Discussion:
Something for Arthur
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Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-12-02 13:54:24 UTC
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On Language Log there is a discussion of the following text:

Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.

No one seems to know what language it is or what it means. However,
someone suggested that it might be a Turkish form of Armenian written
in the Roman alphabet. Does that make any sense?
--
athel
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
2017-12-02 14:03:09 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
No one seems to know what language it is or what it means. However, someone suggested that it might be a Turkish form of Armenian written in the Roman alphabet. Does that make any sense?
This has kept me up all last nite just wondering. I wondered as I pondered...
LOL
Richard Yates
2017-12-02 14:07:48 UTC
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On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:54:24 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
Google Translate "detects" the language as Bulgarian, but cannot
translate any of the words except "eliut" as "elite".
Richard Heathfield
2017-12-02 14:38:04 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:54:24 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
Google Translate "detects" the language as Bulgarian, but cannot
translate any of the words except "eliut" as "elite".
One word? Even I can do better than that.

"You can't carpet cult curlers,
I got me a gun from a chap, a Knight of the Leg;
Ought you to page high tea with a pie for the King
Aslan on a popular but expensive carpet."

Sheesh, Google Translate! It's not *difficult*!
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Young
2017-12-02 17:22:54 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Richard Yates
On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:54:24 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
Google Translate "detects" the language as Bulgarian, but cannot
translate any of the words except "eliut" as "elite".
One word? Even I can do better than that.
"You can't carpet cult curlers,
I got me a gun from a chap, a Knight of the Leg;
Ought you to page high tea with a pie for the King
Aslan on a popular but expensive carpet."
Nothing about the postilion being struck by lightning?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Jerry Friedman
2017-12-02 18:19:57 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
No one seems to know what language it is or what it means. However,
someone suggested that it might be a Turkish form of Armenian written in
the Roman alphabet.
Presumably because "Karapet" is an Armenian given name, and maybe for
better reasons.

In looking that up, I found that a variant of it is Garabed, which has
the nickname Garo. This brought on a moment of nostalgia that Americans
who were football fans in the '70s may share.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Does that make any sense?
I hope Navi remembers that he uses Arthur in his e-mail address.
--
Jerry Friedman
arminoacid
2017-12-02 19:09:36 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
No one seems to know what language it is or what it means. However,
someone suggested that it might be a Turkish form of Armenian written
in the Roman alphabet.
Presumably because "Karapet" is an Armenian given name, and maybe for
better reasons.
In looking that up, I found that a variant of it is Garabed, which has
the nickname Garo. 
This reminds me of a French racist ditty. (At one time there were a lot
of refugee Armenians in France, hence the put-down rhyme.)

"Tous les noms arméniens se termines en 'an'
(âne),
sauf Garabet, qui se termine en 'bet' (bête)
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Does that make any sense?
I hope Navi remembers that he uses Arthur in his e-mail address.
Good point. Wonder why?
arminoacid
2017-12-02 19:12:41 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
No one seems to know what language it is or what it means. However,
someone suggested that it might be a Turkish form of Armenian written in
the Roman alphabet. Does that make any sense?
Not in Armenian, it doesn't.
a***@gmail.com
2017-12-03 07:49:05 UTC
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Post by arminoacid
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
No one seems to know what language it is or what it means. However,
someone suggested that it might be a Turkish form of Armenian written in
the Roman alphabet. Does that make any sense?
Not in Armenian, it doesn't.
No, it doesn't. It makes no sense to me. It is true that Garaped
is an Armenian give name. The first consonant is a cut between 'K' and 'G'
in Eastern Armenian. I think in Western Armenian it is pronounced 'G'.
Armino might want to confirm.

The word 'sireleq' means 'you have loved' or 'you have liked' in Armenian, but
I think that is just a coincidence. The passage does not mean anything to me.

Respectfully,
Navi.
Peter Moylan
2017-12-03 10:09:21 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by arminoacid
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
No one seems to know what language it is or what it means. However,
someone suggested that it might be a Turkish form of Armenian written in
the Roman alphabet. Does that make any sense?
Not in Armenian, it doesn't.
No, it doesn't. It makes no sense to me. It is true that Garaped
is an Armenian give name. The first consonant is a cut between 'K' and 'G'
in Eastern Armenian. I think in Western Armenian it is pronounced 'G'.
Armino might want to confirm.
Google Translate insists that in Armenian it means

Uhant carpets are empty
Iight igun is a sleek coat,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Lightweight eyelashes eliut karapet.

but then it gives the same translation assuming Azerbaijani or Kazakh.
In Basque the second line is "I kill you bye".

I didn't intend to work my way through Google's languages, but the Urdu
version is fascinating:

Get rid of kicky kettle
At the same time,
Poppy Speech Pilate
Involve Algorithm Allotype.

Has anyone considered the possibility that it is a cipher?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
occam
2017-12-03 10:58:50 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by arminoacid
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
No one seems to know what language it is or what it means. However,
someone suggested that it might be a Turkish form of Armenian written in
the Roman alphabet. Does that make any sense?
Not in Armenian, it doesn't.
No, it doesn't. It makes no sense to me. It is true that Garaped
is an Armenian give name. The first consonant is a cut between 'K' and 'G'
in Eastern Armenian. I think in Western Armenian it is pronounced 'G'.
Armino might want to confirm.
Google Translate insists that in Armenian it means
Uhant carpets are empty
Iight igun is a sleek coat,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Lightweight eyelashes eliut karapet.
but then it gives the same translation assuming Azerbaijani or Kazakh.
In Basque the second line is "I kill you bye".
I didn't intend to work my way through Google's languages, but the Urdu
Get rid of kicky kettle
At the same time,
Poppy Speech Pilate
Involve Algorithm Allotype.
Has anyone considered the possibility that it is a cipher?
Has anyone considered the possibility that 'Google Translate' is taking
the piss? I have never been convinced of its claim that it can handle
the extensive list of 'language pairs' shown on the site. What we are
seeing is empirical proof that it cannot. (I am curious to know which
language Richard H.'s translation is from?)
Richard Heathfield
2017-12-03 14:52:32 UTC
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On 03/12/17 10:58, occam wrote:

<snip>
Post by occam
Has anyone considered the possibility that 'Google Translate' is taking
the piss? I have never been convinced of its claim that it can handle
the extensive list of 'language pairs' shown on the site. What we are
seeing is empirical proof that it cannot. (I am curious to know which
language Richard H.'s translation is from?)
English, I'm afraid. I didn't use Google Translate. I used Richard
Translate. This is not software, but wetware.

It works like this. Given an arbitrary word or phrase in a foreign
language, such as:

arvno anfio cenka grapolr

(and yes, I just mashed the keyboard to get that phrase), I now
translate each word in turn. If it happens to remind me of a foreign
word that I /do/ know, then obviously that's the correct translation. If
it doesn't, I pick the nearest English word or words that convey
approximately the same sound and which might conceivably be
grammatically correct.

In this case:

"arvno anfio cenka grapolr"

becomes

"Have no hand fee, O conker grappler."

In one of my exams for Latin O-level, I latched onto the word "uxor" and
- using much the same technique as outlined above - I went on to
describe the joy of the wedding, the dancing of the guests, and so on. I
discovered later (after the exam, of course) that the passage was
actually about a chap waving goodbye to his family as the ship departs
that is carrying him away into exile without them. Oops.

Astonishingly, I passed. (Despite the above, rather than because of it.)
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Jerry Friedman
2017-12-04 17:55:51 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by arminoacid
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
No one seems to know what language it is or what it means. However,
someone suggested that it might be a Turkish form of Armenian written in
the Roman alphabet. Does that make any sense?
Not in Armenian, it doesn't.
No, it doesn't. It makes no sense to me. It is true that Garaped
is an Armenian give name. The first consonant is a cut between 'K' and 'G'
in Eastern Armenian. I think in Western Armenian it is pronounced 'G'.
Armino might want to confirm.
Google Translate insists that in Armenian it means
Uhant carpets are empty
Iight igun is a sleek coat,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Lightweight eyelashes eliut karapet.
but then it gives the same translation assuming Azerbaijani or Kazakh.
In Basque the second line is "I kill you bye".
I didn't intend to work my way through Google's languages, but the Urdu
Get rid of kicky kettle
At the same time,
Poppy Speech Pilate
Involve Algorithm Allotype.
Has anyone considered the possibility that it is a cipher?
Has anyone considered the possibility that 'Google Translate' is taking
the piss? I have never been convinced of its claim that it can handle
the extensive list of 'language pairs' shown on the site. What we are
seeing is empirical proof that it cannot.
...

I don't think it is. We'd have to try real texts in those languages. We
do know it has a long way to go even for widely spoken languages.

Okay, I'll try a real text. Here's a paragraph from the Armenian
Wikipedia about Armenia's greatest chess player:

1962 թ. հաղթելով հավակնորդների մրցաշարում՝ Տիգրան Պետրոսյանն իրավունք է ստացել
Մ. Բոտվիննիկի հետ վիճարկել աշխարհի չեմպիոնի կոչումը։ Բոտվիննիկին Պետրոսյանը
հաղթեց 1963 թ. և նվաճեց աշխարհի չեմպիոնի կոչումը։

Here's Google's English translation:

1962 Tigran Petrosian has won the right to win the Candidates Tournament. Challenge Botvinnikov with World Champion title Botvinnik Petrosyan wins
in 1963 and won the title of world champion.

(That is, "In 1962 Tigran Petrosian won the Candidates Tournament and
thus won the right to challenge Botvinnik for the title of world
champion. In 1963 Petrosian beat Botvinnik and won the title of
world champion." You can kind of figure out what it's about.)

Here's Google's Basque translation:

1962 Tigran Petrosian irabazi du Hautagaien Txapelketa irabazteko
eskubidea. Challenge Botvinnikov Munduko txapeldun titulua Botvinnik
Petrosyan irabazi zuen 1963an eta munduko txapeldun titulua irabazi zuen.

Here's its English translation of the Basque:

In 1962, Tigran Petrosian released the Hautagaien Txapelketa irabazteko eskubidea. Botvinnikov Botvinnikov was born in 1963, and Botvinnik
Petrosyan was born in 1963, with a titular irabazi zuen.

I agree that something in that process qualifies as "can't handle".
The Google people might add "yet".
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2017-12-04 17:42:43 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by arminoacid
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ukhant karapet qulkt kirlerek
Iqat ighun chapuq sireleq,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Azlayn qoghular eliut karapet.
No one seems to know what language it is or what it means. However,
someone suggested that it might be a Turkish form of Armenian written in
the Roman alphabet. Does that make any sense?
Not in Armenian, it doesn't.
No, it doesn't. It makes no sense to me. It is true that Garaped
is an Armenian give name. The first consonant is a cut between 'K' and 'G'
in Eastern Armenian. I think in Western Armenian it is pronounced 'G'.
Armino might want to confirm.
Google Translate insists that in Armenian it means
Uhant carpets are empty
Iight igun is a sleek coat,
Poghtu Payghytei Pielereq
Lightweight eyelashes eliut karapet.
but then it gives the same translation assuming Azerbaijani or Kazakh.
In Basque the second line is "I kill you bye".
:-)
Post by Peter Moylan
I didn't intend to work my way through Google's languages, but the Urdu
Get rid of kicky kettle
At the same time,
Poppy Speech Pilate
Involve Algorithm Allotype.
Has anyone considered the possibility that it is a cipher?
Apparently not.

People at Language Log are pointing out Armenian or Armenian-ish
and Turkic words, but nobody can make sense of it, and apparently
that includes a real expert or two in the Turkic languages.
--
Jerry Friedman
RH Draney
2017-12-04 21:44:18 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Moylan
Has anyone considered the possibility that it is a cipher?
Apparently not.
People at Language Log are pointing out Armenian or Armenian-ish
and Turkic words, but nobody can make sense of it, and apparently
that includes a real expert or two in the Turkic languages.
"But apart from that, Mr Voynich, how did you like the manuscript?"...r
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