Discussion:
OT: Catalonia
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Harrison Hill
2017-10-09 16:05:41 UTC
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As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.

If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.

We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-09 17:40:01 UTC
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On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 10:05:43 AM UTC-6, Harrison Hill wrote:

> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.

...

I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
English would say "Catalan" in English, /'k&***@l&n/ ("CATtle Ann"),
instead of attempting Spanish.

--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-09 18:53:12 UTC
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On 2017-10-09 17:40:01 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:

> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 10:05:43 AM UTC-6, Harrison Hill wrote:
>
>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>
> ...
>
> I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
> English would say "Catalan" in English, /'k&***@l&n/ ("CATtle Ann"),
> instead of attempting Spanish.

I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
than on the first, but otherwise very similar.

What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?


--
athel
Garrett Wollman
2017-10-09 19:08:44 UTC
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In article <***@mid.individual.net>,
Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>On 2017-10-09 17:40:01 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
>> I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
>> English would say "Catalan" in English, /'k&***@l&n/ ("CATtle Ann"),
>> instead of attempting Spanish.
>
>I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
>you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
>Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
>than on the first, but otherwise very similar.
>
>What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?

/kat@'lan/ or /kata'lan/ (with the /a/ ~ /A/ and /t/ realized
variously according to native-English dialect). The same people often
pronounce the region /kat@'lUnj@/ rather than the 5-syllable
traditional English /k&t@'loUni@/. For a British (Scottish) example,
see Rachel McCormack.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-09 21:57:42 UTC
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On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 1:08:46 PM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <***@mid.individual.net>,
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >On 2017-10-09 17:40:01 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
> >> I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
> >> English would say "Catalan" in English, /'k&***@l&n/ ("CATtle Ann"),
> >> instead of attempting Spanish.
> >
> >I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
> >you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
> >Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
> >than on the first, but otherwise very similar.

Though in Catalan there's no /n/, right? I haven't heard that in English.

> >What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?
>
> /kat@'lan/ or /kata'lan/ (with the /a/ ~ /A/ and /t/ realized
> variously according to native-English dialect).

Exactly.

> The same people often
> pronounce the region /kat@'lUnj@/ rather than the 5-syllable
> traditional English /k&t@'loUni@/. For a British (Scottish) example,
> see Rachel McCormack.

I don't remember hearing that, but I don't hear all that many people
talking about the subject.

--
Jerry Friedman
Jack Campin
2017-10-09 22:11:38 UTC
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>> The same people often pronounce the region /kat@'lUnj@/ rather
>> than the 5-syllable traditional English /k&t@'loUni@/. For a
>> British (Scottish) example, see Rachel McCormack.
> I don't remember hearing that, but I don't hear all that many
> people talking about the subject.

You'll be hearing a lot more now.

What I'm getting from Catalan independence activists recently
is that they prefer to use "Catalonia" with English speakers.
I have been to a couple of demos for it and followed a fair bit
of on-line discussion, and "Catalunya" is hardly used at all in
English any more. It's possibly a disavowal of terminological
self-righteousness, in which case I'm all for it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 05:38:40 UTC
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On 2017-10-09 22:11:38 +0000, Jack Campin said:

>>>
>>> The same people often pronounce the region /kat@'lUnj@/ rather
>>> than the 5-syllable traditional English /k&t@'loUni@/. For a
>>> British (Scottish) example, see Rachel McCormack.
>> I don't remember hearing that, but I don't hear all that many
>> people talking about the subject.
>
> You'll be hearing a lot more now.
>
> What I'm getting from Catalan independence activists recently
> is that they prefer to use "Catalonia" with English speakers.

It was probably 20 years ago when my daughter, then a teenager,
corrected me for saying Cataluña in English. She told me I should say
Catalonia.

> I have been to a couple of demos for it and followed a fair bit
> of on-line discussion, and "Catalunya" is hardly used at all in
> English any more. It's possibly a disavowal of terminological
> self-righteousness, in which case I'm all for it.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
> Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
> mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin


--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-10 12:49:20 UTC
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On 10/9/17 4:11 PM, Jack Campin wrote:
>>> The same people often pronounce the region /kat@'lUnj@/ rather
>>> than the 5-syllable traditional English /k&t@'loUni@/. For a
>>> British (Scottish) example, see Rachel McCormack.
>> I don't remember hearing that, but I don't hear all that many
>> people talking about the subject.
>
> You'll be hearing a lot more now.

I certainly have been for the last few weeks, but "a lot more" is still
not a lot for me, partly because I don't /hear/ a lot of news. So far I
haven't heard Catalan independence come up in conversation.

> What I'm getting from Catalan independence activists recently
> is that they prefer to use "Catalonia" with English speakers.
> I have been to a couple of demos for it and followed a fair bit
> of on-line discussion, and "Catalunya" is hardly used at all in
> English any more. It's possibly a disavowal of terminological
> self-righteousness, in which case I'm all for it.

I'm all for that one, anyway.

--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 05:35:54 UTC
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On 2017-10-09 21:57:42 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:

> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 1:08:46 PM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>,
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>> On 2017-10-09 17:40:01 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
>>>> I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
>>>> English would say "Catalan" in English, /'k&***@l&n/ ("CATtle Ann"),
>>>> instead of attempting Spanish.
>>>
>>> I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
>>> you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
>>> Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
>>> than on the first, but otherwise very similar.
>
> Though in Catalan there's no /n/, right?

Yes, you're right.

> I haven't heard that in English.
>
>>> What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?
>>
>> /kat@'lan/ or /kata'lan/ (with the /a/ ~ /A/ and /t/ realized
>> variously according to native-English dialect).
>
> Exactly.
>
>> The same people often
>> pronounce the region /kat@'lUnj@/ rather than the 5-syllable
>> traditional English /k&t@'loUni@/. For a British (Scottish) example,
>> see Rachel McCormack.
>
> I don't remember hearing that, but I don't hear all that many people
> talking about the subject.


--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-10 12:51:58 UTC
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On 10/9/17 12:53 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2017-10-09 17:40:01 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
>
>> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 10:05:43 AM UTC-6, Harrison Hill wrote:
>>
>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
>> English would say "Catalan" in English, /'k&***@l&n/ ("CATtle Ann"),
>> instead of attempting Spanish.
>
> I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
> you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
> Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
> than on the first, but otherwise very similar.
>
> What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?

Here's an example from yesterday evening.

http://www.npr.org/2017/10/09/556701132/after-catalonias-independence-vote-many-spaniards-rally-behind-their-government

--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 14:04:12 UTC
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On 2017-10-10 14:51:58 +0200, Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> said:

> On 10/9/17 12:53 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2017-10-09 17:40:01 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
>>
>>> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 10:05:43 AM UTC-6, Harrison Hill wrote:
>>>
>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
>>> English would say "Catalan" in English, /'k&***@l&n/ ("CATtle Ann"),
>>> instead of attempting Spanish.
>>
>> I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
>> you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
>> Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
>> than on the first, but otherwise very similar.
>>
>> What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?
>
> Here's an example from yesterday evening.
>
> http://www.npr.org/2017/10/09/556701132/after-catalonias-independence-vote-many-spaniards-rally-behind-their-government

I'll
>
try that on my portable at home, but I don't get any sound recordings
from it on this computer.

"Spanish flags suddenly adorn Madrid balconies. Many Spaniards are
rallying behind their government as it cracks down on Catalonia's
independence push. Some accuse Catalonia of threatening democracy."

A nice bit of ambiguity in the the last sentence: are they suggesting
that Catalonia will introduce democracy or threaten its existence?

When I was 7 to 12 I lived in a house called Catalone. At the time it
was just the name of a house, but long after I asked my aunt why it was
called that and she said tha Catalone was a place in Cape Breton Island
where my grandfather went fishing. Only much later still did I wonder
if its name had anything to do with Catalonia. Wikipedia informs me
that it was named after a French cartographer called Gédéon de
Catalogne, so the connection with Catalonia seems remote.

--
athel
Whiskers
2017-10-09 19:27:11 UTC
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On 2017-10-09, Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>
> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> on you, he or she will walk out.
>
> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.

Clearly the Spanish central government are still using the style of
government taught to and by Churchill and Stalin.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-10 07:36:59 UTC
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El 09/10/17 a las 21:27, Whiskers escribió:
> On 2017-10-09, Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>
>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>> on you, he or she will walk out.

A group of people can't just steal part of a country.

>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.

Farridge is an idiot. It wasn't mishandled.

> Clearly the Spanish central government are still using the style of
> government taught to and by Churchill and Stalin.
>

No. They're playing a waiting game. That stuff on Sunday the 1st was orchestrated by
extremists. The demonstration by a million anti-nobs in Barcelona the other day was much
more representative of the underlying mood. As usual, the minority fuck everything up for
the majority.

Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time. Then it might kick
off.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
Bob Martin
2017-10-10 08:09:08 UTC
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in 2433661 20171010 083659 Paul Carmichael <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>El 09/10/17 a las 21:27, Whiskers escribió:
>> On 2017-10-09, Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>
>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>
>A group of people can't just steal part of a country.

Who owns "a part of a country"? The people who live and work there
or a bunch of politicians, most representing people who live elsewhere?

>
>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>
>Farridge is an idiot. It wasn't mishandled.
>
>> Clearly the Spanish central government are still using the style of
>> government taught to and by Churchill and Stalin.
>>
>
>No. They're playing a waiting game. That stuff on Sunday the 1st was orchestrated by
>extremists. The demonstration by a million anti-nobs in Barcelona the other day was much
>more representative of the underlying mood. As usual, the minority fuck everything up for
>the majority.
>
>Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time. Then it might kick
>off.
>
>--
>Paul.
>
>https://paulc.es/
>https://asetrad.org
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-10 08:31:03 UTC
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El 10/10/17 a las 10:09, Bob Martin escribió:
> in 2433661 20171010 083659 Paul Carmichael <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> El 09/10/17 a las 21:27, Whiskers escribió:
>>> On 2017-10-09, Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>>
>>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>
>> A group of people can't just steal part of a country.
>
> Who owns "a part of a country"? The people who live and work there
> or a bunch of politicians, most representing people who live elsewhere?

The country as a whole. It's called democracy.


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 08:15:01 UTC
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On 2017-10-10 07:36:59 +0000, Paul Carmichael said:

> El 09/10/17 a las 21:27, Whiskers escribió:
>> On 2017-10-09, Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>
>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>
> A group of people can't just steal part of a country.
>
>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>
> Farridge is an idiot. It wasn't mishandled.

I wonder if HH has realized that many of the so-called pictures of
police violence were faked or did not refer to Barcelona on 1st
October. See

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/06/inenglish/1507278297_702753.html

>
>> Clearly the Spanish central government are still using the style of
>> government taught to and by Churchill and Stalin.
>>
>
> No. They're playing a waiting game. That stuff on Sunday the 1st was
> orchestrated by extremists. The demonstration by a million anti-nobs in
> Barcelona the other day was much more representative of the underlying
> mood. As usual, the minority fuck everything up for the majority.
>
> Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time.
> Then it might kick off.


--
athel
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-10 16:25:34 UTC
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I wrote:

>> Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time. Then it might
>> kick off.
>
>

He's delayed it for an hour. Dunno what he's got planned.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
David Kleinecke
2017-10-10 18:06:05 UTC
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On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 9:25:37 AM UTC-7, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> >> Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time. Then it might
> >> kick off.
> >
> >
>
> He's delayed it for an hour. Dunno what he's got planned.

Out here in California we are watching carefully. We may
have to do a Califexit and we need to learn how.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 18:29:12 UTC
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On 2017-10-10 18:06:05 +0000, David Kleinecke said:

> On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 9:25:37 AM UTC-7, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> I wrote:
>>
>>>> Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time.
>>>> Then it might
>>>> kick off.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> He's delayed it for an hour. Dunno what he's got planned.
>
> Out here in California we are watching carefully. We may
> have to do a Califexit and we need to learn how.

Whatever you do, don't take Puigdemont as a model. He's talking as if
he has an overwhelming majority, but he hasn't.


--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-10 20:28:31 UTC
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Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2017-10-10 18:06:05 +0000, David Kleinecke said:
>
> > On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 9:25:37 AM UTC-7, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >> I wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time.
> >>>> Then it might
> >>>> kick off.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> He's delayed it for an hour. Dunno what he's got planned.
> >
> > Out here in California we are watching carefully. We may
> > have to do a Califexit and we need to learn how.
>
> Whatever you do, don't take Puigdemont as a model. He's talking as if
> he has an overwhelming majority, but he hasn't.

There wasn't an overwhelming majority for Brexit either,

Jan
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-11 10:19:10 UTC
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El 10/10/17 a las 22:28, J. J. Lodder escribió:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-10-10 18:06:05 +0000, David Kleinecke said:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 9:25:37 AM UTC-7, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>> I wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time.
>>>>>> Then it might
>>>>>> kick off.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He's delayed it for an hour. Dunno what he's got planned.
>>>
>>> Out here in California we are watching carefully. We may
>>> have to do a Califexit and we need to learn how.
>>
>> Whatever you do, don't take Puigdemont as a model. He's talking as if
>> he has an overwhelming majority, but he hasn't.
>
> There wasn't an overwhelming majority for Brexit either,

The Catalan government has a majority of about 38% I believe. They had to pact with the
anarchists to stay in power. Said anarchists have now said they're dropping support
because he dilly dallied yesterday. The "independentistas" are a much smaller minority.


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
LFS
2017-10-11 10:34:49 UTC
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On 11/10/2017 11:19, Paul Carmichael wrote:

> The Catalan government has a majority of about 38% I believe. They had
> to pact with the anarchists to stay in power.


Obaue: when did pact become a verb? New to me.



--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
occam
2017-10-11 10:42:47 UTC
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On 11/10/2017 12:34, LFS wrote:
> On 11/10/2017 11:19, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>> The Catalan government has a majority of about 38% I believe. They had
>> to pact with the anarchists to stay in power.
>
>
> Obaue: when did pact become a verb? New to me.
>
>

Oh, they verbed it longly ago. I heard it from Trump.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-10-11 13:21:47 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:42:47 +0200, occam <***@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>On 11/10/2017 12:34, LFS wrote:
>> On 11/10/2017 11:19, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>> The Catalan government has a majority of about 38% I believe. They had
>>> to pact with the anarchists to stay in power.
>>
>>
>> Obaue: when did pact become a verb? New to me.
>>
>>
>
>Oh, they verbed it longly ago. I heard it from Trump.

Ah. The bigly Corpus Trump.

OED:

1. trans. To agree to, conclude (something) with another party; to
enter into a pact with (a person).

1535 T. Cromwell in R. B. Merriman Life & Lett. T. Cromwell (1902)
II. 45 To pay the saide money..uppon suche conuenauntes as they
shal pacte condiscende and conclude.
....
1998 Hartford (Connecticut) Courant (Nexis) 29 July f5 Chief Al
Travis, thoughtfully pacted by John Spencer.

2. intr. To enter into a pact with another party; to bargain for a
thing.

1904 N.E.D. (at cited word) Pact,..to enter into a pact, bargain
(for a thing).
1940 Economist 6 Jan. 10/2 To-day Germany has pacted with
Communism, Italy is neutral, the West fights Germany.
....

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
CDB
2017-10-11 15:03:17 UTC
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On 10/11/2017 6:34 AM, LFS wrote:
> Paul Carmichael wrote:


>> The Catalan government has a majority of about 38% I believe. They
>> had to pact with the anarchists to stay in power.

> Obaue: when did pact become a verb? New to me.

Pace Occam, it looked strange to me too. Spanish has "pactar" (to
agree, conclude a deal).

http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=pactar
Richard Tobin
2017-10-10 19:18:46 UTC
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In article <***@mid.individual.net>,
Paul Carmichael <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>A group of people can't just steal part of a country.

Yes they can, it's called self-determination.

-- Richard
Lewis
2017-10-10 20:41:29 UTC
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In message <orj6em$25ap$***@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk> Richard Tobin <***@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <***@mid.individual.net>,
> Paul Carmichael <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>>A group of people can't just steal part of a country.

> Yes they can, it's called self-determination.

It's how every country in the world was created.

--
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
Paul Wolff
2017-10-11 09:57:34 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Oct 2017, Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> posted:
>In message <orj6em$25ap$***@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk> Richard Tobin
>> Paul Carmichael <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>A group of people can't just steal part of a country.
>
>> Yes they can, it's called self-determination.
>
>It's how every country in the world was created.
>
ObEnglish:

We use words including country, land, nation, state, without always
being clear (or even knowing) what we mean. International treaties seem
to prefer "state", which implies the people who are being legally
governed by one government together with the land they occupy. "Land"
(in English) probably means the geographical tract on a map that's
coloured in distinctly from all its next neighbours. After that, it gets
quite murky, and "country" is among the murkier words.

The question of who 'owns' a 'country' gets different answers from
different people with different interests. Globalisation, migration,
invasion, secession, revolution, ethnic cleansing, even inheritance - we
have a way to go yet.
--
Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-11 13:34:28 UTC
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El 11/10/17 a las 11:57, Paul Wolff escribió:
> Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)

Not sure I understand that. Neither the popping up nor the dot. Oh, maybe the full stop
after the name? Still stuck on the popping though.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
LFS
2017-10-11 13:38:20 UTC
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On 11/10/2017 14:34, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El 11/10/17 a las 11:57, Paul Wolff escribió:
>> Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
>
> Not sure I understand that. Neither the popping up nor the dot. Oh,
> maybe the full stop after the name? Still stuck on the popping though.
>

I think Mr W is suggesting that you are new hereabouts.

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 15:55:37 UTC
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On 2017-10-11 15:38:20 +0200, LFS <***@gmail.com> said:

> On 11/10/2017 14:34, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> El 11/10/17 a las 11:57, Paul Wolff escribió:
>>> Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
>>
>> Not sure I understand that. Neither the popping up nor the dot. Oh,
>> maybe the full stop after the name? Still stuck on the popping though.
>>
>
> I think Mr W is suggesting that you are new hereabouts.

Surely not. He's been here for ages.


--
athel
Paul Wolff
2017-10-11 13:55:56 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Oct 2017, Paul Carmichael <***@gmail.com> posted:
>El 11/10/17 a las 11:57, Paul Wolff escribió:
>> Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
>
>Not sure I understand that. Neither the popping up nor the dot. Oh,
>maybe the full stop after the name? Still stuck on the popping though.
>
It was Pablo until quite recently, wasn't it?
--
Paul
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-11 15:28:32 UTC
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El 11/10/17 a las 15:55, Paul Wolff escribió:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017, Paul Carmichael <***@gmail.com> posted:
>> El 11/10/17 a las 11:57, Paul Wolff escribió:
>>> Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
>>
>> Not sure I understand that. Neither the popping up nor the dot. Oh, maybe the full stop
>> after the name? Still stuck on the popping though.
>>
> It was Pablo until quite recently, wasn't it?

Indeed. For years I was "around" with a profile created for a Spanish group. Couldn't be
bothered to change, until the issue was forced by a change of newsreader.

So, if as has been suggested, the "popping up" refers to my newbieness, well yes, my
posting handle is relatively fresh.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-09 20:14:23 UTC
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Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>
> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> on you, he or she will walk out.

????
The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
by crushing them again and again and again
until the power to resist it had gone,

Jan
David Kleinecke
2017-10-09 21:34:05 UTC
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On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 1:14:25 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> > divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> > astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
> >
> > If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> > go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> > them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> > on you, he or she will walk out.
>
> ????
> The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
> by crushing them again and again and again
> until the power to resist it had gone,

Irish and Welsh yes. But technically the Scots took over
England and created the United Kingdom. There were, of
course, a few rebellions but I imagine they were UK
rebellions (replace George by Charlie) rather than
independence movements.
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-10 14:42:53 UTC
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David Kleinecke <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 1:14:25 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> > > divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> > > astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
> > >
> > > If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> > > go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> > > them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> > > on you, he or she will walk out.
> >
> > ????
> > The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
> > by crushing them again and again and again
> > until the power to resist it had gone,
>
> Irish and Welsh yes. But technically the Scots took over
> England and created the United Kingdom. There were, of
> course, a few rebellions but I imagine they were UK
> rebellions (replace George by Charlie) rather than
> independence movements.

By the same logic the Germans took over the United Kingdom after that,
(and the Netherlands too)

Jan
Harrison Hill
2017-10-10 06:42:49 UTC
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On Monday, 9 October 2017 21:14:25 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> > divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> > astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
> >
> > If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> > go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> > them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> > on you, he or she will walk out.
>
> ????
> The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
> by crushing them again and again and again
> until the power to resist it had gone,

That is a very strange thing to write. James I was Scottish,
Henry Tudor was Welsh. If Cromwell took Ireland by force, then
the Irish took it back again by force; beginning with the
1916 Easter Rising.

The UK is held together by consent. Wales, NI and Scotland have
devolved powers; a Scottish referendum recently gave the
Scottish people the right to decide. "The only way you can
remain in the EU, is to remain in the UK", was a slogan
if I remember correctly LOL.
Janet
2017-10-10 11:04:05 UTC
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In article <5bc26345-1c73-4be6-8ddc-***@googlegroups.com>,
***@gmail.com says...
> Subject: Re: OT: Catalonia
> From: Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
>
> On Monday, 9 October 2017 21:14:25 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > [quoted text muted]
> >
> > ????
> > The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
> > by crushing them again and again and again
> > until the power to resist it had gone,
>
> That is a very strange thing to write. James I was Scottish,
> Henry Tudor was Welsh. If Cromwell took Ireland by force, then
> the Irish took it back again by force; beginning with the
> 1916 Easter Rising.
>
> The UK is held together by consent. Wales, NI and Scotland have
> devolved powers; a Scottish referendum recently gave the
> Scottish people the right to decide. "The only way you can
> remain in the EU, is to remain in the UK", was a slogan
> if I remember correctly LOL.

You remember incorrectly, and have it completely back to front.

During Indyref, SNP leader Salmond's slogan was "A vote for
independence is now the ?only way? to ensure Scotland?s continued
membership of the European Union".


Janet.
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-10 14:42:57 UTC
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Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, 9 October 2017 21:14:25 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> > > divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> > > astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
> > >
> > > If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> > > go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> > > them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> > > on you, he or she will walk out.
> >
> > ????
> > The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
> > by crushing them again and again and again
> > until the power to resist it had gone,
>
> That is a very strange thing to write. James I was Scottish,
> Henry Tudor was Welsh. If Cromwell took Ireland by force, then
> the Irish took it back again by force; beginning with the
> 1916 Easter Rising.

Yes, and all of the United Kingdom is German nowadays.

> The UK is held together by consent. Wales, NI and Scotland have
> devolved powers; a Scottish referendum recently gave the
> Scottish people the right to decide. "The only way you can
> remain in the EU, is to remain in the UK", was a slogan
> if I remember correctly LOL.

Nowadays, yes, after the crushing had been done,
and accepted as a matter of fact.
You even have the 'crushing of those rebellious Scots' in your anthem,
and shortly after that song was popularised
the crushing was done rather thoroughly at Culloden.
After that Scotland no longer had the military power to resist,
so consent became inevitable,

Jan

And about your EU LOL: Remaining in the EU probably decided
the Scottish referendum.
And irony upon irony: The Spaniards had threatened to veto
an independent Scotland as EU member.
After Brexit the Spaniards agreed
that Scotland could remain in the EU after all.
And now they are counting on the EU to banish
an independent Catalonia.
We live in interesting times.
Harrison Hill
2017-10-11 17:45:14 UTC
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On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 15:43:00 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, 9 October 2017 21:14:25 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> > > > divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> > > > astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
> > > >
> > > > If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> > > > go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> > > > them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> > > > on you, he or she will walk out.
> > >
> > > ????
> > > The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
> > > by crushing them again and again and again
> > > until the power to resist it had gone,
> >
> > That is a very strange thing to write. James I was Scottish,
> > Henry Tudor was Welsh. If Cromwell took Ireland by force, then
> > the Irish took it back again by force; beginning with the
> > 1916 Easter Rising.
>
> Yes, and all of the United Kingdom is German nowadays.
>
> > The UK is held together by consent. Wales, NI and Scotland have
> > devolved powers; a Scottish referendum recently gave the
> > Scottish people the right to decide. "The only way you can
> > remain in the EU, is to remain in the UK", was a slogan
> > if I remember correctly LOL.
>
> Nowadays, yes, after the crushing had been done,
> and accepted as a matter of fact.
> You even have the 'crushing of those rebellious Scots' in your anthem,
> and shortly after that song was popularised
> the crushing was done rather thoroughly at Culloden.
> After that Scotland no longer had the military power to resist,
> so consent became inevitable,

The Highlanders defeated at Culloden were not "Scots"
as you seem to conceive them. They weren't the controlling
classes - those people sided with Cumberland. You should see
the 1964 film, which brings the full horror of that conflict
to life.

The Scots have fought off Romans, Saxons, and everyone else;
and they remain undefeated. They want their independence (many
of them), and it is to Britain's credit that we grant
independence to any country that wants it.

Hence you hold a referendum :)
Paul Wolff
2017-10-11 18:56:26 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Oct 2017, Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> posted:
>On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 15:43:00 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Monday, 9 October 2017 21:14:25 UTC+1, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> > > Harrison Hill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>> > > > divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>> > > > astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>> > > >
>> > > > If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>> > > > go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>> > > > them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>> > > > on you, he or she will walk out.
>> > >
>> > > ????
>> > > The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
>> > > by crushing them again and again and again
>> > > until the power to resist it had gone,
>> >
>> > That is a very strange thing to write. James I was Scottish,
>> > Henry Tudor was Welsh. If Cromwell took Ireland by force, then
>> > the Irish took it back again by force; beginning with the
>> > 1916 Easter Rising.
>>
>> Yes, and all of the United Kingdom is German nowadays.
>>
>> > The UK is held together by consent. Wales, NI and Scotland have
>> > devolved powers; a Scottish referendum recently gave the
>> > Scottish people the right to decide. "The only way you can
>> > remain in the EU, is to remain in the UK", was a slogan
>> > if I remember correctly LOL.
>>
>> Nowadays, yes, after the crushing had been done,
>> and accepted as a matter of fact.
>> You even have the 'crushing of those rebellious Scots' in your anthem,
>> and shortly after that song was popularised
>> the crushing was done rather thoroughly at Culloden.
>> After that Scotland no longer had the military power to resist,
>> so consent became inevitable,
>
>The Highlanders defeated at Culloden were not "Scots"
>as you seem to conceive them. They weren't the controlling
>classes - those people sided with Cumberland. You should see
>the 1964 film, which brings the full horror of that conflict
>to life.
>
>The Scots have fought off Romans, Saxons, and everyone else;
>and they remain undefeated. They want their independence (many
>of them), and it is to Britain's credit that we grant
>independence to any country that wants it.
>
>Hence you hold a referendum :)

But you can't give independence to a "country". You can only give
independence to "people". Then you settle down to terms-of-exit
negotiations, and demand to know first of all what price they are
willing to pay, before you will discuss anything else (because that's
your mandate, you say - price first, negotiation later: it's the
European way). If they come up with a big enough payment to cover your
original spending plans for the next several years, then you can offer
them independence as alien settlers on your land. If they say they want
the land too, then you can offer to sell it to them for a substantial
extra payment. It's quite a good business model.
--
Paul
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-09 21:31:22 UTC
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On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 12:05:43 PM UTC-4, Harrison Hill wrote:
> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>
> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> on you, he or she will walk out.
>
> We have Athel with his Spanish wife

Chile =/= Spain

(or have you just drifted in from the "Hispanic" thread?)

> to advise us on what
> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
occam
2017-10-10 08:34:13 UTC
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On 09/10/2017 18:05, the dimwit Harrison Hill wrote:

>
> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> on you, he or she will walk out.

You can delay the inevitable by threatening them (Scots), lying to them
(Welsh) or bribing them (The N. Irish).

> Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>

The EU are onlookers. It is worth noting here that the Catalan
initiative was re-kindled by Brexit. They (Catalans) will soon find out
the hard way that their move was a mistake. They only need to watch May,
Boris, Davis and the rest of the hapless Conservatives tear each other
apart.

P.S. Who else in his right mind still invokes Nigel Farage to notch a
point? One dimwit at least, by the looks of it. Eh, Harrison?
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-10-10 12:55:15 UTC
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On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>
>If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>on you, he or she will walk out.
>
>We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.

ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.

First two results from a Google search -

Business Insider UK edition:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/catalonia-split-spain-economic-impact-ing-2017-9

LONDON — If the Spanish region of Catalonia breaks away from Spain
in a so-called Catalexit, it would plunge the region into a long
period of uncertainty and could end up having negative effects that
"proportionally exceed" those of Brexit, according to the Dutch bank
ING.

And of course there is the Twitter hastag #Catalexit:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/catalexit?lang=en


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 18:31:52 UTC
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On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:

> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>
>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>
>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>
> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
> Catalonia from Spain.

"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>
> First two results from a Google search -
>
> Business Insider UK edition:
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/catalonia-split-spain-economic-impact-ing-2017-9
>
> LONDON — If the Spanish region of Catalonia breaks away from Spain
> in a so-called Catalexit, it would plunge the region into a long
> period of uncertainty and could end up having negative effects that
> "proportionally exceed" those of Brexit, according to the Dutch bank
> ING.
>
> And of course there is the Twitter hastag #Catalexit:
> https://twitter.com/hashtag/catalexit?lang=en


--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-10-10 19:06:09 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>
>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>>
>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>>
>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>> Catalonia from Spain.
>
>"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.

And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
"Cattlexit".

>> First two results from a Google search -
>>
>> Business Insider UK edition:
>> http://uk.businessinsider.com/catalonia-split-spain-economic-impact-ing-2017-9
>>
>> LONDON — If the Spanish region of Catalonia breaks away from Spain
>> in a so-called Catalexit, it would plunge the region into a long
>> period of uncertainty and could end up having negative effects that
>> "proportionally exceed" those of Brexit, according to the Dutch bank
>> ING.
>>
>> And of course there is the Twitter hastag #Catalexit:
>> https://twitter.com/hashtag/catalexit?lang=en

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-10 21:11:02 UTC
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On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 1:06:17 PM UTC-6, PeterWD wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
> >On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
> >
> >> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
> >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> >>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> >>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
> >>>
> >>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> >>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> >>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> >>> on you, he or she will walk out.
> >>>
> >>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
> >>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
> >>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
> >>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
> >>
> >> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
> >> Catalonia from Spain.
> >
> >"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>
> And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
> "Cattlexit".

Which in turn should be confused with catalexis,"the absence of a
syllable at the beginning or end of a line of metrical verse resulting
in an incomplete foot, most often occurring in the last foot at the
end of a verse; a catalectic line." (dictionary.com)

I think "last foot at the end" is redundant.

Ending with a catalexis
Leaves you with a catalect.
Leaving with a Catalexit
Ends oppressive rule... correct?

--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 06:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-10 21:11:02 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:

> On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 1:06:17 PM UTC-6, PeterWD wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>>>>
>>>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>>>> Catalonia from Spain.
>>>
>>> "Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>>
>> And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
>> "Cattlexit".
>
> Which in turn should be confused with catalexis,"the absence of a
> syllable at the beginning or end of a line of metrical verse resulting
> in an incomplete foot, most often occurring in the last foot at the
> end of a verse; a catalectic line." (dictionary.com)
>
> I think "last foot at the end" is redundant.
>
> Ending with a catalexis
> Leaves you with a catalect.
> Leaving with a Catalexit
> Ends oppressive rule... correct?

No, not correct, because since the return to democracy 40 years ago
central authority over Catalonia has been anything but oppressive. The
Catalans have been given everything they wanted, and they have more
autonomy than any other region. I expect Paul will agree.


--
athel
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-11 10:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
El 11/10/17 a las 08:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:
> On 2017-10-10 21:11:02 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:

>> Ending with a catalexis
>> Leaves you with a catalect.
>> Leaving with a Catalexit
>> Ends oppressive rule... correct?
>
> No, not correct, because since the return to democracy 40 years ago central authority over
> Catalonia has been anything but oppressive. The Catalans have been given everything they
> wanted, and they have more autonomy than any other region. I expect Paul will agree.
>
>

Indeed I do. As would anyone who knows and is honest. Zapatero gave in to all their
demands. The kids in school don't even have to learn Spanish any more. And shops that put
signs up in Spanish get fined.

Crazy. The separatists (sp?) have clearly stated that they believe themselves to be
genetically superior and they feel more French than Spanish.

They also believe that they pay more taxes than any other region.

I haven't listened to the Government response yet. They were due to have a panic meeting
this morning.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 16:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-11 12:25:38 +0200, Paul Carmichael <***@gmail.com> said:

> El 11/10/17 a las 08:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:
>> On 2017-10-10 21:11:02 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
>
>>> Ending with a catalexis
>>> Leaves you with a catalect.
>>> Leaving with a Catalexit
>>> Ends oppressive rule... correct?
>>
>> No, not correct, because since the return to democracy 40 years ago
>> central authority over Catalonia has been anything but oppressive. The
>> Catalans have been given everything they wanted, and they have more
>> autonomy than any other region. I expect Paul will agree.
>>
>>
>
> Indeed I do. As would anyone who knows and is honest. Zapatero gave in
> to all their demands. The kids in school don't even have to learn
> Spanish any more.

and one sees the results. All the Spanish Catalans of my acquaintance
speak perfect Spanish. (The French Catalans speak perfect French, but
they mostly don't speak Catalan.*) Their children and grandchildren
don't. What they think they're gaining by dropping one of the world's
major languages is a mystery to me. I'll try to find a tactful way of
asking our Catalan friends when we're in Barcelona in ten days' time.

*When we stopped in Collioure on the way to Valencia a couple of years
ago I asked the receptionist in the hotel if many many people in
Collioure could speak, or even understand, Catalan, she said probably
not.


> And shops that put signs up in Spanish get fined.
>
> Crazy. The separatists (sp?) have clearly stated that they believe
> themselves to be genetically superior and they feel more French than
> Spanish.
>
> They also believe that they pay more taxes than any other region.
>
> I haven't listened to the Government response yet. They were due to
> have a panic meeting this morning.


--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-12 11:50:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 2017-10-11 12:25:38 +0200, Paul Carmichael <***@gmail.com> said:
>
> > El 11/10/17 a las 08:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:
> >> On 2017-10-10 21:11:02 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
> >
> >>> Ending with a catalexis
> >>> Leaves you with a catalect.
> >>> Leaving with a Catalexit
> >>> Ends oppressive rule... correct?
> >>
> >> No, not correct, because since the return to democracy 40 years ago
> >> central authority over Catalonia has been anything but oppressive. The
> >> Catalans have been given everything they wanted, and they have more
> >> autonomy than any other region. I expect Paul will agree.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Indeed I do. As would anyone who knows and is honest. Zapatero gave in
> > to all their demands. The kids in school don't even have to learn
> > Spanish any more.
>
> and one sees the results. All the Spanish Catalans of my acquaintance
> speak perfect Spanish. (The French Catalans speak perfect French, but
> they mostly don't speak Catalan.*) Their children and grandchildren
> don't. What they think they're gaining by dropping one of the world's
> major languages is a mystery to me. I'll try to find a tactful way of
> asking our Catalan friends when we're in Barcelona in ten days' time.
>
> *When we stopped in Collioure on the way to Valencia a couple of years
> ago I asked the receptionist in the hotel if many many people in
> Collioure could speak, or even understand, Catalan, she said probably
> not.

The Roussillion has been French for over 300 years.
The French are perhaps the best in Frenchifying conquered regions,
and in forcing the extinction of native languages there.
It's just the same on the opposite side, with the departement Nord.
(another narrow triangular strip)

Jan
Jack Campin
2017-10-11 23:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[Catalonia]
> The kids in school don't even have to learn Spanish any more.

Why should they? It's not all that useful. (Expecting them to
learn at least one of Spanish, French or English would be no bad
thing, though).


> And shops that put signs up in Spanish get fined.

There were so many of them in Barcelona when I was last there that
I don't believe you. This sounds like a Castilian version of the
Daily Mail's xenophobic urban-legend-mongering.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-12 08:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
El 12/10/17 a las 01:53, Jack Campin escribió:
> [Catalonia]
>> The kids in school don't even have to learn Spanish any more.
>
> Why should they? It's not all that useful. (Expecting them to
> learn at least one of Spanish, French or English would be no bad
> thing, though).
>
>
>> And shops that put signs up in Spanish get fined.
>
> There were so many of them in Barcelona when I was last there that
> I don't believe you. This sounds like a Castilian version of the
> Daily Mail's xenophobic urban-legend-mongering.

<marks thread "ignore">

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-11 09:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Peter Duncanson [BrE] <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
> >On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
> >
> >> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
> >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> >>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> >>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
> >>>
> >>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> >>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> >>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> >>> on you, he or she will walk out.
> >>>
> >>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
> >>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
> >>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
> >>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
> >>
> >> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
> >> Catalonia from Spain.
> >
> >"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>
> And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
> "Cattlexit".

Quite right, if the sheeple voted for it,

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-11 22:17:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 3:52:26 AM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Peter Duncanson [BrE] <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> > <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >
> > >On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
...

> > >> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
> > >> Catalonia from Spain.
> > >
> > >"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
> >
> > And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
> > "Cattlexit".
>
> Quite right, if the sheeple voted for it,

We'll see who the scapegoat will be.

--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-12 09:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 3:52:26 AM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Peter Duncanson [BrE] <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> > > <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
> ...
>
> > > >> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
> > > >> Catalonia from Spain.
> > > >
> > > >"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
> > >
> > > And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
> > > "Cattlexit".
> >
> > Quite right, if the sheeple voted for it,
>
> We'll see who the scapegoat will be.

Whoever it is will be lionised in the desert,

Jan
John Dunlop
2017-10-12 11:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
J. J. Lodder:

> Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 3:52:26 AM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> > Peter Duncanson [BrE] <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> > > <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>> ...
>>
>> > > >> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>> > > >> Catalonia from Spain.
>> > > >
>> > > >"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>> > >
>> > > And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
>> > > "Cattlexit".
>> >
>> > Quite right, if the sheeple voted for it,
>>
>> We'll see who the scapegoat will be.
>
> Whoever it is will be lionised in the desert,

Get too close and that big cat'll own ya!

--
John
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-12 14:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
John Dunlop <***@ymail.com> wrote:

> J. J. Lodder:
>
> > Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 3:52:26 AM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> > Peter Duncanson [BrE] <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> >> > > <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
> >> ...
> >>
> >> > > >> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
> >> > > >> Catalonia from Spain.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
> >> > >
> >> > > And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
> >> > > "Cattlexit".
> >> >
> >> > Quite right, if the sheeple voted for it,
> >>
> >> We'll see who the scapegoat will be.
> >
> > Whoever it is will be lionised in the desert,
>
> Get too close and that big cat'll own ya!

Cat got my tongue. Bravo!

Jan
Lewis
2017-10-10 20:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:

>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>
>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>>
>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>>
>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>> Catalonia from Spain.

> "Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.

For Spain?

Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.


--
Wonderful girl! Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like
her.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 06:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-10 20:41:00 +0000, Lewis said:

> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>
>>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>>
>>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>>>
>>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>>>
>>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>>> Catalonia from Spain.
>
>> "Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>
> For Spain?
>
> Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.

So the last 40 years don't count?


--
athel
Lewis
2017-10-11 19:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2017-10-10 20:41:00 +0000, Lewis said:

>> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>> On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>>
>>>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>>>>
>>>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>>>> Catalonia from Spain.
>>
>>> "Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>>
>> For Spain?
>>
>> Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.

> So the last 40 years don't count?

Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
improvement.

--
And now, the rest of the story
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 20:24:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-11 19:39:06 +0000, Lewis said:

> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2017-10-10 20:41:00 +0000, Lewis said:
>
>>> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>> On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>>>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>>>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>>>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>>>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>>>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>>>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>>>>>
>>>>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>>>>> Catalonia from Spain.
>>>
>>>> "Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>>>
>>> For Spain?
>>>
>>> Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
>
>> So the last 40 years don't count?
>
> Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
> improvement.

And your basis for that statement is ... ?


--
athel
Lewis
2017-10-12 02:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2017-10-11 19:39:06 +0000, Lewis said:

>> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>> On 2017-10-10 20:41:00 +0000, Lewis said:
>>
>>>> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>>>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>>>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>>>>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>>>>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>>>>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>>>>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>>>>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>>>>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>>>>>> Catalonia from Spain.
>>>>
>>>>> "Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> For Spain?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
>>
>>> So the last 40 years don't count?
>>
>> Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
>> improvement.

> And your basis for that statement is ... ?

The desire to leave Spain, the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. and the fact that the unrest about being part of
Spain has been going on for generations and doesn't appear to have
abated. I recall when the Olympics where in Barcelona there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain, and that was 25
years ago.

(The single greatest torch lighting ceremony in Olympic history)


--
Someone's behind this. Someone wants to see a war. [...] I've got to
remember that. This isn't a war. This is a crime. --Jingo
Quinn C
2017-10-12 18:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
* Lewis:

>>> Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
>>> improvement.
>
> [...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
> other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
> lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain

Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
expected.

> (The single greatest torch lighting ceremony in Olympic history)

Oh yes, I remember it well.

--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-12 20:34:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 2:03:31 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Lewis:

> > [...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
> > other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
> > lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
>
> Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
> expected.

Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
Jack Campin
2017-10-12 22:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
>>> [...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
>>> other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
>>> lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
>> Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
>> expected.
> Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?

You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-13 03:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 10/12/17 4:51 PM, Jack Campin wrote:
>>>> [...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
>>>> other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
>>>> lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
>>> Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
>>> expected.
>> Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
>
> You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.

That's crazed.

--
Jerry Friedman
Janet
2017-10-13 10:33:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <orpav8$q54$***@news.albasani.net>, ***@yahoo.com
says...
>
> On 10/12/17 4:51 PM, Jack Campin wrote:
> >>>> [...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
> >>>> other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
> >>>> lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
> >>> Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
> >>> expected.
> >> Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
> >
> > You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.
>
> That's crazed.

Storm in a teacup.

Janet
Whiskers
2017-10-15 13:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-13, Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 10/12/17 4:51 PM, Jack Campin wrote:
>>>>> [...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
>>>>> other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
>>>>> lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
>>>> Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
>>>> expected.
>>> Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
>>
>> You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.
>
> That's crazed.

She beetles about, sounding like a green pot but pretending to be a
swallow or a flower.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Quinn C
2017-10-13 04:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
* Jack Campin:

>>>> [...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
>>>> other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
>>>> lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
>>> Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
>>> expected.
>> Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
>
> You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.

By the way, happy feast of St. Chelidonia!

--
'Ah yes, we got that keyboard from Small Gods when they threw out
their organ. Unfortunately for complex theological reasons they
would only give us the white keys, so we can only program in C'.
Colin Fine in sci.lang
RH Draney
2017-10-13 12:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 10/12/2017 9:12 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jack Campin:
>
>>>>> [...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
>>>>> other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
>>>>> lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
>>>> Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
>>>> expected.
>>> Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
>>
>> You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.
>
> By the way, happy feast of St. Chelidonia!

What makes your big head so hard?...r
Mack A. Damia
2017-10-13 15:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 05:34:46 -0700, RH Draney <***@cox.net>
wrote:

>On 10/12/2017 9:12 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Jack Campin:
>>
>>>>>> [...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
>>>>>> other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
>>>>>> lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
>>>>> Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
>>>>> expected.
>>>> Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
>>>
>>> You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.
>>
>> By the way, happy feast of St. Chelidonia!
>
>What makes your big head so hard?...r

Jordan's paean?
Sam Plusnet
2017-10-12 20:46:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 12-Oct-17 3:14, Lewis wrote:

>
> (The single greatest torch lighting ceremony in Olympic history)
>
>
Trump speaks well of Charlottesville.

--
Sam Plusnet
occam
2017-10-12 23:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 12/10/2017 04:14, Lewis wrote:

>
> (The single greatest torch lighting ceremony in Olympic history)
>

Olympic history ain't over yet. Best add "so far..."
Cheryl
2017-10-11 22:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-11 5:09 PM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2017-10-10 20:41:00 +0000, Lewis said:
>
>>> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>> On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>>>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>>>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>>>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>>>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>>>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>>>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>>>>>
>>>>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>>>>> Catalonia from Spain.
>>>
>>>> "Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>>>
>>> For Spain?
>>>
>>> Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
>
>> So the last 40 years don't count?
>
> Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
> improvement.
>

Well...from what I've read, most of Catalonia didn't express an opinion
in the recent vote.

--
Cheryl

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-12 11:50:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> > On 2017-10-10 20:41:00 +0000, Lewis said:
>
> >> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
> >> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >>> On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
> >>
> >>>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
> >>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
> >>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
> >>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
> >>>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
> >>>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
> >>>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
> >>>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
> >>>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
> >>>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
> >>>>
> >>>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
> >>>> Catalonia from Spain.
> >>
> >>> "Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
> >>
> >> For Spain?
> >>
> >> Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
>
> > So the last 40 years don't count?
>
> Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
> improvement.

The problems are more with Spain than with Catalonia, imho.
While Catalonia is more or less modern Spain has never really
gotten over its Franquist inheritance.
The present troubles wouldn't have occurred, I think,
if Spain hadn't elected the Partido Popular into power.
(with its openly Falangist inheritance)

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-12 17:15:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-12 11:50:33 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>>> On 2017-10-10 20:41:00 +0000, Lewis said:
>>
>>>> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>>>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>>>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>>>>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>>>>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>>>>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>>>>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>>>>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>>>>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>>>>>> Catalonia from Spain.
>>>>
>>>>> "Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> For Spain?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
>>
>>> So the last 40 years don't count?
>>
>> Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
>> improvement.
>
> The problems are more with Spain than with Catalonia, imho.

Not so h I suspect.

> While Catalonia is more or less modern Spain has never really
> gotten over its Franquist inheritance.

In the 21st century I've been to meetings in Barcelona, Bilbao, Oviedo
(in the north), Madrid, Valencia (in the middle), Granada, Seville,
Córdoba, Tenerife (in the south), and I haven't noticed Barcelona being
so much more modern than the others. 20 years ago Puerto de la Cruz in
Tenerife still had an Avenida del Generalísimo Francisco Franco, but
not any more.

> The present troubles wouldn't have occurred, I think,
> if Spain hadn't elected the Partido Popular into power.
> (with its openly Falangist inheritance)

Rajoy certainly would not have been my choice of leader to steer Spain
through the present problems.

--
athel
Quinn C
2017-10-12 18:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
* Athel Cornish-Bowden:

> On 2017-10-12 11:50:33 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
>> Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>>>> On 2017-10-10 20:41:00 +0000, Lewis said:
>>>
>>>>> In message <***@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2017-10-10 12:55:15 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
>>>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
>>>>>>>> divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
>>>>>>>> astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
>>>>>>>> go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
>>>>>>>> them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
>>>>>>>> on you, he or she will walk out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
>>>>>>>> happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
>>>>>>>> enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
>>>>>>>> split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
>>>>>>> Catalonia from Spain.
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
>>>>>
>>>>> For Spain?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
>>>
>>>> So the last 40 years don't count?
>>>
>>> Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
>>> improvement.
>>
>> The problems are more with Spain than with Catalonia, imho.
>
> Not so h I suspect.

I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
independence.

But given (European) history, the feeling is still quite
understandable, and I'm more shocked at the forcefulness of the
Spanish reaction, and the stiff legalistic reasoning - even more
surprised that not only politicians, but even ordinary citizens
bring it up in interviews.

Independence processes are hard to formalize, because every case
is so different, so it's normal that a country doesn't have a
process in place on how to proceed on it - but that also makes it
a political rather than a legal question. Ruling out independence
categorically on the basis of the constitution is too reminiscent
of Turkey, rather than a modern democracy.

It should have been quite enough for the Spanish government to
state that they don't regard the outcome of a referendum as
binding without such an agreement in advance. Maybe it's as my
colleague said: you'd need confidence to do that.

--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-13 13:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-12 20:00:03 +0200, Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> said:

> [ ... ]

> I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
> current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
> a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
> independence.

"Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
short time.



--
athel
Quinn C
2017-10-13 17:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
* Athel Cornish-Bowden:

> On 2017-10-12 20:00:03 +0200, Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> said:
>
>> [ ... ]
>
>> I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
>> current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
>> a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
>> independence.
>
> "Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
> Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
> Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
> bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
> and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
> short time.

Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.

The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.

--
...an explanatory principle - like "gravity" or "instinct" -
really explains nothing. It’s a sort of conventional agreement
between scientists to stop trying to explain things at a
certain point. -- Gregory Bateson
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-13 18:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-13 17:43:31 +0000, Quinn C said:

> * Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>
>> On 2017-10-12 20:00:03 +0200, Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> said:
>>
>>> [ ... ]
>>
>>> I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
>>> current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
>>> a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
>>> independence.
>>
>> "Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
>> Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
>> Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
>> bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
>> and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
>> short time.
>
> Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
> difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
> Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
> independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
>
> The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
> city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
> multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.

In addition, Singapore is overwhelmingly Chinese (probably more
accurately Cantonese) whereas they form a much smaller proportion of
the population of Malaya.

From what you say Montreal may resemble Barcelona, in which only about
25% of the population favour independence. They're of course the ones
who'll suffer from the departure of the banks and other big companies
-- as of course happened in Montreal 40 years ago.



--
athel
Tak To
2017-10-14 04:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 10/13/2017 2:56 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2017-10-13 17:43:31 +0000, Quinn C said:
>
>> * Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>>
>>> On 2017-10-12 20:00:03 +0200, Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> said:
>>>
>>>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>>> I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
>>>> current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
>>>> a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
>>>> independence.
>>>
>>> "Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
>>> Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
>>> Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
>>> bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
>>> and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
>>> short time.
>>
>> Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
>> difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
>> Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
>> independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
>>
>> The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
>> city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
>> multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
>
> In addition, Singapore is overwhelmingly Chinese (probably more
> accurately Cantonese)

The Cantonese are actually a minority. The break down by lingustic
groups of the Chinese population in Singapore is as follows: Minnan
(South Min in the Fujian Province) - 41%, Chaozhou/Teochow (South Min
in the Guangdong Province) - 21%, Yue ("Cantonese") - 15%, Hakka - 9%,
Hainan (another Min language/dialect spoken in the Hainan Province)
- 6.7%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Singapore

> whereas they form a much smaller proportion of
> the population of Malaya.

The population of Malaysia is still around 25% Chinese, down
from close to 40% shortly after the war. Singapore is 75%
Chinese.

The Chinese population reside mainly in the larger cities. Kuala
Lumpur is about 45% Chinese (down from 60% shortly after the
war), so is Ipoh. Georgetown (Penang) is 55% Chinese.

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_Chinese

I suspected that shortly after the war, the difference between
Singapore and Kuala Lumpur was smaller than that is today.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Whiskers
2017-10-15 13:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-10-13, Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2017-10-13 17:43:31 +0000, Quinn C said:
>
>> * Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>>
>>> On 2017-10-12 20:00:03 +0200, Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> said:
>>>
>>>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>>> I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
>>>> current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
>>>> a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
>>>> independence.
>>>
>>> "Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
>>> Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
>>> Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
>>> bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
>>> and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
>>> short time.
>>
>> Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
>> difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
>> Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
>> independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
>>
>> The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
>> city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
>> multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
>
> In addition, Singapore is overwhelmingly Chinese (probably more
> accurately Cantonese) whereas they form a much smaller proportion of
> the population of Malaya.
>
> From what you say Montreal may resemble Barcelona, in which only about
> 25% of the population favour independence. They're of course the ones
> who'll suffer from the departure of the banks and other big companies
> -- as of course happened in Montreal 40 years ago.

Similar thinking has prompted some discussion of the idea that London
should secede from the UK to stay in the EU when (if) Brexit happens.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Wolff
2017-10-13 21:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 13 Oct 2017, Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> posted:
>* Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>> On 2017-10-12 20:00:03 +0200, Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> said:
>>
>>> I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
>>> current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
>>> a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
>>> independence.
>>
>> "Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
>> Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
>> Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
>> bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
>> and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
>> short time.
>
>Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
>difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
>Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
>independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
>
>The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
>city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
>multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
>
A tongue-in-cheek article by Henry Mance in the FT ten days ago:

"I can feel it in my bones, I can almost touch it — the Independent
Republic of London. It’s an idea whose time has surely come." Etc.
<https://www.ft.com/content/80282496-97a8-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b> but it
may not be available to the casual visitor.

--
Paul
Peter Moylan
2017-10-14 01:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 14/10/17 08:42, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2017, Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> posted:
>> * Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>>> On 2017-10-12 20:00:03 +0200, Quinn C
>>> <***@crommatograph.info> said:
>>>
>>>> I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
>>>> current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
>>>> a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
>>>> independence.
>>>
>>> "Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
>>> Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
>>> Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
>>> bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
>>> and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
>>> short time.
>>
>> Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
>> difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
>> Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
>> independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
>>
>> The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
>> city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
>> multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
>>
> A tongue-in-cheek article by Henry Mance in the FT ten days ago:
>
> "I can feel it in my bones, I can almost touch it — the Independent
> Republic of London. It’s an idea whose time has surely come." Etc.
> <https://www.ft.com/content/80282496-97a8-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b> but it
> may not be available to the casual visitor.

There have been proposals for years that the Hunter Valley -- which is
basically Newcastle plus its hinterland, stretching inland for quite a
distance -- should secede from the state of New South Wales. The main
argument for this is that the Hunter Valley is a major wealth producer,
but the wealth flows into Sydney and does not come back again.

Similar complaints can, however, be found all around the state. For this
reason, I have suggested that NSW be broken up into two states, one
called NSW and the other called Sydney.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
b***@shaw.ca
2017-10-14 02:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 6:14:29 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 14/10/17 08:42, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Oct 2017, Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> posted:
> >> * Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> >>> On 2017-10-12 20:00:03 +0200, Quinn C
> >>> <***@crommatograph.info> said:
> >>>
> >>>> I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
> >>>> current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
> >>>> a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
> >>>> independence.
> >>>
> >>> "Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
> >>> Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
> >>> Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
> >>> bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
> >>> and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
> >>> short time.
> >>
> >> Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
> >> difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
> >> Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
> >> independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
> >>
> >> The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
> >> city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
> >> multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
> >>
> > A tongue-in-cheek article by Henry Mance in the FT ten days ago:
> >
> > "I can feel it in my bones, I can almost touch it — the Independent
> > Republic of London. It’s an idea whose time has surely come." Etc.
> > <https://www.ft.com/content/80282496-97a8-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b> but it
> > may not be available to the casual visitor.
>
> There have been proposals for years that the Hunter Valley -- which is
> basically Newcastle plus its hinterland, stretching inland for quite a
> distance -- should secede from the state of New South Wales. The main
> argument for this is that the Hunter Valley is a major wealth producer,
> but the wealth flows into Sydney and does not come back again.
>
> Similar complaints can, however, be found all around the state. For this
> reason, I have suggested that NSW be broken up into two states, one
> called NSW and the other called Sydney.
>
As long as the people who control capital do their business in the city, they will continue to exploit the hinterland's resources. Changing the political divisions isn't going to change that.

bill
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