Discussion:
“Sudden” or “Suddenly” is another practically useless word.
Add Reply
Hen Hanna
2018-07-28 17:32:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction), one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and [Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.

Really? Seriously?

... but lately and Suddenly, i found myself starting to think about [Suddenly] frequently -- Should i avoid them? and HOW can i avoid them?

Is there anyone else here who's thought about [Suddenly] or similar issues ?
“Sudden” or “Suddenly” is another practically useless word.
Anton Chekhov once said “Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass.”

<------- Isn't that a boring cliche, Anton?
In English translations, your stories are much more boring than Maupassant's.


Let the sentence or the action itself jar the reader into feeling the suddenness of the action. “Suddenly” ironically slows down the action and delays the actual suddenness of the sentence. Tit for the word, either. Just don't use it. Let the silence speak for itself to convey your message.



------- Do i spot an [ironically] which is way-overused by bad writers and dull minds ?
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-28 23:12:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction), one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and [Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Peter Moylan
2018-07-29 14:18:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however". We (and I'm no exception) tend not to notice our
own writing faults, so there can be some value in having someone pick up
our faults.

(Comparison: the only reason I pay a guitar teacher is so that he can
tell me what I'm doing wrong. If he stops doing that, I'll give up on him.)

Having said that, I don't deny that some creative writing courses are
bollocks. They might even be in the majority.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-29 14:45:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however". We (and I'm no exception) tend not to notice our
own writing faults, so there can be some value in having someone pick up
our faults.
Oh, of course, overuse is to be curbed. But the injunction is against
all use of 'very' and '-ly' adverbs which is simply absurd (see!) It's
one of those 'fads' that writers seem to be especially prone to like
Orwell's railing against the passive voice (in a passage which uses
the passive freely - go figure!)
Jerry Friedman
2018-07-29 17:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however". We (and I'm no exception) tend not to notice our
own writing faults, so there can be some value in having someone pick up
our faults.
Oh, of course, overuse is to be curbed. But the injunction is against
all use of 'very' and '-ly' adverbs which is simply absurd (see!)
In my opinion, that sentence would be a little better without "simply".

Also, there's no need to take Hen's word about the injunction. Probably
some teachers do give advice that's that simplistic, but others give more
sensible advice about what words their students are likely to overuse.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
It's
one of those 'fads' that writers seem to be especially prone to like
Orwell's railing against the passive voice (in a passage which uses
the passive freely - go figure!)
However, that one needs "freely".
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-29 16:49:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
[ … ]
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however".
Not really necessary to pay someone nowadays. I use my computer to find
every occurrence of, say, "very" and ask myelf with each one if it is
justified.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-29 20:35:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however".
Not really necessary to pay someone nowadays. I use my computer to find
every occurrence of, say, "very" and ask myelf with each one if it is
justified.
I did that with my book. Took out nearly every one of 'em.
Peter Percival
2018-07-30 13:46:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however"
Why? A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
Post by Peter Moylan
. We (and I'm no exception) tend not to notice our
own writing faults, so there can be some value in having someone pick up
our faults.
(Comparison: the only reason I pay a guitar teacher is so that he can
tell me what I'm doing wrong. If he stops doing that, I'll give up on him.)
Having said that, I don't deny that some creative writing courses are
bollocks. They might even be in the majority.
Katy Jennison
2018-07-30 15:47:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however"
Why?  A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave it
for 24 hours and re-read it. I'm frequently re-reading and adjusting
infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in two adjacent
paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or an alternative.
Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list do the same?
--
Katy Jennison
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-30 15:54:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however"
Why?  A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave it
for 24 hours and re-read it. I'm frequently re-reading and adjusting
infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in two adjacent
paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or an alternative.
Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list do the same?
You fantasist! I've read, or at least, tried to read, published books
whose authors show no signs of having done that. Do you think Trump
re-reads his tweets and adjusts infelicities?
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-30 16:02:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however"
Why?  A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave it
for 24 hours and re-read it. I'm frequently re-reading and adjusting
infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in two adjacent
paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or an alternative.
Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list do the same?
You fantasist! I've read, or at least, tried to read, published books
whose authors show no signs of having done that. Do you think Trump
re-reads his tweets and adjusts infelicities?
Its author says there's no evidence that Trump has read *The Art of the
Deal*. It's manifest every day that he never did get around to reading
the US Constitution, whether the copy lent by Mr. Khan or any other.
Katy Jennison
2018-07-30 17:34:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-07-30 17:47:36 +0200, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however"
Why?  A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave it
for 24 hours and re-read it.  I'm frequently re-reading and adjusting
infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in two adjacent
paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or an alternative.
Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list do the same?
You fantasist! I've read, or at least, tried to read, published books
whose authors show no signs of having done that.  Do you think Trump
re-reads his tweets and adjusts infelicities?
Do you think Trump waits 24 hours? Anyway, I said 'should'. No, dash
it all, of course we don't really.
--
Katy Jennison
LFS
2018-07-31 09:36:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-07-30 17:47:36 +0200, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however"
Why?  A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave
it for 24 hours and re-read it.  I'm frequently re-reading and
adjusting infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in
two adjacent paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or
an alternative. Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list
do the same?
You fantasist! I've read, or at least, tried to read, published books
whose authors show no signs of having done that.  Do you think Trump
re-reads his tweets and adjusts infelicities?
Do you think Trump waits 24 hours?  Anyway, I said 'should'.  No, dash
it all, of course we don't really.
I've just been reading something I wrote 24 years ago and wishing I'd
edited it a bit more...
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
John Varela
2018-07-31 18:12:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:54:49 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however"
Why?  A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave it
for 24 hours and re-read it. I'm frequently re-reading and adjusting
infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in two adjacent
paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or an alternative.
Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list do the same?
You fantasist! I've read, or at least, tried to read, published books
whose authors show no signs of having done that. Do you think Trump
re-reads his tweets and adjusts infelicities?
Oh, of covfefe he does.
--
John Varela
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-30 16:00:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however"
Why?  A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave it
for 24 hours and re-read it. I'm frequently re-reading and adjusting
infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in two adjacent
paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or an alternative.
Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list do the same?
Oy, you should see some of the mss. I've edited! My current one was a
dissertation, and I'm trying valiantly to de-dissertationize it. Someone
seems to have told him never to use pronouns or subordinate clauses.
HVS
2018-07-30 17:34:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 16:47:36 +0100, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and
non-fiction),
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however"
Why?  A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave it
for 24 hours and re-read it. I'm frequently re-reading and
adjusting
Post by Katy Jennison
infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in two
adjacent
Post by Katy Jennison
paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or an
alternative.
Post by Katy Jennison
Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list do the same?
They *should*, but.....

(I still need to print off a hard copy for re-reading/editing what
I've written; I can't do nearly as good a job trying to do it on a
screen.)
Stefan Ram
2018-07-30 18:27:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by HVS
(I still need to print off a hard copy for re-reading/editing what
I've written; I can't do nearly as good a job trying to do it on a
screen.)
Try:
- waiting some hours (e.g., like, 24)
- changing the background and text colors
- using a very large font size
- using a very different font family than used for writing

A computer program can also be used to highlight certain
words (like "however") or character groups. I am sometimes
using a program to highlight the /endings/ of words.

Of course, there are also spellcheckers, they can even
be customized with a custom dictionary.

(When a text is very important, of course, the best thing
is to have other people read it.)
John Varela
2018-07-31 18:10:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:47:36 UTC, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave it
for 24 hours and re-read it. I'm frequently re-reading and adjusting
infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in two adjacent
paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or an alternative.
Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list do the same?
I used to do that when I had time, but (I tend to overuse "but")
often there weren't 24 hours to be had. About the only thing I
write these days is news group postings, and there's no way to let
them age for 24 hours before sending.
--
John Varela
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-02 09:00:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Varela
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:47:36 UTC, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave it
for 24 hours and re-read it. I'm frequently re-reading and adjusting
infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in two adjacent
paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or an alternative.
Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list do the same?
I used to do that when I had time, but (I tend to overuse "but")
often there weren't 24 hours to be had. About the only thing I
write these days is news group postings, and there's no way to let
them age for 24 hours before sending.
+1. People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-02 11:29:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by John Varela
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:47:36 UTC, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Not just that, but you should readily spot it yourself if you leave it
for 24 hours and re-read it. I'm frequently re-reading and adjusting
infelicities, or noticing that I've used the same word in two adjacent
paragraphs and replacing one of them with a synonym or an alternative.
Doesn't everyone who writes more than a shopping-list do the same?
I used to do that when I had time, but (I tend to overuse "but")
often there weren't 24 hours to be had. About the only thing I
write these days is news group postings, and there's no way to let
them age for 24 hours before sending.
+1. People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
A crossword puzzle book I've been going through in two places clues him
as a Christie sleuth. It was infuriating.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Al Franken's life-coach character on SNL "Stuart Smalley" used that.
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-02 14:55:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On 8/2/18 3:00 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Various forms of that were frequent in my childhood. "Put an ass before
you and me" is probably the best. I wonder whether Sayers originated it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Rich Ulrich
2018-08-02 17:13:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:55:21 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Various forms of that were frequent in my childhood. "Put an ass before
you and me" is probably the best. I wonder whether Sayers originated it.
The other day, I saw a picture of a fellow wearing a
tee shirt that had in big letters,

TEIAM
--
Rich Ulrich
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-05 16:46:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:55:21 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Various forms of that were frequent in my childhood. "Put an ass before
you and me" is probably the best. I wonder whether Sayers originated it.
The other day, I saw a picture of a fellow wearing a
tee shirt that had in big letters,
TEIAM
Had to google that. If I so wished I could buy such a shirt from
Amazon, so I imagine they're quite common. I won't be ordering one.
--
athel
Tony Cooper
2018-08-05 18:44:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 18:46:56 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:55:21 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Various forms of that were frequent in my childhood. "Put an ass before
you and me" is probably the best. I wonder whether Sayers originated it.
The other day, I saw a picture of a fellow wearing a
tee shirt that had in big letters,
TEIAM
Had to google that. If I so wished I could buy such a shirt from
Amazon, so I imagine they're quite common. I won't be ordering one.
I saw a girl today in a tee shirt that said "Make America Emo Again".

Even after finding several explanations on the web, I still don't have
a grasp of the message.

Hats, tee shirts, and other things bearing this phrase are available.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 18:52:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 18:46:56 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:55:21 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Various forms of that were frequent in my childhood. "Put an ass before
you and me" is probably the best. I wonder whether Sayers originated it.
The other day, I saw a picture of a fellow wearing a
tee shirt that had in big letters,
TEIAM
Had to google that. If I so wished I could buy such a shirt from
Amazon, so I imagine they're quite common. I won't be ordering one.
Does that mean he does or doesn't think that there's no I in TEAM?

Oh, right, they were never subjected to team play and so never learned
the slogan.
Post by Tony Cooper
I saw a girl today in a tee shirt that said "Make America Emo Again".
Even after finding several explanations on the web, I still don't have
a grasp of the message.
Hats, tee shirts, and other things bearing this phrase are available.
Emo is a particularly sullen offshoot of punk rock. Male ones tend to be
androgynous, skinny, long-haired, affecting somewhat goth styles. Female
ones seem to be indistinguishable from them.
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-06 01:51:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:55:21 -0600, Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Various forms of that were frequent in my childhood.  "Put an ass before
you and me" is probably the best.  I wonder whether Sayers originated
it.
The other day, I saw a picture of a fellow wearing a
tee shirt that had in big letters,
   TEIAM
:-)
Had to google that. If I so wished I could buy such a shirt from Amazon,
so I imagine they're quite common.
Does not follow. I've never seen one, and apparently neither has Rich
except in a picture.
I won't be ordering one.
--
Jerry Friedman
Rich Ulrich
2018-08-06 06:00:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 18:46:56 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:55:21 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Various forms of that were frequent in my childhood. "Put an ass before
you and me" is probably the best. I wonder whether Sayers originated it.
The other day, I saw a picture of a fellow wearing a
tee shirt that had in big letters,
TEIAM
Had to google that. If I so wished I could buy such a shirt from
Amazon, so I imagine they're quite common. I won't be ordering one.
The ngram for "no i in TEAM" shows no hits for British English.

Earliest for American English is 1972 and 1977, with a strong increase
after 2000 (shown to 2008).

After years of speeches by coaches, all our athletes now are ego-free.
--
Rich Ulrich
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 11:27:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 18:46:56 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:55:21 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Various forms of that were frequent in my childhood. "Put an ass before
you and me" is probably the best. I wonder whether Sayers originated it.
The other day, I saw a picture of a fellow wearing a
tee shirt that had in big letters,
TEIAM
Had to google that. If I so wished I could buy such a shirt from
Amazon, so I imagine they're quite common. I won't be ordering one.
The ngram for "no i in TEAM" shows no hits for British English.
Earliest for American English is 1972 and 1977, with a strong increase
after 2000 (shown to 2008).
After years of speeches by coaches, all our athletes now are ego-free.
I think I might have heard the name "Tyrell Owens" before this weekend,
though with no idea why. He was a "story" because he was one of eight?
new inductees into the Football Hall of Fame but chose not to attend the
ceremony but instead had his own ceremony at his alma mater in Tennessee.
Apparently he's so important that NPR, telling the story three times
independently, didn't think it necessary to name any of the other honorees.

The nice thing about the story is that he was passed over (despite being
apparently very good at football) on his two previous eligibilities because
he's a real jackass, especially to the press -- it's the sportswriters who
vote on HoF membership.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-08-06 11:38:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 18:46:56 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:55:21 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who assume that the number of misspellings, omitted words,
etc. that occur in my posts are a guide to my professional style assume
wrong.
Post by John Varela
When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Various forms of that were frequent in my childhood. "Put an ass before
you and me" is probably the best. I wonder whether Sayers originated it.
The other day, I saw a picture of a fellow wearing a
tee shirt that had in big letters,
TEIAM
Had to google that. If I so wished I could buy such a shirt from
Amazon, so I imagine they're quite common. I won't be ordering one.
The ngram for "no i in TEAM" shows no hits for British English.
Earliest for American English is 1972 and 1977, with a strong increase
after 2000 (shown to 2008).
After years of speeches by coaches, all our athletes now are ego-free.
I think I might have heard the name "Tyrell Owens" before this weekend,
though with no idea why. He was a "story" because he was one of eight?
new inductees into the Football Hall of Fame but chose not to attend the
ceremony but instead had his own ceremony at his alma mater in Tennessee.
Apparently he's so important that NPR, telling the story three times
independently, didn't think it necessary to name any of the other honorees.
The nice thing about the story is that he was passed over (despite being
apparently very good at football) on his two previous eligibilities because
he's a real jackass, especially to the press -- it's the sportswriters who
vote on HoF membership.
Terrell.
Joy Beeson
2018-08-06 03:20:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Varela
About the only thing I
write these days is news group postings, and there's no way to let
them age for 24 hours before sending.
You don't have "save as draft"?

I frequently find it sufficient to read a few other threads before
sending. Sometimes to the newsgroup, sometimes to the trash.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
John Varela
2018-08-07 00:22:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 03:20:50 UTC, Joy Beeson
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by John Varela
About the only thing I
write these days is news group postings, and there's no way to let
them age for 24 hours before sending.
You don't have "save as draft"?
I have the equivalent: I can have multiple responses open and unsent
at the same time.
Post by Joy Beeson
I frequently find it sufficient to read a few other threads before
sending. Sometimes to the newsgroup, sometimes to the trash.
That's not 24 hours. I was talking about 24 hours. The reason I
can't, or at least don't, age things 24 hours is that (1) most
ostings are so short they don't need it and (2) news groups, or at
least this one, which is the only one I am at all active in, move so
fast that a day-old post has been overtaken by the flood of new
posts.
--
John Varela
Joy Beeson
2018-08-09 13:56:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Varela
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 03:20:50 UTC, Joy Beeson
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by John Varela
About the only thing I
write these days is news group postings, and there's no way to let
them age for 24 hours before sending.
You don't have "save as draft"?
I have the equivalent: I can have multiple responses open and unsent
at the same time.
Post by Joy Beeson
I frequently find it sufficient to read a few other threads before
sending. Sometimes to the newsgroup, sometimes to the trash.
That's not 24 hours. I was talking about 24 hours. The reason I
can't, or at least don't, age things 24 hours is that (1) most
ostings are so short they don't need it and (2) news groups, or at
least this one, which is the only one I am at all active in, move so
fast that a day-old post has been overtaken by the flood of new
posts.
And another problem with aging overnight is that I frequently forget
to send it in the morning.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Peter Moylan
2018-07-31 02:41:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and
non-fiction), one of the first things they tell you is to stop
using [Very] and [Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a
load of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however".
There are probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move
into a writing career, I would probably be willing to pay someone
to stop me from using "very" and "however"
Why? A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
A word processor doesn't have the critical skills to be able to point
out which stylistic tics are likely to irritate readers.

Counting words would probably tell me that I use "a" and "the" a lot,
but that's not considered to be a writing fault.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
David Kleinecke
2018-07-31 05:20:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and
non-fiction), one of the first things they tell you is to stop
using [Very] and [Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a
load of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however".
There are probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move
into a writing career, I would probably be willing to pay someone
to stop me from using "very" and "however"
Why? A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
A word processor doesn't have the critical skills to be able to point
out which stylistic tics are likely to irritate readers.
Counting words would probably tell me that I use "a" and "the" a lot,
but that's not considered to be a writing fault.
If what I understand about neural networks is true what we
need to do is: Make a collection of short texts which people
like or dislike intensely and then feed these texts to the
network with the correct feedback. After enough training the
network will be able to predict the human response with good
accuracy. But it will not be able to tell us why one text is
and liked and another disliked.
Rich Ulrich
2018-07-31 21:51:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 22:20:39 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and
non-fiction), one of the first things they tell you is to stop
using [Very] and [Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a
load of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however".
There are probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move
into a writing career, I would probably be willing to pay someone
to stop me from using "very" and "however"
Why? A word processor ought to be able to count the number of
occurrences of a particular word.
A word processor doesn't have the critical skills to be able to point
out which stylistic tics are likely to irritate readers.
Counting words would probably tell me that I use "a" and "the" a lot,
but that's not considered to be a writing fault.
If what I understand about neural networks is true what we
need to do is: Make a collection of short texts which people
like or dislike intensely and then feed these texts to the
network with the correct feedback.
"Feed these texts" is not an adequate description, unless you
have pre-defined a system of parameters. That is, "text"
consists of more than an the list of words. This suggests to
me an alternate system of training -- Create several texts using
exactly the same words (for the important words) in different
orders; start with something aphoristic, so it is "best". You
need a system - based on parameters - that discriminates among
those.
Post by David Kleinecke
After enough training the
network will be able to predict the human response with good
accuracy.
With as many continuous, non-tied parameters as there are
texts, you can POST-dict, i.e., "fit", perfectly.

"Prediction" is tested with cross-validation. For a lot of hypotheses,
a lot of cross-validation. There should be enough cross-validation
so that crappy parameters will, indeed, show crappy results, or
you are just cherry-picking results, and your resuts will not work
when moved to the real world.
Post by David Kleinecke
But it will not be able to tell us why one text is
and liked and another disliked.
You need content-experts to set up the useful parameters. I'm
not sure of this, but I think that systems, so far, are "simple"
enough (though, with tedious detail) that any competent
statisitican shoud be able to track back to see the major influences.

And someone is probably guilty of malpractice if they don't
look that carefully at systems that make important decisions.
I'm curious - Has anyone heard of a system in use that was/is
considered un-checkable in that way?
--
Rich Ulrich
Peter Percival
2018-07-30 13:48:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
Am I alone in being annoyed by "so" at the start of every (it often
seems) sentence?
Post by Peter Moylan
probably other words that I overuse. If I wanted to move into a writing
career, I would probably be willing to pay someone to stop me from using
"very" and "however". We (and I'm no exception) tend not to notice our
own writing faults, so there can be some value in having someone pick up
our faults.
(Comparison: the only reason I pay a guitar teacher is so that he can
tell me what I'm doing wrong. If he stops doing that, I'll give up on him.)
Having said that, I don't deny that some creative writing courses are
bollocks. They might even be in the majority.
bill van
2018-07-30 18:15:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
Am I alone in being annoyed by "so" at the start of every (it often
seems) sentence?
It doesn't seem so to me. I start a sentence with "So" from time to
time, and I hear others doing it, but not frequently.

My guess is that starting a sentence with "So" is mainly a North
American thing, and that it may grate a bit on the rightpondian ear.

But I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to let yourself be annoyed by
English usages from other places. That could become a full-time
occupation.

bill
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-07-30 20:09:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
Am I alone in being annoyed by "so" at the start of every (it often
seems) sentence?
It doesn't seem so to me. I start a sentence with "So" from time to
time, and I hear others doing it, but not frequently.
My guess is that starting a sentence with "So" is mainly a North
American thing, and that it may grate a bit on the rightpondian ear.
It grates on some rightpondian ears, but I doubt whether it is mainly a
North American thing. I was recently watching a TV show (in the UK) in
which an expert on something or other was being interviewed by the host.
Every answer to a question started "So...". It was not a confrontational
interview, but one designed for the interviewee to explain something for
the benefit of viewers.

I've seen a few similar interviews previously in which every answer
started "So...". Other people use "So..." frequently but not in answer
to every question.
Post by bill van
But I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to let yourself be annoyed by
English usages from other places. That could become a full-time
occupation.
bill
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-30 20:59:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
Am I alone in being annoyed by "so" at the start of every (it often
seems) sentence?
It doesn't seem so to me. I start a sentence with "So" from time to
time, and I hear others doing it, but not frequently.
My guess is that starting a sentence with "So" is mainly a North
American thing, and that it may grate a bit on the rightpondian ear.
It grates on some rightpondian ears, but I doubt whether it is mainly a
North American thing. I was recently watching a TV show (in the UK) in
which an expert on something or other was being interviewed by the host.
Every answer to a question started "So...". It was not a confrontational
interview, but one designed for the interviewee to explain something for
the benefit of viewers.
I've seen a few similar interviews previously in which every answer
started "So...". Other people use "So..." frequently but not in answer
to every question.
So?

It's a verbal tic. There are things more worthy of your wrath!
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-07-30 22:29:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:59:21 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction),
one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a load
of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
Am I alone in being annoyed by "so" at the start of every (it often
seems) sentence?
It doesn't seem so to me. I start a sentence with "So" from time to
time, and I hear others doing it, but not frequently.
My guess is that starting a sentence with "So" is mainly a North
American thing, and that it may grate a bit on the rightpondian ear.
It grates on some rightpondian ears, but I doubt whether it is mainly a
North American thing. I was recently watching a TV show (in the UK) in
which an expert on something or other was being interviewed by the host.
Every answer to a question started "So...". It was not a confrontational
interview, but one designed for the interviewee to explain something for
the benefit of viewers.
I've seen a few similar interviews previously in which every answer
started "So...". Other people use "So..." frequently but not in answer
to every question.
So?
It's a verbal tic. There are things more worthy of your wrath!
I'm not wrathful. It's just distracting.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Stefan Ram
2018-07-30 22:59:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Every answer to a question started "So...". It was not a confrontational
Two talks at the cppcon 2017, I just happened to listen to:

Talk at the cppcon 2017 by Jason Turner:
First sentence: "So, if you're looking for practical C++ ...".
Last sentence: "Thanks everyone!" (no "so")

Talk at the cppcon 2017 by Herb Sutter.
First sentence: "So, just before we get started ...".
Last words: "So, I hang around for few more ... Thank you very much
for coming and enjoy your lunch!"

"So, " seems to mean <begin of paragraph>.

In fact, prosodical analysis has this concept of a
"paragraph" of speech IIRC.
Snidely
2018-07-31 08:30:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Stefan Ram is guilty of <so-***@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de> as
of 7/30/2018 3:59:15 PM
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Every answer to a question started "So...". It was not a confrontational
First sentence: "So, if you're looking for practical C++ ...".
Last sentence: "Thanks everyone!" (no "so")
Talk at the cppcon 2017 by Herb Sutter.
First sentence: "So, just before we get started ...".
Last words: "So, I hang around for few more ... Thank you very much
for coming and enjoy your lunch!"
"So, " seems to mean <begin of paragraph>.
No, it means beginning of sentence, with a visible time for the turbine
to reach full RPM.
Post by Stefan Ram
In fact, prosodical analysis has this concept of a
"paragraph" of speech IIRC.
That may be, but "so" isn't that precise.

/dps
--
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-07-31 11:09:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Snidely
of 7/30/2018 3:59:15 PM
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Every answer to a question started "So...". It was not a confrontational
First sentence: "So, if you're looking for practical C++ ...".
Last sentence: "Thanks everyone!" (no "so")
Talk at the cppcon 2017 by Herb Sutter.
First sentence: "So, just before we get started ...".
Last words: "So, I hang around for few more ... Thank you very much
for coming and enjoy your lunch!"
"So, " seems to mean <begin of paragraph>.
No, it means beginning of sentence, with a visible time for the turbine
to reach full RPM.
In some contexts I'm increasingly hearing it without a noticeable pause.
Post by Snidely
Post by Stefan Ram
In fact, prosodical analysis has this concept of a
"paragraph" of speech IIRC.
That may be, but "so" isn't that precise.
/dps
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Richard Yates
2018-07-31 11:52:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Snidely
of 7/30/2018 3:59:15 PM
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Every answer to a question started "So...". It was not a confrontational
First sentence: "So, if you're looking for practical C++ ...".
Last sentence: "Thanks everyone!" (no "so")
Talk at the cppcon 2017 by Herb Sutter.
First sentence: "So, just before we get started ...".
Last words: "So, I hang around for few more ... Thank you very much
for coming and enjoy your lunch!"
"So, " seems to mean <begin of paragraph>.
No, it means beginning of sentence, with a visible time for the turbine
to reach full RPM.
Post by Stefan Ram
In fact, prosodical analysis has this concept of a
"paragraph" of speech IIRC.
That may be, but "so" isn't that precise.
I am sure that its uses varies, but it usually seems to be a marker
prefacing for a more extended discourse. I don't think I have heard it
used to start a single, shortish sentence (barring its use to mean
"therefore").
Jerry Friedman
2018-07-31 14:55:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Snidely
of 7/30/2018 3:59:15 PM
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Every answer to a question started "So...". It was not a confrontational
First sentence: "So, if you're looking for practical C++ ...".
Last sentence: "Thanks everyone!" (no "so")
Talk at the cppcon 2017 by Herb Sutter.
First sentence: "So, just before we get started ...".
Last words: "So, I hang around for few more ... Thank you very much
for coming and enjoy your lunch!"
"So, " seems to mean <begin of paragraph>.
No, it means beginning of sentence, with a visible time for the turbine
to reach full RPM.
Post by Stefan Ram
In fact, prosodical analysis has this concept of a
"paragraph" of speech IIRC.
That may be, but "so" isn't that precise.
I am sure that its uses varies, but it usually seems to be a marker
prefacing for a more extended discourse. I don't think I have heard it
used to start a single, shortish sentence (barring its use to mean
"therefore").
Here's "So his name is Corey Coleman."

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/30/634117035/former-fema-official-under-investigation-for-fostering-culture-of-sexual-harassm

What struck me when I heard that last night, though, was the
interviewee's use of "That's right" to start an answers, when the
interviewer wasn't asking an "Is that right?" question. She also
started an answer with a "Right" that I thought was equally weird, but
now that I look at the transcript, I see what she meant.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2018-07-31 02:47:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and
non-fiction), one of the first things they tell you is to stop
using [Very] and [Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
The more you pay for a 'course' the more likely it is to be a
load of bollocks. This is a classic example.
Not entirely. I have noticed that I tend to overuse "however". There are
Am I alone in being annoyed by "so" at the start of every (it often
seems) sentence?
In my Walter Mitty moments I sometimes imagine myself being interviewed
on TV. If it happens, I would like to stand still for several seconds
after the question, nodding my head, and then reply "So, absolutely!"

The interviewer probably wouldn't recognise the parody, though.

(In case this doesn't happen in other countries: people interviewed by
the ABC appear to have been told never to say "yes". The answer to a
binary question is either "no" or "absolutely".)
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Percival
2018-07-30 13:44:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction), one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and [Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
I've heard, e.g., "suddenly the 'phone rang". That's silly because the
'phone can only ring in one way. But there are sensible uses for
"suddenly". Compare seeing something in the distance or through a mist
and it slowly coming clearly into view, with turning a corner and seeing
something... well... suddenly.
Post by Hen Hanna
Really? Seriously?
... but lately and Suddenly, i found myself starting to think about [Suddenly] frequently -- Should i avoid them? and HOW can i avoid them?
Is there anyone else here who's thought about [Suddenly] or similar issues ?
“Sudden” or “Suddenly” is another practically useless word.
Anton Chekhov once said “Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass.”
<------- Isn't that a boring cliche,
No.
Post by Hen Hanna
Anton?
In English translations, your stories are much more boring than Maupassant's.
Let the sentence or the action itself jar the reader into feeling the suddenness of the action. “Suddenly” ironically slows down the action and delays the actual suddenness of the sentence. Tit for the word, either. Just don't use it. Let the silence speak for itself to convey your message.
------- Do i spot an [ironically] which is way-overused by bad writers and dull minds ?
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-30 15:09:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction), one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and [Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
I've heard, e.g., "suddenly the 'phone rang". That's silly because the
'phone can only ring in one way. But there are sensible uses for
"suddenly".
Would you prefer "startlingly"?

In that sentence, "suddenly" does not describe the kind of ringing -- it's
not an adverb modifying the verb; it's a "sentence adverb," modifying the
entire event of a phone ringing.
Post by Peter Percival
Compare seeing something in the distance or through a mist
and it slowly coming clearly into view, with turning a corner and seeing
something... well... suddenly.
How is that different from the phone's ring?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-30 15:56:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction), one
of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and
[Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
I've heard, e.g., "suddenly the 'phone rang". That's silly because the
'phone can only ring in one way. But there are sensible uses for
"suddenly".
Would you prefer "startlingly"?
In that sentence, "suddenly" does not describe the kind of ringing -- it's
not an adverb modifying the verb; it's a "sentence adverb," modifying the
entire event of a phone ringing.
Yes, it was sudden in relation to what the speaker was doing at the time.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Percival
Compare seeing something in the distance or through a mist
and it slowly coming clearly into view, with turning a corner and seeing
something... well... suddenly.
How is that different from the phone's ring?
--
athel
Peter Percival
2018-07-30 17:30:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction), one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and [Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
I've heard, e.g., "suddenly the 'phone rang". That's silly because the
'phone can only ring in one way. But there are sensible uses for
"suddenly".
Would you prefer "startlingly"?
Yes. Someone may be startled or may not be startled, so that makes sense.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
In that sentence, "suddenly" does not describe the kind of ringing -- it's
not an adverb modifying the verb; it's a "sentence adverb," modifying the
entire event of a phone ringing.
Post by Peter Percival
Compare seeing something in the distance or through a mist
and it slowly coming clearly into view, with turning a corner and seeing
something... well... suddenly.
How is that different from the phone's ring?
Peter Percival
2018-07-30 17:38:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Hen Hanna
Apparently, in creative writing courses (fiction and non-fiction), one of the first things they tell you is to stop using [Very] and [Suddenly] and other [-ly] adverbs.
I've heard, e.g., "suddenly the 'phone rang". That's silly because the
'phone can only ring in one way. But there are sensible uses for
"suddenly".
Would you prefer "startlingly"?
In that sentence, "suddenly" does not describe the kind of ringing -- it's
not an adverb modifying the verb; it's a "sentence adverb," modifying the
entire event of a phone ringing.
Post by Peter Percival
Compare seeing something in the distance or through a mist
and it slowly coming clearly into view, with turning a corner and seeing
something... well... suddenly.
How is that different from the phone's ring?
Imagine yourself walking down a long road. Coming towards you is a
friend but when they are rather distant you only think it may be he. As
he gets nearer you become more sure it is he. Compare that, if you
will, to turning a corner in a road and seeing your friend just a few
feet in front of you.
Quinn C
2018-08-01 18:17:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Percival
Imagine yourself walking down a long road. Coming towards you is a
friend but when they are rather distant you only think it may be he. As
he gets nearer you become more sure it is he.
Oh, hello, Dr. Webster. When I saw you from back there, I thought it
was your brother, Sgt. Webster. But as you came closer, I recognized it
was you. And now that you stand right in front of me, I realize that
you are in fact your brother!
--
The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable
-- Paul Broca
... who never questioned that men are more intelligent than women
Loading...