Discussion:
Cook's tour
(too old to reply)
Tacia
2018-05-12 16:50:59 UTC
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Ladies and Gentlemen,

A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.

In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)

Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.

*1: [ https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cRDgLpFgKHZOo3YtUhocYxcCuV7ikSfP/view ] (an uploaded picture)
*2: [ https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cooks-tour ]

Best Wishes,
Tacia
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 17:08:03 UTC
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On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, Tacia wrote:

> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>
> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
>
> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>
> *1: [ https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cRDgLpFgKHZOo3YtUhocYxcCuV7ikSfP/view ] (an uploaded picture)
> *2: [ https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cooks-tour ]

Certainly my mother used to say it, but she must have acquired it back when
Messrs Cook were an actual tour guide company.

It might be recognized today as an old-fashioned expression.

"A quick tour" or "a lightning visit" are suitable clichés.
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 17:17:33 UTC
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On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>
>In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
>
>Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>

If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase in
my view.

I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of the
highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.

I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.

I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-12 19:36:45 UTC
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On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
><***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>
>>A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>>
>>In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
>>
>>Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>
>
>If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
>not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase in
>my view.
>
>I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of the
>highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>
>I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>
The OED has:

Cook's tour, n.
Etymology: < the name of Thomas Cook (1808–92), travel agent.

A tour, esp. one in which many places are viewed; any journey of
wide extent; also fig.

1922 S. Lewis Babbitt ix. 126 Dante..the fellow that took the
Cook's Tour to Hell.
1928 C. A. Nicholson Hell & Duchess II. iii. 248 She has yet..to
do her Cook's tour, as it were: the Louvre, Cluny,
Sainte-Chapelle.
1969 ‘A. Glyn’ Dragon Variation viii. 229 Sightseeing!.. It
isn't a question of taking a Cook's Tour round the city.


>I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
John Varela
2018-05-14 18:17:28 UTC
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On Sat, 12 May 2018 19:36:45 UTC, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
> ><***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Ladies and Gentlemen,
> >>
> >>A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
> >>
> >>In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
> >>
> >>Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
> >>
> >
> >If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
> >not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase in
> >my view.
> >
> >I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of the
> >highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
> >covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
> >
> >I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
> >necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
> >
> The OED has:
>
> Cook's tour, n.
> Etymology: < the name of Thomas Cook (180892), travel agent.
>
> A tour, esp. one in which many places are viewed; any journey of
> wide extent; also fig.

That's what I've always understood it to mean.

I'm inclined to accept the OED as somewhat more authoritative than
"A second-hand idiom reference book ... published by a Hong Kong
publisher".

--
John Varela
Tony Cooper
2018-05-14 18:49:40 UTC
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On 14 May 2018 18:17:28 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
wrote:

>On Sat, 12 May 2018 19:36:45 UTC, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
><***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>> ><***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>> >>
>> >>A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>> >>
>> >>In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
>> >>
>> >>Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>> >>
>> >
>> >If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
>> >not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase in
>> >my view.
>> >
>> >I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of the
>> >highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>> >covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>> >
>> >I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>> >necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>> >
>> The OED has:
>>
>> Cook's tour, n.
>> Etymology: < the name of Thomas Cook (180892), travel agent.
>>
>> A tour, esp. one in which many places are viewed; any journey of
>> wide extent; also fig.
>
>That's what I've always understood it to mean.
>
>I'm inclined to accept the OED as somewhat more authoritative than
>"A second-hand idiom reference book ... published by a Hong Kong
>publisher".

So am I, but I also understand that some phrases are used differently
from the Authentic Definition. For example, if you visit someone's
new house for the first time they may offer you a "Cook's tour" of the
house.

There's no journey involved, but a tour is offered. What will be
shown on the tour are the highlights of the house. The host has not,
in my opinion, misused the phrase.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Sam Plusnet
2018-05-14 20:55:18 UTC
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On 14-May-18 19:49, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On 14 May 2018 18:17:28 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 19:36:45 UTC, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
>> <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>>>>
>>>>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
>>>>>
>>>>> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
>>>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase in
>>>> my view.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of the
>>>> highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>>>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>>>>
>>>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>>>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>>>>
>>> The OED has:
>>>
>>> Cook's tour, n.
>>> Etymology: < the name of Thomas Cook (180892), travel agent.
>>>
>>> A tour, esp. one in which many places are viewed; any journey of
>>> wide extent; also fig.
>>
>> That's what I've always understood it to mean.
>>
>> I'm inclined to accept the OED as somewhat more authoritative than
>> "A second-hand idiom reference book ... published by a Hong Kong
>> publisher".
>
> So am I, but I also understand that some phrases are used differently
> from the Authentic Definition. For example, if you visit someone's
> new house for the first time they may offer you a "Cook's tour" of the
> house.
>
> There's no journey involved, but a tour is offered. What will be
> shown on the tour are the highlights of the house. The host has not,
> in my opinion, misused the phrase.
>

This might be a quantum leap in our understanding of "Cook's tour".


--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-14 21:25:14 UTC
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On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 4:55:22 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 14-May-18 19:49, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On 14 May 2018 18:17:28 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> > wrote:
> >> On Sat, 12 May 2018 19:36:45 UTC, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
> >> <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
> >>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
> >>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>>>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
> >>>>> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
> >>>>> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
> >>>>>
> >>>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
> >>>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase in
> >>>> my view.
> >>>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of the
> >>>> highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
> >>>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
> >>>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
> >>>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
> >>> The OED has:
> >>> Cook's tour, n.
> >>> Etymology: < the name of Thomas Cook (1808 92), travel agent.
> >>> A tour, esp. one in which many places are viewed; any journey of
> >>> wide extent; also fig.
> >> That's what I've always understood it to mean.
> >> I'm inclined to accept the OED as somewhat more authoritative than
> >> "A second-hand idiom reference book ... published by a Hong Kong
> >> publisher".
> > So am I, but I also understand that some phrases are used differently
> > from the Authentic Definition. For example, if you visit someone's
> > new house for the first time they may offer you a "Cook's tour" of the
> > house.
> > There's no journey involved, but a tour is offered. What will be
> > shown on the tour are the highlights of the house. The host has not,
> > in my opinion, misused the phrase.
>
> This might be a quantum leap in our understanding of "Cook's tour".

Could *Quantum Leap* be regarded as a Cook's Tour of the Universe?
Snidely
2018-05-17 06:34:37 UTC
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Peter T. Daniels scribbled something on Monday the 5/14/2018:
> On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 4:55:22 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 14-May-18 19:49, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On 14 May 2018 18:17:28 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 19:36:45 UTC, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
>>>> <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It
>>>>>>> was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995. In the entry of "Cook's
>>>>>>> tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean
>>>>>>> a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [
>>>>>>> collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and
>>>>>>> its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2) Kindly
>>>>>>> shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is
>>>>>>> recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful
>>>>>>> if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
>>>>>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase in
>>>>>> my view.
>>>>>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of the
>>>>>> highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>>>>>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>>>>>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>>>>>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>>>>> The OED has:
>>>>> Cook's tour, n.
>>>>> Etymology: < the name of Thomas Cook (1808 92), travel agent.
>>>>> A tour, esp. one in which many places are viewed; any journey of
>>>>> wide extent; also fig.
>>>> That's what I've always understood it to mean.
>>>> I'm inclined to accept the OED as somewhat more authoritative than
>>>> "A second-hand idiom reference book ... published by a Hong Kong
>>>> publisher".
>>> So am I, but I also understand that some phrases are used differently
>>> from the Authentic Definition. For example, if you visit someone's
>>> new house for the first time they may offer you a "Cook's tour" of the
>>> house.
>>> There's no journey involved, but a tour is offered. What will be
>>> shown on the tour are the highlights of the house. The host has not,
>>> in my opinion, misused the phrase.
>>
>> This might be a quantum leap in our understanding of "Cook's tour".
>
> Could *Quantum Leap* be regarded as a Cook's Tour of the Universe?

I tend to think, as a symptom of misdirection, of "Time Tunnel", which
may say something about my attitude when the respective shows debuted.

What was the more recent one (on the Fox Network?) about jumping (which
ISTR as being more of a phase shifting among parallel universes)?

/dps "inner clauses Я us"

--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15
RH Draney
2018-05-17 09:15:55 UTC
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On 5/16/2018 11:34 PM, Snidely wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels  scribbled something on Monday the 5/14/2018:
>>
>> Could *Quantum Leap* be regarded as a Cook's Tour of the Universe?
>
> I tend to think, as a symptom of misdirection, of "Time Tunnel", which
> may say something about my attitude when the respective shows debuted.
>
> What was the more recent one (on the Fox Network?) about jumping (which
> ISTR as being more of a phase shifting among parallel universes)?

"Sliders"?...r
Snidely
2018-05-19 07:31:16 UTC
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RH Draney pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
> On 5/16/2018 11:34 PM, Snidely wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels  scribbled something on Monday the 5/14/2018:
>>>
>>> Could *Quantum Leap* be regarded as a Cook's Tour of the Universe?
>>
>> I tend to think, as a symptom of misdirection, of "Time Tunnel", which may
>> say something about my attitude when the respective shows debuted.
>>
>> What was the more recent one (on the Fox Network?) about jumping (which
>> ISTR as being more of a phase shifting among parallel universes)?
>
> "Sliders"?...r

I think that's it. One of the leads was a lead in one other show I was
aware of, around the same time. IMDB tells me that would be Jerry
O'Connell, but what the other show was .... Maybe /Jerry Maguire/,
which I never saw except for fragments. Should I have it on my
must-see list, after /Despicable Me/?

/dps

--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>
RH Draney
2018-05-19 08:15:28 UTC
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On 5/19/2018 12:31 AM, Snidely wrote:
> RH Draney pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
>> On 5/16/2018 11:34 PM, Snidely wrote:
>>>
>>> What was the more recent one (on the Fox Network?) about jumping
>>> (which ISTR as being more of a phase shifting among parallel universes)?
>>
>> "Sliders"?...r
>
> I think that's it.  One of the leads was a lead in one other show I was
> aware of, around the same time.  IMDB tells me that would be Jerry
> O'Connell, but what the other show was ....   Maybe /Jerry Maguire/,
> which I never saw except for fragments.  Should I have it on my must-see
> list, after /Despicable Me/?

The other TV show closest in time to "Sliders" in which he was a cast
regular was "Crossing Jordan"....r
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-17 11:51:56 UTC
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On Thursday, May 17, 2018 at 2:34:42 AM UTC-4, Snidely wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels scribbled something on Monday the 5/14/2018:
> > On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 4:55:22 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> >> On 14-May-18 19:49, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>> On 14 May 2018 18:17:28 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 19:36:45 UTC, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
> >>>> <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
> >>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
> >>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>>>>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It
> >>>>>>> was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995. In the entry of "Cook's
> >>>>>>> tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean
> >>>>>>> a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [
> >>>>>>> collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and
> >>>>>>> its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2) Kindly
> >>>>>>> shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is
> >>>>>>> recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful
> >>>>>>> if you could suggest alternative expressions.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
> >>>>>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase in
> >>>>>> my view.
> >>>>>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of the
> >>>>>> highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
> >>>>>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
> >>>>>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
> >>>>>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
> >>>>> The OED has:
> >>>>> Cook's tour, n.
> >>>>> Etymology: < the name of Thomas Cook (1808 92), travel agent.
> >>>>> A tour, esp. one in which many places are viewed; any journey of
> >>>>> wide extent; also fig.
> >>>> That's what I've always understood it to mean.
> >>>> I'm inclined to accept the OED as somewhat more authoritative than
> >>>> "A second-hand idiom reference book ... published by a Hong Kong
> >>>> publisher".
> >>> So am I, but I also understand that some phrases are used differently
> >>> from the Authentic Definition. For example, if you visit someone's
> >>> new house for the first time they may offer you a "Cook's tour" of the
> >>> house.
> >>> There's no journey involved, but a tour is offered. What will be
> >>> shown on the tour are the highlights of the house. The host has not,
> >>> in my opinion, misused the phrase.
> >>
> >> This might be a quantum leap in our understanding of "Cook's tour".
> >
> > Could *Quantum Leap* be regarded as a Cook's Tour of the Universe?
>
> I tend to think, as a symptom of misdirection, of "Time Tunnel", which
> may say something about my attitude when the respective shows debuted.
>
> What was the more recent one (on the Fox Network?) about jumping (which
> ISTR as being more of a phase shifting among parallel universes)?
>
> /dps "inner clauses Я us"

Fox seems currently to be (or to just have been -- the last one was two
hours) burning off the backlog of episodes of a series, I think it was
the one that started with trying to stop the burning of the Hindenburg,
which was too ridiculous to watch another episode, and the one last week
was about Rosa Parks IIR the description C. ("Timeless"?)
John Varela
2018-05-15 00:14:24 UTC
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On Mon, 14 May 2018 18:49:40 UTC, Tony Cooper
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 14 May 2018 18:17:28 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 12 May 2018 19:36:45 UTC, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
> ><***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
> >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
> >> ><***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>Ladies and Gentlemen,
> >> >>
> >> >>A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
> >> >>
> >> >>In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
> >> >>
> >> >>Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
> >> >not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase in
> >> >my view.
> >> >
> >> >I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of the
> >> >highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
> >> >covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
> >> >
> >> >I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
> >> >necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
> >> >
> >> The OED has:
> >>
> >> Cook's tour, n.
> >> Etymology: < the name of Thomas Cook (180892), travel agent.
> >>
> >> A tour, esp. one in which many places are viewed; any journey of
> >> wide extent; also fig.
> >
> >That's what I've always understood it to mean.
> >
> >I'm inclined to accept the OED as somewhat more authoritative than
> >"A second-hand idiom reference book ... published by a Hong Kong
> >publisher".
>
> So am I, but I also understand that some phrases are used differently
> from the Authentic Definition. For example, if you visit someone's
> new house for the first time they may offer you a "Cook's tour" of the
> house.
>
> There's no journey involved, but a tour is offered. What will be
> shown on the tour are the highlights of the house. The host has not,
> in my opinion, misused the phrase.

The OED says "also fig." A classical Cook's tour hits many places
and, because they are many, necessarily not staying long at any of
them. Similarly, a figurative Cook's tour of a new house would
comprenensively pass through all or most of the rooms, but not
linger long in any of them.

--
John Varela
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-15 13:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-14 20:17:28 +0200, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net> said:

[ ... ]

> I'm inclined to accept the OED as somewhat more authoritative than
> "A second-hand idiom reference book ... published by a Hong Kong
> publisher".

I agree, but I note that books in English published in Hong Kong can be
OK. I have one by T. R. C. Boyde called "Foundation Stones of
Biochemistry" published by Voile et Aviron, Hong Kong 1980. It's quite
good; useful, anyway. However, as far as I can determine it's the only
book ever produced by Voile et Aviron, so it was probably
self-published.


--
athel
HVS
2018-05-12 19:45:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:


> >Ladies and Gentlemen,
> >
> >A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession
recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
> >
> >In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said
that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
declining after 1982. (*2)
> >
> >Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned
sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be
most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
> >


> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase
in
> my view.


> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of
the
> highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.


> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.


> I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.

"Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's similar.
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 20:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 20:45:22 +0100, HVS
<***@REMOVE-THISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
><***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> >Ladies and Gentlemen,
>> >
>> >A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession
>recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>> >
>> >In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
>Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
>attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said
>that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
>declining after 1982. (*2)
>> >
>> >Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned
>sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be
>most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>> >
>
>
>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase
>in
>> my view.
>
>
>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of
>the
>> highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>
>
>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>
>
>> I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.
>
>"Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's similar.

If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-13 06:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:

> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium

Friendly correction: If it's Tuesday, *this* must be Belgium.

bill, Flemish or Walloon?
occam
2018-05-17 14:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 13/05/2018 08:45, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
>
> Friendly correction: If it's Tuesday, *this* must be Belgium.
>
> bill, Flemish or Walloon?
>

Shouldn't that be "bill, Flemish or Dutch?". Wallonia is more 'de' than
'van' country.
J. J. Lodder
2018-05-17 19:51:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
occam <***@invalid.nix> wrote:

> On 13/05/2018 08:45, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >
> >> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
> >
> > Friendly correction: If it's Tuesday, *this* must be Belgium.
> >
> > bill, Flemish or Walloon?
> >
>
> Shouldn't that be "bill, Flemish or Dutch?". Wallonia is more 'de' than
> 'van' country.

You obviously haven't been to Belgium.
Many of the Belgians with Van... names are Francophone,
and have Flemish as a second language,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2018-05-18 02:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 18/05/18 05:51, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> occam <***@invalid.nix> wrote:
>
>> On 13/05/2018 08:45, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
>>>
>>> Friendly correction: If it's Tuesday, *this* must be Belgium.
>>>
>>> bill, Flemish or Walloon?
>>>
>>
>> Shouldn't that be "bill, Flemish or Dutch?". Wallonia is more 'de'
>> than 'van' country.
>
> You obviously haven't been to Belgium. Many of the Belgians with
> Van... names are Francophone, and have Flemish as a second
> language,

My ex-parents-in-law both had surnames that were very clearly Flemish, but
they were francophone. (Although, living in Antwerp, they were also
completely fluent in Dutch.) Because my xfil spent years tracking down
his ancestors, I know the story behind this. They earliest ancestors he
could track were indeed Flemish, but they moved from a small village
into Antwerp and set up a thriving business. Once they became
prosperous, they switched to speaking French.

The remnants of this can still be seen in Antwerp. Only 5% of the
population is French-speaking, but that 5% lives in the wealthier parts
of the city. Many of the families were originally Flemish, but they
adopted French once they moved up in the world.

This is what's behind the stress between the two main language groups of
Belgium. Historically, the upper classes spoke French and the common
people spoke Flemish. The linguistic "war" is really a class struggle.

Wallony is a different case. Linguistically it's part of France, but the
national borders moved over time. It is possible that the Walloons will,
like the Irish Protestants, eventually feel that they are under threat
from the Dutch-speaking majority, but originally it was the French
speakers who had the upper hand.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
occam
2018-05-18 08:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 18/05/2018 04:23, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 18/05/18 05:51, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> occam <***@invalid.nix> wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/05/2018 08:45, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
>>>>
>>>> Friendly correction: If it's Tuesday, *this* must be Belgium.
>>>>
>>>> bill, Flemish or Walloon?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Shouldn't that be "bill, Flemish or Dutch?". Wallonia is more 'de'
>>>  than 'van' country.
>>
>> You obviously haven't been to Belgium. Many of the Belgians with
>> Van...  names are Francophone, and have Flemish as a second
>> language,
>
> My ex-parents-in-law both had surnames that were very clearly Flemish, but
> they were francophone. (Although, living in Antwerp, they were also
> completely fluent in Dutch.) Because my xfil spent years tracking down
> his ancestors, I know the story behind this. They earliest ancestors he
> could track were indeed Flemish, but they moved from a small village
> into Antwerp and set up a thriving business. Once they became
> prosperous, they switched to speaking French.

>
> The remnants of this can still be seen in Antwerp. Only 5% of the
> population is French-speaking, but that 5% lives in the wealthier parts
> of the city. Many of the families were originally Flemish, but they
> adopted French once they moved up in the world.

>
> This is what's behind the stress between the two main language groups of
> Belgium. Historically, the upper classes spoke French and the common
> people spoke Flemish. The linguistic "war" is really a class struggle.

This is the same experience in Luxembourg. The prosperous, educated
classes are francophones, because historically the German-speaking
burgers tried to distance themselves from that language whenever
possible - for reasons of class and/or history. Sending their children
to be educated in France was one way of doing this. I'm not sure if
changing of surnames was also part of it?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-19 11:43:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-18 02:23:42 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>> [ … ]
>>
>
> This is what's behind the stress between the two main language groups of
> Belgium. Historically, the upper classes spoke French and the common
> people spoke Flemish. The linguistic "war" is really a class struggle.
>
> Wallony is a different case. Linguistically it's part of France, but the
> national borders moved over time. It is possible that the Walloons will,
> like the Irish Protestants, eventually feel that they are under threat
> from the Dutch-speaking majority, but originally it was the French
> speakers who had the upper hand.

That's something to consider to understand the current problems in
Catalonia. The local language in Valencia is called Valencian, but it's
very similar to Catalan and they are mutually intelligible. When we
were in Valencia a couple of years ago I asked people if the Comunitat
Valenciana would want to join an independent Catalonia. Absolutely not,
came the answer, so I asked why not. I was told that in Catalonia is
the wealthier people who speak Catalan and are anxious to become the
rulers again, whereas in Valencia it's the workers who speak Valencian
whereas the wealthier people speak Castilian and don't in the least
want to be ruled from Barcelona.

Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the screens of
your televisions watching the wedding of the century. Our television
is switched on, because the other resident of this apartment is
watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the screen.


--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-19 16:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 19 May 2018 13:43:14 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2018-05-18 02:23:42 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>> [ … ]
>>>
>>
>> This is what's behind the stress between the two main language groups of
>> Belgium. Historically, the upper classes spoke French and the common
>> people spoke Flemish. The linguistic "war" is really a class struggle.
>>
>> Wallony is a different case. Linguistically it's part of France, but the
>> national borders moved over time. It is possible that the Walloons will,
>> like the Irish Protestants, eventually feel that they are under threat
>> from the Dutch-speaking majority, but originally it was the French
>> speakers who had the upper hand.
>
>That's something to consider to understand the current problems in
>Catalonia. The local language in Valencia is called Valencian, but it's
>very similar to Catalan and they are mutually intelligible. When we
>were in Valencia a couple of years ago I asked people if the Comunitat
>Valenciana would want to join an independent Catalonia. Absolutely not,
>came the answer, so I asked why not. I was told that in Catalonia is
>the wealthier people who speak Catalan and are anxious to become the
>rulers again, whereas in Valencia it's the workers who speak Valencian
>whereas the wealthier people speak Castilian and don't in the least
>want to be ruled from Barcelona.
>
>Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the screens of
>your televisions watching the wedding of the century. Our television
>is switched on, because the other resident of this apartment is
>watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the screen.

I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
recorders.

Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-19 16:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-19 16:17:46 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:

> On Sat, 19 May 2018 13:43:14 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>>
>> [ … ]

>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the screens
>> of>your televisions watching the wedding of the century. Our
>> television>is switched on, because the other resident of this apartment
>> is>watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the screen.
>
> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
> recorders.
>
> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.

Only four (OK, I know you said "at least")? At the height of the
excitement I expect we had about ten. It's been over now for several
hours, but a quick zap through the first 25 channels still revealed
three (France 2, BFM TV and C News) that are currently talking either
about the wedding or things suggested by it, like "L'héritage de
Diana", at present on France 2.

I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was staying
with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in Wales. They
spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued to the small
black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day would be
better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr Wyddfa (or
Snowdon, if you prefer).


--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-19 20:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 19 May 2018 18:52:54 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2018-05-19 16:17:46 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>
>> On Sat, 19 May 2018 13:43:14 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> [ … ]
>
>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the screens
>>> of>your televisions watching the wedding of the century. Our
>>> television>is switched on, because the other resident of this apartment
>>> is>watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the screen.
>>
>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>> recorders.
>>
>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
>
>Only four (OK, I know you said "at least")?

Those four were free-to-air, non-subscription, TV services. There was
also continuous coverage on a BBC radio channel.

The event has, of course, been covered on news broadcasts before during
and since as well as the live coverage. There has been no shortage of
documentaries in the lead up to it.

I'm sure we haven't seen the last of it.

>At the height of the
>excitement I expect we had about ten. It's been over now for several
>hours, but a quick zap through the first 25 channels still revealed
>three (France 2, BFM TV and C News) that are currently talking either
>about the wedding or things suggested by it, like "L'héritage de
>Diana", at present on France 2.
>
>I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was staying
>with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in Wales. They
>spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued to the small
>black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day would be
>better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr Wyddfa (or
>Snowdon, if you prefer).

Well done! I've walked up Yr Wyddfa a couple of times, decades ago. I
also went up it in the train, with family members who would have been
unable to walk up it.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-20 05:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-19 20:38:56 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:

> On Sat, 19 May 2018 18:52:54 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> [ ... ]

>> I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was
>> staying>with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in
>> Wales. They>spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued to
>> the small>black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day
>> would be>better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr
>> Wyddfa (or>Snowdon, if you prefer).
>
> Well done! I've walked up Yr Wyddfa a couple of times, decades ago. I
> also went up it in the train, with family members who would have been
> unable to walk up it.

I couldn't do it now.

--
athel
Sam Plusnet
2018-05-20 00:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 19-May-18 17:52, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was staying
> with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in Wales. They
> spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued to the small
> black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day would be
> better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr Wyddfa (or
> Snowdon, if you prefer).

Which caused me to wonder if Lord Snowdon attended that marriage.

He and Charlie's Aunt had divorced a few years earlier, so he may not
have done.

--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-20 02:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 19, 2018 at 8:53:08 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 19-May-18 17:52, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> > I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was staying
> > with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in Wales. They
> > spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued to the small
> > black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day would be
> > better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr Wyddfa (or
> > Snowdon, if you prefer).
>
> Which caused me to wonder if Lord Snowdon attended that marriage.
>
> He and Charlie's Aunt had divorced a few years earlier, so he may not
> have done.

I don't quite remember who Snowdon used to be, but CBS pointed out that
Sarah Ferguson was there. She remains a popular celebrity in the US.
Tony Cooper
2018-05-20 03:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 19 May 2018 19:54:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<***@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 19, 2018 at 8:53:08 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 19-May-18 17:52, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> > I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was staying
>> > with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in Wales. They
>> > spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued to the small
>> > black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day would be
>> > better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr Wyddfa (or
>> > Snowdon, if you prefer).
>>
>> Which caused me to wonder if Lord Snowdon attended that marriage.
>>
>> He and Charlie's Aunt had divorced a few years earlier, so he may not
>> have done.
>
>I don't quite remember who Snowdon used to be, but CBS pointed out that
>Sarah Ferguson was there. She remains a popular celebrity in the US.

Antony Armstrong-Jones, who married Princess Margaret, was a
professional photographer. He did some quite good stuff photographing
celebrities mostly from the theatrical and fashion worlds. Also
official portraits of QEII and DofE. There are several photographs of
Diana in his portfolio. You might compare him as the UK's Richard
Avedon or Annie Leibovitz.

He was given the titles Earl of Snowdon and Viscount Linley after his
marriage to Margaret. Later, long after the divorce, he became a
life peer as Baron Armstrong-Jones. He died in 2017.

His son, Viscount Linley, and his daughter, Lady Sarah
Armstrong-Jones, attended Charles and Diana's wedding, but he doesn't
seem to have been on the guest list.

In the PBS production, "The Crown", Armstrong-Jones (Matthew Goode)
was one of the more interesting characters. His photograph of
Margaret was one of the things that drew her to him. He had captured
her in a way that most Royals weren't usually presented on film.






--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Janet
2018-05-20 11:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <a9c438e1-107e-4e5c-a00a-***@googlegroups.com>,
***@verizon.net says...
>
> On Saturday, May 19, 2018 at 8:53:08 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> > On 19-May-18 17:52, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> > > I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was staying
> > > with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in Wales. They
> > > spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued to the small
> > > black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day would be
> > > better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr Wyddfa (or
> > > Snowdon, if you prefer).
> >
> > Which caused me to wonder if Lord Snowdon attended that marriage.
> >
> > He and Charlie's Aunt had divorced a few years earlier, so he may not
> > have done.
>
> I don't quite remember who Snowdon used to be,

You might remember some of his iconic portraits, he was a famous
photographer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4120958/Lord-Snowdon-s-
sublime-royal-family-album.html

Janet.
Janet
2018-05-20 11:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@brightview.co.uk>,
***@home.com says...
>
> On 19-May-18 17:52, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >
> > I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was staying
> > with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in Wales. They
> > spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued to the small
> > black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day would be
> > better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr Wyddfa (or
> > Snowdon, if you prefer).
>
> Which caused me to wonder if Lord Snowdon attended that marriage.
>
> He and Charlie's Aunt had divorced a few years earlier, so he may not
> have done.

Their daughter Sarah (Charles cousin) was Diana's chief bridesmaid,
Lord Snowdon was a guest with his second wife.

Janet
Lewis
2018-05-20 04:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2018-05-19 16:17:46 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:

>> On Sat, 19 May 2018 13:43:14 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> [ … ]

>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the screens
>>> of>your televisions watching the wedding of the century. Our
>>> television>is switched on, because the other resident of this apartment
>>> is>watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the screen.
>>
>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>> recorders.
>>
>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.

> Only four (OK, I know you said "at least")? At the height of the
> excitement I expect we had about ten. It's been over now for several
> hours, but a quick zap through the first 25 channels still revealed
> three (France 2, BFM TV and C News) that are currently talking either
> about the wedding or things suggested by it, like "L'héritage de
> Diana", at present on France 2.

> I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss.

Which one? I can think of several.

> I was staying with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife
> in Wales. They spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued
> to the small black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day
> would be better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr
> Wyddfa (or Snowdon, if you prefer).

That doesn't narrow it down. 1956?

--
'I don't see why everyone depends on me. I'm not dependable. Even I
don't depend on me, and I'm me.'
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-20 06:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-20 04:42:49 +0000, Lewis said:

> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2018-05-19 16:17:46 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>
>>> On Sat, 19 May 2018 13:43:14 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ … ]
>
>>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the screens
>>>> of>your televisions watching the wedding of the century. Our
>>>> television>is switched on, because the other resident of this apartment
>>>> is>watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the screen.
>>>
>>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>>> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>>> recorders.
>>>
>>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>>> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
>
>> Only four (OK, I know you said "at least")? At the height of the
>> excitement I expect we had about ten. It's been over now for several
>> hours, but a quick zap through the first 25 channels still revealed
>> three (France 2, BFM TV and C News) that are currently talking either
>> about the wedding or things suggested by it, like "L'héritage de
>> Diana", at present on France 2.
>
>> I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss.
>
> Which one? I can think of several.

Every century has several weddings of the century. I thought that "29th
July 1981" might be a sufficient clue. Were there other weddings of the
century that day?
>
>> I was staying with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife
>> in Wales. They spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued
>> to the small black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day
>> would be better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr
>> Wyddfa (or Snowdon, if you prefer).
>
> That doesn't narrow it down. 1956?


--
athel
Lewis
2018-05-20 04:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2018-05-19 16:17:46 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:

>> On Sat, 19 May 2018 13:43:14 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> [ … ]

>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the screens
>>> of>your televisions watching the wedding of the century. Our
>>> television>is switched on, because the other resident of this apartment
>>> is>watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the screen.
>>
>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>> recorders.
>>
>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.

> Only four (OK, I know you said "at least")? At the height of the
> excitement I expect we had about ten. It's been over now for several
> hours, but a quick zap through the first 25 channels still revealed
> three (France 2, BFM TV and C News) that are currently talking either
> about the wedding or things suggested by it, like "L'héritage de
> Diana", at present on France 2.

> I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was staying
> with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in Wales. They
> spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued to the small
> black and white screen in our room, but I thought the day would be
> better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking up) yr Wyddfa (or
> Snowdon, if you prefer).

Oh, sorry, I didn't read properly. I'm not sure that 1981 beats out
1956 in anyway.


1967 was another big wedding, at least in terms of interest, but that
one was short. Then of course, 1969 and John and Yoko, but certainly not
to the level of 1956.

I'm probably forgetting a big important one earlier in the 20th century
, but one that surpasses the glam, fame, interest, and imagination of
Grace Kelly marrying Prince Rupert (or whatever his name was, something
with and R)? I doubt it.

The only thing that comes to mind at all is the last time a British royal
married a divorced woman, but I'd still put 1956 ahead of that by a
mile.

Friend of mine in the UK said about this years big royal wedding,
"Prince Charles will be standing in for the bride's father who was
unable to attend, and then will be standing in for the groom's father"
which was pretty funny, I thought.

--
I presume you're mortal, and may err.
Peter Moylan
2018-05-20 11:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 20/05/18 14:57, Lewis wrote:
> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>> I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was
>> staying with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in
>> Wales. They spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued
>> to the small black and white screen in our room, but I thought the
>> day would be better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking
>> up) yr Wyddfa (or Snowdon, if you prefer).
>
> Oh, sorry, I didn't read properly. I'm not sure that 1981 beats out
> 1956 in anyway.

I had trouble remembering whether anything special happened in 1956, so
for me it beats out 1956 in severalways.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-20 11:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-20 11:04:27 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 20/05/18 14:57, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>>> I gave the wedding of the 20th century a complete miss. I was
>>> staying with my daughters and then, but shortly to be ex-, wife in
>>> Wales. They spent the whole of 29th July 1981 with their eyes glued
>>> to the small black and white screen in our room, but I thought the
>>> day would be better spent climbing (or, more accurately, walking
>>> up) yr Wyddfa (or Snowdon, if you prefer).
>>
>> Oh, sorry, I didn't read properly. I'm not sure that 1981 beats out
>> 1956 in anyway.
>
> I had trouble remembering whether anything special happened in 1956,

Suez crisis?
Hungarian revolution?

> so
> for me it beats out 1956 in severalways.


--
athel
Peter Moylan
2018-05-20 11:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 20/05/18 21:13, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-20 11:04:27 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

>> I had trouble remembering whether anything special happened in
>> 1956,
>
> Suez crisis? Hungarian revolution?

Well, I suppose it's a feature of the way my mind works, or doesn't
work. I remember that many historical events happened, but only rarely
can I put a date to them.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2018-05-19 23:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
>>> screen.
> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
> recorders.
>
> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.

Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
preacher in her church.

I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
forgetting his name.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Ross
2018-05-20 00:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 11:48:07 AM UTC+12, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
> >>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
> >>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
> >>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
> >>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
> >>> screen.
> > I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
> > watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
> > recorders.
> >
> > Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
> > coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
>
> Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
> the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
> my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
> Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
> preacher in her church.

Not really fundamentalist. "TV-style" was my first reaction, as he
went on and on. Certainly a bit discordant with the prevailing C of E manner.
I got so fed up with his long-windedness that I went off to do something
else, and ended up missing "Stand By Me".

>
> I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
> is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
> forgetting his name.
>
> --
> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
> Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mark Brader
2018-05-20 00:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Peter Moylan:
> I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
> is the one that doesn't look like his father, but...

But just imagine if it was Hercule Poirot he'd decided to marry.
--
Mark Brader | "... you're a detective, you like mysteries."
Toronto | "I hate mysteries. What I like are *solutions*."
***@vex.net | --Barbara Paul, "The Apostrophe Thief"
Tony Cooper
2018-05-20 01:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 20 May 2018 09:48:03 +1000, Peter Moylan
<***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
>>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
>>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
>>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
>>>> screen.
>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>> recorders.
>>
>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
>
>Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
>the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
>my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
>Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
>preacher in her church.
>
>I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
>is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
>forgetting his name.

I haven't paid any attention to the hoop-la, but I do understand that
some people find it interesting. Given the choice between watching
anything on that subject, a dancing competition, and a cooking show,
and I'd take a nap.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ross
2018-05-20 01:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 1:11:17 PM UTC+12, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2018 09:48:03 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> >
> >>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
> >>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
> >>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
> >>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
> >>>> screen.
> >> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
> >> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
> >> recorders.
> >>
> >> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
> >> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
> >
> >Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
> >the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
> >my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
> >Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
> >preacher in her church.
> >
> >I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
> >is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
> >forgetting his name.
>
> I haven't paid any attention to the hoop-la, but I do understand that
> some people find it interesting. Given the choice between watching
> anything on that subject, a dancing competition, and a cooking show,
> and I'd take a nap.
>
> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Well, the British do hoop-la very well. The costumes were excellent,
the venue awesome, the kids were cute (better behaved than the horses),
and in addition to gospel, pop and light classical selections, and a
couple of sturdy hymns, we got to hear a little of the special music
one would hope to hear in such a setting: the resident choir performing
a nice motet, the particulars of which I could not ascertain (it was right
after the reading from the Song of Songs by Di's sister); and right near the beginning Handel's "Eternal source of light divine", which is really beautiful.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-20 08:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 19 May 2018 18:37:14 -0700 (PDT), Ross <***@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 1:11:17 PM UTC+12, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 May 2018 09:48:03 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> >
>> >>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
>> >>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
>> >>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
>> >>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
>> >>>> screen.
>> >> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>> >> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>> >> recorders.
>> >>
>> >> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>> >> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
>> >
>> >Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
>> >the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
>> >my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
>> >Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
>> >preacher in her church.
>> >
>> >I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
>> >is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
>> >forgetting his name.
>>
>> I haven't paid any attention to the hoop-la, but I do understand that
>> some people find it interesting. Given the choice between watching
>> anything on that subject, a dancing competition, and a cooking show,
>> and I'd take a nap.
>>
>> --
>> Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
>
>Well, the British do hoop-la very well. The costumes were excellent,
>the venue awesome, the kids were cute (better behaved than the horses),
>and in addition to gospel, pop and light classical selections, and a
>couple of sturdy hymns, we got to hear a little of the special music
>one would hope to hear in such a setting: the resident choir performing
>a nice motet, the particulars of which I could not ascertain (it was right
>after the reading from the Song of Songs by Di's sister); and right near the beginning Handel's "Eternal source of light divine", which is really beautiful.

All remain seated while the Choir of St George’s Chapel sing the

MOTET
If ye love me
IF ye love me,
keep my commandments,
and I will pray the Father,
and he shall give you another comforter,
that he may ‘bide with you forever,
e’en the spirit of truth.

Thomas Tallis (1505–85)

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ross
2018-05-20 10:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 8:29:27 PM UTC+12, PeterWD wrote:
> On Sat, 19 May 2018 18:37:14 -0700 (PDT), Ross <***@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 1:11:17 PM UTC+12, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Sun, 20 May 2018 09:48:03 +1000, Peter Moylan
> >> <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
> >> >>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
> >> >>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
> >> >>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
> >> >>>> screen.
> >> >> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
> >> >> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
> >> >> recorders.
> >> >>
> >> >> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
> >> >> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
> >> >
> >> >Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
> >> >the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
> >> >my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
> >> >Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
> >> >preacher in her church.
> >> >
> >> >I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
> >> >is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
> >> >forgetting his name.
> >>
> >> I haven't paid any attention to the hoop-la, but I do understand that
> >> some people find it interesting. Given the choice between watching
> >> anything on that subject, a dancing competition, and a cooking show,
> >> and I'd take a nap.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
> >
> >Well, the British do hoop-la very well. The costumes were excellent,
> >the venue awesome, the kids were cute (better behaved than the horses),
> >and in addition to gospel, pop and light classical selections, and a
> >couple of sturdy hymns, we got to hear a little of the special music
> >one would hope to hear in such a setting: the resident choir performing
> >a nice motet, the particulars of which I could not ascertain (it was right
> >after the reading from the Song of Songs by Di's sister); and right near the beginning Handel's "Eternal source of light divine", which is really beautiful.
>
> All remain seated while the Choir of St George’s Chapel sing the
>
> MOTET
> If ye love me
> IF ye love me,
> keep my commandments,
> and I will pray the Father,
> and he shall give you another comforter,
> that he may ‘bide with you forever,
> e’en the spirit of truth.
>
> Thomas Tallis (1505–85)
>
> --
> Peter Duncanson, UK
> (in alt.usage.english)

Thanks! The Order of Service I managed to download had details
for all the other music, but just said "the motet" at this point.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-20 10:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 20 May 2018 03:26:45 -0700 (PDT), Ross <***@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 8:29:27 PM UTC+12, PeterWD wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 May 2018 18:37:14 -0700 (PDT), Ross <***@ihug.co.nz>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 1:11:17 PM UTC+12, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 20 May 2018 09:48:03 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> >> <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
>> >> >>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
>> >> >>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
>> >> >>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
>> >> >>>> screen.
>> >> >> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>> >> >> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>> >> >> recorders.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>> >> >> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
>> >> >
>> >> >Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
>> >> >the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
>> >> >my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
>> >> >Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
>> >> >preacher in her church.
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
>> >> >is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
>> >> >forgetting his name.
>> >>
>> >> I haven't paid any attention to the hoop-la, but I do understand that
>> >> some people find it interesting. Given the choice between watching
>> >> anything on that subject, a dancing competition, and a cooking show,
>> >> and I'd take a nap.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
>> >
>> >Well, the British do hoop-la very well. The costumes were excellent,
>> >the venue awesome, the kids were cute (better behaved than the horses),
>> >and in addition to gospel, pop and light classical selections, and a
>> >couple of sturdy hymns, we got to hear a little of the special music
>> >one would hope to hear in such a setting: the resident choir performing
>> >a nice motet, the particulars of which I could not ascertain (it was right
>> >after the reading from the Song of Songs by Di's sister); and right near the beginning Handel's "Eternal source of light divine", which is really beautiful.
>>
>> All remain seated while the Choir of St George’s Chapel sing the
>>
>> MOTET
>> If ye love me
>> IF ye love me,
>> keep my commandments,
>> and I will pray the Father,
>> and he shall give you another comforter,
>> that he may ‘bide with you forever,
>> e’en the spirit of truth.
>>
>> Thomas Tallis (1505–85)
>>
>> --
>> Peter Duncanson, UK
>> (in alt.usage.english)
>
>Thanks! The Order of Service I managed to download had details
>for all the other music, but just said "the motet" at this point.

The Order of Service is available here:
https://www.royal.uk/order-service-prince-harry-and-ms-meghan-markles-wedding

The Official Order of Service for the Wedding of Prince Harry and
Ms. Meghan Markle has been made available for the public to download
for free from 0001hrs Saturday 19th May.

The Order of Service includes full details about the processions,
music, hymns, prayers and readings. The Service is from Common
Worship.

Like any couple getting married, Prince Harry and Ms. Markle have
taken a great deal of care in selecting all elements for their
service. This has been a collaborative effort led by Prince Harry
and Ms. Markle. They have also sought the advice of The Prince of
Wales for the orchestral music before the Service begins.

Copies of the Order of Service will be given to all those attending
Windsor Castle.

https://www.royal.uk/sites/default/files/media/order_of_service.pdf

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-20 08:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 19 May 2018 18:37:14 -0700 (PDT), Ross <***@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 1:11:17 PM UTC+12, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 May 2018 09:48:03 +1000, Peter Moylan
>> <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> >
>> >>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
>> >>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
>> >>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
>> >>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
>> >>>> screen.
>> >> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>> >> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>> >> recorders.
>> >>
>> >> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>> >> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
>> >
>> >Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
>> >the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
>> >my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
>> >Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
>> >preacher in her church.
>> >
>> >I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
>> >is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
>> >forgetting his name.
>>
>> I haven't paid any attention to the hoop-la, but I do understand that
>> some people find it interesting. Given the choice between watching
>> anything on that subject, a dancing competition, and a cooking show,
>> and I'd take a nap.
>>
>> --
>> Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
>
>Well, the British do hoop-la very well. The costumes were excellent,
>the venue awesome, the kids were cute (better behaved than the horses),
>and in addition to gospel, pop and light classical selections, and a
>couple of sturdy hymns, we got to hear a little of the special music
>one would hope to hear in such a setting: the resident choir performing
>a nice motet, the particulars of which I could not ascertain (it was right
>after the reading from the Song of Songs by Di's sister); and right near the beginning Handel's "Eternal source of light divine", which is really beautiful.

The motet was immeditely before the address by Michael Curry.

Curry, hot by name, hot-gospelling by nature.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Cheryl
2018-05-20 09:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-19 10:41 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2018 09:48:03 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>
>>>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
>>>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
>>>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
>>>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
>>>>> screen.
>>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>>> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>>> recorders.
>>>
>>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>>> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
>>
>> Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
>> the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
>> my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
>> Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
>> preacher in her church.
>>
>> I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
>> is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
>> forgetting his name.
>
> I haven't paid any attention to the hoop-la, but I do understand that
> some people find it interesting. Given the choice between watching
> anything on that subject, a dancing competition, and a cooking show,
> and I'd take a nap.
>
The pageantry is always impressive, and rather like a dance performance,
although on a much larger scale both regarding time and space. All that
music, movement, colour, costume and demonstration of physical skills -
both remaining quiet and attentive and marching, processing, riding etc.
is quite something. I'm in awe of the fact that something so massive can
be organized so well, but perhaps not sufficiently in awe to watch all
of it.

--
Cheryl
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-20 02:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 19, 2018 at 7:48:07 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:

> Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
> the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
> my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
> Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
> preacher in her church.

Who just happens to be the Presiding Bishop of the Protestant Episcopal
Church in the United States.

Equivalent in Megan's renounced country to the Archbishop of Canterbury
(who baptized her two weeks ago, CBS said).

And, incidentally, an LGBTQ Rights activist.
Lewis
2018-05-20 04:58:38 UTC
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In message <pdqd3l$7on$***@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

>>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
>>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
>>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
>>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
>>>> screen.
>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>> recorders.
>>
>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.

> Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
> the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
> my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
> Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
> preacher in her church.

> I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
> is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
> forgetting his name.

He's named after that wizard in those books with the snake.

--
And, while it was regarded as pretty good evidence of criminality to be
living in a slum, for some reason owning a whole street of them merely
got you invited to the very best social occasions.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-05-20 10:26:20 UTC
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On Sun, 20 May 2018 04:58:38 GMT, Lewis
<***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <pdqd3l$7on$***@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>>>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
>>>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
>>>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
>>>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
>>>>> screen.
>>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>>> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>>> recorders.
>>>
>>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>>> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
>
>> Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me
>> given the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to
>> bed, but my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little
>> snippets, like the Queen looking shocked at having an American
>> fundamentalist-style preacher in her church.
>
>> I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss
>> Marple is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
>> forgetting his name.
>
> He's named after that wizard in those books with the snake.
>

I think the snake only managed 1 (obAUE one?) episode, before being
written out.



--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-20 10:48:57 UTC
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On Sunday, 20 May 2018 11:26:22 UTC+1, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2018 04:58:38 GMT, Lewis
> <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
> > In message <pdqd3l$7on$***@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> > <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> >
> >>>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
> >>>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
> >>>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
> >>>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
> >>>>> screen.
> >>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
> >>> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
> >>> recorders.
> >>>
> >>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
> >>> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
> >
> >> Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me
> >> given the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to
> >> bed, but my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little
> >> snippets, like the Queen looking shocked at having an American
> >> fundamentalist-style preacher in her church.
> >
> >> I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss
> >> Marple is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I still keep
> >> forgetting his name.
> >
> > He's named after that wizard in those books with the snake.
> >
>
> I think the snake only managed 1 (obAUE one?) episode, before being
> written out.
>

Depends what you mean by *the* snake. There are several, some of
which make appearances throughout the series notably Nagini, the
'pet' of Voldemort. Harry gets plenty of opportunities to benefit from
his ability as a parseltongue.
Peter Moylan
2018-05-20 11:13:17 UTC
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On 20/05/18 20:48, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> On Sunday, 20 May 2018 11:26:22 UTC+1, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 May 2018 04:58:38 GMT, Lewis
>> <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <pdqd3l$7on$***@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>> <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>>>> I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying
>>>> Miss Marple is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I
>>>> still keep forgetting his name.
>>>
>>> He's named after that wizard in those books with the snake.
>>
>> I think the snake only managed 1 (obAUE one?) episode, before
>> being written out.
>
> Depends what you mean by *the* snake. There are several, some of
> which make appearances throughout the series notably Nagini, the
> 'pet' of Voldemort. Harry gets plenty of opportunities to benefit
> from his ability as a parseltongue.

One of the most memorable parseltongue scenes happened when Harry wasn't
present. Ron and Hermione had to get through one of those
snake-controlled doors, and Ron used parseltongue to unlock the door. He
then turned to Hermione and said "Harry talks in his sleep. Have you
noticed?" She looked suitably offended.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
CDB
2018-05-20 11:59:42 UTC
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On 5/20/2018 6:48 AM, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
>> Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>> Peter Moylan <***@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

>>>>>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to
>>>>>>> the screens of your televisions watching the wedding of
>>>>>>> the century. Our television is switched on, because the
>>>>>>> other resident of this apartment is watching it, but my
>>>>>>> eyes are not glued to the screen.
>>>>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task
>>>>> of watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of
>>>>> video recorders.

>>>>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving
>>>>> continuous coverage, including one without voice-over
>>>>> commentary.

>>>> Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised
>>>> me given the strength of republican feeling in this country. I
>>>> went to bed, but my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught
>>>> little snippets, like the Queen looking shocked at having an
>>>> American fundamentalist-style preacher in her church.

>>>> I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying
>>>> Miss Marple is the one that doesn't look like his father, but I
>>>> still keep forgetting his name.

>>> He's named after that wizard in those books with the snake.

>> I think the snake only managed 1 (obAUE one?) episode, before
>> being written out.

> Depends what you mean by *the* snake. There are several, some of
> which make appearances throughout the series notably Nagini, the
> 'pet' of Voldemort. Harry gets plenty of opportunities to benefit
> from his ability as a parseltongue.

"Parselmouth", according to Wp, "parseltongue" being the language.

I didn't see an etymology, but I suppose it must be from a diminutive of
"part": divided, split, forked.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-20 05:20:59 UTC
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On 2018-05-19 23:48:03 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 20/05/18 02:17, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>>>> Sorry to drag you all away while your eyes are glued to the
>>>> screens of your televisions watching the wedding of the century.
>>>> Our television is switched on, because the other resident of this
>>>> apartment is watching it, but my eyes are not glued to the
>>>> screen.
>> I saw part of the proceedings live, but I delegated the task of
>> watching, and memorising, the proceedings to a number of video
>> recorders.
>>
>> Here in the UK there were at least four channels giving continuous
>> coverage, including one without voice-over commentary.
>
> Here it must have been six or seven channels, which surprised me given
> the strength of republican feeling in this country. I went to bed, but
> my wife insisted on watching it, so I caught little snippets, like the
> Queen looking shocked at having an American fundamentalist-style
> preacher in her church.

Yes, but he was an Episcopalian Bishop! I've attended plenty of
Episcopalian (Anglican) services in my time, but never previously heard
a sermon like that. Maybe one of our American participants can tell us
if all traditionalist churches in the USA are like that.
>
> I'm not a royal-watcher myself. I know that the one marrying Miss Marple
> is the one that doesn't look like his father,

Maybe there is a reason for that.

> but I still keep
> forgetting his name.


--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-19 11:26:27 UTC
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On 2018-05-17 19:51:17 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> occam <***@invalid.nix> wrote:
>
>> On 13/05/2018 08:45, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
>>>
>>> Friendly correction: If it's Tuesday, *this* must be Belgium.
>>>
>>> bill, Flemish or Walloon?
>>>
>>
>> Shouldn't that be "bill, Flemish or Dutch?". Wallonia is more 'de' than
>> 'van' country.
>
> You obviously haven't been to Belgium.
> Many of the Belgians with Van... names are Francophone,
> and have Flemish as a second language,

Yes, that corresponds to my limited experience: the only Belgian I know
with a Van name is as francophone as they come.



--
athel
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-18 00:00:46 UTC
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On Thursday, May 17, 2018 at 7:58:35 AM UTC-7, occam wrote:
> On 13/05/2018 08:45, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >
> >> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
> >
> > Friendly correction: If it's Tuesday, *this* must be Belgium.
> >
> > bill, Flemish or Walloon?
>
> Shouldn't that be "bill, Flemish or Dutch?". Wallonia is more 'de' than
> 'van' country.

Flemish *is* Dutch, essentially, so it can't be either/or. The borderlines
between Flemish- and French-speaking areas in Belgium are not that clearly
drawn, I gather, but if it's Tuesday and this must be Belgium,
those are the only choices.
occam
2018-05-18 08:02:07 UTC
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On 18/05/2018 02:00, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Thursday, May 17, 2018 at 7:58:35 AM UTC-7, occam wrote:
>> On 13/05/2018 08:45, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
>>>
>>> Friendly correction: If it's Tuesday, *this* must be Belgium.
>>>
>>> bill, Flemish or Walloon?
>>
>> Shouldn't that be "bill, Flemish or Dutch?". Wallonia is more 'de' than
>> 'van' country.
>

Contentious point #1
> Flemish *is* Dutch, essentially,

(It is the 'essentially' that is the let out clause here.) Although
Belgians admit Flemish is very similar to Dutch, they also strongly
insist that Flemish is the original language, and Dutch a modern take on
it - riddled with colonial words. The two even sound different to the
ear, Flemish being softer on the ears.


Contentious point #2
The borderlines
> between Flemish- and French-speaking areas in Belgium are not that clearly
> drawn,

You'd think differently if you ever stopped and asked the direction (in
French) in a Flemish-speaking region. Or vice-versa.

The only certain way to get a meaningful reply (rather than a blank
stare) in my experience was to ask the question in English.
Mark Brader
2018-05-18 08:46:16 UTC
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> Although Belgians admit Flemish is very similar to Dutch, they
> also strongly insist that Flemish is the original language,
> and Dutch a modern take on it...

Some of them may say that. But the only Belgian co-worker I ever
had identified his preferred language as "Dutch", and the Belgian
government identifies one of the country's official languages as
Dutch (or Nederlands, or le néerlandais, or Niederländisch). See

http://www.belgium.be/en/about_belgium/country/belgium_in_nutshell/filing_card_belgium

and try the interlanguage links at top left. For that matter, note
that one of those links is always NL.

It makes me wonder if the name "Flemish" was actually invented by
some Dutch people who didn't want to admit that it's all one language.
--
Mark Brader | "Design an idiot-proof system, and the universe
Toronto | will spontaneously evolve a higher grade of idiot
***@vex.net | that is able to circumvent it."

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-19 11:51:36 UTC
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On 2018-05-18 08:02:07 +0000, occam said:

> On 18/05/2018 02:00, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 17, 2018 at 7:58:35 AM UTC-7, occam wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2018 08:45, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
>>>>
>>>> Friendly correction: If it's Tuesday, *this* must be Belgium.
>>>>
>>>> bill, Flemish or Walloon?
>>>
>>> Shouldn't that be "bill, Flemish or Dutch?". Wallonia is more 'de' than
>>> 'van' country.
>>
>
> Contentious point #1
>> Flemish *is* Dutch, essentially,
>
> (It is the 'essentially' that is the let out clause here.) Although
> Belgians admit Flemish is very similar to Dutch, they also strongly
> insist that Flemish is the original language, and Dutch a modern take on
> it - riddled with colonial words. The two even sound different to the
> ear, Flemish being softer on the ears.
>
>
> Contentious point #2
> The borderlines
>> between Flemish- and French-speaking areas in Belgium are not that clearly
>> drawn,
>
> You'd think differently if you ever stopped and asked the direction (in
> French) in a Flemish-speaking region. Or vice-versa.
>
> The only certain way to get a meaningful reply (rather than a blank
> stare) in my experience was to ask the question in English.

It's OK to ask in French if the person you're asking knows that you're
not Belgian. Then they may suddenly realize that they can understand
French after all. Flemish speakers can also speak French when they're
not in Belgium, as I observed in Barcelona a few years ago. Probably
they also need to do so when they go to the Camargue to reproduce.

--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-19 17:24:23 UTC
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On Saturday, May 19, 2018 at 7:51:41 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-18 08:02:07 +0000, occam said:
>
> > On 18/05/2018 02:00, ***@shaw.ca wrote:
...

> > Contentious point #2
> > The borderlines
> >> between Flemish- and French-speaking areas in Belgium are not that clearly
> >> drawn,
> >
> > You'd think differently if you ever stopped and asked the direction (in
> > French) in a Flemish-speaking region. Or vice-versa.
> >
> > The only certain way to get a meaningful reply (rather than a blank
> > stare) in my experience was to ask the question in English.
>
> It's OK to ask in French if the person you're asking knows that you're
> not Belgian. Then they may suddenly realize that they can understand
> French after all. Flemish speakers can also speak French when they're
> not in Belgium, as I observed in Barcelona a few years ago. Probably
> they also need to do so when they go to the Camargue to reproduce.

:-)

--
Jerry Friedman
LFS
2018-05-13 13:06:01 UTC
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On 12/05/2018 21:21, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 20:45:22 +0100, HVS
> <***@REMOVE-THISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>>>
>>>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession
>> recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>>>>
>>>> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
>> Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
>> attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said
>> that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
>> declining after 1982. (*2)
>>>>
>>>> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned
>> sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be
>> most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
>>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase
>> in
>>> my view.
>>
>>
>>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of
>> the
>>> highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>>
>>
>>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>>
>>
>>> I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.
>>
>> "Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's similar.
>
> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
>


Which is just what Dingbat's recent tour reminded me of.

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-13 13:22:18 UTC
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On 2018-05-13 13:06:01 +0000, LFS said:

> On 12/05/2018 21:21, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 20:45:22 +0100, HVS
>> <***@REMOVE-THISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>>>>
>>>>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession
>>> recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
>>> Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
>>> attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said
>>> that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
>>> declining after 1982. (*2)
>>>>>
>>>>> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned
>>> sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be
>>> most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
>>>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase
>>> in
>>>> my view.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of
>>> the
>>>> highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>>>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>>>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.
>>>
>>> "Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's similar.
>>
>> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
>>
>
>
> Which is just what Dingbat's recent tour reminded me of.

To be fair, I don't think we know how long his tour took: maybe it was
six weeks.

I remember being amazed 40 years ago that my then head of department
was going to Australia for a congress and planned to come back after
being away less than a week. Now that I'm older than he was then I find
it less incomprehensible: when we were in Singapore a couple of months
ago we were away for about a week, and likewise in Tokyo in 2016. In
both cases we took hand luggage only. The point is that there are all
sorts of constraints that make it difficult to turn a working trip into
a holiday. Now, I don't suppose I'll ever need to go to St Ives in the
line of duty, and I imagine that Dingbat's trip was done for pleasure
rather than for work, but even so there are financial and time
constraints to be considered.`


--
athel
Peter Moylan
2018-05-13 15:18:24 UTC
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On 13/05/18 23:22, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-13 13:06:01 +0000, LFS said:
>
>> On 12/05/2018 21:21, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 20:45:22 +0100, HVS
>>> <***@REMOVE-THISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession
>>>> recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an
>>>>>> idiom, _a
>>>> Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
>>>> attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is
>>>> said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is
>>>> shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the
>>>>>> aforementioned
>>>> sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would
>>>> be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>>>
>>>>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While
>>>>> there's not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a
>>>>> viable phrase
>>>> in my view.
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a
>>>>> view of the highlights". It may not take much time, but the
>>>>> essence is that it covers just the basics or highlights of
>>>>> what's being toured.
>>>>
>>>>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>>>>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible
>>>>> source.
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.
>>>>
>>>> "Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's
>>>> similar.
>>>
>>> If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium
>>
>> Which is just what Dingbat's recent tour reminded me of.
>
> To be fair, I don't think we know how long his tour took: maybe it
> was six weeks.
>
> I remember being amazed 40 years ago that my then head of department
> was going to Australia for a congress and planned to come back after
> being away less than a week. Now that I'm older than he was then I
> find it less incomprehensible: when we were in Singapore a couple of
> months ago we were away for about a week, and likewise in Tokyo in
> 2016. In both cases we took hand luggage only. The point is that
> there are all sorts of constraints that make it difficult to turn a
> working trip into a holiday. Now, I don't suppose I'll ever need to
> go to St Ives in the line of duty, and I imagine that Dingbat's trip
> was done for pleasure rather than for work, but even so there are
> financial and time constraints to be considered.`

It used to be the case that an international trip from Australia was not
worth doing in less than three weeks. I don't know whether that rule of
thumb still applies, but I still apply it. (Most recently, about five or
six years ago. I told my girlfriend, who is now my wife, that we
shouldn't go to the south of France unless we went for three weeks. In
response, she juggled a lot of annual leave and rostered days off.
Perhaps that's why I married her.) When I was an academic, that meant
that I couldn't go to a one-week conference unless I could line up other
relevant activities for the other two weeks.

Why did we have that rule? I don't know, but I suspect it was because of
the way the airlines set international fares.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mark Brader
2018-05-12 21:17:24 UTC
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Tony Cooper:
> > I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a
> > view of the highlights". It may not take much time, but the
> > essence is that it covers just the basics or highlights of
> > what's being toured.

Harvey Van Sickle:
> "Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's similar.

Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a political
campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many locations as possible.
It's an allusion to the days when the politician would have traveled
by train and probably made a speech at each station from an open
platform at the rear of the train.
--
Mark Brader | "Design an idiot-proof system, and the universe
Toronto | will spontaneously evolve a higher grade of idiot
***@vex.net | that is able to circumvent it."

My text in this article is in the public domain.
HVS
2018-05-12 21:31:56 UTC
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On Sat, 12 May 2018 16:17:24 -0500, ***@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
> Tony Cooper:
> > > I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a
> > > view of the highlights". It may not take much time, but the
> > > essence is that it covers just the basics or highlights of
> > > what's being toured.


> Harvey Van Sickle:
> > "Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's similar.


> Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
political
> campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many locations as
possible.

That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.

It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run", which no
longer requires the service to involve actual milk.


> It's an allusion to the days when the politician would have traveled
> by train and probably made a speech at each station from an open
> platform at the rear of the train.
Mark Brader
2018-05-13 05:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Mark Brader:
> > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> > locations as possible.

Harvey Van Sickle:
> That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.

I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political context, and
I'm not sure when it would be used.

> It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run", which no
> longer requires the service to involve actual milk.

(By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps, by
extension, some other type of public transportation route rather than
a train.)

Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply slowness,
this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were relatively fast.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "You are not the customer,
***@vex.net you are the product."

My text in this article is in the public domain.
ErrolC
2018-05-13 06:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
> Mark Brader:
> > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> > > locations as possible.
>
> Harvey Van Sickle:
> > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
>
> I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
> context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
>

I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
as well as high-speed tourism.

> > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
> > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
>
> (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
> by extension, some other type of public transportation route
> rather than a train.)
>
> Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> relatively fast.

I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.

--
Errol Cavit
Mark Brader
2018-05-13 07:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Mark Brader:
>> Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
>> slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
>> relatively fast.

Errol Cavit:
> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.

Now that you mention it, so have I.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Courtesy, hell. We're programmers not humans."
***@vex.net | -- S. M. Ryan
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-13 10:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:05:19 -0500, ***@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Mark Brader:
>>> Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
>>> slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
>>> relatively fast.
>
>Errol Cavit:
>> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
>> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
>> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
>
>Now that you mention it, so have I.

Two dictionary definitions -

OED:
milk run n.
(a) = milk round n. (a);
(b) colloq. a routine trip or service, usually involving calls at
several places, esp. an early morning train or flight;
(c) spec. (U.S.A.F. slang), a safe or uneventful mission; a flight
completed without risk or incident.
....
1943 Yank 20 Jan. 6/1 The boys were rehashing the previous day's
party, which they had dubbed the ‘Morning Milk Run’.
1944 T. H. Wisdom Triumph over Tunisia vi. 54 It was General
Doolittle who organised the ‘milk-run’ Fortress raids on the ports
of Tunis and Bizerta.
1964 Observer 11 Oct. (Colour Suppl.) 17/2 Similar risks must be
taken by transport aircraft pilots, flying their daily ‘milk runs’
to supply jungle-bound positions along the 1,000-mile frontier [of
Borneo].
1969 Daily Tel. 11 Oct. 11/5 Another way of island hopping down
to Grenada..is to catch the early morning ‘milk-run’ plane from
Antigua, which calls in at Dominica, St. Lucia, Martinique and
Barbados, collecting and unloading passengers, mail and newspapers
as it goes.
....

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/milk_run

A routine, uneventful journey, especially by plane.

‘I was waiting to catch the milk run to Winnipeg’
‘My parents booked me on the Constitution, the liner that did the
milk run from New York to Cannes.’
‘It was a milk run, meaning it was an easy mission.’
‘While at first it looked like another milk run, it wasn't too long
until something unusual happened.’
‘It was supposed to be a milk run on the east side of the pass.’
‘Her first mission is a milk run, which I gather means it is really
easy.’
‘To every one's enormous relief, the first mission turns out to be a
milk run - hardly any flak, not a German fighter in the sky.’
‘His first ride was a milk run to pick up supplies in Japan.’


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Theodore Heise
2018-05-13 11:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:05:19 -0500,
Mark Brader <***@vex.net> wrote:
> Mark Brader:
> >> Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> >> slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> >> relatively fast.

> Errol Cavit:
> > I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> > WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> > modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
>
> Now that you mention it, so have I.

I had not recalled this usage either, but now that it's been
pointed out I think I probably had encountered it in "Catch 22."

--
Ted Heise <***@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA
John Varela
2018-05-15 00:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
> > Mark Brader:
> > > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> > > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> > > > locations as possible.
> >
> > Harvey Van Sickle:
> > > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> > > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
> >
> > I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
> > context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
> >
>
> I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
> as well as high-speed tourism.
>
> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
> >
> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
> > rather than a train.)
> >
> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> > relatively fast.
>
> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.

My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
not involve being shot at.

--
John Varela
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-05-15 11:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 15 May 2018 00:20:57 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
wrote:

> On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
>> > Mark Brader:
>> > > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
>> > > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
>> > > > locations as possible.
>> >
>> > Harvey Van Sickle:
>> > > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
>> > > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
>> >
>> > I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
>> > context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
>> >
>>
>> I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
>> as well as high-speed tourism.
>>
>> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
>> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
>> >
>> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
>> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
>> > rather than a train.)
>> >
>> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
>> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
>> > relatively fast.
>>
>> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
>> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
>> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
>
> My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
> principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
> not involve being shot at.
>

drifting; the first train of a morning (UK) is called the Milk Train,
though I doubt it still carries any large quantity of milk.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Richard Yates
2018-05-15 12:55:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 15 May 2018 11:40:28 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
<***@invalid.org> wrote:

>On Tue, 15 May 2018 00:20:57 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
>>> > Mark Brader:
>>> > > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
>>> > > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
>>> > > > locations as possible.
>>> >
>>> > Harvey Van Sickle:
>>> > > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
>>> > > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
>>> >
>>> > I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
>>> > context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
>>> as well as high-speed tourism.
>>>
>>> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
>>> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
>>> >
>>> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
>>> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
>>> > rather than a train.)
>>> >
>>> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
>>> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
>>> > relatively fast.
>>>
>>> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
>>> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
>>> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
>>
>> My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
>> principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
>> not involve being shot at.
>>
>
>drifting; the first train of a morning (UK) is called the Milk Train,
>though I doubt it still carries any large quantity of milk.

cf "milk run" - a routine, uneventful journey, especially by plane.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-15 13:03:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 8:55:11 AM UTC-4, Richard Yates wrote:
> On Tue, 15 May 2018 11:40:28 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
> <***@invalid.org> wrote:
> >On Tue, 15 May 2018 00:20:57 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> >wrote:
> >> On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
> >>> > Mark Brader:

[seemingly taking credit for something Harvey wrote -- I suppose a
consequence of screwing with the attributions.]
> >>> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
> >>> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
> >>> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
> >>> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
> >>> > rather than a train.)
> >>> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> >>> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> >>> > relatively fast.
> >>> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> >>> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> >>> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
> >> My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
> >> principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
> >> not involve being shot at.
> >drifting; the first train of a morning (UK) is called the Milk Train,
> >though I doubt it still carries any large quantity of milk.
>
> cf "milk run" - a routine, uneventful journey, especially by plane.

Has he "killfiled" the entire group? Not looked at _anything_ he quoted?
s***@gmail.com
2018-05-16 00:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 4:40:31 AM UTC-7, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> On Tue, 15 May 2018 00:20:57 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
> >> > Mark Brader:
> >> > > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> >> > > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> >> > > > locations as possible.
> >> >
> >> > Harvey Van Sickle:
> >> > > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> >> > > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
> >> >
> >> > I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
> >> > context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
> >> as well as high-speed tourism.
> >>
> >> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
> >> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
> >> >
> >> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
> >> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
> >> > rather than a train.)
> >> >
> >> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> >> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> >> > relatively fast.
> >>
> >> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> >> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> >> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
> >
> > My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
> > principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
> > not involve being shot at.
> >
>
> drifting; the first train of a morning (UK) is called the Milk Train,
> though I doubt it still carries any large quantity of milk.

My reply to Mr Bader offers a little bit about the AmE side of this.

/dps
J. J. Lodder
2018-05-16 19:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Kerr-Mudd,John <***@invalid.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 May 2018 00:20:57 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
> >> > Mark Brader:
> >> > > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> >> > > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> >> > > > locations as possible.
> >> >
> >> > Harvey Van Sickle:
> >> > > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> >> > > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
> >> >
> >> > I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
> >> > context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
> >> as well as high-speed tourism.
> >>
> >> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
> >> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
> >> >
> >> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
> >> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
> >> > rather than a train.)
> >> >
> >> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> >> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> >> > relatively fast.
> >>
> >> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> >> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> >> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
> >
> > My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
> > principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
> > not involve being shot at.
> >
>
> drifting; the first train of a morning (UK) is called the Milk Train,
> though I doubt it still carries any large quantity of milk.

With good reason. In the olden days
(before general use of pasteurisation)
the farmers milked the cows in the first light of the day,
and the fresh milk was transported directly to a dairy factory,
or to the end users in town.

In those days people knew what 'fresh milk' was,

Jan
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-16 22:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 20:35:27 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Kerr-Mudd,John <***@invalid.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 15 May 2018 00:20:57 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
> > >> > Mark Brader:
> > >> > > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> > >> > > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> > >> > > > locations as possible.
> > >> >
> > >> > Harvey Van Sickle:
> > >> > > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> > >> > > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
> > >> >
> > >> > I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
> > >> > context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
> > >> as well as high-speed tourism.
> > >>
> > >> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
> > >> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
> > >> >
> > >> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
> > >> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
> > >> > rather than a train.)
> > >> >
> > >> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> > >> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> > >> > relatively fast.
> > >>
> > >> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> > >> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> > >> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
> > >
> > > My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
> > > principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
> > > not involve being shot at.
> > >
> >
> > drifting; the first train of a morning (UK) is called the Milk Train,
> > though I doubt it still carries any large quantity of milk.
>
> With good reason. In the olden days
> (before general use of pasteurisation)
> the farmers milked the cows in the first light of the day,
> and the fresh milk was transported directly to a dairy factory,

As they still do. The only difference being that it is transported
in tankers by road instead of by train mostly as a result of the
destruction of the local rail network by one Mr Beeching.
J. J. Lodder
2018-05-17 09:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 20:35:27 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Kerr-Mudd,John <***@invalid.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 15 May 2018 00:20:57 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
> > > >> > Mark Brader:
> > > >> > > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> > > >> > > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> > > >> > > > locations as possible.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Harvey Van Sickle:
> > > >> > > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> > > >> > > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
> > > >> > context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >> I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
> > > >> as well as high-speed tourism.
> > > >>
> > > >> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
> > > >> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
> > > >> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
> > > >> > rather than a train.)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> > > >> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> > > >> > relatively fast.
> > > >>
> > > >> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> > > >> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> > > >> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
> > > >
> > > > My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
> > > > principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
> > > > not involve being shot at.
> > > >
> > >
> > > drifting; the first train of a morning (UK) is called the Milk Train,
> > > though I doubt it still carries any large quantity of milk.
> >
> > With good reason. In the olden days
> > (before general use of pasteurisation)
> > the farmers milked the cows in the first light of the day,
> > and the fresh milk was transported directly to a dairy factory,
>
> As they still do. The only difference being that it is transported
> in tankers by road instead of by train mostly as a result of the
> destruction of the local rail network by one Mr Beeching.

No doubt, but given universal cold storage
the need to transport fresh milk first thing in the morning
no longer exists.
While on trains: does anyone now if whisky
has ever be transported in bulk by rail?
Herge has a Loch Lomond tanker train in one of his Tintin books,
and Milou getting drunk from a leaking valve.

Basis in fact, or Herge invention?

Jan
Janet
2018-05-17 11:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, ***@de-
ster.demon.nl says...
>
> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 20:35:27 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > Kerr-Mudd,John <***@invalid.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, 15 May 2018 00:20:57 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
> > > > >> > Mark Brader:
> > > > >> > > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> > > > >> > > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> > > > >> > > > locations as possible.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Harvey Van Sickle:
> > > > >> > > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> > > > >> > > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
> > > > >> > context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
> > > > >> as well as high-speed tourism.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
> > > > >> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
> > > > >> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
> > > > >> > rather than a train.)
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> > > > >> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> > > > >> > relatively fast.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> > > > >> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> > > > >> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
> > > > >
> > > > > My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
> > > > > principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
> > > > > not involve being shot at.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > drifting; the first train of a morning (UK) is called the Milk Train,
> > > > though I doubt it still carries any large quantity of milk.
> > >
> > > With good reason. In the olden days
> > > (before general use of pasteurisation)
> > > the farmers milked the cows in the first light of the day,
> > > and the fresh milk was transported directly to a dairy factory,
> >
> > As they still do. The only difference being that it is transported
> > in tankers by road instead of by train mostly as a result of the
> > destruction of the local rail network by one Mr Beeching.
>
> No doubt, but given universal cold storage
> the need to transport fresh milk first thing in the morning
> no longer exists.
> While on trains: does anyone now if whisky
> has ever be transported in bulk by rail?
> Herge has a Loch Lomond tanker train in one of his Tintin books,
> and Milou getting drunk from a leaking valve.
>
> Basis in fact, or Herge invention?

Fantasy.

Janet


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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J. J. Lodder
2018-05-17 19:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Janet <***@home.com> wrote:

> In article <***@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, ***@de-
> ster.demon.nl says...
> >
> > Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 20:35:27 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > > Kerr-Mudd,John <***@invalid.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 15 May 2018 00:20:57 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
> > > > > >> > Mark Brader:
> > > > > >> > > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> > > > > >> > > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> > > > > >> > > > locations as possible.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Harvey Van Sickle:
> > > > > >> > > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> > > > > >> > > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
> > > > > >> > context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
> > > > > >> as well as high-speed tourism.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
> > > > > >> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
> > > > > >> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
> > > > > >> > rather than a train.)
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> > > > > >> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> > > > > >> > relatively fast.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> > > > > >> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> > > > > >> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
> > > > > > principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
> > > > > > not involve being shot at.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > drifting; the first train of a morning (UK) is called the Milk Train,
> > > > > though I doubt it still carries any large quantity of milk.
> > > >
> > > > With good reason. In the olden days
> > > > (before general use of pasteurisation)
> > > > the farmers milked the cows in the first light of the day,
> > > > and the fresh milk was transported directly to a dairy factory,
> > >
> > > As they still do. The only difference being that it is transported
> > > in tankers by road instead of by train mostly as a result of the
> > > destruction of the local rail network by one Mr Beeching.
> >
> > No doubt, but given universal cold storage
> > the need to transport fresh milk first thing in the morning
> > no longer exists.
> > While on trains: does anyone now if whisky
> > has ever be transported in bulk by rail?
> > Herge has a Loch Lomond tanker train in one of his Tintin books,
> > and Milou getting drunk from a leaking valve.
> >
> > Basis in fact, or Herge invention?
>
> Fantasy.
>
> Janet

Looking thing up leads to surprising results.
In the original edition Herge drew a 'Johnie Walker' tank waggon.
At the insistence of his English editor Herge changed that to a
non-existent fictive whisky brand, 'Loch Lomond',
after the really existing lake.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tintin/images/5/5a/Johhnie_Walker.jp
g/revision/latest?cb=20121228104528&format=original

And later still some enterprising Scotsmen set up 'Loch Lomond'
as a really existing brand of whisky.
So Herge really is the creator of 'Loch Lomond'.

Looking for tanker trains I find that these existed too, for example
http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brwhiskycontainerfbbfja
As noted already, replaced by tanker trucks after the destruction
of much of the railway network.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/vectrajof/galleries/72157628794796497/?rb
=1>
Surprise: look at #5

Herge is notorious for his realism in really existing detail,
but in the case of Loch Lomond reality followed Herge,

Jan
Janet
2018-05-17 23:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, ***@de-
ster.demon.nl says...
>
> Janet <***@home.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <***@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, ***@de-
> > ster.demon.nl says...
> > >
> > > Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 20:35:27 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > > > Kerr-Mudd,John <***@invalid.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, 15 May 2018 00:20:57 GMT, "John Varela" <***@verizon.net>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, 13 May 2018 06:27:06 UTC, ErrolC <***@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> On Sunday, 13 May 2018 17:05:18 UTC+12, Mark Brader wrote:
> > > > > > >> > Mark Brader:
> > > > > > >> > > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> > > > > > >> > > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> > > > > > >> > > > locations as possible.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Harvey Van Sickle:
> > > > > > >> > > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> > > > > > >> > > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political
> > > > > > >> > context, and I'm not sure when it would be used.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I've heard it used for management visits to various sites,
> > > > > > >> as well as high-speed tourism.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run",
> > > > > > >> > > which no longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps,
> > > > > > >> > by extension, some other type of public transportation route
> > > > > > >> > rather than a train.)
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply
> > > > > > >> > slowness, this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were
> > > > > > >> > relatively fast.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I've mainly heard it used to imply routine and easy - specifically
> > > > > > >> WW2 bombing missions to comparatively easy targets, as well as
> > > > > > >> modern-day fixed-route regular military cargo flights.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My understanding of the term was that in WWII the term was used
> > > > > > > principally for routine cargo trips, either by air or sea, that did
> > > > > > > not involve being shot at.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > drifting; the first train of a morning (UK) is called the Milk Train,
> > > > > > though I doubt it still carries any large quantity of milk.
> > > > >
> > > > > With good reason. In the olden days
> > > > > (before general use of pasteurisation)
> > > > > the farmers milked the cows in the first light of the day,
> > > > > and the fresh milk was transported directly to a dairy factory,
> > > >
> > > > As they still do. The only difference being that it is transported
> > > > in tankers by road instead of by train mostly as a result of the
> > > > destruction of the local rail network by one Mr Beeching.
> > >
> > > No doubt, but given universal cold storage
> > > the need to transport fresh milk first thing in the morning
> > > no longer exists.
> > > While on trains: does anyone now if whisky
> > > has ever be transported in bulk by rail?
> > > Herge has a Loch Lomond tanker train in one of his Tintin books,
> > > and Milou getting drunk from a leaking valve.
> > >
> > > Basis in fact, or Herge invention?
> >
> > Fantasy.
> >
> > Janet
>
> Looking thing up leads to surprising results.
> In the original edition Herge drew a 'Johnie Walker' tank waggon.
> At the insistence of his English editor Herge changed that to a
> non-existent fictive whisky brand, 'Loch Lomond',
> after the really existing lake.
> https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tintin/images/5/5a/Johhnie_Walker.jp
> g/revision/latest?cb=20121228104528&format=original
>
> And later still some enterprising Scotsmen set up 'Loch Lomond'
> as a really existing brand of whisky.
> So Herge really is the creator of 'Loch Lomond'.

Only if he was a past and future timetraveller.

http://www.lochlomondwhiskies.com/distillery/

The long defunct first LL distillery at the north end of the loch
predates the railway to Tarbet.
Tintin predates the second LL distillery at the southern end of the
loch.


Janet.
J. J. Lodder
2018-05-18 07:53:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Janet <***@home.com> wrote:

> In article <***@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, ***@de-
> ster.demon.nl says...
> >
> > Janet <***@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <***@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, ***@de-
> > > ster.demon.nl says...
> > > >
> > > > Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Wednesday, 16 May 2018 20:35:27 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[milk trains early in the morning]
> > > > > > With good reason. In the olden days
> > > > > > (before general use of pasteurisation)
> > > > > > the farmers milked the cows in the first light of the day,
> > > > > > and the fresh milk was transported directly to a dairy factory,
> > > > >
> > > > > As they still do. The only difference being that it is transported
> > > > > in tankers by road instead of by train mostly as a result of the
> > > > > destruction of the local rail network by one Mr Beeching.
> > > >
> > > > No doubt, but given universal cold storage
> > > > the need to transport fresh milk first thing in the morning
> > > > no longer exists.
> > > > While on trains: does anyone now if whisky
> > > > has ever be transported in bulk by rail?
> > > > Herge has a Loch Lomond tanker train in one of his Tintin books,
> > > > and Milou getting drunk from a leaking valve.
> > > >
> > > > Basis in fact, or Herge invention?
> > >
> > > Fantasy.
> > >
> > > Janet
> >
> > Looking thing up leads to surprising results.
> > In the original edition Herge drew a 'Johnie Walker' tank waggon.
> > At the insistence of his English editor Herge changed that to a
> > non-existent fictive whisky brand, 'Loch Lomond',
> > after the really existing lake.
> > https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tintin/images/5/5a/Johhnie_Walker.jp
> > g/revision/latest?cb=20121228104528&format=original
> >
> > And later still some enterprising Scotsmen set up 'Loch Lomond'
> > as a really existing brand of whisky.
> > So Herge really is the creator of 'Loch Lomond'.
>
> Only if he was a past and future timetraveller.
>
> http://www.lochlomondwhiskies.com/distillery/
>
> The long defunct first LL distillery at the north end of the loch
> predates the railway to Tarbet.
> Tintin predates the second LL distillery at the southern end of the
> loch.

A weak excuse. The first LL distillery had been dead and forgotten
for more than a hundred years.
So dead that they don't even know for how long it has been dead.

Jan

FYA, The one and only real 'Loch Lomond' railway car really exists.
It can be seen in Brussels, at Tintin exposotions.
They also have some Tintin replica cars.
They are really crazy about everything Tintin there.
RH Draney
2018-05-18 04:47:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/17/2018 12:03 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> In the original edition Herge drew a 'Johnie Walker' tank waggon.
> At the insistence of his English editor Herge changed that to a
> non-existent fictive whisky brand, 'Loch Lomond',
> after the really existing lake.
>
> And later still some enterprising Scotsmen set up 'Loch Lomond'
> as a really existing brand of whisky.
> So Herge really is the creator of 'Loch Lomond'.

I got to thinking recently about whether reality is subject to
retconning...specifically, should a pub trivia master accept "plutonium"
as an example of an element named for a planet?...after all, Pluto was a
planet when the naming occurred....

(Or is plutonium now to be classed as a "dwarf element"?)...r
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-18 11:34:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, 18 May 2018 05:47:41 UTC+1, RH Draney wrote:
> On 5/17/2018 12:03 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >
> > In the original edition Herge drew a 'Johnie Walker' tank waggon.
> > At the insistence of his English editor Herge changed that to a
> > non-existent fictive whisky brand, 'Loch Lomond',
> > after the really existing lake.
> >
> > And later still some enterprising Scotsmen set up 'Loch Lomond'
> > as a really existing brand of whisky.
> > So Herge really is the creator of 'Loch Lomond'.
>
> I got to thinking recently about whether reality is subject to
> retconning...specifically, should a pub trivia master accept "plutonium"
> as an example of an element named for a planet?...after all, Pluto was a
> planet when the naming occurred....
>
> (Or is plutonium now to be classed as a "dwarf element"?)...r

Yes! It was named after a planet in sequence with uranium and neptunium.
That Pluto is no longer a planet is completely irrelevant to the question
as phrased. If the question required the naming of a planet which has an
element named after it, that would be a whole other boiling pan of sharks.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-19 11:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-18 11:34:35 +0000, Madrigal Gurneyhalt said:

> On Friday, 18 May 2018 05:47:41 UTC+1, RH Draney wrote:
>> On 5/17/2018 12:03 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>
>>> In the original edition Herge drew a 'Johnie Walker' tank waggon.
>>> At the insistence of his English editor Herge changed that to a
>>> non-existent fictive whisky brand, 'Loch Lomond',
>>> after the really existing lake.
>>>
>>> And later still some enterprising Scotsmen set up 'Loch Lomond'
>>> as a really existing brand of whisky.
>>> So Herge really is the creator of 'Loch Lomond'.
>>
>> I got to thinking recently about whether reality is subject to
>> retconning...specifically, should a pub trivia master accept "plutonium"
>> as an example of an element named for a planet?...after all, Pluto was a
>> planet when the naming occurred....
>>
>> (Or is plutonium now to be classed as a "dwarf element"?)...r
>
> Yes! It was named after a planet in sequence with uranium and neptunium.

not to mention Mercury.

> That Pluto is no longer a planet is completely irrelevant to the question
> as phrased. If the question required the naming of a planet which has an
> element named after it, that would be a whole other boiling pan of sharks.


--
athel
Peter Moylan
2018-05-19 23:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 19/05/18 21:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-18 11:34:35 +0000, Madrigal Gurneyhalt said:
>
>> On Friday, 18 May 2018 05:47:41 UTC+1, RH Draney wrote:

>>> I got to thinking recently about whether reality is subject to
>>> retconning...specifically, should a pub trivia master accept "plutonium"
>>> as an example of an element named for a planet?...after all, Pluto was a
>>> planet when the naming occurred....
>>>
>>> (Or is plutonium now to be classed as a "dwarf element"?)...r
>>
>> Yes! It was named after a planet in sequence with uranium and neptunium.
>
> not to mention Mercury.
>
>> That Pluto is no longer a planet is completely irrelevant to the question
>> as phrased. If the question required the naming of a planet which has an
>> element named after it, that would be a whole other boiling pan of
>> sharks.

I avoid the "planet" question by thinking of Pluto as the dog star.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
RH Draney
2018-05-20 03:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/19/2018 4:50 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/05/18 21:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-18 11:34:35 +0000, Madrigal Gurneyhalt said:
>>
>>> On Friday, 18 May 2018 05:47:41 UTC+1, RH Draney  wrote:
>
>>>> I got to thinking recently about whether reality is subject to
>>>> retconning...specifically, should a pub trivia master accept
>>>> "plutonium"
>>>> as an example of an element named for a planet?...after all, Pluto
>>>> was a
>>>> planet when the naming occurred....
>>>>
>>>> (Or is plutonium now to be classed as a "dwarf element"?)...r
>>>
>>> Yes! It was named after a planet in sequence with uranium and neptunium.
>>
>> not to mention Mercury.
>>
>>> That Pluto is no longer a planet is completely irrelevant to the
>>> question
>>> as phrased. If the question required the naming of a planet which has an
>>> element named after it, that would be a whole other boiling pan of
>>> sharks.
>
> I avoid the "planet" question by thinking of Pluto as the dog star.

As opposed to Procyon, the coon star....r
s***@gmail.com
2018-05-16 00:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 10:05:18 PM UTC-7, Mark Brader wrote:
> Mark Brader:
> > > Not very similar. A whistle-stop tour is done as part of a
> > > political campaign, and consists of brief visits to as many
> > > locations as possible.
>
> Harvey Van Sickle:
> > That's a form of etymological fallacy - the expression
> > escaped the restriction to politics many moons ago.
>
> I don't think I've ever encountered it in a non-political context, and
> I'm not sure when it would be used.
>
> > It's like describing a stopping service as the "milk run", which no
> > longer requires the service to involve actual milk.
>
> (By "stopping service" Harvey means a local train -- or perhaps, by
> extension, some other type of public transportation route rather than
> a train.)
>
> Indeed, while the term "milk run" is usually used to imply slowness,
> this is a sense drift since actual milk trains were relatively fast.

Not really, IIRC. There were express trains from creameries to the market
carrying large quantities of milk,
but the large quantities came from (in those days)
a large number of small dairies.
The milk run was an early morning all-stops train
(often a branch passenger train, again IIRC)
that picked up a few of those [galvanized] milk cans at each platform.
At the creamery, this would be combined in various ways,
including tank cars of milk.

Whilst that part of my railroad press reading was sometime ago,
my impression is that in the US this scheme was most common
in the Northeastern states.

(Visual aid: picture of Borchart Bros Galvanized Milk Can --
<URL:https://www.pinterest.com/pin/306667055850542702/>
)

/dps
Sam Plusnet
2018-05-12 21:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 12-May-18 20:45, HVS wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> >Ladies and Gentlemen,
>> >
>> >A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession
> recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>> >
>> >In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
> Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
> attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that
> this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
> declining after 1982. (*2)
>> >
>> >Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned
> sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most
> grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>> >
>
>
>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me.  While there's
>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase
> in
>> my view.
>
>
>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of
> the
>> highlights".  It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>
>
>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>
>
>> I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.
>
> "Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's similar.

Interesting.

Whilst I know the phrase, I don't see anything in it which suggests an
unnatural or unseemly haste, simply a wide-raging tour of places of
interest.

--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-13 12:14:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 22:50:46 +0100, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> wrote:

>On 12-May-18 20:45, HVS wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> >Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>> >
>>> >A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession
>> recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>>> >
>>> >In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
>> Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
>> attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that
>> this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
>> declining after 1982. (*2)
>>> >
>>> >Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned
>> sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most
>> grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>> >
>>
>>
>>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me.  While there's
>>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase
>> in
>>> my view.
>>
>>
>>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of
>> the
>>> highlights".  It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>>
>>
>>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>>
>>
>>> I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.
>>
>> "Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's similar.
>
>Interesting.
>
>Whilst I know the phrase, I don't see anything in it which suggests an
>unnatural or unseemly haste, simply a wide-raging tour of places of
>interest.

OED:
whistle-stop, n.

orig. U.S.
Thesaurus »
Categories »

1. A small station or town at which trains do not stop unless
requested by a signal given on a whistle.

1934 M. H. Weseen Dict. Amer. Slang 418 Whistle Stop, a small
town.
....

3. Used attrib. to designate a journey with a lot of brief halts;
spec. one by a campaigning politician that takes in many
undistinguished places in this way. Also fig.

1949 Time 6 June 22/1 Louis Johnson..raised enough money..to pay
for Harry Truman's whistle-stop campaign.
1952 Manch. Guardian Weekly 18 Sept. 3/1 On the whistle-stop
tour down California's Central Valley.
....


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Sam Plusnet
2018-05-13 20:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 13-May-18 13:14, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 22:50:46 +0100, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12-May-18 20:45, HVS wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>>>>
>>>>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession
>>> recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
>>> Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
>>> attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that
>>> this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
>>> declining after 1982. (*2)
>>>>>
>>>>> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned
>>> sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most
>>> grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me.  While there's
>>>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase
>>> in
>>>> my view.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of
>>> the
>>>> highlights".  It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>>>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>>>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.
>>>
>>> "Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's similar.
>>
>> Interesting.
>>
>> Whilst I know the phrase, I don't see anything in it which suggests an
>> unnatural or unseemly haste, simply a wide-raging tour of places of
>> interest.
>
> OED:
> whistle-stop, n.
>
> orig. U.S.
> Thesaurus »
> Categories »
>
> 1. A small station or town at which trains do not stop unless
> requested by a signal given on a whistle.
>
> 1934 M. H. Weseen Dict. Amer. Slang 418 Whistle Stop, a small
> town.
> ....
>
> 3. Used attrib. to designate a journey with a lot of brief halts;
> spec. one by a campaigning politician that takes in many
> undistinguished places in this way. Also fig.
>
> 1949 Time 6 June 22/1 Louis Johnson..raised enough money..to pay
> for Harry Truman's whistle-stop campaign.
> 1952 Manch. Guardian Weekly 18 Sept. 3/1 On the whistle-stop
> tour down California's Central Valley.
> ....
>
>
Sorry Peter, I should have said that I was referring "Cooks Tour" & not
"whistle-stop".

--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-13 22:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 21:46:04 +0100, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> wrote:

>On 13-May-18 13:14, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 22:50:46 +0100, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12-May-18 20:45, HVS wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession
>>>> recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
>>>> Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
>>>> attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that
>>>> this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
>>>> declining after 1982. (*2)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned
>>>> sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most
>>>> grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me.  While there's
>>>>> not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase
>>>> in
>>>>> my view.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of
>>>> the
>>>>> highlights".  It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>>>>> covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>>>>> necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.
>>>>
>>>> "Whistle-stop tour" isn't an exact equivalent, but it's similar.
>>>
>>> Interesting.
>>>
>>> Whilst I know the phrase, I don't see anything in it which suggests an
>>> unnatural or unseemly haste, simply a wide-raging tour of places of
>>> interest.
>>
>> OED:
>> whistle-stop, n.
>>
>> orig. U.S.
>> Thesaurus »
>> Categories »
>>
>> 1. A small station or town at which trains do not stop unless
>> requested by a signal given on a whistle.
>>
>> 1934 M. H. Weseen Dict. Amer. Slang 418 Whistle Stop, a small
>> town.
>> ....
>>
>> 3. Used attrib. to designate a journey with a lot of brief halts;
>> spec. one by a campaigning politician that takes in many
>> undistinguished places in this way. Also fig.
>>
>> 1949 Time 6 June 22/1 Louis Johnson..raised enough money..to pay
>> for Harry Truman's whistle-stop campaign.
>> 1952 Manch. Guardian Weekly 18 Sept. 3/1 On the whistle-stop
>> tour down California's Central Valley.
>> ....
>>
>>
>Sorry Peter, I should have said that I was referring "Cooks Tour" & not
>"whistle-stop".

That's OK.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
micky
2018-05-13 00:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 12 May 2018 13:17:33 -0400, Tony Cooper
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tacia
><***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>
>>A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>>
>>In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
>>
>>Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>
>
>If it's in the rare usage category, it surprises me. While there's
>not a lot of instances where it can be used, it is a viable phrase in
>my view.
>
>I don't think of it so much as "a quick visit" as I do "a view of the
>highlights". It may not take much time, but the essence is that it
>covers just the basics or highlights of what's being toured.

That's how I take it too.

As to 1982, did anything happen then that would cause usage to decline?
Did the company close then? Or, and I'll bet this is it, they just
didn't find as many printed references after that date, which doesn't
seem to me to really mena it's declining. Lots of stuff don't make it
to print.
>
>I did not know it came from Thomas Cook, Ltd or that it was
>necessarily British, but I never thought about the possible source.
>
>I don't know of any standard phrase alternates.


--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.
CDB
2018-05-12 19:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/12/2018 12:50 PM, Tacia wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,

> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently.
> It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.

> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
> Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
> attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said
> that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
> declining after 1982. (*2)

> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense
> is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most
> grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.

> *1: [
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cRDgLpFgKHZOo3YtUhocYxcCuV7ikSfP/view
> ] (an uploaded picture) *2: [
> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cooks-tour ]

Your book is correct. The phrase is a reference to Thomas
Cook, whose travel agency in Great Britain (still doing well) provided
recreational travel in groups to the general public, beginning in the
Nineteenth Century.

I would suggest that you use another phrase to avoid causing puzzlement
to those who don't know the idiom, and perhaps to avoid unexpected
implications*. "A quick tour" would work well in many cases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cook
_____________________________________________
*I don't have a particular implication in mind. In foreign languages, I
try to avoid using forms I'm not sure of, as a general principle.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-12 21:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 15:00:20 -0400, CDB <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/12/2018 12:50 PM, Tacia wrote:
>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently.
>> It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>
>> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
>> Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
>> attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said
>> that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
>> declining after 1982. (*2)
>
>> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense
>> is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most
>> grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>
>> *1: [
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cRDgLpFgKHZOo3YtUhocYxcCuV7ikSfP/view
>> ] (an uploaded picture) *2: [
>> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cooks-tour ]
>
>Your book is correct. The phrase is a reference to Thomas
>Cook, whose travel agency in Great Britain (still doing well) provided
>recreational travel in groups to the general public, beginning in the
>Nineteenth Century.

We need to be cautious about the phrase "travel agency". Today it is an
intermediary between the traveller (customer) and the tour operator
airline, shipping line, etc.
As described in the Wikiparticle linked to below, Thomas Cook is more
than that.
>
>I would suggest that you use another phrase to avoid causing puzzlement
>to those who don't know the idiom, and perhaps to avoid unexpected
>implications*. "A quick tour" would work well in many cases.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cook
>_____________________________________________
>*I don't have a particular implication in mind. In foreign languages, I
>try to avoid using forms I'm not sure of, as a general principle.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 21:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 5:36:46 PM UTC-4, PeterWD wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 15:00:20 -0400, CDB <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On 5/12/2018 12:50 PM, Tacia wrote:

> >> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently.
> >> It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
> >> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a
> >> Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an
> >> attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said
> >> that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be
> >> declining after 1982. (*2)
> >> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense
> >> is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most
> >> grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
> >> *1: [
> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cRDgLpFgKHZOo3YtUhocYxcCuV7ikSfP/view
> >> ] (an uploaded picture) *2: [
> >> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cooks-tour ]
> >Your book is correct. The phrase is a reference to Thomas
> >Cook, whose travel agency in Great Britain (still doing well) provided
> >recreational travel in groups to the general public, beginning in the
> >Nineteenth Century.
>
> We need to be cautious about the phrase "travel agency". Today it is an
> intermediary between the traveller (customer) and the tour operator
> airline, shipping line, etc.
> As described in the Wikiparticle linked to below, Thomas Cook is more
> than that.

I wonder whether people on a Cook's Tour would use a Baedeker. Though they
ain't what they used to be. Neither are Michelin Green Guides.
Don P
2018-05-13 15:29:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 12/05/2018 12:50 PM, Tacia wrote:

> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>
> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
>
> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cook provides information about the
real Mr. Cook, who invented in England in 1841 the first tour (to
experience the novelty of railway travel.) Cook's Tours entered the
English language when Cook became famous as the organizer of guided
tours overseas, first to France and Germany, later to Egypt and Palestine.

What is distinctive about a Cook's Tour is (1) an itinerary and
timetable set by the tour operator, not individual travelers, (2) for a
group of people who do not know each other beforehand, (3) prepaid for a
single price that includes travel, accommodation, food and guide or
interpreter services. But that was a century ago, so no one guarantees
today's users of the phrase mean exactly that. Like American Express,
Cook's Tours also maintained offices overseas where customers could
collect personal mail, exchange currency, etc.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Pavel Svinchnik
2018-05-15 00:55:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, Tacia wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>
> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
>
> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>
> *1: [ https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cRDgLpFgKHZOo3YtUhocYxcCuV7ikSfP/view ] (an uploaded picture)
> *2: [ https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cooks-tour ]
>
> Best Wishes,
> Tacia

Growing up in Cleveland, Ohio, in the 1950's, the term denoted a quick but thorough informal tour behind the scenes, such as the cook might give of a restaurant, as opposed to a tour put on by the marketing manager. I don't think anyone in my neighborhood ever heard of the Thomas Cook tour company so the term got interpreted by implication.

Paul
Richard Yates
2018-05-15 01:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:55:44 -0700 (PDT), Pavel Svinchnik
<***@jhmi.edu> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, Tacia wrote:
>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>
>> A second-hand idiom reference book came into my possession recently. It was published by a Hong Kong publisher in 1995.
>>
>> In the entry of "Cook's tour," it is said that, "as an idiom, _a Cook's tour_ has come to mean a quick visit to a place or an attraction." (*1) However, on [ collinsdictionary.com ], it is said that this idiom is used rarely, and its recorded usage is shown to be declining after 1982. (*2)
>>
>> Kindly shed some light whether such usage of the aforementioned sense is recommended or not in modern writing. If not, I would be most grateful if you could suggest alternative expressions.
>>
>> *1: [ https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cRDgLpFgKHZOo3YtUhocYxcCuV7ikSfP/view ] (an uploaded picture)
>> *2: [ https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cooks-tour ]
>>
>> Best Wishes,
>> Tacia
>
>Growing up in Cleveland, Ohio, in the 1950's, the term denoted a quick but thorough informal tour behind the scenes, such as the cook might give of a restaurant, as opposed to a tour put on by the marketing manager. I don't think anyone in my neighborhood ever heard of the Thomas Cook tour company so the term got interpreted by implication.

I always thought that it had something to do with 18th Century
explorer Capt. James Cook. But I falsely induced that when I was very
young and never, until this week, heard of another origin, or of an
example that did not fit my imagined definition.
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