Discussion:
OT: Catalonia
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Harrison Hill
2017-10-09 16:05:41 UTC
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As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.

If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.

We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-09 17:40:01 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
...

I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
English would say "Catalan" in English, /'k&***@l&n/ ("CATtle Ann"),
instead of attempting Spanish.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-09 18:53:12 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
...
I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
instead of attempting Spanish.
I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
than on the first, but otherwise very similar.

What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?
--
athel
Garrett Wollman
2017-10-09 19:08:44 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
instead of attempting Spanish.
I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
than on the first, but otherwise very similar.
What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?
/kat@'lan/ or /kata'lan/ (with the /a/ ~ /A/ and /t/ realized
variously according to native-English dialect). The same people often
pronounce the region /kat@'lUnj@/ rather than the 5-syllable
traditional English /k&t@'loUni@/. For a British (Scottish) example,
see Rachel McCormack.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-09 21:57:42 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
instead of attempting Spanish.
I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
than on the first, but otherwise very similar.
Though in Catalan there's no /n/, right? I haven't heard that in English.
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?
variously according to native-English dialect).
Exactly.
Post by Garrett Wollman
The same people often
see Rachel McCormack.
I don't remember hearing that, but I don't hear all that many people
talking about the subject.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jack Campin
2017-10-09 22:11:38 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
British (Scottish) example, see Rachel McCormack.
I don't remember hearing that, but I don't hear all that many
people talking about the subject.
You'll be hearing a lot more now.

What I'm getting from Catalan independence activists recently
is that they prefer to use "Catalonia" with English speakers.
I have been to a couple of demos for it and followed a fair bit
of on-line discussion, and "Catalunya" is hardly used at all in
English any more. It's possibly a disavowal of terminological
self-righteousness, in which case I'm all for it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 05:38:40 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
Post by Jerry Friedman
British (Scottish) example, see Rachel McCormack.
I don't remember hearing that, but I don't hear all that many
people talking about the subject.
You'll be hearing a lot more now.
What I'm getting from Catalan independence activists recently
is that they prefer to use "Catalonia" with English speakers.
It was probably 20 years ago when my daughter, then a teenager,
corrected me for saying Cataluña in English. She told me I should say
Catalonia.
Post by Jack Campin
I have been to a couple of demos for it and followed a fair bit
of on-line discussion, and "Catalunya" is hardly used at all in
English any more. It's possibly a disavowal of terminological
self-righteousness, in which case I'm all for it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-10 12:49:20 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
Post by Jerry Friedman
British (Scottish) example, see Rachel McCormack.
I don't remember hearing that, but I don't hear all that many
people talking about the subject.
You'll be hearing a lot more now.
I certainly have been for the last few weeks, but "a lot more" is still
not a lot for me, partly because I don't /hear/ a lot of news. So far I
haven't heard Catalan independence come up in conversation.
Post by Jack Campin
What I'm getting from Catalan independence activists recently
is that they prefer to use "Catalonia" with English speakers.
I have been to a couple of demos for it and followed a fair bit
of on-line discussion, and "Catalunya" is hardly used at all in
English any more. It's possibly a disavowal of terminological
self-righteousness, in which case I'm all for it.
I'm all for that one, anyway.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 05:35:54 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
instead of attempting Spanish.
I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
than on the first, but otherwise very similar.
Though in Catalan there's no /n/, right?
Yes, you're right.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I haven't heard that in English.
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?
variously according to native-English dialect).
Exactly.
Post by Garrett Wollman
The same people often
see Rachel McCormack.
I don't remember hearing that, but I don't hear all that many people
talking about the subject.
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-10 12:51:58 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
...
I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
instead of attempting Spanish.
I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
than on the first, but otherwise very similar.
What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?
Here's an example from yesterday evening.

http://www.npr.org/2017/10/09/556701132/after-catalonias-independence-vote-many-spaniards-rally-behind-their-government
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 14:04:12 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
...
I'll take advantage of this to wish native English speakers speaking
instead of attempting Spanish.
I don't remember hearing it pronounced in English other than in the way
you advocate. It doesn't sound all that different in Spanish (or
Catalan, for that latter) anyway: stress on the last syllable rather
than on the first, but otherwise very similar.
What do people say when they're attempting Spanish?
Here's an example from yesterday evening.
http://www.npr.org/2017/10/09/556701132/after-catalonias-independence-vote-many-spaniards-rally-behind-their-government
I'll
try that on my portable at home, but I don't get any sound recordings
from it on this computer.

"Spanish flags suddenly adorn Madrid balconies. Many Spaniards are
rallying behind their government as it cracks down on Catalonia's
independence push. Some accuse Catalonia of threatening democracy."

A nice bit of ambiguity in the the last sentence: are they suggesting
that Catalonia will introduce democracy or threaten its existence?

When I was 7 to 12 I lived in a house called Catalone. At the time it
was just the name of a house, but long after I asked my aunt why it was
called that and she said tha Catalone was a place in Cape Breton Island
where my grandfather went fishing. Only much later still did I wonder
if its name had anything to do with Catalonia. Wikipedia informs me
that it was named after a French cartographer called Gédéon de
Catalogne, so the connection with Catalonia seems remote.
--
athel
Whiskers
2017-10-09 19:27:11 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
Clearly the Spanish central government are still using the style of
government taught to and by Churchill and Stalin.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-10 07:36:59 UTC
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Post by Whiskers
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
A group of people can't just steal part of a country.
Post by Whiskers
Post by Harrison Hill
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
Farridge is an idiot. It wasn't mishandled.
Post by Whiskers
Clearly the Spanish central government are still using the style of
government taught to and by Churchill and Stalin.
No. They're playing a waiting game. That stuff on Sunday the 1st was orchestrated by
extremists. The demonstration by a million anti-nobs in Barcelona the other day was much
more representative of the underlying mood. As usual, the minority fuck everything up for
the majority.

Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time. Then it might kick
off.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
Bob Martin
2017-10-10 08:09:08 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Whiskers
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
A group of people can't just steal part of a country.
Who owns "a part of a country"? The people who live and work there
or a bunch of politicians, most representing people who live elsewhere?
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Whiskers
Post by Harrison Hill
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
Farridge is an idiot. It wasn't mishandled.
Post by Whiskers
Clearly the Spanish central government are still using the style of
government taught to and by Churchill and Stalin.
No. They're playing a waiting game. That stuff on Sunday the 1st was orchestrated by
extremists. The demonstration by a million anti-nobs in Barcelona the other day was much
more representative of the underlying mood. As usual, the minority fuck everything up for
the majority.
Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time. Then it might kick
off.
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-10 08:31:03 UTC
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Post by Bob Martin
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
A group of people can't just steal part of a country.
Who owns "a part of a country"? The people who live and work there
or a bunch of politicians, most representing people who live elsewhere?
The country as a whole. It's called democracy.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 08:15:01 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Whiskers
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
A group of people can't just steal part of a country.
Post by Whiskers
Post by Harrison Hill
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
Farridge is an idiot. It wasn't mishandled.
I wonder if HH has realized that many of the so-called pictures of
police violence were faked or did not refer to Barcelona on 1st
October. See

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/06/inenglish/1507278297_702753.html
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Whiskers
Clearly the Spanish central government are still using the style of
government taught to and by Churchill and Stalin.
No. They're playing a waiting game. That stuff on Sunday the 1st was
orchestrated by extremists. The demonstration by a million anti-nobs in
Barcelona the other day was much more representative of the underlying
mood. As usual, the minority fuck everything up for the majority.
Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time.
Then it might kick off.
--
athel
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-10 16:25:34 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time. Then it might
kick off.
He's delayed it for an hour. Dunno what he's got planned.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
David Kleinecke
2017-10-10 18:06:05 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Paul Carmichael
Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time. Then it might
kick off.
He's delayed it for an hour. Dunno what he's got planned.
Out here in California we are watching carefully. We may
have to do a Califexit and we need to learn how.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 18:29:12 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Paul Carmichael
Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time. Then it might
kick off.
He's delayed it for an hour. Dunno what he's got planned.
Out here in California we are watching carefully. We may
have to do a Califexit and we need to learn how.
Whatever you do, don't take Puigdemont as a model. He's talking as if
he has an overwhelming majority, but he hasn't.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-10 20:28:31 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Paul Carmichael
Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time.
Then it might
kick off.
He's delayed it for an hour. Dunno what he's got planned.
Out here in California we are watching carefully. We may
have to do a Califexit and we need to learn how.
Whatever you do, don't take Puigdemont as a model. He's talking as if
he has an overwhelming majority, but he hasn't.
There wasn't an overwhelming majority for Brexit either,

Jan
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-11 10:19:10 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Paul Carmichael
Puigdemont is set to declare independence this afternoon at 6 our time.
Then it might
kick off.
He's delayed it for an hour. Dunno what he's got planned.
Out here in California we are watching carefully. We may
have to do a Califexit and we need to learn how.
Whatever you do, don't take Puigdemont as a model. He's talking as if
he has an overwhelming majority, but he hasn't.
There wasn't an overwhelming majority for Brexit either,
The Catalan government has a majority of about 38% I believe. They had to pact with the
anarchists to stay in power. Said anarchists have now said they're dropping support
because he dilly dallied yesterday. The "independentistas" are a much smaller minority.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
LFS
2017-10-11 10:34:49 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
The Catalan government has a majority of about 38% I believe. They had
to pact with the anarchists to stay in power.
Obaue: when did pact become a verb? New to me.
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
occam
2017-10-11 10:42:47 UTC
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Post by LFS
Post by Paul Carmichael
The Catalan government has a majority of about 38% I believe. They had
to pact with the anarchists to stay in power.
Obaue: when did pact become a verb? New to me.
Oh, they verbed it longly ago. I heard it from Trump.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-10-11 13:21:47 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by LFS
Post by Paul Carmichael
The Catalan government has a majority of about 38% I believe. They had
to pact with the anarchists to stay in power.
Obaue: when did pact become a verb? New to me.
Oh, they verbed it longly ago. I heard it from Trump.
Ah. The bigly Corpus Trump.

OED:

1. trans. To agree to, conclude (something) with another party; to
enter into a pact with (a person).

1535 T. Cromwell in R. B. Merriman Life & Lett. T. Cromwell (1902)
II. 45 To pay the saide money..uppon suche conuenauntes as they
shal pacte condiscende and conclude.
....
1998 Hartford (Connecticut) Courant (Nexis) 29 July f5 Chief Al
Travis, thoughtfully pacted by John Spencer.

2. intr. To enter into a pact with another party; to bargain for a
thing.

1904 N.E.D. (at cited word) Pact,..to enter into a pact, bargain
(for a thing).
1940 Economist 6 Jan. 10/2 To-day Germany has pacted with
Communism, Italy is neutral, the West fights Germany.
....
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
CDB
2017-10-11 15:03:17 UTC
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Post by LFS
Post by Paul Carmichael
The Catalan government has a majority of about 38% I believe. They
had to pact with the anarchists to stay in power.
Obaue: when did pact become a verb? New to me.
Pace Occam, it looked strange to me too. Spanish has "pactar" (to
agree, conclude a deal).

http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=pactar
Richard Tobin
2017-10-10 19:18:46 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
A group of people can't just steal part of a country.
Yes they can, it's called self-determination.

-- Richard
Lewis
2017-10-10 20:41:29 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Paul Carmichael
A group of people can't just steal part of a country.
Yes they can, it's called self-determination.
It's how every country in the world was created.
--
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
Paul Wolff
2017-10-11 09:57:34 UTC
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Post by Lewis
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Paul Carmichael
A group of people can't just steal part of a country.
Yes they can, it's called self-determination.
It's how every country in the world was created.
ObEnglish:

We use words including country, land, nation, state, without always
being clear (or even knowing) what we mean. International treaties seem
to prefer "state", which implies the people who are being legally
governed by one government together with the land they occupy. "Land"
(in English) probably means the geographical tract on a map that's
coloured in distinctly from all its next neighbours. After that, it gets
quite murky, and "country" is among the murkier words.

The question of who 'owns' a 'country' gets different answers from
different people with different interests. Globalisation, migration,
invasion, secession, revolution, ethnic cleansing, even inheritance - we
have a way to go yet.
--
Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-11 13:34:28 UTC
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Post by Paul Wolff
Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
Not sure I understand that. Neither the popping up nor the dot. Oh, maybe the full stop
after the name? Still stuck on the popping though.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
LFS
2017-10-11 13:38:20 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Paul Wolff
Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
Not sure I understand that. Neither the popping up nor the dot. Oh,
maybe the full stop after the name? Still stuck on the popping though.
I think Mr W is suggesting that you are new hereabouts.
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 15:55:37 UTC
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Post by LFS
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Paul Wolff
Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
Not sure I understand that. Neither the popping up nor the dot. Oh,
maybe the full stop after the name? Still stuck on the popping though.
I think Mr W is suggesting that you are new hereabouts.
Surely not. He's been here for ages.
--
athel
Paul Wolff
2017-10-11 13:55:56 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Paul Wolff
Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
Not sure I understand that. Neither the popping up nor the dot. Oh,
maybe the full stop after the name? Still stuck on the popping though.
It was Pablo until quite recently, wasn't it?
--
Paul
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-11 15:28:32 UTC
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Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Paul Wolff
Paul (not the one who's popped up here with a distinguishing dot)
Not sure I understand that. Neither the popping up nor the dot. Oh, maybe the full stop
after the name? Still stuck on the popping though.
It was Pablo until quite recently, wasn't it?
Indeed. For years I was "around" with a profile created for a Spanish group. Couldn't be
bothered to change, until the issue was forced by a change of newsreader.

So, if as has been suggested, the "popping up" refers to my newbieness, well yes, my
posting handle is relatively fresh.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-09 20:14:23 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
????
The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
by crushing them again and again and again
until the power to resist it had gone,

Jan
David Kleinecke
2017-10-09 21:34:05 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
????
The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
by crushing them again and again and again
until the power to resist it had gone,
Irish and Welsh yes. But technically the Scots took over
England and created the United Kingdom. There were, of
course, a few rebellions but I imagine they were UK
rebellions (replace George by Charlie) rather than
independence movements.
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-10 14:42:53 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
????
The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
by crushing them again and again and again
until the power to resist it had gone,
Irish and Welsh yes. But technically the Scots took over
England and created the United Kingdom. There were, of
course, a few rebellions but I imagine they were UK
rebellions (replace George by Charlie) rather than
independence movements.
By the same logic the Germans took over the United Kingdom after that,
(and the Netherlands too)

Jan
Harrison Hill
2017-10-10 06:42:49 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
????
The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
by crushing them again and again and again
until the power to resist it had gone,
That is a very strange thing to write. James I was Scottish,
Henry Tudor was Welsh. If Cromwell took Ireland by force, then
the Irish took it back again by force; beginning with the
1916 Easter Rising.

The UK is held together by consent. Wales, NI and Scotland have
devolved powers; a Scottish referendum recently gave the
Scottish people the right to decide. "The only way you can
remain in the EU, is to remain in the UK", was a slogan
if I remember correctly LOL.
Janet
2017-10-10 11:04:05 UTC
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Subject: Re: OT: Catalonia
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
[quoted text muted]
????
The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
by crushing them again and again and again
until the power to resist it had gone,
That is a very strange thing to write. James I was Scottish,
Henry Tudor was Welsh. If Cromwell took Ireland by force, then
the Irish took it back again by force; beginning with the
1916 Easter Rising.
The UK is held together by consent. Wales, NI and Scotland have
devolved powers; a Scottish referendum recently gave the
Scottish people the right to decide. "The only way you can
remain in the EU, is to remain in the UK", was a slogan
if I remember correctly LOL.
You remember incorrectly, and have it completely back to front.

During Indyref, SNP leader Salmond's slogan was "A vote for
independence is now the ?only way? to ensure Scotland?s continued
membership of the European Union".


Janet.
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-10 14:42:57 UTC
Reply
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Post by Harrison Hill
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
????
The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
by crushing them again and again and again
until the power to resist it had gone,
That is a very strange thing to write. James I was Scottish,
Henry Tudor was Welsh. If Cromwell took Ireland by force, then
the Irish took it back again by force; beginning with the
1916 Easter Rising.
Yes, and all of the United Kingdom is German nowadays.
Post by Harrison Hill
The UK is held together by consent. Wales, NI and Scotland have
devolved powers; a Scottish referendum recently gave the
Scottish people the right to decide. "The only way you can
remain in the EU, is to remain in the UK", was a slogan
if I remember correctly LOL.
Nowadays, yes, after the crushing had been done,
and accepted as a matter of fact.
You even have the 'crushing of those rebellious Scots' in your anthem,
and shortly after that song was popularised
the crushing was done rather thoroughly at Culloden.
After that Scotland no longer had the military power to resist,
so consent became inevitable,

Jan

And about your EU LOL: Remaining in the EU probably decided
the Scottish referendum.
And irony upon irony: The Spaniards had threatened to veto
an independent Scotland as EU member.
After Brexit the Spaniards agreed
that Scotland could remain in the EU after all.
And now they are counting on the EU to banish
an independent Catalonia.
We live in interesting times.
Harrison Hill
2017-10-11 17:45:14 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
????
The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
by crushing them again and again and again
until the power to resist it had gone,
That is a very strange thing to write. James I was Scottish,
Henry Tudor was Welsh. If Cromwell took Ireland by force, then
the Irish took it back again by force; beginning with the
1916 Easter Rising.
Yes, and all of the United Kingdom is German nowadays.
Post by Harrison Hill
The UK is held together by consent. Wales, NI and Scotland have
devolved powers; a Scottish referendum recently gave the
Scottish people the right to decide. "The only way you can
remain in the EU, is to remain in the UK", was a slogan
if I remember correctly LOL.
Nowadays, yes, after the crushing had been done,
and accepted as a matter of fact.
You even have the 'crushing of those rebellious Scots' in your anthem,
and shortly after that song was popularised
the crushing was done rather thoroughly at Culloden.
After that Scotland no longer had the military power to resist,
so consent became inevitable,
The Highlanders defeated at Culloden were not "Scots"
as you seem to conceive them. They weren't the controlling
classes - those people sided with Cumberland. You should see
the 1964 film, which brings the full horror of that conflict
to life.

The Scots have fought off Romans, Saxons, and everyone else;
and they remain undefeated. They want their independence (many
of them), and it is to Britain's credit that we grant
independence to any country that wants it.

Hence you hold a referendum :)
Paul Wolff
2017-10-11 18:56:26 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
????
The Scots, Irish and Welsh only got into the UK
by crushing them again and again and again
until the power to resist it had gone,
That is a very strange thing to write. James I was Scottish,
Henry Tudor was Welsh. If Cromwell took Ireland by force, then
the Irish took it back again by force; beginning with the
1916 Easter Rising.
Yes, and all of the United Kingdom is German nowadays.
Post by Harrison Hill
The UK is held together by consent. Wales, NI and Scotland have
devolved powers; a Scottish referendum recently gave the
Scottish people the right to decide. "The only way you can
remain in the EU, is to remain in the UK", was a slogan
if I remember correctly LOL.
Nowadays, yes, after the crushing had been done,
and accepted as a matter of fact.
You even have the 'crushing of those rebellious Scots' in your anthem,
and shortly after that song was popularised
the crushing was done rather thoroughly at Culloden.
After that Scotland no longer had the military power to resist,
so consent became inevitable,
The Highlanders defeated at Culloden were not "Scots"
as you seem to conceive them. They weren't the controlling
classes - those people sided with Cumberland. You should see
the 1964 film, which brings the full horror of that conflict
to life.
The Scots have fought off Romans, Saxons, and everyone else;
and they remain undefeated. They want their independence (many
of them), and it is to Britain's credit that we grant
independence to any country that wants it.
Hence you hold a referendum :)
But you can't give independence to a "country". You can only give
independence to "people". Then you settle down to terms-of-exit
negotiations, and demand to know first of all what price they are
willing to pay, before you will discuss anything else (because that's
your mandate, you say - price first, negotiation later: it's the
European way). If they come up with a big enough payment to cover your
original spending plans for the next several years, then you can offer
them independence as alien settlers on your land. If they say they want
the land too, then you can offer to sell it to them for a substantial
extra payment. It's quite a good business model.
--
Paul
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-09 21:31:22 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife
Chile =/= Spain

(or have you just drifted in from the "Hispanic" thread?)
Post by Harrison Hill
to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
occam
2017-10-10 08:34:13 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Harrison Hill
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
You can delay the inevitable by threatening them (Scots), lying to them
(Welsh) or bribing them (The N. Irish).
Post by Harrison Hill
Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
The EU are onlookers. It is worth noting here that the Catalan
initiative was re-kindled by Brexit. They (Catalans) will soon find out
the hard way that their move was a mistake. They only need to watch May,
Boris, Davis and the rest of the hapless Conservatives tear each other
apart.

P.S. Who else in his right mind still invokes Nigel Farage to notch a
point? One dimwit at least, by the looks of it. Eh, Harrison?
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-10-10 12:55:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.

First two results from a Google search -

Business Insider UK edition:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/catalonia-split-spain-economic-impact-ing-2017-9

LONDON — If the Spanish region of Catalonia breaks away from Spain
in a so-called Catalexit, it would plunge the region into a long
period of uncertainty and could end up having negative effects that
"proportionally exceed" those of Brexit, according to the Dutch bank
ING.

And of course there is the Twitter hastag #Catalexit:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/catalexit?lang=en
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-10 18:31:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
First two results from a Google search -
http://uk.businessinsider.com/catalonia-split-spain-economic-impact-ing-2017-9
LONDON — If the Spanish region of Catalonia breaks away from Spain
in a so-called Catalexit, it would plunge the region into a long
period of uncertainty and could end up having negative effects that
"proportionally exceed" those of Brexit, according to the Dutch bank
ING.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/catalexit?lang=en
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-10-10 19:06:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
"Cattlexit".
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
First two results from a Google search -
http://uk.businessinsider.com/catalonia-split-spain-economic-impact-ing-2017-9
LONDON — If the Spanish region of Catalonia breaks away from Spain
in a so-called Catalexit, it would plunge the region into a long
period of uncertainty and could end up having negative effects that
"proportionally exceed" those of Brexit, according to the Dutch bank
ING.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/catalexit?lang=en
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-10 21:11:02 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
"Cattlexit".
Which in turn should be confused with catalexis,"the absence of a
syllable at the beginning or end of a line of metrical verse resulting
in an incomplete foot, most often occurring in the last foot at the
end of a verse; a catalectic line." (dictionary.com)

I think "last foot at the end" is redundant.

Ending with a catalexis
Leaves you with a catalect.
Leaving with a Catalexit
Ends oppressive rule... correct?
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 06:36:11 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
"Cattlexit".
Which in turn should be confused with catalexis,"the absence of a
syllable at the beginning or end of a line of metrical verse resulting
in an incomplete foot, most often occurring in the last foot at the
end of a verse; a catalectic line." (dictionary.com)
I think "last foot at the end" is redundant.
Ending with a catalexis
Leaves you with a catalect.
Leaving with a Catalexit
Ends oppressive rule... correct?
No, not correct, because since the return to democracy 40 years ago
central authority over Catalonia has been anything but oppressive. The
Catalans have been given everything they wanted, and they have more
autonomy than any other region. I expect Paul will agree.
--
athel
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-11 10:25:38 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Ending with a catalexis
Leaves you with a catalect.
Leaving with a Catalexit
Ends oppressive rule... correct?
No, not correct, because since the return to democracy 40 years ago central authority over
Catalonia has been anything but oppressive. The Catalans have been given everything they
wanted, and they have more autonomy than any other region. I expect Paul will agree.
Indeed I do. As would anyone who knows and is honest. Zapatero gave in to all their
demands. The kids in school don't even have to learn Spanish any more. And shops that put
signs up in Spanish get fined.

Crazy. The separatists (sp?) have clearly stated that they believe themselves to be
genetically superior and they feel more French than Spanish.

They also believe that they pay more taxes than any other region.

I haven't listened to the Government response yet. They were due to have a panic meeting
this morning.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 16:04:05 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Ending with a catalexis
Leaves you with a catalect.
Leaving with a Catalexit
Ends oppressive rule... correct?
No, not correct, because since the return to democracy 40 years ago
central authority over Catalonia has been anything but oppressive. The
Catalans have been given everything they wanted, and they have more
autonomy than any other region. I expect Paul will agree.
Indeed I do. As would anyone who knows and is honest. Zapatero gave in
to all their demands. The kids in school don't even have to learn
Spanish any more.
and one sees the results. All the Spanish Catalans of my acquaintance
speak perfect Spanish. (The French Catalans speak perfect French, but
they mostly don't speak Catalan.*) Their children and grandchildren
don't. What they think they're gaining by dropping one of the world's
major languages is a mystery to me. I'll try to find a tactful way of
asking our Catalan friends when we're in Barcelona in ten days' time.

*When we stopped in Collioure on the way to Valencia a couple of years
ago I asked the receptionist in the hotel if many many people in
Collioure could speak, or even understand, Catalan, she said probably
not.
Post by Paul Carmichael
And shops that put signs up in Spanish get fined.
Crazy. The separatists (sp?) have clearly stated that they believe
themselves to be genetically superior and they feel more French than
Spanish.
They also believe that they pay more taxes than any other region.
I haven't listened to the Government response yet. They were due to
have a panic meeting this morning.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-12 11:50:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Ending with a catalexis
Leaves you with a catalect.
Leaving with a Catalexit
Ends oppressive rule... correct?
No, not correct, because since the return to democracy 40 years ago
central authority over Catalonia has been anything but oppressive. The
Catalans have been given everything they wanted, and they have more
autonomy than any other region. I expect Paul will agree.
Indeed I do. As would anyone who knows and is honest. Zapatero gave in
to all their demands. The kids in school don't even have to learn
Spanish any more.
and one sees the results. All the Spanish Catalans of my acquaintance
speak perfect Spanish. (The French Catalans speak perfect French, but
they mostly don't speak Catalan.*) Their children and grandchildren
don't. What they think they're gaining by dropping one of the world's
major languages is a mystery to me. I'll try to find a tactful way of
asking our Catalan friends when we're in Barcelona in ten days' time.
*When we stopped in Collioure on the way to Valencia a couple of years
ago I asked the receptionist in the hotel if many many people in
Collioure could speak, or even understand, Catalan, she said probably
not.
The Roussillion has been French for over 300 years.
The French are perhaps the best in Frenchifying conquered regions,
and in forcing the extinction of native languages there.
It's just the same on the opposite side, with the departement Nord.
(another narrow triangular strip)

Jan
Jack Campin
2017-10-11 23:53:49 UTC
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[Catalonia]
Post by Paul Carmichael
The kids in school don't even have to learn Spanish any more.
Why should they? It's not all that useful. (Expecting them to
learn at least one of Spanish, French or English would be no bad
thing, though).
Post by Paul Carmichael
And shops that put signs up in Spanish get fined.
There were so many of them in Barcelona when I was last there that
I don't believe you. This sounds like a Castilian version of the
Daily Mail's xenophobic urban-legend-mongering.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-12 08:59:14 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
[Catalonia]
Post by Paul Carmichael
The kids in school don't even have to learn Spanish any more.
Why should they? It's not all that useful. (Expecting them to
learn at least one of Spanish, French or English would be no bad
thing, though).
Post by Paul Carmichael
And shops that put signs up in Spanish get fined.
There were so many of them in Barcelona when I was last there that
I don't believe you. This sounds like a Castilian version of the
Daily Mail's xenophobic urban-legend-mongering.
<marks thread "ignore">
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-11 09:52:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
"Cattlexit".
Quite right, if the sheeple voted for it,

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-11 22:17:04 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
"Cattlexit".
Quite right, if the sheeple voted for it,
We'll see who the scapegoat will be.
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-12 09:37:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
"Cattlexit".
Quite right, if the sheeple voted for it,
We'll see who the scapegoat will be.
Whoever it is will be lionised in the desert,

Jan
John Dunlop
2017-10-12 11:58:31 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
"Cattlexit".
Quite right, if the sheeple voted for it,
We'll see who the scapegoat will be.
Whoever it is will be lionised in the desert,
Get too close and that big cat'll own ya!
--
John
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-12 14:02:50 UTC
Reply
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Post by John Dunlop
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:31:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
And it should be confused with an outward Moo-vement of animals
"Cattlexit".
Quite right, if the sheeple voted for it,
We'll see who the scapegoat will be.
Whoever it is will be lionised in the desert,
Get too close and that big cat'll own ya!
Cat got my tongue. Bravo!

Jan
Lewis
2017-10-10 20:41:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
For Spain?

Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
--
Wonderful girl! Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like
her.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 06:36:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
For Spain?
Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
So the last 40 years don't count?
--
athel
Lewis
2017-10-11 19:39:06 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
For Spain?
Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
So the last 40 years don't count?
Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
improvement.
--
And now, the rest of the story
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 20:24:21 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
For Spain?
Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
So the last 40 years don't count?
Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
improvement.
And your basis for that statement is ... ?
--
athel
Lewis
2017-10-12 02:14:13 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
For Spain?
Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
So the last 40 years don't count?
Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
improvement.
And your basis for that statement is ... ?
The desire to leave Spain, the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. and the fact that the unrest about being part of
Spain has been going on for generations and doesn't appear to have
abated. I recall when the Olympics where in Barcelona there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain, and that was 25
years ago.

(The single greatest torch lighting ceremony in Olympic history)
--
Someone's behind this. Someone wants to see a war. [...] I've got to
remember that. This isn't a war. This is a crime. --Jingo
Quinn C
2017-10-12 18:03:29 UTC
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Post by Lewis
Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
improvement.
[...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
expected.
(The single greatest torch lighting ceremony in Olympic history)
Oh yes, I remember it well.
--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-12 20:34:08 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
[...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
expected.
Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
Jack Campin
2017-10-12 22:51:13 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
[...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
expected.
Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-13 03:12:39 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
[...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
expected.
Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.
That's crazed.
--
Jerry Friedman
Janet
2017-10-13 10:33:06 UTC
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In article <orpav8$q54$***@news.albasani.net>, ***@yahoo.com
says...
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
[...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
expected.
Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.
That's crazed.
Storm in a teacup.

Janet
Whiskers
2017-10-15 13:52:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
[...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
expected.
Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.
That's crazed.
She beetles about, sounding like a green pot but pretending to be a
swallow or a flower.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Quinn C
2017-10-13 04:12:50 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
[...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
expected.
Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.
By the way, happy feast of St. Chelidonia!
--
'Ah yes, we got that keyboard from Small Gods when they threw out
their organ. Unfortunately for complex theological reasons they
would only give us the white keys, so we can only program in C'.
Colin Fine in sci.lang
RH Draney
2017-10-13 12:34:46 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
[...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
expected.
Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.
By the way, happy feast of St. Chelidonia!
What makes your big head so hard?...r
Mack A. Damia
2017-10-13 15:52:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
[...] the higher taxes Caladonia pays compared to
other parts of Spain. [...] there was quite a
lot of news about Catolonia wanting to part with Spain
Well, if all three of them become independent, mixups are to be
expected.
Can Scottish and Spanish taxes really be compared, though?
You'd expect the cracks to show eventually in Celadonia.
By the way, happy feast of St. Chelidonia!
What makes your big head so hard?...r
Jordan's paean?
Sam Plusnet
2017-10-12 20:46:41 UTC
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Post by Lewis
(The single greatest torch lighting ceremony in Olympic history)
Trump speaks well of Charlottesville.
--
Sam Plusnet
occam
2017-10-12 23:21:57 UTC
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Post by Lewis
(The single greatest torch lighting ceremony in Olympic history)
Olympic history ain't over yet. Best add "so far..."
Cheryl
2017-10-11 22:09:30 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
For Spain?
Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
So the last 40 years don't count?
Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
improvement.
Well...from what I've read, most of Catalonia didn't express an opinion
in the recent vote.
--
Cheryl

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
J. J. Lodder
2017-10-12 11:50:33 UTC
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Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
For Spain?
Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
So the last 40 years don't count?
Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
improvement.
The problems are more with Spain than with Catalonia, imho.
While Catalonia is more or less modern Spain has never really
gotten over its Franquist inheritance.
The present troubles wouldn't have occurred, I think,
if Spain hadn't elected the Partido Popular into power.
(with its openly Falangist inheritance)

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-12 17:15:18 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
For Spain?
Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
So the last 40 years don't count?
Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
improvement.
The problems are more with Spain than with Catalonia, imho.
Not so h I suspect.
Post by J. J. Lodder
While Catalonia is more or less modern Spain has never really
gotten over its Franquist inheritance.
In the 21st century I've been to meetings in Barcelona, Bilbao, Oviedo
(in the north), Madrid, Valencia (in the middle), Granada, Seville,
Córdoba, Tenerife (in the south), and I haven't noticed Barcelona being
so much more modern than the others. 20 years ago Puerto de la Cruz in
Tenerife still had an Avenida del Generalísimo Francisco Franco, but
not any more.
Post by J. J. Lodder
The present troubles wouldn't have occurred, I think,
if Spain hadn't elected the Partido Popular into power.
(with its openly Falangist inheritance)
Rajoy certainly would not have been my choice of leader to steer Spain
through the present problems.
--
athel
Quinn C
2017-10-12 18:00:03 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
As an avid Hemingway reader, I know how bitter the
divisions in Spain have been - but us Brits are nevertheless
astonished at what is playing out so close to home.
If the Scots or the Welsh or the Northern Irish want to
go their own way from the UK, how can we possibly prevent
them? What would be the point? If a partner wants to walk out
on you, he or she will walk out.
We have Athel with his Spanish wife to advise us on what
happens next. Nigel Farage equates the mishandled "law
enforcement" a week ago with the "Easter Rising", which
split up the UK. Poor showing from the EU (Occam) eh wot.
ObAUE: The word "Catalexit" is being used for the possible exit of
Catalonia from Spain.
"Catastrophe" seems more appropriate.
For Spain?
Maybe, but Spain has been oppressing that region for half a millennium.
So the last 40 years don't count?
Most of Catalonia doesn't think the last 40 years have been much of an
improvement.
The problems are more with Spain than with Catalonia, imho.
Not so h I suspect.
I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
independence.

But given (European) history, the feeling is still quite
understandable, and I'm more shocked at the forcefulness of the
Spanish reaction, and the stiff legalistic reasoning - even more
surprised that not only politicians, but even ordinary citizens
bring it up in interviews.

Independence processes are hard to formalize, because every case
is so different, so it's normal that a country doesn't have a
process in place on how to proceed on it - but that also makes it
a political rather than a legal question. Ruling out independence
categorically on the basis of the constitution is too reminiscent
of Turkey, rather than a modern democracy.

It should have been quite enough for the Spanish government to
state that they don't regard the outcome of a referendum as
binding without such an agreement in advance. Maybe it's as my
colleague said: you'd need confidence to do that.
--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-13 13:07:58 UTC
Reply
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[ ... ]
I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
independence.
"Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
short time.
--
athel
Quinn C
2017-10-13 17:43:31 UTC
Reply
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
independence.
"Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
short time.
Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.

The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
--
...an explanatory principle - like "gravity" or "instinct" -
really explains nothing. It’s a sort of conventional agreement
between scientists to stop trying to explain things at a
certain point. -- Gregory Bateson
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-13 18:56:12 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
independence.
"Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
short time.
Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
In addition, Singapore is overwhelmingly Chinese (probably more
accurately Cantonese) whereas they form a much smaller proportion of
the population of Malaya.

From what you say Montreal may resemble Barcelona, in which only about
25% of the population favour independence. They're of course the ones
who'll suffer from the departure of the banks and other big companies
-- as of course happened in Montreal 40 years ago.
--
athel
Tak To
2017-10-14 04:14:27 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
independence.
"Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
short time.
Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
In addition, Singapore is overwhelmingly Chinese (probably more
accurately Cantonese)
The Cantonese are actually a minority. The break down by lingustic
groups of the Chinese population in Singapore is as follows: Minnan
(South Min in the Fujian Province) - 41%, Chaozhou/Teochow (South Min
in the Guangdong Province) - 21%, Yue ("Cantonese") - 15%, Hakka - 9%,
Hainan (another Min language/dialect spoken in the Hainan Province)
- 6.7%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Singapore
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
whereas they form a much smaller proportion of
the population of Malaya.
The population of Malaysia is still around 25% Chinese, down
from close to 40% shortly after the war. Singapore is 75%
Chinese.

The Chinese population reside mainly in the larger cities. Kuala
Lumpur is about 45% Chinese (down from 60% shortly after the
war), so is Ipoh. Georgetown (Penang) is 55% Chinese.

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_Chinese

I suspected that shortly after the war, the difference between
Singapore and Kuala Lumpur was smaller than that is today.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Whiskers
2017-10-15 13:55:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
independence.
"Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
short time.
Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
In addition, Singapore is overwhelmingly Chinese (probably more
accurately Cantonese) whereas they form a much smaller proportion of
the population of Malaya.
From what you say Montreal may resemble Barcelona, in which only about
25% of the population favour independence. They're of course the ones
who'll suffer from the departure of the banks and other big companies
-- as of course happened in Montreal 40 years ago.
Similar thinking has prompted some discussion of the idea that London
should secede from the UK to stay in the EU when (if) Brexit happens.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Wolff
2017-10-13 21:42:28 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
independence.
"Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
short time.
Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
A tongue-in-cheek article by Henry Mance in the FT ten days ago:

"I can feel it in my bones, I can almost touch it — the Independent
Republic of London. It’s an idea whose time has surely come." Etc.
<https://www.ft.com/content/80282496-97a8-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b> but it
may not be available to the casual visitor.
--
Paul
Peter Moylan
2017-10-14 01:14:23 UTC
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Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Quinn C
On 2017-10-12 20:00:03 +0200, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
independence.
"Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
short time.
Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
"I can feel it in my bones, I can almost touch it — the Independent
Republic of London. It’s an idea whose time has surely come." Etc.
<https://www.ft.com/content/80282496-97a8-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b> but it
may not be available to the casual visitor.
There have been proposals for years that the Hunter Valley -- which is
basically Newcastle plus its hinterland, stretching inland for quite a
distance -- should secede from the state of New South Wales. The main
argument for this is that the Hunter Valley is a major wealth producer,
but the wealth flows into Sydney and does not come back again.

Similar complaints can, however, be found all around the state. For this
reason, I have suggested that NSW be broken up into two states, one
called NSW and the other called Sydney.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
b***@shaw.ca
2017-10-14 02:07:34 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Quinn C
On 2017-10-12 20:00:03 +0200, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
I'm generally not much in favor of splitting up countries in the
current world. I quite liked it when a German journalist warned of
a "Singaporization" with regards to the monetary arguments for
independence.
"Singaporization" is not a good choice of word, because although
Singapore is small its attachment to Malaya as two components of
Malaysia was an artificial marriage in the first place (no doubt some
bureaucrats in London who'd never been to either looked at a world map
and thought it would be a good idea), and divorce followed within a
short time.
Although it's not an artificial marriage per se, the cultural
difference between Montreal and the rest of Quebec is vast.
Therefore, it has been suggested that in case of Quebec
independence, Montreal should opt for independence from Quebec.
The situation seems similar to Singapore/Malaysia: there is the
city/countryside difference, much exacerbated by the city being
multi-ethnic and multi-lingual.
"I can feel it in my bones, I can almost touch it — the Independent
Republic of London. It’s an idea whose time has surely come." Etc.
<https://www.ft.com/content/80282496-97a8-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b> but it
may not be available to the casual visitor.
There have been proposals for years that the Hunter Valley -- which is
basically Newcastle plus its hinterland, stretching inland for quite a
distance -- should secede from the state of New South Wales. The main
argument for this is that the Hunter Valley is a major wealth producer,
but the wealth flows into Sydney and does not come back again.
Similar complaints can, however, be found all around the state. For this
reason, I have suggested that NSW be broken up into two states, one
called NSW and the other called Sydney.
As long as the people who control capital do their business in the city, they will continue to exploit the hinterland's resources. Changing the political divisions isn't going to change that.

bill
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