Discussion:
property of a noblewoman
(too old to reply)
Isabelle Cecchini
2014-10-27 08:34:52 UTC
Permalink
While admiring the works of art coming up for auction at Sotheby's in
New York I started wondering about the various ways the auctioneers are
safeguarding the sellers' anonymity.

Some collectors are "important", others "distinguished", one is
"prominent". There might be a geographical indication, "American",
"European","New England", "Italian", or "continental". I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?

I can't help feeling that there's a hidden code here known only to
serious amateurs.

What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of the
Magritte here:

<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.68.html>

Is she really a noblewoman? Would that still matter in the United States
if she were? I couldn't find any "nobleman" to keep her company in the
remainder of the catalogue.

The two paintings I'm really interested in are
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.17.html>
and
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.29.html>

As soon as the nice Nigerian gentleman has confirmed the deal about the
late Libyan leader's rather considerable assets, I'll be able to place
my bid!
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Jenny Telia
2014-10-27 11:09:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I can't help feeling that there's a hidden code here known only to
serious amateurs.
What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of the
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.68.html>
'Nobel persons' are dime-a-dozen on continental Europe, even if you are
able to verify their claims. I think the unicorn in the painting is a hint.
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
Is she really a noblewoman? Would that still matter in the United States
if she were?
Ha ha! Do Americans not fawn over the most trivial 'noble', titled or
'Royal' personages from the continent? Example in case, the ginger oaf
of an ex- wife of the oafish Prince Andrew, Sarah Ferguson. Does she
still make an ass of herself on US TV?
Steve Hayes
2014-10-27 12:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I can't help feeling that there's a hidden code here known only to
serious amateurs.
What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of the
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.68.html>
'Nobel persons' are dime-a-dozen on continental Europe, even if you are
able to verify their claims. I think the unicorn in the painting is a hint.
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
Is she really a noblewoman? Would that still matter in the United States
if she were?
Ha ha! Do Americans not fawn over the most trivial 'noble', titled or
'Royal' personages from the continent? Example in case, the ginger oaf
of an ex- wife of the oafish Prince Andrew, Sarah Ferguson. Does she
still make an ass of herself on US TV?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
charles
2014-10-27 12:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent. What you are thinking about is
"Mainland Europe".
--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
Steve Hayes
2014-10-27 17:23:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 12:31:30 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent. What you are thinking about is
"Mainland Europe".
Don(n)e.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
J. J. Lodder
2014-10-29 12:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,

Jan
charles
2014-10-29 12:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
I'm puzzled about the last one. Is it another way of saying
"American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica
and Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Exactly
--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
Mike Barnes
2014-10-29 12:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Exactly
England is not an island.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2014-10-29 13:01:58 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 12:11:47 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
I'm puzzled about the last one. Is it another way of saying
"American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica
and Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Exactly
Except that England isn't an island. It is part of an island.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
the Omrud
2014-10-29 12:54:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
I'm puzzled about the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
I'm pretty sure I left England on Sunday by car, without the benefit of
tunnel, bridge or ferry boat. England is not an island.
--
David
charles
2014-10-29 13:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
I'm puzzled about the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica
and Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
I'm pretty sure I left England on Sunday by car, without the benefit of
tunnel, bridge or ferry boat. England is not an island.
but, it is part of an island. "Fog in Channel - continent isolated".
Reputedly a London Evening Standard headline.
--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
Peter T. Daniels
2014-10-29 14:33:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
but, it is part of an island. "Fog in Channel - continent isolated".
Reputedly a London Evening Standard headline.
NB no verb.
charles
2014-10-29 14:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
but, it is part of an island. "Fog in Channel - continent isolated".
Reputedly a London Evening Standard headline.
NB no verb.
waht do you expect - it's a newspaper headline ;-)
--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
Peter T. Daniels
2014-10-29 16:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
but, it is part of an island. "Fog in Channel - continent isolated".
Reputedly a London Evening Standard headline.
NB no verb.
waht do you expect - it's a newspaper headline ;-)
There's at least one poster here who thinks that between 1930 and 1970,
standard practice was to include an indicative verb in every headline.
Robert Bannister
2014-10-30 00:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
I'm puzzled about the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
I'm pretty sure I left England on Sunday by car, without the benefit of
tunnel, bridge or ferry boat. England is not an island.
So John O'Gaunt was raving when he went on about "this scepter'd isle".
Pity. I liked that speech.
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
the Omrud
2014-10-30 14:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
I'm puzzled about the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica
and Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
I'm pretty sure I left England on Sunday by car, without the benefit of
tunnel, bridge or ferry boat. England is not an island.
So John O'Gaunt was raving when he went on about "this scepter'd isle".
Pity. I liked that speech.
I vaguely suspect that this speech was made by a John of Gaunt
impersonator, encouraged by that scurrilous Shakespeare geezer. He may
have been Irish, I wouldn't know.

But yes, he was raving. Even he must have known that England was not an
island.
--
David
Sam Plusnet
2014-10-30 18:38:55 UTC
Permalink
In article <8hs4w.559112$***@fx23.am4>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by the Omrud
But yes, he was raving. Even he must have known that England was not an
island.
I think Offa made a vague stab at eliminating one of England's land
borders by converting it into coastline.
--
Sam
FromTheRafters
2014-10-29 13:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Jan
England is not a continent.
Steve Hayes
2014-10-29 17:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Well, the islands on which England is situated.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
James Silverton
2014-10-29 17:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Well, the islands on which England is situated.
The main island of the United Kingdom is Great Britain of which England
is part, as are Wales and Scotland. Northern Ireland is not part of
either England or Great Britain. The formal name of the country is "The
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", usually shortened
to the United Kingdom.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.
charles
2014-10-29 17:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Silverton
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
I'm puzzled about the last one. Is it another way of saying
"American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica
and Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Well, the islands on which England is situated.
The main island of the United Kingdom is Great Britain of which England
is part, as are Wales and Scotland. Northern Ireland is not part of
either England or Great Britain. The formal name of the country is "The
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", usually shortened
to the United Kingdom.
but England does have some off-shore islands, the largest of which is the
Isle of Wight. Others include, Lundy, Lindisfarne, The Farne Islands & the
Scilly Isles.
--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
Charles Bishop
2014-10-29 20:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Silverton
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Well, the islands on which England is situated.
The main island of the United Kingdom is Great Britain of which England
is part, as are Wales and Scotland. Northern Ireland is not part of
either England or Great Britain. The formal name of the country is "The
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", usually shortened
to the United Kingdom.
Shortened in the past to the initialism

UKoGBaNI

as used in several newsgroups.

charles, I hope I have it right
Robert Bannister
2014-10-30 00:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Silverton
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 12:09:49 +0100, Jenny Telia
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Well, the islands on which England is situated.
The main island of the United Kingdom is Great Britain of which England
is part, as are Wales and Scotland. Northern Ireland is not part of
either England or Great Britain. The formal name of the country is "The
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", usually shortened
to the United Kingdom.
And the main island of England is Wight or is it Sheppey or Thanet?
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
Steve Hayes
2014-10-30 09:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by James Silverton
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 12:09:49 +0100, Jenny Telia
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Well, the islands on which England is situated.
The main island of the United Kingdom is Great Britain of which England
is part, as are Wales and Scotland. Northern Ireland is not part of
either England or Great Britain. The formal name of the country is "The
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", usually shortened
to the United Kingdom.
And the main island of England is Wight or is it Sheppey or Thanet?
Most of England is situated on the island of Great Britain, but it also
includes those and a few of others (Scilly etc). But all those islands are on
the continental shelf.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
charles
2014-10-30 10:22:00 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 08:36:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by James Silverton
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 12:09:49 +0100, Jenny Telia
Post by Jenny Telia
I'm puzzled about the last one. Is it another way of saying
"American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and
Corsica and Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
Well, the islands on which England is situated.
The main island of the United Kingdom is Great Britain of which
England is part, as are Wales and Scotland. Northern Ireland is not
part of either England or Great Britain. The formal name of the
country is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland",
usually shortened to the United Kingdom.
And the main island of England is Wight or is it Sheppey or Thanet?
Most of England is situated on the island of Great Britain, but it also
includes those and a few of others (Scilly etc). But all those islands
are on the continental shelf.
There is the tale of the Minister of Little Cumbrae (an island in the
Clyde) who asked his congregation to pray for the neighboring islands of
Greta Cumbrae and Great Britain.
--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
Robert Bannister
2014-10-31 00:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Robert Bannister
And the main island of England is Wight or is it Sheppey or Thanet?
Most of England is situated on the island of Great Britain, but it also
includes those and a few of others (Scilly etc). But all those islands are on
the continental shelf.
How sad to be left on the shelf at their age.
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
Guy Barry
2014-10-30 10:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
And the main island of England is Wight or is it Sheppey or Thanet?
The so-called Isle of Thanet isn't in fact an island. The Isle of Wight is
the largest English island by quite a long way:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_England#Largest_islands_in_England
--
Guy Barry
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2014-10-30 12:28:47 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:18:52 -0000, "Guy Barry"
Post by Guy Barry
Post by Robert Bannister
And the main island of England is Wight or is it Sheppey or Thanet?
The so-called Isle of Thanet isn't in fact an island.
The Isle of Thanet was an island until comparatively recently, FSVO
"comparatively".

This says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Thanet#Geography

Until the mid 18th century there was a ferry between Sandwich and
the island; in 1755 a wooden drawbridge was built, and the ferry was
closed.

Between The Isle of Thanet and the mainland was the Wantsum Channel.
That now exists as the River Wantsum which does not have a connection to
the sea at the north.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Wantsum

When does an island cease to be an island?
Post by Guy Barry
The Isle of Wight is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_England#Largest_islands_in_England
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Robert Bannister
2014-10-31 00:16:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Barry
Post by Robert Bannister
And the main island of England is Wight or is it Sheppey or Thanet?
The so-called Isle of Thanet isn't in fact an island. The Isle of Wight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_England#Largest_islands_in_England
Interesting list. I had never heard of Hayling Island, plus a number of
the smaller ones, and I had thought Lundy was bigger than that.
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
Jenny Telia
2014-10-30 11:03:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
England is not an island. Britain is.
FromTheRafters
2014-10-30 12:35:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
England is not an island. Britain is.
"Great Britain" is an island.
J. J. Lodder
2014-10-30 17:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jenny Telia
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
No, in Europe at least, "continental" denotes continental Europe
(excluding Britain).
And Ireland, and Malta, and Man, and Sicily and Sardina and Corsica and
Copenhagen and Crete and Corfu etc.
Islands can be part of a continent.
Like England, for example,
England is not an island. Britain is.
Have you ever heard someone in Edinburgh say
that the continent is isolated?

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2014-10-30 17:52:54 UTC
Permalink
On 2014-10-30 18:03:44 +0100, ***@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) said:

[ ... ]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jenny Telia
England is not an island. Britain is.
Have you ever heard someone in Edinburgh say
that the continent is isolated?
No, but I haven't heard anyone anywhere else say it.
--
athel
Bertel Lund Hansen
2014-10-31 12:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Have you ever heard someone in Edinburgh say
that the continent is isolated?
No, but I haven't heard anyone anywhere else say it.
Well, not heard, but I have read it - in Asterix in Britain.

To be precise, I read it in Danish.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2014-10-31 13:16:01 UTC
Permalink
On 2014-10-31 13:03:37 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Have you ever heard someone in Edinburgh say
that the continent is isolated?
No, but I haven't heard anyone anywhere else say it.
Well, not heard, but I have read it - in Asterix in Britain.
To be precise, I read it in Danish.
You do realize, I trust, that Asterix is not a British comic, and that
it doesn't report the words of real people?
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2014-10-31 13:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2014-10-31 13:03:37 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Have you ever heard someone in Edinburgh say
that the continent is isolated?
No, but I haven't heard anyone anywhere else say it.
Well, not heard, but I have read it - in Asterix in Britain.
To be precise, I read it in Danish.
You do realize, I trust, that Asterix is not a British comic, and that
it doesn't report the words of real people?
And that "Fog in Channel: Continent Cut Off" is a well-known phrase or
saying in BrE (mocking our self-centred insularity), and that it's that
that's being lampooned, originally in French? You're translating it
into Bertel-English from a Danish translation of a French original which
is itself a translation of a British English saying.
--
Katy Jennison
Jerry Friedman
2014-10-31 14:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2014-10-31 13:03:37 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Have you ever heard someone in Edinburgh say
that the continent is isolated?
No, but I haven't heard anyone anywhere else say it.
Well, not heard, but I have read it - in Asterix in Britain.
To be precise, I read it in Danish.
You do realize, I trust, that Asterix is not a British comic, and that
it doesn't report the words of real people?
And that "Fog in Channel: Continent Cut Off" is a well-known phrase or
saying in BrE (mocking our self-centred insularity), and that it's that
that's being lampooned, originally in French? You're translating it
into Bertel-English from a Danish translation of a French original which
is itself a translation of a British English saying.
I think that was Bertel's point (and he didn't translate it, he
identified it with Jan's translation).
--
Jerry Friedman
Katy Jennison
2014-10-31 14:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2014-10-31 13:03:37 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Have you ever heard someone in Edinburgh say
that the continent is isolated?
No, but I haven't heard anyone anywhere else say it.
Well, not heard, but I have read it - in Asterix in Britain.
To be precise, I read it in Danish.
You do realize, I trust, that Asterix is not a British comic, and that
it doesn't report the words of real people?
And that "Fog in Channel: Continent Cut Off" is a well-known phrase or
saying in BrE (mocking our self-centred insularity), and that it's that
that's being lampooned, originally in French? You're translating it
into Bertel-English from a Danish translation of a French original which
is itself a translation of a British English saying.
I think that was Bertel's point (and he didn't translate it, he
identified it with Jan's translation).
Yes, but the point (going back a bit) is that the phrase is "Continent
Cut Off" not "Continent Isolated".
--
Katy Jennison
Bertel Lund Hansen
2014-10-31 22:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
No, but I haven't heard anyone anywhere else say it.
Well, not heard, but I have read it - in Asterix in Britain.
To be precise, I read it in Danish.
You do realize, I trust, that Asterix is not a British comic, and that
it doesn't report the words of real people?
Those who report the words, are real people (or was, in one
case).
--
Bertel, Denmark
J. J. Lodder
2014-10-31 17:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Have you ever heard someone in Edinburgh say
that the continent is isolated?
No, but I haven't heard anyone anywhere else say it.
Well, not heard, but I have read it - in Asterix in Britain.
To be precise, I read it in Danish.
A mistake.
Learn some French to appreciate it.
If that's too much, read it in English,

Jan

"Vraiment, je dis !"

Jan
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2014-10-27 11:24:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:34:52 +0100, Isabelle Cecchini
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
While admiring the works of art coming up for auction at Sotheby's in
New York I started wondering about the various ways the auctioneers are
safeguarding the sellers' anonymity.
Some collectors are "important", others "distinguished", one is
"prominent". There might be a geographical indication, "American",
"European","New England", "Italian", or "continental". I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
I can't help feeling that there's a hidden code here known only to
serious amateurs.
What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of the
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.68.html>
Is she really a noblewoman? Would that still matter in the United States
if she were? I couldn't find any "nobleman" to keep her company in the
remainder of the catalogue.
I think it is to do with enhancing the prestige of the painting that is
for sale with a view to getting the highest price.

Current ownership is shown by statements such as:

"PROPERTY FROM AN IMPORTANT AMERICAN PRIVATE COLLECTION"
"PROPERTY FROM AN IMPORTANT EUROPEAN COLLECTION"
"PROPERTY OF A DISTINGUISHED NEW ENGLAND COLLECTOR"
"PROPERTY FROM AN IMPORTANT PRIVATE COLLECTION"

The owner of Lot 70 doesn't seem to be either important or
distingusihed:

"PROPERTY FROM A EUROPEAN COLLECTION"

It seems that in the case of Lot 68 the most they can say about the
current owner is that she is a "noblewoman". That presumably conveys to
an American audience an aura of prestige that "woman" would not
necessarily do.
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
The two paintings I'm really interested in are
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.17.html>
and
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.29.html>
As soon as the nice Nigerian gentleman has confirmed the deal about the
late Libyan leader's rather considerable assets, I'll be able to place
my bid!
Good luck!
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Iain Archer
2014-10-27 14:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
It seems that in the case of Lot 68 the most they can say about the
current owner is that she is a "noblewoman". That presumably conveys to
an American audience an aura of prestige that "woman" would not
necessarily do.
And "one lady owner" -- which used to be a standard qualifier in UK
small-ads for cars -- wouldn't be quite right here. The implication of
that was that it had had only one owner who happened to be a lady, and
hence a light-footed and fastidiously careful occasional driver.

One interesting gleaning: the previous owner of the pic is described in
Wijipedia as a "gallerist", a word I've not seen before. First use
cited in OED for this sense is 1966. GB ngram shows a small but
increasing use since then.
--
Iain Archer
Don Phillipson
2014-10-27 13:41:21 UTC
Permalink
. . . works of art coming up for auction at Sotheby's in
New York I started wondering about the various ways the auctioneers are
safeguarding the sellers' anonymity.
Some collectors are "important", others "distinguished", one is
"prominent". There might be a geographical indication, "American",
"European","New England", "Italian", or "continental". I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"? . . .
What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of the
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.68.html>
Is she really a noblewoman?
"Property of a nobleman" has been a standard formula in British
auction catalogues for more than 100 years, perhaps 200. It is a
more elegant way of specifying "anonymous vendor" and no doubt
an aid to marketing. (Both Mr Pooter (1889) and Hyacinth Bucket (1990)
would gladly pay more for some "property of a nobleman" than for other
goods, new or second-hand.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Django Cat
2014-10-27 22:08:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Phillipson
. . . works of art coming up for auction at Sotheby's in
New York I started wondering about the various ways the auctioneers
are safeguarding the sellers' anonymity.
Some collectors are "important", others "distinguished", one is
"prominent". There might be a geographical indication, "American",
"European","New England", "Italian", or "continental". I'm puzzled
about the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"? . . .
What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-m
odern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.68.html>
Is she really a noblewoman?
"Property of a nobleman" has been a standard formula in British
auction catalogues for more than 100 years, perhaps 200. It is a
more elegant way of specifying "anonymous vendor" and no doubt
an aid to marketing.
Has it? YLAL.... you're aren't think of 'gentleman's residence' BAC?

DC

--
Don Phillipson
2014-10-29 14:08:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Django Cat
Post by Don Phillipson
"Property of a nobleman" has been a standard formula in British
auction catalogues for more than 100 years, perhaps 200. It is a
more elegant way of specifying "anonymous vendor" and no doubt
an aid to marketing.
Has it? YLAL.... you're aren't think of 'gentleman's residence' BAC?
Foyle's War scriptwriter Horowitz (in the postwar episode in which
Sir William is expelled from MI5) believes "gentlemen's club" is a
euphemism for gay bar (or was in 1945.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Helen Lacedaemonian
2014-10-27 23:26:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Phillipson
. . . works of art coming up for auction at Sotheby's in
New York I started wondering about the various ways the auctioneers are
safeguarding the sellers' anonymity.
Some collectors are "important", others "distinguished", one is
"prominent". There might be a geographical indication, "American",
"European","New England", "Italian", or "continental". I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"? . . .
What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of the
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.68.html>
Is she really a noblewoman?
"Property of a nobleman" has been a standard formula in British
auction catalogues for more than 100 years, perhaps 200. It is a
more elegant way of specifying "anonymous vendor" and no doubt
an aid to marketing. (Both Mr Pooter (1889) and Hyacinth Bucket (1990)
would gladly pay more for some "property of a nobleman" than for other
goods, new or second-hand.)
What about "Property of a Lady"? If it was good enough for Ian Fleming, it's good enough for me. Oh, wait. I guess it wasn't good enough for Ian Fleming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopussy_and_The_Living_Daylights#.22Property_of_a_Lady.22

Best,
Helen
Tony Cooper
2014-10-27 15:56:58 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:34:52 +0100, Isabelle Cecchini
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
While admiring the works of art coming up for auction at Sotheby's in
New York I started wondering about the various ways the auctioneers are
safeguarding the sellers' anonymity.
Some collectors are "important", others "distinguished", one is
"prominent". There might be a geographical indication, "American",
"European","New England", "Italian", or "continental". I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
I can't help feeling that there's a hidden code here known only to
serious amateurs.
What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of the
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.68.html>
Is she really a noblewoman? Would that still matter in the United States
if she were? I couldn't find any "nobleman" to keep her company in the
remainder of the catalogue.
If I'm going to pay two to three million for a painting, I want a good
story to go with it. I not only want it previously owned by a
noblewoman, I want the story of that noblewoman's lurid lifestyle and
her liaisons with the famous.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
Bertel Lund Hansen
2014-10-27 20:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
If I'm going to pay two to three million for a painting, I want a good
story to go with it. I not only want it previously owned by a
noblewoman, I want the story of that noblewoman's lurid lifestyle and
her liaisons with the famous.
I do belieeve that you can get all that once you have laid down
the cach.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
2014-10-27 20:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I do belieeve that you can get all that once you have laid down
the cach.
Maybe a little cash would be better.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Robert Bannister
2014-10-27 22:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I do belieeve that you can get all that once you have laid down
the cach.
Maybe a little cash would be better.
I was hoping you had found a cache with a few million in it.
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
Mike L
2014-10-28 22:16:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 11:56:58 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:34:52 +0100, Isabelle Cecchini
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
While admiring the works of art coming up for auction at Sotheby's in
New York I started wondering about the various ways the auctioneers are
safeguarding the sellers' anonymity.
Some collectors are "important", others "distinguished", one is
"prominent". There might be a geographical indication, "American",
"European","New England", "Italian", or "continental". I'm puzzled about
the last one. Is it another way of saying "American"?
I can't help feeling that there's a hidden code here known only to
serious amateurs.
What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of the
<http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/impressionist-modern-art-evening-sale-n09219/lot.68.html>
Is she really a noblewoman? Would that still matter in the United States
if she were? I couldn't find any "nobleman" to keep her company in the
remainder of the catalogue.
If I'm going to pay two to three million for a painting, I want a good
story to go with it. I not only want it previously owned by a
noblewoman, I want the story of that noblewoman's lurid lifestyle and
her liaisons with the famous.
A good point. But of course the fine art market is international, so
these things aren't aimed at a specifically American audience.
--
Mike.
Christian Weisgerber
2014-10-27 14:49:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of the
Magritte here: [...]
Is she really a noblewoman?
Just what _is_ a "noblewoman" in the first place? In what European
countries does nobility still exist? I don't mean the descendents
of historical nobility that may still lug a title around as part
of their name and whose antics entertain the yellow press. In mean
nobility as a legally distinguished part of society with special
privileges etc. I guess the numerous constitutional monarchies may
have some remaining concept of nobility, but does that extend beyond
the succession rules for the (cerimonial) throne?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Don Phillipson
2014-10-27 17:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Just what _is_ a "noblewoman" in the first place? In what European
countries does nobility still exist? I don't mean the descendents
of historical nobility that may still lug a title around as part
of their name and whose antics entertain the yellow press. I mean
nobility as a legally distinguished part of society with special
privileges etc.
This is a technical question about constitutions -- and I doubt
that any constitutions (even the British) nowadays allow privileges
to noblemen (however defined) that commoners do not have.
The only British exception that I can think of is the legally-
defined line of succession to the crown. As is generally well-
known, there are plenty of aristocrats (princes and counts) in
republics (e.g. France and Germany) as well as elsewhere:
but I doubt they have civil rights distinct from other people.

But Sotheby's sale catalogues are oriented by other aims
than constitutional legality.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2014-10-27 19:16:41 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 13:38:49 -0400, "Don Phillipson"
Post by Don Phillipson
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Just what _is_ a "noblewoman" in the first place? In what European
countries does nobility still exist? I don't mean the descendents
of historical nobility that may still lug a title around as part
of their name and whose antics entertain the yellow press. I mean
nobility as a legally distinguished part of society with special
privileges etc.
This is a technical question about constitutions -- and I doubt
that any constitutions (even the British) nowadays allow privileges
to noblemen (however defined) that commoners do not have.
The only British exception that I can think of is the legally-
defined line of succession to the crown. As is generally well-
known, there are plenty of aristocrats (princes and counts) in
but I doubt they have civil rights distinct from other people.
The upper house of the UK Parliament is the House of Lords. That used to
be "crewed" exclusively by members of the hereditary nobility (and
Church of England Bishops). Today the members are mainly "life peers"
who are Lords and Ladies appointed individually on the basis of
"experience", "merit" and party allegiance. There are also 90 hereditary
peers who are elected from the ranks of all hereditary peers (nobility).

Outside that, members of the nobility have, in general, the same civil
rights and powers as anyone else.
Post by Don Phillipson
But Sotheby's sale catalogues are oriented by other aims
than constitutional legality.
Golly Gosh!
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Bertel Lund Hansen
2014-10-27 20:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Phillipson
This is a technical question about constitutions -- and I doubt
that any constitutions (even the British) nowadays allow privileges
to noblemen (however defined) that commoners do not have.
True. Both parties are allowed to sleep under the bridges and get
free meals from charitable organisations.
--
Bertel, Denmark
J. J. Lodder
2014-10-29 18:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Phillipson
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Just what _is_ a "noblewoman" in the first place? In what European
countries does nobility still exist? I don't mean the descendents
of historical nobility that may still lug a title around as part
of their name and whose antics entertain the yellow press. I mean
nobility as a legally distinguished part of society with special
privileges etc.
This is a technical question about constitutions -- and I doubt
that any constitutions (even the British) nowadays allow privileges
to noblemen (however defined) that commoners do not have.
The only British exception that I can think of is the legally-
defined line of succession to the crown. As is generally well-
known, there are plenty of aristocrats (princes and counts) in
but I doubt they have civil rights distinct from other people.
But Sotheby's sale catalogues are oriented by other aims
than constitutional legality.
The nobility was abolished in Germany after WW I.
Titles became just part of family names.
Some have kept it, ohters have dropped that part of their name.
The German law that you can take your wife's family name applies,
so in another thousand years all Germans may be Freiherr,
Prinz, or Graf, or just Von Whatever,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2014-10-30 03:17:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
The nobility was abolished in Germany after WW I.
Titles became just part of family names.
Some have kept it, ohters have dropped that part of their name.
The German law that you can take your wife's family name applies,
so in another thousand years all Germans may be Freiherr,
Prinz, or Graf, or just Von Whatever,
Some considerable part of Schloss Nymphenburg in Munich is occupied
by the gentleman who would be King of Bavaria if Bavaria still had
kings. His title is Grossherzog, and he serves in some level of
Parliament -- whether state or national was not made clear.
Christian Weisgerber
2014-10-30 15:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Some considerable part of Schloss Nymphenburg in Munich is occupied
by the gentleman who would be King of Bavaria if Bavaria still had
kings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria
Post by Peter T. Daniels
His title is Grossherzog, and he serves in some level of
Parliament -- whether state or national was not made clear.
I'll take Wikipedia's word over yours.

ObAUE:
From an article in The Telegraph, Wikipedia-EN quotes a spokesman:
"HRM [sic] the Duke generally does not comment on issues concerning
his familiar [sic] relationship to the Royal House of Stuart".

"HRM" should be "HRH" for "His Royal Highness". Presumably the M
is for "Majesty", but this is not the correct style in English.
The speaker also stumbles over the adjective that goes with "family"
(German "familiär"), which should be "familial".
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2014-10-30 16:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Some considerable part of Schloss Nymphenburg in Munich is occupied
by the gentleman who would be King of Bavaria if Bavaria still had
kings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria
Post by Peter T. Daniels
His title is Grossherzog, and he serves in some level of
Parliament -- whether state or national was not made clear.
I'll take Wikipedia's word over yours.
"HRM [sic] the Duke generally does not comment on issues concerning
his familiar [sic] relationship to the Royal House of Stuart".
"HRM" should be "HRH" for "His Royal Highness". Presumably the M
is for "Majesty", but this is not the correct style in English.
The speaker also stumbles over the adjective that goes with "family"
(German "familiär"), which should be "familial".
"familial" is fine, but in most contexts "family" would be fine too, as
well as much more familiar (no pun intended).
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2014-10-30 21:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Some considerable part of Schloss Nymphenburg in Munich is occupied
by the gentleman who would be King of Bavaria if Bavaria still had
kings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria
Post by Peter T. Daniels
His title is Grossherzog, and he serves in some level of
Parliament -- whether state or national was not made clear.
I'll take Wikipedia's word over yours.
I'll take the word of the guide at Schloss Nymphenburg over Wikipedia's.
Post by Christian Weisgerber
"HRM [sic] the Duke generally does not comment on issues concerning
his familiar [sic] relationship to the Royal House of Stuart".
"HRM" should be "HRH" for "His Royal Highness". Presumably the M
is for "Majesty", but this is not the correct style in English.
The speaker also stumbles over the adjective that goes with "family"
(German "familiär"), which should be "familial".
--
Christian Weisgerber
2014-10-30 22:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Christian Weisgerber
I'll take Wikipedia's word over yours.
I'll take the word of the guide at Schloss Nymphenburg over Wikipedia's.
Not as repeated by an unreliable witness like yourself.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
J. J. Lodder
2014-10-31 08:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Some considerable part of Schloss Nymphenburg in Munich is occupied
by the gentleman who would be King of Bavaria if Bavaria still had
kings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria
Post by Peter T. Daniels
His title is Grossherzog, and he serves in some level of
Parliament -- whether state or national was not made clear.
I'll take Wikipedia's word over yours.
I'll take the word of the guide at Schloss Nymphenburg over Wikipedia's.
It hasn't occurred to you that the Grossherzog
(and some of his underlings)
might have eh.. slightly unrealistic ideas
about his status as pretender?

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2014-10-31 12:49:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Some considerable part of Schloss Nymphenburg in Munich is occupied
by the gentleman who would be King of Bavaria if Bavaria still had
kings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria
Post by Peter T. Daniels
His title is Grossherzog, and he serves in some level of
Parliament -- whether state or national was not made clear.
I'll take Wikipedia's word over yours.
I'll take the word of the guide at Schloss Nymphenburg over Wikipedia's.
It hasn't occurred to you that the Grossherzog
(and some of his underlings)
might have eh.. slightly unrealistic ideas
about his status as pretender?
I wouldn't know; I didn't meet His Lordship personally. There was
no indication, however, that he makes any claim on the (nonexistent)
throne of Bavaria.

So, do you now include Bavaria alongside the USA in your perpetual
derision?
Jerry Friedman
2014-10-31 14:39:59 UTC
Permalink
On 10/29/14 11:34 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
The nobility was abolished in Germany after WW I.
Titles became just part of family names.
Some have kept it, ohters have dropped that part of their name.
The German law that you can take your wife's family name applies,
so in another thousand years all Germans may be Freiherr,
Prinz, or Graf, or just Von Whatever,
A friend of mine told me she was the heir to some minor title in
Germany. When she worked in Germany for a few years, she "had" to go
somewhere and formally renounce the title--on her behalf and her
mother's, I suppose.

When she told me this, I thought there was some legal reason involved,
but maybe she was just being socially helpful somehow.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2014-10-31 15:08:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
The nobility was abolished in Germany after WW I.
Titles became just part of family names.
Some have kept it, ohters have dropped that part of their name.
The German law that you can take your wife's family name applies,
so in another thousand years all Germans may be Freiherr,
Prinz, or Graf, or just Von Whatever,
A friend of mine told me she was the heir to some minor title in
Germany. When she worked in Germany for a few years, she "had" to go
somewhere and formally renounce the title--on her behalf and her
mother's, I suppose.
When she told me this, I thought there was some legal reason involved,
but maybe she was just being socially helpful somehow.
I tend to be sceptical of stuff like that. The last year that I worked
at Berkeley I lived in Alameda in a small block of four apartments,
managed by someone called Windsor who spent a large part of each day
working on his pick-up truck. He said that he was a relative of
Brenda's and that he and his family had been invited to the coronation
(then in the reasonably recent past, as it was in 1969 when he told
me). I think he probably believed this, but that the reality may have
been a bit different.
--
athel
Jack Campin
2014-10-31 16:28:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
The nobility was abolished in Germany after WW I.
Titles became just part of family names.
An old Italian immigrant in Edinburgh I knew slightly had the
title "Cavaliere" on the nameplate on his door. When did they
abolish that in Italy? - I've never heard of anybody else using
it.

(For what it's worth, he was a Fascist for about as long as you
could feasibly be one in Scotland).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Helen Lacedaemonian
2014-10-31 23:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Campin
Post by J. J. Lodder
The nobility was abolished in Germany after WW I.
Titles became just part of family names.
An old Italian immigrant in Edinburgh I knew slightly had the
title "Cavaliere" on the nameplate on his door. When did they
abolish that in Italy? - I've never heard of anybody else using
it.
"Via, cavaliere, riflettete: saggia
non è cotesta ostinatezza vostra.
Angoscia grande, pronta confessione
eviterà! Io vi consiglio, dite:
dov'è dunque Angelotti?"

Best,
Helen

Christian Weisgerber
2014-10-31 21:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
A friend of mine told me she was the heir to some minor title in
Germany. When she worked in Germany for a few years, she "had" to go
somewhere and formally renounce the title--on her behalf and her
mother's, I suppose.
When she told me this, I thought there was some legal reason involved,
but maybe she was just being socially helpful somehow.
The only nobleperson of repute we have here in Ludwigshafen is a
King of Ghana, who runs a car repair shop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9phas_Bansah
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Garrett Wollman
2014-10-27 18:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Just what _is_ a "noblewoman" in the first place? In what European
countries does nobility still exist? I don't mean the descendents
of historical nobility that may still lug a title around as part
of their name and whose antics entertain the yellow press. In mean
nobility as a legally distinguished part of society with special
privileges etc.
Well, naming is a big part of the "special privilege" -- in a number
of countries, there are legal restrictions on taking on (or giving
children) names that imply a noble title to which one is not
entitled. I don't quite understand what the point is, but I suppose
when a Name is all you have left of your former importance....

(I find titles of pretense to be far more incomprehensible --
particularly when there is more than one pretender claiming the
long-abolished title. It's one thing to be an old hereditary monarch
hanging around after being overthrown in a military coup, but a rather
different thing entirely to claim to be the "rightful" King of France
because you don't recognize the legitimacy of the Treaty of Utrecht
1713.)

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
***@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Don Phillipson
2014-10-27 21:49:34 UTC
Permalink
. . . -- in a number
of countries, there are legal restrictions on taking on (or giving
children) names that imply a noble title to which one is not
entitled.
Can GW name one of these countries? France will not do
because France (up to some date I have forgotten) allowed
only personal names from an approved list of historic and
Christian names: no unlisted name was allowed. (I once
worked for a Frenchman inordinately proud that his legal
name was Tony which is unlisted. As a Jew and a Free
Frenchman in England, he got his birth records in France
destroyed during WW2, and when reorganizing his documents
after the war managed via Gaullist connections to get himself
listed as Tony rather than Antoine.) I.e. the old French law
disallowed Duc or Comte just the same as Dweezle or
Moon Unit, and for reasons of logic or "ordre sociale,"
unrelated to social class. What other countries restricted
naming and why?
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Bertel Lund Hansen
2014-10-27 23:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Phillipson
unrelated to social class. What other countries restricted
naming and why?
There are restrictions on names in Denmark. We have a positive
list of approved first names. If anyone wants to see them, they
are available here:

http://www.familiestyrelsen.dk/soeginavnelister/godkendtefornavne/

Click on the menu links "Pigenavne" for girls and "Drengenavne"
for boys.

A generation ago these lists were much shorter. We have a rule
about people who come to our country. If they have a name which
is an accepted name in their home country, this name will be
accepted and entered into the list. So the lists have been
exploding.

It is possible to make up a new name and apply for it to be
accepted, but some board has to approve it.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Helen Lacedaemonian
2014-10-28 01:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Don Phillipson
unrelated to social class. What other countries restricted
naming and why?
There are restrictions on names in Denmark. We have a positive
list of approved first names. If anyone wants to see them, they
http://www.familiestyrelsen.dk/soeginavnelister/godkendtefornavne/
Click on the menu links "Pigenavne" for girls and "Drengenavne"
for boys.
A generation ago these lists were much shorter. We have a rule
about people who come to our country. If they have a name which
is an accepted name in their home country, this name will be
accepted and entered into the list. So the lists have been
exploding.
I assume you amend your list only for immigrants and not for folks just passing through.

Still, how do you determine whether a name is an accepted name in a country which keeps no such list?

For instance, is "Moon Unit" an accepted name in the U.S.? "Jermajesty"? "Blanket"?

And what happens if an immigrant's name is deemed to be unacceptable? Is the person allowed to keep it but not to pass it on to his or her children?

Best,
Helen
Bertel Lund Hansen
2014-10-28 07:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helen Lacedaemonian
I assume you amend your list only for immigrants and not for
folks just passing through.
Yes, only Danish citizens can affect the list.
Post by Helen Lacedaemonian
Still, how do you determine whether a name is an accepted name
in a country which keeps no such list?
I do not know.
Post by Helen Lacedaemonian
And what happens if an immigrant's name is deemed to be
unacceptable? Is the person allowed to keep it but not to pass
it on to his or her children?
They are kicked back to where they came from.

(I don't know that either)
--
Bertel, Denmark
Charles Bishop
2014-10-28 16:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Don Phillipson
unrelated to social class. What other countries restricted
naming and why?
There are restrictions on names in Denmark. We have a positive
list of approved first names. If anyone wants to see them, they
http://www.familiestyrelsen.dk/soeginavnelister/godkendtefornavne/
Click on the menu links "Pigenavne" for girls and "Drengenavne"
for boys.
A generation ago these lists were much shorter. We have a rule
about people who come to our country. If they have a name which
is an accepted name in their home country, this name will be
accepted and entered into the list. So the lists have been
exploding.
It is possible to make up a new name and apply for it to be
accepted, but some board has to approve it.
Much easier to pay someone (I'm available) to come to your country with
a name that's wanted, have it entered onto the list, and Bob's (or the
Danish equivalent) their uncle (OTDE).
--
charles
Bertel Lund Hansen
2014-10-28 21:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Bishop
Much easier to pay someone (I'm available) to come to your
country with a name that's wanted, have it entered onto the
list, and Bob's (or the Danish equivalent) their uncle (OTDE).
We do not have an expression like "Bob's your uncle". We can say
"Then that goat has been shaved". We also have another expression
a bit vulgar but not much, but it doesn't sound well in English:
"Then that fart has been farted".
--
Bertel, Denmark
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2014-10-28 13:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Phillipson
. . . -- in a number
of countries, there are legal restrictions on taking on (or giving
children) names that imply a noble title to which one is not
entitled.
Can GW name one of these countries? France will not do
because France (up to some date I have forgotten) allowed
only personal names from an approved list of historic and
Christian names: no unlisted name was allowed. (I once
worked for a Frenchman inordinately proud that his legal
name was Tony which is unlisted. As a Jew and a Free
Frenchman in England, he got his birth records in France
destroyed during WW2, and when reorganizing his documents
after the war managed via Gaullist connections to get himself
listed as Tony rather than Antoine.) I.e. the old French law
disallowed Duc or Comte just the same as Dweezle or
Moon Unit, and for reasons of logic or "ordre sociale,"
unrelated to social class. What other countries restricted
naming and why?
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
--
athel
James Silverton
2014-10-28 13:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Don Phillipson
. . . -- in a number
of countries, there are legal restrictions on taking on (or giving
children) names that imply a noble title to which one is not
entitled.
Can GW name one of these countries? France will not do
because France (up to some date I have forgotten) allowed
only personal names from an approved list of historic and
Christian names: no unlisted name was allowed. (I once
worked for a Frenchman inordinately proud that his legal
name was Tony which is unlisted. As a Jew and a Free
Frenchman in England, he got his birth records in France
destroyed during WW2, and when reorganizing his documents
after the war managed via Gaullist connections to get himself
listed as Tony rather than Antoine.) I.e. the old French law
disallowed Duc or Comte just the same as Dweezle or
Moon Unit, and for reasons of logic or "ordre sociale,"
unrelated to social class. What other countries restricted
naming and why?
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he wasn't
allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav, saying
that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it wasn't,
but the registrar accepted it.
I remember a long fight in France about two Bretons who wanted to call
their child "Patrick" rather than "Patrice". I think the fight went on
for nearly twenty years with the son not being called for
militaryservice since the parents refused to fill in any forms with
"Patrice".
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.
Charles Bishop
2014-10-28 16:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Don Phillipson
. . . -- in a number
of countries, there are legal restrictions on taking on (or giving
children) names that imply a noble title to which one is not
entitled.
Can GW name one of these countries? France will not do
because France (up to some date I have forgotten) allowed
only personal names from an approved list of historic and
Christian names: no unlisted name was allowed. (I once
worked for a Frenchman inordinately proud that his legal
name was Tony which is unlisted. As a Jew and a Free
Frenchman in England, he got his birth records in France
destroyed during WW2, and when reorganizing his documents
after the war managed via Gaullist connections to get himself
listed as Tony rather than Antoine.) I.e. the old French law
disallowed Duc or Comte just the same as Dweezle or
Moon Unit, and for reasons of logic or "ordre sociale,"
unrelated to social class. What other countries restricted
naming and why?
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
I can see how he could see this as biting his thumb at the powers that
be, but how does it help get his daughter the name he wanted for her.
It's likely she'll spend some time explaining the spelling and origin of
her second name.
--
charlss
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2014-10-28 17:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Don Phillipson
. . . -- in a number
of countries, there are legal restrictions on taking on (or giving
children) names that imply a noble title to which one is not
entitled.
Can GW name one of these countries? France will not do
because France (up to some date I have forgotten) allowed
only personal names from an approved list of historic and
Christian names: no unlisted name was allowed. (I once
worked for a Frenchman inordinately proud that his legal
name was Tony which is unlisted. As a Jew and a Free
Frenchman in England, he got his birth records in France
destroyed during WW2, and when reorganizing his documents
after the war managed via Gaullist connections to get himself
listed as Tony rather than Antoine.) I.e. the old French law
disallowed Duc or Comte just the same as Dweezle or
Moon Unit, and for reasons of logic or "ordre sociale,"
unrelated to social class. What other countries restricted
naming and why?
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
I can see how he could see this as biting his thumb at the powers that
be, but how does it help get his daughter the name he wanted for her.
It's likely she'll spend some time explaining the spelling and origin of
her second name.
That's what I thought as well, but he didn't consult me before doing it.
--
athel
Mike Barnes
2014-10-28 17:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Don Phillipson
. . . -- in a number
of countries, there are legal restrictions on taking on (or giving
children) names that imply a noble title to which one is not
entitled.
Can GW name one of these countries? France will not do
because France (up to some date I have forgotten) allowed
only personal names from an approved list of historic and
Christian names: no unlisted name was allowed. (I once
worked for a Frenchman inordinately proud that his legal
name was Tony which is unlisted. As a Jew and a Free
Frenchman in England, he got his birth records in France
destroyed during WW2, and when reorganizing his documents
after the war managed via Gaullist connections to get himself
listed as Tony rather than Antoine.) I.e. the old French law
disallowed Duc or Comte just the same as Dweezle or
Moon Unit, and for reasons of logic or "ordre sociale,"
unrelated to social class. What other countries restricted
naming and why?
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
I can see how he could see this as biting his thumb at the powers that
be, but how does it help get his daughter the name he wanted for her.
It's likely she'll spend some time explaining the spelling and origin of
her second name.
I'd have made her second name the same as her first name, but I don't
know whether that's allowable.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Adam Funk
2014-10-28 17:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
I can see how he could see this as biting his thumb at the powers that
be, but how does it help get his daughter the name he wanted for her.
It's likely she'll spend some time explaining the spelling and origin of
her second name.
I'd have made her second name the same as her first name, but I don't
know whether that's allowable.
Major Major Major
--
The internet is quite simply a glorious place. Where else can you find
bootlegged music and films, questionable women, deep seated xenophobia
and amusing cats all together in the same place? [Tom Belshaw]
James Hogg
2014-10-28 18:15:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
I can see how he could see this as biting his thumb at the powers that
be, but how does it help get his daughter the name he wanted for her.
It's likely she'll spend some time explaining the spelling and origin of
her second name.
I'd have made her second name the same as her first name, but I don't
know whether that's allowable.
Major Major Major
It worked for Boutros Boutros Ghalileo Ghalilei.
--
James
Steve Hayes
2014-10-29 05:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Hogg
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
I can see how he could see this as biting his thumb at the powers that
be, but how does it help get his daughter the name he wanted for her.
It's likely she'll spend some time explaining the spelling and origin of
her second name.
I'd have made her second name the same as her first name, but I don't
know whether that's allowable.
Major Major Major
It worked for Boutros Boutros Ghalileo Ghalilei.
James James Morrison Morrison Wetherby George Dupree.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Sam Plusnet
2014-10-29 19:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by James Hogg
Post by Adam Funk
Major Major Major
It worked for Boutros Boutros Ghalileo Ghalilei.
James James Morrison Morrison Wetherby George Dupree.
Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew
--
Sam
Guy Barry
2014-10-30 10:13:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by James Hogg
Post by Adam Funk
Major Major Major
It worked for Boutros Boutros Ghalileo Ghalilei.
James James Morrison Morrison Wetherby George Dupree.
Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew
Those were two different Pughs.

Question: why was it deemed necessary to refer to Barney McGrew by both
names, even though there was no other McGrew to distinguish him from, while
the two Pughs had to make do with surname only?
--
Guy Barry
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2014-10-30 12:36:41 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:13:41 -0000, "Guy Barry"
Post by Guy Barry
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by James Hogg
Post by Adam Funk
Major Major Major
It worked for Boutros Boutros Ghalileo Ghalilei.
James James Morrison Morrison Wetherby George Dupree.
Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew
Those were two different Pughs.
Question: why was it deemed necessary to refer to Barney McGrew by both
names, even though there was no other McGrew to distinguish him from, while
the two Pughs had to make do with surname only?
Rhythm perhaps. The full roll-call was "Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew,
Cuthbert, Dibble, Grub".

The Pughs were twins.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Guy Barry
2014-10-31 10:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:13:41 -0000, "Guy Barry"
Post by Guy Barry
Question: why was it deemed necessary to refer to Barney McGrew by both
names, even though there was no other McGrew to distinguish him from, while
the two Pughs had to make do with surname only?
Rhythm perhaps. The full roll-call was "Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew,
Cuthbert, Dibble, Grub".
"Grubb" I think.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The Pughs were twins.
http://youtu.be/s6YE4PCRNwc
The music's wrong on that clip. Here's one with the original fire brigade
music (though it cuts off partway through):


--
Guy Barry
the Omrud
2014-10-30 14:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Barry
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by James Hogg
Post by Adam Funk
Major Major Major
It worked for Boutros Boutros Ghalileo Ghalilei.
James James Morrison Morrison Wetherby George Dupree.
Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew
Those were two different Pughs.
Question: why was it deemed necessary to refer to Barney McGrew by both
names, even though there was no other McGrew to distinguish him from,
while the two Pughs had to make do with surname only?
Poetry. Poetry is truth.
--
David
Helen Lacedaemonian
2014-10-30 16:15:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by Guy Barry
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by James Hogg
Post by Adam Funk
Major Major Major
It worked for Boutros Boutros Ghalileo Ghalilei.
James James Morrison Morrison Wetherby George Dupree.
Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew
Those were two different Pughs.
Question: why was it deemed necessary to refer to Barney McGrew by both
names, even though there was no other McGrew to distinguish him from,
while the two Pughs had to make do with surname only?
Poetry. Poetry is truth.
... and truth, poetry. That is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

Best,
Helen
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2014-10-28 18:39:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
I can see how he could see this as biting his thumb at the powers that
be, but how does it help get his daughter the name he wanted for her.
It's likely she'll spend some time explaining the spelling and origin of
her second name.
I'd have made her second name the same as her first name, but I don't
know whether that's allowable.
Major Major Major
Eventually Major Major Major Major
--
athel
Adam Funk
2014-10-28 19:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
I can see how he could see this as biting his thumb at the powers that
be, but how does it help get his daughter the name he wanted for her.
It's likely she'll spend some time explaining the spelling and origin of
her second name.
I'd have made her second name the same as her first name, but I don't
know whether that's allowable.
Major Major Major
Eventually Major Major Major Major
Yabbut that was rank + names.
--
Thinking about her this morning, lying in bed, and trying to get my
thoughts on the right track, I reached into the drawer of the bedstand,
and found the Gideons' Bible, and I was going for the Psalms, friend, honest
I was, but I found the Song of Solomon instead. --- Garrison Keillor
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2014-10-29 14:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
I can see how he could see this as biting his thumb at the powers that
be, but how does it help get his daughter the name he wanted for her.
It's likely she'll spend some time explaining the spelling and origin of
her second name.
I'd have made her second name the same as her first name, but I don't
know whether that's allowable.
Major Major Major
Eventually Major Major Major Major
Yabbut that was rank + names.
True, but his father chose that name in hope that he would eventually
be able to add the fourth part.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2014-10-28 18:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ … ]
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he
wasn't allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav,
saying that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it
wasn't, but the registrar accepted it.
I can see how he could see this as biting his thumb at the powers that
be, but how does it help get his daughter the name he wanted for her.
It's likely she'll spend some time explaining the spelling and origin of
her second name.
I'd have made her second name the same as her first name, but I don't
know whether that's allowable.
I think he tried that first, but was disallowed.
--
athel
Robert Bannister
2014-10-29 00:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Swizerland requires you to have at least two. Someone we know who lives
in Geneva wanted to call his daughter Valeria (tout court) but he wasn't
allowed to do that. So he registered her second name as Airelav, saying
that it was a Bulgarian name. Robert would have known that it wasn't,
but the registrar accepted it.
It doesn't sound too bad if you pronounce it German-style with an F
sound at the end, but for English eyes, it does resemble an open-air toilet.
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
Charles Bishop
2014-10-28 16:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Just what _is_ a "noblewoman" in the first place? In what European
countries does nobility still exist? I don't mean the descendents
of historical nobility that may still lug a title around as part
of their name and whose antics entertain the yellow press. In mean
nobility as a legally distinguished part of society with special
privileges etc.
Well, naming is a big part of the "special privilege" -- in a number
of countries, there are legal restrictions on taking on (or giving
children) names that imply a noble title to which one is not
entitled. I don't quite understand what the point is, but I suppose
when a Name is all you have left of your former importance....
(I find titles of pretense to be far more incomprehensible --
particularly when there is more than one pretender claiming the
long-abolished title. It's one thing to be an old hereditary monarch
hanging around after being overthrown in a military coup, but a rather
different thing entirely to claim to be the "rightful" King of France
because you don't recognize the legitimacy of the Treaty of Utrecht
1713.)
Emperor Norton disagrees and would crave a word with you.
--
charles, scattering largess
J. J. Lodder
2014-10-29 21:44:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Just what _is_ a "noblewoman" in the first place? In what European
countries does nobility still exist? I don't mean the descendents
of historical nobility that may still lug a title around as part
of their name and whose antics entertain the yellow press. In mean
nobility as a legally distinguished part of society with special
privileges etc.
Well, naming is a big part of the "special privilege" -- in a number
of countries, there are legal restrictions on taking on (or giving
children) names that imply a noble title to which one is not
entitled. I don't quite understand what the point is, but I suppose
when a Name is all you have left of your former importance....
(I find titles of pretense to be far more incomprehensible --
particularly when there is more than one pretender claiming the
long-abolished title. It's one thing to be an old hereditary monarch
hanging around after being overthrown in a military coup, but a rather
different thing entirely to claim to be the "rightful" King of France
because you don't recognize the legitimacy of the Treaty of Utrecht
1713.)
The rightful Kings of France base (h.t. Comte de Paris)
their claim on being descendants of Louis Philippe. (d'Orleans)
The treaty of Utrecht (if applicable)
excludes only pretenders of the Spanish branch,

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2014-10-29 21:44:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
What puzzles me most is the "Noblewoman" mentioned as the owner of the
Magritte here: [...]
Is she really a noblewoman?
Just what _is_ a "noblewoman" in the first place? In what European
countries does nobility still exist?
Belgium for example, which is what we are probably talking about.

Germany (where all nobility was abolished
with the Weimar constitution of 1919)
is an exception rather than the rule,

Jan
Christian Weisgerber
2014-10-30 14:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Just what _is_ a "noblewoman" in the first place? In what European
countries does nobility still exist?
Belgium for example, which is what we are probably talking about.
Germany (where all nobility was abolished
with the Weimar constitution of 1919)
is an exception rather than the rule,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility#European_nobility
| Various republics, including former Iron Curtain countries, Greece,
| Mexico, and Austria have expressly abolished the conferral and use of
| titles of nobility for their citizens. This is distinct from countries
| which have not abolished the right to inherit titles, but which do not
| grant legal recognition or protection to them, such as Germany and
| Italy, although Germany recognizes their use as part of the legal
| surname. Still other countries and authorities allow their use, but
| forbid attachment of any privilege thereto, e.g. Finland, France, Norway
| and the European Union, although French law also protects lawful titles
| against usurpation.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Horace LaBadie
2014-10-27 21:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isabelle Cecchini
Is she really a noblewoman? Would that still matter in the United States
if she were? I couldn't find any "nobleman" to keep her company in the
remainder of the catalogue.
"As a race, we do certainly love a lord--let him be Croker, or a duke,
or a prize-fighter, or whatever other personage shall chance to be the
head of our group. Many years ago, I saw a greasy youth in overalls
standing by the Herald office, with an expectant look in his face. Soon
a large man passed out, and gave him a pat on the shoulder. That was
what the boy was waiting for--the large man's notice. The pat made him
proud and happy, and the exultation inside of him shone out through his
eyes; and his mates were there to see the pat and envy it and wish they
could have that glory. The boy belonged down cellar in the press-room,
the large man was king of the upper floors, foreman of the
composing-room. The light in the boy's face was worship, the foreman was
his lord, head of his group. The pat was an accolade. It was as precious
to the boy as it would have been if he had been an aristocrat's son and
the accolade had been delivered by his sovereign with a sword. The
quintessence of the honor was all there; there was no difference in
values; in truth there was no difference present except an artificial
one --clothes.

All the human race loves a lord--that is, loves to look upon or be
noticed by the possessor of Power or Conspicuousness; and sometimes
animals, born to better things and higher ideals, descend to man's level
in this matter. In the Jardin des Plantes I have seen a cat that was so
vain of being the personal friend of an elephant that I was ashamed of
her."

Does the Race of Man Love a Lord?
<http://www.online-literature.com/twain/3263/>
Joe Fineman
2014-10-28 17:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
All the human race loves a lord--that is, loves to look upon or be
noticed by the possessor of Power or Conspicuousness; and sometimes
animals, born to better things and higher ideals, descend to man's
level in this matter. In the Jardin des Plantes I have seen a cat that
was so vain of being the personal friend of an elephant that I was
ashamed of her."
Does the Race of Man Love a Lord?
<http://www.online-literature.com/twain/3263/>
I am his Highness' dog at Kew.
Pray tell me, Sir, whose dog are you?

-- Engraved on the collar of a dog given to the Prince of Wales by
Alexander Pope
--
--- Joe Fineman ***@verizon.net

||: Don't worry that children never listen to you; worry that :||
||: they are always watching you. :||
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