Discussion:
Get your dander up, or gander up?
(too old to reply)
Dylan Nicholson
2004-02-03 04:56:08 UTC
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Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone mentioned to
me the other that the normal expression is to get your dander up,
whereas I had always heard it as "get your gander up". I did a couple
of searches, and it seems both terms are in use, although the former
is certainly more common.
If you search for both "gander up" and "dander up", you get a lot of
people "correcting" others about using one or the other. It seems
like both are valid variants - otherwise why would they occur so
often.

Hoping I haven't got anyone's [d|g]ander up...

Dylan
Donna Richoux
2004-02-03 09:37:15 UTC
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Post by Dylan Nicholson
Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone mentioned to
me the other that the normal expression is to get your dander up,
whereas I had always heard it as "get your gander up". I did a couple
of searches, and it seems both terms are in use, although the former
is certainly more common.
If you search for both "gander up" and "dander up", you get a lot of
people "correcting" others about using one or the other. It seems
like both are valid variants - otherwise why would they occur so
often.
Hoping I haven't got anyone's [d|g]ander up...
It's "dander." The American Heritage Dictionary has:

dander 1
 
NOUN: Informal Temper or anger: What got their
dander up?
ETYMOLOGY: Perhaps alteration of dunder, fermented
cane juice used in rum-making, fermentation,
possibly alteration of Spanish redundar, to
overflow, from Latin redundre. See redundant.

Which, by the way, AHD thinks is unrelated to:

dander 2
 
NOUN: Scurf from the coat or feathers of various
animals, often of an allergenic nature.
ETYMOLOGY: Alteration of dandruff.

How many other people are saying "gander" instead of "dander"?
Google shows:

"my dander up" 1660
"my gander up" 91 Ratio 18:1

That makes it about as common, relatively speaking, as people spelling
"recieve," "milage," and "suprise." Would you describe those as "valid
variants" because they occur so often?

There is a different expression involving "gander," did you realize? "To
take a gander at" something is to take a look.
--
Best - Donna Richoux
Gary Vellenzer
2004-02-03 13:19:53 UTC
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In article <1g8ksh3.1ffjnealtbvy8N%***@euronet.nl>, ***@euronet.nl
says...
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Dylan Nicholson
Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone mentioned to
me the other that the normal expression is to get your dander up,
whereas I had always heard it as "get your gander up". I did a couple
of searches, and it seems both terms are in use, although the former
is certainly more common.
If you search for both "gander up" and "dander up", you get a lot of
people "correcting" others about using one or the other. It seems
like both are valid variants - otherwise why would they occur so
often.
Hoping I haven't got anyone's [d|g]ander up...
dander 1
 
NOUN: Informal Temper or anger: What got their
dander up?
ETYMOLOGY: Perhaps alteration of dunder, fermented
cane juice used in rum-making, fermentation,
possibly alteration of Spanish redundar, to
overflow, from Latin redundre. See redundant.
dander 2
 
NOUN: Scurf from the coat or feathers of various
animals, often of an allergenic nature.
ETYMOLOGY: Alteration of dandruff.
How many other people are saying "gander" instead of "dander"?
"my dander up" 1660
"my gander up" 91 Ratio 18:1
That makes it about as common, relatively speaking, as people spelling
"recieve," "milage," and "suprise." Would you describe those as "valid
variants" because they occur so often?
There is a different expression involving "gander," did you realize? "To
take a gander at" something is to take a look.
Hey, if you have a gander, and you can get it up....

Gary
Peter Moylan
2004-02-04 01:51:47 UTC
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Post by Gary Vellenzer
Hey, if you have a gander, and you can get it up....
One of the Billy Connolly repeats is running here at the moment.
His comments on muffin' the mule were well worth hearing.
--
Peter Moylan ***@newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
John Dean
2004-02-03 15:01:37 UTC
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Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Dylan Nicholson
Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone mentioned to
me the other that the normal expression is to get your dander up,
whereas I had always heard it as "get your gander up".
dander 1
NOUN: Informal Temper or anger: What got their
dander up?
There is a different expression involving "gander," did you realize?
"To take a gander at" something is to take a look.
That's kind of a saucy answer ...
--
John Dean
Oxford
Donna Richoux
2004-02-03 15:47:03 UTC
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Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Dylan Nicholson
Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone mentioned to
me the other that the normal expression is to get your dander up,
whereas I had always heard it as "get your gander up".
dander 1
NOUN: Informal Temper or anger: What got their
dander up?
There is a different expression involving "gander," did you realize?
"To take a gander at" something is to take a look.
That's kind of a saucy answer ...
Famous geese of song and story?

Why doesn't my goose
Sing as well as thy goose,
When I paid for my goose
Twice as much as thine?
John Dean
2004-02-03 20:51:20 UTC
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Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Dylan Nicholson
Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone mentioned
to me the other that the normal expression is to get your dander
up, whereas I had always heard it as "get your gander up".
dander 1
NOUN: Informal Temper or anger: What got their
dander up?
There is a different expression involving "gander," did you realize?
"To take a gander at" something is to take a look.
That's kind of a saucy answer ...
Famous geese of song and story?
Why doesn't my goose
Sing as well as thy goose,
When I paid for my goose
Twice as much as thine?
Goosey Goosey Gander
Whither shall I wander ....
--
John Dean
Oxford
Jitze Couperus
2004-02-03 21:25:50 UTC
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On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:51:20 -0000, "John Dean"
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
Why doesn't my goose
Sing as well as thy goose,
When I paid for my goose
Twice as much as thine?
Goosey Goosey Gander
Whither shall I wander ....
I'm so glad you didn't quote the whole thing - the bit about
"into my lady's chamber" is clearly a not-so-veiled reference
to what happens when your gander err, ahem, ...

(Neo-deconstuctivists have pointed out that gander is a euphemistic
reference to the beak or pecker which can also be gotten up)

I understand out Federal Communications Commission is contemplating
fining a number of TV stations for playing such nursery rhymes on
family-oriented programs. National Geographic is also under fire for
publishing a picture of the top half of nekkid female member of the
Onga-Bonga tribe.

Jitze
Mickwick
2004-02-03 21:43:05 UTC
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Post by Jitze Couperus
I understand out Federal Communications Commission is contemplating
fining a number of TV stations for playing such nursery rhymes on
family-oriented programs. National Geographic is also under fire for
publishing a picture of the top half of nekkid female member of the
Onga-Bonga tribe.
Bong-Bongo tribe, shirley?

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba59/feat1.shtml

That's the only reference I have been able to find to the existence of a
real Bongo[o]-Bongo Land. The Bongos undoubtedly exist (in Sudan). But
Bong[o]-Bongos? I smell mischief.

Dr Lurve?
--
Mickwick
Evan Kirshenbaum
2004-02-03 22:44:06 UTC
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Post by Mickwick
Post by Jitze Couperus
I understand out Federal Communications Commission is contemplating
fining a number of TV stations for playing such nursery rhymes on
family-oriented programs. National Geographic is also under fire
for publishing a picture of the top half of nekkid female member of
the Onga-Bonga tribe.
Bong-Bongo tribe, shirley?
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba59/feat1.shtml
That's the only reference I have been able to find to the existence of
a real Bongo[o]-Bongo Land. The Bongos undoubtedly exist (in
Sudan). But Bong[o]-Bongos? I smell mischief.
Well, there's Rongorongo, but that's an undeciphered script used
(presumably) to write the Rapanui language on Easter Island.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |...as a mobile phone is analogous
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to a Q-Tip -- yeah, it's something
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you stick in your ear, but there
|all resemblance ends.
***@hpl.hp.com | Ross Howard
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Ben Zimmer
2004-02-04 04:28:06 UTC
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Post by Mickwick
Post by Jitze Couperus
I understand out Federal Communications Commission is contemplating
fining a number of TV stations for playing such nursery rhymes on
family-oriented programs. National Geographic is also under fire for
publishing a picture of the top half of nekkid female member of the
Onga-Bonga tribe.
Bong-Bongo tribe, shirley?
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba59/feat1.shtml
That's the only reference I have been able to find to the existence of a
real Bongo[o]-Bongo Land. The Bongos undoubtedly exist (in Sudan). But
Bong[o]-Bongos? I smell mischief.
It does seem odd, considering that in contemporary cultural anthropology
"Bongo-Bongo" invariably represents a purely fictitious (presumably
African) tribe. Often it's given as a sort of ironic metacommentary,
critiquing anthropologists who come up with obscure counterexamples to
posited cultural universals. The earliest usage I find on the JSTOR
database of scholarly journals is from 1962:

Review of _Femmes d'Afrique Noire_ by Denise Paulme
Robert F. Murphy
American Anthropologist 64:5 (Oct. 1962), pp. 1075-1077.
[Women's] status contains within in its own compensatory
features, and if the male anthropologist cannot see this
in his hearth, how can he detect it among the Bongo-Bongo?

A better known example is from Mary Douglas (1970):

_Natural Symbols: Explorations in Cosmology_
By Mary Douglas. Barrie & Rockliff, 1970.
It serves to counter the effects of Bongo-Bongoism, the
trap of all anthropological discussion. Hitherto when a
generalization is tentatively advanced, it is rejected out
of court by any fieldworkers who can say: 'This is all
very well, but it doesn't apply to the Bongo-Bongo.'
(text available on Amazon: <http://tinyurl.com/2qt6l>)

Last time "Bongo-Bongo (Land)" came up here, it was in the context of
Tory minister Alan Clark's notorious usage [1]. I suggested in that
thread a possible connection to the song "Civilization (Bongo, Bongo,
Bongo)", recorded by the Andrews Sisters with Danny Kaye in 1947
("Bongo, bongo, bongo, I don't wanna leave the Congo..."). This in turn
was perhaps inspired by a song called "Bongo on the Congo", lyrics by
P.G. Wodehouse and music by Jerome Kern, which appeared in the 1924
musical "Sitting Pretty" [2].

I think Wodehouse might have been responsible for inventing the mythical
Bongo-Bongo, but not in the musical number (though I haven't found the
lyrics for it yet). In two short stories that first appeared in 1932
("The Story of Webster" and "Cats Will be Cats" aka "The Bishop's
Folly"), Wodehouse introduces a character named Theodore who accepts
"the vacant Bishopric of Bongo-Bongo, in West Africa." I could imagine
British social anthropologists reading Wodehouse and then applying
"Bongo-Bongo" (ironically, of course) to their own discipline.

[1] http://groups.google.com/groups?th=17e7c8fc4d782ea2
[2] http://wodehouse.ru/musical.htm
[3] http://wodehouse.ru/49.htm
http://tinyurl.com/2frbt ("The Story of Webster" on Amazon)
Jitze Couperus
2004-02-04 07:53:34 UTC
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... The Bongos undoubtedly exist (in Sudan). But
The tribe would then be known as the Wabongo... there is an
eponymously named location in the Central African Republic, see

http://www.calle.com/world/CT/0/Wabongo.html

The lyrics of the song that I recall (popular as a local ditty around
the time of Congo's independance) went:

OH! A-bingo bango bongo
I don't want to leave the Congo
I refuse to go...

Jitze
Mickwick
2004-02-04 13:22:42 UTC
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Post by Jitze Couperus
... The Bongos undoubtedly exist (in Sudan). But
The tribe would then be known as the Wabongo... there is an
eponymously named location in the Central African Republic, see
http://www.calle.com/world/CT/0/Wabongo.html
(Useful site. Thanks.)

Although the Bongos migrated through what became the CAR in about 1600,

http://www.tribalarts.com/feature/bongo/map.html

the various CAR and Congolese Bongos* seem to be unrelated to the
present-day Sudanese Bongos.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/ethno/Suda.html

BONGO (BUNGU, DOR) [BOT] 5,000 to 10,000 (1987 SIL). A large
sparsely populated area reaching from Tonj and Wau on the north,
the Beli on the east, the Zande on the south, and the Bor on the
west. Nilo-Saharan, Central Sudanic, West, Bongo-Bagirmi,
Bongo-Baka, Bongo. [...] Many students drop out of school
because they cannot understand the language being used.
Different from Bongo which is a dialect or closely related
language to Banda of CAR and Zaïre. Typology: SVO. Hunters.
Traditional religion, Muslim, Christian. Survey needed.

I looked into all this in some depth a couple of weeks ago because I was
so surprised at having found what appeared to be a genuine reference to
a Bong-Bongo tribe. Like Ben, I quickly found that anthropologists
aren't afraid to use Bongo-Bongo as a generic tribal name but the
article in _British Archaeology_ referred to alleged encounters between
white explorers and a genuine tribe of cannibals called the Bong-Bongo.

Well now, I looked up those explorers and, while it's true that they did
encounter the Bongo people of Sudan, as far as I can tell they neither
called them the Bong-Bongo nor alleged that they were cannibals. (That
was their neighbours the Azande aka Niam-Niam aka all sorts of things.)
That's why I suspected the writer of mischief.

But I've just looked at the article again and the writer is not, as I
had thought, an anthropologist: he is an archaeologist. So perhaps it
was just a passing reference to subject matter that he wasn't very
familiar with.

Incidentally, for those who like old maps, here's a beauty (large file):

www.kenyalogy.com/eng/mapake/afc1895.html

And does anyone know where I might find a larger version of this map of
African tribes/languages?

Loading Image...
Post by Jitze Couperus
The lyrics of the song that I recall (popular as a local ditty around
OH! A-bingo bango bongo
I don't want to leave the Congo
I refuse to go...
Left unsnipped for Professor Laura's benefit.


*In the CAR, in addition to the (slavers' Swahili?) Wabongo, there are
three settlements called Bongo and a Massif des Bongos. In the D. R.
Congo there are at least eight settlements called Bongo (plus two called
Bongbalangbongo) and a Bongo Island. A Bongo dialect of the Banda
language is spoken in parts of both the CAR and the D.
R. Congo.
--
Mickwick
Ben Zimmer
2004-02-04 17:37:06 UTC
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Post by Mickwick
I looked into all this in some depth a couple of weeks ago because I was
so surprised at having found what appeared to be a genuine reference to
a Bong-Bongo tribe. Like Ben, I quickly found that anthropologists
aren't afraid to use Bongo-Bongo as a generic tribal name but the
article in _British Archaeology_ referred to alleged encounters between
white explorers and a genuine tribe of cannibals called the Bong-Bongo.
Well now, I looked up those explorers and, while it's true that they did
encounter the Bongo people of Sudan, as far as I can tell they neither
called them the Bong-Bongo nor alleged that they were cannibals. (That
was their neighbours the Azande aka Niam-Niam aka all sorts of things.)
That's why I suspected the writer of mischief.
But I've just looked at the article again and the writer is not, as I
had thought, an anthropologist: he is an archaeologist. So perhaps it
was just a passing reference to subject matter that he wasn't very
familiar with.
Looking at that article again, I see the writer also mentions the Fang,
who reside in present-day Gabon, Cameroon, and Equatorial Guinea.
There's a so-called 'Pygmy' group in Gabon called the Babongo:
<http://www.unesco-pygmee.org/res/jk/intro.php>. Perhaps that was the
source of the confusion-- were the Babongo ever called cannibals?
Mickwick
2004-02-06 21:30:01 UTC
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Post by Ben Zimmer
Post by Mickwick
But I've just looked at the article again and the writer is not, as I
had thought, an anthropologist: he is an archaeologist. So perhaps it
was just a passing reference to subject matter that he wasn't very
familiar with.
Looking at that article again, I see the writer also mentions the Fang,
who reside in present-day Gabon, Cameroon, and Equatorial Guinea.
<http://www.unesco-pygmee.org/res/jk/intro.php>. Perhaps that was the
source of the confusion-- were the Babongo ever called cannibals?
I don't know.

I'm fairly sure that the Fang mention refers to Du Chaillu. I assumed
that it was Schweinfurth who encountered these alleged Bong-Bongos,
mostly because he wrote a lot about the Sudanese Bongos. But given the
ubiquity of places and peoples called Bongo or Something-Bongo in the
region, Du Chaillu (or even both of them) could have encountered these
alleged Bong-Bongos, and Bong-Bongo could well be an archaic version of
Babango.

Or, frankly, Bongbalangbongo. Who can say?

I still think it was some sort of error by the writer of the article.
Your suggestions about P. G. Wodehouse etc. ring truer. It could be that
Schweinfurth was indeed the alleged Bong-Bongo man and Bong-Bongo was a
typo or thinko for (or an older European version of?) Bongo-Bagirmi or
Bongo-Baka, which are sub-groups (or perhaps super-groups) of the
Sudanese Bongos.

An expert needs to pronounce on this.
--
Mickwick
Steve Hayes
2004-02-09 03:56:21 UTC
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Post by Mickwick
I looked into all this in some depth a couple of weeks ago because I was
so surprised at having found what appeared to be a genuine reference to
a Bong-Bongo tribe. Like Ben, I quickly found that anthropologists
aren't afraid to use Bongo-Bongo as a generic tribal name but the
article in _British Archaeology_ referred to alleged encounters between
white explorers and a genuine tribe of cannibals called the Bong-Bongo.
Well now, I looked up those explorers and, while it's true that they did
encounter the Bongo people of Sudan, as far as I can tell they neither
called them the Bong-Bongo nor alleged that they were cannibals. (That
was their neighbours the Azande aka Niam-Niam aka all sorts of things.)
That's why I suspected the writer of mischief.
I found that interesting, as for the last 5 years or so I have only seen
"Bongo" used as an offensive racial insult. If "niggardly" is the gnat,
"Bongo" is the camel.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Raymond S. Wise
2004-02-09 04:49:26 UTC
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On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:37:06 -0500, Ben Zimmer
Post by Mickwick
I looked into all this in some depth a couple of weeks ago because I was
so surprised at having found what appeared to be a genuine reference to
a Bong-Bongo tribe. Like Ben, I quickly found that anthropologists
aren't afraid to use Bongo-Bongo as a generic tribal name but the
article in _British Archaeology_ referred to alleged encounters between
white explorers and a genuine tribe of cannibals called the Bong-Bongo.
Well now, I looked up those explorers and, while it's true that they did
encounter the Bongo people of Sudan, as far as I can tell they neither
called them the Bong-Bongo nor alleged that they were cannibals. (That
was their neighbours the Azande aka Niam-Niam aka all sorts of things.)
That's why I suspected the writer of mischief.
I found that interesting, as for the last 5 years or so I have only seen
"Bongo" used as an offensive racial insult. If "niggardly" is the gnat,
"Bongo" is the camel.
You are evidently not a fan of Matt Groening's *Life in Hell* panel
cartoons, the books containing collections of that cartoon, and Bongo
Comics, comics which feature Groening's *The Simpsons.* One of the main
characters in *Life in Hell* is Bongo, the one-eared rabbit son of Binky and
Hulga.

"Niggardly" is hardly a gnat: People almost got fired for using it and two
major American dictionaries caution against its use due to its similarity in
sound to "nigger." Whether the word "Bongo" where you live comes anywhere
close to the offensiveness of the word "nigger" where I live, I cannot say:
I have never heard "Bongo" used as an ethnic slur by anyone, whether
American or not. The assessment you give in your last line above is
definitely not true for American English.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Ben Zimmer
2004-02-09 07:34:02 UTC
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Post by Raymond S. Wise
Post by Steve Hayes
I found that interesting, as for the last 5 years or so I have only seen
"Bongo" used as an offensive racial insult. If "niggardly" is the gnat,
"Bongo" is the camel.
"Niggardly" is hardly a gnat: People almost got fired for using it and two
major American dictionaries caution against its use due to its similarity in
sound to "nigger." Whether the word "Bongo" where you live comes anywhere
I have never heard "Bongo" used as an ethnic slur by anyone, whether
American or not. The assessment you give in your last line above is
definitely not true for American English.
I assume Steve meant not just "Bongo" but "Bongo-Bongo (Land)". That
expression has landed at least two Tory MPs in trouble, as I reported in
our last thread on the topic:

---------------------
The Observer
December 17, 2000

'Bongo Bongo' MP faces race inquiry

A senior Tory is to be investigated by the Commission for Racial
Equality over an alleged racist outburst in the House of Commons. The
comments about 'Bongo Bongo land', a reference to Africa, were made by
senior right-winger David Maclean at the end of last month in a debate
discussing the modernisation of Parliament.
The former Home Office minister described Westminster Hall, the Commons'
secondary chamber, as 'the Bongo Bongo parish council room above the
policemen's caff'. He suggested the hall, recently adapted for minor
debates, was often reminiscent of an African banana republic. His
remarks backfired when a woman listening in the public gallery reported
him to the Commission for Racial Equality.
Maclean's words echo comments made by the late Alan Clark, the former
minister and MP for Kensington and Chelsea, who caused a furore by
describing Africa as 'Bongo Bongo land'.
---------------------

Speaking of elected officials making racial slurs, did anyone notice
that a few days after our "Woodpile" thread, a state senator from
Washington State used that expression? He's still fighting off calls
for his resignation...

http://groups.google.com/groups?th=1efe8b6928df663a
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/159099_apology03.html
Steve Hayes
2004-02-10 04:53:14 UTC
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Post by Ben Zimmer
Post by Raymond S. Wise
Post by Steve Hayes
I found that interesting, as for the last 5 years or so I have only seen
"Bongo" used as an offensive racial insult. If "niggardly" is the gnat,
"Bongo" is the camel.
"Niggardly" is hardly a gnat: People almost got fired for using it and two
major American dictionaries caution against its use due to its similarity in
sound to "nigger." Whether the word "Bongo" where you live comes anywhere
I have never heard "Bongo" used as an ethnic slur by anyone, whether
American or not. The assessment you give in your last line above is
definitely not true for American English.
I assume Steve meant not just "Bongo" but "Bongo-Bongo (Land)". That
expression has landed at least two Tory MPs in trouble, as I reported in
No, I meant "bongo", though your example is a (very mild) illustration of the
kind of thing I was referring to.

Those who are into the Deja-Google kind of stuff could possibly come up with
some examples by searching for "bongo", "DAFNz" and "Bwana" in the subject
line, and "byker" or "makemyday" or "mastic" in the "from" line.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
2004-02-10 04:53:10 UTC
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On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:49:26 -0600, "Raymond S. Wise"
Post by Raymond S. Wise
Post by Steve Hayes
I found that interesting, as for the last 5 years or so I have only seen
"Bongo" used as an offensive racial insult. If "niggardly" is the gnat,
"Bongo" is the camel.
You are evidently not a fan of Matt Groening's *Life in Hell* panel
cartoons, the books containing collections of that cartoon, and Bongo
Comics, comics which feature Groening's *The Simpsons.* One of the main
characters in *Life in Hell* is Bongo, the one-eared rabbit son of Binky and
Hulga.
I've never heard of any of those.

What I have seen with increasing frequency in Usenet of late is the use of
"Bongo" by white racists, usually by white racists in the USA, to denote a
stereotype of black Africans as stupider and less evolved than whites.
Post by Raymond S. Wise
"Niggardly" is hardly a gnat: People almost got fired for using it and two
major American dictionaries caution against its use due to its similarity in
sound to "nigger." Whether the word "Bongo" where you live comes anywhere
I have never heard "Bongo" used as an ethnic slur by anyone, whether
American or not. The assessment you give in your last line above is
definitely not true for American English.
I've never *seen* "niggardly" used as an ethnic slur. I take your word for it
that such a thing has happened, but I have not seen it myself.

Until this thread, over the last 3-4 years I've seen "bongo" used *only* as an
ethnic slur. It seems to be used by Americans who intend others to understand
it as such -- it clearly has some meaning in American culture that those who
use it appear to expect to be widely understood (like "surrender monkeys",
perhaps).

I don't have samples to show you, because I don't usually download the bodies
of messages that have "bongo" in the header, because the content is usually a
racist diatribe from some ignorant redneck. That's why I came late to this
thread.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Frances Kemmish
2004-02-04 18:42:29 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Mickwick
But I've just looked at the article again and the writer is not, as I
had thought, an anthropologist: he is an archaeologist. So perhaps it
was just a passing reference to subject matter that he wasn't very
familiar with.
Was the archaeologist an American? If so, he would probably have been
trained first as an anthropologist; there, archaeology is regarded as a
subdiscipline of anthropology. Archaeologists in the UK are not
necessarily trained in anthropology or weren't in my youth, anyway. I'm
sure that it's all different now.
--
Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com
Mickwick
2004-02-06 21:29:08 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Frances Kemmish
Was the archaeologist an American? If so, he would probably have been
trained first as an anthropologist; there, archaeology is regarded as a
subdiscipline of anthropology. Archaeologists in the UK are not
necessarily trained in anthropology or weren't in my youth, anyway. I'm
sure that it's all different now.
He's a Brit, I think.
--
Mickwick
r***@shaw.ca
2004-02-04 14:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jitze Couperus
I refuse to go...
Time Warner's punishment for publication of gangsta stuff continues in
the ridicule which must certainly shower on AOL's attempts to get some
of its Super Bowl advertising money back. That particular fallout
from the Jacksonian fiasco (or ripoff) reminded me that bongo drums
are of unequal size and to suspect, given the Jacksonian family
fondness for attribute tinkering (and tinkering's inherent
uncertainty), that it may have been essential for one bongo to remain
draped.

Be that as it may, I do hope that Mr Couperus will forgive me for
dangling on a mere fragment of his quotation.
Mickwick
2004-02-06 21:30:43 UTC
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Raw Message
(and tinkering's inherent uncertainty),
A rare moment of empathy with the vagrant underclass there, Clarence.
Keep that up and they'll admit you to the Committee.
--
Mickwick
Maria Conlon
2004-02-06 21:44:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mickwick
(and tinkering's inherent uncertainty),
A rare moment of empathy with the vagrant underclass there, Clarence.
Keep that up and they'll admit you to the Committee.
That was Clarence?
--
Maria Conlon
Mickwick
2004-02-06 21:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by Mickwick
A rare moment of empathy with the vagrant underclass there, Clarence.
Keep that up and they'll admit you to the Committee.
That was Clarence?
I think so. Who else writes like that?
--
Mickwick
Laura F Spira
2004-02-06 22:10:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mickwick
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by Mickwick
A rare moment of empathy with the vagrant underclass there, Clarence.
Keep that up and they'll admit you to the Committee.
That was Clarence?
I think so. Who else writes like that?
I do hope you're right. What a welcome return! a1a, may I introduce you
to DE781...
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Charles Riggs
2004-02-07 10:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:10:35 +0000, Laura F Spira
Post by Laura F Spira
Post by Mickwick
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by Mickwick
A rare moment of empathy with the vagrant underclass there, Clarence.
Keep that up and they'll admit you to the Committee.
That was Clarence?
I think so. Who else writes like that?
I do hope you're right.
What a welcome return! a1a, may I introduce you
to DE781...
YJ is hardly in his league. Why'd you think they'd want to meet up?
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
R J Valentine
2004-02-07 03:57:53 UTC
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Raw Message
On 4 Feb 2004 06:28:49 -0800 ***@shaw.ca wrote:

} ***@znet.eschew-spam.com (Jitze Couperus) wrote
}
}> I refuse to go...
}
} Time Warner's punishment for publication of gangsta stuff continues in
} the ridicule which must certainly shower on AOL's attempts to get some
} of its Super Bowl advertising money back. That particular fallout
} from the Jacksonian fiasco (or ripoff) reminded me that bongo drums
} are of unequal size and to suspect, given the Jacksonian family
} fondness for attribute tinkering (and tinkering's inherent
} uncertainty), that it may have been essential for one bongo to remain
} draped.
}
} Be that as it may, I do hope that Mr Couperus will forgive me for
} dangling on a mere fragment of his quotation.

Where is Prof. Fontana, and what have you done to him?
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:***@wicked.smart.net>
Dena Jo
2004-02-08 03:42:42 UTC
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Post by R J Valentine
Where is Prof. Fontana, and what have you done to him?
No, really. Where *is* RF? Can anyone confirm that he's okay?
--
Dena Jo

Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email.
Pat Durkin
2004-02-08 19:49:01 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Dena Jo
Post by R J Valentine
Where is Prof. Fontana, and what have you done to him?
No, really. Where *is* RF? Can anyone confirm that he's okay?
Not a confirmation, but a "wondering, too", note. (OK, blame me for an AOL
infection.)
A week or so ago for Areff and for rzed. I have finally seen a post from
rzed, but thus far nothing from Areff.
R J Valentine
2004-02-09 02:23:32 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:49:01 -0600 Pat Durkin <***@nothome.com> wrote:

} "Dena Jo" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
} news:***@130.133.1.17...
}> On 06 Feb 2004, R J Valentine posted thus:
}>
}> > Where is Prof. Fontana, and what have you done to him?
}>
}> No, really. Where *is* RF? Can anyone confirm that he's okay?
}
}
} Not a confirmation, but a "wondering, too", note. (OK, blame me for an AOL
} infection.)
} A week or so ago for Areff and for rzed. I have finally seen a post from
} rzed, but thus far nothing from Areff.

If he were in a proper huff, he would have quit in it all proper. My
guess is that he's in Orlando for the week, tricking people into riding
Mission Space.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:***@wicked.smart.net>
Charles Riggs
2004-02-09 06:32:05 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Pat Durkin
Post by Dena Jo
Post by R J Valentine
Where is Prof. Fontana, and what have you done to him?
No, really. Where *is* RF? Can anyone confirm that he's okay?
Not a confirmation, but a "wondering, too", note. (OK, blame me for an AOL
infection.)
A week or so ago for Areff and for rzed. I have finally seen a post from
rzed, but thus far nothing from Areff.
A concern for specific members should not, in my view, be labeled an
AOLism. No-one here, hardly, doesn't care what is happening with
Richard, I'd think.

A somewhat similar sentiment expressed by, say, 'God Bless all AUEers'
might rightfully be labeled an AOLism, along, of course, with most
'Thanks very much!'s and isolated 'Me too's. Trite abbreviations,
words in all caps, and any word followed by an exclamation point are
always suspect. 'Thanks to everyone who responded!', needless to say,
has no place in a serious newsgroup. We, not the newbies, don't
ass-kiss here: information, not gooey sentiment, should be our
watchword.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Raymond S. Wise
2004-02-09 09:34:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Riggs
Post by Pat Durkin
Post by Dena Jo
Post by R J Valentine
Where is Prof. Fontana, and what have you done to him?
No, really. Where *is* RF? Can anyone confirm that he's okay?
Not a confirmation, but a "wondering, too", note. (OK, blame me for an AOL
infection.)
A week or so ago for Areff and for rzed. I have finally seen a post from
rzed, but thus far nothing from Areff.
A concern for specific members should not, in my view, be labeled an
AOLism. No-one here, hardly, doesn't care what is happening with
Richard, I'd think.
A somewhat similar sentiment expressed by, say, 'God Bless all AUEers'
might rightfully be labeled an AOLism, along, of course, with most
'Thanks very much!'s and isolated 'Me too's. Trite abbreviations,
words in all caps, and any word followed by an exclamation point are
always suspect. 'Thanks to everyone who responded!', needless to say,
has no place in a serious newsgroup. We, not the newbies, don't
ass-kiss here: information, not gooey sentiment, should be our
watchword.
I don't usually answer "Thanks!" or "Thanks to everyone who responded!"
However, I have learned that in the newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise
such thanks are the rule. On the principle "When in Rome..." I have to
remember to thank a poster for having given the answer to a question I was
asking.

On the same principle, we could advise someone new to this group to avoid
posting such a response.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Charles Riggs
2004-02-09 15:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 03:34:50 -0600, "Raymond S. Wise"
Post by Raymond S. Wise
Post by Charles Riggs
Post by Pat Durkin
Post by Dena Jo
Post by R J Valentine
Where is Prof. Fontana, and what have you done to him?
No, really. Where *is* RF? Can anyone confirm that he's okay?
Not a confirmation, but a "wondering, too", note. (OK, blame me for an
AOL
Post by Charles Riggs
Post by Pat Durkin
infection.)
A week or so ago for Areff and for rzed. I have finally seen a post from
rzed, but thus far nothing from Areff.
A concern for specific members should not, in my view, be labeled an
AOLism. No-one here, hardly, doesn't care what is happening with
Richard, I'd think.
A somewhat similar sentiment expressed by, say, 'God Bless all AUEers'
might rightfully be labeled an AOLism, along, of course, with most
'Thanks very much!'s and isolated 'Me too's. Trite abbreviations,
words in all caps, and any word followed by an exclamation point are
always suspect. 'Thanks to everyone who responded!', needless to say,
has no place in a serious newsgroup. We, not the newbies, don't
ass-kiss here: information, not gooey sentiment, should be our
watchword.
I don't usually answer "Thanks!" or "Thanks to everyone who responded!"
RRs don't, as a rule. Newbies and ESL students here are fond of the
practice, I've noticed.
Post by Raymond S. Wise
However, I have learned that in the newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise
such thanks are the rule. On the principle "When in Rome..." I have to
remember to thank a poster for having given the answer to a question I was
asking.
See you there, Raymond, once my French is better. I look in at times,
but have only posted there once.
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On the same principle, we could advise someone new to this group to avoid
posting such a response.
That was my intent.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Simon R. Hughes
2004-02-09 16:48:26 UTC
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Post by Charles Riggs
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 03:34:50 -0600, "Raymond S. Wise"
Post by Raymond S. Wise
I don't usually answer "Thanks!" or "Thanks to everyone who responded!"
If I've asked for information, I will thank those who have
furnished it.
Post by Charles Riggs
RRs don't, as a rule. Newbies and ESL students here are fond of the
practice, I've noticed.
I'm an RR; Roger Bannister enjoys my posts.

In future, I may say "thanks to everyone who responded, and
bollocks to you, Charles".
--
Simon R. Hughes
Charles Riggs
2004-02-10 09:28:21 UTC
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Raw Message
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:48:26 +0100, "Simon R. Hughes"
Post by Simon R. Hughes
Post by Charles Riggs
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 03:34:50 -0600, "Raymond S. Wise"
Post by Raymond S. Wise
I don't usually answer "Thanks!" or "Thanks to everyone who responded!"
If I've asked for information, I will thank those who have
furnished it.
That is pure silliness, and in fact almost no-one here does it
routinely. One new RR does, of course: her being DenaJay. Thank
goodness we don't all do it or they'd be almost thousands more posts
to plough through, all the _Thank you_ notes being in the time-wasting
category. When someone goes to exceptional effort just for you alone,
a sincere 'Thank you' is most definitely in order; as the Miss Manners
of AUE I'd be first to acknowledge that.
Post by Simon R. Hughes
Post by Charles Riggs
RRs don't, as a rule. Newbies and ESL students here are fond of the
practice, I've noticed.
I'm an RR; Roger Bannister enjoys my posts.
Who's doubting it?
Post by Simon R. Hughes
In future, I may say "thanks to everyone who responded, and
bollocks to you, Charles".
You're still angry with me because I called you for trying to wipe out
someone's hard drive. It is time to move on to newer things. I'm
greatly enjoying _The Waves_ by Virginia Woolf, although I find my
progress through it very slow. She says so very much in almost every
line that a lot of pondering is required. I'm continually amazed how
the words of a dead lesbian by my bedside can tell me things about
myself I only half-realized. How's she do it? Then there's the writing
itself: poetry of the highest order.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Simon R. Hughes
2004-02-10 12:07:50 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Charles Riggs
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:48:26 +0100, "Simon R. Hughes"
Post by Simon R. Hughes
If I've asked for information, I will thank those who have
furnished it.
That is pure silliness,
No, that is politeness, a requirement of English social
intercourse. Perhaps things are different where you come from,
but I doubt it. The Americans I have had the pleasure of knowing
have been among the politest people I have come across.
Post by Charles Riggs
and in fact almost no-one here does it
routinely.
I think you exaggerate.
Post by Charles Riggs
One new RR does, of course: her being DenaJay. Thank
goodness we don't all do it or they'd be almost thousands more posts
to plough through, all the _Thank you_ notes being in the time-wasting
category. When someone goes to exceptional effort just for you alone,
a sincere 'Thank you' is most definitely in order; as the Miss Manners
of AUE I'd be first to acknowledge that.
Post by Simon R. Hughes
Post by Charles Riggs
RRs don't, as a rule. Newbies and ESL students here are fond of the
practice, I've noticed.
I'm an RR; Roger Bannister enjoys my posts.
Who's doubting it?
Me.
Post by Charles Riggs
Post by Simon R. Hughes
In future, I may say "thanks to everyone who responded, and
bollocks to you, Charles".
You're still angry with me because I called you for trying to wipe out
someone's hard drive. It is time to move on to newer things. I'm
greatly enjoying _The Waves_ by Virginia Woolf, although I find my
progress through it very slow. She says so very much in almost every
line that a lot of pondering is required. I'm continually amazed how
the words of a dead lesbian by my bedside can tell me things about
myself I only half-realized. How's she do it? Then there's the writing
itself: poetry of the highest order.
I know you won't believe this, but I haven't been angry with you
about that. A little bemused, admittedly, but nothing like
approaching anger. You have your opinion about what I wrote; I
have mine. You are entitled to whine about your opinion; I am
entitled to ignore your whining.

Concerning Virginia Woolf, she is my favourite modernist, bar
none.

But, if I were you, I'd get rid of the dead lesbian by my
bedside; she'll begin to smell quite soon.
--
Simon R. Hughes
Robert Bannister
2004-02-10 23:45:41 UTC
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Post by Charles Riggs
I'm
greatly enjoying _The Waves_ by Virginia Woolf, although I find my
progress through it very slow. She says so very much in almost every
line that a lot of pondering is required. I'm continually amazed how
the words of a dead lesbian by my bedside can tell me things about
myself I only half-realized. How's she do it? Then there's the writing
itself: poetry of the highest order.
While we're on book recommendations, I recommend "Coalescents" by
Stephen Baxter. Not poetry, but an entertaining mixture of SF and a
little fantasy and history. Towards the end, a form of society is
suggested that is highly reminiscent of AUE.
--
Rob Bannister
John Holmes
2004-02-10 11:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Simon R. Hughes
I'm an RR; Roger Bannister enjoys my posts.
I wonder if he's ever read one of Eric Walker's in under four minutes.
--
Regards
John
Jerry Friedman
2004-02-10 20:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Holmes
Post by Simon R. Hughes
I'm an RR; Roger Bannister enjoys my posts.
I wonder if he's ever read one of Eric Walker's in under four minutes.
That was a wry 'un! With a kick at the end.
--
Jerry Friedman
Javi
2004-02-09 16:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:49:01 -0600, "Pat Durkin"
Post by Pat Durkin
Post by Dena Jo
Post by R J Valentine
Where is Prof. Fontana, and what have you done to him?
No, really. Where *is* RF? Can anyone confirm that he's okay?
Not a confirmation, but a "wondering, too", note. (OK, blame me
for an AOL infection.)
A week or so ago for Areff and for rzed. I have finally seen a
post from rzed, but thus far nothing from Areff.
A concern for specific members should not, in my view, be labeled an
AOLism. No-one here, hardly, doesn't care what is happening with
Richard, I'd think.
A somewhat similar sentiment expressed by, say, 'God Bless all
AUEers' might rightfully be labeled an AOLism, along, of course,
with most 'Thanks very much!'s and isolated 'Me too's. Trite
abbreviations, words in all caps, and any word followed by an
exclamation point are always suspect. 'Thanks to everyone who
responded!', needless to say, has no place in a serious newsgroup.
We, not the newbies, don't ass-kiss here: information, not gooey
sentiment, should be our watchword.
I don't usually answer "Thanks!" or "Thanks to everyone who
responded!" However, I have learned that in the newsgroup
fr.lettres.langue.anglaise such thanks are the rule. On the principle
"When in Rome..." I have to remember to thank a poster for having
given the answer to a question I was asking.
It seems to be a cultural difference. I am a bit French on that matter. I
most times answer something like "thanks" when a poster gives the answer to
a question I was asking, although, having been here in AUE for sometime, I
refrain a little, now. Some people think that it is better done by e-mail,
but I understand that a newbie would not e-mail an RR.
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On the same principle,
What *same* principle?
Post by Raymond S. Wise
we could advise someone new to this group to
avoid posting such a response.
I do not think that advice necessary. Let's people express themselves as
they feel more comfortable.

--
Saludos
Javi
"A well regulated circus being necessary to the amusement of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and arm bears shall not be infringed."
Dena Jo
2004-02-09 17:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Javi
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On the same principle,
What *same* principle?
Post by Raymond S. Wise
we could advise someone new to this group to
avoid posting such a response.
I do not think that advice necessary. Let's people express
themselves as they feel more comfortable.
This discussion is mind-boggling to me. It's bizarre that some people
are asking other people to be less than they are. If I've asked people
for help or information and hey provide it, I'm going to thank them.
Period, end of story. If someone finds clicking past my thank yous too
burdensome, they're welcome to kill-file me.
--
Dena Jo

Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email.
Ross Howard
2004-02-09 17:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 9 Feb 2004 17:17:35 GMT, Dena Jo
Post by Dena Jo
Post by Javi
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On the same principle,
What *same* principle?
Post by Raymond S. Wise
we could advise someone new to this group to
avoid posting such a response.
I do not think that advice necessary. Let's people express
themselves as they feel more comfortable.
This discussion is mind-boggling to me. It's bizarre that some people
are asking other people to be less than they are. If I've asked people
for help or information and hey provide it, I'm going to thank them.
Period, end of story. If someone finds clicking past my thank yous too
burdensome, they're welcome to kill-file me.
It's your week in the Dog House. (Last week it was Fran's.) Enjoy it
while it lasts.

--
Ross Howard
Dena Jo
2004-02-09 17:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross Howard
It's your week in the Dog House.
I'm a cat person. I'd rather be in a cathouse.




That didn't come out right.
--
Dena Jo

Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email.
Charles Riggs
2004-02-10 09:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 9 Feb 2004 17:42:38 GMT, Dena Jo
Post by Dena Jo
Post by Ross Howard
It's your week in the Dog House.
I'm a cat person. I'd rather be in a cathouse.
That didn't come out right.
Near the right State but of the wrong sex, you are. I'll be in France
soon where cats and cathouses abound -- nah, nah nah, nah nah, guys
and girls.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Charles Riggs
2004-02-10 09:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross Howard
On 9 Feb 2004 17:17:35 GMT, Dena Jo
Post by Dena Jo
Post by Javi
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On the same principle,
What *same* principle?
Post by Raymond S. Wise
we could advise someone new to this group to
avoid posting such a response.
I do not think that advice necessary. Let's people express
themselves as they feel more comfortable.
This discussion is mind-boggling to me. It's bizarre that some people
are asking other people to be less than they are. If I've asked people
for help or information and hey provide it, I'm going to thank them.
Period, end of story. If someone finds clicking past my thank yous too
burdensome, they're welcome to kill-file me.
It's your week in the Dog House. (Last week it was Fran's.) Enjoy it
while it lasts.
Excuse me, Ross, but that isn't accurate. I recognize you were being
cute, and two stars for that, but I've always been in Fran's doghouse
and, knowing that, I keep a similar residence for her. Dena is not in
my 'dog house'. Knowing her far better than I know, or would ever want
to know, that old shrew Fran, the situation is unrelated. I *listen*
to Dena Jo, my former master; I ignore, or try to, Frances.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Raymond S. Wise
2004-02-09 17:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dena Jo
Post by Javi
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On the same principle,
What *same* principle?
Post by Raymond S. Wise
we could advise someone new to this group to
avoid posting such a response.
I do not think that advice necessary. Let's people express
themselves as they feel more comfortable.
This discussion is mind-boggling to me. It's bizarre that some people
are asking other people to be less than they are. If I've asked people
for help or information and hey provide it, I'm going to thank them.
Period, end of story. If someone finds clicking past my thank yous too
burdensome, they're welcome to kill-file me.
As I said to Javi in a previous post, it is a question of etiquette.
Kill-filing is an option, but it is too extreme for such an offense. It's
better to try to persuade the offender to change his behavior.

You say "It's bizarre that some people are asking other people to be less
than they are." What if a person has been using capitalization to show
emphasis all his life? When he comes to this group, he's going to annoy a
lot of people, especially if he capitalizes whole sentences. If he knew how
much he was annoying people, I expect he would modify his behavior.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Dena Jo
2004-02-09 18:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Raymond S. Wise
You say "It's bizarre that some people are asking other people to
be less than they are." What if a person has been using
capitalization to show emphasis all his life? When he comes to
this group, he's going to annoy a lot of people, especially if he
capitalizes whole sentences. If he knew how much he was annoying
people, I expect he would modify his behavior.
Because there's a difference between capitalizing words -- shouting in
Cyberspace, which is completely form -- and being polite, which to me
is *not* merely form. To me, it's substantive. It's character.

A sort-of analogy: When I take on a new scoping client, I will
punctuate the first transcript using the rules of punctuation that I
subscribe too. You can well imagine what they are, knowing me for the
prescriptivist that I tend to be. Occasionally, a court reporter will
want me to intentionally and routinely punctuate incorrectly. Well,
it's her transcript. It's got her name on the front, not mine. She's
completely within her rights to punctuate it anyway she pleases. And
she's paying me to edit it. But I won't do it. What I explain to her
is that I have other clients as well, and I can't allow myself to get
out of the habit of seeing certain things as wrong because then I'll
stop seeing them as wrong when I'm editing someone's else transcript.
I then gently suggest that she should find another scopist who
punctuates more to her liking.

That's how I feel about being polite. If I get out of the habit of
being polite in one forum, I'll forget to be polite in other forums,
and it's a habit I don't want to break.

And with that, I will say nothing further on this subject, to you or
anyone else.

Thank you for your feedback, Raymond!

(Okay, so I'm feeling bitchy. Sue me.)
--
Dena Jo

Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email.
Charles Riggs
2004-02-10 09:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 9 Feb 2004 17:17:35 GMT, Dena Jo
Post by Dena Jo
Post by Javi
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On the same principle,
What *same* principle?
Post by Raymond S. Wise
we could advise someone new to this group to
avoid posting such a response.
I do not think that advice necessary. Let's people express
themselves as they feel more comfortable.
This discussion is mind-boggling to me. It's bizarre that some people
are asking other people to be less than they are.
I'm asking that you *be* who you are, not less than who you are. I
know you well, don't forget. I'm asking you show us your true sides,
not the superficial, insubstantial side. That'd make you *more* than
you now appear to be, not less. Is that too bizarre a thing to ask?
Post by Dena Jo
If I've asked people
for help or information and hey provide it, I'm going to thank them.
Period, end of story. If someone finds clicking past my thank yous too
burdensome, they're welcome to kill-file me.
Why not email the person, if you can't resist, or is that not
attention-getting enough for you? We're here to help and to provide
information. When someone does, it is nothing exceptional. You tend to
thank people when they provide the *group* with information. Think for
a moment what would happen if all of us did that. The group would have
300-some one-liner 'Thank you's for every substantive post. Your
proposal would ruin a group that is has already slid away from its
Golden Era, as Padraig calls it. I want to reverse the slide, that's
all; so did Padraig until he gave up in frustration. How many other
old RRs have done exactly the same? Dena can't know, but others of us
can guess.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Raymond S. Wise
2004-02-09 17:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Javi
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:49:01 -0600, "Pat Durkin"
Post by Pat Durkin
Post by Dena Jo
Post by R J Valentine
Where is Prof. Fontana, and what have you done to him?
No, really. Where *is* RF? Can anyone confirm that he's okay?
Not a confirmation, but a "wondering, too", note. (OK, blame me
for an AOL infection.)
A week or so ago for Areff and for rzed. I have finally seen a
post from rzed, but thus far nothing from Areff.
A concern for specific members should not, in my view, be labeled an
AOLism. No-one here, hardly, doesn't care what is happening with
Richard, I'd think.
A somewhat similar sentiment expressed by, say, 'God Bless all
AUEers' might rightfully be labeled an AOLism, along, of course,
with most 'Thanks very much!'s and isolated 'Me too's. Trite
abbreviations, words in all caps, and any word followed by an
exclamation point are always suspect. 'Thanks to everyone who
responded!', needless to say, has no place in a serious newsgroup.
We, not the newbies, don't ass-kiss here: information, not gooey
sentiment, should be our watchword.
I don't usually answer "Thanks!" or "Thanks to everyone who
responded!" However, I have learned that in the newsgroup
fr.lettres.langue.anglaise such thanks are the rule. On the principle
"When in Rome..." I have to remember to thank a poster for having
given the answer to a question I was asking.
It seems to be a cultural difference. I am a bit French on that matter. I
most times answer something like "thanks" when a poster gives the answer to
a question I was asking, although, having been here in AUE for sometime, I
refrain a little, now. Some people think that it is better done by e-mail,
but I understand that a newbie would not e-mail an RR.
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On the same principle,
What *same* principle?
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do," mentioned above.
Post by Javi
Post by Raymond S. Wise
we could advise someone new to this group to
avoid posting such a response.
I do not think that advice necessary. Let's people express themselves as
they feel more comfortable.
I disagree. It's a question of etiquette. In the French-language group, I
follow their rules of etiquette, in this group I follow our rules of
etiquette. "When in Rome...."
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Javi
2004-02-09 18:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Raymond S. Wise
Post by Javi
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:49:01 -0600, "Pat Durkin"
Post by Pat Durkin
Post by Dena Jo
Post by R J Valentine
Where is Prof. Fontana, and what have you done to him?
No, really. Where *is* RF? Can anyone confirm that he's okay?
Not a confirmation, but a "wondering, too", note. (OK, blame me
for an AOL infection.)
A week or so ago for Areff and for rzed. I have finally seen a
post from rzed, but thus far nothing from Areff.
A concern for specific members should not, in my view, be labeled
an AOLism. No-one here, hardly, doesn't care what is happening with
Richard, I'd think.
A somewhat similar sentiment expressed by, say, 'God Bless all
AUEers' might rightfully be labeled an AOLism, along, of course,
with most 'Thanks very much!'s and isolated 'Me too's. Trite
abbreviations, words in all caps, and any word followed by an
exclamation point are always suspect. 'Thanks to everyone who
responded!', needless to say, has no place in a serious newsgroup.
We, not the newbies, don't ass-kiss here: information, not gooey
sentiment, should be our watchword.
I don't usually answer "Thanks!" or "Thanks to everyone who
responded!" However, I have learned that in the newsgroup
fr.lettres.langue.anglaise such thanks are the rule. On the
principle "When in Rome..." I have to remember to thank a poster
for having given the answer to a question I was asking.
It seems to be a cultural difference. I am a bit French on that
matter. I most times answer something like "thanks" when a poster
gives the answer to a question I was asking, although, having been
here in AUE for sometime, I refrain a little, now. Some people think
that it is better done by e-mail, but I understand that a newbie
would not e-mail an RR.
Post by Raymond S. Wise
On the same principle,
What *same* principle?
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do," mentioned above.
A saying or proverb is not a principle, in my opinion.
Post by Raymond S. Wise
Post by Javi
Post by Raymond S. Wise
we could advise someone new to this group to
avoid posting such a response.
I do not think that advice necessary. Let's people express
themselves as they feel more comfortable.
I disagree. It's a question of etiquette. In the French-language
group, I follow their rules of etiquette, in this group I follow our
rules of etiquette. "When in Rome...."
I disagree. This group comprises a wider range of cultures than the French,
and I like that way. It is better to exceed in politeness than to default.

--
Saludos
Javi

Mood conjugation:

I enjoy a drop
You never say no
He is an alcoholic

(Craig Brown)
Raymond S. Wise
2004-02-09 19:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[...]
Post by Javi
Post by Raymond S. Wise
I disagree. It's a question of etiquette. In the French-language
group, I follow their rules of etiquette, in this group I follow our
rules of etiquette. "When in Rome...."
I disagree. This group comprises a wider range of cultures than the French,
and I like that way. It is better to exceed in politeness than to default.
To reply to both you and Dena Jo, I'd like to point out that not following
the rules of etiquette in force is *failing* in politeness, not following
it.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Robert Bannister
2004-02-10 00:00:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Raymond S. Wise
I disagree. It's a question of etiquette. In the French-language group, I
follow their rules of etiquette, in this group I follow our rules of
etiquette. "When in Rome...."
Which raises the question: Since when has the etiquette of this
newsgroup proscribed thank yous?
--
Rob Bannister
Charles Riggs
2004-02-10 09:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:00:24 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Raymond S. Wise
I disagree. It's a question of etiquette. In the French-language group, I
follow their rules of etiquette, in this group I follow our rules of
etiquette. "When in Rome...."
Which raises the question: Since when has the etiquette of this
newsgroup proscribed thank yous?
Rationality dictates it, demands it, in general. Consider what would
happen, as I pointed out to Dena, if everyone here thanked each poster
for each piece of information the member provided. For every
substantive post, there'd by 300-some one-liners. Those not doing the
thanking being considered *most impolite*, oh horrors. Is that the
change in AUE content you, Javi, and Dena advocate? If so, hello
chatroom, `cept even worse.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Jerry Friedman
2004-02-10 19:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Riggs
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:00:24 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Raymond S. Wise
I disagree. It's a question of etiquette. In the French-language group, I
follow their rules of etiquette, in this group I follow our rules of
etiquette. "When in Rome...."
Which raises the question: Since when has the etiquette of this
newsgroup proscribed thank yous?
Rationality dictates it, demands it, in general. Consider what would
happen, as I pointed out to Dena, if everyone here thanked each poster
for each piece of information the member provided. For every
substantive post, there'd by 300-some one-liners. Those not doing the
thanking being considered *most impolite*, oh horrors. Is that the
change in AUE content you, Javi, and Dena advocate? If so, hello
chatroom, `cept even worse.
A straw man--I don't think anyone has suggested that everyone here
thank each poster for each piece of information. What I do is thank
people, usually once per thread, for doing me a favor that I
requested, usually providing information. I may say other things as
well, so such posts aren't always one-liners. So far no one has told
me I was violating some rule of etiquette. In fact, I'd say I was
following a rule of decent behavior that is far more widespread among
human beings than any rule of etiquette. (Or I was violating it, when
I didn't thank the people who helped me.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Simon R. Hughes
2004-02-09 10:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Riggs
'Thanks to everyone who responded!', needless to say,
has no place in a serious newsgroup.
Bollocks!
--
Simon R. Hughes
Charles Riggs
2004-02-09 15:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:20:57 +0100, "Simon R. Hughes"
Post by Simon R. Hughes
Post by Charles Riggs
'Thanks to everyone who responded!', needless to say,
has no place in a serious newsgroup.
Bollocks!
Yes, 'Bollocks!' is both normal and acceptable. One is generally on
safe ground to attach it to the end of any of C**per's posts, for
example.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Steve Hayes
2004-02-04 20:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jitze Couperus
... The Bongos undoubtedly exist (in Sudan). But
The tribe would then be known as the Wabongo... there is an
eponymously named location in the Central African Republic, see
http://www.calle.com/world/CT/0/Wabongo.html
The lyrics of the song that I recall (popular as a local ditty around
OH! A-bingo bango bongo
I don't want to leave the Congo
I refuse to go...
Actually about 10 years before.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Donna Richoux
2004-02-03 23:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Dylan Nicholson
Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone mentioned
to me the other that the normal expression is to get your dander
up, whereas I had always heard it as "get your gander up".
dander 1
NOUN: Informal Temper or anger: What got their
dander up?
There is a different expression involving "gander," did you realize?
"To take a gander at" something is to take a look.
That's kind of a saucy answer ...
Famous geese of song and story?
Why doesn't my goose
Sing as well as thy goose,
When I paid for my goose
Twice as much as thine?
Goosey Goosey Gander
Whither shall I wander ....
Identify: Spruce Goose, Goosey Loosey, and Gander AFB.

Maybe this will be easier for you than it would be for me: On which
traditional holiday was it customary to eat a goose?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
John Dean
2004-02-04 01:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Dylan Nicholson
Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone
mentioned to me the other that the normal expression is to get
your dander up, whereas I had always heard it as "get your
gander up".
dander 1
NOUN: Informal Temper or anger: What got their
dander up?
There is a different expression involving "gander," did you
realize? "To take a gander at" something is to take a look.
That's kind of a saucy answer ...
Famous geese of song and story?
Why doesn't my goose
Sing as well as thy goose,
When I paid for my goose
Twice as much as thine?
Goosey Goosey Gander
Whither shall I wander ....
Identify: Spruce Goose, Goosey Loosey, and Gander AFB.
Maybe this will be easier for you than it would be for me: On which
traditional holiday was it customary to eat a goose?
And, writing on one side of the paper only, explain why waygoose is correct
and wayzgoose isn't.
--
John 'No wonder Tiny Time cried ...' Dean
Oxford
Donna Richoux
2004-02-04 12:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
Why doesn't my goose
Sing as well as thy goose,
When I paid for my goose
Twice as much as thine?
Goosey Goosey Gander
Whither shall I wander ....
Identify: Spruce Goose, Goosey Loosey, and Gander AFB.
Maybe this will be easier for you than it would be for me: On which
traditional holiday was it customary to eat a goose?
And, writing on one side of the paper only, explain why waygoose is correct
and wayzgoose isn't.
My goose is cooked, on that one. I barely managed to find out what they
mean (Onelook.com). What's the answer?

I know that "Canadian goose" is wrong.

Retreating into simple verse:

Christmas is comin' and the geese are gettin' fat
Please to put a penny in the old man's hat.
If you haven't got a penny, then a ha'penny will do,
If you haven't got a ha'penny, God bless you.

That may be the only use of "ha'penny" known in the States.

Then there's the story of the Goose Girl, and why she found herself
tending geese.

A flock of domestic geese wanders along the neighboring canal. They are
the stupidest birds. If you offer them something to eat, they spend
*all* their energy trying to chase the other birds away, instead of
eating.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
John Dean
2004-02-04 13:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
Why doesn't my goose
Sing as well as thy goose,
When I paid for my goose
Twice as much as thine?
Goosey Goosey Gander
Whither shall I wander ....
Identify: Spruce Goose, Goosey Loosey, and Gander AFB.
Maybe this will be easier for you than it would be for me: On which
traditional holiday was it customary to eat a goose?
And, writing on one side of the paper only, explain why waygoose is
correct and wayzgoose isn't.
My goose is cooked, on that one. I barely managed to find out what
they mean (Onelook.com). What's the answer?
Per OED : << The eccentrically spelt form wayzgoose, which, although
established in recent use, has not been found, exc. in Bailey's Dictionary,
earlier than 1875, is prob. a figment invented in the interest of an
etymological conjecture (see quot. 1731). Bailey's assertion that the word
had the sense of ‘stubble-goose’ is unsupported, and is very unlikely; this
allegation, and the accompanying fantastic misspelling of wase, may have
been suggested by the idea that the obscure word waygoose could be explained
on the assumption that it had lost a z. >>
Post by Donna Richoux
Christmas is comin' and the geese are gettin' fat
Please to put a penny in the old man's hat.
If you haven't got a penny, then a ha'penny will do,
If you haven't got a ha'penny, God bless you.
I'm sure you know there's an alternative duosyllabic phrase to replace the
last three words.

I wonder if anyone got goosed doing a goose step?
--
John Dean
Oxford
Donna Richoux
2004-02-04 16:27:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
[snip]
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Christmas is comin' and the geese are gettin' fat
Please to put a penny in the old man's hat.
If you haven't got a penny, then a ha'penny will do,
If you haven't got a ha'penny, God bless you.
I'm sure you know there's an alternative duosyllabic phrase to replace the
last three words.
No, I've only heard this sweet and charitable version. Your suggestion
would certainly remove the attractive element of pity.
Post by John Dean
I wonder if anyone got goosed doing a goose step?
We've done gooseberries, in various meanings. How about ancient
literature? Do you know how the geese saved Rome?

Riddle:
How do you get down from an elephant?
You don't get down from an elephant, silly, you get down from a goose!

(Or a duck. Eider way.)
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
John Dean
2004-02-04 19:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
[snip]
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Christmas is comin' and the geese are gettin' fat
Please to put a penny in the old man's hat.
If you haven't got a penny, then a ha'penny will do,
If you haven't got a ha'penny, God bless you.
I'm sure you know there's an alternative duosyllabic phrase to
replace the last three words.
No, I've only heard this sweet and charitable version. Your suggestion
would certainly remove the attractive element of pity.
Post by John Dean
I wonder if anyone got goosed doing a goose step?
We've done gooseberries, in various meanings. How about ancient
literature? Do you know how the geese saved Rome?
I refer my honourable and learned friend to the reference I made some hours
ago to the Roman Sacred
Geese, Junoesque Battalion.
Post by Donna Richoux
How do you get down from an elephant?
You don't get down from an elephant, silly, you get down from a goose!
(Or a duck. Eider way.)
Why did the goose cross the road? It was chasing the chicken...

"Talk to me, Goose. Talk to me."
--
John Dean
Oxford
Donna Richoux
2004-02-04 19:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
[snip]
We've done gooseberries, in various meanings. How about ancient
literature? Do you know how the geese saved Rome?
I refer my honourable and learned friend to the reference I made some hours
ago to the Roman Sacred
Geese, Junoesque Battalion.
Ah, I didn't make the connection. They weren't so much military geese,
were they, as very useful civilians.

Which goddess is pictured on a goose, in statues? It's not Juno.
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
How do you get down from an elephant?
You don't get down from an elephant, silly, you get down from a goose!
(Or a duck. Eider way.)
Why did the goose cross the road? It was chasing the chicken...
"Talk to me, Goose. Talk to me."
Dr. Greene as a military pilot? OK. The only movie geese I know are in
"Fly Away Home."

Goose Gossage, baseball relief pitcher.

Then there's the famous problem of the fox, the goose, and the sack of
corn.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
R H Draney
2004-02-04 19:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
[snip]
We've done gooseberries, in various meanings. How about ancient
literature? Do you know how the geese saved Rome?
I refer my honourable and learned friend to the reference I made some hours
ago to the Roman Sacred
Geese, Junoesque Battalion.
Ah, I didn't make the connection. They weren't so much military geese,
were they, as very useful civilians.
Which goddess is pictured on a goose, in statues? It's not Juno.
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
How do you get down from an elephant?
You don't get down from an elephant, silly, you get down from a goose!
(Or a duck. Eider way.)
Why did the goose cross the road? It was chasing the chicken...
"Talk to me, Goose. Talk to me."
Dr. Greene as a military pilot? OK. The only movie geese I know are in
"Fly Away Home."
Goose Gossage, baseball relief pitcher.
Then there's the famous problem of the fox, the goose, and the sack of
corn.
Nobody's mentioned the childhood game of "Duck, Duck, Goose" (or as it's
inexplicably known in Wisconsin, "Duck, Duck, Gray Duck")....

But in that one (at least as we played it) both "duck" and "goose" are
verbs....r
Donna Richoux
2004-02-04 20:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R H Draney
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
[snip]
"Talk to me, Goose. Talk to me."
Dr. Greene as a military pilot? OK. The only movie geese I know are in
"Fly Away Home."
Goose Gossage, baseball relief pitcher.
Then there's the famous problem of the fox, the goose, and the sack of
corn.
Nobody's mentioned the childhood game of "Duck, Duck, Goose" (or as it's
inexplicably known in Wisconsin, "Duck, Duck, Gray Duck")....
But in that one (at least as we played it) both "duck" and "goose" are
verbs....r
Cute. I never knew "Duck, Duck, Goose" growing up, but I saw some kids
playing it once, after.

I just remembered:

He grabbed the grey goose by the neck
Threw a duck across his back,
He didn't mind the quack, quack, quack
And the legs all dangling down-o...

Old Mother Flipperflopper jumped out of bed
Threw up the window and stuck out her head,
Crying "John, John, the gray goose is gone,
The fox is on the town-o..."

Not to mention an even better known old gray goose that died in the
millpond, standing on its head. The gander and goslings also get
honorable mentions.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
R H Draney
2004-02-04 20:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Donna Richoux
He grabbed the grey goose by the neck
Threw a duck across his back,
He didn't mind the quack, quack, quack
And the legs all dangling down-o...
I could probably do the entire Smothers Brothers version of this, banter and
all, from memory with no preparation whatsoever:

"That's really clever, yelling 'quack! quack! quack!' in a song about a
fox"....r
Tony Cooper
2004-02-04 23:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R H Draney
Post by Donna Richoux
He grabbed the grey goose by the neck
Threw a duck across his back,
He didn't mind the quack, quack, quack
And the legs all dangling down-o...
I could probably do the entire Smothers Brothers version of this, banter and
"That's really clever, yelling 'quack! quack! quack!' in a song about a
fox"....r
Smothers Brothers? Burl Ives is the voice that comes to my inner ear
on reading this.
R H Draney
2004-02-04 23:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by R H Draney
I could probably do the entire Smothers Brothers version of this, banter and
"That's really clever, yelling 'quack! quack! quack!' in a song about a
fox"....r
Smothers Brothers? Burl Ives is the voice that comes to my inner ear
on reading this.
Mom went to high school with Tommy; we had all their albums in the house when I
was growing up...as a result, years before "A Mighty Wind" I already couldn't
take folk music too seriously....

The "original version" of anything is the first one *you* heard, not the first
one made...I still think of "Twist And Shout" as a Beatles tune, not Isley
Brothers...(apologies to Laura for what must at this point be a very troubling
thread)....r
Skitt
2004-02-05 00:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R H Draney
The "original version" of anything is the first one *you* heard, not
the first one made...I still think of "Twist And Shout" as a Beatles
tune, not Isley Brothers...(apologies to Laura for what must at this
point be a very troubling thread)....r
It wasn't even the Isley Brothers who recorded it first -- it was The
Topnotes.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Laura F Spira
2004-02-05 06:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R H Draney
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by R H Draney
I could probably do the entire Smothers Brothers version of this, banter and
"That's really clever, yelling 'quack! quack! quack!' in a song about a
fox"....r
Smothers Brothers? Burl Ives is the voice that comes to my inner ear
on reading this.
Mom went to high school with Tommy; we had all their albums in the house when I
was growing up...as a result, years before "A Mighty Wind" I already couldn't
take folk music too seriously....
The "original version" of anything is the first one *you* heard, not the first
one made...I still think of "Twist And Shout" as a Beatles tune, not Isley
Brothers...(apologies to Laura for what must at this point be a very troubling
thread)....r
Thanks for your concern - I was coping quite well until I encountered
the Bongo Bongo stuff in another thread but La Mamba will do nicely for
today. I'd like a clear head for tonight, though - we're going to a Joan
Baez concert.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Evan Kirshenbaum
2004-02-09 16:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[I'm reposting the articles I wrote on Thursday, as our server seems
not to have let anything out (and it got nothing new until this
morning). I apologise if you've seen this already, but nobody's
replied, and nothing shows up on Google.]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by R H Draney
Post by Donna Richoux
He grabbed the grey goose by the neck
Threw a duck across his back,
He didn't mind the quack, quack, quack
And the legs all dangling down-o...
I could probably do the entire Smothers Brothers version of this,
"That's really clever, yelling 'quack! quack! quack!' in a song
about a fox"....r
Smothers Brothers? Burl Ives is the voice that comes to my inner ear
on reading this.
The song or the line? The latter is definitely Dickie to Tommy
Smothers, off of _Think Ethnic_ (1963), from the routine that framed
the song.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |I like giving talks to industry,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |because one of the things that I've
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |found is that you really can't
|learn anything at the Harvard
***@hpl.hp.com |Business School.
(650)857-7572 | Clayton Christensen
| Harvard Business School
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
John Dean
2004-02-05 02:00:53 UTC
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Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
[snip]
We've done gooseberries, in various meanings. How about ancient
literature? Do you know how the geese saved Rome?
I refer my honourable and learned friend to the reference I made
some hours ago to the Roman Sacred
Geese, Junoesque Battalion.
Ah, I didn't make the connection. They weren't so much military geese,
were they, as very useful civilians.
Indeed. They prevented their land from being made desolate and a perpetual
hissing.
Post by Donna Richoux
Which goddess is pictured on a goose, in statues? It's not Juno.
Aphrodite? Though it's sometimes a swan.
Loading Image...
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
"Talk to me, Goose. Talk to me."
Dr. Greene as a military pilot? OK. The only movie geese I know are in
"Fly Away Home."
I *love* that movie.
And Thomas More's wife admonishing him : '"Will you sit still by the fire
and make goslings in the ashes with a stick as children do?'
We're not counting 'The Wild Geese'? No. 'The Wild geese II' Emphatically
not.
IMDb points me at 'Those Calloways' (1965), 'Hungarian Women Plucking Geese'
(1898) (yes - eighteen, not a misprint) and various cartoons.
Post by Donna Richoux
Then there's the famous problem of the fox, the goose, and the sack of
corn.
And the traditional game of Fox and Geese. There's an on-line version here :
http://www.student.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~dawolfen/cs130/
(though it doesn't play a very good game)
Same principal as the Tibetan game of Tigers and Goats (of which I have a
very handsome version in beaten brass) and of which there is a v.
entertaining version on-line (flash required) at
http://xavier.bangor.ac.uk/xavier/SWGal/BagaChal/
--
John Dean
Oxford
Donna Richoux
2004-02-05 09:59:28 UTC
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Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
[snip]
Dr. Greene as a military pilot? OK. The only movie geese I know are in
"Fly Away Home."
I *love* that movie.
And Thomas More's wife admonishing him : '"Will you sit still by the fire
and make goslings in the ashes with a stick as children do?'
Oh, that's good.
Post by John Dean
We're not counting 'The Wild Geese'? No. 'The Wild geese II' Emphatically
not.
IMDb points me at 'Those Calloways' (1965), 'Hungarian Women Plucking Geese'
(1898) (yes - eighteen, not a misprint) and various cartoons.
That made me remember Paul Gallico's "The Snow Goose" about Dunkirk,
which was dramatised with Richard Harris.
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Then there's the famous problem of the fox, the goose, and the sack of
corn.
http://www.student.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~dawolfen/cs130/
(though it doesn't play a very good game)
There used to be a constellation with a similar name, says Wikipedia:

In the late 17th century this constellation was
created by the Polish astronomer Johannes Hevelius.
It was originally known as Vulpecula cum ansere: the
Fox and the Goose. The Goose, which was represented
in the jaws of the Fox, is no longer officially in
the sky but reputedly remains in the name of the
alpha star: Anser.

I learned that a group of geese in flight can be called a "skein." I
don't know why that would be the same word as a skein of yarn, but M-W
lists them together. "Gaggle" is onomatopoeia.

The geese flying is a well-known symbol of the changing seasons, but I
can't think if there's a single famous example of that. It's easy to
find things like:

Skeins of flying geese
Paint patterns on prairie ponds
Reflections of fall

Do the Australians have wild geese?

No one has mentioned the most famous goose of all. I'm afraid if we did
so, that would kill this wild goose chase.

(Did I hear pleading from the gallery? But we want to have all the
ansers!)

PS - Here's a pretty "wild geese" quilt pattern:
http://www.quiltindex.com/ATQF/Batiks/Batiks%20-%20DS%20%20wild%20geese.
jpg
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Frances Kemmish
2004-02-05 11:50:01 UTC
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Post by Donna Richoux
That made me remember Paul Gallico's "The Snow Goose" about Dunkirk,
which was dramatised with Richard Harris.
Which reminded me of "The Grey Goose of Arnhem" by Leo Heaps, about
Arnhem, 1944.
--
Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com
Wood Avens
2004-02-05 11:50:53 UTC
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Post by Donna Richoux
The geese flying is a well-known symbol of the changing seasons, but I
can't think if there's a single famous example of that.
I'm reminded of a song I learned as a child, "Tonight I heard the wild
goose cry", which I see upon Googling is attributed to Terry Gilkyson
and was sung by Frankie Laine in 1950 (I'd supposed it was older):
http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thecryofthewildgoose.shtml.

I've always thought of that song against a mental backdrop of the
geese flying south in autumn, but the song doesn't actually say so.
--
Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove number to reply
Wood Avens
2004-02-05 12:50:11 UTC
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On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:50:53 +0000, Wood Avens
Post by Wood Avens
http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thecryofthewildgoose.shtml.
I've always thought of that song against a mental backdrop of the
geese flying south in autumn, but the song doesn't actually say so.
In fact (replying to my own post) the words say "Spring is coming and
the ice will break", so the geese are starting to fly north.
--
Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove number to reply
Scarlotti
2004-02-05 19:34:02 UTC
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Post by Wood Avens
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:50:53 +0000, Wood Avens
Post by Wood Avens
http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thecryofthewildgoose.shtml.
I've always thought of that song against a mental backdrop of the
geese flying south in autumn, but the song doesn't actually say so.
In fact (replying to my own post) the words say "Spring is coming and
the ice will break", so the geese are starting to fly north.
I still tend to think of them flying south, even though I'm very
familiar with the lyrics. One of my early childhood memories is of my
mother quoting from this song when we'd see geese flying south every
autumn.

Back then, I didn't know it was a song -- it just seemed like some
timeless quote (perhaps from some early American poem). I found it
that it was a song when I was in my teens and bought a Frankie Laine
album that included it. It immediately became one of my favorite
songs -- and still is to this day (20-odd years later).

The song opens with them flying north, although the lyrics (posted at
the above link) are a bit off:

My heart knows what the wild goose knows
And I must go where the wild goose goes
Wild goose, brother goose, which is best?
A wanderin' fool or a heart at rest?

*The last line should read: "A wanderin' FOOT or a heart at rest?"

I used to think it said "fool" as well, but I've now got 3 different
versions of the song on cd, and all 3 clearly say "foot." Foot
actually makes more sense poetically, as the metaphoric choice in the
question is between 2 body parts: foot and heart.

I've seen several lyrics sites that erroneously list it as "fool."

Tonight I heard the wild goose cry
Hangin' north in the lonely sky

*This line is actually "WINGIN' north in the lonely sky." Geese don't
hover, after all.

Tried to sleep, it warn't no use
'cause I am a brother to the old wild goose

(Oh, my heart knows what the wild goose knows)
(And I must go where the wild goose goes)
Wild goose, brother goose, which is best?
A wanderin' FOOT or a heart at rest?

Woman was kind and true to me
She thinks she loves me, more fool she!
She's got a LEARN that ain't no use

*Hopefully that was just a typo on the transcriber's part.

To love a brother of the old wild goose

(Oh, my heart knows what the wild goose knows)
(And I must go where the wild goose goes)
Wild goose, brother goose, which is best?
A wanderin' FOOT or a heart at rest?

8(OH, YOU WILD GOOSE!)

The cabin is warm and the snow is deep
And I got a woman who lies asleep
She'll wake up tomorrow's dawn
And find, poor critter, that her man is gone

*There are slight variations on the above, and other, lines in the 3
versions. For example, the original recording runs: "WHEN SHE WAKES
AT tomorrow's dawn/SHE'LL FIND, poor critter, that her man is gone."

(Oh, my heart knows what the wild goose knows)
(And I must go where the wild goose goes)
(Wild goose, brother goose, which is best?)
(A wanderin' fool or a heart at rest?)

Let me fly, let me fly, let me fly away

Spring is comin' and the ice will break
And I can't linger for a woman's sake
She'll see a shadow pass overhead
And she'll find a feather 'side her bed

*There are also several variations on the above line, switching the
ownership of the bed.

(Oh, my heart knows what the wild goose knows)
(And I must go where the wild goose goes)
Wild goose, brother goose, which is best?
A wanderin' fool or a heart at rest?
John Dean
2004-02-05 13:20:28 UTC
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Post by Wood Avens
Post by Donna Richoux
The geese flying is a well-known symbol of the changing seasons, but
I can't think if there's a single famous example of that.
I'm reminded of a song I learned as a child, "Tonight I heard the wild
goose cry", which I see upon Googling is attributed to Terry Gilkyson
http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thecryofthewildgoose.shtml.
I've always thought of that song against a mental backdrop of the
geese flying south in autumn, but the song doesn't actually say so.
Ooh! Ooh! I remember that! [now]. I was always a big Frankie Laine fan.
Even though he sang some weird shit. You know he's still alive, Right? He's
90 and still singing. Surprised? Imagine how Frankie feels
--
John 'and they call the wind Tootsie' Dean
Oxford
Wood Avens
2004-02-05 13:36:56 UTC
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On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:20:28 -0000, "John Dean"
Post by John Dean
Post by Wood Avens
I'm reminded of a song I learned as a child, "Tonight I heard the wild
goose cry", which I see upon Googling is attributed to Terry Gilkyson
http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thecryofthewildgoose.shtml.
Ooh! Ooh! I remember that! [now]. I was always a big Frankie Laine fan.
Even though he sang some weird shit. You know he's still alive, Right? He's
90 and still singing. Surprised? Imagine how Frankie feels
I was never a Frankie Laine fan. I admit to not having realised it
was one of his until I read it via Google earlier this morning. I
learnt it as a child (and it can't have been long after 1950), while
sitting on a log by a campfire in the dark; under those circumstances
it has a high shiver-factor - which for me it retains to this day.
--
Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove number to reply
Tony Cooper
2004-02-05 14:05:05 UTC
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On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:20:28 -0000, "John Dean"
Post by John Dean
Post by Wood Avens
Post by Donna Richoux
The geese flying is a well-known symbol of the changing seasons, but
I can't think if there's a single famous example of that.
I'm reminded of a song I learned as a child, "Tonight I heard the wild
goose cry", which I see upon Googling is attributed to Terry Gilkyson
http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thecryofthewildgoose.shtml.
I've always thought of that song against a mental backdrop of the
geese flying south in autumn, but the song doesn't actually say so.
Ooh! Ooh! I remember that! [now]. I was always a big Frankie Laine fan.
Even though he sang some weird shit. You know he's still alive, Right? He's
90 and still singing. Surprised? Imagine how Frankie feels
I always get Frankie Lane and Vaughn Munroe mixed up. Let's see, that
song was "I must go where the Ghost Riders in the sky go", wasn't it?
John Dean
2004-02-05 15:21:30 UTC
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Post by Wood Avens
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:20:28 -0000, "John Dean"
Post by John Dean
Post by Wood Avens
Post by Donna Richoux
The geese flying is a well-known symbol of the changing seasons,
but I can't think if there's a single famous example of that.
I'm reminded of a song I learned as a child, "Tonight I heard the
wild goose cry", which I see upon Googling is attributed to Terry
Gilkyson and was sung by Frankie Laine in 1950 (I'd supposed it was
http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thecryofthewildgoose.shtml.
I've always thought of that song against a mental backdrop of the
geese flying south in autumn, but the song doesn't actually say so.
Ooh! Ooh! I remember that! [now]. I was always a big Frankie Laine
fan. Even though he sang some weird shit. You know he's still alive,
Right? He's 90 and still singing. Surprised? Imagine how Frankie
feels
I always get Frankie Lane and Vaughn Munroe mixed up. Let's see, that
song was "I must go where the Ghost Riders in the sky go", wasn't it?
You're thinking of:

<< A capital ship for an ocean trip
Was the "Walloping Window-blind"!
No gale that blew dismayed her crew
Or troubled the captain's mind;>>
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robert Lieblich
2004-02-06 01:06:52 UTC
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Tony Cooper wrote:

[ ... ]
Post by Tony Cooper
I always get Frankie Lane and Vaughn Munroe mixed up. Let's see, that
song was "I must go where the Ghost Riders in the sky go", wasn't it?
Right you are, Coop. Dressed in Rawhide and Racing with the Moon.
--
Bob Lieblich
Whose age is showing
Tony Cooper
2004-02-06 01:39:43 UTC
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On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:06:52 -0500, Robert Lieblich
Post by Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
Post by Tony Cooper
I always get Frankie Lane and Vaughn Munroe mixed up. Let's see, that
song was "I must go where the Ghost Riders in the sky go", wasn't it?
Right you are, Coop. Dressed in Rawhide and Racing with the Moon.
No biggie, even a mule can be trained to do it.
Evan Kirshenbaum
2004-02-09 16:26:05 UTC
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[I'm reposting the articles I wrote on Thursday, as our server seems
not to have let anything out (and it got nothing new until this
morning). I apologise if you've seen this already, but nobody's
replied, and nothing shows up on Google.]
Post by Wood Avens
Post by Donna Richoux
The geese flying is a well-known symbol of the changing seasons,
but I can't think if there's a single famous example of that.
I'm reminded of a song I learned as a child, "Tonight I heard the
wild goose cry", which I see upon Googling is attributed to Terry
Gilkyson and was sung by Frankie Laine in 1950 (I'd supposed it was
http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thecryofthewildgoose.shtml.
The Klezmer Conservatory band does a mixed English/Yiddish klezmer
version called "Dos geshrey fun der vilder katshke", which is at least
partly the same song. The lyrics are by Mickey Katz. (That's "duck"
rather than "goose" in Yiddish, although the wild goose is mentioned,
as well).

When this came up in 2000, Aaron posted the lyrics (repeated below).
The second and fourth stanzas are to be thought of as sung by a woman
with a thick Yiddish accent, while the rest is sung by the duck.
(Also with a Yiddish accent, of course.) I suspect that the spelling
is due to Katz.

] Ah! Here it is, in the liner notes to the Klezmer Conservatory
] Band's album "A Jumpin' Night in the Garden of Eden" ("A Freylekhe
] Nakht in Gan-Eydn"), which credit it to someone named Gilkyson:
]
] "Ikh vil geyn vu di katshke geyt,
] Un I wanna drey vi a katshke dreyt.
] Vild goose brekh a fus,
] Geshtopte haldz,
] A maykhl in baykhl
] Un a geln shmaltz.
]
] Yesterday I vent to di butcher shop,
] To buy a chick'n and a couple o' chops.
] De butcher said 'Hey we got katshke today,'
] De katshke hoid him and he gabe a geshrey.
]
] 'I vanna go ver di vild goose goes,
] Cuz I know more than a vild goose knows.
] Mayn kop tsekvetsht,
] Un mayn pipik tsedrikt,
] It von't be long, I'll be opgeflikt!'
]
] De butcher said 'Hey it veighs ten pounds,
] Oh, it's a beautiful katshke, lady,
] A magnificent ganz.
] Six dollars, a metsiye,
] Hey lady, you'll buy it?'
] De katshke cried
] 'Rakhmones, I don't want a levaye!
]
] 'Ikh muz geyn vu di vild goose muz,
] Before der shoyket khopt arop mayn nuz.
] Vild goose, bruder goose,
] Khap a kolatshke,
] Bald I'm gonna lay
] Vi a toyte katshke.
]
] 'Let me fly, let me fly, let me fly avek.
]
] 'Oy s'iz shoyn farfaln, it ain't no use,
] Der butcher er farkeyft mikh,
] Un I'm a cooked goose.
] I got to be brave, oh hear balebatish,
] Goodbye little chickens,
] Don't forget to say Kaddish.
]
] 'I kent go ver di vild goose goes,
] Cuz I must go ver de shoykhet goes.
] I'll be opgezaltst,
] I'll be in a top,
] A make oyfn butcher,
] Zol im shtinken fun kop!'"
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Pious Jews have a category of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |questions that can harmlessly be
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |allowed to go without an answer
|until the Messiah comes. I suspect
***@hpl.hp.com |that this is one of them.
(650)857-7572 | Joseph C. Fineman

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Don Aitken
2004-02-10 17:42:12 UTC
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On 09 Feb 2004 08:26:05 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
[I'm reposting the articles I wrote on Thursday, as our server seems
not to have let anything out (and it got nothing new until this
morning). I apologise if you've seen this already, but nobody's
replied, and nothing shows up on Google.]
The originals arrived here two hours after the reposts. Bizarre.
--
Don Aitken

Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".
Jerry Friedman
2004-02-05 21:32:43 UTC
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Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
"Love likes a gander, and adores a goose."
--Theodore Roethke, "I Knew a Woman".

The "grey goose flock" (Irish mercenaries).

"Goose" Tatum and "Geese" Ausbie, notable Harlem Globetrotters.
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
[snip]
Dr. Greene as a military pilot? OK. The only movie geese I know are in
"Fly Away Home."
I *love* that movie.
...

I thought _Winged Migration_ was way better, and even less fake
(except the macaw).
Post by Donna Richoux
That made me remember Paul Gallico's "The Snow Goose" about Dunkirk,
which was dramatised with Richard Harris.
...

I need not explain why titles like this are so disappointing to us
birdwatchers. Cf. _The Falcon and the Snowman_, _Where Eagles Dare_,
_The Wild Duck_, etc.
Post by Donna Richoux
The geese flying is a well-known symbol of the changing seasons, but I
can't think if there's a single famous example of that.
...

_Autumn in the Han Palace_, by Ma Zhiyuan (Wade-Giles "Chih-Yuan"). I
remember really liking the scene with the flying geese when I read
this play in translation many years ago. Recommended.
Post by Donna Richoux
Do the Australians have wild geese?
...

The Cape Barren Goose and the aberrant Magpie Goose.
<http://www.birdsaustralia.com.au/hanzab/HANZAB_list_june03.pdf> also
lists the Green Pygmy-goose and the Cotton Pygmy-goose, but since they
come after the shelducks, they may not be real geese, whatever that
means.
--
Jerry Friedman
Donna Richoux
2004-02-05 22:37:47 UTC
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..
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
[snip]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Donna Richoux
That made me remember Paul Gallico's "The Snow Goose" about Dunkirk,
which was dramatised with Richard Harris.
...
I need not explain why titles like this are so disappointing to us
birdwatchers. Cf. _The Falcon and the Snowman_, _Where Eagles Dare_,
_The Wild Duck_, etc.
Oh, there really was a snow goose in the book. I shouldn't have made it
sound like it was entirely about Dunkirk, but that does play a role,
too. A girl brings the wounded bird to the lonely lighthouse-keeper for
care. Near the end he sails off in his little boat to help ferry the
evacuated soldiers.

Apparently a rock group made this into a musical in the 70s.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Mickwick
2004-02-06 21:15:38 UTC
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Post by Donna Richoux
Apparently a rock group made this into a musical in the 70s.
Camel, I think. I saw them play it at the Reading Festival at sunset.
Very pleasant, I thought, but the crowd threw beer cans. They wanted to
see Todd Rundgren.
--
Mickwick
Donna Richoux
2004-02-06 00:32:19 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
[snip]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Donna Richoux
The geese flying is a well-known symbol of the changing seasons, but I
can't think if there's a single famous example of that.
...
_Autumn in the Han Palace_, by Ma Zhiyuan (Wade-Giles "Chih-Yuan"). I
remember really liking the scene with the flying geese when I read
this play in translation many years ago. Recommended.
I found this summary:

"Autumn in the Palace of the Han" by Ma chih-yuan
 
Summary:  Written in the late 1200s under the Yuan
dynasty of the Mongols, the story is set during the
early 1200s when the Han rulers face the more
powerful Khan and his forces.  Manipulated by an
evil and ambitious courtier Mao Yen-Shou, the Han
Emperor, after losing his heart to the beautiful
Wang Chao-chun, is forced to yield her to the Khan
as the price for peace. After a sad farewell, the
lady drowns herself in the Amur River rather than
joining the Khan in the north; a solitary wild goose
representing her soul melodically haunts her empty
chambers. The Khan, now aware of  the evil Mao
Yen-Shou's plotting, in a peace offering sends the
Emperor the news of Chao-chun's death, along with
Mao Yen-shou in chains for execution.

And then I found the text of the entire play at
http://www.blackmask.com/books77c/hangkoon.htm

That translation doesn't specificy a goose, though, just a "wild fowl."
From the last act:

Emperor. We just saw the Princess returned - but alas,
how quickly has she vanished! In bright day she
answered not to our call - but when morning dawned on
our troubled sleep, a vision presented her in this
spot. [Hears the wild fowl's cry.] Hark, the passing
fowl screamed twice or thrice! - Can it know there is
no one so desolate as I? [Cries repeated.] Perhaps
worn out and weak, hungry and emaciated, they bewail
at once the broad nets of the South and the tough
bows of the North. [Cries repeated.] The screams of
those water-birds but increase our melancholy.

Attendant. Let your Majesty cease this sorrow, and
have some regard to your sacred person.

Emperor. My sorrows are beyond control. Cease to
upbraid this excess of feeling, since ye are all
subject to the same. Yon doleful cry is not the note
of the swallow on the carved rafters, nor the song
of the variegated bird upon the blossoming tree. The
princess has abandoned her home! Know ye in what
place she grieves, listening like me to the screams
of the wild bird?

Enter President.

President. This day after the close of the morning
council, a foreign envoy appeared, bringing with him
the fettered traitor Maouyenshow. He announces that
the renegade, by deserting his allegiance, led to
the breach of truce, and occasioned all these
calamities. The princess is no more! and the Khan
wishes for peace and friendship between the two
nations. The envoy attends, with reverence, your
imperial decision.

Emperor. Then strike off the traitor's head, and be
it presented as an offering to the shade of the
princess! Let a fit banquet be got ready for the
envoy, preparatory to his return. [ Recites these
verses:

At the fall of the leaf, when the wild fowl's cry
was heard in the recesses of the palace,
Sad dreams returned to our lonely pillow; we thought
of her through the night:
Her verdant tomb remains - but where shall we seek
herself?
The perfidious painter's head shall atone for the
beauty which he wronged.

THE END
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
John Holmes
2004-02-06 08:05:46 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
The Cape Barren Goose and the aberrant Magpie Goose.
<http://www.birdsaustralia.com.au/hanzab/HANZAB_list_june03.pdf> also
lists the Green Pygmy-goose and the Cotton Pygmy-goose, but since they
come after the shelducks, they may not be real geese, whatever that
means.
Yes, the pygmy geese (genus Nettapus) are generally regarded as ducks.
The larger Australian Wood Duck also looks rather goose-like.

--
Regards
John
Peter Moylan
2004-02-05 23:24:00 UTC
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Post by Donna Richoux
Do the Australians have wild geese?
Probably not. Certainly not in my part of the country. Our
Christmas goose was usually a chook, occasionally a duck.

I do get to watch the nightly flying fox migration, because my
house is right under their flight path. In damp weather they fly
high, but on hot summer nights they're almost at rooftop level.
A few years ago we had a tree that was popular with the flying
foxes. All night you could lie in bed listening to the steady
"thump, thump, thump" as they missed the tree and hit the house.
Apparently their sonar isn't as accurate as is generally supposed.
--
Peter Moylan ***@newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
John Holmes
2004-02-06 11:35:01 UTC
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Post by Donna Richoux
Do the Australians have wild geese?
That depends on how you view the taxonomy. There are birds called the
Magpie Goose and the Cape Barren Goose; the former is in a Family of its
own separate from other geese, ducks and swans, whilst the latter is
closer to true geese and may be related to the South American Kelp
Goose. They are not mass-migratory like the northern hemisphere geese,
though Magpie Geese do tend to move around a bit following where rains
have been in the wet season.

Tens of thousands of years ago there was a giant flightless canivorous
goose, part of the extinct megafauna.

Very rarely, the occasional Canada Goose has been seen in this region, a
long way off course.

--
Regards
John
Peter Moylan
2004-02-04 01:58:33 UTC
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Post by John Dean
Post by Donna Richoux
Famous geese of song and story?
Why doesn't my goose
Sing as well as thy goose,
When I paid for my goose
Twice as much as thine?
Goosey Goosey Gander
Whither shall I wander ....
Old Mother Goose, when she wanted to wander
Would fly through the air on a very fine gander.

That makes two old rhymes where "wander" and "gander" rhyme with
each other. Which, if either, was pronounced the modern way?

In any case, it's clear that Old M.G. preferred to be on top.
--
Peter Moylan ***@newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
Matti Lamprhey
2004-02-03 10:20:15 UTC
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Post by Dylan Nicholson
Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone mentioned to
me the other that the normal expression is to get your dander up,
whereas I had always heard it as "get your gander up". I did a couple
of searches, and it seems both terms are in use, although the former
is certainly more common.
If you search for both "gander up" and "dander up", you get a lot of
people "correcting" others about using one or the other. It seems
like both are valid variants - otherwise why would they occur so
often.
Hoping I haven't got anyone's [d|g]ander up...
The original saying was "Get your gandoura up", a reference to the way
that an Algerian would hitch up his robe (the _gandoura_) before
squaring up for a figurative or actual fight with someone. When taken
over to America in the 19thC this was soon domesticated to the more
familiar word "gander", of course. In the 20thC, however, people began
to worry that there may be an undesirably phallic reference in the word,
and so they euphemized it to "dander".

Hope this helps,

Matti
John Dean
2004-02-03 15:20:52 UTC
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Post by Matti Lamprhey
Post by Dylan Nicholson
Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone mentioned to
me the other that the normal expression is to get your dander up,
whereas I had always heard it as "get your gander up". I did a
couple of searches, and it seems both terms are in use, although the
former is certainly more common.
If you search for both "gander up" and "dander up", you get a lot of
people "correcting" others about using one or the other. It seems
like both are valid variants - otherwise why would they occur so
often.
Hoping I haven't got anyone's [d|g]ander up...
The original saying was "Get your gandoura up", a reference to the way
that an Algerian would hitch up his robe (the _gandoura_) before
squaring up for a figurative or actual fight with someone. When taken
over to America in the 19thC this was soon domesticated to the more
familiar word "gander", of course. In the 20thC, however, people
began to worry that there may be an undesirably phallic reference in
the word, and so they euphemized it to "dander".
I thought it was 'get your gandy dancing'?
You realise some people spell it 'ghander' and some 'gandher'?
But, hey, anyone who gets my gander up can recruit him for the Roman Sacred
Geese, Junoesque Battalion, anytime.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Adrian Bailey
2004-02-03 17:45:59 UTC
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Post by John Dean
Post by Matti Lamprhey
The original saying was "Get your gandoura up", a reference to the way
that an Algerian would hitch up his robe (the _gandoura_) before
squaring up for a figurative or actual fight with someone. When taken
over to America in the 19thC this was soon domesticated to the more
familiar word "gander", of course. In the 20thC, however, people
began to worry that there may be an undesirably phallic reference in
the word, and so they euphemized it to "dander".
I thought it was 'get your gandy dancing'?
You realise some people spell it 'ghander' and some 'gandher'?
But, hey, anyone who gets my gander up can recruit him for the Roman Sacred
Geese, Junoesque Battalion, anytime.
I was told it originated as "to get yod and eruv".

Adrian
b***@attglobal.net
2004-02-03 23:51:05 UTC
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Post by Matti Lamprhey
Post by Dylan Nicholson
Surprised this hasn't been asked here before, as someone mentioned to
me the other that the normal expression is to get your dander up,
whereas I had always heard it as "get your gander up". I did a couple
of searches, and it seems both terms are in use, although the former
is certainly more common.
If you search for both "gander up" and "dander up", you get a lot of
people "correcting" others about using one or the other. It seems
like both are valid variants - otherwise why would they occur so
often.
Hoping I haven't got anyone's [d|g]ander up...
The original saying was "Get your gandoura up", a reference to the way
that an Algerian would hitch up his robe (the _gandoura_) before
squaring up for a figurative or actual fight with someone. When taken
over to America in the 19thC this was soon domesticated to the more
familiar word "gander", of course. In the 20thC, however, people began
to worry that there may be an undesirably phallic reference in the word,
and so they euphemized it to "dander".
Hope this helps,
Matti
Dander up/Dander Down

Here is an example from Tom Sawyer (Twain, 1876), ch 1:

Aunt Polly:

He 'pears to know just how
long he can torment me before I get my dander up, and he knows if he
can make out to put me off for a minute or make me laugh, it's all down
again and I can't hit him a lick.

Jim
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