Discussion:
need vs should
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LezaWang
2018-01-08 20:22:37 UTC
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Hello
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences

1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?

Which one is more suitable from English point of view?

Also I want to know what is the difference between "need" and "should have" in the following:

- They should have created order A
- They need to create order A

which one of the above is correct and make more sense?

Thank you so much.
Mark Brader
2018-01-08 21:23:34 UTC
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Post by LezaWang
Hello
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences
1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?
Which one is more suitable from English point of view?
Both are wrong. Questions in English generally require an inversion
between the main and auxiliary verb, using a form of the auxiliary
"do" if there was no auxiliary. You meant:

1) ......What order *should they* create?
2) ..... What order *do* they need to create?

Both are correct and in some cases either one would work. "Need"
suggests that they will be in trouble if they don't do it; it might
be a matter of law, or a matter of physical constraints. "Should"
suggests that someone will find it distressing if they don't do it:
it might be a matter of moral obligation, or it might be a matter
of need.

For example, if the reason they are creating the order is that it's
part of their job to do it, either one works.
Post by LezaWang
Also I want to know what is the difference between "need" and "should
- They should have created order A
- They need to create order A
which one of the above is correct and make more sense?
Now you've used two different tenses. You should have asked about:

- They should have created order A
- They needed to create order A

Or:

- They should create order A
- They need to create order A

In either case, my previous answer applies.
--
Mark Brader | "In a perfect world, the person of authority responds
Toronto | to needs rather than to demands. That's not the way
***@vex.net | the system works, though." --Tony Cooper

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-09 09:32:58 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by LezaWang
Hello
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences
1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?
Which one is more suitable from English point of view?
Both are wrong.
and neither is a sentence, unless reordered as you suggest to make it
clear they are supposed to be questions. The question marks by
themselves are not enough, because they are sometimes used after
regular sentences to indicate the author's surprise or puzzlement
(don't do that, however; it's not good practice except in very informal
writing). Also, putting a space before a question mark is obsolete in
English (though very much alive in French).
Post by Mark Brader
Questions in English generally require an inversion
between the main and auxiliary verb, using a form of the auxiliary
1) ......What order *should they* create?
2) ..... What order *do* they need to create?
Both are correct and in some cases either one would work. "Need"
suggests that they will be in trouble if they don't do it; it might
be a matter of law, or a matter of physical constraints. "Should"
it might be a matter of moral obligation, or it might be a matter
of need.
For example, if the reason they are creating the order is that it's
part of their job to do it, either one works.
Post by LezaWang
Also I want to know what is the difference between "need" and "should
- They should have created order A
- They need to create order A
which one of the above is correct and make more sense?
- They should have created order A
- They needed to create order A
- They should create order A
- They need to create order A
In either case, my previous answer applies.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-09 15:30:44 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mark Brader
Post by LezaWang
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences
1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?
Which one is more suitable from English point of view?
Both are wrong.
and neither is a sentence, unless reordered as you suggest to make it
clear they are supposed to be questions. The question marks by
themselves are not enough, because they are sometimes used after
regular sentences to indicate the author's surprise or puzzlement
(don't do that, however; it's not good practice except in very informal
writing). Also, putting a space before a question mark is obsolete in
English (though very much alive in French).
They're fine in Chinese, which is different from English in a number of ways.
Tony Cooper
2018-01-08 21:33:27 UTC
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Post by LezaWang
Hello
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences
1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?
Which one is more suitable from English point of view?
- They should have created order A
The above describes what happened in the past.
Post by LezaWang
- They need to create order A
The above describes what must be done in the future.
Post by LezaWang
which one of the above is correct and make more sense?
Depends on the context.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Don P
2018-01-09 19:58:09 UTC
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Post by LezaWang
Hello
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences
1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?
Which one is more suitable from English point of view?
- They should have created order A
- They need to create order A
which one of the above is correct and make more sense?
Many people use these two verbs interchangeably, i.e. do not
discriminate between them.

The observable difference is that we usually reserve "should" for
sentences about people: so that "should" fits both specimen sentences
here.

Until fairly recently, language scholars scorned as ruralisms such
sentences as "that flat tyre needs repairing" because inanimate objects
cannot by themselves have needs: only their human users can have needs
or be under some obligation. However, this pedantic assessment denies
other people the right to (mis)use the language as they please.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-09 22:27:01 UTC
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Post by Don P
Post by LezaWang
Hello
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences
1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?
Which one is more suitable from English point of view?
- They should have created order A
- They need to create order A
which one of the above is correct and make more sense?
Many people use these two verbs interchangeably, i.e. do not
discriminate between them.
The observable difference is that we usually reserve "should" for
sentences about people: so that "should" fits both specimen sentences
here.
Until fairly recently, language scholars scorned as ruralisms such
sentences as "that flat tyre needs repairing" because inanimate objects
cannot by themselves have needs: only their human users can have needs
or be under some obligation. However, this pedantic assessment denies
other people the right to (mis)use the language as they please.
I haven't encoutered such "scorn" and would have no problem with such a
sentence. A regionalism, however, is "that tire needs repaired," which
is typical of the Pittsburgh dialect area (stretching down to northern
West Virginia and up to Erie, so far).
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-01-10 00:00:43 UTC
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On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 14:27:01 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
Post by LezaWang
Hello
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences
1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?
Which one is more suitable from English point of view?
- They should have created order A
- They need to create order A
which one of the above is correct and make more sense?
Many people use these two verbs interchangeably, i.e. do not
discriminate between them.
The observable difference is that we usually reserve "should" for
sentences about people: so that "should" fits both specimen sentences
here.
Until fairly recently, language scholars scorned as ruralisms such
sentences as "that flat tyre needs repairing" because inanimate objects
cannot by themselves have needs: only their human users can have needs
or be under some obligation. However, this pedantic assessment denies
other people the right to (mis)use the language as they please.
I haven't encoutered such "scorn" and would have no problem with such a
sentence. A regionalism, however, is "that tire needs repaired," which
is typical of the Pittsburgh dialect area (stretching down to northern
West Virginia and up to Erie, so far).
That regionalism is also used in Irish English.

I interpret "needs repaired" as an abbreviated version of "needs to be
repaired". Generally, "needs Xed" means "needs to be Xed".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Janet
2018-01-10 01:41:28 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 14:27:01 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
Post by LezaWang
Hello
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences
1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?
Which one is more suitable from English point of view?
- They should have created order A
- They need to create order A
which one of the above is correct and make more sense?
Many people use these two verbs interchangeably, i.e. do not
discriminate between them.
The observable difference is that we usually reserve "should" for
sentences about people: so that "should" fits both specimen sentences
here.
Until fairly recently, language scholars scorned as ruralisms such
sentences as "that flat tyre needs repairing" because inanimate objects
cannot by themselves have needs: only their human users can have needs
or be under some obligation. However, this pedantic assessment denies
other people the right to (mis)use the language as they please.
I haven't encoutered such "scorn" and would have no problem with such a
sentence. A regionalism, however, is "that tire needs repaired," which
is typical of the Pittsburgh dialect area (stretching down to northern
West Virginia and up to Erie, so far).
That regionalism is also used in Irish English.
And Scottish.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I interpret "needs repaired" as an abbreviated version of "needs to be
repaired". Generally, "needs Xed" means "needs to be Xed".
In West Scotland I've heard "wants mended", "wants painted".

Janet
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-01-09 23:17:25 UTC
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Post by Don P
Post by LezaWang
Hello
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences
1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?
Which one is more suitable from English point of view?
- They should have created order A
- They need to create order A
which one of the above is correct and make more sense?
Many people use these two verbs interchangeably, i.e. do not
discriminate between them.
The observable difference is that we usually reserve "should" for
sentences about people: so that "should" fits both specimen sentences
here.
Until fairly recently, language scholars scorned as ruralisms such
sentences as "that flat tyre needs repairing" because inanimate objects
cannot by themselves have needs: only their human users can have needs
or be under some obligation. However, this pedantic assessment denies
other people the right to (mis)use the language as they please.
--
You make this stuff up as you go along, don't you? That argument might
work if it was 'wants repairing'* but need is to do with necessity not with
subjective factors so it would be absurd to object to it on such grounds.

* although I certainly have no problem with it
Richard Tobin
2018-01-10 12:16:02 UTC
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Post by Don P
Until fairly recently, language scholars scorned as ruralisms such
sentences as "that flat tyre needs repairing" because inanimate objects
cannot by themselves have needs: only their human users can have needs
or be under some obligation.
Can you name some of these "scholars"?

-- Richard
John Varela
2018-01-10 19:56:13 UTC
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Post by Don P
Post by LezaWang
Hello
I want to know what is the differences between these two sentences
1) ......What order they should create ?
2) ..... What order they need to create ?
Which one is more suitable from English point of view?
- They should have created order A
- They need to create order A
which one of the above is correct and make more sense?
Many people use these two verbs interchangeably, i.e. do not
discriminate between them.
The observable difference is that we usually reserve "should" for
sentences about people: so that "should" fits both specimen sentences
here.
Until fairly recently, language scholars scorned as ruralisms such
sentences as "that flat tyre needs repairing" because inanimate objects
cannot by themselves have needs: only their human users can have needs
or be under some obligation. However, this pedantic assessment denies
other people the right to (mis)use the language as they please.
I had a college roommate* from the Youngstown, Ohio area who told me
that in his area it was common to omit "to be" in certain sentences,
such as:

That tire needs repaired.

That car needs washed.

That plant needs watered.

And indeed, I have heard that usage. Not only that, I kind of like
it and sometimes use it myself, when in the right mood. I can't
recall ever having heard your "needs repairing" version, however.

* Who went on to get a PhD in English from an Ivy and become a
professor at a state university, and was already very aware of idiom
as a freshman.
--
John Varela
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