Discussion:
Bayeux tapestry in translation
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occam
2018-07-06 17:26:15 UTC
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There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897

The sentence that intrigued me:

"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."

How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?

"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."

Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-06 17:30:03 UTC
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Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
It's packed with words. Have you never actually seen it? They're
in Latin. They shall be translated.
Harrison Hill
2018-07-06 18:07:35 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
It's packed with words. Have you never actually seen it? They're
in Latin. They shall be translated.
Lanarcam
2018-07-06 17:53:26 UTC
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Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-07-06 18:40:32 UTC
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Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
and explanatory notes:
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Lanarcam
2018-07-06 18:50:52 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Nice Website. I saw the tapestry once in Bayeux but, at the time,
I could not read Latin.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Adam Funk
2018-07-12 10:57:28 UTC
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Post by Lanarcam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
And cartoons, comic books (e.g., manga), & such are often translated.
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Nice Website. I saw the tapestry once in Bayeux but, at the time,
I could not read Latin.
Was there not an explanation or translation in French? (I saw it in
1989 & I can't remember.)
--
Science is what we understand well enough to explain to a computer.
Art is everything else we do. --- Donald Knuth
Lanarcam
2018-07-12 12:10:02 UTC
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Post by Adam Funk
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
And cartoons, comic books (e.g., manga), & such are often translated.
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Nice Website. I saw the tapestry once in Bayeux but, at the time,
I could not read Latin.
Was there not an explanation or translation in French? (I saw it in
1989 & I can't remember.)
I think I remember there was one.
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-12 12:26:08 UTC
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Post by Adam Funk
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
And cartoons, comic books (e.g., manga), & such are often translated.
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Nice Website. I saw the tapestry once in Bayeux but, at the time,
I could not read Latin.
Was there not an explanation or translation in French? (I saw it in
1989 & I can't remember.)
Can't remember either,
but I think there was explanatory text in several languages,

Jan

PS This is what the exhibit looked like, before being touristified.
<https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRe4rf3QwNwO7-kIgK
_FOpwvP5_IaJrOz8080ZMqiRkJQTnjWoZCg>
There was text on the horizontal plane in front of it.
Katy Jennison
2018-07-06 20:17:16 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.

https://medievalmosaic.com/

I've seen it. Mind-boggling. My principal reaction was 'Why?'
--
Katy Jennison
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-06 20:43:57 UTC
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Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
"With extra scenes."

Is there much competition for the title "World's longest steel mosaic"?
Post by Katy Jennison
I've seen it. Mind-boggling. My principal reaction was 'Why?'
I don't suppose St Alban's is anywhere near Oxford?
Tony Cooper
2018-07-06 22:09:47 UTC
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On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:43:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't suppose St Alban's is anywhere near Oxford?
St Albans, if you Google. No apostrophe.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-07-06 22:12:24 UTC
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On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:43:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
"With extra scenes."
Is there much competition for the title "World's longest steel mosaic"?
Post by Katy Jennison
I've seen it. Mind-boggling. My principal reaction was 'Why?'
I don't suppose St Alban's is anywhere near Oxford?
50-ish miles.

Google Maps gives three routes by car:
http://tinyurl.com/ybe2aa6u
for
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/St+Albans/Oxford/@51.6873083,-1.0785884,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x487638a0e793c909:0x71ec848046a64059!2m2!1d-0.339436!2d51.752725!1m5!1m1!1s0x48713380adc41faf:0xc820dba8cb547402!2m2!1d-1.2577263!2d51.7520209!3e0?hl=en

1 h 8 min, 55.7 miles
1 h 18 min, 47.6 miles
1 h 25 min, 56.7 miles

Public transport is a no-no. You would need to go to London and out
again walking between various bus and rail stations.

I haven't been in that area for a long time. You might get better
information from someone who does know the area.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-07-07 09:26:07 UTC
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On Fri, 06 Jul 2018 22:12:24 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:43:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
[]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't suppose St Alban's is anywhere near Oxford?
50-ish miles.
http://tinyurl.com/ybe2aa6u
for
84,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x487638a0e793c909:0x71ec84804
6a64059!2m2!1d-0.339436!2d51.752725!1m5!1m1!1s0x48713380adc41faf:0xc820
dba8cb547402!2m2!1d-1.2577263!2d51.7520209!3e0?hl=en
1 h 8 min, 55.7 miles
1 h 18 min, 47.6 miles
1 h 25 min, 56.7 miles
Public transport is a no-no. You would need to go to London and out
again walking between various bus and rail stations.
I haven't been in that area for a long time. You might get better
information from someone who does know the area.
It's exceedingly good of you to do PTD's homwework for him.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2018-07-07 12:01:22 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 06 Jul 2018 22:12:24 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:43:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't suppose St Alban's is anywhere near Oxford?
50-ish miles.
Google Maps gives three routes by car: http://tinyurl.com/ybe2aa6u
for
84,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x487638a0e793c909:0x71ec84804
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Tony Cooper
6a64059!2m2!1d-0.339436!2d51.752725!1m5!1m1!1s0x48713380adc41faf:0xc820
dba8cb547402!2m2!1d-1.2577263!2d51.7520209!3e0?hl=en
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Tony Cooper
1 h 8 min, 55.7 miles 1 h 18 min, 47.6 miles 1 h 25 min, 56.7
miles
Public transport is a no-no. You would need to go to London and out
again walking between various bus and rail stations.
I haven't been in that area for a long time. You might get better
information from someone who does know the area.
It's exceedingly good of you to do PTD's homwework for him.
When travelling I try to do my research in advance, but in practice
local advice is enormously valuable in giving you information you
wouldn't otherwise discover. Things like "Yes, I know that those two
trains are supposed to connect, but in practice the first train is
always late."

Not so long ago I had to prepare instructions on how to get to a certain
location in Sydney. The instructions were something like "From X
station, walk west two blocks, and then turn right after going through
the underpass." Google Maps don't always make it clear that a particular
intersection is an overpass/underpass combination. Indeed, my GPS
navigator has occasionally made the same error.

In a place I visited for a weekend away, the instructions included "look
for the water tower at the top of the hill". The on-line maps don't even
mention a hill, and they certainly don't mention water towers.

Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who has not
_also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware of that on a
recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from a bus station; but
in which direction, and which bus station; and which buses go to that
bus station? I knew that because I had studied some maps and bus routes.
My wife was completely lost, even though she knows Brisbane better than
I do.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2018-07-07 12:23:19 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who has
not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware of that
on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from a bus
station; but in which direction, and which bus station; and which
buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had studied some
maps and bus routes. My wife was completely lost, even though she
knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.

My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station, walk
west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by looking at
the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some countries you don't
have a clue where the sun is.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-07-07 15:07:20 UTC
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On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:23:19 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who has
not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware of that
on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from a bus
station; but in which direction, and which bus station; and which
buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had studied some
maps and bus routes. My wife was completely lost, even though she
knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station, walk
west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by looking at
the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some countries you don't
have a clue where the sun is.
My only knowledge of Brisbane is that it has a toll bridge that you can
so easily go over, even if you don't mean to. And then have to ring up
with a credit card and a whole heap of fun.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Adam Funk
2018-07-12 10:59:36 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
My only knowledge of Brisbane is that it has a toll bridge that you can
so easily go over, even if you don't mean to. And then have to ring up
with a credit card and a whole heap of fun.
If you goof up the driving directions in New Orleans, you can end up
on the Lake Pontchartrain bridge. The toll was only $1, but it's
20-some miles long. (I think there were some U-turn points, but we
decided we might as well enjoy the view & get our dollar's worth.)
--
Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water,
or rain water, and only pure grain alcohol? --- General Ripper
John Varela
2018-07-12 20:59:48 UTC
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Post by Adam Funk
If you goof up the driving directions in New Orleans, you can end up
on the Lake Pontchartrain bridge.
Causeway.
Post by Adam Funk
The toll was only $1,
Now $5 according to WikiP.
Post by Adam Funk
but it's 20-some miles long. (I think there were some U-turn points, > but we decided we might as well enjoy the view & get our dollar's > worth.)
--
John Varela
Mark Brader
2018-07-12 23:35:57 UTC
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Post by John Varela
Post by Adam Funk
If you goof up the driving directions in New Orleans, you can end up
on the Lake Pontchartrain bridge.
Causeway.
You say that as if it's a correction. AHD says:

# cause·way ... n.
# 1. A roadway on a raised bed of earth, rubble, or other fill,
# usually crossing open water or a wetland.
# 2. A long bridge consisting of many short spans.
# 3. Archaic A paved highway.

Sense 2 applies here, and Adam didn't capitalize Bridge to assert that
it was part of the name.
--
Mark Brader | "It is, in fact, a very good rule to be especially suspicious
Toronto | of work that says what you want to hear..."
***@vex.net | --Paul Krugman

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-13 03:33:10 UTC
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Post by John Varela
Post by Adam Funk
If you goof up the driving directions in New Orleans, you can end up
on the Lake Pontchartrain bridge.
Causeway.
Post by Adam Funk
The toll was only $1,
Now $5 according to WikiP.
Post by Adam Funk
but it's 20-some miles long. (I think there were some U-turn points, > but we decided we might as well enjoy the view & get our dollar's > worth.)
$15 to cross the Hudson on any of the Port Authority's facilities between
NJ and NYC: a mile for the Hudson, a few hundred feet for the Staten
Island crossings.
Peter Moylan
2018-07-12 12:51:34 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:23:19 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who
has not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware
of that on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from
a bus station; but in which direction, and which bus station;
and which buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I
had studied some maps and bus routes. My wife was completely
lost, even though she knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station,
walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by
looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some
countries you don't have a clue where the sun is.
My only knowledge of Brisbane is that it has a toll bridge that you
can so easily go over, even if you don't mean to. And then have to
ring up with a credit card and a whole heap of fun.
Melbourne is worse. There are places right near the city centre where
you need local knowledge to know which of the five lanes will get you to
the entrance or exit you want. Only about four years ago, while trying
to get from the south end to the north end of the CBD, a matter of five
or six city blocks, I paid the toll four times for the privilege of
driving around in circles. In part that was the fault of my GPS
navigator, who said "Take the exit" when she really meant the exit 50
metres further on.

Back before my car had a transponder (e-tag) to pay the toll, I ran into
a related problem in Victoria. When I phoned to pay the toll, there
weren't any humans at the end of the line, and the voice recognition
system couldn't understand my NSW accent. That, despite the fact that I
grew up in Victoria and was, I thought, perfectly fluent in Victorian.

I don't know whether Brisbane also uses that flaky voice recognition.

To be fair, I have to add that my first wife (who grew up in Victoria)
was totally flummoxed by the multiple roads crossing the Sydney Harbour
Bridge. She crossed the bridge three times, while trying to leave it,
before finally facing the "WRONG WAY: GO BACK" sign.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Adam Funk
2018-07-12 14:07:30 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Melbourne is worse. There are places right near the city centre where
you need local knowledge to know which of the five lanes will get you to
the entrance or exit you want. Only about four years ago, while trying
to get from the south end to the north end of the CBD, a matter of five
or six city blocks, I paid the toll four times for the privilege of
driving around in circles. In part that was the fault of my GPS
navigator, who said "Take the exit" when she really meant the exit 50
metres further on.
Back before my car had a transponder (e-tag) to pay the toll, I ran into
a related problem in Victoria. When I phoned to pay the toll, there
weren't any humans at the end of the line, and the voice recognition
system couldn't understand my NSW accent. That, despite the fact that I
grew up in Victoria and was, I thought, perfectly fluent in Victorian.
I'm surprised. I was under the impression that Australia had
relatively little accent variation, especially for its physical
extent. (I haven't been there, but an Australian gave me this
impression; but I think he also said it's rude to notice accents too
much.)
--
The internet is quite simply a glorious place. Where else can you find
bootlegged music and films, questionable women, deep seated xenophobia
and amusing cats all together in the same place? --- Tom Belshaw
Peter Moylan
2018-07-12 15:32:48 UTC
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Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Back before my car had a transponder (e-tag) to pay the toll, I ran into
a related problem in Victoria. When I phoned to pay the toll, there
weren't any humans at the end of the line, and the voice recognition
system couldn't understand my NSW accent. That, despite the fact that I
grew up in Victoria and was, I thought, perfectly fluent in Victorian.
I'm surprised. I was under the impression that Australia had
relatively little accent variation, especially for its physical
extent. (I haven't been there, but an Australian gave me this
impression; but I think he also said it's rude to notice accents too
much.)
You are quite right. My comment was more to do with the poor quality of
the voice recognition system. It couldn't hear the difference between
"yes" and "no".

Linguists distinguish three kinds -- broad, general, and cultivated --
of Australian accents. From this I deduce that those linguists have
spent too much time in Melbourne, which is the main place where the
"posh"=cultivated="upper-class wanker" accent can be observed.
Elsewhere, we see a two-way divide between "educated" and "rural". The
rural accents are definitely different from the big-city accents, but
apart from that it's hard to see a finer distinction.

There is some regional variation. Some of us can pick the difference
between an Adelaide accent and a Sydney accent by the realisation of "a"
vowels. But, let's face it, the regional differences are minor. I have a
sister on the other side of the continent, and her pronunciation is
little different from what I grew up with; and I doubt that her friends
over in WA can pick her as a foreigner.

When I first arrived in Newcastle I had to learn a few new words. It
appears, though, that Newcastle is one of those rare little enclaves
that have a regional dialect. Such enclaves are rare in this country.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-12 16:07:15 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Back before my car had a transponder (e-tag) to pay the toll, I ran into
a related problem in Victoria. When I phoned to pay the toll, there
weren't any humans at the end of the line, and the voice recognition
system couldn't understand my NSW accent. That, despite the fact that I
grew up in Victoria and was, I thought, perfectly fluent in Victorian.
I'm surprised. I was under the impression that Australia had
relatively little accent variation, especially for its physical
extent. (I haven't been there, but an Australian gave me this
impression; but I think he also said it's rude to notice accents too
much.)
You are quite right. My comment was more to do with the poor quality of
the voice recognition system. It couldn't hear the difference between
"yes" and "no".
Linguists distinguish three kinds -- broad, general, and cultivated --
of Australian accents. From this I deduce that those linguists have
spent too much time in Melbourne, which is the main place where the
"posh"=cultivated="upper-class wanker" accent can be observed.
Elsewhere, we see a two-way divide between "educated" and "rural". The
rural accents are definitely different from the big-city accents, but
apart from that it's hard to see a finer distinction.
There is some regional variation. Some of us can pick the difference
between an Adelaide accent and a Sydney accent by the realisation of "a"
vowels. But, let's face it, the regional differences are minor. I have a
sister on the other side of the continent, and her pronunciation is
little different from what I grew up with; and I doubt that her friends
over in WA can pick her as a foreigner.
When I first arrived in Newcastle I had to learn a few new words. It
appears, though, that Newcastle is one of those rare little enclaves
that have a regional dialect. Such enclaves are rare in this country.
Uniformity of Australian accent might be attributed to the way the continent
was first settled by settlers: not by communities from a single area speaking
a fairly uniform dialect, settling in different places, as in the US, but by
transports on which people from all over England or Britain were mingled for
many months and didn't sort themselves out into their original communities
after they were dumped on the fatal shore. Not much regional variation is
likely to set in over the two centuries or so since the various cities got
founded, comprising separate speech communities.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-12 16:22:40 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Linguists distinguish three kinds -- broad, general, and cultivated --
of Australian accents. From this I deduce that those linguists have
spent too much time in Melbourne, which is the main place where the
"posh"=cultivated="upper-class wanker" accent can be observed.
That would be the way Miss Fisher would speak (if I heard her in
English), I suppose.
Post by Peter Moylan
Elsewhere, we see a two-way divide between "educated" and "rural". The
rural accents are definitely different from the big-city accents, but
apart from that it's hard to see a finer distinction.
There is some regional variation. Some of us can pick the difference
between an Adelaide accent and a Sydney accent by the realisation of
"a" vowels. But, let's face it, the regional differences are minor. I
have a sister on the other side of the continent, and her pronunciation
is little different from what I grew up with; and I doubt that her
friends over in WA can pick her as a foreigner.
When I first arrived in Newcastle I had to learn a few new words. It
appears, though, that Newcastle is one of those rare little enclaves
that have a regional dialect. Such enclaves are rare in this country.
--
athel
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-12 16:35:50 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Linguists distinguish three kinds -- broad, general, and cultivated --
of Australian accents. From this I deduce that those linguists have
spent too much time in Melbourne, which is the main place where the
"posh"=cultivated="upper-class wanker" accent can be observed.
That would be the way Miss Fisher would speak (if I heard her in
English), I suppose.
I think you'll find Miss Fisher's accent is a considerably more complex
matter than that!
Tony Cooper
2018-07-12 19:14:36 UTC
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:35:50 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Linguists distinguish three kinds -- broad, general, and cultivated --
of Australian accents. From this I deduce that those linguists have
spent too much time in Melbourne, which is the main place where the
"posh"=cultivated="upper-class wanker" accent can be observed.
That would be the way Miss Fisher would speak (if I heard her in
English), I suppose.
I think you'll find Miss Fisher's accent is a considerably more complex
matter than that!
Here's a video where she speaks:



The trailer is followed by comments by the actress. I would assume
the comments are in Essie Davis's normal voice, and the trailer is her
speaking as Miss Fisher.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-13 07:21:12 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:35:50 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Linguists distinguish three kinds -- broad, general, and cultivated --
of Australian accents. From this I deduce that those linguists have
spent too much time in Melbourne, which is the main place where the
"posh"=cultivated="upper-class wanker" accent can be observed.
That would be the way Miss Fisher would speak (if I heard her in
English), I suppose.
I think you'll find Miss Fisher's accent is a considerably more complex
matter than that!
http://youtu.be/_aEqGHISwqk
The trailer is followed by comments by the actress. I would assume
the comments are in Essie Davis's normal voice, and the trailer is her
speaking as Miss Fisher.
Thanks for that. As Essie Davis she sounds Australian to my ears, as
Miss Fisher she sounds English.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-13 07:17:34 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Linguists distinguish three kinds -- broad, general, and cultivated --
of Australian accents. From this I deduce that those linguists have
spent too much time in Melbourne, which is the main place where the
"posh"=cultivated="upper-class wanker" accent can be observed.
That would be the way Miss Fisher would speak (if I heard her in
English), I suppose.
I think you'll find Miss Fisher's accent is a considerably more complex
matter than that!
Not when I hear her. Her French is like that of all the other characters.
--
athel
the Omrud
2018-07-07 17:55:52 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who has
not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware of that
on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from a bus
station; but in which direction, and which bus station; and which
buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had studied some
maps and bus routes. My wife was completely lost, even though she
knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station, walk
west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by looking at
the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some countries you don't
have a clue where the sun is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
--
David
Peter Moylan
2018-07-08 00:17:52 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who
has not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware
of that on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from
a bus station; but in which direction, and which bus station; and
which buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had
studied some maps and bus routes. My wife was completely lost,
even though she knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station,
walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by
looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some
countries you don't have a clue where the sun is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense of
direction falls completely to pieces.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-08 09:55:47 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who
has not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware
of that on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from
a bus station; but in which direction, and which bus station; and
which buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had
studied some maps and bus routes. My wife was completely lost,
even though she knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station,
walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by
looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some
countries you don't have a clue where the sun is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense of
direction falls completely to pieces.
When I'm in Chile I often get confused between north and south, despite
the presence of high mountains to the east that can be seen from almost
everywhere in the central valley.

The only time I was in New South Wales (Sydney airport) it was a
horrible day and no sun was to be seen. However, I suppose that was
unusual.
--
athel
John Varela
2018-07-08 23:07:40 UTC
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On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:17:52 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who
has not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware
of that on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from
a bus station; but in which direction, and which bus station; and
which buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had
studied some maps and bus routes. My wife was completely lost,
even though she knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station,
walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by
looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some
countries you don't have a clue where the sun is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense of
direction falls completely to pieces.
Surely only at midday. The sun still rises in the east and sets in
the west. Of course you have to remember which way is now north and
which is now south, but you can't expect to have everything.
--
John Varela
Dingbat
2018-07-09 00:58:09 UTC
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Post by John Varela
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:17:52 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who
has not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware
of that on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from
a bus station; but in which direction, and which bus station; and
which buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had
studied some maps and bus routes. My wife was completely lost,
even though she knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station,
walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by
looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some
countries you don't have a clue where the sun is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense of
direction falls completely to pieces.
Surely only at midday. The sun still rises in the east and sets in
the west. Of course you have to remember which way is now north and
which is now south, but you can't expect to have everything.
If you're to the north of the tropic of Cancer, the Sun rises in the south-east and sets in the south-west.
John Varela
2018-07-09 23:03:00 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
Post by John Varela
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:17:52 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who
has not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware
of that on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from
a bus station; but in which direction, and which bus station; and
which buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had
studied some maps and bus routes. My wife was completely lost,
even though she knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station,
walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by
looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some
countries you don't have a clue where the sun is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense of
direction falls completely to pieces.
Surely only at midday. The sun still rises in the east and sets in
the west. Of course you have to remember which way is now north and
which is now south, but you can't expect to have everything.
If you're to the north of the tropic of Cancer, the Sun rises in the south-east and sets in the south-west.
Only in winter. At the equinoxes it rises due east and sets due
west. In the summer it rises north of east and sets north of west.
North of the Arctic Circle it doesn't set at all.

What's your point?
--
John Varela
CDB
2018-07-10 12:50:53 UTC
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Post by John Varela
Post by Dingbat
Post by John Varela
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to
someone who has not _also_ done their own checking. I
became very much aware of that on a recent trip to
Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from a bus station; but
in which direction, and which bus station; and which
buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had
studied some maps and bus routes. My wife was completely
lost, even though she knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus
station, walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can
find west by looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of
course, in some countries you don't have a clue where the
sun is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense
of direction falls completely to pieces.
Surely only at midday. The sun still rises in the east and sets
in the west. Of course you have to remember which way is now
north and which is now south, but you can't expect to have
everything.
If you're to the north of the tropic of Cancer, the Sun rises in
the south-east and sets in the south-west.
Only in winter. At the equinoxes it rises due east and sets due
west. In the summer it rises north of east and sets north of west.
North of the Arctic Circle it doesn't set at all.
In the Arctic summer you can wait till midnight, when the sun dips below
the horizon in the north, or at least gets close to it. Spring and fall
should be like the same seasons farther south (guessing; I've only been
there in the summertime). Winter, fuhgeddaboudit. I think locals know
where the prevailing winds come from.
Post by John Varela
What's your point?
If you want to know the time, ask a policeman.
Mark Brader
2018-07-11 18:18:22 UTC
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Post by John Varela
Post by Dingbat
If you're to the north of the tropic of Cancer, the Sun rises in the
south-east and sets in the south-west.
Only in winter. At the equinoxes it rises due east and sets due
west. In the summer it rises north of east and sets north of west.
North of the Arctic Circle it doesn't set at all.
North of the Arctic Circle it *may* not set at all, depending on the date
and your latitude.
--
Mark Brader|"But how can we do something about something that isn't happening?"
Toronto |"It's much easier to solve an imaginary problem than a real one."
***@vex.net| --Lynn & Jay: "Yes, Prime Minister" (2013)
John Varela
2018-07-11 19:49:44 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by John Varela
Post by Dingbat
If you're to the north of the tropic of Cancer, the Sun rises in the
south-east and sets in the south-west.
Only in winter. At the equinoxes it rises due east and sets due
west. In the summer it rises north of east and sets north of west.
North of the Arctic Circle it doesn't set at all.
North of the Arctic Circle it *may* not set at all, depending on the date
and your latitude.
The date is summer, as stated, and the location is the Arctic, as
stated.
--
John Varela
Mark Brader
2018-07-11 19:54:54 UTC
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Post by John Varela
Post by Mark Brader
Post by John Varela
Post by Dingbat
If you're to the north of the tropic of Cancer, the Sun rises in the
south-east and sets in the south-west.
Only in winter. At the equinoxes it rises due east and sets due
west. In the summer it rises north of east and sets north of west.
North of the Arctic Circle it doesn't set at all.
North of the Arctic Circle it *may* not set at all, depending on the date
and your latitude.
The date is summer, as stated, and the location is the Arctic, as
stated.
To start with, "summer" is not usually a single date.
--
Mark Brader "The design of the lowercase e in text faces
Toronto produces strong feelings (or should do so)."
***@vex.net -- Walter Tracy
RHDraney
2018-07-12 07:09:41 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by John Varela
The date is summer, as stated, and the location is the Arctic, as
stated.
To start with, "summer" is not usually a single date.
Unless you're in Seattle....r
Anders D. Nygaard
2018-07-12 22:10:20 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
To start with, "summer" is not usually a single date.
"I love the British summer. It's the best day of the year" - Anon

/Anders, Denmark.
Peter Young
2018-07-13 06:44:14 UTC
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Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Mark Brader
To start with, "summer" is not usually a single date.
"I love the British summer. It's the best day of the year" - Anon
"The British summer is three fine days and a thunderstorm" Another Anon.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Au)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Adam Funk
2018-07-13 09:26:20 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Mark Brader
To start with, "summer" is not usually a single date.
"I love the British summer. It's the best day of the year" - Anon
"The British summer is three fine days and a thunderstorm" Another Anon.
As a lecturer in Manchester told me, "Foreign students often say to
me, 'I seem to have arrived during your rainy season.' I tell them it
will last another 11 months."
--
There is no Internet of Things. There are only many unpatched,
vulnerable, small computers on the Internet.
@netik
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-13 07:15:13 UTC
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Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Mark Brader
To start with, "summer" is not usually a single date.
"I love the British summer. It's the best day of the year" - Anon
Is it so different in Denmark?
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2018-07-09 01:44:07 UTC
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Post by John Varela
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:17:52 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus
station, walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can
find west by looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of
course, in some countries you don't have a clue where the sun
is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense of
direction falls completely to pieces.
Surely only at midday. The sun still rises in the east and sets in
the west. Of course you have to remember which way is now north and
which is now south, but you can't expect to have everything.
One's sense of direction usually sits at the semi-conscious level. I, at
least, don't work it out by logic. That is, I don't say to myself "This
morning the sun rose over in that direction, so that must be
north-east". Instead, I pick north by the compass that's inside my head.

Except that that compass goes wrong when I'm in the northern hemisphere,
and the sun doesn't rise in the north-east in winter.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
John Ritson
2018-07-09 09:09:29 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by John Varela
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:17:52 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus
station, walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can
find west by looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of
course, in some countries you don't have a clue where the sun
is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense of
direction falls completely to pieces.
Surely only at midday. The sun still rises in the east and sets in
the west. Of course you have to remember which way is now north and
which is now south, but you can't expect to have everything.
One's sense of direction usually sits at the semi-conscious level. I, at
least, don't work it out by logic. That is, I don't say to myself "This
morning the sun rose over in that direction, so that must be
north-east". Instead, I pick north by the compass that's inside my head.
Except that that compass goes wrong when I'm in the northern hemisphere,
and the sun doesn't rise in the north-east in winter.
This where technology may come to your rescue, even if you are not
carrying any. The TV satellite dishes point toward the equator.

Once upon a time you were supposed to check which side of the trees had
least moss.
--
John Ritson

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
RH Draney
2018-07-09 12:24:34 UTC
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Post by John Ritson
This where technology may come to your rescue, even if you are not
carrying any. The TV satellite dishes point toward the equator.
Once upon a time you were supposed to check which side of the trees had
least moss.
Doesn't work in these parts...even if you can *find* a tree, there's
never moss on any side of it....r
Peter Moylan
2018-07-09 12:43:13 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by John Ritson
This where technology may come to your rescue, even if you are not
carrying any. The TV satellite dishes point toward the equator.
Once upon a time you were supposed to check which side of the trees
had least moss.
Doesn't work in these parts...even if you can *find* a tree, there's
never moss on any side of it....r
Plenty of trees in this area, but not much moss.

I'm now trying to remember what we were told to look for to check our
directions. Probably we had to wait for night and then find south from
the Southern Cross.

Once I was taught a method using the sun and a watch, but it gives bad
answers if your watch is a digital watch.

No doubt there's some really simple answer, like going to the nearest
person and saying "I'll give you this pendulum if you'll tell me which
direction is north". But, of course, if you can find a person then
you're probably not lost.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-09 12:59:21 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Ritson
This where technology may come to your rescue, even if you are not
carrying any. The TV satellite dishes point toward the equator.
Once upon a time you were supposed to check which side of the trees
had least moss.
Doesn't work in these parts...even if you can *find* a tree, there's
never moss on any side of it....r
Plenty of trees in this area, but not much moss.
I'm now trying to remember what we were told to look for to check our
directions. Probably we had to wait for night and then find south from
the Southern Cross.
Once I was taught a method using the sun and a watch, but it gives bad
answers if your watch is a digital watch.
No doubt there's some really simple answer, like going to the nearest
person and saying "I'll give you this pendulum if you'll tell me which
direction is north". But, of course, if you can find a person then
you're probably not lost.
Ask Prof. Tournesol for help. [1]
His pendulum always swings due east,

Jan

[1] Prof. Calculus to you, in yet another poor translation.
Mark Brader
2018-07-09 19:49:28 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
I'm now trying to remember what we were told to look for to check our
directions. Probably we had to wait for night and then find south from
the Southern Cross.
Of course that's easier in the Northern Hemisphere, where you first find
the Big Dipper, then Polaris, and you've got true north within about a
degree. The Southern Cross is only approximately south.
Post by Peter Moylan
Once I was taught a method using the sun and a watch,
Really! The one I've seen described is also a Northern Hemisphere thing,
depending on the non-coincidental fact that the Sun's motion around the
sky and the hour hand's rotation are both clockwise. I guess it could
be converted for the Southern Hemisphere, though.

It's also a rather rough approximation. Even if you are on the meridian
that your time zone is based on and daylight-saving time is not in use,
the Sun is typically *not* due east at 6 am and due west at 6 pm, yet
this is what the method assumes.
Post by Peter Moylan
but it gives bad answers if your watch is a digital watch.
You have to start by converting to analog in your head, of course. It's
also helpful to convert to local solar time for your location, thus
knocking out the "Even if" clause from my previous paragraph.
Post by Peter Moylan
No doubt there's some really simple answer, like going to the nearest
person and saying "I'll give you this pendulum if you'll tell me which
direction is north". But, of course, if you can find a person then
you're probably not lost.
I tried that once in 1985 when I was on a street somewhere around
45.755 N, 4.83 E. Nice rectangular street grid, so I just had to
know my orientation, right? (I don't remember now how I got there
without knowing it already. Probably I came out of a building after
forgetting which side of the street it had been on.)

"Pardonnez-moi, madame, en quelle direction est le nord?"
"Il n'y a ni nord ni sud ici, il y a le Rhône et le Saône."
"Alors, en quelle direction est le Rhône?"

There's no north or south here, only the two rivers. So I asked for
one of the rivers. And was directed the wrong way.
--
Mark Brader | "And don't forget there were five separate computers
***@vex.net | in those days."
Toronto | -- Bob NE20G3018 (Ira Levin, "This Perfect Day")

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Tony Cooper
2018-07-09 21:47:36 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
I'm now trying to remember what we were told to look for to check our
directions. Probably we had to wait for night and then find south from
the Southern Cross.
Of course that's easier in the Northern Hemisphere, where you first find
the Big Dipper, then Polaris, and you've got true north within about a
degree. The Southern Cross is only approximately south.
Post by Peter Moylan
Once I was taught a method using the sun and a watch,
Really! The one I've seen described is also a Northern Hemisphere thing,
depending on the non-coincidental fact that the Sun's motion around the
sky and the hour hand's rotation are both clockwise. I guess it could
be converted for the Southern Hemisphere, though.
It's also a rather rough approximation. Even if you are on the meridian
that your time zone is based on and daylight-saving time is not in use,
the Sun is typically *not* due east at 6 am and due west at 6 pm, yet
this is what the method assumes.
Post by Peter Moylan
but it gives bad answers if your watch is a digital watch.
You have to start by converting to analog in your head, of course. It's
also helpful to convert to local solar time for your location, thus
knocking out the "Even if" clause from my previous paragraph.
Post by Peter Moylan
No doubt there's some really simple answer, like going to the nearest
person and saying "I'll give you this pendulum if you'll tell me which
direction is north". But, of course, if you can find a person then
you're probably not lost.
I tried that once in 1985 when I was on a street somewhere around
45.755 N, 4.83 E. Nice rectangular street grid, so I just had to
know my orientation, right? (I don't remember now how I got there
without knowing it already. Probably I came out of a building after
forgetting which side of the street it had been on.)
"Pardonnez-moi, madame, en quelle direction est le nord?"
"Il n'y a ni nord ni sud ici, il y a le Rhône et le Saône."
"Alors, en quelle direction est le Rhône?"
There's no north or south here, only the two rivers. So I asked for
one of the rivers. And was directed the wrong way.
I'm pretty good at sensing direction even at night, but often wander
the length and width of a store parking lot trying to find where I
parked.

I drive a Toyota RAV4, which is a small SUV. In Lowe's or Home Depot,
it hides between pickup trucks and vans. Some of those pickups have
those oversized tires that almost give them enough clearance to park
over my RAV4.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2018-07-09 23:21:16 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
I'm now trying to remember what we were told to look for to check
our directions. Probably we had to wait for night and then find
south from the Southern Cross.
Of course that's easier in the Northern Hemisphere, where you first
find the Big Dipper, then Polaris, and you've got true north within
about a degree. The Southern Cross is only approximately south.
The rule here is moderately complicated, but many people find it easy to
learn. From the major axis of the Cross, project a line downwards, and
follow it for four and a half times the height of the Cross. That's south.

An alternative method used by some people is to run a line perpendicular
from the line between the two pointer stars, and midway between the two,
and find the intersection of that with the above line.

The "pointer stars", Alpha Centauri and Beta Centauri, are so called
because they point to the top of the Southern Cross. (And they're easy
to identify because they are especially bright.) Looking for the pointer
stars also helps you to avoid being fooled by the "false cross".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mark Brader
2018-07-10 06:30:55 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Probably we had to wait for night and then find
south from the Southern Cross.
Of course that's easier in the Northern Hemisphere, where you first
find the Big Dipper, then Polaris, and you've got true north within
about a degree. The Southern Cross is only approximately south.
The rule here is moderately complicated, but many people find it easy to
learn.
I only said our rule was easier.
Post by Peter Moylan
From the major axis of the Cross, project a line downwards, and
follow it for four and a half times the height of the Cross. That's south.
That doesn't make sense, unless "downwards" was meant to mean something
other than "toward the nearest horizon".
Post by Peter Moylan
The "pointer stars", Alpha Centauri and Beta Centauri, are so called
because they point to the top of the Southern Cross. (And they're easy
to identify because they are especially bright.)
The Big Dipper is part of Ursa Major, consisting of 7 fairly bright
stars in a shape that's disinctive and easy to identify no matter
which way up it is. (It's known Rightpondianly as the Plough,
because they see a solid blade where we see a cross-sectional bowl).
In the Northern Hemisphere the "pointers" are the two stars of the
Big Dipper that are farthest from the handle, and they point almost
perfectly to Polaris.
--
Mark Brader | "The conversation never became heated, which would
Toronto | have been difficult in any argument where there
***@vex.net | is a built-in cooling-down period between any
| remark and its answer." --Hal Clement, STAR LIGHT

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Peter Moylan
2018-07-10 08:26:02 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Mark Brader
Probably we had to wait for night and then find south from the
Southern Cross.
Of course that's easier in the Northern Hemisphere, where you
first find the Big Dipper, then Polaris, and you've got true
north within about a degree. The Southern Cross is only
approximately south.
The rule here is moderately complicated, but many people find it
easy to learn.
I only said our rule was easier.
Post by Peter Moylan
From the major axis of the Cross, project a line downwards, and
follow it for four and a half times the height of the Cross. That's south.
That doesn't make sense, unless "downwards" was meant to mean
something other than "toward the nearest horizon".
Sorry if that was unclear. The line is supposed to pass through the head
and foot of the cross (the major axis), and you follow that line from
the head to the foot of the cross and beyond.

"Downwards" was intended to be taken relative to the cross, i.e. with
your head tilted so that the cross is upright. And, in hindsight,
"project" was the wrong word. Completely the wrong word.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mark Brader
2018-07-11 18:23:06 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
From the major axis of the Cross, project a line downwards, and
follow it for four and a half times the height of the Cross. That's south.
That doesn't make sense, unless "downwards" was meant to mean
something other than "toward the nearest horizon".
Sorry if that was unclear. The line is supposed to pass through the head
and foot of the cross (the major axis), and you follow that line from
the head to the foot of the cross and beyond.
"Downwards" was intended to be taken relative to the cross, i.e. with
your head tilted so that the cross is upright.
Ah! Now it makes sense. I don't know if it's correct, but I daresay
Peter knows it is.
Post by Peter Moylan
And, in hindsight, "project" was the wrong word. Completely the
wrong word.
It didn't feel wrong to me, but on further cogitation, "produce" is the
word I would have come across in geometry class. Produce line AB to
meet line EF at G. "Extend" also works.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | This is Programming as a True Art Form, where style
***@vex.net | is more important than correctness... --Pontus Hedman

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Richard Yates
2018-07-09 13:31:38 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by John Ritson
This where technology may come to your rescue, even if you are not
carrying any. The TV satellite dishes point toward the equator.
Once upon a time you were supposed to check which side of the trees had
least moss.
Doesn't work in these parts...even if you can *find* a tree, there's
never moss on any side of it....r
...and here it is on all sides.
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-10 10:45:19 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Ritson
This where technology may come to your rescue, even if you are not
carrying any. The TV satellite dishes point toward the equator.
Once upon a time you were supposed to check which side of the trees had
least moss.
Doesn't work in these parts...even if you can *find* a tree, there's
never moss on any side of it....r
...and here it is on all sides.
The greenish stuff, yes.
The lichens otoh...

Jan
Ken Blake
2018-07-09 16:34:11 UTC
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On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 10:09:29 +0100, John Ritson
Post by John Ritson
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by John Varela
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:17:52 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus
station, walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can
find west by looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of
course, in some countries you don't have a clue where the sun
is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense of
direction falls completely to pieces.
Surely only at midday. The sun still rises in the east and sets in
the west. Of course you have to remember which way is now north and
which is now south, but you can't expect to have everything.
One's sense of direction usually sits at the semi-conscious level. I, at
least, don't work it out by logic. That is, I don't say to myself "This
morning the sun rose over in that direction, so that must be
north-east". Instead, I pick north by the compass that's inside my head.
Except that that compass goes wrong when I'm in the northern hemisphere,
and the sun doesn't rise in the north-east in winter.
This where technology may come to your rescue, even if you are not
carrying any. The TV satellite dishes point toward the equator.
Once upon a time you were supposed to check which side of the trees had
least moss.
Here in the Sonoran Desert, find a barrel cactus. They lean toward
the south.
s***@gmail.com
2018-07-09 22:09:45 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
One's sense of direction usually sits at the semi-conscious level. I, at
least, don't work it out by logic. That is, I don't say to myself "This
morning the sun rose over in that direction, so that must be
north-east". Instead, I pick north by the compass that's inside my head.
Well, I use "is morning or afternoon" + "which way are the shadows pointing".
But most of the time I am able to maintain a rough sense of north.
Some issues ... near where I work, the north-south road
has a strong northwest tilt,
and sometimes I'm surprised by where the sunset smacks the horizon.
(The SoCal coast also a strong northwest tilt,
so pointing west may not be pointing to a beach.)

All this tends to break down inside stores.
When I had an inventory job,
all the stores faced south ... while I was inside.

/dps
Joy Beeson
2018-07-13 02:42:36 UTC
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Post by s***@gmail.com
Well, I use "is morning or afternoon" + "which way are the shadows pointing".
I got confused on my first few long-distance bicycle rides this year
-- until I remembered that Indiana is on double daylight time. When
my watch says one o'clock in the afternoon, it's really eleven in the
morning.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.





---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Mark Brader
2018-07-13 02:54:18 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
I got confused on my first few long-distance bicycle rides this year
-- until I remembered that Indiana is on double daylight time. When
my watch says one o'clock in the afternoon, it's really eleven in the
morning.
More precisely, most of Indiana uses daylight-saving time but, like France
and Spain, is also on the next time zone east of its natural one.

The center of Indianapolis, for example, is at longitude 86°10' W --
much closer to the base meridian of 90°W for Central Time than the 75°W
for Eastern Time. So if it's 1 pm EDT in Indianapolis, then the local
solar time, what Joy calls "real", is a few seconds after 11:15 am.
--
Mark Brader |"It's bad enough that this... font doesn't distinguish
Toronto | between I and l, but I'd never had a problem with V before!"
***@vex.net | -- Steve Summit

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-13 07:23:10 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Joy Beeson
I got confused on my first few long-distance bicycle rides this year
-- until I remembered that Indiana is on double daylight time. When
my watch says one o'clock in the afternoon, it's really eleven in the
morning.
More precisely, most of Indiana uses daylight-saving time but, like France
and Spain, is also on the next time zone east of its natural one.
In the case of Spain (particularly the west of Spain) you need an "at
least one" rather than "next".
Post by Mark Brader
The center of Indianapolis, for example, is at longitude 86°10' W --
much closer to the base meridian of 90°W for Central Time than the 75°W
for Eastern Time. So if it's 1 pm EDT in Indianapolis, then the local
solar time, what Joy calls "real", is a few seconds after 11:15 am.
--
athel
Richard Yates
2018-07-09 00:17:08 UTC
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Post by John Varela
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:17:52 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who
has not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware
of that on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from
a bus station; but in which direction, and which bus station; and
which buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had
studied some maps and bus routes. My wife was completely lost,
even though she knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station,
walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by
looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some
countries you don't have a clue where the sun is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense of
direction falls completely to pieces.
Surely only at midday. The sun still rises in the east and sets in
the west. Of course you have to remember which way is now north and
which is now south, but you can't expect to have everything.
I was watching a television program in which there was a time-lapse
shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It just did not look
right at all and it was quite a while before I realized that it was
rising from the right to the left. I hypothesized about the film being
mistakenly reversed, but everything was clear only when people started
talking.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-10 12:21:08 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
Post by John Varela
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:17:52 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Mind you, that local information is not as useful to someone who
has not _also_ done their own checking. I became very much aware
of that on a recent trip to Brisbane. Our hotel was not far from
a bus station; but in which direction, and which bus station; and
which buses go to that bus station? I knew that because I had
studied some maps and bus routes. My wife was completely lost,
even though she knows Brisbane better than I do.
I should expand on that.
My memorised directions included "after leaving the bus station,
walk west". Now, it turns out that some people can find west by
looking at the sun, and some can't. And, of course, in some
countries you don't have a clue where the sun is.
And in some countries, the sun moveth in a mysterious way.
That's true. Whenever I'm in the northern hemisphere my sense of
direction falls completely to pieces.
Surely only at midday. The sun still rises in the east and sets in
the west. Of course you have to remember which way is now north and
which is now south, but you can't expect to have everything.
I was watching a television program in which there was a time-lapse
shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It just did not look
right at all and it was quite a while before I realized that it was
rising from the right to the left. I hypothesized about the film being
mistakenly reversed, but everything was clear only when people started
talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.

The direction "south" uses the same root as "right (hand)" in the Semitic
languages, because they sensibly (as was done even in the West until a
few centuries ago) "orient" themselves to the "east," i.e. the rising sun.
Richard Tobin
2018-07-10 13:09:28 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Yates
I was watching a television program in which there was a time-lapse
shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It just did not look
right at all and it was quite a while before I realized that it was
rising from the right to the left. I hypothesized about the film being
mistakenly reversed, but everything was clear only when people started
talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
If you face the sun as it rises, it moves up and to the right in the
northern hemisphere, up and to the left in the southern hemisphere.

-- Richard
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-10 13:11:43 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Yates
I was watching a television program in which there was a time-lapse
shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It just did not look
right at all and it was quite a while before I realized that it was
rising from the right to the left. I hypothesized about the film being
mistakenly reversed, but everything was clear only when people started
talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
If you face the sun as it rises, it moves up and to the right in the
northern hemisphere, up and to the left in the southern hemisphere.
If you face the sun as it rises, you soon won't be able to see anything
at all, including its daily course.
Madhu
2018-07-10 16:09:44 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
The direction "south" uses the same root as "right (hand)" in the
Semitic languages, because they sensibly (as was done even in the West
until a few centuries ago) "orient" themselves to the "east," i.e. the
rising sun.
It's the same in sanskrit - dakSiNam is both south and right
Peter Moylan
2018-07-10 16:31:48 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Yates
I was watching a television program in which there was a time-lapse
shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It just did not look
right at all and it was quite a while before I realized that it was
rising from the right to the left. I hypothesized about the film being
mistakenly reversed, but everything was clear only when people started
talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if they're
facing north.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-10 16:38:03 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Yates
I was watching a television program in which there was a time-lapse
shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It just did not look
right at all and it was quite a while before I realized that it was
rising from the right to the left. I hypothesized about the film being
mistakenly reversed, but everything was clear only when people started
talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if they're
facing north.
Depends on the month. They do have summer, even, or especially, all the
way Up There. From March 21 to September 21, it rises and sets north of
east and west. (Which is why we use actual seasons, not calendar-month
seasons.)
Peter Moylan
2018-07-10 17:03:04 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 6:12:45 AM UTC-4, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
I was watching a television program in which there was a
time-lapse shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It
just did not look right at all and it was quite a while before
I realized that it was rising from the right to the left. I
hypothesized about the film being mistakenly reversed, but
everything was clear only when people started talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if
they're facing north.
Depends on the month. They do have summer, even, or especially, all
the way Up There. From March 21 to September 21, it rises and sets
north of east and west. (Which is why we use actual seasons, not
calendar-month seasons.)
I've never denied that 21 March is mid-Spring, and 21 September is
mid-Autumn, in the northern hemisphere.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-10 21:52:24 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Yates
I was watching a television program in which there was a
time-lapse shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It
just did not look right at all and it was quite a while before
I realized that it was rising from the right to the left. I
hypothesized about the film being mistakenly reversed, but
everything was clear only when people started talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if
they're facing north.
Depends on the month. They do have summer, even, or especially, all
the way Up There. From March 21 to September 21, it rises and sets
north of east and west. (Which is why we use actual seasons, not
calendar-month seasons.)
I've never denied that 21 March is mid-Spring, and 21 September is
mid-Autumn, in the northern hemisphere.
No one in the northern hemisphere claims any such thing. March 21 (or
thereabouts, what with precession and nutation) is the first day of
spring, September 21 is the first day of fall.
Paul Wolff
2018-07-10 22:04:24 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 6:12:45 AM UTC-4, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
I was watching a television program in which there was a
time-lapse shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It
just did not look right at all and it was quite a while before
I realized that it was rising from the right to the left. I
hypothesized about the film being mistakenly reversed, but
everything was clear only when people started talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if
they're facing north.
Depends on the month. They do have summer, even, or especially, all
the way Up There. From March 21 to September 21, it rises and sets
north of east and west. (Which is why we use actual seasons, not
calendar-month seasons.)
I've never denied that 21 March is mid-Spring, and 21 September is
mid-Autumn, in the northern hemisphere.
No one in the northern hemisphere claims any such thing. March 21 (or
thereabouts, what with precession and nutation) is the first day of
spring, September 21 is the first day of fall.
It's just conceivable that the four seasons follow one another in every
locality as local climate dictates, and any attempt to nail them to the
calendar with reference to solstices and equinoctes is futile.
--
Paul
Jerry Friedman
2018-07-12 22:32:00 UTC
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...
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
I've never denied that 21 March is mid-Spring, and 21 September is
mid-Autumn, in the northern hemisphere.
No one in the northern hemisphere claims any such thing. March 21 (or
thereabouts, what with precession and nutation) is the first day of
spring, September 21 is the first day of fall.
It's just conceivable that the four seasons follow one another in every
locality as local climate dictates, and any attempt to nail them to the
calendar with reference to solstices and equinoctes is futile.
I'm afraid I'm occasionally rude to people about that. "It's felt like
summer to me for a few weeks now."
--
Jerry Friedman
David Kleinecke
2018-07-12 23:01:22 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
I've never denied that 21 March is mid-Spring, and 21 September is
mid-Autumn, in the northern hemisphere.
No one in the northern hemisphere claims any such thing. March 21 (or
thereabouts, what with precession and nutation) is the first day of
spring, September 21 is the first day of fall.
It's just conceivable that the four seasons follow one another in every
locality as local climate dictates, and any attempt to nail them to the
calendar with reference to solstices and equinoctes is futile.
I'm afraid I'm occasionally rude to people about that. "It's felt like
summer to me for a few weeks now."
Around here it stopped raining May 25th and it's been one
beautiful day after another ever since. We really only have
two seasons - raining and not-raining.
bill van
2018-07-13 03:05:28 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
I've never denied that 21 March is mid-Spring, and 21 September is
mid-Autumn, in the northern hemisphere.
No one in the northern hemisphere claims any such thing. March 21 (or
thereabouts, what with precession and nutation) is the first day of
spring, September 21 is the first day of fall.
It's just conceivable that the four seasons follow one another in every
locality as local climate dictates, and any attempt to nail them to the
calendar with reference to solstices and equinoctes is futile.
I'm afraid I'm occasionally rude to people about that. "It's felt like
summer to me for a few weeks now."
Around here it stopped raining May 25th and it's been one
beautiful day after another ever since. We really only have
two seasons - raining and not-raining.
How are the fires this year? I haven't seen a lot of news coverage.

Here in B.C., we've had more rain this summer than last, and a fairly
benign fire season so far. But we're looking at hot and dry now as far
as the forecast can see, so that could change.

bill
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-13 09:14:52 UTC
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Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 6:12:45 AM UTC-4, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
I was watching a television program in which there was a
time-lapse shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It
just did not look right at all and it was quite a while before
I realized that it was rising from the right to the left. I
hypothesized about the film being mistakenly reversed, but
everything was clear only when people started talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if
they're facing north.
Depends on the month. They do have summer, even, or especially, all
the way Up There. From March 21 to September 21, it rises and sets
north of east and west. (Which is why we use actual seasons, not
calendar-month seasons.)
I've never denied that 21 March is mid-Spring, and 21 September is
mid-Autumn, in the northern hemisphere.
No one in the northern hemisphere claims any such thing. March 21 (or
thereabouts, what with precession and nutation) is the first day of
spring, September 21 is the first day of fall.
It's just conceivable that the four seasons follow one another in every
locality as local climate dictates, and any attempt to nail them to the
calendar with reference to solstices and equinoctes is futile.
Naming it is no doubt futile,
but the actualities were very important.
The growing seasons have narrow windows.
Sow too early and you won't have a crop,
sow too late and you won't have good weather for harvesting.

There was good reason to have a priest class
that could observe, count, and keep track of the calendar,

Jan

.
Anders D. Nygaard
2018-07-12 22:06:54 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Yates
I was watching a television program in which there was a
time-lapse shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It
just did not look right at all and it was quite a while before
I realized that it was rising from the right to the left. I
hypothesized about the film being mistakenly reversed, but
everything was clear only when people started talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if
they're facing north.
Depends on the month. They do have summer, even, or especially, all
the way Up There. From March 21 to September 21, it rises and sets
north of east and west. (Which is why we use actual seasons, not
calendar-month seasons.)
I've never denied that 21 March is mid-Spring, and 21 September is
mid-Autumn, in the northern hemisphere.
Well, it ain't. At least not to this northerner. Spring is March 1st
to May 31st, meaning 21 March is about a quarter into spring.
Similarly 21 September is about a quarter into autumn.

/Anders, Denmark.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-07-10 22:37:41 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 02:31:48 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Yates
I was watching a television program in which there was a time-lapse
shot of the sun rising in the opening sequence. It just did not look
right at all and it was quite a while before I realized that it was
rising from the right to the left. I hypothesized about the film being
mistakenly reversed, but everything was clear only when people started
talking.
? The sun rises on your right if you're facing north, even in England.
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if they're
facing north.
And on many days in England you won't see the sun whichever direction
you look in.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
the Omrud
2018-07-11 19:27:00 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 02:31:48 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if they're
facing north.
And on many days in England you won't see the sun whichever direction
you look in.
Except at the moment. It hasn't rained here since the last couple of
days of May and there have scarcely been any clouds for a month or more.

Our grass is brown and crispy.
--
David
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-07-11 20:28:09 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 02:31:48 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if they're
facing north.
And on many days in England you won't see the sun whichever direction
you look in.
Except at the moment. It hasn't rained here since the last couple of
days of May and there have scarcely been any clouds for a month or more.
Our grass is brown and crispy.
Similar here. We have had a number of weeks without rain. There are dead
leaves on the ground as though it were autumn. There were a few drops of
rain this evening but not enough to be noticed by a rain gauge.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-11 20:48:49 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 02:31:48 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if they're
facing north.
And on many days in England you won't see the sun whichever direction
you look in.
Except at the moment. It hasn't rained here since the last couple of
days of May and there have scarcely been any clouds for a month or more.
Our grass is brown and crispy.
Similar here. We have had a number of weeks without rain. There are dead
leaves on the ground as though it were autumn. There were a few drops of
rain this evening but not enough to be noticed by a rain gauge.
So what's going to happen next week? Hurricane Chris is going to be way
east of Nova Scotia by Saturday.

(Think "gonna" twice.)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-07-11 21:55:07 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:48:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 02:31:48 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if they're
facing north.
And on many days in England you won't see the sun whichever direction
you look in.
Except at the moment. It hasn't rained here since the last couple of
days of May and there have scarcely been any clouds for a month or more.
Our grass is brown and crispy.
Similar here. We have had a number of weeks without rain. There are dead
leaves on the ground as though it were autumn. There were a few drops of
rain this evening but not enough to be noticed by a rain gauge.
So what's going to happen next week? Hurricane Chris is going to be way
east of Nova Scotia by Saturday.
(Think "gonna" twice.)
Quote from a forecaster on a weather forecast website today 11 July
2018:

Chris Changes The Record
You know how it goes, some remnants of a hurricane a thousand miles
away and all of a sudden it's "Blah will hit the UK blah blah".
First up, Hurricane Chris will transform to an extra-tropical system
over the next couple of days as it gets torn apart by the jet
stream. Secondly, those remnants head for Iceland and nowhere near
the UK.
From:
https://www.metcheck.com/WEATHER/discussion.asp?DiscussionID=1221&DiscussionTitle=Chris+Changes+The+Record
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
the Omrud
2018-07-12 07:58:02 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 02:31:48 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
And also in Australia; but in England they won't see the sun if they're
facing north.
And on many days in England you won't see the sun whichever direction
you look in.
Except at the moment. It hasn't rained here since the last couple of
days of May and there have scarcely been any clouds for a month or more.
Our grass is brown and crispy.
Similar here. We have had a number of weeks without rain. There are dead
leaves on the ground as though it were autumn. There were a few drops of
rain this evening but not enough to be noticed by a rain gauge.
So what's going to happen next week? Hurricane Chris is going to be way
east of Nova Scotia by Saturday.
(Think "gonna" twice.)
We are expecting rain by the weekend as the tail-end of Chris hits us,
although downpours won't help much as the ground is compacted. We need
lots of drizzle.
--
David
Peter Moylan
2018-07-12 02:18:29 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
And on many days in England you won't see the sun whichever
direction you look in.
Except at the moment. It hasn't rained here since the last couple of
days of May and there have scarcely been any clouds for a month or more.
Our grass is brown and crispy.
Welcome to Australian weather.

After the extreme weather of the past few years, it's possible that the
only climate change deniers left are those who are making money out of the
fossil fuel industry.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-07 13:24:17 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 06 Jul 2018 22:12:24 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:43:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't suppose St Alban's is anywhere near Oxford?
50-ish miles.
http://tinyurl.com/ybe2aa6u
for
84,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x487638a0e793c909:0x71ec84804
6a64059!2m2!1d-0.339436!2d51.752725!1m5!1m1!1s0x48713380adc41faf:0xc820
dba8cb547402!2m2!1d-1.2577263!2d51.7520209!3e0?hl=en
1 h 8 min, 55.7 miles
1 h 18 min, 47.6 miles
1 h 25 min, 56.7 miles
Public transport is a no-no. You would need to go to London and out
again walking between various bus and rail stations.
I haven't been in that area for a long time. You might get better
information from someone who does know the area.
It's exceedingly good of you to do PTD's homwework for him.
Shithead too lazy to cooperate at anything? or too stupid to comprehend
"I don't suppose"?
HVS
2018-07-06 21:24:12 UTC
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On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 21:17:16 +0100, Katy Jennison
-snip -
Post by Katy Jennison
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it. Mind-boggling. My principal reaction was 'Why?
The invariable answers are "because" or "why not", innit.
HVS
2018-07-06 21:30:08 UTC
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On Fri, 06 Jul 2018 22:24:12 +0100, HVS
Post by HVS
On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 21:17:16 +0100, Katy Jennison
-snip -
Post by Katy Jennison
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it. Mind-boggling. My principal reaction was 'Why?
The invariable answers are "because" or "why not", innit.
Sorry - screwed up the attributions.
Paul Wolff
2018-07-06 21:31:42 UTC
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Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and
descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it. Mind-boggling. My principal reaction was 'Why?'
I haven't. But there's a copy in Reading Museum, about the correct size
I think, stitched up by a posse of Victorian ladies, who left our a few
rude bits on account of delicate feelings. But it's still pretty good.
The dyed threads may even be of better quality than in the original.
There's no need to go to Bayeux, when you've Reading on your doorstep.
--
Paul
Tony Cooper
2018-07-06 21:54:27 UTC
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On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 21:17:16 +0100, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it. Mind-boggling. My principal reaction was 'Why?'
Drifting a bit on the subject...I've never seen the Bayeux tapestry,
but I have seen the Unicorn tapestries at The Cloisters in NYC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_of_the_Unicorn

I've been to The Cloisters three times, and each time I wonder why no
one else seems to go there. Never a crowd, and usually just one or
two others.

I see it's now "The Met Cloisters". A ticket is now a three-day pass
for The Met Cloisters, The Met Fifth Avenue, and The Met Breuer. I've
never been to The Met Breuer. (The "The" in each is capitalized and
part of the name)

Somehow "The Met..." seems a bit slangy and too New Yorkish to me. I
guess I sound like an out-of-towner when I refer to "the Metropolitan
Museum of Art".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-07 03:03:47 UTC
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Post by HVS
On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 21:17:16 +0100, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it. Mind-boggling. My principal reaction was 'Why?'
Drifting a bit on the subject...I've never seen the Bayeux tapestry,
but I have seen the Unicorn tapestries at The Cloisters in NYC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_of_the_Unicorn
I've been to The Cloisters three times, and each time I wonder why no
one else seems to go there. Never a crowd, and usually just one or
two others.
I see it's now "The Met Cloisters".
Always has been. John D. Rockefeller, Jr., purchased the collection _for_
the Met in 1925, and the land and building a few years later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cloisters
Post by HVS
A ticket is now a three-day pass
for The Met Cloisters, The Met Fifth Avenue, and The Met Breuer. I've
never been to The Met Breuer. (The "The" in each is capitalized and
part of the name)
It was the Whitney until a couple of years ago. The Whitney now has a
Piano building in the Meatpacking District and didn't need the Breuer
building any more.
Post by HVS
Somehow "The Met..." seems a bit slangy and too New Yorkish to me. I
guess I sound like an out-of-towner when I refer to "the Metropolitan
Museum of Art".
Wait'll he finds out about the Metropolitan Opera.
Tony Cooper
2018-07-07 04:04:30 UTC
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On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:03:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 21:17:16 +0100, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it. Mind-boggling. My principal reaction was 'Why?'
Drifting a bit on the subject...I've never seen the Bayeux tapestry,
but I have seen the Unicorn tapestries at The Cloisters in NYC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_of_the_Unicorn
I've been to The Cloisters three times, and each time I wonder why no
one else seems to go there. Never a crowd, and usually just one or
two others.
I see it's now "The Met Cloisters".
Always has been. John D. Rockefeller, Jr., purchased the collection _for_
the Met in 1925, and the land and building a few years later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cloisters
I don't think you're right. The quotes in my post indicate that the
name of the place is now "The Met Cloisters". It used to be "The
Cloisters" without "The Met" in front of it.

Looking in my copy of the "New York Art Guide" (1987), it is listed as
"The Cloisters". It's my feeling that at some time the name became
"The Met Cloisters", but I don't know when that change was made.

I already knew it was part of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It's
the name change that I'm pointing out with the "now".

I'm guessing that the change was made in 2016 when the Metropolitan
Museum of Art became "The Met Fifth Avenue":

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Metropolitan-Museum-of-Art
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
A ticket is now a three-day pass
for The Met Cloisters, The Met Fifth Avenue, and The Met Breuer. I've
never been to The Met Breuer. (The "The" in each is capitalized and
part of the name)
It was the Whitney until a couple of years ago.
Ah, then, I have been there.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
Somehow "The Met..." seems a bit slangy and too New Yorkish to me. I
guess I sound like an out-of-towner when I refer to "the Metropolitan
Museum of Art".
Wait'll he finds out about the Metropolitan Opera.
You still aren't getting it. I know they are both known as "The Met",
but it's the "The Met..." (with other words following) that is
different.

It seems to be a branding thing. There are several hits about the
change in admission fees, but nothing I could find on the change in
name for The Cloisters.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-07 13:20:02 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:03:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Drifting a bit on the subject...I've never seen the Bayeux tapestry,
but I have seen the Unicorn tapestries at The Cloisters in NYC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_of_the_Unicorn
I've been to The Cloisters three times, and each time I wonder why no
one else seems to go there. Never a crowd, and usually just one or
two others.
I see it's now "The Met Cloisters".
Always has been. John D. Rockefeller, Jr., purchased the collection _for_
the Met in 1925, and the land and building a few years later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cloisters
I don't think you're right. The quotes in my post indicate that the
name of the place is now "The Met Cloisters". It used to be "The
Cloisters" without "The Met" in front of it.
Looking in my copy of the "New York Art Guide" (1987), it is listed as
"The Cloisters". It's my feeling that at some time the name became
"The Met Cloisters", but I don't know when that change was made.
Maybe the next time I visit my cousins, I'll go the extra nearly-mile and
see what the signs say.
Post by Tony Cooper
I already knew it was part of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It's
the name change that I'm pointing out with the "now".
I'm guessing that the change was made in 2016 when the Metropolitan
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Metropolitan-Museum-of-Art
That would coincide with the annexation of the "Met Breuer."
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
A ticket is now a three-day pass
for The Met Cloisters, The Met Fifth Avenue, and The Met Breuer. I've
never been to The Met Breuer. (The "The" in each is capitalized and
part of the name)
It was the Whitney until a couple of years ago.
Ah, then, I have been there.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Somehow "The Met..." seems a bit slangy and too New Yorkish to me. I
guess I sound like an out-of-towner when I refer to "the Metropolitan
Museum of Art".
Wait'll he finds out about the Metropolitan Opera.
You still aren't getting it. I know they are both known as "The Met",
but it's the "The Met..." (with other words following) that is
different.
It seems to be a branding thing. There are several hits about the
change in admission fees, but nothing I could find on the change in
name for The Cloisters.
Since I'll never be going to any of the three again (they didn't announce
that they will imitate every other overpriced museum in the city by
instituting a "free evening"), it doesn't much matter to me.

In my yout', no museums charged an admission fee. The Hayden Planetarium
was 50c like a movie -- not included in admission to the American Museum
of Natural History.

Sometimes I would walk home from church (about 2 miles), on the way buying
a loaf of rye bread at one of the Romanian Jewish bakeries that graced the
neighborhood, and a Sunday New York Times, and sit in one of the cloisters
for a while. No longer an option. The bakeries were probably all gone be-
fore admission began to be charged, their proprietors retired to Florida.
the Omrud
2018-07-07 07:46:35 UTC
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Post by Katy Jennison
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it.  Mind-boggling.  My principal reaction was 'Why?'
Blimey.

I see it's going to Oxfordshire, which is easier for us to reach than St
Albans. It's on the list.
--
David
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-07 14:05:38 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
Post by Katy Jennison
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it.  Mind-boggling.  My principal reaction was 'Why?'
Blimey.
I see it's going to Oxfordshire, which is easier for us to reach than
St Albans. It's on the list.
Maybe you can combine it with partipating in the boink.
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2018-07-07 15:00:59 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by the Omrud
Post by Katy Jennison
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it.  Mind-boggling.  My principal reaction was 'Why?'
Blimey.
I see it's going to Oxfordshire, which is easier for us to reach than
St Albans.  It's on the list.
Maybe you can combine it with partipating in the boink.
It's not going to Oxfordshire (specifically Woodstock) till September.
--
Jerry Friedman came upon a child of God.
the Omrud
2018-07-07 17:57:43 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by the Omrud
Post by Katy Jennison
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it.  Mind-boggling.  My principal reaction was 'Why?'
Blimey.
I see it's going to Oxfordshire, which is easier for us to reach than
St Albans.  It's on the list.
Maybe you can combine it with partipating in the boink.
It's not going to Oxfordshire (specifically Woodstock) till September.
Yep. I shall return. I have family in Oxford so I have an excuse. One
of these family members is the daughter of the younger girl in my
photos, and I bet she's never seen then.
--
David
occam
2018-07-07 11:47:19 UTC
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Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
No words? Have you seen it?
It can be seen here "with Latin text and translation" and descriptive
http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/
Post by Lanarcam
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Never fear: if we miss the original there's always this quite
extraordinary recreation made of three million little bits of steel.
https://medievalmosaic.com/
I've seen it.  Mind-boggling.  My principal reaction was 'Why?'
It's digitized, and it's metalized. It's a 21st century re-release.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-07 06:15:04 UTC
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Post by occam
There is a news article on the BBC web site about the Bayeux tapestry
being loaned to the UK by France.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44732897
"The two countries will also work together to produce a full English
translation of the tapestry."
How do you translate what is essentially a cartoon strip with no words?
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Some years ago the city of Seville loaned Christopher Columbus's
personal library to Marseilles. (We went to see it, and I was quite
surprised to see from his handwritten notes how erudite he was; my wife
said that the the idea that he was an ignorant illiterate sailor was
just an English prejudice.) Anyway, we learned that Genoa had been very
anxious to have it for an exhibition there, but apparently the people
in Seville doubted whether they'd ever see the books again if they
allowed them to go to Genoa.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-07 13:22:40 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by occam
"The tapestry - said to have been created by nuns in England in the 11th
Century - depicts the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."
Is it being returned or loaned, if it was created by nuns in England? I
hope this is not going to form part of the Brexit negotiations - in
which case it may never cross the channel.
Some years ago the city of Seville loaned Christopher Columbus's
personal library to Marseilles. (We went to see it, and I was quite
surprised to see from his handwritten notes how erudite he was; my wife
said that the the idea that he was an ignorant illiterate sailor was
just an English prejudice.)
(We never heard that particular story, even after he stopped being a hero
and started being an oppressive exploiter of the Native populations.)
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Anyway, we learned that Genoa had been very
anxious to have it for an exhibition there, but apparently the people
in Seville doubted whether they'd ever see the books again if they
allowed them to go to Genoa.
Kinda like the Elgin Marbles.

OTOH, the BM did get the Cyrus Cylinder back from Teheran.
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