Discussion:
wine and beer/ambiguity question
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a***@gmail.com
2018-05-14 17:47:01 UTC
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1) The guests drank wine and beer.

2) The guests drank wine or beer.

3) The guests drank either wine or beer.


Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?
Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?

Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?

Gratefully,
Navi
Lanarcam
2018-05-14 17:52:47 UTC
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Le 14/05/2018 à 19:47, ***@gmail.com a écrit :
>
> Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?
>
Some were civilized, others not so much and the rest not at all...
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-14 18:52:43 UTC
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On Mon, 14 May 2018 19:52:47 +0200, Lanarcam <***@yahoo.fr> wrote:

>Le 14/05/2018 à 19:47, ***@gmail.com a écrit :
>>
>> Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
>> beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?
>>
>Some were civilized, others not so much and the rest not at all...

<smile>

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Richard Yates
2018-05-14 18:14:20 UTC
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On Mon, 14 May 2018 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT), ***@gmail.com wrote:

>1) The guests drank wine and beer.
>
>2) The guests drank wine or beer.
>
>3) The guests drank either wine or beer.
>
>
>Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?

Yes. Unless there was other information, 1) could mean any of the
combinations including some who did not drank. 1) can mean that wine
and beer were served without necessarily implying anything about who
drank what.

>Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?

No - in fact the opposite. In the absence of other context, the most
likely and realistic interpretation wins (and that rule applies to
many, many of your questions and samples). Not many people drink both
at one event. Certainly far more have wine or have beer so that
meaning is assumed among competing interpretations. This assumption is
shared by the speaker and the listener. I don't know if Grice spelled
this one out, but it is of that nature.

>Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?

If you were trying to be that specific without risking ambiguity, then
you would write "some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
beer and a third group drank both wine and beer"
Harrison Hill
2018-05-14 18:56:59 UTC
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On Monday, 14 May 2018 18:47:04 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> 1) The guests drank wine and beer.
>
> 2) The guests drank wine or beer.
>
> 3) The guests drank either wine or beer.
>
>
> Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?
> Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?
>
> Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?
>
> Gratefully,
> Navi

Your second perfect posting of idiomatic English in a row.
Bet you can't hold together a third :)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-14 20:02:42 UTC
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On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 2:57:09 PM UTC-4, Harrison Hill wrote:
> On Monday, 14 May 2018 18:47:04 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com wrote:

> > 1) The guests drank wine and beer.
> > 2) The guests drank wine or beer.
> > 3) The guests drank either wine or beer.
> >
> > Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?
> > Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?
> >
> > Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> > beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?
>
> Your second perfect posting of idiomatic English in a row.
> Bet you can't hold together a third :)

Except this time the queries are typically cockamamie.
b***@aol.com
2018-05-15 13:39:09 UTC
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Le lundi 14 mai 2018 22:02:45 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 2:57:09 PM UTC-4, Harrison Hill wrote:
> > On Monday, 14 May 2018 18:47:04 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > 1) The guests drank wine and beer.
> > > 2) The guests drank wine or beer.
> > > 3) The guests drank either wine or beer.
> > >
> > > Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?
> > > Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?
> > >
> > > Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> > > beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?
> >
> > Your second perfect posting of idiomatic English in a row.
> > Bet you can't hold together a third :)
>
> Except this time the queries are typically cockamamie.

Not any more or less than most of the OP's queries, where the exact
same "ambiguity" issue recurs, with virtually the exact same answers
by the exact same posters.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-15 14:22:22 UTC
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On 2018-05-15 15:39:09 +0200, ***@aol.com said:

> Le lundi 14 mai 2018 22:02:45 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>
>> [ ... ]

>>
>> Except this time the queries are typically cockamamie.
>
> Not any more or less than most of the OP's queries, where the exact
> same "ambiguity" issue recurs, with virtually the exact same answers
> by the exact same posters.

Touché.


--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-15 14:36:49 UTC
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On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:39:11 AM UTC-4, ***@aol.com wrote:
> Le lundi 14 mai 2018 22:02:45 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 2:57:09 PM UTC-4, Harrison Hill wrote:
> > > On Monday, 14 May 2018 18:47:04 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > 1) The guests drank wine and beer.
> > > > 2) The guests drank wine or beer.
> > > > 3) The guests drank either wine or beer.
> > > > Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?
> > > > Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?
> > > > Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> > > > beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?
> > > Your second perfect posting of idiomatic English in a row.
> > > Bet you can't hold together a third :)
> > Except this time the queries are typically cockamamie.
>
> Not any more or less than most of the OP's queries,

That's the meaning of "typically."

> where the exact
> same "ambiguity" issue recurs, with virtually the exact same answers
> by the exact same posters.
b***@aol.com
2018-05-15 14:58:10 UTC
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Le mardi 15 mai 2018 16:36:52 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:39:11 AM UTC-4, ***@aol.com wrote:
> > Le lundi 14 mai 2018 22:02:45 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 2:57:09 PM UTC-4, Harrison Hill wrote:
> > > > On Monday, 14 May 2018 18:47:04 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > 1) The guests drank wine and beer.
> > > > > 2) The guests drank wine or beer.
> > > > > 3) The guests drank either wine or beer.
> > > > > Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?
> > > > > Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?
> > > > > Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> > > > > beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?
> > > > Your second perfect posting of idiomatic English in a row.
> > > > Bet you can't hold together a third :)
> > > Except this time the queries are typically cockamamie.
> >
> > Not any more or less than most of the OP's queries,
>
> That's the meaning of "typically."

Not when preceded by "except", which implies that "typically cockamamie"
means "cockamamie by typical standards of 'cockamaminess'" vs "cockamamie as compared to the OP's typical queries".

>
> > where the exact
> > same "ambiguity" issue recurs, with virtually the exact same answers
> > by the exact same posters.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-15 20:14:41 UTC
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On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 10:58:12 AM UTC-4, ***@aol.com wrote:
> Le mardi 15 mai 2018 16:36:52 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:39:11 AM UTC-4, ***@aol.com wrote:
> > > Le lundi 14 mai 2018 22:02:45 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 2:57:09 PM UTC-4, Harrison Hill wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, 14 May 2018 18:47:04 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > > > 1) The guests drank wine and beer.
> > > > > > 2) The guests drank wine or beer.
> > > > > > 3) The guests drank either wine or beer.
> > > > > > Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?
> > > > > > Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?
> > > > > > Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> > > > > > beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?
> > > > > Your second perfect posting of idiomatic English in a row.
> > > > > Bet you can't hold together a third :)
> > > > Except this time the queries are typically cockamamie.
> > > Not any more or less than most of the OP's queries,
> > That's the meaning of "typically."
>
> Not when preceded by "except", which implies that "typically cockamamie"
> means "cockamamie by typical standards of 'cockamaminess'" vs "cockamamie as compared to the OP's typical queries".

No. Everyone knows arthur-Navi's queries. Those in this thread are typical
-- only the examples are atypical in all of them being ordinary, fully
acceptable, uncontorted English sentences.
b***@aol.com
2018-05-16 13:48:58 UTC
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Le mardi 15 mai 2018 22:14:43 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 10:58:12 AM UTC-4, ***@aol.com wrote:
> > Le mardi 15 mai 2018 16:36:52 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:39:11 AM UTC-4, ***@aol.com wrote:
> > > > Le lundi 14 mai 2018 22:02:45 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > > On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 2:57:09 PM UTC-4, Harrison Hill wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, 14 May 2018 18:47:04 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > > 1) The guests drank wine and beer.
> > > > > > > 2) The guests drank wine or beer.
> > > > > > > 3) The guests drank either wine or beer.
> > > > > > > Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?
> > > > > > > Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?
> > > > > > > Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> > > > > > > beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?
> > > > > > Your second perfect posting of idiomatic English in a row.
> > > > > > Bet you can't hold together a third :)
> > > > > Except this time the queries are typically cockamamie.
> > > > Not any more or less than most of the OP's queries,
> > > That's the meaning of "typically."
> >
> > Not when preceded by "except", which implies that "typically cockamamie"
> > means "cockamamie by typical standards of 'cockamaminess'" vs "cockamamie as compared to the OP's typical queries".
>
> No. Everyone knows arthur-Navi's queries. Those in this thread are typical
> -- only the examples are atypical in all of them being ordinary, fully
> acceptable, uncontorted English sentences.

I see, but the initial wording is misleading as "Except this time" can be
taken to refer to a unique occurrence of the queries being cockamamie.
Maybe "However, as usual, the queries are cockamamie" or the like would
have been clearer.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-14 21:07:49 UTC
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On 2018-05-14 17:47:01 +0000, ***@gmail.com said:

> 1) The guests drank wine and beer.
>
> 2) The guests drank wine or beer.
>
> 3) The guests drank either wine or beer.
>
>
> Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?

Yes

> Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?

No
>
> Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?

If that's what you want it to mean that's what it needs to say. (I have
the feeling I've said similar things before.)



--
athel
s***@gmail.com
2018-05-17 20:39:33 UTC
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On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 10:47:04 AM UTC-7, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> 1) The guests drank wine and beer.
>
> 2) The guests drank wine or beer.
>
> 3) The guests drank either wine or beer.
>
>
> Can one use '1' if some drank wine and the others beer?
> Does '1' necessarily imply that each guest drank both wine and beer?
>
> Which would be used if some of the guests only drank wine, some only drank
> beer and a third group drank both wine and beer?

Here's what's needed: Something for the wine and beer to wash down.
<URL:https://www.eventbrite.com/rally/united-states/10-most-ridiculous-burgers-in-america/>

/dps "My last burger was on a brioche bun, but I didn't get that fancy with toppings"
s***@gmail.com
2018-05-17 20:40:43 UTC
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> /dps "My last burger was on a brioche bun, but I didn't get that fancy with toppings"

Avocado and bacon were plenty.

/dps
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