Discussion:
What makes "cement" become "concrete"?
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Harrison Hill
2017-08-03 06:36:18 UTC
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We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".

<Loading Image...>

When does "cement" become "concrete"? A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
cage. A concrete pumper looks like this:

<Loading Image...>

Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 07:35:39 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.jpe
g>
Post by Harrison Hill
When does "cement" become "concrete"?
Never. The cement is the binder.
Concrete is binder plus filling material, such as pebble or grit.
Post by Harrison Hill
A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
You never use concrete between bricks, always mortar.
The point of having a flexible mortar is that the mason
can align the bricks accurately.
Having relatively big filler material in the mortar
it will spoil that,

Jan
Harrison Hill
2017-08-03 07:49:12 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.jpe
g>
Post by Harrison Hill
When does "cement" become "concrete"?
Never. The cement is the binder.
Concrete is binder plus filling material, such as pebble or grit.
Post by Harrison Hill
A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
You never use concrete between bricks, always mortar.
The point of having a flexible mortar is that the mason
can align the bricks accurately.
Having relatively big filler material in the mortar
it will spoil that,
I expect lots of different jargon to be in use, in the
different corners of the English speaking world. I know
what you mean by "mason" and brickwork is "masonry" in
my BrE. A "mason" however is a "stone mason", carving
stone, rather than a "bricklayer", who lays bricks.
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 08:23:41 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414
.jpe
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by J. J. Lodder
g>
Post by Harrison Hill
When does "cement" become "concrete"?
Never. The cement is the binder.
Concrete is binder plus filling material, such as pebble or grit.
Post by Harrison Hill
A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
You never use concrete between bricks, always mortar.
The point of having a flexible mortar is that the mason
can align the bricks accurately.
Having relatively big filler material in the mortar
it will spoil that,
I expect lots of different jargon to be in use, in the
different corners of the English speaking world. I know
what you mean by "mason" and brickwork is "masonry" in
my BrE. A "mason" however is a "stone mason", carving
stone, rather than a "bricklayer", who lays bricks.
Perhaps, but as you say, usage varies.
If you google 'mason' in images
(skipping all the freemasonry related nonsense)
all you get is masons laying bricks in mortar,
and none attacking stone with a chisel,

Jan
RH Draney
2017-08-03 12:06:57 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
I expect lots of different jargon to be in use, in the
different corners of the English speaking world. I know
what you mean by "mason" and brickwork is "masonry" in
my BrE. A "mason" however is a "stone mason", carving
stone, rather than a "bricklayer", who lays bricks.
Perhaps, but as you say, usage varies.
If you google 'mason' in images
(skipping all the freemasonry related nonsense)
all you get is masons laying bricks in mortar,
and none attacking stone with a chisel,
To see the other pictures you need to know the secret handshake....r
Mack A. Damia
2017-08-03 15:36:11 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
I expect lots of different jargon to be in use, in the
different corners of the English speaking world. I know
what you mean by "mason" and brickwork is "masonry" in
my BrE. A "mason" however is a "stone mason", carving
stone, rather than a "bricklayer", who lays bricks.
Perhaps, but as you say, usage varies.
If you google 'mason' in images
(skipping all the freemasonry related nonsense)
all you get is masons laying bricks in mortar,
and none attacking stone with a chisel,
To see the other pictures you need to know the secret handshake....r
Pull my finger.
James Wilkinson Sword
2017-08-05 21:19:36 UTC
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Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
I expect lots of different jargon to be in use, in the
different corners of the English speaking world. I know
what you mean by "mason" and brickwork is "masonry" in
my BrE. A "mason" however is a "stone mason", carving
stone, rather than a "bricklayer", who lays bricks.
Perhaps, but as you say, usage varies.
If you google 'mason' in images
(skipping all the freemasonry related nonsense)
all you get is masons laying bricks in mortar,
and none attacking stone with a chisel,
To see the other pictures you need to know the secret handshake....r
Pull my finger.
Under my leg while farting.
--
If you spin oriental folk till they are dizzy, do they become disoriented?
Peeler
2017-08-05 22:23:24 UTC
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On Sat, 05 Aug 2017 22:19:36 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by Mack A. Damia
Pull my finger.
Under my leg while farting.
Filthy sociopathic Scottish sow!
--
More from Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) strange sociopathic
mind:
"Apparently a HUMAN head can continue to see for 20 seconds after losing the
body."
MID: <***@red.lan>
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-03 08:25:25 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.jpe
g>
Post by Harrison Hill
When does "cement" become "concrete"?
Never. The cement is the binder.
Concrete is binder plus filling material, such as pebble or grit.
Post by Harrison Hill
A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
You never use concrete between bricks, always mortar.
The point of having a flexible mortar is that the mason
can align the bricks accurately.
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake. During the hot weather in June they tried to expand,
but had nowhere to expand to, so they started cracking and bursting
out. When we asked the man who does odd jobs around here if he could
fix the floor, he said yes, but not immediately as it was one of
numerous such cases in the building. Fortunately he had a stock of
tiles of the same design.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Having relatively big filler material in the mortar
it will spoil that,
Jan
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 09:19:28 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.
jpe
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
g>
Post by Harrison Hill
When does "cement" become "concrete"?
Never. The cement is the binder.
Concrete is binder plus filling material, such as pebble or grit.
Post by Harrison Hill
A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
You never use concrete between bricks, always mortar.
The point of having a flexible mortar is that the mason
can align the bricks accurately.
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
The error is not having a thick enough layer of 'glue'
(or whatever they call it nowadays)
to take up the differential expansion between the tiles
and the floor under them.
Or perhaps the tiles were fixed in a too strong mortar.
(or worse, Portland cement)
It is not the expansion of the tiles,
it's them being too fixed.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
During the hot weather in June they tried to expand,
but had nowhere to expand to, so they started cracking and bursting
out. When we asked the man who does odd jobs around here if he could
fix the floor, he said yes, but not immediately as it was one of
numerous such cases in the building. Fortunately he had a stock of
tiles of the same design.
Nowadays there is a fashion in 'calibrated tiles'.
These are tiles with very accurate dimensions,
which allows for seamless laying of very big tiles.
(up to 100x100 cm)
They must be laid (nearly) seamlessly,
because the edges are rather sharp.

AFAIK there are no problems with this
because of the flexibility of the glue,

Jan
Paul Carmichael
2017-08-03 10:08:16 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 10:59:23 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-03 12:04:40 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
--
athel
Richard Tobin
2017-08-03 12:18:10 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
Continuous welded rail is laid under tension, so that it has to heat
up far more before it starts to buckle.

About 15-20 years ago the line near our house was upgraded to
continuous welded rail. Before that you could tell about a minute
before a train passed because the radiators would start to rattle on
the walls.

-- Richard
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 15:46:17 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
Continuous welded rail is laid under tension, so that it has to heat
up far more before it starts to buckle.
It is laid to be under neutral tension at about 25 degrees.
(perhaps slightly more in southern France)
Post by Richard Tobin
About 15-20 years ago the line near our house was upgraded to
continuous welded rail.
Britain is that backward?
Post by Richard Tobin
Before that you could tell about a minute
before a train passed because the radiators would start to rattle on
the walls.
Anyone who has seen old westerns
know that the Injuns and the bandits
put their ear to the rails
to hear how far way the train still was,
even before it became visible,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-03 16:53:00 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
Continuous welded rail is laid under tension, so that it has to heat
up far more before it starts to buckle.
It is laid to be under neutral tension at about 25 degrees.
(perhaps slightly more in southern France)
Post by Richard Tobin
About 15-20 years ago the line near our house was upgraded to
continuous welded rail.
Britain is that backward?
Are you trying to imitate PTD? Not a strategy I would recommend for
Making Friends and Influencing People.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Before that you could tell about a minute
before a train passed because the radiators would start to rattle on
the walls.
Anyone who has seen old westerns
know that the Injuns and the bandits
put their ear to the rails
to hear how far way the train still was,
even before it became visible,
Jan
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-03 16:57:36 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
About 15-20 years ago the line near our house was upgraded to
continuous welded rail.
Britain is that backward?
Are you trying to imitate PTD? Not a strategy I would recommend for
Making Friends and Influencing People.
Apparently Athel Cornish-Bowden has never ever seen a posting by J. J. Lodder before.
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 19:35:30 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
Continuous welded rail is laid under tension, so that it has to heat
up far more before it starts to buckle.
It is laid to be under neutral tension at about 25 degrees.
(perhaps slightly more in southern France)
Post by Richard Tobin
About 15-20 years ago the line near our house was upgraded to
continuous welded rail.
Britain is that backward?
Are you trying to imitate PTD? Not a strategy I would recommend for
Making Friends and Influencing People.
Au contraire, -you- are starting to imitate PTD.
PTD has been telling me over and over that I'm anti-American.
Don't you start telling me I am anti-Brit.

As for the practical point:
European railway lines have been welded for many decades.
The 'old line' Paris-Lyon-Marseille must have been welded track
before they even started building the TGV.
I'm surprised that 'Kedeng-Kedeng' track
survived that long in Britain,

Jan
Richard Tobin
2017-08-03 19:44:34 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
European railway lines have been welded for many decades.
The 'old line' Paris-Lyon-Marseille must have been welded track
before they even started building the TGV.
I'm surprised that 'Kedeng-Kedeng' track
survived that long in Britain,
The line in question is not an important or heavily used one, though
it was said to be used for transporting nuclear fuel as it avoids the
town centre.

-- Richard
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-04 07:10:57 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by J. J. Lodder
European railway lines have been welded for many decades.
The 'old line' Paris-Lyon-Marseille must have been welded track
before they even started building the TGV.
I'm surprised that 'Kedeng-Kedeng' track
survived that long in Britain,
The line in question is not an important or heavily used one, though
it was said to be used for transporting nuclear fuel as it avoids the
town centre.
A friend of mine who knows about such things
says that bolted rails are just uneconomic,
compared to welded rails.
The kedeng kedeng causes too much wear on the rails
and on the rolling stock, forcing costly maintenance.
So they survive only on museum lines,
or low speed (freight) lines with low trafic,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-03 20:15:05 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Britain is that backward?
Are you trying to imitate PTD? Not a strategy I would recommend for
Making Friends and Influencing People.
Au contraire, -you- are starting to imitate PTD.
PTD has been telling me over and over that I'm anti-American.
Don't you start telling me I am anti-Brit.
Do you have the temerity to attempt to deny both charges?

I am hardly the only one to level them both.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-04 11:21:54 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
Continuous welded rail is laid under tension, so that it has to heat
up far more before it starts to buckle.
It is laid to be under neutral tension at about 25 degrees.
(perhaps slightly more in southern France)
Post by Richard Tobin
About 15-20 years ago the line near our house was upgraded to
continuous welded rail.
Britain is that backward?
No. It just means that the track was relaid when it needed to be relaid
(because of wear).

If there had been lots of trains travelling on it at high speeds it
would have been relaid much sooner.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Before that you could tell about a minute
before a train passed because the radiators would start to rattle on
the walls.
Anyone who has seen old westerns
know that the Injuns and the bandits
put their ear to the rails
to hear how far way the train still was,
even before it became visible,
Jan
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan
2017-08-04 15:19:19 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
Continuous welded rail is laid under tension, so that it has to heat
up far more before it starts to buckle.
About 15-20 years ago the line near our house was upgraded to
continuous welded rail. Before that you could tell about a minute
before a train passed because the radiators would start to rattle on
the walls.
When I've googled for this topic, the only Australian references I've
managed to find were for derailments. It looks as if our rail people
design for 45 Celcius, and the rail line buckles at 50 degrees. The
conclusion seems to be that the "continuous welded rail" works only in
cold climates.

In my recent train journeys I haven't listened for the traditional
"clickety clack". I'll have to check on my next trip.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mark Brader
2017-08-04 22:18:13 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Richard Tobin
About 15-20 years ago the line near our house was upgraded to
continuous welded rail.
When I've googled for this topic, the only Australian references I've
managed to find were for derailments. It looks as if our rail people
design for 45 Celcius, and the rail line buckles at 50 degrees. The
conclusion seems to be that the "continuous welded rail" works only in
cold climates.
A better conclusion would be that global warming screws up the engineers'
expectations of the likely highest and lowest temperatures. 50 C? Eep!
--
Mark Brader | Yet again, I begged him to explain himself in plain
Toronto | English. This request always surprises him, as he
***@vex.net | is always under the extraordinary impression that
| he has done so. -- Lynn & Jay, "Yes Minister"
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-05 07:29:47 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
Continuous welded rail is laid under tension, so that it has to heat
up far more before it starts to buckle.
About 15-20 years ago the line near our house was upgraded to
continuous welded rail. Before that you could tell about a minute
before a train passed because the radiators would start to rattle on
the walls.
When I've googled for this topic, the only Australian references I've
managed to find were for derailments. It looks as if our rail people
design for 45 Celcius, and the rail line buckles at 50 degrees.
Rails can get much hotter than that in the sun.
(even in NL > 70 degrees is possible)
Post by Peter Moylan
The conclusion seems to be that the "continuous welded rail" works only in
cold climates.
Certainly not. It depends on the temperature swing.
Your rails should be laid so as to be tension-free
at a higher temperature.

If Australia doesn't have welded rail
it is probably because it is too expensive,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-05 17:34:25 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
Continuous welded rail is laid under tension, so that it has to heat
up far more before it starts to buckle.
About 15-20 years ago the line near our house was upgraded to
continuous welded rail. Before that you could tell about a minute
before a train passed because the radiators would start to rattle on
the walls.
When I've googled for this topic, the only Australian references I've
managed to find were for derailments. It looks as if our rail people
design for 45 Celcius, and the rail line buckles at 50 degrees.
Rails can get much hotter than that in the sun.
(even in NL > 70 degrees is possible)
Even in the 1950s, when no one talked about global warming, there were
summer days in England when the tar in road surfaces exposed to the sun
melted.

We're at present suffering a heat wave, with temperatures up to 37°
(but they've been up to 40° in some places, like Nîmes or Montélimar).
Anyway, your post reminded me that I needed to put my car in its
garage. Even though it is a white car and was parked with less than
full sun, and it's early evening, so there has been some cooling, it
showed its temperature as 34° even though the temperature in the shade
on our balcony was 30°. A black object in full sun would have been much
hotter.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
The conclusion seems to be that the "continuous welded rail" works only in
cold climates.
Certainly not. It depends on the temperature swing.
Your rails should be laid so as to be tension-free
at a higher temperature.
If Australia doesn't have welded rail
it is probably because it is too expensive,
Jan
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 15:46:18 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
See the TGV line near to you.
Some of he tricks are:
1) Eliminate the sleepers, use concrete blocks
with W-bars connecting them to create a stiff stucture.
2) Use broken stones rather than pebbles,
to give the ballast bed more resistance.
3) Lay the track at a controlled temperature
by heating the rails while welding.
4) Use alignment machinery to (re)align the track
to millimeter accuracy.

Jan

PS For the amusement of the mathematical friends:
the special fasteners holding the track
are called Nabla fasteners,
because of their upright trianglar shape.
Jerry Friedman
2017-08-03 17:10:13 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On 8/3/17 9:46 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
[TGV]
Post by J. J. Lodder
the special fasteners holding the track
are called Nabla fasteners,
because of their upright trianglar shape.
Somebody somewhere says "nabla" instead of "del"?
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-03 17:37:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
[TGV]
Post by J. J. Lodder
the special fasteners holding the track
are called Nabla fasteners,
because of their upright trianglar shape.
Somebody somewhere says "nabla" instead of "del"?
I've never had much occasion to say either, but I've come across both
and I think I knew they were synonyms.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 19:35:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
[TGV]
Post by J. J. Lodder
the special fasteners holding the track
are called Nabla fasteners,
because of their upright trianglar shape.
Somebody somewhere says "nabla" instead of "del"?
I've never had much occasion to say either, but I've come across both
and I think I knew they were synonyms.
It's a pondian thing.
The thing was invented by Hamilton, and used by Maxwell and others.
Some American felt that Nabla didn't sound serious enough
and invented Del instead.

And so it has remained,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2017-08-04 15:24:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
[TGV]
Post by J. J. Lodder
the special fasteners holding the track
are called Nabla fasteners,
because of their upright trianglar shape.
Somebody somewhere says "nabla" instead of "del"?
I've never had much occasion to say either, but I've come across both
and I think I knew they were synonyms.
It's a pondian thing.
The thing was invented by Hamilton, and used by Maxwell and others.
Some American felt that Nabla didn't sound serious enough
and invented Del instead.
And so it has remained,
I have always pronounced it as "del". I have never encountered "nabla"
except in the sort of publications where it looks as if they say "del"
anyway.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-05 07:29:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
[TGV]
Post by J. J. Lodder
the special fasteners holding the track
are called Nabla fasteners,
because of their upright trianglar shape.
Somebody somewhere says "nabla" instead of "del"?
I've never had much occasion to say either, but I've come across both
and I think I knew they were synonyms.
It's a pondian thing.
The thing was invented by Hamilton, and used by Maxwell and others.
Some American felt that Nabla didn't sound serious enough
and invented Del instead.
And so it has remained,
I have always pronounced it as "del". I have never encountered "nabla"
except in the sort of publications where it looks as if they say "del"
anyway.
American cultural imperialism in action.
In Western Europe the Nabla is still used,
(and TeX also provides \nabla)

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 19:35:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
[TGV]
Post by J. J. Lodder
the special fasteners holding the track
are called Nabla fasteners,
because of their upright trianglar shape.
Somebody somewhere says "nabla" instead of "del"?
Of course. 'Del' is an American provincialism,

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-04 09:40:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
[TGV]
Post by J. J. Lodder
the special fasteners holding the track
are called Nabla fasteners,
because of their upright trianglar shape.
Somebody somewhere says "nabla" instead of "del"?
[continued] Some of the real hard-boiled engineers say it too.

There is a famous (to those who knnow about such things)
water control work, the 'Haringvlietsluizen' in the Netherlands
that uses 'Nabla liggers' as the central building element.
('liggers' translates to girders)
<http://www.michellesipers.com/portfolio_page/haringvliet/>
or
<https://www.beleefdedeltaroute.nl/files/poi/13/Fotoviewer/thumbs/thumb_
900x600_479361%20aanleg%201965.jpg>
for an idea the scale.
The flat tops of the Nablas support a four lane highway.

Perhaps their USACE friends [1] will translate it to 'Del-girders',

Jan

[1] Following several mishaps in the USA the USACE and the Dutch
(in Technical University Delft and 'Rijkswaterstaat')
have established a working cooperation,
exchanging experience and competence.
Tak To
2017-08-04 04:41:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
The force is great but apparently not unmanageable.

<gross simplification>

The Young's modulus (E) of steel is about 200GPa[1]. The
coefficient of linear thermal expansion (α) is ~<= 13E-6/K[2].
The rail's linear density (λ_r) is ~<= 70Kg/m[3]. The density
of steel (ρ) is~<= 7800Kg/m^3[4]. Assuming a temperature
differential (ΔT) of 60K, the thermal stress in the longitudinal
direction of the 2 rail beams is

horizontal stress (F_h) = E * α * λ_r/ρ * ΔT * 2 ~= 2.85E+5 Kg-wt

This is to be countered by frictional forces, the weakest of which
is assumed to be that between the concrete sleepers the gravel
below. The coefficient of friction (μ) in this case being
~>= 0.55[5], the required normal force is

normal force (F_n) = F_h/μ = 5.2E+5 Kg-wt

I don't know much about concrete sleepers so I just picked
a type randomly from the web[6]. Each of this has a mass (M_c)
of 620 lb (281Kg) and the spacing distance (Δs) is <= 28" (0.71m).
Together with the mass of the rails themselves, the total
linear density (rail and sleepers) is

track linear density (λ_ttl) = M_c/Δs + λ_r*2 = 515 Kg/m

Thus, any *straight* continuously welded track that is slightly
longer than 1 Km and is securely attached to concrete sleepers
should have enough frictional force to resist thermal expansion
or contraction in the longitudinal direction.

Curves, OTOH, ...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile
[4] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
[5] http://usacetechnicalletters.tpub.com/ETL-1110-3-446/ETL-1110-3-4460006.htm
[6] http://www.roclatie.com/rocla-products/concrete-rail-ties/yard-tie-101y/

</gross simplification>
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-04 07:10:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tak To
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
The force is great but apparently not unmanageable.
<gross simplification>
The Young's modulus (E) of steel is about 200GPa[1]. The
coefficient of linear thermal expansion (?) is ~<= 13E-6/K[2].
The rail's linear density (?_r) is ~<= 70Kg/m[3]. The density
of steel (?) is~<= 7800Kg/m^3[4]. Assuming a temperature
differential (?T) of 60K, the thermal stress in the longitudinal
direction of the 2 rail beams is
horizontal stress (F_h) = E * ? * ?_r/? * ?T * 2 ~= 2.85E+5 Kg-wt
This is to be countered by frictional forces, the weakest of which
is assumed to be that between the concrete sleepers the gravel
below. The coefficient of friction (?) in this case being
~>= 0.55[5], the required normal force is
normal force (F_n) = F_h/? = 5.2E+5 Kg-wt
I don't know much about concrete sleepers so I just picked
a type randomly from the web[6]. Each of this has a mass (M_c)
of 620 lb (281Kg) and the spacing distance (?s) is <= 28" (0.71m).
Together with the mass of the rails themselves, the total
linear density (rail and sleepers) is
track linear density (?_ttl) = M_c/?s + ?_r*2 = 515 Kg/m
Thus, any *straight* continuously welded track that is slightly
longer than 1 Km and is securely attached to concrete sleepers
should have enough frictional force to resist thermal expansion
or contraction in the longitudinal direction.
Curves, OTOH, ...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile
[4] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
[5] http://usacetechnicalletters.tpub.com/ETL-1110-3-446/ETL-1110-3-4460006.ht
m
Post by Tak To
[6] http://www.roclatie.com/rocla-products/concrete-rail-ties/yard-tie-101y/
</gross simplification>
Indeed, quite wrong even.
The problem with hot rails is not material strength,
it is instability against suddenly bending out.
With cold rails it is rails breaking, not friction,

Jan
Tak To
2017-08-04 17:35:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
The force is great but apparently not unmanageable.
<gross simplification>
The Young's modulus (E) of steel is about 200GPa[1]. The
coefficient of linear thermal expansion (?) is ~<= 13E-6/K[2].
The rail's linear density (?_r) is ~<= 70Kg/m[3]. The density
of steel (?) is~<= 7800Kg/m^3[4]. Assuming a temperature
differential (?T) of 60K, the thermal stress in the longitudinal
direction of the 2 rail beams is
horizontal stress (F_h) = E * ? * ?_r/? * ?T * 2 ~= 2.85E+5 Kg-wt
This is to be countered by frictional forces, the weakest of which
is assumed to be that between the concrete sleepers the gravel
below. The coefficient of friction (?) in this case being
~>= 0.55[5], the required normal force is
normal force (F_n) = F_h/? = 5.2E+5 Kg-wt
I don't know much about concrete sleepers so I just picked
a type randomly from the web[6]. Each of this has a mass (M_c)
of 620 lb (281Kg) and the spacing distance (?s) is <= 28" (0.71m).
Together with the mass of the rails themselves, the total
linear density (rail and sleepers) is
track linear density (?_ttl) = M_c/?s + ?_r*2 = 515 Kg/m
Thus, any *straight* continuously welded track that is slightly
longer than 1 Km and is securely attached to concrete sleepers
should have enough frictional force to resist thermal expansion
or contraction in the longitudinal direction.
Curves, OTOH, ...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile
[4] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
[5] http://usacetechnicalletters.tpub.com/ETL-1110-3-446/ETL-1110-3-4460006.ht
m
Post by Tak To
[6] http://www.roclatie.com/rocla-products/concrete-rail-ties/yard-tie-101y/
</gross simplification>
Indeed, quite wrong even.
The problem with hot rails is not material strength,
it is instability against suddenly bending out.
With cold rails it is rails breaking, not friction,
Who said anything about the problem being material strength
or friction? It is not clear if you have read my analysis
but did not understand it, or have not read it all.

Moreover, you failed to answer what Athel asked, namely how
continuously welded tracks handle thermal expansion and
contraction.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Harrison Hill
2017-08-04 19:38:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
The force is great but apparently not unmanageable.
<gross simplification>
The Young's modulus (E) of steel is about 200GPa[1]. The
coefficient of linear thermal expansion (?) is ~<= 13E-6/K[2].
The rail's linear density (?_r) is ~<= 70Kg/m[3]. The density
of steel (?) is~<= 7800Kg/m^3[4]. Assuming a temperature
differential (?T) of 60K, the thermal stress in the longitudinal
direction of the 2 rail beams is
horizontal stress (F_h) = E * ? * ?_r/? * ?T * 2 ~= 2.85E+5 Kg-wt
This is to be countered by frictional forces, the weakest of which
is assumed to be that between the concrete sleepers the gravel
below. The coefficient of friction (?) in this case being
~>= 0.55[5], the required normal force is
normal force (F_n) = F_h/? = 5.2E+5 Kg-wt
I don't know much about concrete sleepers so I just picked
a type randomly from the web[6]. Each of this has a mass (M_c)
of 620 lb (281Kg) and the spacing distance (?s) is <= 28" (0.71m).
Together with the mass of the rails themselves, the total
linear density (rail and sleepers) is
track linear density (?_ttl) = M_c/?s + ?_r*2 = 515 Kg/m
Thus, any *straight* continuously welded track that is slightly
longer than 1 Km and is securely attached to concrete sleepers
should have enough frictional force to resist thermal expansion
or contraction in the longitudinal direction.
Curves, OTOH, ...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile
[4] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
[5] http://usacetechnicalletters.tpub.com/ETL-1110-3-446/ETL-1110-3-4460006.ht
m
Post by Tak To
[6] http://www.roclatie.com/rocla-products/concrete-rail-ties/yard-tie-101y/
</gross simplification>
Indeed, quite wrong even.
The problem with hot rails is not material strength,
it is instability against suddenly bending out.
With cold rails it is rails breaking, not friction,
Who said anything about the problem being material strength
or friction? It is not clear if you have read my analysis
but did not understand it, or have not read it all.
Moreover, you failed to answer what Athel asked, namely how
continuously welded tracks handle thermal expansion and
contraction.
I'm not an engineer, but as far as I know the answer is
very simple. The gap is still there, but it is a diagonal
gap. The rails are there bearing the weight - but there
is no "clickety-clack".
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-04 21:29:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017 12:38:34 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
The force is great but apparently not unmanageable.
<gross simplification>
The Young's modulus (E) of steel is about 200GPa[1]. The
coefficient of linear thermal expansion (?) is ~<= 13E-6/K[2].
The rail's linear density (?_r) is ~<= 70Kg/m[3]. The density
of steel (?) is~<= 7800Kg/m^3[4]. Assuming a temperature
differential (?T) of 60K, the thermal stress in the longitudinal
direction of the 2 rail beams is
horizontal stress (F_h) = E * ? * ?_r/? * ?T * 2 ~= 2.85E+5 Kg-wt
This is to be countered by frictional forces, the weakest of which
is assumed to be that between the concrete sleepers the gravel
below. The coefficient of friction (?) in this case being
~>= 0.55[5], the required normal force is
normal force (F_n) = F_h/? = 5.2E+5 Kg-wt
I don't know much about concrete sleepers so I just picked
a type randomly from the web[6]. Each of this has a mass (M_c)
of 620 lb (281Kg) and the spacing distance (?s) is <= 28" (0.71m).
Together with the mass of the rails themselves, the total
linear density (rail and sleepers) is
track linear density (?_ttl) = M_c/?s + ?_r*2 = 515 Kg/m
Thus, any *straight* continuously welded track that is slightly
longer than 1 Km and is securely attached to concrete sleepers
should have enough frictional force to resist thermal expansion
or contraction in the longitudinal direction.
Curves, OTOH, ...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile
[4] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
[5] http://usacetechnicalletters.tpub.com/ETL-1110-3-446/ETL-1110-3-4460006.ht
m
Post by Tak To
[6] http://www.roclatie.com/rocla-products/concrete-rail-ties/yard-tie-101y/
</gross simplification>
Indeed, quite wrong even.
The problem with hot rails is not material strength,
it is instability against suddenly bending out.
With cold rails it is rails breaking, not friction,
Who said anything about the problem being material strength
or friction? It is not clear if you have read my analysis
but did not understand it, or have not read it all.
Moreover, you failed to answer what Athel asked, namely how
continuously welded tracks handle thermal expansion and
contraction.
I'm not an engineer, but as far as I know the answer is
very simple. The gap is still there, but it is a diagonal
gap. The rails are there bearing the weight - but there
is no "clickety-clack".
The discussion is about gap-less rails, aka "Continuous welded rail".
Stretches of CWR can be linked with expansion joints with diagonal gaps
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_(rail_transport)#Continuous_welded_rail>

Most modern railways use continuous welded rail (CWR), sometimes
referred to as ribbon rails. In this form of track, the rails are
welded together by utilising flash butt welding to form one
continuous rail that may be several kilometres long. Because there
are few joints, this form of track is very strong, gives a smooth
ride, and needs less maintenance; trains can travel on it at higher
speeds and with less friction. Welded rails are more expensive to
lay than jointed tracks, but have much lower maintenance costs. The
first welded track was used in Germany in 1924 and the US in
1930[12] and has become common on main lines since the 1950s.

The preferred process of flash butt welding involves an automated
track-laying machine running a strong electrical current through the
touching ends of two unjoined pieces of rail. The ends become white
hot due to electrical resistance and are then pressed together
forming a strong weld. Thermite welding is used to repair or splice
together existing CWR segments. This is a manual process requiring a
reaction crucible and form to contain the molten iron.
Thermite-bonded joints are seen as less reliable and more prone to
fracture or break.[citation needed]

North American practice is to weld 1/4 mile long segments of rail at
a rail facility and load it on a special train to carry it to the
job site. This train is designed to carry many segments of rail
which are placed so they can slide off their racks to the rear of
the train and be attached to the ties (sleepers) in a continuous
operation.[13]

If not restrained, rails would lengthen in hot weather and shrink in
cold weather. To provide this restraint, the rail is prevented from
moving in relation to the sleeper by use of clips or anchors.
Attention needs to be paid to compacting the ballast effectively,
including under, between, and at the ends of the sleepers, to
prevent the sleepers from moving. Anchors are more common for wooden
sleepers, whereas most concrete or steel sleepers are fastened to
the rail by special clips that resist longitudinal movement of the
rail. There is no theoretical limit to how long a welded rail can
be. However, if longitudinal and lateral restraint are insufficient,
the track could become distorted in hot weather and cause a
derailment. Distortion due to heat expansion is known in North
America as sun kink, and elsewhere as buckling. In extreme hot
weather special inspections are required to monitor sections of
track known to be problematic. In North American practice extreme
temperature conditions will trigger slow orders to allow for crews
to react to buckling or "sun kinks" if encountered.[14]

After new segments of rail are laid, or defective rails replaced
(welded-in), the rails can be artificially stressed if the
temperature of the rail during laying is cooler than what is
desired. The stressing process involves either heating the rails,
causing them to expand,[15] or stretching the rails with hydraulic
equipment. They are then fastened (clipped) to the sleepers in their
expanded form. This process ensures that the rail will not expand
much further in subsequent hot weather. In cold weather the rails
try to contract, but because they are firmly fastened, cannot do so.
In effect, stressed rails are a bit like a piece of stretched
elastic firmly fastened down.

CWR rail is laid (including fastening) at a temperature roughly
midway between the extremes experienced at that location. (This is
known as the "rail neutral temperature"). This installation
procedure is intended to prevent tracks from buckling in summer heat
or pulling apart in winter cold. In North America, because broken
rails (known as a pull-apart) are typically detected by interruption
of the current in the signaling system, they are seen as less of a
potential hazard than undetected heat kinks.

Joints are used in continuous welded rail when necessary, usually
for signal circuit gaps. Instead of a joint that passes straight
across the rail, the two rail ends are sometimes cut at an angle to
give a smoother transition. In extreme cases, such as at the end of
long bridges, a breather switch (referred to in North America and
Britain as an expansion joint) gives a smooth path for the wheels
while allowing the end of one rail to expand relative to the next
rail.

This shows a welded joint:
<Loading Image...>

and this, an expansion joint with diagonal gap:
<Loading Image...>
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-05 07:29:48 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
The force is great but apparently not unmanageable.
<gross simplification>
The Young's modulus (E) of steel is about 200GPa[1]. The
coefficient of linear thermal expansion (?) is ~<= 13E-6/K[2].
The rail's linear density (?_r) is ~<= 70Kg/m[3]. The density
of steel (?) is~<= 7800Kg/m^3[4]. Assuming a temperature
differential (?T) of 60K, the thermal stress in the longitudinal
direction of the 2 rail beams is
horizontal stress (F_h) = E * ? * ?_r/? * ?T * 2 ~= 2.85E+5 Kg-wt
This is to be countered by frictional forces, the weakest of which
is assumed to be that between the concrete sleepers the gravel
below. The coefficient of friction (?) in this case being
~>= 0.55[5], the required normal force is
normal force (F_n) = F_h/? = 5.2E+5 Kg-wt
I don't know much about concrete sleepers so I just picked
a type randomly from the web[6]. Each of this has a mass (M_c)
of 620 lb (281Kg) and the spacing distance (?s) is <= 28" (0.71m).
Together with the mass of the rails themselves, the total
linear density (rail and sleepers) is
track linear density (?_ttl) = M_c/?s + ?_r*2 = 515 Kg/m
Thus, any *straight* continuously welded track that is slightly
longer than 1 Km and is securely attached to concrete sleepers
should have enough frictional force to resist thermal expansion
or contraction in the longitudinal direction.
Curves, OTOH, ...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile
[4] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
[5] http://usacetechnicalletters.tpub.com/ETL-1110-3-446/ETL-1110-3-44600
06.ht
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
m
Post by Tak To
[6] http://www.roclatie.com/rocla-products/concrete-rail-ties/yard-tie-10
1y/
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
</gross simplification>
Indeed, quite wrong even.
The problem with hot rails is not material strength,
it is instability against suddenly bending out.
With cold rails it is rails breaking, not friction,
Who said anything about the problem being material strength
or friction? It is not clear if you have read my analysis
but did not understand it, or have not read it all.
Moreover, you failed to answer what Athel asked, namely how
continuously welded tracks handle thermal expansion and
contraction.
I'm not an engineer, but as far as I know the answer is
very simple. The gap is still there, but it is a diagonal
gap. The rails are there bearing the weight - but there
is no "clickety-clack".
That is done too, but only in special situations,
bridges, entrance to stations, etc.,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-05 16:55:07 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
The force is great but apparently not unmanageable.
<gross simplification>
The Young's modulus (E) of steel is about 200GPa[1]. The
coefficient of linear thermal expansion (?) is ~<= 13E-6/K[2].
The rail's linear density (?_r) is ~<= 70Kg/m[3]. The density
of steel (?) is~<= 7800Kg/m^3[4]. Assuming a temperature
differential (?T) of 60K, the thermal stress in the longitudinal
direction of the 2 rail beams is
horizontal stress (F_h) = E * ? * ?_r/? * ?T * 2 ~= 2.85E+5 Kg-wt
This is to be countered by frictional forces, the weakest of which
is assumed to be that between the concrete sleepers the gravel
below. The coefficient of friction (?) in this case being
~>= 0.55[5], the required normal force is
normal force (F_n) = F_h/? = 5.2E+5 Kg-wt
I don't know much about concrete sleepers so I just picked
a type randomly from the web[6]. Each of this has a mass (M_c)
of 620 lb (281Kg) and the spacing distance (?s) is <= 28" (0.71m).
Together with the mass of the rails themselves, the total
linear density (rail and sleepers) is
track linear density (?_ttl) = M_c/?s + ?_r*2 = 515 Kg/m
Thus, any *straight* continuously welded track that is slightly
longer than 1 Km and is securely attached to concrete sleepers
should have enough frictional force to resist thermal expansion
or contraction in the longitudinal direction.
Curves, OTOH, ...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile
[4] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
[5] http://usacetechnicalletters.tpub.com/ETL-1110-3-446/ETL-1110-3-44600
06.ht
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
m
Post by Tak To
[6] http://www.roclatie.com/rocla-products/concrete-rail-ties/yard-tie-10
1y/
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
</gross simplification>
Indeed, quite wrong even.
The problem with hot rails is not material strength,
it is instability against suddenly bending out.
With cold rails it is rails breaking, not friction,
Who said anything about the problem being material strength
or friction? It is not clear if you have read my analysis
but did not understand it, or have not read it all.
Moreover, you failed to answer what Athel asked, namely how
continuously welded tracks handle thermal expansion and
contraction.
I'm not an engineer, but as far as I know the answer is
very simple. The gap is still there, but it is a diagonal
gap. The rails are there bearing the weight - but there
is no "clickety-clack".
That is done too, but only in special situations,
bridges, entrance to stations, etc.,
Entrance to stations are, of course, among the easiest places for
ordinary people to have a look, so they may give a wrong idea of what
is most common.
--
athel
Tak To
2017-08-05 18:19:07 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps..
The force is great but apparently not unmanageable.
<gross simplification>
The Young's modulus (E) of steel is about 200GPa[1]. The
coefficient of linear thermal expansion (?) is ~<= 13E-6/K[2].
The rail's linear density (?_r) is ~<= 70Kg/m[3]. The density
of steel (?) is~<= 7800Kg/m^3[4]. Assuming a temperature
differential (?T) of 60K, the thermal stress in the longitudinal
direction of the 2 rail beams is
horizontal stress (F_h) = E * ? * ?_r/? * ?T * 2 ~= 2.85E+5 Kg-wt
This is to be countered by frictional forces, the weakest of which
is assumed to be that between the concrete sleepers the gravel
below. The coefficient of friction (?) in this case being
~>= 0.55[5], the required normal force is
normal force (F_n) = F_h/? = 5.2E+5 Kg-wt
I don't know much about concrete sleepers so I just picked
a type randomly from the web[6]. Each of this has a mass (M_c)
of 620 lb (281Kg) and the spacing distance (?s) is <= 28" (0.71m).
Together with the mass of the rails themselves, the total
linear density (rail and sleepers) is
track linear density (?_ttl) = M_c/?s + ?_r*2 = 515 Kg/m
Thus, any *straight* continuously welded track that is slightly
longer than 1 Km and is securely attached to concrete sleepers
should have enough frictional force to resist thermal expansion
or contraction in the longitudinal direction.
Curves, OTOH, ...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile
[4] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
[5] http://usacetechnicalletters.tpub.com/ETL-1110-3-446/ETL-1110-3-4460006.ht
m
Post by Tak To
[6] http://www.roclatie.com/rocla-products/concrete-rail-ties/yard-tie-101y/
</gross simplification>
Indeed, quite wrong even.
The problem with hot rails is not material strength,
it is instability against suddenly bending out.
With cold rails it is rails breaking, not friction,
Who said anything about the problem being material strength
or friction? It is not clear if you have read my analysis
but did not understand it, or have not read it all.
Moreover, you failed to answer what Athel asked, namely how
continuously welded tracks handle thermal expansion and
contraction.
I'm not an engineer, but as far as I know the answer is
very simple. The gap is still there, but it is a diagonal
gap. The rails are there bearing the weight - but there
is no "clickety-clack".
I don't know how often these are actually used. AFAIK one of
the motivation behind continuously welded track is that it
has lower maintenance cost because the clamps that hold the
rail to the sleeper need not accommodate movements caused by
thermal expansion and contraction.

In any case my simple analysis shows that the force of expansion
and contraction can be dealt with simply by bolting the
rail down, even though many people think that the force is
uncontrollable.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Peter Moylan
2017-08-06 02:17:28 UTC
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Post by Tak To
In any case my simple analysis shows that the force of expansion
and contraction can be dealt with simply by bolting the
rail down, even though many people think that the force is
uncontrollable.
I remember being fascinated by the physics of buckling when I studied
the subject that used to be called "Strength of Materials". (I think
it's now called "Structures".) A vertical column can take a load up to a
certain critical limit without problems. After you reach that limit a
positive feedback mechanism steps in, where a small deviation from
perfect verticality is immediately magnified, and you get catastrophic
collapse. It's that threshold effect that gives one the "force is
uncontrollable" impression.

If, however, you prop the column (preferably at the midpoint, but other
points do work) against sideways movement then it can survive a much
greater force without buckling. The prop doesn't even have to be
particularly strong, because the force it must apply is small.

A section of railway line under compression (because of heating) is
exactly the same problem as the vertical column. As long as you prevent
sideways movement, the rail can support a large compressive force
without buckling.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-07 07:06:36 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tak To
In any case my simple analysis shows that the force of expansion
and contraction can be dealt with simply by bolting the
rail down, even though many people think that the force is
uncontrollable.
I remember being fascinated by the physics of buckling when I studied
the subject that used to be called "Strength of Materials". (I think
it's now called "Structures".) A vertical column can take a load up to a
certain critical limit without problems. After you reach that limit a
positive feedback mechanism steps in, where a small deviation from
perfect verticality is immediately magnified, and you get catastrophic
collapse. It's that threshold effect that gives one the "force is
uncontrollable" impression.
If, however, you prop the column (preferably at the midpoint, but other
points do work) against sideways movement then it can survive a much
greater force without buckling. The prop doesn't even have to be
particularly strong, because the force it must apply is small.
A section of railway line under compression (because of heating) is
exactly the same problem as the vertical column. As long as you prevent
sideways movement, the rail can support a large compressive force
without buckling.
An even more brute force solution is provided by 'ballast-free' tracks.
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballastloos_spoor>
You'll have to do with the pictures,
no English wiki page on it as yet.

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-07 07:20:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tak To
In any case my simple analysis shows that the force of expansion
and contraction can be dealt with simply by bolting the
rail down, even though many people think that the force is
uncontrollable.
I remember being fascinated by the physics of buckling when I studied
the subject that used to be called "Strength of Materials". (I think
it's now called "Structures".) A vertical column can take a load up to a
certain critical limit without problems. After you reach that limit a
positive feedback mechanism steps in, where a small deviation from
perfect verticality is immediately magnified, and you get catastrophic
collapse. It's that threshold effect that gives one the "force is
uncontrollable" impression.
If, however, you prop the column (preferably at the midpoint, but other
points do work) against sideways movement then it can survive a much
greater force without buckling. The prop doesn't even have to be
particularly strong, because the force it must apply is small.
A section of railway line under compression (because of heating) is
exactly the same problem as the vertical column. As long as you prevent
sideways movement, the rail can support a large compressive force
without buckling.
An even more brute force solution is provided by 'ballast-free' tracks.
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballastloos_spoor>
You'll have to do with the pictures,
no English wiki page on it as yet.
No, but if you get Google to translate it it's quite intelligible.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-07 10:27:43 UTC
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On Mon, 7 Aug 2017 09:20:52 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tak To
In any case my simple analysis shows that the force of expansion
and contraction can be dealt with simply by bolting the
rail down, even though many people think that the force is
uncontrollable.
I remember being fascinated by the physics of buckling when I studied
the subject that used to be called "Strength of Materials". (I think
it's now called "Structures".) A vertical column can take a load up to a
certain critical limit without problems. After you reach that limit a
positive feedback mechanism steps in, where a small deviation from
perfect verticality is immediately magnified, and you get catastrophic
collapse. It's that threshold effect that gives one the "force is
uncontrollable" impression.
If, however, you prop the column (preferably at the midpoint, but other
points do work) against sideways movement then it can survive a much
greater force without buckling. The prop doesn't even have to be
particularly strong, because the force it must apply is small.
A section of railway line under compression (because of heating) is
exactly the same problem as the vertical column. As long as you prevent
sideways movement, the rail can support a large compressive force
without buckling.
An even more brute force solution is provided by 'ballast-free' tracks.
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballastloos_spoor>
You'll have to do with the pictures,
no English wiki page on it as yet.
No, but if you get Google to translate it it's quite intelligible.
There is also this which describes them using two of the same pictures:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_tie#Ballastless_track
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-05 07:29:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
The force is great but apparently not unmanageable.
<gross simplification>
The Young's modulus (E) of steel is about 200GPa[1]. The
coefficient of linear thermal expansion (?) is ~<= 13E-6/K[2].
The rail's linear density (?_r) is ~<= 70Kg/m[3]. The density
of steel (?) is~<= 7800Kg/m^3[4]. Assuming a temperature
differential (?T) of 60K, the thermal stress in the longitudinal
direction of the 2 rail beams is
horizontal stress (F_h) = E * ? * ?_r/? * ?T * 2 ~= 2.85E+5 Kg-wt
This is to be countered by frictional forces, the weakest of which
is assumed to be that between the concrete sleepers the gravel
below. The coefficient of friction (?) in this case being
~>= 0.55[5], the required normal force is
normal force (F_n) = F_h/? = 5.2E+5 Kg-wt
I don't know much about concrete sleepers so I just picked
a type randomly from the web[6]. Each of this has a mass (M_c)
of 620 lb (281Kg) and the spacing distance (?s) is <= 28" (0.71m).
Together with the mass of the rails themselves, the total
linear density (rail and sleepers) is
track linear density (?_ttl) = M_c/?s + ?_r*2 = 515 Kg/m
Thus, any *straight* continuously welded track that is slightly
longer than 1 Km and is securely attached to concrete sleepers
should have enough frictional force to resist thermal expansion
or contraction in the longitudinal direction.
Curves, OTOH, ...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile
[4] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
[5] http://usacetechnicalletters.tpub.com/ETL-1110-3-446/ETL-1110-3-4460006
.ht
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
m
Post by Tak To
[6] http://www.roclatie.com/rocla-products/concrete-rail-ties/yard-tie-101y
/
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
</gross simplification>
Indeed, quite wrong even.
The problem with hot rails is not material strength,
it is instability against suddenly bending out.
With cold rails it is rails breaking, not friction,
Who said anything about the problem being material strength
or friction? It is not clear if you have read my analysis
but did not understand it, or have not read it all.
You did, see above.
Post by Tak To
Moreover, you failed to answer what Athel asked, namely how
continuously welded tracks handle thermal expansion and
contraction.
You didn't understand. It doesn't expand or contract.
The rail is under tension or compression instead,

Jan
Tak To
2017-08-06 03:40:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
What about railway lines? When I were a lad we were told that the
characteristic sound of the wheels going over the gaps was due to the
need to allow expansion, but modern rails don't seem to have any gaps.
The force is great but apparently not unmanageable.
<gross simplification>
The Young's modulus (E) of steel is about 200GPa[1]. The
coefficient of linear thermal expansion (?) is ~<= 13E-6/K[2].
The rail's linear density (?_r) is ~<= 70Kg/m[3]. The density
of steel (?) is~<= 7800Kg/m^3[4]. Assuming a temperature
differential (?T) of 60K, the thermal stress in the longitudinal
direction of the 2 rail beams is
horizontal stress (F_h) = E * ? * ?_r/? * ?T * 2 ~= 2.85E+5 Kg-wt
This is to be countered by frictional forces, the weakest of which
is assumed to be that between the concrete sleepers the gravel
below. The coefficient of friction (?) in this case being
~>= 0.55[5], the required normal force is
normal force (F_n) = F_h/? = 5.2E+5 Kg-wt
I don't know much about concrete sleepers so I just picked
a type randomly from the web[6]. Each of this has a mass (M_c)
of 620 lb (281Kg) and the spacing distance (?s) is <= 28" (0.71m).
Together with the mass of the rails themselves, the total
linear density (rail and sleepers) is
track linear density (?_ttl) = M_c/?s + ?_r*2 = 515 Kg/m
Thus, any *straight* continuously welded track that is slightly
longer than 1 Km and is securely attached to concrete sleepers
should have enough frictional force to resist thermal expansion
or contraction in the longitudinal direction.
Curves, OTOH, ...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_profile
[4] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-alloys-densities-d_50.html
[5] http://usacetechnicalletters.tpub.com/ETL-1110-3-446/ETL-1110-3-4460006
..ht
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
m
Post by Tak To
[6] http://www.roclatie.com/rocla-products/concrete-rail-ties/yard-tie-101y
/
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
</gross simplification>
Indeed, quite wrong even.
The problem with hot rails is not material strength,
it is instability against suddenly bending out.
With cold rails it is rails breaking, not friction,
Who said anything about the problem being material strength
or friction? It is not clear if you have read my analysis
but did not understand it, or have not read it all.
You did, see above.
That's laughable. I did not use the word "problem" once in
my analysis.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Moreover, you failed to answer what Athel asked, namely how
continuously welded tracks handle thermal expansion and
contraction.
You didn't understand. It doesn't expand or contract.
The rail is under tension or compression instead,
Where in my analysis did I say that the rail in a continuously
welded track actually expands or contracts?

You really have a problem understanding others.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tak To
2017-08-03 15:54:04 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-03 16:56:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
--
athel
Quinn C
2017-08-03 17:41:22 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
--
... their average size remains so much smaller; so that the sum
total of food converted into thought by women can never equal
[that of] men. It follows therefore, that men will always think
more than women. -- M.A. Hardaker in Popular Science (1881)
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 19:35:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.

The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,

Jan
Quinn C
2017-08-03 21:23:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
Quebec. I'm not saying Canada, because it's well-known and easily
visible that the streets here are inferior to e.g. Ontario - or
the neighboring US states.
Post by J. J. Lodder
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
I put "tiles" in quotes above, because they don't look like what
I'd imagine as "pavement tiles" from my German backgrounds, i.e.
something like this:

<Loading Image...>

Rather, they are huge slabs the width of the whole sidewalk:

<Loading Image...>

I guess they are more prone to cracking than the smaller ones. The
weather is admittedly tough, not so much because it gets very
cold, but because it cycles between freezing and unfreezing many
times during a typical winter, more than in extremely cold places.
Also, snow clearing machines run on the sidewalks, creating more
load than just pedestrians:

<Loading Image...>

But all these conditions are similar for our neighbors, who manage
to have fewer cracks and potholes.

One reason is probably lack of real competition. All major paving
companies have been found to participate in collusion and rigging
their bids with the city.
--
WinErr 008: Erroneous error. Nothing is wrong.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-04 14:42:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 17:23:11 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
Quebec. I'm not saying Canada, because it's well-known and easily
visible that the streets here are inferior to e.g. Ontario - or
the neighboring US states.
Post by J. J. Lodder
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
I put "tiles" in quotes above, because they don't look like what
I'd imagine as "pavement tiles" from my German backgrounds, i.e.
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Sidewalk_construction_2.JPG/270px-Sidewalk_construction_2.JPG>
<http://img.src.ca/2016/02/04/635x357/160204_1k54y_saillie-trottoir-pietons_sn635.jpg>
Are those slabs that have been made elsewhere and then laid, or were
they made by pouring concrete in situ to fit the spaces?
Post by Quinn C
I guess they are more prone to cracking than the smaller ones. The
weather is admittedly tough, not so much because it gets very
cold, but because it cycles between freezing and unfreezing many
times during a typical winter, more than in extremely cold places.
Also, snow clearing machines run on the sidewalks, creating more
<http://i1.huffpost.com/gen/449652/images/s-MONTREAL-SNOWPLOW-VIDEO-NO-SNOW-large.jpg>
But all these conditions are similar for our neighbors, who manage
to have fewer cracks and potholes.
One reason is probably lack of real competition. All major paving
companies have been found to participate in collusion and rigging
their bids with the city.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Cheryl
2017-08-04 15:10:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 17:23:11 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
Quebec. I'm not saying Canada, because it's well-known and easily
visible that the streets here are inferior to e.g. Ontario - or
the neighboring US states.
Post by J. J. Lodder
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
I put "tiles" in quotes above, because they don't look like what
I'd imagine as "pavement tiles" from my German backgrounds, i.e.
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Sidewalk_construction_2.JPG/270px-Sidewalk_construction_2.JPG>
<http://img.src.ca/2016/02/04/635x357/160204_1k54y_saillie-trottoir-pietons_sn635.jpg>
Are those slabs that have been made elsewhere and then laid, or were
they made by pouring concrete in situ to fit the spaces?
Poured in place. They're the same type that we have here.

I can remember my old hometown had board sidewalks along the main
"shopping area" (OK, couple of stores), and hoping to find lost change
when they were torn up and replaced with concrete ones. Alas, I didn't
find any.

There's been at least one lawsuit in my city by a pedestrian who blamed
an accident on a broken sidewalk, but mostly we seem to take it for
granted that they often have cracks or worse.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Quinn C
One reason is probably lack of real competition. All major paving
companies have been found to participate in collusion and rigging
their bids with the city.
Montreal has had a certain reputation for that sort of thing as long as
I can remember.

I don't think our local contractors and politicians engage in such
things any more, not like in the old days. Or maybe they've just learned
to be more discreet.
--
Cheryl
Tony Cooper
2017-08-04 16:22:46 UTC
Reply
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Post by Cheryl
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Quinn C
<http://img.src.ca/2016/02/04/635x357/160204_1k54y_saillie-trottoir-pietons_sn635.jpg>
Are those slabs that have been made elsewhere and then laid, or were
they made by pouring concrete in situ to fit the spaces?
Poured in place. They're the same type that we have here.
Back in the summer of 1957, I had job with a construction company that
was replacing sidewalks in a neighborhood. Wooden forms were put in
place and the concrete was poured into those forms. The individual
slabs were separated by a strip of material of some substance that
would dissolve over time. This provided a thin gap between the slabs
to allow for the temperature-caused expansion/contraction of the slabs
during the year.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Cheryl
2017-08-03 21:44:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
--
Cheryl
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-04 07:10:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,

Jan
Cheryl
2017-08-04 09:39:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
--
Cheryl
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-05 07:29:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?

The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.

So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.

'Stoeptegels' aka 'trottoirtegels' are completely standardised,
by Stalinist-alike plan economy.
(Gray concrete, 30x30x4.5 cm, and 30x30x6 cm for heavily loaded ones)
These are virtually indestructible.

It would be very difficult to find an inferior quality one,
for they must satisfy NEN, nowadays Eurocrat norm NEN-EN 1339
in order to be admissible for use.
In two thousand years archeologists will be able to dig up
intact bicycle paths, just like some Roman roads can be dug up now.

Life is hard, under socialist rule,
but at least you get pavements and bicycle lanes
that don't crumble,

Jan
Cheryl
2017-08-05 09:23:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
I believe you when you say they don't complain, but surely if they pay
taxes to the central government, and the central government gives some
of the tax money back to the municipal government which uses some of the
tax money to build or fix sidewalks, the citizens are being taxed to fix
sidewalks? The money doesn't appear in either government's pockets out
of nowhere.
Post by J. J. Lodder
'Stoeptegels' aka 'trottoirtegels' are completely standardised,
by Stalinist-alike plan economy.
(Gray concrete, 30x30x4.5 cm, and 30x30x6 cm for heavily loaded ones)
These are virtually indestructible.
It would be very difficult to find an inferior quality one,
for they must satisfy NEN, nowadays Eurocrat norm NEN-EN 1339
in order to be admissible for use.
In two thousand years archeologists will be able to dig up
intact bicycle paths, just like some Roman roads can be dug up now.
Life is hard, under socialist rule,
but at least you get pavements and bicycle lanes
that don't crumble,
Astonishing.
--
Cheryl
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-07 09:45:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or
anything else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
I believe you when you say they don't complain, but surely if they pay
taxes to the central government, and the central government gives some
of the tax money back to the municipal government which uses some of the
tax money to build or fix sidewalks, the citizens are being taxed to fix
sidewalks? The money doesn't appear in either government's pockets out
of nowhere.
Sure but having more sidewalks near to you
won't change the VAT rate or the income tax percentage.
So the opposite happens: if citizens push their town councillors
it is for more spending on sidewalks and bicycle lanes, not less.
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
'Stoeptegels' aka 'trottoirtegels' are completely standardised,
by Stalinist-alike plan economy.
(Gray concrete, 30x30x4.5 cm, and 30x30x6 cm for heavily loaded ones)
These are virtually indestructible.
It would be very difficult to find an inferior quality one,
for they must satisfy NEN, nowadays Eurocrat norm NEN-EN 1339
in order to be admissible for use.
In two thousand years archeologists will be able to dig up
intact bicycle paths, just like some Roman roads can be dug up now.
Life is hard, under socialist rule,
but at least you get pavements and bicycle lanes
that don't crumble,
Astonishing.
Very, isn't it?

Jan
Cheryl
2017-08-07 10:14:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or
anything else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
I believe you when you say they don't complain, but surely if they pay
taxes to the central government, and the central government gives some
of the tax money back to the municipal government which uses some of the
tax money to build or fix sidewalks, the citizens are being taxed to fix
sidewalks? The money doesn't appear in either government's pockets out
of nowhere.
Sure but having more sidewalks near to you
won't change the VAT rate or the income tax percentage.
So the opposite happens: if citizens push their town councillors
it is for more spending on sidewalks and bicycle lanes, not less.
I didn't say people push for less spending on sidewalks, I said they
might realize they can't get more spending on sidewalks unless taxes go
up. That is, they realize that with only a certain amount of tax money
to go around, they have a choice between more services and the same
level of taxation, and chose the latter. Whether or not they get their
way depends on what all the other citizens vote and lobby for.

And when your fellow citizens push for more money spent on sidewalk, it
can happen one of two ways - taxes go up, so there's more money to
distribute through the system, or some other region gets fewer, or more
poorly-maintained, sidewalks. It comes down to much the same thing,
really. Taxes pay for sidewalks, citizens pay taxes, and only that
subset of citizens that thinks the government has a bottomless pot of
gold thinks that there's no connection between their tax rate and
sidewalk repair.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Astonishing.
Very, isn't it?
So much so that if I ever get to Europe again, I must visit your country
and observe for myself these perfect sidewalks that never need repair.
--
Cheryl
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-07 11:24:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45
years ago without any spacers between them, whether mortar
or air or anything else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack,
you must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the
cause lies with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay
for cheap jobs (b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to
cover cheap jobs (c) the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the
council and the contractor, who are corrupt (e) the climate aka
"frost heave", and therefore it's no one's fault...have I forgotten
one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
I believe you when you say they don't complain, but surely if they pay
taxes to the central government, and the central government gives some
of the tax money back to the municipal government which uses some of the
tax money to build or fix sidewalks, the citizens are being taxed to fix
sidewalks? The money doesn't appear in either government's pockets out
of nowhere.
Sure but having more sidewalks near to you
won't change the VAT rate or the income tax percentage.
So the opposite happens: if citizens push their town councillors
it is for more spending on sidewalks and bicycle lanes, not less.
I didn't say people push for less spending on sidewalks, I said they
might realize they can't get more spending on sidewalks unless taxes go
up. That is, they realize that with only a certain amount of tax money
to go around, they have a choice between more services and the same
level of taxation, and chose the latter. Whether or not they get their
way depends on what all the other citizens vote and lobby for.
Towns have an aproximately fixed budget.
The can't increase it by increasing taxes.
Post by Cheryl
And when your fellow citizens push for more money spent on sidewalk, it
can happen one of two ways - taxes go up, so there's more money to
distribute through the system, or some other region gets fewer, or more
poorly-maintained, sidewalks. It comes down to much the same thing,
really. Taxes pay for sidewalks, citizens pay taxes, and only that
subset of citizens that thinks the government has a bottomless pot of
gold thinks that there's no connection between their tax rate and
sidewalk repair.
Sure, in the ebd it all adds up.
(but you are forgetting about the national debt)
Nevertheless, the system doesn't lead
to the perpetual whining about taxes
that is so familiar from the other side of the pond.
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Astonishing.
Very, isn't it?
So much so that if I ever get to Europe again, I must visit your country
and observe for myself these perfect sidewalks that never need repair.
Who said they don't need repair? (that is, re-laying)
Dutch sub-soil is notoriously soft, so...
What was mentioned was tiles cracking.

With some googling you can easily see Dutch bicyle lanes
(the busiest in the world) in need of re-laying soon,

Jan
Cheryl
2017-08-07 11:33:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45
years ago without any spacers between them, whether mortar
or air or anything else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack,
you must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the
cause lies with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay
for cheap jobs (b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to
cover cheap jobs (c) the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the
council and the contractor, who are corrupt (e) the climate aka
"frost heave", and therefore it's no one's fault...have I forgotten
one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
I believe you when you say they don't complain, but surely if they pay
taxes to the central government, and the central government gives some
of the tax money back to the municipal government which uses some of the
tax money to build or fix sidewalks, the citizens are being taxed to fix
sidewalks? The money doesn't appear in either government's pockets out
of nowhere.
Sure but having more sidewalks near to you
won't change the VAT rate or the income tax percentage.
So the opposite happens: if citizens push their town councillors
it is for more spending on sidewalks and bicycle lanes, not less.
I didn't say people push for less spending on sidewalks, I said they
might realize they can't get more spending on sidewalks unless taxes go
up. That is, they realize that with only a certain amount of tax money
to go around, they have a choice between more services and the same
level of taxation, and chose the latter. Whether or not they get their
way depends on what all the other citizens vote and lobby for.
Towns have an approximately fixed budget.
The can't increase it by increasing taxes.
No, they'd have to lobby the next layer of government up for more money,
which would have to come from an increase in taxes...that's a
distinction without a difference.
Post by Cheryl
And when your fellow citizens push for more money spent on sidewalk, it
can happen one of two ways - taxes go up, so there's more money to
distribute through the system, or some other region gets fewer, or more
poorly-maintained, sidewalks. It comes down to much the same thing,
really. Taxes pay for sidewalks, citizens pay taxes, and only that
subset of citizens that thinks the government has a bottomless pot of
gold thinks that there's no connection between their tax rate and
sidewalk repair.
Sure, in the end it all adds up.
(but you are forgetting about the national debt)
Nevertheless, the system doesn't lead
to the perpetual whining about taxes
that is so familiar from the other side of the pond.
So, is this because your fellow-citizens are so ground under the
government heel that they are afraid to complain about taxation levels,
or because they love paying taxes or because they don't really
understand the connection between taxes and public services?
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Astonishing.
Very, isn't it?
So much so that if I ever get to Europe again, I must visit your country
and observe for myself these perfect sidewalks that never need repair.
Who said they don't need repair? (that is, re-laying)
Dutch sub-soil is notoriously soft, so...
What was mentioned was tiles cracking.
With some googling you can easily see Dutch bicyle lanes
(the busiest in the world) in need of re-laying soon,
I think you said above "I know tiled pavements that were laid decades
ago, and without a single crack in sight." and there was something I
can't find right now about sidewalks, like Roman roads, being dug up by
future archeologists in perfect condition.
--
Cheryl
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-07 11:35:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Towns have an aproximately fixed budget.
The can't increase it by increasing taxes.
That would be because of your top-down ("Stalinist") taxation system. US taxes
are levied at several levels so that local authorities can care for local needs.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-07 12:08:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 7 Aug 2017 04:35:30 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Towns have an aproximately fixed budget.
The can't increase it by increasing taxes.
That would be because of your top-down ("Stalinist") taxation system. US taxes
are levied at several levels so that local authorities can care for local needs.
Ooh! A good side of Stalin!
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-05 12:40:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
<...>
Post by J. J. Lodder
Life is hard, under socialist rule,
but at least you get pavements and bicycle lanes
that don't crumble,
Is there _any_ place JJ could be happy?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-05 17:02:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
'Stoeptegels' aka 'trottoirtegels' are completely standardised,
by Stalinist-alike plan economy.
(Gray concrete, 30x30x4.5 cm, and 30x30x6 cm for heavily loaded ones)
These are virtually indestructible.
It would be very difficult to find an inferior quality one,
for they must satisfy NEN, nowadays Eurocrat norm NEN-EN 1339
in order to be admissible for use.
In two thousand years archeologists will be able to dig up
intact bicycle paths, just like some Roman roads can be dug up now.
Life is hard, under socialist rule,
What you, or I, would call a right-wing government is close to what
Americans would call a socialist tyranny. Ever since I've been in
France the conservatives have made noises about doing away with
socialism, but they've got a long way to go before they reach the
paradisiac system that prevails in the USA.
Post by J. J. Lodder
but at least you get pavements and bicycle lanes
that don't crumble,
Jan
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-05 21:05:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
'Stoeptegels' aka 'trottoirtegels' are completely standardised,
by Stalinist-alike plan economy.
(Gray concrete, 30x30x4.5 cm, and 30x30x6 cm for heavily loaded ones)
These are virtually indestructible.
It would be very difficult to find an inferior quality one,
for they must satisfy NEN, nowadays Eurocrat norm NEN-EN 1339
in order to be admissible for use.
In two thousand years archeologists will be able to dig up
intact bicycle paths, just like some Roman roads can be dug up now.
Life is hard, under socialist rule,
What you, or I, would call a right-wing government is close to what
Americans would call a socialist tyranny.
In the Netherlands the members of what is the leading party
call themselves 'liberalen', and their party name (the VVD)
translates to 'People's Party for Freedom and Democracy'.
In practice they are more or less what what Brits call conservatives.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ever since I've been in
France the conservatives have made noises about doing away with
socialism, but they've got a long way to go before they reach the
paradisiac system that prevails in the USA.
France is another very strange case of far to much polarisation.
(real polarisation as you of course know,
not just the silly partisanship that Americans have)
They have always (that is, since 1870)
lacked a strong enough centre.

I very much hope Macron will succeed in creating such a thing.
It is about time to end the class struggle,

Jan
bill van
2017-08-06 06:21:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
'Stoeptegels' aka 'trottoirtegels' are completely standardised,
by Stalinist-alike plan economy.
(Gray concrete, 30x30x4.5 cm, and 30x30x6 cm for heavily loaded ones)
These are virtually indestructible.
It would be very difficult to find an inferior quality one,
for they must satisfy NEN, nowadays Eurocrat norm NEN-EN 1339
in order to be admissible for use.
In two thousand years archeologists will be able to dig up
intact bicycle paths, just like some Roman roads can be dug up now.
Life is hard, under socialist rule,
What you, or I, would call a right-wing government is close to what
Americans would call a socialist tyranny.
In the Netherlands the members of what is the leading party
call themselves 'liberalen', and their party name (the VVD)
translates to 'People's Party for Freedom and Democracy'.
In practice they are more or less what what Brits call conservatives.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ever since I've been in
France the conservatives have made noises about doing away with
socialism, but they've got a long way to go before they reach the
paradisiac system that prevails in the USA.
France is another very strange case of far to much polarisation.
(real polarisation as you of course know,
not just the silly partisanship that Americans have)
They have always (that is, since 1870)
lacked a strong enough centre.
I very much hope Macron will succeed in creating such a thing.
It is about time to end the class struggle,
Have you ever tried to break up a fight? Both sides turn on the person
who is intervening. With regard to the class struggle, all we can do
is wait for one or more of them to win.
--
bill
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-07 09:45:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bill van
Post by J. J. Lodder
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the
contractor, who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave",
and therefore it's no one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
'Stoeptegels' aka 'trottoirtegels' are completely standardised,
by Stalinist-alike plan economy.
(Gray concrete, 30x30x4.5 cm, and 30x30x6 cm for heavily loaded ones)
These are virtually indestructible.
It would be very difficult to find an inferior quality one,
for they must satisfy NEN, nowadays Eurocrat norm NEN-EN 1339
in order to be admissible for use.
In two thousand years archeologists will be able to dig up
intact bicycle paths, just like some Roman roads can be dug up now.
Life is hard, under socialist rule,
What you, or I, would call a right-wing government is close to what
Americans would call a socialist tyranny.
In the Netherlands the members of what is the leading party
call themselves 'liberalen', and their party name (the VVD)
translates to 'People's Party for Freedom and Democracy'.
In practice they are more or less what what Brits call conservatives.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ever since I've been in
France the conservatives have made noises about doing away with
socialism, but they've got a long way to go before they reach the
paradisiac system that prevails in the USA.
France is another very strange case of far to much polarisation.
(real polarisation as you of course know,
not just the silly partisanship that Americans have)
They have always (that is, since 1870)
lacked a strong enough centre.
I very much hope Macron will succeed in creating such a thing.
It is about time to end the class struggle,
Have you ever tried to break up a fight? Both sides turn on the person
who is intervening.
So to succeed you need to be stronger than both sides combined.
Macron has done a good job, so far.
(and he hasn't dropped to being impopular within a few months,
like most French presidents before him)
Post by bill van
With regard to the class struggle, all we can do is wait for one or more
of them to win.
That is excessively pessimistic.
Western Europe in general has done a good job of ending it,
without falling into excesses like the USA or Russia.
No intervention needed.
Those in favour of it have lost at the ballot boxes long ago,
(France is a bit exceptional)

Jan
Harrison Hill
2017-08-05 23:04:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack, you
must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the cause lies
with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay for cheap jobs
(b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to cover cheap jobs (c)
the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the council and the contractor,
who are corrupt (e) the climate aka "frost heave", and therefore it's no
one's fault...have I forgotten one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
'Stoeptegels' aka 'trottoirtegels' are completely standardised,
by Stalinist-alike plan economy.
(Gray concrete, 30x30x4.5 cm, and 30x30x6 cm for heavily loaded ones)
These are virtually indestructible.
It would be very difficult to find an inferior quality one,
for they must satisfy NEN, nowadays Eurocrat norm NEN-EN 1339
in order to be admissible for use.
In two thousand years archeologists will be able to dig up
intact bicycle paths, just like some Roman roads can be dug up now.
Life is hard, under socialist rule,
but at least you get pavements and bicycle lanes
that don't crumble,
ObAUE: "Stalinist-alike" is a great phrase, which avoids
the more menacing "Stalin-like" :)
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-07 09:45:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45
years ago without any spacers between them, whether mortar
or air or anything else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
That's very poor indeed.
Which third world country are you in?
I know tiled pavements that were laid decades ago,
and without a single crack in sight.
The main reason they are gradually disappearing
is that municipalities want something more fancy,
Since you don't live in an area with concrete sidewalks that crack,
you must also not have the traditional arguments over whether the
cause lies with (a) the council (or similar authority) who only pay
for cheap jobs (b) the citizens, who will only pay enough taxes to
cover cheap jobs (c) the contractor, who is incompetent (d) the
council and the contractor, who are corrupt (e) the climate aka
"frost heave", and therefore it's no one's fault...have I forgotten
one?
Yes. Sidewalks are not paid for by taxing citizens for them,
They're paid by donation then? That only happens here for special
commemorative or fund-raising ones where people can buy a brick (not,
generally, a concrete slab) and have an inscription put on it.
It all works differently.
The Netherlands are a socialist dictatorship, remember?
The towns have very litle tax income of their own.
Most taxes (VAT, income tax, and so on)
go directly to the central government.
This hands back money to towns
on a complicated pre-arranged distribution scheme.
So no citizens complaining that the municipality
is wasting 'their' tax money.
'Stoeptegels' aka 'trottoirtegels' are completely standardised,
by Stalinist-alike plan economy.
(Gray concrete, 30x30x4.5 cm, and 30x30x6 cm for heavily loaded ones)
These are virtually indestructible.
It would be very difficult to find an inferior quality one,
for they must satisfy NEN, nowadays Eurocrat norm NEN-EN 1339
in order to be admissible for use.
In two thousand years archeologists will be able to dig up
intact bicycle paths, just like some Roman roads can be dug up now.
Life is hard, under socialist rule,
but at least you get pavements and bicycle lanes
that don't crumble,
ObAUE: "Stalinist-alike" is a great phrase, which avoids
the more menacing "Stalin-like" :)
Stalin has been long dead,
but Stalinists of some kind are still around.
(if understood as people favouring top-down,
command driven mass producing plan economies)

Jan
Tak To
2017-08-04 17:42:28 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
IIRC, sidewalk concrete slabs crack mostly because of the underlying
gravel/soil structure has shifted (probably due to repeated freezing
and thawing for a location like Montreal), leading to uneven support
and stress points.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
bill van
2017-08-04 19:33:30 UTC
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Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
The concrete "tiles" that constitute most of the sidewalks in this
city start cracking after 2 or 3 years.
IIRC, sidewalk concrete slabs crack mostly because of the underlying
gravel/soil structure has shifted (probably due to repeated freezing
and thawing for a location like Montreal), leading to uneven support
and stress points.
Vancouver has many street trees grown in the "berm" area between the
sidewalks and the roadways. As the trees mature, their roots tend to
cause slow-motion heaving and cracking of sections of sidewalk.
--
bill
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 19:35:31 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Probably the same explanation as to why many things are not done
properly: the subcontractor hopes that when problems arise 45 years
later he won't be traceable.
As he is, in France. They have their 'garantie decenale'
and after that they are free of all obligations,

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-05 07:29:45 UTC
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Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Why not? I have seen medieval floor laid (almost) seamlessly
that were still in good shape. (except for wear of course)
Expansion is not the problem.

Jan
Cheryl
2017-08-05 09:20:02 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Why not? I have seen medieval floor laid (almost) seamlessly
that were still in good shape. (except for wear of course)
Expansion is not the problem.
Using identical tiles with identical substrate and glue, or whatever it
is that sticks tiles in place?

When I was still living in a house and playing with the idea of doing
renovations instead of patching essentials, I needed to fix a bathtub
surround, and looked up some information on tiling. Among other things,
I found a book that gave what the author described as proper,
traditional ways to tile which ensured the tiles would never move again.
I can't remember the details, but I can assure you it wasn't the modern
procedure. Any form of tiling turned out to be too expensive, so I went
with one of those plastic or fibreglass surrounds. I have since moved
into a place with tiles on some of the floors and walls which were
certainly not installed using the methods in that book, but which
haven't shifted or broken. Yet. I'll have to report back in 45 years.
--
Cheryl
Tak To
2017-08-06 14:43:14 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Why not? I have seen medieval floor laid (almost) seamlessly
that were still in good shape. (except for wear of course)
Expansion is not the problem.
Using identical tiles with identical substrate and glue, or whatever it
is that sticks tiles in place?
When I was still living in a house and playing with the idea of doing
renovations instead of patching essentials, I needed to fix a bathtub
surround, and looked up some information on tiling. Among other things,
I found a book that gave what the author described as proper,
traditional ways to tile which ensured the tiles would never move again.
I can't remember the details, but I can assure you it wasn't the modern
procedure.
Was that a DIY book or one of nostalgia?
Post by Cheryl
Any form of tiling turned out to be too expensive, so I went
with one of those plastic or fibreglass surrounds. I have since moved
into a place with tiles on some of the floors and walls which were
certainly not installed using the methods in that book, but which
haven't shifted or broken. Yet. I'll have to report back in 45 years.
I have never seen "shifted" tiles, just cracked or loose ones.
Wood in general is not a good substrate for tiles.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Cheryl
2017-08-06 14:50:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tak To
Post by Cheryl
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Why not? I have seen medieval floor laid (almost) seamlessly
that were still in good shape. (except for wear of course)
Expansion is not the problem.
Using identical tiles with identical substrate and glue, or whatever it
is that sticks tiles in place?
When I was still living in a house and playing with the idea of doing
renovations instead of patching essentials, I needed to fix a bathtub
surround, and looked up some information on tiling. Among other things,
I found a book that gave what the author described as proper,
traditional ways to tile which ensured the tiles would never move again.
I can't remember the details, but I can assure you it wasn't the modern
procedure.
Was that a DIY book or one of nostalgia?
DIY, but clearly one from another era. I think the library didn't get a
lot of requests for books on tiling, and since they had a couple, they
didn't bother updating them.
--
Cheryl
Tak To
2017-08-06 14:27:27 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Tak To
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
This is why we have flexible grout.
Yes, but Athel's floor is 45 years old,
People have been using floor tiles for centuries, if not millennia.
I have no idea why Athel's floor was done that way.
Why not? I have seen medieval floor laid (almost) seamlessly
that were still in good shape. (except for wear of course)
Expansion is not the problem.
I wasn't thinking about expansion. The issue for me was the
impracticality of laying process, plus the lack of space to
apply grout properly.

As I envisioned it, Athel's "without any spacers" meant
that each pair of adjoining tiles would almost always touch
each other, but the edges are not necessarily completely
flush. Visually, there would be short and very narrow
"grout lines"[1] here and there.

[1] Non-zero with boundary lines between tiles (zero
width at the touch points/lines). There may not be any
grout.

Note that the slight irregularity is due to the fact that
tiles are never perfectly rectilinear. If one simply butts
one edge to the next, pretty soon the pattern would be off.
Thus, one must orient each tile carefully to maintain the
global alignment. The smaller the average inter-tile
distance, the more precise the alignment must be, and the
slower the laying process would become.

I am not sure if what you have seen as "(almost) seamlessly"
was the same as what I have described above as "almost always
touching". A picture or two would help.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
James Wilkinson Sword
2017-08-05 21:20:45 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.
jpe
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
g>
Post by Harrison Hill
When does "cement" become "concrete"?
Never. The cement is the binder.
Concrete is binder plus filling material, such as pebble or grit.
Post by Harrison Hill
A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
You never use concrete between bricks, always mortar.
The point of having a flexible mortar is that the mason
can align the bricks accurately.
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
The error is not having a thick enough layer of 'glue'
(or whatever they call it nowadays)
to take up the differential expansion between the tiles
and the floor under them.
Or perhaps the tiles were fixed in a too strong mortar.
(or worse, Portland cement)
It is not the expansion of the tiles,
it's them being too fixed.
I once fixed tiles with cement. Don't. Cement doesn't flex. Walking over the tiles cracks them. You need to use tile adhesive, which has a slight flex even when set.
--
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.
Peeler
2017-08-05 22:25:21 UTC
Reply
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On Sat, 05 Aug 2017 22:20:45 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
Or perhaps the tiles were fixed in a too strong mortar.
(or worse, Portland cement)
It is not the expansion of the tiles,
it's them being too fixed.
I once fixed tiles with cement.
You need your head fixed, filthy sociopath!
--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) strange world he's
living in:
"Criminals should be tortured for the amusement of the rest of us."
MID: <***@red.lan>
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-06 12:14:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x4
14.
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
jpe
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
g>
Post by Harrison Hill
When does "cement" become "concrete"?
Never. The cement is the binder.
Concrete is binder plus filling material, such as pebble or grit.
Post by Harrison Hill
A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
You never use concrete between bricks, always mortar.
The point of having a flexible mortar is that the mason
can align the bricks accurately.
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
The error is not having a thick enough layer of 'glue'
(or whatever they call it nowadays)
to take up the differential expansion between the tiles
and the floor under them.
Or perhaps the tiles were fixed in a too strong mortar.
(or worse, Portland cement)
It is not the expansion of the tiles,
it's them being too fixed.
I once fixed tiles with cement. Don't. Cement doesn't flex. Walking
over the tiles cracks them.
In general the joints shouldn't be stronger that the material joined.
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
You need to use tile adhesive, which has a
slight flex even when set.
Right. In medieval times they didn't have that.
They used chalk, clay and sand instead.
You have a great example in Somerset.
<https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/mar/27/rare-medieval-tiled-flo
or-display-cleeve-abbey-somerset>
Note that the tiles are set as close as they will go.

Some more great medieveal tile floors in the Palais des Papes, Avignon,

Jan
James Wilkinson Sword
2017-08-06 19:29:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x4
14.
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
jpe
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
g>
Post by Harrison Hill
When does "cement" become "concrete"?
Never. The cement is the binder.
Concrete is binder plus filling material, such as pebble or grit.
Post by Harrison Hill
A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
You never use concrete between bricks, always mortar.
The point of having a flexible mortar is that the mason
can align the bricks accurately.
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
The error is not having a thick enough layer of 'glue'
(or whatever they call it nowadays)
to take up the differential expansion between the tiles
and the floor under them.
Or perhaps the tiles were fixed in a too strong mortar.
(or worse, Portland cement)
It is not the expansion of the tiles,
it's them being too fixed.
I once fixed tiles with cement. Don't. Cement doesn't flex. Walking
over the tiles cracks them.
In general the joints shouldn't be stronger that the material joined.
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
You need to use tile adhesive, which has a
slight flex even when set.
Right. In medieval times they didn't have that.
They used chalk, clay and sand instead.
You have a great example in Somerset.
<https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/mar/27/rare-medieval-tiled-floor-display-cleeve-abbey-somerset>
Note that the tiles are set as close as they will go.
Some more great medieveal tile floors in the Palais des Papes, Avignon,
Maybe the clay made it flexible? With standard Portland cement, te tiles very quickly cracked.
--
I'm not as drunk as thinkle may peep.
Peeler
2017-08-06 21:07:12 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Sun, 06 Aug 2017 20:29:33 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Maybe the clay made it flexible? With standard Portland cement, te tiles
very quickly cracked.
You cracked already at a very early age, eh, Birdbrain? Or maybe it's even
congenital? <BG>
--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) "deep thinking":
"You think it's wrong to avoid breathing water?"
MID: <***@red.lan>
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-07 07:41:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-60
0x4
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
14.
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
jpe
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
g>
Post by Harrison Hill
When does "cement" become "concrete"?
Never. The cement is the binder.
Concrete is binder plus filling material, such as pebble or grit.
Post by Harrison Hill
A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.
jpg
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Harrison Hill
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
You never use concrete between bricks, always mortar.
The point of having a flexible mortar is that the mason
can align the bricks accurately.
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake.
Don't think so. Mortar wouldn't have helped,
since sand doesn't compress very well.
The error is not having a thick enough layer of 'glue'
(or whatever they call it nowadays)
to take up the differential expansion between the tiles
and the floor under them.
Or perhaps the tiles were fixed in a too strong mortar.
(or worse, Portland cement)
It is not the expansion of the tiles,
it's them being too fixed.
I once fixed tiles with cement. Don't. Cement doesn't flex. Walking
over the tiles cracks them.
In general the joints shouldn't be stronger that the material joined.
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
You need to use tile adhesive, which has a
slight flex even when set.
Right. In medieval times they didn't have that.
They used chalk, clay and sand instead.
You have a great example in Somerset.
<https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/mar/27/rare-medieval-tiled-floor-d
isplay-cleeve-abbey-somerset>
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by J. J. Lodder
Note that the tiles are set as close as they will go.
Some more great medieveal tile floors in the Palais des Papes, Avignon,
Maybe the clay made it flexible? With standard Portland cement, te tiles
very quickly cracked.
The best material to lay tiles in is just sand.
Unfortunately that won't stay in place.
Next best is stabilised sand,
which is what medieval mortar essentially is.

Jan
s***@gmail.com
2017-08-03 20:56:54 UTC
Reply
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The floor tiles in our kitchen were installed about 45 years ago
without any spacers between them, whether mortar or air or anything
else. Big mistake. During the hot weather in June they tried to expand,
but had nowhere to expand to, so they started cracking and bursting
out. When we asked the man who does odd jobs around here if he could
fix the floor, he said yes, but not immediately as it was one of
numerous such cases in the building. Fortunately he had a stock of
tiles of the same design.
45 years isn't bad, especially as they didn't anticipate
having to deny global warming.

/dps
Whiskers
2017-08-03 13:34:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.jpeg>
I would expect "grout" to be pumped in to replace the water or mud and
to keep it out of the hole being created.
Post by Harrison Hill
When does "cement" become "concrete"? A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
"Cement" is the matrix which turns sand gravel or rubble into
"concrete", a composite material which behaves very much like natural
stone once "set". It isn't "concrete" till it sets, so although the
filler is present when the steel rods are driven in, it is the cement
which moves and flows to allow the metal to take up some of the space.
Steel rods or wires add strength under tension or torsion.

"Portland cement" tends to be hard and brittle, which makes for a
brittle wall if used as "mortar" between the stones or bricks; such
walls need to have thermal expansion joints, and don't mix well with
walls built using traditional lime-based mortar which remains flexible
and permeable allowing structures to move and flex and breathe. The UK
abounds in old buildings built using lime mortar and plaster that were
'improved' in the 1950s using Portland cement which has caused a lot of
structural damage in the form of trapped damp patches (leading to rot)
and big cracks. Even Windsor Castle, I think.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Charles Bishop
2017-08-03 18:35:32 UTC
Reply
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Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.jpe
g>
When does "cement" become "concrete"? A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Interesting. I haven't seen that - what normally happens (here, that
I've seen, natch) is that the hole is dug and the steel support is
manufactured outside the hole and then put into the hole, after which
the concrete is poured around it. Any holes I've been responsible for
have been small and shallow enough that the steel cages were put in and
concrete poured around them.
Post by Harrison Hill
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
No, between bricks you need mortar - concrete is not used as the gravel
would not allow easy leveling. Cement is used in making mortar, but is
not mortar by itself.

All terms my AmE.
--
charles
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-03 18:50:27 UTC
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Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.jpe
g>
When does "cement" become "concrete"? A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Interesting. I haven't seen that - what normally happens (here, that
I've seen, natch) is that the hole is dug and the steel support is
manufactured outside the hole and then put into the hole, after which
the concrete is poured around it. Any holes I've been responsible for
have been small and shallow enough that the steel cages were put in and
concrete poured around them.
Post by Harrison Hill
Sometimes I need "hard core" to turn "cement" into
"concrete"; at other times sand is sufficient. "Mortar"
requires lime when it is smoothing a wall - but to put
between bricks it can be plain old concrete or cement.
No, between bricks you need mortar - concrete is not used as the gravel
would not allow easy leveling. Cement is used in making mortar, but is
not mortar by itself.
The ancient Romans made a pretty good mortar that has barely
deteriorated in 2000 years (the theatres, arenas and aqueducts haven't
collapsed yet, and the aqueduct at Segovia has almost totally resisted
efforts by chaps in the middle ages to steal bits of it). You can see
how they made it at their factory in Barbegal (near Arles).
Post by Charles Bishop
All terms my AmE.
--
athel
Richard Tobin
2017-08-03 19:46:38 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The ancient Romans made a pretty good mortar that has barely
deteriorated in 2000 years (the theatres, arenas and aqueducts haven't
collapsed yet
Well, the ones that are still around haven't.

-- Richard
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 20:16:09 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The ancient Romans made a pretty good mortar that has barely
deteriorated in 2000 years (the theatres, arenas and aqueducts haven't
collapsed yet
Well, the ones that are still around haven't.
Many of the ones that have collasped
are still recognisable in the landscape.
Many of the ones that are still standing
no longer carry water,

Jan

PS Avoid the Pont du Gard.
It has been turned into a tourist trap
surrounded by huge (paying of course) parking areas.
It is hardly possible to even see it from the road.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-04 06:38:51 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The ancient Romans made a pretty good mortar that has barely
deteriorated in 2000 years (the theatres, arenas and aqueducts haven't
collapsed yet
Well, the ones that are still around haven't.
Many of the ones that have collasped
are still recognisable in the landscape.
Many of the ones that are still standing
no longer carry water,
Jan
PS Avoid the Pont du Gard.
It has been turned into a tourist trap
surrounded by huge (paying of course) parking areas.
It is hardly possible to even see it from the road.
Fortunately we went to it about 30 years ago, when it wasn't like that,
and when one was still allowed to walk (or, safer, crawl) over the top.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2017-08-03 19:35:32 UTC
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Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.j
pe
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
g>
When does "cement" become "concrete"? A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Interesting. I haven't seen that - what normally happens (here, that
I've seen, natch) is that the hole is dug and the steel support is
manufactured outside the hole and then put into the hole, after which
the concrete is poured around it. Any holes I've been responsible for
have been small and shallow enough that the steel cages were put in and
concrete poured around them.
Yes, HH surprised me too.
Normally speaking the steel is put in place,
(inside a perhaps lost coffering)
and concrete is poured around it.
(vibrated perhaps if needed to make it flow)

No idea if they really did it that crazy way,
or that perhaps HH misinterpreted what he saw,

Jan
s***@gmail.com
2017-08-03 20:46:40 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.j
pe
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
g>
When does "cement" become "concrete"? A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Interesting. I haven't seen that - what normally happens (here, that
I've seen, natch) is that the hole is dug and the steel support is
manufactured outside the hole and then put into the hole, after which
the concrete is poured around it. Any holes I've been responsible for
have been small and shallow enough that the steel cages were put in and
concrete poured around them.
Yes, HH surprised me too.
Normally speaking the steel is put in place,
(inside a perhaps lost coffering)
and concrete is poured around it.
(vibrated perhaps if needed to make it flow)
No idea if they really did it that crazy way,
or that perhaps HH misinterpreted what he saw,
Note that the picture of [a] concrete pumper that he chose
as the supplemental illustration
shows them [the THREE pumpers] pumping around rebar frameworks.

My experience with watching augers
(powered hand-held ones for fenceposts,
truck-mounted for utility poles)
is that withdrawing the auger from the hole
also withdraws any of the dirt they've loosened
and that hasn't already been pushed out of the hole.

I admit that I haven't seen an auger that has
a shield or wrapper around the screw-end.

/dps
Whiskers
2017-08-04 16:23:43 UTC
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Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x414.j
pe
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
g>
When does "cement" become "concrete"? A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jpg>
Interesting. I haven't seen that - what normally happens (here, that
I've seen, natch) is that the hole is dug and the steel support is
manufactured outside the hole and then put into the hole, after which
the concrete is poured around it. Any holes I've been responsible for
have been small and shallow enough that the steel cages were put in and
concrete poured around them.
Yes, HH surprised me too.
Normally speaking the steel is put in place,
(inside a perhaps lost coffering)
and concrete is poured around it.
(vibrated perhaps if needed to make it flow)
No idea if they really did it that crazy way,
or that perhaps HH misinterpreted what he saw,
Note that the picture of [a] concrete pumper that he chose
as the supplemental illustration
shows them [the THREE pumpers] pumping around rebar frameworks.
My experience with watching augers
(powered hand-held ones for fenceposts,
truck-mounted for utility poles)
is that withdrawing the auger from the hole
also withdraws any of the dirt they've loosened
and that hasn't already been pushed out of the hole.
I admit that I haven't seen an auger that has
a shield or wrapper around the screw-end.
/dps
I've seen both 'pour first' and 'steel first' approaches. In the latter
cases, the steelwork is vibrated as it is pushed into the cement, so the
final result is probably very similar. Perhaps the dimensions of the
pile or the setting rate of the cement have something to do with the
choice.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
HVS
2017-08-03 23:31:40 UTC
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On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 11:35:32 -0700, Charles Bishop
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x
414.jpe
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
g>
When does "cement" become "concrete"? A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jp
g>
Post by Charles Bishop
Interesting. I haven't seen that - what normally happens (here, that
I've seen, natch) is that the hole is dug and the steel support is
manufactured outside the hole and then put into the hole, after which
the concrete is poured around it. Any holes I've been responsible for
have been small and shallow enough that the steel cages were put in and
concrete poured around them.
Ditto. I've never seen the rebar cage hammered into a mass of wet
concrete - it's always been the case that the cage has been
positioned within whatever shuttering is being used, and then the wet
concrete is pumped into that.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanE (30 years) & BrE (34 years),
indiscriminately mixed
Harrison Hill
2017-08-04 07:07:08 UTC
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Post by HVS
On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 11:35:32 -0700, Charles Bishop
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
We've had this huge machine within a couple of feet of our
property over the last week. It uses it auger to displace
the soil, to create a hole. I think that if it finds liquid
mud, it pumps the liquid out; otherwise it leaves the soil
"in situ".
<http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/uploads/images-212-600x
414.jpe
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Harrison Hill
g>
When does "cement" become "concrete"? A cement mixer pours
concrete into this concrete pump, which is attached to the
piling machine; and as the (hollow) auger is withdrawn
concrete is forced through it to create the pile. Then
a flexible steel reinforcement cage is hammered into the wet
cement (sic). Finally a steel rod is hammered into the steel
<http://www.camfaud.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/i360_header-_3-1440x500.jp
g>
Post by Charles Bishop
Interesting. I haven't seen that - what normally happens (here,
that
Post by Charles Bishop
I've seen, natch) is that the hole is dug and the steel support is
manufactured outside the hole and then put into the hole, after
which
Post by Charles Bishop
the concrete is poured around it. Any holes I've been responsible
for
Post by Charles Bishop
have been small and shallow enough that the steel cages were put in
and
Post by Charles Bishop
concrete poured around them.
Ditto. I've never seen the rebar cage hammered into a mass of wet
concrete - it's always been the case that the cage has been
positioned within whatever shuttering is being used, and then the wet
concrete is pumped into that.
The cages don't need hammering (good word "rebar" BTW) but are
pressed in by a human. Half way down they will probably get stuck,
and a digger-bucket is used to gently press them "home".

I never get tired of watching digger drivers plying their trade.
Being able to switch from ultimate strength to ultimate control,
- to be as gentle or as powerful as you want to be - must be a
wonderful feeling. I tried it many times when I was young, and
couldn't get the hang of it at all.

BrE: "Back-actor" anybody?
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