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Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 11:50:28 UTC
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I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament by Mont
(actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling reform. Hansard has an amazing web
site -- it instantly shows you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for,
sorted by date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite good
at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the texts of the bills.

Where might I find it?

Thank you.

(The Congressional Record, OTOH, does include that sort of thing, and is also
amenable to "revise and extend," so that Congresspeople can remove the more
embarrassing things they say on the Floor.)

I also noted that an awful lot of the discussions took place late at night.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-08-06 12:27:38 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament by Mont
(actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling reform. Hansard has an amazing web
site -- it instantly shows you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for,
sorted by date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite good
at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the texts of the bills.
Where might I find it?
Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but it would
require a personal visit to access it unfortunately. You should have
thought of it when you were over here!

If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from

<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>

Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 13:33:56 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament by Mont
(actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling reform. Hansard has an amazing web
site -- it instantly shows you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for,
sorted by date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite good
at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the texts of the bills.
Where might I find it?
Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but it would
require a personal visit to access it unfortunately. You should have
thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the Navy Orders,
he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948, and I found a reference
to a "second reading" in 1949.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
That took me to the same Hansard pages. This is the relevant text:

SPELLING REFORM BILL
HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242
§
"to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school," presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr. Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]

Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the legislation
to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might be?
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-08-06 15:34:00 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament by Mont
(actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling reform. Hansard has an amazing web
site -- it instantly shows you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for,
sorted by date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite good
at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the texts of the bills.
Where might I find it?
Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but it would
require a personal visit to access it unfortunately. You should have
thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the Navy Orders,
he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948, and I found a reference
to a "second reading" in 1949.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
SPELLING REFORM BILL
HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242
§
"to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school," presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr. Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the legislation
to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it was
hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well be the
entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have been the
stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end of its
deliberations, presumably.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 16:16:36 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament by Mont
(actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling reform. Hansard has an amazing web
site -- it instantly shows you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for,
sorted by date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite good
at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the texts of the bills.
Where might I find it?
Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but it would
require a personal visit to access it unfortunately. You should have
thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the Navy Orders,
he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948, and I found a reference
to a "second reading" in 1949.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
SPELLING REFORM BILL
HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242
§
"to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school," presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr. Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the legislation
to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it was
hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well be the
entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have been the
stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end of its
deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of whether this
bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of the vote was?
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-08-06 16:25:03 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament by Mont
(actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling reform. Hansard has an amazing web
site -- it instantly shows you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for,
sorted by date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite good
at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the texts of the bills.
Where might I find it?
Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but it would
require a personal visit to access it unfortunately. You should have
thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the Navy Orders,
he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948, and I found a reference
to a "second reading" in 1949.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
SPELLING REFORM BILL
HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242
§
"to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school," presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr. Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the legislation
to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it was
hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well be the
entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have been the
stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end of its
deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of whether this
bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of the vote was?
According to BBC it was defeated on second reading by 3 votes.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 17:06:38 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament by Mont
(actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling reform. Hansard has an amazing web
site -- it instantly shows you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for,
sorted by date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite good
at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the texts of the bills.
Where might I find it?
Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but it would
require a personal visit to access it unfortunately. You should have
thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the Navy Orders,
he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948, and I found a reference
to a "second reading" in 1949.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
SPELLING REFORM BILL
HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242
§
"to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school," presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr. Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the legislation
to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it was
hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well be the
entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have been the
stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end of its
deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of whether this
bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of the vote was?
According to BBC it was defeated on second reading by 3 votes.
Does that mean he hoodwinked just short of half the entire House, or was
that a vote in the small committee?
charles
2018-08-06 17:24:24 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
On Monday, 6 August 2018 12:50:31 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to
Parliament by Mont (actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling
reform. Hansard has an amazing web site -- it instantly shows
you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for, sorted by
date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite
good at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the
texts of the bills. Where might I find it? Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but
it would require a personal visit to access it unfortunately.
You should have thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the
Navy Orders, he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948,
and I found a reference to a "second reading" in 1949.
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
That took me to the same Hansard pages. This is the relevant
text: SPELLING REFORM BILL HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242 § "to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of
spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to
eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school,"
presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr.
Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel
Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John
E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second
time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the
legislation to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might
be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it
was hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well
be the entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have
been the stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end
of its deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of whether
this bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of the vote was?
According to BBC it was defeated on second reading by 3 votes.
Does that mean he hoodwinked just short of half the entire House, or was
that a vote in the small committee?
neitehr. It was of those members of the House who attended. Private Members
Bills don't often attract much attention from members.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 17:40:13 UTC
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Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 8:27:41 AM UTC-4, Madrigal
On Monday, 6 August 2018 12:50:31 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to
Parliament by Mont (actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling
reform. Hansard has an amazing web site -- it instantly shows
you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for, sorted by
date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite
good at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the
texts of the bills. Where might I find it? Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but
it would require a personal visit to access it unfortunately.
You should have thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the
Navy Orders, he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948,
and I found a reference to a "second reading" in 1949.
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
That took me to the same Hansard pages. This is the relevant
text: SPELLING REFORM BILL HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242 § "to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of
spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to
eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school,"
presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr.
Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel
Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John
E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second
time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the
legislation to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might
be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it
was hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well
be the entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have
been the stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end
of its deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of whether
this bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of the vote was?
According to BBC it was defeated on second reading by 3 votes.
Does that mean he hoodwinked just short of half the entire House, or was
that a vote in the small committee?
neitehr. It was of those members of the House who attended. Private Members
Bills don't often attract much attention from members.
Ah. Do they require a quorum?

In the olden days, the New York Times would list the votes on every
(significant?) bill that was voted on. Interesting was the category
"paired, not voting," where senators from each side wouldn't have to
bother to go to the floor in order to cancel each other out. I doubt
they even consider doing that any more.
s***@gowanhill.com
2018-08-06 18:01:40 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
In the olden days, the New York Times would list the votes on every
(significant?) bill that was voted on. Interesting was the category
"paired, not voting," where senators from each side wouldn't have to
bother to go to the floor in order to cancel each other out. I doubt
they even consider doing that any more.
On the contrary, pairing (although not printing the pairs) is well-established in the UK Parliament and there was rather a controversy recently where the Chief Whip ordered a member to break their pair and vote.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44897844

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_(parliamentary_convention)#United_Kingdom

Owain
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 18:40:37 UTC
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Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
In the olden days, the New York Times would list the votes on every
(significant?) bill that was voted on. Interesting was the category
"paired, not voting," where senators from each side wouldn't have to
bother to go to the floor in order to cancel each other out. I doubt
they even consider doing that any more.
On the contrary, pairing (although not printing the pairs) is well-established in the UK Parliament and there was rather a controversy recently where the Chief Whip ordered a member to break their pair and vote.
"They," obviously, referred to US senators.
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44897844
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_(parliamentary_convention)#United_Kingdom
CDB
2018-08-07 15:46:12 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
In the olden days, the New York Times would list the votes on
every (significant?) bill that was voted on. Interesting was the
category "paired, not voting," where senators from each side
wouldn't have to bother to go to the floor in order to cancel
each other out. I doubt they even consider doing that any more.
On the contrary, pairing (although not printing the pairs) is
well-established in the UK Parliament and there was rather a
controversy recently where the Chief Whip ordered a member to break
their pair and vote.
Pairing has been tried in the Canadian House, mostly when Members had to
be away from Ottawa, but IIRC it was not done officially but as a series
of gentlecritter's agreements.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"They," obviously, referred to US senators.
Your comment was appended to a question, now snipped, about voting in
the British House. It was IMO perfectly legitimate to make the comparison.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44897844
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_(parliamentary_convention)#United_Kingdom
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-07 17:28:05 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
In the olden days, the New York Times would list the votes on
every (significant?) bill that was voted on. Interesting was the
category "paired, not voting," where senators from each side
wouldn't have to bother to go to the floor in order to cancel
each other out. I doubt they even consider doing that any more.
On the contrary, pairing (although not printing the pairs) is
well-established in the UK Parliament and there was rather a
controversy recently where the Chief Whip ordered a member to break
their pair and vote.
Pairing has been tried in the Canadian House, mostly when Members had to
be away from Ottawa, but IIRC it was not done officially but as a series
of gentlecritter's agreements.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"They," obviously, referred to US senators.
Your comment was appended to a question, now snipped, about voting in
the British House. It was IMO perfectly legitimate to make the comparison.
And the comparison, i.e. the antecedent of "They," was explicit ("senators on
each side").
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44897844
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_(parliamentary_convention)#United_Kingdom
John Ritson
2018-08-06 18:47:26 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 8:27:41 AM UTC-4, Madrigal
On Monday, 6 August 2018 12:50:31 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to
Parliament by Mont (actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling
reform. Hansard has an amazing web site -- it instantly shows
you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for, sorted by
date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite
good at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the
texts of the bills. Where might I find it? Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but
it would require a personal visit to access it unfortunately.
You should have thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the
Navy Orders, he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948,
and I found a reference to a "second reading" in 1949.
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-
archives/>
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
That took me to the same Hansard pages. This is the relevant
text: SPELLING REFORM BILL HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242 § "to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of
spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to
eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school,"
presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr.
Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel
Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John
E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second
time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the
legislation to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might
be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it
was hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well
be the entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have
been the stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end
of its deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of whether
this bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of the vote was?
According to BBC it was defeated on second reading by 3 votes.
Does that mean he hoodwinked just short of half the entire House, or was
that a vote in the small committee?
neitehr. It was of those members of the House who attended. Private Members
Bills don't often attract much attention from members.
Ah. Do they require a quorum?
No, but if any MP calls out 'Object' at the first reading, the Private
Member's Bill falls.
So only completely uncontroversial Bills pass.
In one recent case, a bill that would make 'upskirting' photography
illegal was blocked by an MP, Christopher Chope, who later claimed that
he was not supporting such activity, but simply didn't like Private
Member's Bills, despite proposing 32 of his own.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/christopher-chope-upskirting-private-
members-bill-32-his-own/
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
In the olden days, the New York Times would list the votes on every
(significant?) bill that was voted on. Interesting was the category
"paired, not voting," where senators from each side wouldn't have to
bother to go to the floor in order to cancel each other out. I doubt
they even consider doing that any more.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
--
John Ritson
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-06 18:58:10 UTC
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Post by John Ritson
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 8:27:41 AM UTC-4, Madrigal
On Monday, 6 August 2018 12:50:31 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to
Parliament by Mont (actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling
reform. Hansard has an amazing web site -- it instantly shows
you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for, sorted by
date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite
good at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the
texts of the bills. Where might I find it? Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but
it would require a personal visit to access it unfortunately.
You should have thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the
Navy Orders, he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948,
and I found a reference to a "second reading" in 1949.
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-
archives/>
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
That took me to the same Hansard pages. This is the relevant
text: SPELLING REFORM BILL HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242 § "to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of
spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to
eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school,"
presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr.
Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel
Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John
E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second
time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the
legislation to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might
be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it
was hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well
be the entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have
been the stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end
of its deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of whether
this bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of the vote was?
According to BBC it was defeated on second reading by 3 votes.
Does that mean he hoodwinked just short of half the entire House, or was
that a vote in the small committee?
neitehr. It was of those members of the House who attended. Private Members
Bills don't often attract much attention from members.
Ah. Do they require a quorum?
No, but if any MP calls out 'Object' at the first reading, the Private
Member's Bill falls.
So only completely uncontroversial Bills pass.
In one recent case, a bill that would make 'upskirting' photography
illegal was blocked by an MP, Christopher Chope, who later claimed that
he was not supporting such activity, but simply didn't like Private
Member's Bills, despite proposing 32 of his own.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/christopher-chope-upskirting-private-
members-bill-32-his-own/
Let's hope he gets lots of publicity.

Sensible people aren't going to care about his so-called reasons.

I hadn't heard of Mr Chope before, but it figures: Conservative,
Brexiter, hostile to same-sex marriage. What more could you ask?
Post by John Ritson
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
In the olden days, the New York Times would list the votes on every
(significant?) bill that was voted on. Interesting was the category
"paired, not voting," where senators from each side wouldn't have to
bother to go to the floor in order to cancel each other out. I doubt
they even consider doing that any more.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
--
athel
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-08-06 21:03:09 UTC
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Post by John Ritson
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:34:03 AM UTC-4, Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 8:27:41 AM UTC-4, Madrigal
On Monday, 6 August 2018 12:50:31 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to
Parliament by Mont (actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling
reform. Hansard has an amazing web site -- it instantly shows
you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for, sorted by
date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite
good at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the
texts of the bills. Where might I find it? Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but
it would require a personal visit to access it unfortunately.
You should have thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the
Navy Orders, he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948,
and I found a reference to a "second reading" in 1949.
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-
archives/>
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
That took me to the same Hansard pages. This is the relevant
text: SPELLING REFORM BILL HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242 § "to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of
spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to
eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school,"
presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr.
Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel
Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John
E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second
time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the
legislation to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might
be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it
was hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well
be the entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have
been the stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end
of its deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of whether
this bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of the vote was?
According to BBC it was defeated on second reading by 3 votes.
Does that mean he hoodwinked just short of half the entire House, or was
that a vote in the small committee?
neitehr. It was of those members of the House who attended. Private Members
Bills don't often attract much attention from members.
Ah. Do they require a quorum?
No, but if any MP calls out 'Object' at the first reading, the Private
Member's Bill falls.
So only completely uncontroversial Bills pass.
In one recent case, a bill that would make 'upskirting' photography
illegal was blocked by an MP, Christopher Chope, who later claimed that
he was not supporting such activity, but simply didn't like Private
Member's Bills, despite proposing 32 of his own.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/christopher-chope-upskirting-private-
members-bill-32-his-own/
Slightly unfair. What he objects to is Government business being done
by Private Member's Bill carried 'on the nod'. He thinks that the 'upskirting'
issue should be the subject of a Government introduced bill, properly
framed with the aid of HMG legal experts and that is indeed what will now
happen in the next Parliament session. He fears that too many trivial or
unpoliceable 'nanny state' laws are being passed with insufficient debate
and, frankly, given the quality of legislation heaped on the pile in recent
years, he has a pretty good case.
CDB
2018-08-07 15:45:05 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced
to Parliament by Mont (actually Montefiore) Follick on
spelling reform. Hansard has an amazing web site -- it
instantly shows you every "speech" by whichever MP you
ask it for, sorted by date and indexed by topic --
Follick seems to have been quite good at wasting the
House's time -- but it doesn't give the texts of the
bills. Where might I find it? Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive
but it would require a personal visit to access it
unfortunately. You should have thought of it when you were
over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of
the Navy Orders, he claimed to have introduced it on March
11, 1948, and I found a reference to a "second reading" in
1949.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order
copies from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>
anon:
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That took me to the same Hansard pages. This is the relevant
text: SPELLING REFORM BILL HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460
c1242 1242 § "to set up a committee to introduce a rational
system of spelling with a view to making English a
world-language and to eliminate unnecessary drudgery and
waste of time at school," presented by Mr. Follick;
supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr. Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon,
Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel Stoddart-Scott, Mr.
McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John E. Haire and Mr.
Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon
Friday, 11 th March, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of
the legislation to specify what "a rational system of
spelling" might be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if
all it was hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee
it may well be the entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete
reform would have been the stuff of the bill introduced by the
committee at the end of its deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of
whether this bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of
the vote was?
According to BBC it was defeated on second reading by 3 votes.
Does that mean he hoodwinked just short of half the entire House, or
was that a vote in the small committee?
You mean the one mentioned in the text? That would only have existed if
the bill had been passed and proclaimed. I'm not even sure it would
have been a committee of the House. Those are usually created by
resolution.

The vote took place in the House. Second Reading constitutes approval
of the bill's principle and orders its referral to a committee --
usually a select committee (in the UK) which can hear evidence before
debating and voting on each part of the bill and the amendments proposed
to it.

The "entire House" on such occasions is all of the Members present, not
always a great many. I don't remember what a quorum is in the British
House, but it's very low here (20, last time I looked) and our rules
still resemble theirs in many details.
Janet
2018-08-06 22:15:49 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament by Mont
(actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling reform. Hansard has an amazing web
site -- it instantly shows you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for,
sorted by date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite good
at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the texts of the bills.
Where might I find it?
Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but it would
require a personal visit to access it unfortunately. You should have
thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the Navy Orders,
he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948, and I found a reference
to a "second reading" in 1949.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
SPELLING REFORM BILL
HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242
§
"to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school," presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr. Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to
be printed. [Bill 54.]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the legislation
to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it was
hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well be the
entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have been the
stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end of its
deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of whether this
bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of the vote was?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_reform

In 1949, a Labour MP, Dr Mont Follick, introduced a private member's
bill in the House of Commons, which failed at the second reading. In
1953, he again had the opportunity, and this time it passed the second
reading by 65 votes to 53. Because of anticipated opposition from the
House of Lords, the bill was withdrawn after assurances from the
Minister of Education that research would be undertaken into improving
spelling education"

Janet.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-07 02:18:28 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament by Mont
(actually Montefiore) Follick on spelling reform. Hansard has an amazing web
site -- it instantly shows you every "speech" by whichever MP you ask it for,
sorted by date and indexed by topic -- Follick seems to have been quite good
at wasting the House's time -- but it doesn't give the texts of the bills.
Where might I find it?
Thank you.
It was 1949. There is a copy in the Parliamentary Archive but it would
require a personal visit to access it unfortunately. You should have
thought of it when you were over here!
In his 1952 "speeches" on simplifying spelling as part of the Navy Orders,
he claimed to have introduced it on March 11, 1948, and I found a reference
to a "second reading" in 1949.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
If you want one badly enough to pay for it you can order copies
from
<https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/parliamentary-archives/>
Search 'spelling reform' with the date 1949 in the catalogue.
SPELLING REFORM BILL
HC Deb 28 January 1949 vol 460 c1242
1242
§
"to set up a committee to introduce a rational system of spelling with a view to making English a world-language and to eliminate unnecessary drudgery and waste of time at school," presented by Mr. Follick; supported by Mr. W. J. Brown, Mr. Pitman, Sir Patrick Hannon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Proctor, Colonel Stoddart-Scott, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Odey, Mr. Delargy, Mr. John E. Haire and Mr. Morley; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 11 th March, and to
be printed. [Bill 54.]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Is that the actual text of the bill? Or was it to be part of the legislation
to specify what "a rational system of spelling" might be?
Without access to the archive I can't say for certain but if all it was
hoping to achieve was the creation of a committee it may well be the
entirety of the bill. Any actual concrete reform would have been the
stuff of the bill introduced by the committee at the end of its
deliberations, presumably.
Which, fortunately, never happened. Is there even a record of whether this
bill was voted on, and if so, what the outcome of the vote was?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_reform
In 1949, a Labour MP, Dr Mont Follick, introduced a private member's
bill in the House of Commons, which failed at the second reading. In
1953, he again had the opportunity, and this time it passed the second
reading by 65 votes to 53. Because of anticipated opposition from the
House of Lords, the bill was withdrawn after assurances from the
Minister of Education that research would be undertaken into improving
spelling education"
Clever minister: "Research would be undertaken."

The "Mr. Pitman" who appears above was Sir James Pitman, the evil genius
behind the ita scheme that ruined English children's ability to spell for
a "generation" of five years or so.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-06 17:15:33 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament
by Mont Follick
I haven't found the text of the bill, but you can get an idea of what
Mr Follick wanted from his book, much of which (but not all) can be
found at

https://books.google.fr/books?id=bwzSAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA52&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false


or

https://tinyurl.com/ybmsbreq

I suggest looking at page 202, but I warn you: you're not going to like
what you see.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 17:36:09 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament
by Mont Follick
I haven't found the text of the bill, but you can get an idea of what
Mr Follick wanted from his book, much of which (but not all) can be
found at
https://books.google.fr/books?id=bwzSAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA52&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
or
https://tinyurl.com/ybmsbreq
I suggest looking at page 202, but I warn you: you're not going to like
what you see.
I think I'll go downstairs to look at my copy ... assuming you're talking
about his screed on spelling reform (and not his highly successful English
grammar for foreign students).

*The Case for Spelling Reform* purchased in October 2013 ($10.12),
withdrawn from the Ag & Tech College at Morrisonville ("Ag & Tech" used to
designate Historically Black public institutions of higher education). Mr.
Google tells me there are at least three Morrisonvilles, and I don't care
to figure out whether this came from any of them.

Perhaps not -- 202 is the page facing the beginning of chapter XVII and
includes a sentence about Greeks and Turks in his favored respelling.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-06 18:34:54 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament
by Mont Follick
I haven't found the text of the bill, but you can get an idea of what
Mr Follick wanted from his book, much of which (but not all) can be
found at
https://books.google.fr/books?id=bwzSAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA52&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
or
https://tinyurl.com/ybmsbreq
I suggest looking at page 202, but I warn you: you're not going to like
what you see.
I think I'll go downstairs to look at my copy ... assuming you're talking
about his screed on spelling reform (and not his highly successful English
grammar for foreign students).
*The Case for Spelling Reform* purchased in October 2013 ($10.12),
withdrawn from the Ag & Tech College at Morrisonville ("Ag & Tech" used to
designate Historically Black public institutions of higher education). Mr.
Google tells me there are at least three Morrisonvilles, and I don't care
to figure out whether this came from any of them.
Perhaps not -- 202 is the page facing the beginning of chapter XVII and
includes a sentence about Greeks and Turks in his favored respelling.
Yes
--
athel
Mack A. Damia
2018-08-06 20:24:36 UTC
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On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 19:15:33 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm trying to find the text of the 1948 bill introduced to Parliament
by Mont Follick
I haven't found the text of the bill, but you can get an idea of what
Mr Follick wanted from his book, much of which (but not all) can be
found at
https://books.google.fr/books?id=bwzSAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA52&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
or
https://tinyurl.com/ybmsbreq
I suggest looking at page 202, but I warn you: you're not going to like
what you see.
1949:

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1949/mar/11/spelling-reform-bill
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