Discussion:
Joy's website (Was Re: Lift v. Elevator question for Brits)
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Lewis
2017-10-01 12:04:02 UTC
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Hey Joy, I had a quick and simple suggestion for your website that
involves adding just a few of lines and I think would make your pages
easier for people to read, especially on the current crop of screens
that are 2000 pixels (or more!) wide:

In the <head>

<style> div {width: 40em; margin: 0 auto; } </style>

Then, right after <body> add a <div> and right before </body> add a
</div>

Play with the value until the width "looks good"

One nice thing about this is that if someone increases the text size
for readability, it keeps the over-all line length the same.

Here's a screenshot of what it looks like:

<Loading Image...
--
For a very few, the sky's the limit. And, sometimes, not even that.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-01 12:30:58 UTC
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Post by Lewis
Hey Joy, I had a quick and simple suggestion for your website that
involves adding just a few of lines and I think would make your pages
easier for people to read, especially on the current crop of screens
In the <head>
<style> div {width: 40em; margin: 0 auto; } </style>
Then, right after <body> add a <div> and right before </body> add a
</div>
Play with the value until the width "looks good"
One nice thing about this is that if someone increases the text size
for readability, it keeps the over-all line length the same.
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/y07sg8bpatvtrpi/Screenshot%202017-10-01%2005.58.52.png?dl=0>
OK, that's a geekish opinion, but I find Joy's pages just fine as they
are. She obviously thinks content is more important than design, and so
do I. I don't often use iCab any more on my portable (though I use it
in my office) because it crashes too often with modern versions of the
OS, but I tried it on Joy's pages and it agrees that there is nothing
wrong with them: it displays a green smiley face on pages it likes,
which means on extremely few pages. It displays a red scowling face on
yours, but that may be Dropbox's fault rather than yours.
--
athel
Lewis
2017-10-01 14:39:31 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Hey Joy, I had a quick and simple suggestion for your website that
involves adding just a few of lines and I think would make your pages
easier for people to read, especially on the current crop of screens
In the <head>
<style> div {width: 40em; margin: 0 auto; } </style>
Then, right after <body> add a <div> and right before </body> add a
</div>
Play with the value until the width "looks good"
One nice thing about this is that if someone increases the text size
for readability, it keeps the over-all line length the same.
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/y07sg8bpatvtrpi/Screenshot%202017-10-01%2005.58.52.png?dl=0>
OK, that's a geekish opinion, but I find Joy's pages just fine as they
are.
If you have a large screen and a browser setup for things like Youtube (wide)
then the page is largely unreadable as the text will span the entire width of
the page.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
it agrees that there is nothing wrong with them: it displays a green smiley
face on pages it likes,
I never said there was anything wrong with the page. I suggested a very slight
change that would improve the page.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
which means on extremely few pages. It displays a red scowling face on
yours, but that may be Dropbox's fault rather than yours.
I posted an image on Dropbox, there is no HTML or CSS that I posted anywhere.

The code that I suggested is entirely compliant.
--
By the way, I think you might be the prettiest girl I've ever seen
outside the pages of a really filthy magazine
John Dunlop
2017-10-02 14:45:25 UTC
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Post by Lewis
Hey Joy, I had a quick and simple suggestion for your website that
involves adding just a few of lines and I think would make your pages
easier for people to read, especially on the current crop of screens
In the <head>
<style> div {width: 40em; margin: 0 auto; } </style>
Or for more fluidity, set the "max-width" property. But yes, the idea is
sound, and one I wish more authors would adopt.

(Note that if the author is using HTML older than version 5, as someone
who is still marking up pages by hand may well be, the "type" attribute
of the STYLE element is required.)
--
John
Joy Beeson
2017-10-06 13:30:34 UTC
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On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 12:04:02 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Hey Joy, I had a quick and simple suggestion for your website that
involves adding just a few of lines and I think would make your pages
easier for people to read, especially on the current crop of screens
In the <head>
<style> div {width: 40em; margin: 0 auto; } </style>
Then, right after <body> add a <div> and right before </body> add a
</div>
Play with the value until the width "looks good"
One nice thing about this is that if someone increases the text size
for readability, it keeps the over-all line length the same.
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/y07sg8bpatvtrpi/Screenshot%202017-10-01%2005.58.52.png?dl=0>
Since I browse and read news on different computers, I've just now (4
October) gotten around to looking at the screenshot. I had to click
"view image" to see the whole thing, and Dropbox was reluctant to let
me do that. I'm glad I don't need Dropbox!

I added the div code to my current diary, which is on the Web, but not
linked. (I e-mail the URL
<http://wlweather.net/LETTERS/2017BANN/OCTBAN17.HTM> to immediate
family when it's finished.) When viewing it, the lines ran off the
right edge of the page before the type size got up to
cataract-friendly.

<Loading Image...>
<Loading Image...>

I see that the problem is in measuring the line in ems; when the type
gets bigger, the em gets bigger.

Then I validated it. As noted downthread, the code needs the word
"type" in there somewhere.

I'll experiment with the "maximum length" suggested downthread when I
get time. (It's nap time now; may not send this until tomorrow.) When
it's worked out, only new pages and newly marked-up* pages will get
it.

* a large percentage of Rough Sewing is still in plain text.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

<Loading Image...>
<Loading Image...>

"Max width" did the trick.

Then I had a long talk with W3C; I never bothered to learn anything
but paragraphs, headers, links, images, and Table of Contents, so it
took some fumbling around to figure out that "type" belongs inside the
angle brackets with "style".

Validating didn't change the appearance, except for deleting a stray
horizontal rule that somehow wandered in, so I didn't take another
screenshot.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Snidely
2017-10-11 09:27:07 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 12:04:02 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Hey Joy, I had a quick and simple suggestion for your website that
involves adding just a few of lines and I think would make your pages
easier for people to read, especially on the current crop of screens
In the <head>
<style> div {width: 40em; margin: 0 auto; } </style>
Then, right after <body> add a <div> and right before </body> add a
</div>
Play with the value until the width "looks good"
One nice thing about this is that if someone increases the text size
for readability, it keeps the over-all line length the same.
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/y07sg8bpatvtrpi/Screenshot%202017-10-01%2005.58.52.png?dl=0>
Since I browse and read news on different computers, I've just now (4
October) gotten around to looking at the screenshot. I had to click
"view image" to see the whole thing,
I didn't. There was a button to go to full-screen, and two other
buttons for zoom +/-. At the unzoomed size, I could almost read the
text.
Post by Joy Beeson
and Dropbox was reluctant to let
me do that.
I didn't have any problem with the buttons, but maybe Dropbox remembers
that I have an account (even though I'm not running the client).
Post by Joy Beeson
I'm glad I don't need Dropbox!
Dropbox's sins are more in the nature of recent changes to drop support
for a default public folder.
Post by Joy Beeson
I added the div code to my current diary, which is on the Web, but not
linked. (I e-mail the URL
<http://wlweather.net/LETTERS/2017BANN/OCTBAN17.HTM> to immediate
family when it's finished.) When viewing it, the lines ran off the
right edge of the page before the type size got up to
cataract-friendly.
Were you using browser zoom feature, or changing the font size.

BTW, when I followed your link at the bottom, the display was just fine
for me, but my lenses are still mostly clear (a few cells may have gone
full apoptosis, but most are still in the normal barely-alive state
that allows them to be clear). Presbyopia is a factor for me, but
arm's length is where they're happym and I believe that a comfortable
size of 'e' at that distance is about 1mm. (I don't seem to have a
ruler in reach.)
Post by Joy Beeson
<http://wlweather.net/LETTERS/2017BANN/SCRNSHT1.JPG>
<http://wlweather.net/LETTERS/2017BANN/SCRNSHT2.JPG>
I see that the problem is in measuring the line in ems; when the type
gets bigger, the em gets bigger.
If you're using the same font, but zooming the browser, it's the
apparent size of the em, sorta like when using a magnifying glass on
physical print. The apparent size of a page (if the magnifying glass
had enough area and no edge effects) wouldn't fit in the book anymore.

/dps
--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl
Joy Beeson
2018-02-24 22:58:02 UTC
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On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 12:04:02 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Hey Joy, I had a quick and simple suggestion for your website that
involves adding just a few of lines and I think would make your pages
easier for people to read, especially on the current crop of screens
In the <head>
<style> div {width: 40em; margin: 0 auto; } </style>
Then, right after <body> add a <div> and right before </body> add a
</div>
Play with the value until the width "looks good"
One nice thing about this is that if someone increases the text size
for readability, it keeps the over-all line length the same.
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/y07sg8bpatvtrpi/Screenshot%202017-10-01%2005.58.52.png?dl=0>
While cleaning up a page recently, I thought I should check in with a
follow-up.

I started introducing the new tag by revising the entrance to the
website:

http://wlweather.net/PAGESEW/ROUGH.HTM

Hmmm . . . it's past time to take out "best viewed in a narrow
window." (Might get that done before posting this.) And I need to
update "dead links removed" -- I've updated "Get Out of Here" several
times since 2013.

<style type="text/css"> div {max-width: 30em; margin: 0 auto; }
</style>
shoved photographs to the right.

Obvious solution was to put "</div> before and <div> after every
photograph -- which, like turning a quarter-inch to the RIGHT side
when making flat-felled seams, was awkward for a while because it's
backwards.

That in turn led me to engage in layout. All reading matter inside
the div, lists of links shoved over to the left, which made it easier
to tell one from the other, and made a link less likely to occupy two
lines. Also, an <hr> marking a minor division went inside the div and
an <hr> marking a major division spans the full width of the screen.

A recent clean-up
http://wlweather.net/PAGESEW/RUFFTEXT/TOOLS/INDEX.HTM gave </div><div>
a workout. I see that I missed one <div></div> between pictures. And
I need to add some comments to "Bodkins" and photograph my other
bodkins.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Tony Cooper
2018-02-25 01:13:26 UTC
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On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:58:02 -0400, Joy Beeson
Post by Joy Beeson
I started introducing the new tag by revising the entrance to the
http://wlweather.net/PAGESEW/ROUGH.HTM
Very readable website, Joy.

I only followed one link: Bike knickers.

Some might question "...but I've been wearing my old black pair to
church." Not the grammar, but the wearing of knickers to church.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Lewis
2018-02-25 02:51:55 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:58:02 -0400, Joy Beeson
Post by Joy Beeson
I started introducing the new tag by revising the entrance to the
http://wlweather.net/PAGESEW/ROUGH.HTM
Very readable website, Joy.
I only followed one link: Bike knickers.
Some might question "...but I've been wearing my old black pair to
church." Not the grammar, but the wearing of knickers to church.
I'd hope most people in church are wearing knickers!
--
"He raised his hammer defiantly and opened his mouth to say, "Oh, yeah?"
but stopped, because just by his ear he heard a growl. It was quite low
and soft, but it had a complex little waveform which went straight down
into a little knobbly bit in his spinal column where it pressed an
ancient button marked Primal Terror."
Joy Beeson
2018-02-25 03:09:18 UTC
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On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 20:13:26 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Some might question "...but I've been wearing my old black pair to
church." Not the grammar, but the wearing of knickers to church.
I wear them under ankle-length skirts. Just climbed up on a stool to
check the note on a pattern hanging on the wall: I made white linen
drawers in 2011, so I don't know why I was wearing old bike knickers
in 2014.

Perhaps I had already begun to use the Trek Pure as a wheelchair: I
don't wear white knickers when I have to hike up my skirts

I don't think I've read that page since 2014 -- I've no idea what
wearing knickers to church had to do with the knees sagging. Reads as
though I had another sentence to put in, but got distracted.

More likely, it was obvious at the time and didn't need to be
elaborated.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Katy Jennison
2018-02-25 10:51:15 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 20:13:26 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Some might question "...but I've been wearing my old black pair to
church." Not the grammar, but the wearing of knickers to church.
I wear them under ankle-length skirts. Just climbed up on a stool to
check the note on a pattern hanging on the wall: I made white linen
drawers in 2011, so I don't know why I was wearing old bike knickers
in 2014.
Perhaps I had already begun to use the Trek Pure as a wheelchair: I
don't wear white knickers when I have to hike up my skirts
I don't think I've read that page since 2014 -- I've no idea what
wearing knickers to church had to do with the knees sagging. Reads as
though I had another sentence to put in, but got distracted.
More likely, it was obvious at the time and didn't need to be
elaborated.
I assumed that if you were cycling to church wearing a skirt, you'd wear
some sort of leg-covering under the skirt. And that the knees would sag
through being knelt on.

I'm enjoying the site. I'm familiar with most of the technical terms,
and with the processes they refer to, but I had to look up "hong-konging".
--
Katy Jennison
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-02-25 11:04:10 UTC
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Post by Katy Jennison
I'm enjoying the site. I'm familiar with most of the technical terms,
and with the processes they refer to, but I had to look up
"hong-konging".
Where did you find it? Google assumes you mean Hong Kong, and provides
endless pages about it.
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2018-02-25 12:17:14 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I'm enjoying the site.  I'm familiar with most of the technical terms,
and with the processes they refer to, but I had to look up
"hong-konging".
Where did you find it? Google assumes you mean Hong Kong, and provides
endless pages about it.
Yes, I got that on my first attempt. I then gave it something like
"hong-kong seam sewing" and that worked, especially Images. (I think
I'd just have called it "bound edges" or something.)
--
Katy Jennison
Joy Beeson
2018-02-27 04:26:39 UTC
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 10:51:15 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
I'm familiar with most of the technical terms,
and with the processes they refer to, but I had to look up "hong-konging".
You realize, of course, that now I have to search the entire site for
"hong-kong" and put in links to the place where I have defined, or
will define, it.

Fortunately, the majority of the files have sequential names, and can
be searched as if they were one long file.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Katy Jennison
2018-02-27 08:11:26 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 10:51:15 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
I'm familiar with most of the technical terms,
and with the processes they refer to, but I had to look up "hong-konging".
You realize, of course, that now I have to search the entire site for
"hong-kong" and put in links to the place where I have defined, or
will define, it.
Fortunately, the majority of the files have sequential names, and can
be searched as if they were one long file.
No, no, don't do that! Looking it up adds to the interest.

I like your wizard suit, by the way, although if you were wearing
matching slippers they seemed to be invisible. But that's wizards, I guess.
--
Katy Jennison
Joy Beeson
2018-03-03 05:42:45 UTC
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On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 08:11:26 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
No, no, don't do that! Looking it up adds to the interest.
I can't throw away my very first content crit! I get a fan letter
every year or two, but never any feedback.

But don't worry; it's already sunk three lines on my To Do list, and
there are still lots of higher-priority tasks below it.

(I add at the top, and occasionally move forgotten items higher.)
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Joy Beeson
2018-04-22 00:54:55 UTC
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On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 01:42:45 -0400, Joy Beeson
Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 08:11:26 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
No, no, don't do that! Looking it up adds to the interest.
I can't throw away my very first content crit! I get a fan letter
every year or two, but never any feedback.
But don't worry; it's already sunk three lines on my To Do list, and
there are still lots of higher-priority tasks below it.
(I add at the top, and occasionally move forgotten items higher.)
A month later, searching for "hong kong" continues to sink down my
to-do list.

The first sixteen items of about fifty:


<!--
<center><b>
&#8250;&#8250;&#8262; &nbsp; To-Do List &nbsp; &#8261;&#8249;&#8249;
</b></center>
<br>
<br>
<br> Carhart pencil pockets, ROUGH011.HTM
<br> Join reflective tape on overmitten
<br> Validate Rough011.HTM
<br> Elastic in ankles of wind pants
<br> Photograph sleeve of black shirt for Edge Finishes
<br> replace "up to TOC" links in ROUGH010.HTM
<br> cut old quilt into 18" x 30" pieces
<br> photograph polish dauber. Re-photograph toothbrush.
<br> check ed.dir of pictures of tools against the links.
<br> Link from casings to bags
<br> two snaps on black raw-silk shirt
<br> firm up hook on everyday jeans
<br> revise ROUGH009.HTM
<br> variegate Speed Cro Sheen and load teaching shuttle
<br> search site for "comcast"
<br> search site for "hong kong"


I should move "search for "comcast" up to the top. It's been at
least four years since those links worked. (I've started the search a
few times. That's how I got to file 11 of 53.)

The "old quilt" is my in-progress project; the pieces are going to the
animal shelter once I've bound the cut edges. I had to DuckDuckGo how
to turn the corner.

The overmitten is a doctor's-office project.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-04-22 07:05:30 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 01:42:45 -0400, Joy Beeson
Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 08:11:26 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
No, no, don't do that! Looking it up adds to the interest.
I can't throw away my very first content crit! I get a fan letter
every year or two, but never any feedback.
But don't worry; it's already sunk three lines on my To Do list, and
there are still lots of higher-priority tasks below it.
(I add at the top, and occasionally move forgotten items higher.)
A month later, searching for "hong kong" continues to sink down my
to-do list.
<!--
<center><b>
&#8250;&#8250;&#8262; &nbsp; To-Do List &nbsp; &#8261;&#8249;&#8249;
</b></center>
<br>
<br>
<br> Carhart pencil pockets, ROUGH011.HTM
<br> Join reflective tape on overmitten
[ ... ]
Post by Joy Beeson
<br> search site for "comcast"
<br> search site for "hong kong"
Why all those <br> tags rather than <li> items between <ol> and </ol>?
(or <ul> ... </ul> if the order is arbitrary?)
Post by Joy Beeson
I should move "search for "comcast" up to the top. It's been at
least four years since those links worked. (I've started the search a
few times. That's how I got to file 11 of 53.)
The "old quilt" is my in-progress project; the pieces are going to the
animal shelter once I've bound the cut edges. I had to DuckDuckGo how
to turn the corner.
The overmitten is a doctor's-office project.
--
athel
Joy Beeson
2018-04-24 04:03:34 UTC
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On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:05:30 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Why all those <br> tags rather than <li> items between <ol> and </ol>?
(or <ul> ... </ul> if the order is arbitrary?)
Ummm . . Because that's what I felt like doing when I started the
list, yea many years ago?

Because I just recently learned how to suppress the bullets?

Because I don't think of a to-do list or a shopping list as a List?

Doesn't really matter; the whole thing is inside a comment. I forget
why I commented it out -- but commenting it was a nuisance because
some of the items had comments, and the validator freaks out over
nested comments. (I also had to change dashes to "- -" after
commenting out the lists.) (It's three lists: "to do" "back burner"
and "fantasy".

The validator doesn't like un-ordered lists much, either. It was
during my attempts to find out why that I learned how to suppress the
bullets. But bullet-suppression calls for code that I find
aesthetically offensive, so the proof-of-principle page is probably
the only one that will get it.

The un-ordered lists it objects to are Tables of Contents, but I don't
think there is any way the validator could know that a list is a
table.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Lewis
2018-04-24 13:38:35 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:05:30 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Why all those <br> tags rather than <li> items between <ol> and </ol>?
(or <ul> ... </ul> if the order is arbitrary?)
Ummm . . Because that's what I felt like doing when I started the
list, yea many years ago?
Because I just recently learned how to suppress the bullets?
Because I don't think of a to-do list or a shopping list as a List?
Doesn't really matter; the whole thing is inside a comment. I forget
why I commented it out -- but commenting it was a nuisance because
some of the items had comments, and the validator freaks out over
nested comments. (I also had to change dashes to "- -" after
commenting out the lists.) (It's three lists: "to do" "back burner"
and "fantasy".
The validator doesn't like un-ordered lists much, either. It was
during my attempts to find out why that I learned how to suppress the
bullets. But bullet-suppression calls for code that I find
aesthetically offensive, so the proof-of-principle page is probably
the only one that will get it.
Bullet suppression (like all appearance stuff) should be done in CSS.

ul {
list-style-type: none;
}
Post by Joy Beeson
The un-ordered lists it objects to are Tables of Contents, but I don't
think there is any way the validator could know that a list is a
table.
A list is not a table.
--
"You're an elf and you're going to wear panties like an elf."
Joy Beeson
2018-05-10 00:42:42 UTC
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On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 13:38:35 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Joy Beeson
The validator doesn't like un-ordered lists much, either. It was
during my attempts to find out why that I learned how to suppress the
bullets. But bullet-suppression calls for code that I find
aesthetically offensive, so the proof-of-principle page is probably
the only one that will get it.
Bullet suppression (like all appearance stuff) should be done in CSS.
ul {
list-style-type: none;
}
CSS is what I find aesthetically offensive[1]. Anyhow, aren't bullets
the whole point of using <ul><li> instead of <br>?

Well, that and sub-lists.
Post by Lewis
Post by Joy Beeson
The un-ordered lists it objects to are Tables of Contents, but I don't
think there is any way the validator could know that a list is a
table.
A list is not a table.
A list can be presented as a one-row table. <ul> presents it as a
one-column table.

Total tangent: this reminds me that the "tab" key on a keyboard was
originally added to allow the typing of tables. There were little
thingys that could be slid along a bar to stop the platen in different
places. It seems to me that I always used the space bar instead,
since all I ever wanted to do was to indent the first line of a
paragraph, but I give tab stops a workout in my text-editing program.

Now that I mention it, the ruler line in my word processor is a lot
like the bar behind the platen on a typewriter.



[1] CSS is offensive *in this context*. It would be like sewing a
hammer loop and a trowel pocket on a bathing suit.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Lewis
2018-05-10 03:32:17 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 13:38:35 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Joy Beeson
The validator doesn't like un-ordered lists much, either. It was
during my attempts to find out why that I learned how to suppress the
bullets. But bullet-suppression calls for code that I find
aesthetically offensive, so the proof-of-principle page is probably
the only one that will get it.
Bullet suppression (like all appearance stuff) should be done in CSS.
ul {
list-style-type: none;
}
CSS is what I find aesthetically offensive[1]. Anyhow, aren't bullets
the whole point of using <ul><li> instead of <br>?
Nope. You are still thinking of HTML as a layout/design language, and it
moved away from that about 20 years ago.

HTML is to describe the CONTENT and CSS is to describe the APPEARANCE.

One of the large advantages of properly using HTML and CSS is that both
machines and disabled people who rely on machines can access and process
the information efficiently.

So, for example, if you define a list of items, a screen reader (or a
search engine crawler) will see that list of items. If you have random
words with <br>, neither will have any idea what those words are.

When you add a definition to a page, you can use CSS to determine how that
definition appears, and when. For example, you could have the word with
a definition show a different background, and then float the definition
when the mouse moves over the word. Or, by changing the CSS, you could
have the definitions show in the margin to the right, near the word. Or a
list at the bottom of the page. Or do all three depending on the size of
the users browser.

All without touching the HTML of the file at all.

Same content. Same information. Machine readable. Accessible.

Think of HTML as the plain text file that a book is printed from; CSS is
the font, margins, leading, kerning, chapter headings, position of
footnotes, images, and pull quotes. CSS tell the book where to put the
page numbers and chapter names and author on each page, or if to include
that information at all. Do you want a drop-cap to start your chapters?
That's all CSS. You can change the layout dramatically, but still have
the "same" book because you haven't touch the author's words.
Post by Joy Beeson
Well, that and sub-lists.
Post by Lewis
Post by Joy Beeson
The un-ordered lists it objects to are Tables of Contents, but I don't
think there is any way the validator could know that a list is a
table.
A list is not a table.
A list can be presented as a one-row table. <ul> presents it as a
one-column table.
No, a table is a very specific thing used for one thing only, presenting
tabular data. It is MISused often in an attempt to do page layout, but
that is absolutely not what it is for.
Post by Joy Beeson
[1] CSS is offensive *in this context*. It would be like sewing a
hammer loop and a trowel pocket on a bathing suit.
Not at all. The proper use of CSS allows you to take the same content
(HTML) and make it appear anyway you want and still maintain the proper
document structure. It is an exceptionally powerful way to create web
content when used properly.
--
A lot of people and the smell of sausages meant a performance of the
street theatre that was life in Ankh-Morpork.
Rich Ulrich
2018-05-10 16:15:18 UTC
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On Thu, 10 May 2018 03:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
...
Post by Lewis
Nope. You are still thinking of HTML as a layout/design language, and it
moved away from that about 20 years ago.
HTML is to describe the CONTENT and CSS is to describe the APPEARANCE.
One of the large advantages of properly using HTML and CSS is that both
machines and disabled people who rely on machines can access and process
the information efficiently.
...

Thanks for the rundown.

I last constructed (crude) web pages 20 years ago,
using HTML, all by hand.

I see that if I should read about CSS if I ever want to
do that sort of thing again. Whatever CSS stands for.
--
Rich Ulrich
Peter Moylan
2018-05-10 16:50:45 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 10 May 2018 03:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
...
Post by Lewis
Nope. You are still thinking of HTML as a layout/design language, and it
moved away from that about 20 years ago.
HTML is to describe the CONTENT and CSS is to describe the APPEARANCE.
One of the large advantages of properly using HTML and CSS is that both
machines and disabled people who rely on machines can access and process
the information efficiently.
...
Thanks for the rundown.
I last constructed (crude) web pages 20 years ago,
using HTML, all by hand.
I see that if I should read about CSS if I ever want to
do that sort of thing again. Whatever CSS stands for.
CSS can be thought of as the third generation of HTML.

Generation 1: HTML specifies the content. The appearance is completely
under the control of the client.

Generation 2: yes, but we can't trust the client to display the page in
the way that we want it to be displayed, so we are overriding the client
preferences.

Generation 3: our preferences are in this style sheet. The client can of
course supply his own style sheet, but we are confident that he won't
know how to do that.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
David Kleinecke
2018-05-10 16:53:17 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 10 May 2018 03:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
...
Post by Lewis
Nope. You are still thinking of HTML as a layout/design language, and it
moved away from that about 20 years ago.
HTML is to describe the CONTENT and CSS is to describe the APPEARANCE.
One of the large advantages of properly using HTML and CSS is that both
machines and disabled people who rely on machines can access and process
the information efficiently.
...
Thanks for the rundown.
I last constructed (crude) web pages 20 years ago,
using HTML, all by hand.
I see that if I should read about CSS if I ever want to
do that sort of thing again. Whatever CSS stands for.
Cascading Style Sheets.

The situation is as Lewis explained. Whether that is a good
idea remains an open question.

I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web
page to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would
want the layout under my control. Were I to write an opinion
piece and post it to AUE I have no objection to readers CSS-ing
the devil out of it.

Most usenet readers are quite distant from CSS.
s***@gowanhill.com
2018-05-10 21:00:00 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web
page to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would
want the layout under my control.
The problems with that are that people use a variety of browsers and devices, and if your shoe shop website doesn't work on a 21" high res screen /and/ a 52" smart TV /and/ a smartphone you'll lose customers.

In the UK you'd probably also fall foul of disability equality legislation if your site also doesn't work with a screen reader and speech or tactile output.

Owain
Tony Cooper
2018-05-10 22:18:07 UTC
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Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by David Kleinecke
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web
page to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would
want the layout under my control.
The problems with that are that people use a variety of browsers and devices, and if your shoe shop website doesn't work on a 21" high res screen /and/ a 52" smart TV /and/ a smartphone you'll lose customers.
In the UK you'd probably also fall foul of disability equality legislation if your site also doesn't work with a screen reader and speech or tactile output.
Owain
I don't understand David's complaint. Using CSS is something the
originator of the website determines to set the layout of the page.
The originator doesn't lose control. It's just a way to control
various aspects in one block of instruction.

I've used HTML for basic webpages, and bought a book on CSS -
"Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) By Example" Que Press- but never got
around to really getting into it.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2018-05-10 22:36:19 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by David Kleinecke
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web
page to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would
want the layout under my control.
The problems with that are that people use a variety of browsers and
devices, and if your shoe shop website doesn't work on a 21" high
res screen /and/ a 52" smart TV /and/ a smartphone you'll lose
customers.
In the UK you'd probably also fall foul of disability equality
legislation if your site also doesn't work with a screen reader and
speech or tactile output.
I don't understand David's complaint. Using CSS is something the
originator of the website determines to set the layout of the page.
The originator doesn't lose control. It's just a way to control
various aspects in one block of instruction.
That's right - and on the other hand, the client can always override
all of that. If you want actual control over your formatting, you use
the likes of pdf. I've seen brick-and-mortar stores supply pdf
catalogues online quite recently, but no online store would want that.
--
Manche Dinge sind vorgeschrieben, weil man sie braucht, andere
braucht man nur, weil sie vorgeschrieben sind.
-- Helmut Richter in de.etc.sprache.deutsch
Peter Moylan
2018-05-11 02:52:34 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web page
to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would want
the layout under my control.
The problems with that are that people use a variety of browsers
and devices, and if your shoe shop website doesn't work on a 21"
high res screen /and/ a 52" smart TV /and/ a smartphone you'll lose
customers.
In the UK you'd probably also fall foul of disability equality
legislation if your site also doesn't work with a screen reader and
speech or tactile output.
I don't understand David's complaint. Using CSS is something the
originator of the website determines to set the layout of the page.
The originator doesn't lose control. It's just a way to control
various aspects in one block of instruction.
The client can supply a replacement style sheet that overrides the
author's choice. Most people don't, but it's possible in principle.
Post by Tony Cooper
I've used HTML for basic webpages, and bought a book on CSS -
"Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) By Example" Que Press- but never got
around to really getting into it.
I don't use CSS on my own web site because I believe in the original
HTML goal of letting the reader choose things like fonts. But then I'm
not selling anything.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-11 08:38:32 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web page
to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would want
the layout under my control.
The problems with that are that people use a variety of browsers
and devices, and if your shoe shop website doesn't work on a 21"
high res screen /and/ a 52" smart TV /and/ a smartphone you'll lose
customers.
In the UK you'd probably also fall foul of disability equality
legislation if your site also doesn't work with a screen reader and
speech or tactile output.
I don't understand David's complaint. Using CSS is something the
originator of the website determines to set the layout of the page.
The originator doesn't lose control. It's just a way to control
various aspects in one block of instruction.
The client can supply a replacement style sheet that overrides the
author's choice. Most people don't, but it's possible in principle.
Post by Tony Cooper
I've used HTML for basic webpages, and bought a book on CSS -
"Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) By Example" Que Press- but never got
around to really getting into it.
I don't use CSS on my own web site because I believe in the original
HTML goal of letting the reader choose things like fonts. But then I'm
not selling anything.
I use CSS, but I don't use it to set things that are not my business.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-11 08:36:05 UTC
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Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by David Kleinecke
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web
page to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would
want the layout under my control.
The problems with that are that people use a variety of browsers and
devices, and if your shoe shop website doesn't work on a 21" high res
screen /and/ a 52" smart TV /and/ a smartphone you'll lose customers.
In the UK you'd probably also fall foul of disability equality
legislation if your site also doesn't work with a screen reader and
speech or tactile output.
At least in the past, the UK Government didn't consider that such
legislation applied to their own web sites. The French Government takes
the same view.

The UK Government may have mended its ways, however, as the W3
validator only finds one error and four warnings for this page:
https://www.gov.uk/

The French Government has not: the validator finds many errors at
https://www.gouvernement.fr/
--
athel
Lewis
2018-05-12 21:09:36 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by David Kleinecke
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web
page to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would
want the layout under my control.
The problems with that are that people use a variety of browsers and
devices, and if your shoe shop website doesn't work on a 21" high res
screen /and/ a 52" smart TV /and/ a smartphone you'll lose customers.
In the UK you'd probably also fall foul of disability equality
legislation if your site also doesn't work with a screen reader and
speech or tactile output.
At least in the past, the UK Government didn't consider that such
legislation applied to their own web sites. The French Government takes
the same view.
The UK Government may have mended its ways, however, as the W3
https://www.gov.uk/
The French Government has not: the validator finds many errors at
https://www.gouvernement.fr/
Just because there are errors does not mean the site is not accessible
or that it won't work with a screen reader. And just because a site does
*not* have errors doesn't mean it is accessible and will work properly
with screen readers.
--
'That's blasphemy,' said the vampire. He gasped as Vimes shot him a
glance like sunlight. 'That's what people say when the voiceless speak.'
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-13 06:38:42 UTC
Reply
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Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by David Kleinecke
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web
page to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would
want the layout under my control.
The problems with that are that people use a variety of browsers and
devices, and if your shoe shop website doesn't work on a 21" high res
screen /and/ a 52" smart TV /and/ a smartphone you'll lose customers.
In the UK you'd probably also fall foul of disability equality
legislation if your site also doesn't work with a screen reader and
speech or tactile output.
At least in the past, the UK Government didn't consider that such
legislation applied to their own web sites. The French Government takes
the same view.
The UK Government may have mended its ways, however, as the W3
https://www.gov.uk/
The French Government has not: the validator finds many errors at
https://www.gouvernement.fr/
Just because there are errors does not mean the site is not accessible
or that it won't work with a screen reader. And just because a site does
*not* have errors doesn't mean it is accessible and will work properly
with screen readers.
You're right on both counts (as I would never have doubted), but making
a site error-free is a useful step towards making it accessible.
--
athel
Lewis
2018-05-13 22:35:18 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by David Kleinecke
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web
page to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would
want the layout under my control.
The problems with that are that people use a variety of browsers and
devices, and if your shoe shop website doesn't work on a 21" high res
screen /and/ a 52" smart TV /and/ a smartphone you'll lose customers.
In the UK you'd probably also fall foul of disability equality
legislation if your site also doesn't work with a screen reader and
speech or tactile output.
At least in the past, the UK Government didn't consider that such
legislation applied to their own web sites. The French Government takes
the same view.
The UK Government may have mended its ways, however, as the W3
https://www.gov.uk/
The French Government has not: the validator finds many errors at
https://www.gouvernement.fr/
Just because there are errors does not mean the site is not accessible
or that it won't work with a screen reader. And just because a site does
*not* have errors doesn't mean it is accessible and will work properly
with screen readers.
You're right on both counts (as I would never have doubted), but making
a site error-free is a useful step towards making it accessible.
Maybe. It depends on the error. Some errors are very minor, some errors
are technical and no bowser cares and they take massive effort to work
around.

A validator is not a good tool for anyone but the author of the webpage
or someone who is having issues with the webpage.
--
Oh never resist an impulse, Sabrina. Especially if it's terrible.
Quinn C
2018-05-10 22:23:39 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 10 May 2018 03:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
...
Post by Lewis
Nope. You are still thinking of HTML as a layout/design language, and it
moved away from that about 20 years ago.
HTML is to describe the CONTENT and CSS is to describe the APPEARANCE.
One of the large advantages of properly using HTML and CSS is that both
machines and disabled people who rely on machines can access and process
the information efficiently.
...
Thanks for the rundown.
I last constructed (crude) web pages 20 years ago,
using HTML, all by hand.
I see that if I should read about CSS if I ever want to
do that sort of thing again. Whatever CSS stands for.
Cascading Style Sheets.
The situation is as Lewis explained. Whether that is a good
idea remains an open question.
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web
page to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would
want the layout under my control. Were I to write an opinion
piece and post it to AUE I have no objection to readers CSS-ing
the devil out of it.
Most usenet readers are quite distant from CSS.
It's relatively crude, but the ideas are there.

I decide, thanks to my newsreader, on the relative position of the list
of groups, list of posts for the selected group, and posting contents.

In the list of posts, the reader adds various colors and bold style to
mark e.g. unread posts, and it suppresses ignored ones. A custom
setting I made myself colors your posts green, because you use Google
Groups and a Gmail address.

Above the posting contents, the reader shows several headers, again,
configurable - most headers are suppressed. In my setting, the first
line shows Subject in bold, followed by From field and Date in
non-bold. I added a field showing the Newsreader, which combines the
contents of three headers, and a field to show the encoding. The
contents of X-Face is shown as an image in that area as well.

Within the posting, it uses the font and size of my choice. The reader
adds colors to different quoting levels, and wraps lines. It makes
URLs, Email addresses and Message-IDs clickable. At the press of one
key, it can unwrap lines, change to a monospace font, or suppress all
quotes.
--
Learning the rules that govern intelligible speech is an
inculcation into normalized language, where the price of not
conforming is the loss of intelligibility itself.
-- Judith Butler
Lewis
2018-05-11 03:16:56 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 10 May 2018 03:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
...
Post by Lewis
Nope. You are still thinking of HTML as a layout/design language, and it
moved away from that about 20 years ago.
HTML is to describe the CONTENT and CSS is to describe the APPEARANCE.
One of the large advantages of properly using HTML and CSS is that both
machines and disabled people who rely on machines can access and process
the information efficiently.
...
Thanks for the rundown.
I last constructed (crude) web pages 20 years ago,
using HTML, all by hand.
I see that if I should read about CSS if I ever want to
do that sort of thing again. Whatever CSS stands for.
Cascading Style Sheets.
The situation is as Lewis explained. Whether that is a good
idea remains an open question.
I am of two minds about the matter. Were I to design a web
page to, say, sell shoes, I think I would deplore CSS. I would
want the layout under my control.
You have far MORE control over the layout with CSS. Yes, users can
override it but that is always true, and very few do.
--
I is for IDA who drowned in a lake
J is for JAMES who took lye by mistake
Joy Beeson
2018-03-03 05:48:21 UTC
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On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 08:11:26 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
I like your wizard suit, by the way, although if you were wearing
matching slippers they seemed to be invisible. But that's wizards, I guess.
I was quite annoyed that the slippers didn't show in the picture. I
still have the gown and cap, but the slippers have worn out. (I have
a new pair on the back burner.)

I got up and checked: the cap is still in the pocket of the gown.

It's been a few years since I had a place to go on October
thirty-first.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Peter Moylan
2018-03-01 01:51:41 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 10:51:15 +0000, Katy Jennison
I'm familiar with most of the technical terms, and with the
processes they refer to, but I had to look up "hong-konging".
You realize, of course, that now I have to search the entire site
for "hong-kong" and put in links to the place where I have defined,
or will define, it.
Fortunately, the majority of the files have sequential names, and
can be searched as if they were one long file.
When I need to search a group of files for something, I just click on
the search widget and specify something like D:\website\*.html as the
file specification and "hong-kong" as the text to search for. The
wildcard ensures that subdirectories will be included.

That sort of thing has become more difficult in recent versions of
Windows, I know, especially if you want to specify "search my computer,
not the Internet", but I think it's still possible.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Ken Blake
2018-03-01 18:06:15 UTC
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On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:51:41 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
When I need to search a group of files for something, I just click on
the search widget and specify something like D:\website\*.html as the
file specification and "hong-kong" as the text to search for. The
wildcard ensures that subdirectories will be included.
That sort of thing has become more difficult in recent versions of
Windows, I know, especially if you want to specify "search my computer,
not the Internet", but I think it's still possible.
Two recommended programs, both free:

Everything (https://www.voidtools.com/) for searching for file names.

Agent Ransack (https://www.mythicsoft.com/agentransack/) for searching
for text within a group of files.
Mack A. Damia
2018-03-01 18:49:52 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:51:41 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
When I need to search a group of files for something, I just click on
the search widget and specify something like D:\website\*.html as the
file specification and "hong-kong" as the text to search for. The
wildcard ensures that subdirectories will be included.
That sort of thing has become more difficult in recent versions of
Windows, I know, especially if you want to specify "search my computer,
not the Internet", but I think it's still possible.
Everything (https://www.voidtools.com/) for searching for file names.
Agent Ransack (https://www.mythicsoft.com/agentransack/) for searching
for text within a group of files.
Maybe I am not understanding the problem, but don't you have a search
window in your Start menu? I can search my computer for any file or
text by using the feature.
Lewis
2018-02-25 02:51:04 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 12:04:02 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Hey Joy, I had a quick and simple suggestion for your website that
involves adding just a few of lines and I think would make your pages
easier for people to read, especially on the current crop of screens
In the <head>
<style> div {width: 40em; margin: 0 auto; } </style>
Then, right after <body> add a <div> and right before </body> add a
</div>
Play with the value until the width "looks good"
One nice thing about this is that if someone increases the text size
for readability, it keeps the over-all line length the same.
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/y07sg8bpatvtrpi/Screenshot%202017-10-01%2005.58.52.png?dl=0>
While cleaning up a page recently, I thought I should check in with a
follow-up.
I started introducing the new tag by revising the entrance to the
http://wlweather.net/PAGESEW/ROUGH.HTM
That looks a lot better to me than it used to.

Sounds like you had some fun.

I spent a little bit of time yesterday setting up a page that shows
columns on the side when the window is wide (over 1280 pixels) but hides
those columns when the window is narrow. Not complicated, but
entertaining. To me.

I may even go to the lengths to have a 'pop-up' menu appear on a narrow
screen, if I'm motivated.

Right now my only rules for html are "no javascript" and "no, really,
that includes jquery." Not for any real reason other than I like the
idea of doing clever things without resorting to actual programming.

Which is silly, because it is ALL programming.
--
He felt that the darkness was full of unimaginable horrors - and the
trouble with unimaginable horrors was that they were only too easy to
imagine...
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