Discussion:
Linguistics don'r get no respect.
(too old to reply)
David Kleinecke
2017-04-20 23:03:12 UTC
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I found this online and I think it's funny:

Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. “It’s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet…and now today, the AP is leading the charge again.”

What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.

PS: American Copy Editors Society
Jack Campin
2017-04-20 23:34:18 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. “It’s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet
and now today, the AP is leading the charge again.”
What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.
PS: American Copy Editors Society
Shouldn't it be American Copy Editors' Society?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
David Kleinecke
2017-04-21 01:53:53 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. “It’s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet…and now today, the AP is leading the charge again.”
What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.
PS: American Copy Editors Society
Shouldn't it be American Copy Editors' Society?
They are very coy about what their name is - they almost
always write just ACES. But I tracked down a instance of
the full name (on their donation form).

No apostrophe.
bill van
2017-04-21 05:46:07 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Jack Campin
Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. “It’s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet
and now today, the AP is leading the charge again.”
What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.
PS: American Copy Editors Society
Shouldn't it be American Copy Editors' Society?
They are very coy about what their name is - they almost
always write just ACES. But I tracked down a instance of
the full name (on their donation form).
No apostrophe.
I think they're embarrassed. My guess is that their board of directors'
discussions about whether to restore the apostrophe are held in camera.
--
bill
Theodore Heise
2017-04-22 12:01:46 UTC
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On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:53:53 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Jack Campin
Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. ???It???s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet???and now today, the AP is leading the charge
again.???
What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.
PS: American Copy Editors Society
Shouldn't it be American Copy Editors' Society?
They are very coy about what their name is - they almost always
write just ACES. But I tracked down a instance of the full name
(on their donation form).
No apostrophe.
So this is usage I've questioned at work. From time to time we
will organize a meeting of principal investigators for one of the
clinical studies we sponsor. The group that manages the logistics
has settled on "Investigators' Meeting" to describe the activity,
but I contend the apostrophe is not needed. The meeting is of
(and for) the investigators, but does not belong to them (many
folks from the sponsoring company also attend and participate).

Similarly here, the society is for copy editors, but maybe(?) not
owned by them--almost certainly not by all of them, at any rate.
--
Ted Heise <***@panix.com> Bloomington, IN, USA
occam
2017-04-22 17:43:29 UTC
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Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:53:53 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Jack Campin
Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. ???It???s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet???and now today, the AP is leading the charge
again.???
What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.
PS: American Copy Editors Society
Shouldn't it be American Copy Editors' Society?
They are very coy about what their name is - they almost always
write just ACES. But I tracked down a instance of the full name
(on their donation form).
No apostrophe.
So this is usage I've questioned at work. From time to time we
will organize a meeting of principal investigators for one of the
clinical studies we sponsor. The group that manages the logistics
has settled on "Investigators' Meeting" to describe the activity,
but I contend the apostrophe is not needed. The meeting is of
(and for) the investigators, but does not belong to them (many
folks from the sponsoring company also attend and participate).
Similarly here, the society is for copy editors, but maybe(?) not
owned by them--almost certainly not by all of them, at any rate.
This ownership / belonging explanation is grasping at straws. A
ploughman's lunch does not belong to the ploughman, yet it requires an
apostrophe. St. John's college does not belong to St. John, yet it
takes an apostrophe. And so on...
Richard Yates
2017-04-22 22:25:15 UTC
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On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:01:46 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:53:53 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Jack Campin
Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. ???It???s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet???and now today, the AP is leading the charge
again.???
What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.
PS: American Copy Editors Society
Shouldn't it be American Copy Editors' Society?
They are very coy about what their name is - they almost always
write just ACES. But I tracked down a instance of the full name
(on their donation form).
No apostrophe.
So this is usage I've questioned at work. From time to time we
will organize a meeting of principal investigators for one of the
clinical studies we sponsor. The group that manages the logistics
has settled on "Investigators' Meeting" to describe the activity,
but I contend the apostrophe is not needed. The meeting is of
(and for) the investigators, but does not belong to them (many
folks from the sponsoring company also attend and participate).
Similarly here, the society is for copy editors, but maybe(?) not
owned by them--almost certainly not by all of them, at any rate.
The society does not belong to the members, but the members do belong
to the society. Cf. John's alma mater, Mary's generation.
David Kleinecke
2017-04-22 23:28:38 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:01:46 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:53:53 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Jack Campin
Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. ???It???s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet???and now today, the AP is leading the charge
again.???
What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.
PS: American Copy Editors Society
Shouldn't it be American Copy Editors' Society?
They are very coy about what their name is - they almost always
write just ACES. But I tracked down a instance of the full name
(on their donation form).
No apostrophe.
So this is usage I've questioned at work. From time to time we
will organize a meeting of principal investigators for one of the
clinical studies we sponsor. The group that manages the logistics
has settled on "Investigators' Meeting" to describe the activity,
but I contend the apostrophe is not needed. The meeting is of
(and for) the investigators, but does not belong to them (many
folks from the sponsoring company also attend and participate).
Similarly here, the society is for copy editors, but maybe(?) not
owned by them--almost certainly not by all of them, at any rate.
The society does not belong to the members, but the members do belong
to the society. Cf. John's alma mater, Mary's generation.
Possession can get VERY abstract. Consider
the empty set's successor
this doesn't even have a meaning unless you know a definition
of "successor". In classical set theory the empty set is also
named 0 and its successor is defined as 1.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-04-23 11:23:52 UTC
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On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 16:28:38 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Richard Yates
On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:01:46 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:53:53 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Jack Campin
Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. ???It???s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet???and now today, the AP is leading the charge
again.???
What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.
PS: American Copy Editors Society
Shouldn't it be American Copy Editors' Society?
They are very coy about what their name is - they almost always
write just ACES. But I tracked down a instance of the full name
(on their donation form).
No apostrophe.
So this is usage I've questioned at work. From time to time we
will organize a meeting of principal investigators for one of the
clinical studies we sponsor. The group that manages the logistics
has settled on "Investigators' Meeting" to describe the activity,
but I contend the apostrophe is not needed. The meeting is of
(and for) the investigators, but does not belong to them (many
folks from the sponsoring company also attend and participate).
Similarly here, the society is for copy editors, but maybe(?) not
owned by them--almost certainly not by all of them, at any rate.
The society does not belong to the members, but the members do belong
to the society. Cf. John's alma mater, Mary's generation.
Possession can get VERY abstract. Consider
the empty set's successor
this doesn't even have a meaning unless you know a definition
of "successor". In classical set theory the empty set is also
named 0 and its successor is defined as 1.
From the AUE website "Genitive is Not Always Possessive":
https://web.archive.org/web/20160707185357/http://alt-usage-english.org/genitive_and_possessive.html

by Bob Cunningham

Over the years there have been postings to AUE that were based upon
the misconception that the genitive case always indicates
possession. This fallacy leads to people saying things like 'It
can't be right to say "the room's furnishings" because a room can't
possess something.'

The genitive case is in fact used for several things besides
possession. Bergen and Cornelia Evans, in A Dictionary of
Contemporary American Usage, discuss seven genitive types:

1. Classifying or descriptive genitive ("the room's furnishings")
2. Possessive genitive ("Irene's coat")
3. Subjective and objective genitive ("God's creation")
4. Genitive of purpose ("He has written many children's books.")
5. Measures and other adverbial genitives ("At one time the genitive
form of certain words could be used as an adverb. Most of our
adverbs that end in an 's' (or 'z') sound, such as "nowadays,"
"since," "sometimes," "upwards," are survivals from this period.)
6. Survivals of "an old genitive of source" ("hen's eggs")
7. Partitive and appositive genitives (don't exist in English, but
we express them with an "of" phrase, as in "some of us," "the
state of Ohio," "the title of president")

(The Evanses give a detailed discussion of each type; I've only
hinted at their discussions, mostly by giving a few examples.)

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage says, in part:

Bishop Lowth in 1762 used the word possessive in place of the older
term genitive; so then did other 18th-century grammarians, and many
grammarians since have used it. This change in terminology has led
to a few minor usage problems based on the erroneous supposition
that the only function of the genitive is to show possession. [...]
Fries found that the possessive genitive was the most common, but
that it accounted for only 40-percent of all genitives.

They discuss a number of uses of the genitive and give examples of
each. Under 'descriptive genitive or classifying genitive', with the
comment 'Fries adds the genitive of measure to this', they list:

the room's furnishings
the airplane's speed
the building's foundation
one day's leave
a dollar's worth
a year's wages
the Eighty Years' War

A comment in MWDEU concerns the rephrasing of the genitive with
apostrophe to a structure with a prepositional phrase, as in:

'the airplane's speed' => 'the speed of the airplane'.

They point out that in what one grammarian (Evans) has called the
genitive of purpose the prepositional phrase must use the
preposition 'for' rather than 'of', as in:

'men's shirts' => 'shirts for men', and
'a girls' school' => 'a school for girls'.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Theodore Heise
2017-04-23 11:49:51 UTC
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On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 12:23:52 +0100,
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 16:28:38 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
Post by Richard Yates
On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:01:46 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:53:53 -0700 (PDT),
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Jack Campin
Shouldn't it be American Copy Editors' Society?
They are very coy about what their name is - they almost
always write just ACES. But I tracked down a instance of
the full name (on their donation form).
No apostrophe.
So this is usage I've questioned at work. From time to time
we will organize a meeting of principal investigators for
one of the clinical studies we sponsor. The group that
manages the logistics has settled on "Investigators'
Meeting" to describe the activity, but I contend the
apostrophe is not needed. The meeting is of (and for) the
investigators, but does not belong to them (many folks from
the sponsoring company also attend and participate).
Similarly here, the society is for copy editors, but
maybe(?) not owned by them--almost certainly not by all of
them, at any rate.
The society does not belong to the members, but the members
do belong to the society. Cf. John's alma mater, Mary's
generation.
Possession can get VERY abstract. Consider the empty set's
successor this doesn't even have a meaning unless you know a
definition of "successor". In classical set theory the empty
set is also named 0 and its successor is defined as 1.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160707185357/http://alt-usage-english.org/genitive_and_possessive.html
by Bob Cunningham
Over the years there have been postings to AUE that were based upon
the misconception that the genitive case always indicates
possession. This fallacy leads to people saying things like 'It
can't be right to say "the room's furnishings" because a room can't
possess something.'
The genitive case is in fact used for several things besides
possession. Bergen and Cornelia Evans, in A Dictionary of
1. Classifying or descriptive genitive ("the room's furnishings")
2. Possessive genitive ("Irene's coat")
3. Subjective and objective genitive ("God's creation")
4. Genitive of purpose ("He has written many children's books.")
5. Measures and other adverbial genitives ("At one time the genitive
form of certain words could be used as an adverb. Most of our
adverbs that end in an 's' (or 'z') sound, such as "nowadays,"
"since," "sometimes," "upwards," are survivals from this period.)
6. Survivals of "an old genitive of source" ("hen's eggs")
7. Partitive and appositive genitives (don't exist in English, but
we express them with an "of" phrase, as in "some of us," "the
state of Ohio," "the title of president")
(The Evanses give a detailed discussion of each type; I've only
hinted at their discussions, mostly by giving a few examples.)
Bishop Lowth in 1762 used the word possessive in place of the older
term genitive; so then did other 18th-century grammarians, and many
grammarians since have used it. This change in terminology has led
to a few minor usage problems based on the erroneous supposition
that the only function of the genitive is to show possession. [...]
Fries found that the possessive genitive was the most common, but
that it accounted for only 40-percent of all genitives.
They discuss a number of uses of the genitive and give examples of
each. Under 'descriptive genitive or classifying genitive', with the
the room's furnishings
the airplane's speed
the building's foundation
one day's leave
a dollar's worth
a year's wages
the Eighty Years' War
A comment in MWDEU concerns the rephrasing of the genitive with
'the airplane's speed' => 'the speed of the airplane'.
They point out that in what one grammarian (Evans) has called the
genitive of purpose the prepositional phrase must use the
'men's shirts' => 'shirts for men', and
'a girls' school' => 'a school for girls'.
This is very informative, thanks for posting it. Interestingly,
understanding the specific case (heh) that I asked about isn't
helped with use of this test from MWDEU, as it could be said
either way ("meeting of investigators" or "meeting of
investigators"). So it seems if the apostrophe is correct in
this case, it must be due to one of the other causes from the list
Bob quoted--maybe item 3 or 4?
--
Ted Heise <***@panix.com> Bloomington, IN, USA
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-21 03:19:06 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. “It’s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet…and now today, the AP is leading the charge again.”
What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.
PS: American Copy Editors Society
Would you have preferred "languagey"? It doesn't say linguistics news.
David Kleinecke
2017-04-21 03:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big linguistic news
breaks. “It’s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet…and now today, the AP is leading the charge again.”
What I find funny is what some people think linguistics is
about.
PS: American Copy Editors Society
Would you have preferred "languagey"? It doesn't say linguistics news.
Post by David Kleinecke
Fogarty says ACES is where all the big
linguistic news
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by David Kleinecke
breaks. “It’s where we first heard in 2011 that the
Associated Press would no longer use a hyphen in email
and in 2016 that the Associate Press would lowercase
internet…and now today, the AP is leading the charge again.”
I think, within that context,"linguistic news" vs "linguistics
news" is an insignificant difference (although the two phrases
do not mean exactly the same thing).
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