics at University of
Gothenburg, Sweden, worked in the Department of General Linguistics at
Heinrich Heine University, Duesseldorf, Linguistics Department at the
University of Texas at Austin, and has a B.A. in Linguistics from
Northwestern University in Illinois.
What accent do you think she has?
Take a look at the faculty list of the Linguistics staff at B.U. you
find most of them are from places other than Boston.
To be fair, this wasn't a linguist, but I doubt you'd find much
difference int eh criminology professors.
Post by Tony Cooper
I'm sure this is true of any of the departments at B.U.
I bet some of the faculty are even from the UK!
--
'I don't like to ask them questions.' 'Why not?' 'They might give me
answers. And then what would I do?'
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-12 13:24:21 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to see
those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him bedridden with
a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a puzzle and taking up
a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859." The two layers of flashback
-- the events surrounding the death, and the trial (with a fair-minded judge)
were well done, but -- just for me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the
book that intrigued Morse, who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American
until they said so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
The actress who plays that part is an American, Lisa Eichhorn. Ms
Eichhorn was born in Glens Falls, NY, USA. She has worked on both
sides of the pond appearing in "Law and Order" (1998), "Chicago Hope"
(1998) and "Touched by An Angel" (1998). I mention the dates because
her appearance in "Morse" was in 1998. She attended university in the
UK, studied acting in the UK, and has appeared in several UK movie/tv
productions.
She was up for the role of "Diane" in "Cheers" but lost out to Shelley
Long. "Cheers", for those that don't know the show, was set in
Boston.
So...one of two things...either she has spent so much time abroad that
her accent has melded into something neither American nor British, or
you have some preconception of what an American sounds like that is
far too rigid. "Tin ear" comes to mind.
God you're logorrrhoeic and dumb. Glens Falls, NY, is in "North Country," New
York, within the Hudson Valley dialect area, akin to the NYC dialect with its
Dutch substratum. If she is a native of that area, then, as you suggest, her
native accent was beaten out of her by all those British drama schools, or
maybe the director insisted that she talk like a British idea of an American
stereotype. As for Boston, she introduced herself as from "Bahston" University,
a nod toward a "Boston accent." (The opposite of saying "Chicahgo," which is
the non-native pronunciation of the city's name, which is "Chicawgo.")
Post by Tony Cooper
Why on earth, though, do you think that a professor at Boston
University is necessarily from the Boston area or even an American by
birth?
Because she attempted one touch of sounding like she was.
Post by Tony Cooper
A recent addition to B.U.'s faculty is Elizabeth Coppock who was
formerly an Assistant Professor of Linguistics at University of
Gothenburg, Sweden, worked in the Department of General Linguistics at
Heinrich Heine University, Duesseldorf, Linguistics Department at the
University of Texas at Austin, and has a B.A. in Linguistics from
Northwestern University in Illinois.
What accent do you think she has?
Take a look at the faculty list of the Linguistics staff at B.U. you
find most of them are from places other than Boston.
I'm sure this is true of any of the departments at B.U.
God you're logorrhoeic.

And if you knew anything at all about academe, you'd know it's true of _any_
respectable university.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
And next Friday evening I'm expecting to go to MoMA for the Frank Lloyd Wright
show! (Celebrating the transfer of his archives from Taliesin West to the Avery
Library of Art and Architecture at Columbia (the materials on paper) and MoMA
(the models and other realia).
That should be an interesting evening. Does your bus pass include
Jersey City to Manhattan?
I can't answer that, as I don't have a "bus pass."

As I've mentioned many times, I take the NJTransit bus from in front of my
house to the Port Authority Bus Terminal. From there's it's an almost one-mile
walk to MmMA, or the E (subway) train goes nearly door-to-door.

FYI, the reduced (50%) fare for seniors (62 and up) is $2.05. No proof of age
is required, and no card is issued to bestow the "privilege." It recently
transpired at nyc.transit that reduced "senior fare" is mandated by Federal law,
though the specifics are up to each service authority. It's more usual for it
to start at 65 and often a special card _is_ required. (No "bus pass," though.)
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-13 18:48:18 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of
1859." The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death,
and the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for
me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse,
who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said
so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.

'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2017-08-14 02:21:45 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-14 07:39:02 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)

There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.

In names where the spaces have been dropped, [1]
as often happens in Belgium, only the first V is capitalised.
Thus Mrs Vandenbroecke and Anne Vandenbroecke.
Intercapping, like in some American names, (like DeWitt)
is not used in Dutch. They are De Witt.

OTOH dropping the spaces in American names is an Americanism.
Mr. Vanderbilt's distant Dutch relatives, if existing,
would spell their name as 'Van der Bilt'.

Jan

[1] Most of the difference between Belgian and Dutch name custom
comes from the fact that the French conquest of Belgium
(and hence the fixing family names) happened earlier.
In the meantime Dutch spelling had become standardised
for the first time, (Siegenbeek 1804)
and Dutch family names generally followed the new spelling conventions.
GordonD
2017-08-14 08:53:17 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)
There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.
I was just about to ask that. That is my understanding of how that type
of name is written - does it apply to German names too?
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-14 11:38:29 UTC
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Post by GordonD
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)
There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.
I was just about to ask that. That is my understanding of how that type
of name is written - does it apply to German names too?
It's just a convention, others may do it differently.
Don't know about German,
but judging by German wikip pages the answer is no.
They use uncapitalised 'von' throughout,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2017-08-14 17:19:35 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)
There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.
In names where the spaces have been dropped, [1]
as often happens in Belgium, only the first V is capitalised.
Thus Mrs Vandenbroecke and Anne Vandenbroecke.
Intercapping, like in some American names, (like DeWitt)
is not used in Dutch. They are De Witt.
OTOH dropping the spaces in American names is an Americanism.
Mr. Vanderbilt's distant Dutch relatives, if existing,
would spell their name as 'Van der Bilt'.
[1] Most of the difference between Belgian and Dutch name custom
comes from the fact that the French conquest of Belgium
(and hence the fixing family names) happened earlier.
In the meantime Dutch spelling had become standardised
for the first time, (Siegenbeek 1804)
and Dutch family names generally followed the new spelling conventions.
Thanks. I suspect, though, that the Belgian rules are different. There
seems to be some snobbish difference between, for example, Vandersman,
Van der Sman, and van der Sman.

I am related by marriage to the family Van Dooselaere (van Antwerpen),
and I have been given to understand that a lower-case 'v' would be
tasteless.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-14 17:39:12 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)
There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.
In names where the spaces have been dropped, [1]
as often happens in Belgium, only the first V is capitalised.
Thus Mrs Vandenbroecke and Anne Vandenbroecke.
Intercapping, like in some American names, (like DeWitt)
is not used in Dutch. They are De Witt.
OTOH dropping the spaces in American names is an Americanism.
Mr. Vanderbilt's distant Dutch relatives, if existing,
would spell their name as 'Van der Bilt'.
[1] Most of the difference between Belgian and Dutch name custom
comes from the fact that the French conquest of Belgium
(and hence the fixing family names) happened earlier.
In the meantime Dutch spelling had become standardised
for the first time, (Siegenbeek 1804)
and Dutch family names generally followed the new spelling conventions.
Thanks. I suspect, though, that the Belgian rules are different.
25 or so ago I was editing a book that had references to people with
van names: Americans, South Africans, Dutch, a francophone Belgian with
a Flemish name. I asked one of the Dutch authors how to handle them. I
did what he recommended, but the rules seemed impossible for an
outsider to understand, and to be different in the different countries
where van names are common.
Post by Peter Moylan
There seems to be some snobbish difference between, for example,
Vandersman, Van der Sman, and van der Sman.
I am related by marriage to the family Van Dooselaere (van Antwerpen),
and I have been given to understand that a lower-case 'v' would be
tasteless.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-15 07:13:19 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)
There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.
In names where the spaces have been dropped, [1]
as often happens in Belgium, only the first V is capitalised.
Thus Mrs Vandenbroecke and Anne Vandenbroecke.
Intercapping, like in some American names, (like DeWitt)
is not used in Dutch. They are De Witt.
OTOH dropping the spaces in American names is an Americanism.
Mr. Vanderbilt's distant Dutch relatives, if existing,
would spell their name as 'Van der Bilt'.
[1] Most of the difference between Belgian and Dutch name custom
comes from the fact that the French conquest of Belgium
(and hence the fixing family names) happened earlier.
In the meantime Dutch spelling had become standardised
for the first time, (Siegenbeek 1804)
and Dutch family names generally followed the new spelling conventions.
Thanks. I suspect, though, that the Belgian rules are different.
25 or so ago I was editing a book that had references to people with
van names: Americans, South Africans, Dutch, a francophone Belgian with
a Flemish name. I asked one of the Dutch authors how to handle them. I
did what he recommended, but the rules seemed impossible for an
outsider to understand, and to be different in the different countries
where van names are common.
Not even the alphabetisation rules are standard.
Poor Ms Anna van Buren will be split up between
Van Buren, Anna
and
Buren, Anna van,
or perhaps
VanBuren, Anna,
(if she publishes in an American journal)

Bad for her citation score,

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-15 11:29:18 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)
There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.
In names where the spaces have been dropped, [1]
as often happens in Belgium, only the first V is capitalised.
Thus Mrs Vandenbroecke and Anne Vandenbroecke.
Intercapping, like in some American names, (like DeWitt)
is not used in Dutch. They are De Witt.
OTOH dropping the spaces in American names is an Americanism.
Mr. Vanderbilt's distant Dutch relatives, if existing,
would spell their name as 'Van der Bilt'.
[1] Most of the difference between Belgian and Dutch name custom
comes from the fact that the French conquest of Belgium
(and hence the fixing family names) happened earlier.
In the meantime Dutch spelling had become standardised
for the first time, (Siegenbeek 1804)
and Dutch family names generally followed the new spelling conventions.
Thanks. I suspect, though, that the Belgian rules are different. There
seems to be some snobbish difference between, for example, Vandersman,
Van der Sman, and van der Sman.
I am related by marriage to the family Van Dooselaere (van Antwerpen),
and I have been given to understand that a lower-case 'v' would be
tasteless.
Belgians are more status-concious than the Dutch.
This is already apparent while still driving on the motorway,
(more 'status' cars, more 'bling' on them)

Jan
Peter Moylan
2017-08-15 13:00:58 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Belgians are more status-concious than the Dutch.
This is already apparent while still driving on the motorway,
(more 'status' cars, more 'bling' on them)
To me, the most obvious feature of a Belgian motorway is the terrifying
behaviour of the cars with Dutch number plates. Clearly the drivers have
never heard of speed limits.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-15 14:31:34 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Belgians are more status-concious than the Dutch.
This is already apparent while still driving on the motorway,
(more 'status' cars, more 'bling' on them)
To me, the most obvious feature of a Belgian motorway is the terrifying
behaviour of the cars with Dutch number plates. Clearly the drivers have
never heard of speed limits.
I have said this before (in connection with France I think)
but your European driving experiences seem to date from looooooong ago.

For a long time already European police forces
have been giving their tickets away to each other
on a mutual gift basis. The receiver keeps the whole booty.

So the Dutch justice is quite willing to collect.
The Belgians, French etc have done the legwork for them,
paid for the cams and so on, and all they have to do is cash in.
(and send their B and F etc. tickets in return)

So no, speeding in other Euro countries may cost (a lot) money too.
The old rule that they could only fine you when abroad
by actually stopping you no longer applies,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-16 13:23:37 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)
There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.
In names where the spaces have been dropped, [1]
as often happens in Belgium, only the first V is capitalised.
Thus Mrs Vandenbroecke and Anne Vandenbroecke.
Intercapping, like in some American names, (like DeWitt)
is not used in Dutch. They are De Witt.
OTOH dropping the spaces in American names is an Americanism.
Mr. Vanderbilt's distant Dutch relatives, if existing,
would spell their name as 'Van der Bilt'.
[1] Most of the difference between Belgian and Dutch name custom
comes from the fact that the French conquest of Belgium
(and hence the fixing family names) happened earlier.
In the meantime Dutch spelling had become standardised
for the first time, (Siegenbeek 1804)
and Dutch family names generally followed the new spelling conventions.
Thanks. I suspect, though, that the Belgian rules are different. There
seems to be some snobbish difference between, for example, Vandersman,
Van der Sman, and van der Sman.
I am related by marriage to the family Van Dooselaere (van Antwerpen),
and I have been given to understand that a lower-case 'v' would be
tasteless.
Belgians are more status-concious than the Dutch.
This is already apparent while still driving on the motorway,
(more 'status' cars, more 'bling' on them)
The Dutch just need a vehicle strong enough to pull a caravan.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-16 19:50:43 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)
There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.
In names where the spaces have been dropped, [1]
as often happens in Belgium, only the first V is capitalised.
Thus Mrs Vandenbroecke and Anne Vandenbroecke.
Intercapping, like in some American names, (like DeWitt)
is not used in Dutch. They are De Witt.
OTOH dropping the spaces in American names is an Americanism.
Mr. Vanderbilt's distant Dutch relatives, if existing,
would spell their name as 'Van der Bilt'.
[1] Most of the difference between Belgian and Dutch name custom
comes from the fact that the French conquest of Belgium
(and hence the fixing family names) happened earlier.
In the meantime Dutch spelling had become standardised
for the first time, (Siegenbeek 1804)
and Dutch family names generally followed the new spelling conventions.
Thanks. I suspect, though, that the Belgian rules are different. There
seems to be some snobbish difference between, for example, Vandersman,
Van der Sman, and van der Sman.
I am related by marriage to the family Van Dooselaere (van Antwerpen),
and I have been given to understand that a lower-case 'v' would be
tasteless.
Belgians are more status-concious than the Dutch.
This is already apparent while still driving on the motorway,
(more 'status' cars, more 'bling' on them)
The Dutch just need a vehicle strong enough to pull a caravan.
Come on, don't try to convince me
that your knowledge of French trafic
is as obsolete as Peter's.
The Dutch caravan is on the way to extinction.
Little remains of what was once 'the white flood'.
If you see one on the road it is a safe bet
that you will see two gray haired heads with it.

Maybe you are suffering from congnitive bias?

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-16 20:48:04 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
[ ... ]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Belgians are more status-concious than the Dutch.
This is already apparent while still driving on the motorway,
(more 'status' cars, more 'bling' on them)
The Dutch just need a vehicle strong enough to pull a caravan.
Come on, don't try to convince me
that your knowledge of French trafic
is as obsolete as Peter's.
Probably you're right, as I don't take long journeys on motorways as
often as I once did. The last time I drove to Brussels was in about
2010, and there were still plenty of Dutch caravans then. But I agree:
times change faster than one's prejudices.

It's like naked breasts on French beaches. There was an item about it
on television a couple of nights ago, in which it was said that they
were only half as numerous as 30 years. "Only half" struck me as a
gross exaggeration: I would put it at one-tenth at most, and most of
them belong to some of the same women as 30 years ago. Naked young
breasts are largely a thing of the past.
Post by J. J. Lodder
The Dutch caravan is on the way to extinction.
Little remains of what was once 'the white flood'.
If you see one on the road it is a safe bet
that you will see two gray haired heads with it.
Maybe you are suffering from congnitive bias?
Jan
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-17 09:52:53 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
[ ... ]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Belgians are more status-concious than the Dutch.
This is already apparent while still driving on the motorway,
(more 'status' cars, more 'bling' on them)
The Dutch just need a vehicle strong enough to pull a caravan.
Come on, don't try to convince me
that your knowledge of French trafic
is as obsolete as Peter's.
Probably you're right, as I don't take long journeys on motorways as
often as I once did. The last time I drove to Brussels was in about
times change faster than one's prejudices.
Of course, many caravans survive.
But the days of notoriety are past.
(at the start of the Dutch holliday season
there was an endless white stream through France,
mostly on the way to Spain.
Nowadays a caravan seen on a French moterway
may as well be British or French.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
It's like naked breasts on French beaches. There was an item about it
on television a couple of nights ago, in which it was said that they
were only half as numerous as 30 years. "Only half" struck me as a
gross exaggeration: I would put it at one-tenth at most, and most of
them belong to some of the same women as 30 years ago. Naked young
breasts are largely a thing of the past.
I wouldn't know, not being in the habit of going there often.
OTOH the number of official nudist colonies has increased.

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-17 16:38:24 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
[ ... ]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Belgians are more status-concious than the Dutch.
This is already apparent while still driving on the motorway,
(more 'status' cars, more 'bling' on them)
The Dutch just need a vehicle strong enough to pull a caravan.
Come on, don't try to convince me
that your knowledge of French trafic
is as obsolete as Peter's.
Probably you're right, as I don't take long journeys on motorways as
often as I once did. The last time I drove to Brussels was in about
times change faster than one's prejudices.
Of course, many caravans survive.
But the days of notoriety are past.
(at the start of the Dutch holliday season
there was an endless white stream through France,
mostly on the way to Spain.
Nowadays a caravan seen on a French moterway
may as well be British or French.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
It's like naked breasts on French beaches. There was an item about it
on television a couple of nights ago, in which it was said that they
were only half as numerous as 30 years. "Only half" struck me as a
gross exaggeration: I would put it at one-tenth at most, and most of
them belong to some of the same women as 30 years ago. Naked young
breasts are largely a thing of the past.
I wouldn't know, not being in the habit of going there often.
You probably don't live as close to a beach as I do, and maybe you
haven't had four grandchildren visiting over the past few weeks.
Post by J. J. Lodder
OTOH the number of official nudist colonies has increased.
Jan
--
athel
charles
2017-08-16 20:27:48 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ±1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)
There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.
In names where the spaces have been dropped, [1]
as often happens in Belgium, only the first V is capitalised.
Thus Mrs Vandenbroecke and Anne Vandenbroecke.
Intercapping, like in some American names, (like DeWitt)
is not used in Dutch. They are De Witt.
OTOH dropping the spaces in American names is an Americanism.
Mr. Vanderbilt's distant Dutch relatives, if existing,
would spell their name as 'Van der Bilt'.
[1] Most of the difference between Belgian and Dutch name custom
comes from the fact that the French conquest of Belgium (and hence
the fixing family names) happened earlier. In the meantime Dutch
spelling had become standardised for the first time, (Siegenbeek
1804) and Dutch family names generally followed the new spelling
conventions.
Thanks. I suspect, though, that the Belgian rules are different.
There seems to be some snobbish difference between, for example,
Vandersman, Van der Sman, and van der Sman.
I am related by marriage to the family Van Dooselaere (van
Antwerpen), and I have been given to understand that a lower-case
'v' would be tasteless.
Belgians are more status-concious than the Dutch.
This is already apparent while still driving on the motorway,
(more 'status' cars, more 'bling' on them)
The Dutch just need a vehicle strong enough to pull a caravan.
Come on, don't try to convince me
that your knowledge of French trafic
is as obsolete as Peter's.
The Dutch caravan is on the way to extinction.
Little remains of what was once 'the white flood'.
If you see one on the road it is a safe bet
that you will see two gray haired heads with it.
they come to the caravan site down the road from here, but only a few these
days.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-17 09:52:54 UTC
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Post by charles
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something
invention. The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van
Buren', (by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van
Buren ±1550) and some of them have used 'Van Buren' as common
name when doing something incognito. So despite her being at
B.U. this fictional personage must be assumed to have a New York
family background, if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
Does Dutch distinguish between "van Buren" and "Van Buren", with the
upper-case V being reserved for the upper crust?
No. Dutch 'van' is just an indication
of original geographic family origin.
It has nothing to do with nobility.
(which anyway is nearly extinct in the Netherlands)
There are several conventions about capitalisation.
The one I prefer is to capitalise 'Van' as first word,
but not in the middle.
Thus Mrs. Van Buren, or 'in reply Van Buren said',
but Anna van Buren.
In names where the spaces have been dropped, [1]
as often happens in Belgium, only the first V is capitalised.
Thus Mrs Vandenbroecke and Anne Vandenbroecke.
Intercapping, like in some American names, (like DeWitt)
is not used in Dutch. They are De Witt.
OTOH dropping the spaces in American names is an Americanism.
Mr. Vanderbilt's distant Dutch relatives, if existing,
would spell their name as 'Van der Bilt'.
[1] Most of the difference between Belgian and Dutch name custom
comes from the fact that the French conquest of Belgium (and hence
the fixing family names) happened earlier. In the meantime Dutch
spelling had become standardised for the first time, (Siegenbeek
1804) and Dutch family names generally followed the new spelling
conventions.
Thanks. I suspect, though, that the Belgian rules are different.
There seems to be some snobbish difference between, for example,
Vandersman, Van der Sman, and van der Sman.
I am related by marriage to the family Van Dooselaere (van
Antwerpen), and I have been given to understand that a lower-case
'v' would be tasteless.
Belgians are more status-concious than the Dutch.
This is already apparent while still driving on the motorway,
(more 'status' cars, more 'bling' on them)
The Dutch just need a vehicle strong enough to pull a caravan.
Come on, don't try to convince me
that your knowledge of French trafic
is as obsolete as Peter's.
The Dutch caravan is on the way to extinction.
Little remains of what was once 'the white flood'.
If you see one on the road it is a safe bet
that you will see two gray haired heads with it.
they come to the caravan site down the road from here, but only a few these
days.
A matter of increasing affluence.
After WW II there was at first just general poverty.
Then came the tents, then big tents and luggage carts,
then tents on wheels, then caravans.
Nowadays it is campervans and moyorhomes.

But most just rent gites, or tour B&B sites,
I think,

Jan
Janet
2017-08-17 10:48:24 UTC
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In article <***@candehope.me.uk>, ***@candehope.me.uk
says...
Post by charles
Post by J. J. Lodder
The Dutch caravan is on the way to extinction.
Only because they've upgraded to motorhomes
Post by charles
Post by J. J. Lodder
Little remains of what was once 'the white flood'.
If you see one on the road it is a safe bet
that you will see two gray haired heads with it.
they come to the caravan site down the road from here, but only a few these
days.
That's because they're all in Scotland, in their motorhomes.

Janet
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-15 15:38:55 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of
1859." The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death,
and the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for
me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse,
who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said
so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ą1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
...

"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration from
the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant life
in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of the Lamb/,
by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants. (Maybe I should say
that the book is not all laughs.)

However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-15 15:49:55 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ą1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
...
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration from
the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant life
in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of the Lamb/,
by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants. (Maybe I should say
that the book is not all laughs.)
However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
The first language of the famous abolitionist activist Sojourner Truth, born a
slave "ca. 1797" in Ulster County, not far north of New York City, was Dutch.
By then, as far as we can tell, there were no New York City-born native speakers
of Dutch still living by the end of the 18th century. (There was an article on
Dutch-speaking NYS slaves in *American Speech* a couple years ago.)
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-15 20:21:01 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of
1859." The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death,
and the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for
me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse,
who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said
so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
...
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration from
the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant life
in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of the Lamb/,
by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants. (Maybe I should say
that the book is not all laughs.)
Well known of course.
Mostly fundie protestants who set up their own villages.
Best known is Holland (Michigan)
Even after WW II there was an emigration/immigration wave.

The Dutch are going to have some laughs with it.
The new American ambassador to the Hague
is set to be Pete (born Peter) Hoekstra,
gay hating, racist, and tea party founder.
He knows all about the Netherlands of course
from having been born there.
(his parents emigrated when he was aged three)
Compared to him Mr Geert Wilders is a soft-hearted liberal.
Post by Jerry Friedman
However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Maarten after Sint Maarten, aka Saint Martin, aka Martin(us) of Tours,
who became the patron saint of the town of Utrecht.
Still popular as the inventor of tricks and treats.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-16 17:21:13 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of
1859." The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death,
and the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for
me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse,
who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said
so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
,
if only from long ago.
...
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration from
the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant life
in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of the Lamb/,
by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants. (Maybe I should say
that the book is not all laughs.)
Well known of course.
But not very consistent with "must be assumed to have a New York family
background".
Post by J. J. Lodder
Mostly fundie protestants who set up their own villages.
"Fundie Protestants" applies to the narrator's family in /Blood of
the Lamb/.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Best known is Holland (Michigan)
Even after WW II there was an emigration/immigration wave.
The Dutch are going to have some laughs with it.
The new American ambassador to the Hague
is set to be Pete (born Peter) Hoekstra,
gay hating, racist, and tea party founder.
He knows all about the Netherlands of course
from having been born there.
(his parents emigrated when he was aged three)
Compared to him Mr Geert Wilders is a soft-hearted liberal.
I'm glad that will provide some laughs.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Maarten after Sint Maarten, aka Saint Martin, aka Martin(us) of Tours,
who became the patron saint of the town of Utrecht.
Still popular as the inventor of tricks and treats.
He has some popularity around here as San Martín Caballero.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.

I've known a few Americans with surnames that I recognized as Dutch,
and they didn't seem any better or more American than anyone else.
(One, with the surname Van Buren, was black. At the time, I didn't
know that Martin Van Buren had owned a slave, who he sort of freed,
so I didn't ask whether my friend was descended from "Tom".)
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-16 19:50:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I
tuned in to see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles.
Instead, I found him bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated
by alcoholism. with nary a puzzle and taking up a cold case --
the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859." The two layers of
flashback -- the events surrounding the death, and the trial
(with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for me --
there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued
Morse, who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American
until they said so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an
American one and specifically not a Boston one to go with her
professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
,
if only from long ago.
...
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration from
the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant life
in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of the Lamb/,
by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants. (Maybe I should say
that the book is not all laughs.)
Well known of course.
But not very consistent with "must be assumed to have a New York family
background".
Indeed. Exaggerating a bit.
Still I wouldn't expect to find a 'Van Buren'
among fundie protestants from Ommen, Drente,
which is where the Michigan Dutch came from.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Mostly fundie protestants who set up their own villages.
"Fundie Protestants" applies to the narrator's family in /Blood of
the Lamb/.
Inded again. 'fundie protestant is not meant as a compliment.
(despite the US being full of them)
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Best known is Holland (Michigan)
Even after WW II there was an emigration/immigration wave.
The Dutch are going to have some laughs with it.
The new American ambassador to the Hague
is set to be Pete (born Peter) Hoekstra,
gay hating, racist, and tea party founder.
He knows all about the Netherlands of course
from having been born there.
(his parents emigrated when he was aged three)
Compared to him Mr Geert Wilders is a soft-hearted liberal.
I'm glad that will provide some laughs.
Let's hope for the best.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Maarten after Sint Maarten, aka Saint Martin, aka Martin(us) of Tours,
who became the patron saint of the town of Utrecht.
Still popular as the inventor of tricks and treats.
He has some popularity around here as San Martín Caballero.
That's the one. Google yields this one
for an Utrecht Sint Maarten parade
<https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000weDP3T89_1Y/s/600/600/maart
en-161-gx.jpg>
Or this one in bronze
<http://vanderkrogt.net/standbeelden/object.php?record=UT22cy>
for Maarten as an important Roman oficer.
The original tricks and treats is on his name day, November 11.

He is immediately recognisable by his signature red coat,
just like Julius Caesar wore, and his white undercoat showing
after he had cut it in half.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I? It is a quote, as the " " signs indicate.
From a book about 'The Holland Mania',
a curious episode in American cultural history
from end 19th and early 29th century.
<https://www.amazon.com/Holland-Mania-Annette-Stott/dp/0879519061>
Post by Jerry Friedman
I've known a few Americans with surnames that I recognized as Dutch,
and they didn't seem any better or more American than anyone else.
(One, with the surname Van Buren, was black. At the time, I didn't
know that Martin Van Buren had owned a slave, who he sort of freed,
so I didn't ask whether my friend was descended from "Tom".)
The quote has a darker background.
As America became ever more xenophobic, reactionary, or even fascist
about mass immigration in the early 20th century
the Dutch were extolled [1] because they had completely integrated.
(and it was secretly hoped all those newcomers would do just like them)

The Dutch are the best Americans precisely
because they are not recognisably Dutch anymore,

Jan

[1] Praised into heaven, (de hemel in geprezen)
as the Dutch saying goes.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-16 21:35:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration from
the Netherlands to the U.S.
Well known of course.
But not very consistent with "must be assumed to have a New York family
background".
Indeed. Exaggerating a bit.
Still I wouldn't expect to find a 'Van Buren'
among fundie protestants from Ommen, Drente,
which is where the Michigan Dutch came from.
Several centuries later than the New York ones, such as President Van Buren's
family.
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-17 13:47:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I
tuned in to see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles.
Instead, I found him bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated
by alcoholism. with nary a puzzle and taking up a cold case --
the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859." The two layers of
flashback -- the events surrounding the death, and the trial
(with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for me --
there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued
Morse, who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American
until they said so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an
American one and specifically not a Boston one to go with her
professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
,
if only from long ago.
...
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration from
the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant life
in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of the Lamb/,
by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants. (Maybe I should say
that the book is not all laughs.)
Well known of course.
But not very consistent with "must be assumed to have a New York family
background".
Indeed. Exaggerating a bit.
Still I wouldn't expect to find a 'Van Buren'
among fundie protestants from Ommen, Drente,
which is where the Michigan Dutch came from.
...

Okay.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Maarten after Sint Maarten, aka Saint Martin, aka Martin(us) of Tours,
who became the patron saint of the town of Utrecht.
Still popular as the inventor of tricks and treats.
He has some popularity around here as San Martín Caballero.
That's the one. Google yields this one
for an Utrecht Sint Maarten parade
<https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000weDP3T89_1Y/s/600/600/maart
en-161-gx.jpg>
Or this one in bronze
<http://vanderkrogt.net/standbeelden/object.php?record=UT22cy>
for Maarten as an important Roman oficer.
The original tricks and treats is on his name day, November 11.
He is immediately recognisable by his signature red coat,
just like Julius Caesar wore, and his white undercoat showing
after he had cut it in half.
We call a sleeveless outer garment like that a cloak or mantle, or if
it's shorter and suitable for superheroes, a cape. St. Martin "divided
his cloak with a leper"--a fixed phrase with an obsolescent use of
"divide". Come to think of it, the whole phrase is probably
obsolescent these days.

Speaking of Caesar,

"If you have tears, prepare to shed them now.
You all do know this mantle: I remember
The first time ever Caesar put it on."
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I? It is a quote, as the " " signs indicate.
There were no quotation marks around the parenthesis.
Post by J. J. Lodder
From a book about 'The Holland Mania',
a curious episode in American cultural history
from end 19th and early 29th century.
<https://www.amazon.com/Holland-Mania-Annette-Stott/dp/0879519061>
Thanks, I didn't know about that. Holland had its tulips and
then we had our Holland. I suspect the author exaggerated a little,
though.

You want "from the late 19th and early 20th century." I'd
probably say "centuries." A slightly longer possibility is "from the
end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th."
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
I've known a few Americans with surnames that I recognized as Dutch,
and they didn't seem any better or more American than anyone else.
(One, with the surname Van Buren, was black. At the time, I didn't
know that Martin Van Buren had owned a slave, who he sort of freed,
so I didn't ask whether my friend was descended from "Tom".)
The quote has a darker background.
As America became ever more xenophobic, reactionary, or even fascist
about mass immigration in the early 20th century
the Dutch were extolled [1] because they had completely integrated.
(and it was secretly hoped all those newcomers would do just like them)
Secretly?
Post by J. J. Lodder
The Dutch are the best Americans precisely
because they are not recognisably Dutch anymore,
...

In the opinion of xenophobes of 100 years ago, so "were" would be better
than "are".
Post by J. J. Lodder
[1] Praised into heaven, (de hemel in geprezen)
as the Dutch saying goes.
Wow, I thought /English/ stranded prepositions.
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-18 09:01:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I
tuned in to see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles.
Instead, I found him bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated
by alcoholism. with nary a puzzle and taking up a cold case --
the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859." The two layers of
flashback -- the events surrounding the death, and the trial
(with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for me --
there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued
Morse, who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American
until they said so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an
American one and specifically not a Boston one to go with her
professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.
U.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something
invention. The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van
Buren', (by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van
Buren ?1550) and some of them have used 'Van Buren' as common
name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
,
if only from long ago.
...
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration
from the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant
life in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of
the Lamb/, by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants.
(Maybe I should say that the book is not all laughs.)
Well known of course.
But not very consistent with "must be assumed to have a New York family
background".
Indeed. Exaggerating a bit.
Still I wouldn't expect to find a 'Van Buren'
among fundie protestants from Ommen, Drente,
which is where the Michigan Dutch came from.
...
Okay.
BTW, here is another one
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/SFA001014996.
jpg/220px-SFA001014996.jpg>
called Juliana van Buren.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Maarten after Sint Maarten, aka Saint Martin, aka Martin(us) of Tours,
who became the patron saint of the town of Utrecht.
Still popular as the inventor of tricks and treats.
He has some popularity around here as San Martín Caballero.
That's the one. Google yields this one
for an Utrecht Sint Maarten parade
<https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000weDP3T89_1Y/s/600/600/maart
en-161-gx.jpg>
Or this one in bronze
<http://vanderkrogt.net/standbeelden/object.php?record=UT22cy>
for Maarten as an important Roman oficer.
The original tricks and treats is on his name day, November 11.
He is immediately recognisable by his signature red coat,
just like Julius Caesar wore, and his white undercoat showing
after he had cut it in half.
We call a sleeveless outer garment like that a cloak or mantle, or if
it's shorter and suitable for superheroes, a cape. St. Martin "divided
his cloak with a leper"--a fixed phrase with an obsolescent use of
"divide". Come to think of it, the whole phrase is probably
obsolescent these days.
Martin actually cut it in half.
I don't know what the function of the garment would have been.
Just a piece of cloth to single him out,
like Caesar's in Asterix, and also in reality,
or some huge all around garment
that serves as foul weather protection while riding.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Speaking of Caesar,
"If you have tears, prepare to shed them now.
You all do know this mantle: I remember
The first time ever Caesar put it on."
Caesar's red mantle seems to have been legendary
already in his lifetime, as he wore it in battle
to show his men that he was with them.
BTW, many English sources call it a robe.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I? It is a quote, as the " " signs indicate.
There were no quotation marks around the parenthesis.
An explanation of a quote isn't a quote itself.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
From a book about 'The Holland Mania',
a curious episode in American cultural history
from end 19th and early 29th century.
<https://www.amazon.com/Holland-Mania-Annette-Stott/dp/0879519061>
Thanks, I didn't know about that. Holland had its tulips and
then we had our Holland. I suspect the author exaggerated a little,
though.
It is cultural history. They don't do that in American schools afaik.
No "god on our side" or becoming top nation in it.
And yes, it is a monograph, and it is mostly about
the culture/power/money elite from New England to Washington.
Post by Jerry Friedman
You want "from the late 19th and early 20th century." I'd
probably say "centuries." A slightly longer possibility is "from the
end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th."
Yes, thanks, I garbled several unsatisfactory versions.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
I've known a few Americans with surnames that I recognized as Dutch,
and they didn't seem any better or more American than anyone else.
(One, with the surname Van Buren, was black. At the time, I didn't
know that Martin Van Buren had owned a slave, who he sort of freed,
so I didn't ask whether my friend was descended from "Tom".)
The quote has a darker background.
As America became ever more xenophobic, reactionary, or even fascist
about mass immigration in the early 20th century
the Dutch were extolled [1] because they had completely integrated.
(and it was secretly hoped all those newcomers would do just like them)
Secretly?
I don't think they said it like that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
The Dutch are the best Americans precisely
because they are not recognisably Dutch anymore,
...
In the opinion of xenophobes of 100 years ago, so "were" would be better
than "are".
Aren't they still?
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
[1] Praised into heaven, (de hemel in geprezen)
as the Dutch saying goes.
Wow, I thought /English/ stranded prepositions.
It's a standing expression. The connotations can also be negative:
destroying sympathy for someone by over-praising him.
People generally don't like saints.

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-18 11:52:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
<http://vanderkrogt.net/standbeelden/object.php?record=UT22cy>
for Maarten as an important Roman oficer.
The original tricks and treats is on his name day, November 11.
He is immediately recognisable by his signature red coat,
just like Julius Caesar wore, and his white undercoat showing
after he had cut it in half.
We call a sleeveless outer garment like that a cloak or mantle, or if
it's shorter and suitable for superheroes, a cape. St. Martin "divided
his cloak with a leper"--a fixed phrase with an obsolescent use of
"divide". Come to think of it, the whole phrase is probably
obsolescent these days.
Martin actually cut it in half.
I don't know what the function of the garment would have been.
Just a piece of cloth to single him out,
like Caesar's in Asterix, and also in reality,
or some huge all around garment
that serves as foul weather protection while riding.
As I mentioned once, the actual cloak itself used to be kept as a relic in St. Martin's Chapel,
along the ambulatory behind the high altar at the (Episcopal) Cathedral of St. John the Divine
in New York City. It was quite large; it was in a glass-front case, and the
chapel was the only
one of the seven chapels whose gates were always locked. The cloak is no
longer on display.

It was not red, but black.
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-19 14:40:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
<http://vanderkrogt.net/standbeelden/object.php?record=UT22cy>
for Maarten as an important Roman oficer.
The original tricks and treats is on his name day, November 11.
He is immediately recognisable by his signature red coat,
just like Julius Caesar wore, and his white undercoat showing
after he had cut it in half.
We call a sleeveless outer garment like that a cloak or mantle, or if
it's shorter and suitable for superheroes, a cape. St. Martin "divided
his cloak with a leper"--a fixed phrase with an obsolescent use of
"divide". Come to think of it, the whole phrase is probably
obsolescent these days.
Martin actually cut it in half.
I don't know what the function of the garment would have been.
Just a piece of cloth to single him out,
like Caesar's in Asterix, and also in reality,
or some huge all around garment
that serves as foul weather protection while riding.
As I mentioned once, the actual cloak itself used to be kept as a relic in
St. Martin's Chapel, along the ambulatory behind the high altar at the
(Episcopal) Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York City. It was
quite large; it was in a glass-front case, and the chapel was the only one
of the seven chapels whose gates were always locked. The cloak is no
longer on display.
It was not red, but black.
My my.
They have a genuine piece of the holy cross too?

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-19 16:13:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
<http://vanderkrogt.net/standbeelden/object.php?record=UT22cy>
for Maarten as an important Roman oficer.
The original tricks and treats is on his name day, November 11.
He is immediately recognisable by his signature red coat,
just like Julius Caesar wore, and his white undercoat showing
after he had cut it in half.
We call a sleeveless outer garment like that a cloak or mantle, or if
it's shorter and suitable for superheroes, a cape. St. Martin "divided
his cloak with a leper"--a fixed phrase with an obsolescent use of
"divide". Come to think of it, the whole phrase is probably
obsolescent these days.
Martin actually cut it in half.
I don't know what the function of the garment would have been.
Just a piece of cloth to single him out,
like Caesar's in Asterix, and also in reality,
or some huge all around garment
that serves as foul weather protection while riding.
As I mentioned once, the actual cloak itself used to be kept as a relic in
St. Martin's Chapel, along the ambulatory behind the high altar at the
(Episcopal) Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York City. It was
quite large; it was in a glass-front case, and the chapel was the only one
of the seven chapels whose gates were always locked. The cloak is no
longer on display.
It was not red, but black.
My my.
They have a genuine piece of the holy cross too?
Why would you say such a thing?

They're not Roman Catholic, they're Anglican.

And, as I said, it has been taken off display.
Mack A. Damia
2017-08-19 16:15:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
<http://vanderkrogt.net/standbeelden/object.php?record=UT22cy>
for Maarten as an important Roman oficer.
The original tricks and treats is on his name day, November 11.
He is immediately recognisable by his signature red coat,
just like Julius Caesar wore, and his white undercoat showing
after he had cut it in half.
We call a sleeveless outer garment like that a cloak or mantle, or if
it's shorter and suitable for superheroes, a cape. St. Martin "divided
his cloak with a leper"--a fixed phrase with an obsolescent use of
"divide". Come to think of it, the whole phrase is probably
obsolescent these days.
Martin actually cut it in half.
I don't know what the function of the garment would have been.
Just a piece of cloth to single him out,
like Caesar's in Asterix, and also in reality,
or some huge all around garment
that serves as foul weather protection while riding.
As I mentioned once, the actual cloak itself used to be kept as a relic in
St. Martin's Chapel, along the ambulatory behind the high altar at the
(Episcopal) Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York City. It was
quite large; it was in a glass-front case, and the chapel was the only one
of the seven chapels whose gates were always locked. The cloak is no
longer on display.
It was not red, but black.
My my.
They have a genuine piece of the holy cross too?
Hot items in the Middle Ages along with Christ's foreskin.
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-19 19:41:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
<http://vanderkrogt.net/standbeelden/object.php?record=UT22cy>
for Maarten as an important Roman oficer.
The original tricks and treats is on his name day, November 11.
He is immediately recognisable by his signature red coat,
just like Julius Caesar wore, and his white undercoat showing
after he had cut it in half.
We call a sleeveless outer garment like that a cloak or mantle, or if
it's shorter and suitable for superheroes, a cape. St. Martin "divided
his cloak with a leper"--a fixed phrase with an obsolescent use of
"divide". Come to think of it, the whole phrase is probably
obsolescent these days.
Martin actually cut it in half.
I don't know what the function of the garment would have been.
Just a piece of cloth to single him out,
like Caesar's in Asterix, and also in reality,
or some huge all around garment
that serves as foul weather protection while riding.
As I mentioned once, the actual cloak itself used to be kept as a relic in
St. Martin's Chapel, along the ambulatory behind the high altar at the
(Episcopal) Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York City. It was
quite large; it was in a glass-front case, and the chapel was the only one
of the seven chapels whose gates were always locked. The cloak is no
longer on display.
It was not red, but black.
My my.
They have a genuine piece of the holy cross too?
Hot items in the Middle Ages along with Christ's foreskin.
It has been said that the crusaders brought back enough authentic wood
to build a fleet,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-16 21:31:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of
1859." The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death,
and the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for
me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse,
who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said
so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
,
if only from long ago.
...
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration from
the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant life
in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of the Lamb/,
by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants. (Maybe I should say
that the book is not all laughs.)
Well known of course.
But not very consistent with "must be assumed to have a New York family
background".
Post by J. J. Lodder
Mostly fundie protestants who set up their own villages.
"Fundie Protestants" applies to the narrator's family in /Blood of
the Lamb/.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Best known is Holland (Michigan)
Even after WW II there was an emigration/immigration wave.
The Dutch are going to have some laughs with it.
The new American ambassador to the Hague
is set to be Pete (born Peter) Hoekstra,
gay hating, racist, and tea party founder.
He knows all about the Netherlands of course
from having been born there.
(his parents emigrated when he was aged three)
Compared to him Mr Geert Wilders is a soft-hearted liberal.
I'm glad that will provide some laughs.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Maarten after Sint Maarten, aka Saint Martin, aka Martin(us) of Tours,
who became the patron saint of the town of Utrecht.
Still popular as the inventor of tricks and treats.
He has some popularity around here as San Martín Caballero.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I've known a few Americans with surnames that I recognized as Dutch,
and they didn't seem any better or more American than anyone else.
The "best families" -- not the upstart New Money like the Carnegies,
Vanderbilts, and Astors -- in New York were the descendants of the Dutch
for whom many streets are named. A major subway station is Hoyt-Schermerhorn
in Brooklyn. I've heard non-cognoscenti say "shermerhorn" as if it were German.
(Of course we can't do [sx], but it's "skermerhorn.")
Post by Jerry Friedman
(One, with the surname Van Buren, was black. At the time, I didn't
know that Martin Van Buren had owned a slave, who he sort of freed,
so I didn't ask whether my friend was descended from "Tom".)
Slavery was abolished in New York State fairly early on. Maybe it wasn't
entirely the future president's choice to do so.
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-17 09:52:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I
tuned in to see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles.
Instead, I found him bedridden with a bleeding ulcer
exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a puzzle and taking up a
cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859." The two
layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death, and
the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but --
just for me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book
that intrigued Morse, who I'd never have guessed was supposed
to be American until they said so. She certainly had an odd
accent, but not an American one and specifically not a Boston
one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
,
if only from long ago.
...
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration from
the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant life
in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of the Lamb/,
by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants. (Maybe I should say
that the book is not all laughs.)
Well known of course.
But not very consistent with "must be assumed to have a New York family
background".
Post by J. J. Lodder
Mostly fundie protestants who set up their own villages.
"Fundie Protestants" applies to the narrator's family in /Blood of
the Lamb/.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Best known is Holland (Michigan)
Even after WW II there was an emigration/immigration wave.
The Dutch are going to have some laughs with it.
The new American ambassador to the Hague
is set to be Pete (born Peter) Hoekstra,
gay hating, racist, and tea party founder.
He knows all about the Netherlands of course
from having been born there.
(his parents emigrated when he was aged three)
Compared to him Mr Geert Wilders is a soft-hearted liberal.
I'm glad that will provide some laughs.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Maarten after Sint Maarten, aka Saint Martin, aka Martin(us) of Tours,
who became the patron saint of the town of Utrecht.
Still popular as the inventor of tricks and treats.
He has some popularity around here as San Martín Caballero.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I've known a few Americans with surnames that I recognized as Dutch,
and they didn't seem any better or more American than anyone else.
The "best families" -- not the upstart New Money like the Carnegies,
Vanderbilts, and Astors -- in New York were the descendants of the Dutch
for whom many streets are named. A major subway station is
Hoyt-Schermerhorn in Brooklyn. I've heard non-cognoscenti say
"shermerhorn" as if it were German. (Of course we can't do [sx], but it's
"skermerhorn.")
Schermerhorn is a village to the north of Amsterdam.
Unlike popular American belief not all Dutch family names
associated with a place name acquire a Van.
The family still exists.
The first Dutch minister president after WW II
was Willem "Wim" Schermerhorn.
OTOH there are no people called 'Van Schermerhorn'.

So indeed, it should be pronounced with the best imitation
of a Dutch 'Sch' that you can manage.

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-17 13:21:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of
1859." The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death,
and the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for
me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse,
who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said
so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
,
if only from long ago.
...
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration from
the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant life
in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of the Lamb/,
by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants. (Maybe I should say
that the book is not all laughs.)
Well known of course.
But not very consistent with "must be assumed to have a New York family
background".
Post by J. J. Lodder
Mostly fundie protestants who set up their own villages.
"Fundie Protestants" applies to the narrator's family in /Blood of
the Lamb/.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Best known is Holland (Michigan)
Even after WW II there was an emigration/immigration wave.
The Dutch are going to have some laughs with it.
The new American ambassador to the Hague
is set to be Pete (born Peter) Hoekstra,
gay hating, racist, and tea party founder.
He knows all about the Netherlands of course
from having been born there.
(his parents emigrated when he was aged three)
Compared to him Mr Geert Wilders is a soft-hearted liberal.
I'm glad that will provide some laughs.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Maarten after Sint Maarten, aka Saint Martin, aka Martin(us) of Tours,
who became the patron saint of the town of Utrecht.
Still popular as the inventor of tricks and treats.
He has some popularity around here as San Martín Caballero.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I've known a few Americans with surnames that I recognized as Dutch,
and they didn't seem any better or more American than anyone else.
The "best families" -- not the upstart New Money like the Carnegies,
Vanderbilts, and Astors -- in New York were the descendants of the Dutch
for whom many streets are named. A major subway station is Hoyt-Schermerhorn
in Brooklyn. I've heard non-cognoscenti say "shermerhorn" as if it were German.
(Of course we can't do [sx], but it's "skermerhorn.")
I've known one person with that name. The way she pronounced it
sounded to me like "skammerhorn", but maybe it was "skemmerhorn".
Maybe the first r disappeared for the same reason it often does in
"surprise", "library", etc., though I'm sure she would have pronounced
both in "library".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
(One, with the surname Van Buren, was black. At the time, I didn't
know that Martin Van Buren had owned a slave, who he sort of freed,
so I didn't ask whether my friend was descended from "Tom".)
Slavery was abolished in New York State fairly early on. Maybe it wasn't
entirely the future president's choice to do so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Van_Buren#Early_political_career
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-17 19:09:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I
tuned in to see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles.
Instead, I found him bedridden with a bleeding ulcer
exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a puzzle and taking up a
cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859." The two
layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death, and
the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but --
just for me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book
that intrigued Morse, who I'd never have guessed was supposed
to be American until they said so. She certainly had an odd
accent, but not an American one and specifically not a Boston
one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the
character's names. However, according to IMDb, there is a
character name "Dr. Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds
like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something
invention. The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van
Buren', (by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van
Buren ?1550) and some of them have used 'Van Buren' as common
name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
,
if only from long ago.
...
"Must" is a little strong. There has been constant immigration
from the Netherlands to the U.S. For a comic picture of immigrant
life in the early 20th century, see the beginning of /The Blood of
the Lamb/, by Peter De Vries, who was the son of immigrants.
(Maybe I should say that the book is not all laughs.)
Well known of course.
But not very consistent with "must be assumed to have a New York family
background".
Post by J. J. Lodder
Mostly fundie protestants who set up their own villages.
"Fundie Protestants" applies to the narrator's family in /Blood of
the Lamb/.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Best known is Holland (Michigan)
Even after WW II there was an emigration/immigration wave.
The Dutch are going to have some laughs with it.
The new American ambassador to the Hague
is set to be Pete (born Peter) Hoekstra,
gay hating, racist, and tea party founder.
He knows all about the Netherlands of course
from having been born there.
(his parents emigrated when he was aged three)
Compared to him Mr Geert Wilders is a soft-hearted liberal.
I'm glad that will provide some laughs.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
However, the writers might have wanted to hint at a New Amsterdam
background, since Martin Van Buren (baptized "Maarten van Buren",
Maarten after Sint Maarten, aka Saint Martin, aka Martin(us) of Tours,
who became the patron saint of the town of Utrecht.
Still popular as the inventor of tricks and treats.
He has some popularity around here as San Martín Caballero.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Wikipedia says), the eighth president of the U.S., was from New York
and of entirely New Amsterdam Dutch descent.
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I've known a few Americans with surnames that I recognized as Dutch,
and they didn't seem any better or more American than anyone else.
The "best families" -- not the upstart New Money like the Carnegies,
Vanderbilts, and Astors -- in New York were the descendants of the Dutch
for whom many streets are named. A major subway station is
Hoyt-Schermerhorn in Brooklyn. I've heard non-cognoscenti say
"shermerhorn" as if it were German. (Of course we can't do [sx], but
it's "skermerhorn.")
I've known one person with that name. The way she pronounced it
sounded to me like "skammerhorn", but maybe it was "skemmerhorn".
Maybe the first r disappeared for the same reason it often does in
"surprise", "library", etc., though I'm sure she would have pronounced
both in "library".
In Dutch both r-s need to be pronounced,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-17 20:19:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
I've known a few Americans with surnames that I recognized as Dutch,
and they didn't seem any better or more American than anyone else.
The "best families" -- not the upstart New Money like the Carnegies,
Vanderbilts, and Astors -- in New York were the descendants of the Dutch
for whom many streets are named. A major subway station is Hoyt-Schermerhorn
in Brooklyn. I've heard non-cognoscenti say "shermerhorn" as if it were German.
(Of course we can't do [sx], but it's "skermerhorn.")
I've known one person with that name. The way she pronounced it
sounded to me like "skammerhorn", but maybe it was "skemmerhorn".
Maybe the first r disappeared for the same reason it often does in
"surprise", "library", etc., though I'm sure she would have pronounced
both in "library".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
(One, with the surname Van Buren, was black. At the time, I didn't
know that Martin Van Buren had owned a slave, who he sort of freed,
so I didn't ask whether my friend was descended from "Tom".)
Slavery was abolished in New York State fairly early on. Maybe it wasn't
entirely the future president's choice to do so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Van_Buren#Early_political_career
There's something a bit Trumpy about that career.

I didn't read further about his sordid part in the Jackson machinations of 1824,
the worst election in US history (worse even than 2000).
Peter Moylan
2017-08-17 02:09:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I observed the same in Australia, when growing up in a town with many
recent immigrants, from a variety of countries. Some integrated very
well into Australian life, and some didn't. I got the impression that
the Dutch immigrants became Australian, in their mannerisms and their
way of interacting with other people, especially quickly. One got the
impression that they'd even forgotten how to speak Dutch.

Compare that with, for example, the Italians. They too integrated pretty
well, but they still lived in Italian neighbourhoods and socialised
mainly with other Italians. The Dutch never did that.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
bill van
2017-08-17 03:52:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I observed the same in Australia, when growing up in a town with many
recent immigrants, from a variety of countries. Some integrated very
well into Australian life, and some didn't. I got the impression that
the Dutch immigrants became Australian, in their mannerisms and their
way of interacting with other people, especially quickly. One got the
impression that they'd even forgotten how to speak Dutch.
Compare that with, for example, the Italians. They too integrated pretty
well, but they still lived in Italian neighbourhoods and socialised
mainly with other Italians. The Dutch never did that.
The Dutch also integrated very effectively in Canada. But there are
exceptions. Agricultural communities in southern Ontario and B.C.'s
Fraser Valley tended to gather in Dutch Reformed church congregations.
There are similar communities in the U.S., in Michigan and Washington
state. Instead of losing their Dutch in two generations, it took them
four or more.

My experience is that Dutch Reformed adherents tended to stick most
closely together. Catholics, other Protestants such as Lutherans and
the non-religious integrated quickly and easily.
--
bill
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-17 09:52:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I observed the same in Australia, when growing up in a town with many
recent immigrants, from a variety of countries. Some integrated very
well into Australian life, and some didn't. I got the impression that
the Dutch immigrants became Australian, in their mannerisms and their
way of interacting with other people, especially quickly. One got the
impression that they'd even forgotten how to speak Dutch.
I have been told that second generation Dutchwoman joke
that 'I am a Dutchess'.

They haven't forgotten their origins,

Jan
Post by Peter Moylan
Compare that with, for example, the Italians. They too integrated pretty
well, but they still lived in Italian neighbourhoods and socialised
mainly with other Italians. The Dutch never did that.
Cheryl
2017-08-17 10:03:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I observed the same in Australia, when growing up in a town with many
recent immigrants, from a variety of countries. Some integrated very
well into Australian life, and some didn't. I got the impression that
the Dutch immigrants became Australian, in their mannerisms and their
way of interacting with other people, especially quickly. One got the
impression that they'd even forgotten how to speak Dutch.
I have been told that second generation Dutchwoman joke
that 'I am a Dutchess'.
They haven't forgotten their origins,
Eventually, if they follow the pattern of some other groups, they'll
organize social clubs and travel to the "old country" for holidays, a
couple of generations after the generation that abandoned the social
clubs and Back Home traditions of their parents, the first generation of
immigrants.

People with a bit of Irish or Scottish ancestry are noted for this,
although of course, some people who enjoy Irish or Scottish music or
dancing or social events don't have any such ancestry at all, they just
do it for fun.
--
Cheryl
Peter Moylan
2017-08-17 15:44:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I observed the same in Australia, when growing up in a town with many
recent immigrants, from a variety of countries. Some integrated very
well into Australian life, and some didn't. I got the impression that
the Dutch immigrants became Australian, in their mannerisms and their
way of interacting with other people, especially quickly. One got the
impression that they'd even forgotten how to speak Dutch.
I have been told that second generation Dutchwoman joke
that 'I am a Dutchess'.
They haven't forgotten their origins,
Nor should they. We new world people should celebrate our origins. I'll
concede that the Irish-Americans, for example, go a bit over the top in
that way, being more Irish than the Irish, and I wouldn't go that far;
but I do have some pride in my Irish heritage. I regret the fact that I
can't speak the language of my great-grandparents, and I'm making some
effort to fix that. (I can speak the language of my children's mother,
so I should surely go one step further.) On the other hand, I have no
interest at all in being thrown out of an Irish pub for starting a fight.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Percival P. Cassidy
2017-08-17 14:46:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I observed the same in Australia, when growing up in a town with many
recent immigrants, from a variety of countries. Some integrated very
well into Australian life, and some didn't. I got the impression that
the Dutch immigrants became Australian, in their mannerisms and their
way of interacting with other people, especially quickly. One got the
impression that they'd even forgotten how to speak Dutch.
It's been said that *some* new immigrants of many different
nationalities, to many different countries, are so eager to integrate
that they refuse to speak their mother tongue at home. But their
children or grandchildren learn the language and perhaps even visit "the
old country" later, considering themselves in some way deprived.

OTOH, I have known Greek immigrant families who send their children to
after-school Greek classes and back "home" to Greece every summer. Many
Greek Orthodox churches in Oz and the USA still have a lot of Greek in
their services.
Post by Peter Moylan
Compare that with, for example, the Italians. They too integrated pretty
well, but they still lived in Italian neighbourhoods and socialised
mainly with other Italians. The Dutch never did that.
There are significant Dutch communities in the Dandenongs in Victoria,
Oz, and in parts of Wisconsin, Michigan, Washington (State), and California.

Perce
Peter Moylan
2017-08-17 16:35:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I observed the same in Australia, when growing up in a town with many
recent immigrants, from a variety of countries. Some integrated very
well into Australian life, and some didn't. I got the impression that
the Dutch immigrants became Australian, in their mannerisms and their
way of interacting with other people, especially quickly. One got the
impression that they'd even forgotten how to speak Dutch.
It's been said that *some* new immigrants of many different
nationalities, to many different countries, are so eager to integrate
that they refuse to speak their mother tongue at home. But their
children or grandchildren learn the language and perhaps even visit "the
old country" later, considering themselves in some way deprived.
That much I can understand, I am three generations separated from my
Irish roots, and I do want to learn the language, and I've visited the
"old country" twice. The Greeks, as you point out, go a lot further. I
can understand that.

What we have much more trouble understanding are the people who have
been under attack from the west for two or three generations, and whose
understanding of international relations boils down to "the Americans
want to kill us". The cultural gap between the victims and killers is so
great that detente is impossible. That gap is a lot harder to bridge.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-17 16:45:36 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
"The Dutch are the best Americans",
(unlike all others they didn't just integrate,
they -are- Americans)
What could you possibly mean? Aside from a special case of the axiom
that the Dutch are the best.
I observed the same in Australia, when growing up in a town with many
recent immigrants, from a variety of countries. Some integrated very
well into Australian life, and some didn't. I got the impression that
the Dutch immigrants became Australian, in their mannerisms and their
way of interacting with other people, especially quickly. One got the
impression that they'd even forgotten how to speak Dutch.
It's been said that *some* new immigrants of many different
nationalities, to many different countries, are so eager to integrate
that they refuse to speak their mother tongue at home. But their
children or grandchildren learn the language and perhaps even visit "the
old country" later, considering themselves in some way deprived.
That much I can understand, I am three generations separated from my
Irish roots, and I do want to learn the language,
You may find this interesting: http://www.omniglot.com/blog/?p=14384
Post by Peter Moylan
and I've visited the "old country" twice. The Greeks, as you point
out, go a lot further. I can understand that.
What we have much more trouble understanding are the people who have
been under attack from the west for two or three generations, and whose
understanding of international relations boils down to "the Americans
want to kill us". The cultural gap between the victims and killers is
so great that detente is impossible. That gap is a lot harder to bridge.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-19 03:26:53 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of
1859." The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death,
and the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for
me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse,
who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said
so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ą1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
After an inordinately long "Previously," in the second half Morse came up with
a highly plausible altnernative theory of the case, and there were both a
crossword (solving a clue in which gave him the last piece of the puzzle,
sending him to the west of Ireland to exhume a 150-year-old grave, which he
was gratified to find contained no body) and several pub interiors (where he
was abetted in drinking beer by several companions).

However, it also emerged that the supposed "Van Buren" was pronounced like
"Van Booren," varying between [U] and [u] and once [O]. President Van Buren
is [***@n].
RH Draney
2017-08-19 04:05:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
After an inordinately long "Previously," in the second half Morse came up with
a highly plausible altnernative theory of the case, and there were both a
crossword (solving a clue in which gave him the last piece of the puzzle,
sending him to the west of Ireland to exhume a 150-year-old grave, which he
was gratified to find contained no body) and several pub interiors (where he
was abetted in drinking beer by several companions).
However, it also emerged that the supposed "Van Buren" was pronounced like
"Van Booren," varying between [U] and [u] and once [O]. President Van Buren
Perhaps the influence of the 1920s animator Amadee van Beuren?...r
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-19 11:25:39 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
After an inordinately long "Previously," in the second half Morse came up with
a highly plausible altnernative theory of the case, and there were both a
crossword (solving a clue in which gave him the last piece of the puzzle,
sending him to the west of Ireland to exhume a 150-year-old grave, which he
was gratified to find contained no body) and several pub interiors (where he
was abetted in drinking beer by several companions).
However, it also emerged that the supposed "Van Buren" was pronounced like
"Van Booren," varying between [U] and [u] and once [O]. President Van Buren
Perhaps the influence of the 1920s animator Amadee van Beuren?...r
It was set in contemporary 1999 ... any idea how Brits pronounce the name
(regardless of how its owners say it -- cf. Chryzler Motors)?
Richard Tobin
2017-08-20 16:28:04 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
However, it also emerged that the supposed "Van Buren" was pronounced like
"Van Booren," varying between [U] and [u] and once [O]. President Van Buren
Perhaps the influence of the 1920s animator Amadee van Beuren?...r
It was set in contemporary 1999 ... any idea how Brits pronounce the name
(regardless of how its owners say it -- cf. Chryzler Motors)?
Since most of us never have occasion to say it, it probably varies.

-- Richard

J. J. Lodder
2017-08-19 13:48:19 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of
1859." The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death,
and the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for
me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse,
who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said
so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
After an inordinately long "Previously," in the second half Morse came up with
a highly plausible altnernative theory of the case, and there were both a
crossword (solving a clue in which gave him the last piece of the puzzle,
sending him to the west of Ireland to exhume a 150-year-old grave, which he
was gratified to find contained no body) and several pub interiors (where he
was abetted in drinking beer by several companions).
However, it also emerged that the supposed "Van Buren" was pronounced like
"Van Booren," varying between [U] and [u] and once [O]. President Van Buren
No problem, it is well known that Anglo-Saxons
can't do a Dutch u or uu,

Jan

PS Van Buuren and Van Bueren exist to, as spelling variants.
The pronunciation is the same.
(not to be confused with Van Beuren,
which is American fake Dutch,
and would be pronounced differently)
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-19 16:12:03 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of
1859." The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death,
and the trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for
me -- there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse,
who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said
so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and
specifically not a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
After an inordinately long "Previously," in the second half Morse came up with
a highly plausible altnernative theory of the case, and there were both a
crossword (solving a clue in which gave him the last piece of the puzzle,
sending him to the west of Ireland to exhume a 150-year-old grave, which he
was gratified to find contained no body) and several pub interiors (where he
was abetted in drinking beer by several companions).
However, it also emerged that the supposed "Van Buren" was pronounced like
"Van Booren," varying between [U] and [u] and once [O]. President Van Buren
No problem, it is well known that Anglo-Saxons
can't do a Dutch u or uu,
It's not a Dutch name, it's an American name, mispronounced by British actors.
Post by J. J. Lodder
PS Van Buuren and Van Bueren exist to, as spelling variants.
The pronunciation is the same.
(not to be confused with Van Beuren,
which is American fake Dutch,
and would be pronounced differently)
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-19 19:41:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I
tuned in to see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles.
Instead, I found him bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated
by alcoholism. with nary a puzzle and taking up a cold case --
the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859." The two layers of
flashback -- the events surrounding the death, and the trial
(with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for me --
there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued
Morse, who I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American
until they said so. She certainly had an odd accent, but not an
American one and specifically not a Boston one to go with her
professorship at B.U.
I saw those episodes years ago, and can't remember the character's
names. However, according to IMDb, there is a character name "Dr.
Millicent 'Millie' Van Buren". Sounds like your professor from B.U.
A real genuine Dutch name, not some fancy Van Something invention.
The Oranges are also entitled to the title 'Graaf van Buren',
(by mariage of William the Taciturn to countess Anna van Buren ?1550)
and some of them have used 'Van Buren'
as common name when doing something incognito.
So despite her being at B.U. this fictional personage
must be assumed to have a New York family background,
if only from long ago.
'Buren' is a small town in the centre of the Netherlands,
and 'Van Buren' is a common Dutch family name,
After an inordinately long "Previously," in the second half Morse came
up with a highly plausible altnernative theory of the case, and there
were both a crossword (solving a clue in which gave him the last piece
of the puzzle, sending him to the west of Ireland to exhume a
150-year-old grave, which he was gratified to find contained no body)
and several pub interiors (where he was abetted in drinking beer by
several companions).
However, it also emerged that the supposed "Van Buren" was pronounced
like "Van Booren," varying between [U] and [u] and once [O]. President
No problem, it is well known that Anglo-Saxons
can't do a Dutch u or uu,
It's not a Dutch name, it's an American name, mispronounced by British actors.
It is a Dutch name, mispronounced by Americans, to begin with,

Jan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
PS Van Buuren and Van Bueren exist to, as spelling variants.
The pronunciation is the same.
(not to be confused with Van Beuren,
which is American fake Dutch,
and would be pronounced differently)
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-13 18:48:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859."
The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death, and the
trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for me --
there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse, who
I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said so. She
certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and specifically not
a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
Morse's boss was trying to get him to retire two years early, Morse was
suspicious of Lewis (who was out of town), and he was lent a Constable
Kershaw to do the legwork, who during the course of which flirted with a
librarian, a Miss Ho.
It was a very impausible plot,
and a misplaced attempt (I feel)
to drag out the Morse sage by one more episode
as the real Morse (John Thaw) was really very ill,
(of an oesofaguscarcinoom, not drink)

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-13 19:28:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859."
The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death, and the
trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for me --
there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse, who
I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said so. She
certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and specifically not
a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
Morse's boss was trying to get him to retire two years early, Morse was
suspicious of Lewis (who was out of town), and he was lent a Constable
Kershaw to do the legwork, who during the course of which flirted with a
librarian, a Miss Ho.
It was a very impausible plot,
Also possibly the least typical of all Morse episodes: not a suitable
one for making a judgement on the whole series.

I think probably Josephine Tey invented the idea of a bed-bound
detective solving an ancient mystery (in The Daughter of Time).
Post by J. J. Lodder
and a misplaced attempt (I feel)
to drag out the Morse sage by one more episode
as the real Morse (John Thaw) was really very ill,
(of an oesofaguscarcinoom, not drink)
Jan
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-14 07:39:02 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859."
The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death, and the
trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for me --
there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse, who
I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said so. She
certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and specifically not
a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
Morse's boss was trying to get him to retire two years early, Morse was
suspicious of Lewis (who was out of town), and he was lent a Constable
Kershaw to do the legwork, who during the course of which flirted with a
librarian, a Miss Ho.
It was a very impausible plot,
Also possibly the least typical of all Morse episodes: not a suitable
one for making a judgement on the whole series.
I wasn't.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I think probably Josephine Tey invented the idea of a bed-bound
detective solving an ancient mystery (in The Daughter of Time).
Detectives solving mysteries at a distance,
(by superior deductive powers of course)
on basis of evidence acccumulated by others are as old as the genre.
(arguably beginning with Poe's Auguste Dupin)

Being bed-bound is just another variant, I think,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-14 14:29:12 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This evening CUNY-TV kindly put on an *Inspector Morse*, so I tuned in to
see those outdoor pubs and crossword puzzles. Instead, I found him
bedridden with a bleeding ulcer exacerbated by alcoholism. with nary a
puzzle and taking up a cold case -- the "Oxford canalboat murder of 1859."
The two layers of flashback -- the events surrounding the death, and the
trial (with a fair-minded judge) were well done, but -- just for me --
there was a criminologist, who wrote the book that intrigued Morse, who
I'd never have guessed was supposed to be American until they said so. She
certainly had an odd accent, but not an American one and specifically not
a Boston one to go with her professorship at B.U.
Morse's boss was trying to get him to retire two years early, Morse was
suspicious of Lewis (who was out of town), and he was lent a Constable
Kershaw to do the legwork, who during the course of which flirted with a
librarian, a Miss Ho.
It was a very impausible plot,
Also possibly the least typical of all Morse episodes: not a suitable
one for making a judgement on the whole series.
I wasn't.
I wasn't thinking of you.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I think probably Josephine Tey invented the idea of a bed-bound
detective solving an ancient mystery (in The Daughter of Time).
Detectives solving mysteries at a distance,
(by superior deductive powers of course)
on basis of evidence acccumulated by others are as old as the genre.
(arguably beginning with Poe's Auguste Dupin)
Being bed-bound is just another variant, I think,
Jan
--
athel
Don Phillipson
2017-08-15 20:25:14 UTC
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I think probably Josephine Tey invented the idea of a bed-bound detective
solving an ancient mystery (in The Daughter of Time).
It is also pretty old-fashioned even for 1951, in that what starts
the investigation is the only known portrait of Richard III which
the detective thinks cannot possibly be of a villain and murderer.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
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