Discussion:
Updating old superstitions
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occam
2018-07-09 10:17:59 UTC
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Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.

Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
RH Draney
2018-07-09 12:03:11 UTC
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Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
You're probably safe walking under the window-washer platform, since the
source of the superstition is said to be that walking under a leaning
ladder interrupts the triangle formed by wall-floor-ladder and thus
disturbs the Trinity...similarly, it does no good to "knock on linoleum"
instead of wood because the artificial surface does not house the
wood-sprite that the original did....

I'm not sure *why* killing an albatross should bring bad luck, but
knowing the answer should settle the question of whether it applies to a
drone....r
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-09 12:17:39 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
You're probably safe walking under the window-washer platform, since the
source of the superstition is said to be that walking under a leaning
ladder interrupts the triangle formed by wall-floor-ladder and thus
disturbs the Trinity...similarly, it does no good to "knock on linoleum"
instead of wood because the artificial surface does not house the
wood-sprite that the original did....
I'm not sure *why* killing an albatross should bring bad luck, but
knowing the answer should settle the question of whether it applies to a
drone....r
"Because the albatross can fly long distances without flapping its wings,
soaring up and down using surface winds to glide, sailors used to believe
these birds were supernatural. They thought the albatross held the souls
of lost sailors, so they held the sea birds in high respect. To kill one would
bring bad luck to the crew and the ship."

In the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, the albatross is the bringer of the
favourable south wind which would bring the ship and crew home safely.
With the albatross killed, the winds turn and disaster follows.
David Kleinecke
2018-07-09 21:13:58 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
You're probably safe walking under the window-washer platform, since the
source of the superstition is said to be that walking under a leaning
ladder interrupts the triangle formed by wall-floor-ladder and thus
disturbs the Trinity...similarly, it does no good to "knock on linoleum"
instead of wood because the artificial surface does not house the
wood-sprite that the original did....
I'm not sure *why* killing an albatross should bring bad luck, but
knowing the answer should settle the question of whether it applies to a
drone....r
"Because the albatross can fly long distances without flapping its wings,
soaring up and down using surface winds to glide, sailors used to believe
these birds were supernatural. They thought the albatross held the souls
of lost sailors, so they held the sea birds in high respect. To kill one would
bring bad luck to the crew and the ship."
Folk explanation? Real sailor superstition? Predates Coleridge?
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
In the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, the albatross is the bringer of the
favourable south wind which would bring the ship and crew home safely.
With the albatross killed, the winds turn and disaster follows.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-09 22:59:11 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
You're probably safe walking under the window-washer platform, since the
source of the superstition is said to be that walking under a leaning
ladder interrupts the triangle formed by wall-floor-ladder and thus
disturbs the Trinity...similarly, it does no good to "knock on linoleum"
instead of wood because the artificial surface does not house the
wood-sprite that the original did....
I'm not sure *why* killing an albatross should bring bad luck, but
knowing the answer should settle the question of whether it applies to a
drone....r
"Because the albatross can fly long distances without flapping its wings,
soaring up and down using surface winds to glide, sailors used to believe
these birds were supernatural. They thought the albatross held the souls
of lost sailors, so they held the sea birds in high respect. To kill one would
bring bad luck to the crew and the ship."
Folk explanation? Real sailor superstition? Predates Coleridge?
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
In the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, the albatross is the bringer of the
favourable south wind which would bring the ship and crew home safely.
With the albatross killed, the winds turn and disaster follows.
There are certainly references to the sighting of an albatross as a good
omen earlier than Coleridge. OED has a 1698 quote calling the birds
"feathered Harbingers of the Cape". It doesn't seem unreasonable to
suppose that there were injunctions against tempting fate by harming
them.
John Varela
2018-07-10 00:19:56 UTC
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On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 12:17:39 UTC, Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
In the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, the albatross is the bringer of the
favourable south wind which would bring the ship and crew home safely.
With the albatross killed, the winds turn and disaster follows.
According to Martin Gardner's "The Annotated Ancient Mariner", that
wind was sending them northward into the Pacific Ocean, further from
home.
--
John Varela
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-10 10:59:31 UTC
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Post by John Varela
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 12:17:39 UTC, Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
In the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, the albatross is the bringer of the
favourable south wind which would bring the ship and crew home safely.
With the albatross killed, the winds turn and disaster follows.
According to Martin Gardner's "The Annotated Ancient Mariner", that
wind was sending them northward into the Pacific Ocean, further from
home.
Yes, a south wind sends a ship northward!
Horace LaBadie
2018-07-09 14:51:52 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
You're probably safe walking under the window-washer platform, since the
source of the superstition is said to be that walking under a leaning
ladder interrupts the triangle formed by wall-floor-ladder and thus
disturbs the Trinity...similarly, it does no good to "knock on linoleum"
instead of wood because the artificial surface does not house the
wood-sprite that the original did....
I'm not sure *why* killing an albatross should bring bad luck, but
knowing the answer should settle the question of whether it applies to a
drone....r
Unless drones are thought to be the souls of lost sailors, killing a
drone would probably be unlucky only because it's illegal to destroy
another person's property.
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-09 16:54:46 UTC
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Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
You're probably safe walking under the window-washer platform, since the
source of the superstition is said to be that walking under a leaning
ladder interrupts the triangle formed by wall-floor-ladder and thus
disturbs the Trinity...similarly, it does no good to "knock on linoleum"
instead of wood because the artificial surface does not house the
wood-sprite that the original did....
I'm not sure *why* killing an albatross should bring bad luck, but
knowing the answer should settle the question of whether it applies to a
drone....r
Unless drones are thought to be the souls of lost sailors, killing a
drone would probably be unlucky only because it's illegal to destroy
another person's property.
It is already illegal by USA laws to fire a bullet into the air
without aiming at anything.
OTOH, aiming at a drone owner who trespasses on your property
to recover his drone is quite legal of course,

Jan
occam
2018-07-11 16:56:54 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
You're probably safe walking under the window-washer platform, since the
source of the superstition is said to be that walking under a leaning
ladder interrupts the triangle formed by wall-floor-ladder and thus
disturbs the Trinity...similarly, it does no good to "knock on linoleum"
instead of wood because the artificial surface does not house the
wood-sprite that the original did....
I'm not sure *why* killing an albatross should bring bad luck, but
knowing the answer should settle the question of whether it applies to a
drone....r
Unless drones are thought to be the souls of lost sailors, killing a
drone would probably be unlucky only because it's illegal to destroy
another person's property.
It is already illegal by USA laws to fire a bullet into the air
without aiming at anything.
OTOH, aiming at a drone owner who trespasses on your property
to recover his drone is quite legal of course,
Not just the owner.

"I went and got my shotgun and said, 'I'm not going to do anything
unless it's directly over my property. Within a minute or so, here it
came. It was hovering over top of my property, and I shot it out of the
sky. I didn't shoot across the road. I didn't shoot across my neighbor's
fences. I shot directly into the air.

"When you're in your own property, within a six-foot privacy fence, you
have the expectation of privacy. We don't know if he was looking at the
girls. We don't know if he was looking for something to steal. To me, it
was the same as trespassing."

"Nevertheless, Merideth was arrested and charged with felony wanton
endangerment and with discharging a firearm in the city limits of Hillview.

A local judge promptly dismissed the charges. "

source:
https://eu.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2018/04/20/can-legally-shoot-down-drone-hovering-over-my-house-backyard-property/530286002/
Jerry Friedman
2018-07-11 17:34:17 UTC
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...
Post by occam
Post by J. J. Lodder
It is already illegal by USA laws to fire a bullet into the air
without aiming at anything.
OTOH, aiming at a drone owner who trespasses on your property
to recover his drone is quite legal of course,
Not just the owner.
"I went and got my shotgun and said, 'I'm not going to do anything
unless it's directly over my property. Within a minute or so, here it
came. It was hovering over top of my property, and I shot it out of the
sky. I didn't shoot across the road. I didn't shoot across my neighbor's
fences. I shot directly into the air.
"When you're in your own property, within a six-foot privacy fence, you
have the expectation of privacy. We don't know if he was looking at the
girls. We don't know if he was looking for something to steal. To me, it
was the same as trespassing."
"Nevertheless, Merideth was arrested and charged with felony wanton
endangerment and with discharging a firearm in the city limits of Hillview.
A local judge promptly dismissed the charges. "
https://eu.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2018/04/20/can-legally-shoot-down-drone-hovering-over-my-house-backyard-property/530286002/
Which implies it probably wasn't legal for Merideth and wouldn't be in a
lot of places, but you have a good chance of getting away with it in at
least some places.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2018-07-12 02:36:14 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by occam
Post by J. J. Lodder
It is already illegal by USA laws to fire a bullet into the air
without aiming at anything. OTOH, aiming at a drone owner who
trespasses on your property to recover his drone is quite legal
of course,
Not just the owner.
"I went and got my shotgun and said, 'I'm not going to do anything
unless it's directly over my property. Within a minute or so, here
it came. It was hovering over top of my property, and I shot it out
of the sky. I didn't shoot across the road. I didn't shoot across
my neighbor's fences. I shot directly into the air.
"When you're in your own property, within a six-foot privacy fence,
you have the expectation of privacy. We don't know if he was
looking at the girls. We don't know if he was looking for something
to steal. To me, it was the same as trespassing."
"Nevertheless, Merideth was arrested and charged with felony
wanton endangerment and with discharging a firearm in the city
limits of Hillview.
A local judge promptly dismissed the charges. "
https://eu.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2018/04/20/can-legally-shoot-down-drone-hovering-over-my-house-backyard-property/530286002/
Which implies it probably wasn't legal for Merideth and wouldn't be
in a lot of places, but you have a good chance of getting away with
it in at least some places.
Presumably the use of a firearm is the illegal aspect. But what if
people send up their own fighter drones to knock down the invaders? It
could be a growth industry, and there probably aren't any laws to cover
that case.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-12 10:41:50 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by occam
Post by J. J. Lodder
It is already illegal by USA laws to fire a bullet into the air
without aiming at anything. OTOH, aiming at a drone owner who
trespasses on your property to recover his drone is quite legal
of course,
Not just the owner.
"I went and got my shotgun and said, 'I'm not going to do anything
unless it's directly over my property. Within a minute or so, here
it came. It was hovering over top of my property, and I shot it out
of the sky. I didn't shoot across the road. I didn't shoot across
my neighbor's fences. I shot directly into the air.
"When you're in your own property, within a six-foot privacy fence,
you have the expectation of privacy. We don't know if he was
looking at the girls. We don't know if he was looking for something
to steal. To me, it was the same as trespassing."
"Nevertheless, Merideth was arrested and charged with felony
wanton endangerment and with discharging a firearm in the city
limits of Hillview.
A local judge promptly dismissed the charges. "
https://eu.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2018/04/20/can-legally-s
hoot-down-drone-hovering-over-my-house-backyard-property/530286002/
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Which implies it probably wasn't legal for Merideth and wouldn't be
in a lot of places, but you have a good chance of getting away with
it in at least some places.
Presumably the use of a firearm is the illegal aspect. But what if
people send up their own fighter drones to knock down the invaders? It
could be a growth industry, and there probably aren't any laws to cover
that case.
Dutch police forces experimented for a while
with training an American eagle as a drone killer.
(and apporter)
A case of claws over propellors.

The idea should appeal to Leftpondians,

Jan
CDB
2018-07-12 14:57:28 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by occam
Post by J. J. Lodder
It is already illegal by USA laws to fire a bullet into the
air without aiming at anything. OTOH, aiming at a drone owner
who trespasses on your property to recover his drone is quite
legal of course,
Not just the owner.
"I went and got my shotgun and said, 'I'm not going to do
anything unless it's directly over my property. Within a minute
or so, here it came. It was hovering over top of my property,
and I shot it out of the sky. I didn't shoot across the road. I
didn't shoot across my neighbor's fences. I shot directly into
the air.
"When you're in your own property, within a six-foot privacy
fence, you have the expectation of privacy. We don't know if he
was looking at the girls. We don't know if he was looking for
something to steal. To me, it was the same as trespassing."
"Nevertheless, Merideth was arrested and charged with felony
wanton endangerment and with discharging a firearm in the city
limits of Hillview.
A local judge promptly dismissed the charges. "
https://eu.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2018/04/20/can-legally-s
hoot-down-drone-hovering-over-my-house-backyard-property/530286002/
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Which implies it probably wasn't legal for Merideth and wouldn't
be in a lot of places, but you have a good chance of getting away
with it in at least some places.
Presumably the use of a firearm is the illegal aspect. But what if
people send up their own fighter drones to knock down the invaders?
It could be a growth industry, and there probably aren't any laws
to cover that case.
Dutch police forces experimented for a while with training an
American eagle as a drone killer. (and apporter) A case of claws over
propellors.
The idea should appeal to Leftpondians,
What a chimp can do we can too, with practice.

Love that video.
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-11 17:54:58 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
You're probably safe walking under the window-washer platform, since the
source of the superstition is said to be that walking under a leaning
ladder interrupts the triangle formed by wall-floor-ladder and thus
disturbs the Trinity...similarly, it does no good to "knock on linoleum"
instead of wood because the artificial surface does not house the
wood-sprite that the original did....
I'm not sure *why* killing an albatross should bring bad luck, but
knowing the answer should settle the question of whether it applies to a
drone....r
Unless drones are thought to be the souls of lost sailors, killing a
drone would probably be unlucky only because it's illegal to destroy
another person's property.
It is already illegal by USA laws to fire a bullet into the air
without aiming at anything.
OTOH, aiming at a drone owner who trespasses on your property
to recover his drone is quite legal of course,
Not just the owner.
"I went and got my shotgun and said, 'I'm not going to do anything
unless it's directly over my property. Within a minute or so, here it
came. It was hovering over top of my property, and I shot it out of the
sky. I didn't shoot across the road. I didn't shoot across my neighbor's
fences. I shot directly into the air.
"When you're in your own property, within a six-foot privacy fence, you
have the expectation of privacy. We don't know if he was looking at the
girls. We don't know if he was looking for something to steal. To me, it
was the same as trespassing."
"Nevertheless, Merideth was arrested and charged with felony wanton
endangerment and with discharging a firearm in the city limits of Hillview.
A local judge promptly dismissed the charges. "
https://eu.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2018/04/20/can-legally-shoo
t-down-drone-hovering-over-my-house-backyard-property/530286002/

That seems to be the case I remembered.
For your amusement, here is a case of premeditated killing of a drone.

They expected it, and equipped themselves beforehand
with adequate tools,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2018-07-09 12:20:29 UTC
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Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can
I look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's
garden attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Some of those drones are rather massive. You wouldn't want to have one
hanging around your neck.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Young
2018-07-09 15:23:03 UTC
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Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Don't know about drones and albatrosses. However, whether walking under
modern appliances is unlucky depends on what they are. The general
explanation of the superstition about ladders was that, in the UK at any
rate, up till the first part of the 199h Century criminals were often
hanged by being turned off ladders, so under a ladder was the unluckiest
place to be. As to modern appliances, cranes are used in Iran to hang
criminals from, so I suggest that walking under a crane might be unlucky,
but walking under other appliances might not be.

ObAUE: I am not in the lest superstitions, but the two most superstitious
people I knew were also two of the most devout Christians I knew. They
were my Irish Catholic mother-in-law and my Yorkshire Methodist
grandmother. I know that religion has nothing to do with logic, but that
seems illogical to me.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-09 15:35:11 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Don't know about drones and albatrosses. However, whether walking under
modern appliances is unlucky depends on what they are.
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
--
athel
Ken Blake
2018-07-09 16:39:48 UTC
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On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:35:11 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
I think it was Bob Hope who said it first, but my only superstition is
never walking under a black cat.
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-09 17:58:14 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:35:11 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
I think it was Bob Hope who said it first, but my only superstition is
never walking under a black cat.
You shouldn't walk over it either,

Jan
Mark Brader
2018-07-09 19:29:20 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
Exactly. And that's even true if nobody is on the ladder. It might not
have been positioned safely, and could fall over on its own, onto you.
Ladders are dangerous things.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "UNIX make moving not pain
***@vex.net | but almost pleasure." -- "Housewife", 1941
Jerry Friedman
2018-07-09 20:40:47 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
Exactly. And that's even true if nobody is on the ladder. It might not
have been positioned safely, and could fall over on its own, onto you.
Ladders are dangerous things.
An early source says, "It is unlucky to walk under a ladder; it may
prevent your being married that year."

--Francis Grose, /A Provincial Glossary: With a Collection of Local
Proverbs, and Popular Superstitions/ (1787)

https://books.google.com/books?id=mOZMAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA63

It's clear why that's considered a superstition--unless you think
the bad luck is that a falling object may prevent your marriage that year
by killing you. There are also supposed to be versions where it causes
you to die on the gallows, you can avoid the bad luck by spitting
three times between the rungs, and stuff.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2018-07-09 23:31:07 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered
bucket-lifts used for cleaning the windows of modern office
blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where
can I look up the mappings between old superstitions and their
modern equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over
one's garden attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Don't know about drones and albatrosses. However, whether walking
under modern appliances is unlucky depends on what they are.
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having
something dropped on you.
Right. And if a black cat passes in front of you at the time, you're
likely to trip over the cat and knock the ladder over.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mack A. Damia
2018-07-10 00:03:48 UTC
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On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:35:11 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Don't know about drones and albatrosses. However, whether walking under
modern appliances is unlucky depends on what they are.
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
A leaning ladder placed against a wall forms a triangle, and it was
considered as breaking (an insult to) the Trinity by walking under it.

Walking under a ladder was blasphemy.

The Egyptians, 5,000 years ago, also believed that the triangle was
sacred, and they considered passing under a ladder as desecrating
their gods. The superstition was carried forward to Christianity. It
was said that a ladder was leaning against the Cross when Christ was
crucified.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-10 03:17:54 UTC
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Post by Mack A. Damia
The Egyptians, 5,000 years ago, also believed that the triangle was
sacred, and they considered passing under a ladder as desecrating
their gods. The superstition was carried forward to Christianity. It
was said that a ladder was leaning against the Cross when Christ was
crucified.
Which Egyptian text from 3000 BCE are you citing?
David Kleinecke
2018-07-10 05:12:37 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
The Egyptians, 5,000 years ago, also believed that the triangle was
sacred, and they considered passing under a ladder as desecrating
their gods. The superstition was carried forward to Christianity. It
was said that a ladder was leaning against the Cross when Christ was
crucified.
Which Egyptian text from 3000 BCE are you citing?
Or any text in any language at any date?
bill van
2018-07-10 05:29:45 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
The Egyptians, 5,000 years ago, also believed that the triangle was
sacred, and they considered passing under a ladder as desecrating
their gods. The superstition was carried forward to Christianity. It
was said that a ladder was leaning against the Cross when Christ was
crucified.
Which Egyptian text from 3000 BCE are you citing?
I don't know, but I'm certain it will lead to freemasonry.

bill
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-10 12:31:05 UTC
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Post by bill van
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
The Egyptians, 5,000 years ago, also believed that the triangle was
sacred, and they considered passing under a ladder as desecrating
their gods. The superstition was carried forward to Christianity. It
was said that a ladder was leaning against the Cross when Christ was
crucified.
Which Egyptian text from 3000 BCE are you citing?
I don't know, but I'm certain it will lead to freemasonry.
Masons don't deserve to be paid for their work? Try running a news outlet
on that basis.
John Varela
2018-07-10 00:23:07 UTC
Reply
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On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:35:11 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Don't know about drones and albatrosses. However, whether walking under
modern appliances is unlucky depends on what they are.
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
People at the tops of ladders are often accompanied by paint
buckets.
--
John Varela
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-10 05:20:52 UTC
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Post by John Varela
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:35:11 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Don't know about drones and albatrosses. However, whether walking under
modern appliances is unlucky depends on what they are.
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
People at the tops of ladders are often accompanied by paint
buckets.
Stuff that my fall on you, in increasing order of unpleasantness:

1. Some paint;
2. A bucket full of paint;
3. The painter.
--
athel
RH Draney
2018-07-10 14:04:19 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by John Varela
People at the tops of ladders are often accompanied by paint
buckets.
1. Some paint;
2. A bucket full of paint;
3. The painter.
Or, if you're a cartoon character:

4. An anvil.
5. A safe.
6. A piano.

....r
John Dunlop
2018-07-11 08:23:46 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
Just be careful not to avoid walking under a ladder by stepping in front
of a bus.
--
John
occam
2018-07-12 15:47:51 UTC
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Post by John Dunlop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
Just be careful not to avoid walking under a ladder by stepping in front
of a bus.
This was my choice [see OP] on the day. It was either the adjacent road
or the walk under the modern 'ladder'. So I kicked the black cat out of
the way and I whistled my way home.

P.S. Tomorrow is Friday the 13th.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-12 16:13:24 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by John Dunlop
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've never understood why avoiding walking under a ladder is regarded
as a superstition, because it seems just common sense to me. If you
avoid walking under a ladder you reduce the chance of having something
dropped on you.
Just be careful not to avoid walking under a ladder by stepping in front
of a bus.
This was my choice [see OP] on the day. It was either the adjacent road
or the walk under the modern 'ladder'. So I kicked the black cat out of
the way and I whistled my way home.
P.S. Tomorrow is Friday the 13th.
For those of us that live through the night, it is!
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-09 17:11:54 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Young
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Don't know about drones and albatrosses. However, whether walking under
modern appliances is unlucky depends on what they are. The general
explanation of the superstition about ladders was that, in the UK at any
rate, up till the first part of the 199h Century criminals were often
hanged by being turned off ladders, so under a ladder was the unluckiest
place to be. As to modern appliances, cranes are used in Iran to hang
criminals from, so I suggest that walking under a crane might be unlucky,
but walking under other appliances might not be.
ObAUE: I am not in the lest superstitions, but the two most superstitious
people I knew were also two of the most devout Christians I knew. They
were my Irish Catholic mother-in-law and my Yorkshire Methodist
grandmother. I know that religion has nothing to do with logic, but that
seems illogical to me.
If you are of the mind that physical manifestations of evil (the Devil
and his minions) actually exist, which a good proportion of Christians
do, then it makes perfect sense to avoid meeting them down a dark
alley without a lantern! Of course if you tend rather to the Augustinian
then it's all a load of meaningless bollocks ... but you can never be too
careful!
Harrison Hill
2018-07-09 18:31:30 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Young
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Don't know about drones and albatrosses. However, whether walking under
modern appliances is unlucky depends on what they are. The general
explanation of the superstition about ladders was that, in the UK at any
rate, up till the first part of the 199h Century criminals were often
hanged by being turned off ladders, so under a ladder was the unluckiest
place to be. As to modern appliances, cranes are used in Iran to hang
criminals from, so I suggest that walking under a crane might be unlucky,
but walking under other appliances might not be.
ObAUE: I am not in the lest superstitions, but the two most superstitious
people I knew were also two of the most devout Christians I knew. They
were my Irish Catholic mother-in-law and my Yorkshire Methodist
grandmother. I know that religion has nothing to do with logic, but that
seems illogical to me.
If you are of the mind that physical manifestations of evil (the Devil
and his minions) actually exist, which a good proportion of Christians
do, then it makes perfect sense to avoid meeting them down a dark
alley without a lantern! Of course if you tend rather to the Augustinian
then it's all a load of meaningless bollocks ... but you can never be too
careful!
Then you watch "The Wicker Man". All that "meaningless bollocks"
chimes into our innermost instincts, and produces "common sense".
Richard Tobin
2018-07-09 19:42:04 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
Then you watch "The Wicker Man". All that "meaningless bollocks"
chimes into our innermost instincts, and produces "common sense".
Speak for yourself.

-- Richard
au76666
2018-07-10 07:35:20 UTC
Reply
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Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
[...]

Yes, you should be worried; you might get dripped on.
--
Dieter Britz
occam
2018-07-12 15:49:48 UTC
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Post by au76666
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
[...]
Yes, you should be worried; you might get dripped on.
It would only have been soap water. I'd prefer that to acid rain in many
a large city.
Richard Yates
2018-07-09 13:28:21 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Does dropping your phone while taking a selfie cause seven years of
bad luck?
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-10 11:02:32 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Does dropping your phone while taking a selfie cause seven years of
bad luck?
No. A few seconds .... and then all is silence usually!

<https://news.sky.com/story/british-woman-falls-to-her-death-taking-selfie-in-portugal-11403300>
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-10 11:18:14 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Richard Yates
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Does dropping your phone while taking a selfie cause seven years of
bad luck?
No. A few seconds .... and then all is silence usually!
<https://news.sky.com/story/british-woman-falls-to-her-death-taking-selfie-in-
portugal-11403300>

The phone was still in good heath and making noises,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-10 11:45:43 UTC
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On 2018-07-10 13:02:32 +0200, Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Richard Yates
Post by occam
Today I walked under one of those hydraulically powered bucket-lifts
used for cleaning the windows of modern office blocks.
Should I be worried? Do the ancient superstitions of
walking-under-ladders apply to modern appliances? If so, where can I
look up the mappings between old superstitions and their modern
equivalents? For example, does shooting a spy-drone over one's garden
attract the same bad luck as killing an albatross?
Does dropping your phone while taking a selfie cause seven years of
bad luck?
No. A few seconds .... and then all is silence usually!
<https://news.sky.com/story/british-woman-falls-to-her-death-taking-selfie-in-portugal-11403300>
That
can also happen to rich and powerful people. The other day Wang Jian,
the Chairman of the giant Chinese Conglomerate HNA Group, died in just
that way in Bonnieux, a very attractive village about 90 minutes' drive
from where I sit -- a sesquihour away, one might say.

Harold Holt, Prime Minister of Australia, discovered to his cost that
sharks don't care whether you're a head of government or not, and walls
don't care if you're the head of a large company when taking a selfie.
--
athel
Quinn C
2018-07-11 17:34:46 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Harold Holt, Prime Minister of Australia, discovered to his cost that
sharks don't care whether you're a head of government or not, [...]
| [...] no trace of his body was ever found. [...] Some have alleged
| that Holt committed suicide [...] Conspiracy theories have included
| suggestions that Holt faked his own death, was assassinated by the
| CIA, or was collected by a submarine so that he could defect to
| China.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Holt#Disappearance>

Even with so many theories, sharks aren't mentioned.
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-11 20:43:35 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Harold Holt, Prime Minister of Australia, discovered to his cost that
sharks don't care whether you're a head of government or not, [...]
| [...] no trace of his body was ever found. [...] Some have alleged
| that Holt committed suicide [...] Conspiracy theories have included
| suggestions that Holt faked his own death, was assassinated by the
| CIA, or was collected by a submarine so that he could defect to
| China.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Holt#Disappearance>
Even with so many theories, sharks aren't mentioned.
Supposing he drowned: what do you suppose happened to the body? Do you
think Martians came and fished him out?
--
athel
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-11 20:58:34 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Harold Holt, Prime Minister of Australia, discovered to his cost that
sharks don't care whether you're a head of government or not, [...]
| [...] no trace of his body was ever found. [...] Some have alleged
| that Holt committed suicide [...] Conspiracy theories have included
| suggestions that Holt faked his own death, was assassinated by the
| CIA, or was collected by a submarine so that he could defect to
| China.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Holt#Disappearance>
Even with so many theories, sharks aren't mentioned.
Supposing he drowned: what do you suppose happened to the body? Do you
think Martians came and fished him out?
Oh come on. We all know that with the lower gravity on Mars there's no
way Martians can ever develop the strength to fish the body out.
Quinn C
2018-07-12 18:11:23 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Harold Holt, Prime Minister of Australia, discovered to his cost that
sharks don't care whether you're a head of government or not, [...]
| [...] no trace of his body was ever found. [...] Some have alleged
| that Holt committed suicide [...] Conspiracy theories have included
| suggestions that Holt faked his own death, was assassinated by the
| CIA, or was collected by a submarine so that he could defect to
| China.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Holt#Disappearance>
Even with so many theories, sharks aren't mentioned.
Supposing he drowned: what do you suppose happened to the body? Do you
think Martians came and fished him out?
I suppose there are many other takers in the water, some of which even
have a preference for dead food.
--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts
agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer
professionals. We cause accidents.
Nathaniel Borenstein
Peter Moylan
2018-07-12 02:48:51 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Harold Holt, Prime Minister of Australia, discovered to his cost
that sharks don't care whether you're a head of government or not,
[...]
| [...] no trace of his body was ever found. [...] Some have alleged
| that Holt committed suicide [...] Conspiracy theories have
included | suggestions that Holt faked his own death, was
assassinated by the | CIA, or was collected by a submarine so that he
could defect to | China.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Holt#Disappearance>
Even with so many theories, sharks aren't mentioned.
That article is incomplete. At the time of his disappearance, "taken by
a shark" was probably the dominant theory. Some people did suspect some
combination of the CIA, the Russians, and the Chinese, but they were in
a minority.

Enough of us have had the experience of being dragged out by a rip to
know how quickly you can be pulled out to sea, and how hard it is to get
back. That particular beach is a dangerous one, being close to where a
large bay meets the ocean. Nobody with any sense would choose to swim there.

(Holt is remembered for his saying "All the way with LBJ", and dragging
us further into an unwinnable war, so we didn't credit him with much sense.)
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-12 05:20:45 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Harold Holt, Prime Minister of Australia, discovered to his cost
that sharks don't care whether you're a head of government or not,
[...]
| [...] no trace of his body was ever found. [...] Some have alleged
| that Holt committed suicide [...] Conspiracy theories have
included | suggestions that Holt faked his own death, was
assassinated by the | CIA, or was collected by a submarine so that he
could defect to | China.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Holt#Disappearance>
Even with so many theories, sharks aren't mentioned.
That article is incomplete. At the time of his disappearance, "taken by
a shark" was probably the dominant theory. Some people did suspect some
combination of the CIA, the Russians, and the Chinese, but they were in
a minority.
Enough of us have had the experience of being dragged out by a rip to
know how quickly you can be pulled out to sea, and how hard it is to get
back. That particular beach is a dangerous one, being close to where a
large bay meets the ocean. Nobody with any sense would choose to swim there.
Wasn't he also reported at the time as replying to an aide who said it
wasn't wise to go swimmming there that it was unheard of for a Prime
Minister to be eaten by sharks? It may of course have been a fanciful
invention by a journalist. But I return to my question to Quinn: what
does he think happened to the body, which was never found: was it the
CIA, the Russians, the Chinese, or sharks? I know which I think is the
most plausible.
Post by Peter Moylan
(Holt is remembered for his saying "All the way with LBJ", and dragging
us further into an unwinnable war, so we didn't credit him with much sense.)
--
athel
Mark Brader
2018-07-12 06:46:32 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Enough of us have had the experience of being dragged out by a rip to
know how quickly you can be pulled out to sea, and how hard it is to get
back. That particular beach is a dangerous one...
I don't swim. But I know, in case anyone here ever *is* in that situation,
that the standard advice is to swim across the rip current, i.e. parallel
to the shore. Turn inshore only when you're out of the rip.
But I return to my question to Quinn: what does he think happened
to the body, which was never found: was it the CIA, the Russians,
the Chinese, or sharks? I know which I think is the most plausible.
I don't have experience with dead bodies in water either, but I don't
think they always float. Maybe nothing "happened" to it, it just
wasn't found.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Canada resembles Chile a lot more than Chile does"
***@vex.net | --Athel Cornish-Bowden

My text in this article is in the public domain.
RHDraney
2018-07-12 07:35:44 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Enough of us have had the experience of being dragged out by a rip to
know how quickly you can be pulled out to sea, and how hard it is to get
back. That particular beach is a dangerous one...
I don't swim. But I know, in case anyone here ever *is* in that situation,
that the standard advice is to swim across the rip current, i.e. parallel
to the shore. Turn inshore only when you're out of the rip.
But I return to my question to Quinn: what does he think happened
to the body, which was never found: was it the CIA, the Russians,
the Chinese, or sharks? I know which I think is the most plausible.
I don't have experience with dead bodies in water either, but I don't
think they always float. Maybe nothing "happened" to it, it just
wasn't found.
The feet, it seems, end up on a beach in Vancouver....

With the running shoes still on them....r
Snidely
2018-07-12 07:40:34 UTC
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Post by RHDraney
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Enough of us have had the experience of being dragged out by a rip to
know how quickly you can be pulled out to sea, and how hard it is to get
back. That particular beach is a dangerous one...
I don't swim. But I know, in case anyone here ever *is* in that situation,
that the standard advice is to swim across the rip current, i.e. parallel
to the shore. Turn inshore only when you're out of the rip.
But I return to my question to Quinn: what does he think happened
to the body, which was never found: was it the CIA, the Russians,
the Chinese, or sharks? I know which I think is the most plausible.
I don't have experience with dead bodies in water either, but I don't
think they always float. Maybe nothing "happened" to it, it just
wasn't found.
The feet, it seems, end up on a beach in Vancouver....
With the running shoes still on them....r
As Bill Van will tell you, BECAUSE the running shoes are still on them.
(Leather shoes don't seem to work as well.)

/dps
--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-12 10:41:50 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Enough of us have had the experience of being dragged out by a rip to
know how quickly you can be pulled out to sea, and how hard it is to get
back. That particular beach is a dangerous one...
I don't swim. But I know, in case anyone here ever *is* in that situation,
that the standard advice is to swim across the rip current, i.e. parallel
to the shore. Turn inshore only when you're out of the rip.
But I return to my question to Quinn: what does he think happened
to the body, which was never found: was it the CIA, the Russians,
the Chinese, or sharks? I know which I think is the most plausible.
I don't have experience with dead bodies in water either, but I don't
think they always float. Maybe nothing "happened" to it, it just
wasn't found.
First dead bodiesthey sink, with water in the lungs.
After a few days they float, as gases develop.
Unless somebody or something interferes of course.

The fact is well known to fictional and real murderers of course.
The bizarre Kim Wall murder case may have escaped your attention,
but premeditation was taken to be proven
by the murdere having collected some heavy pieces of iron beforehand.

Jan
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-07-12 08:08:59 UTC
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:48:51 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Harold Holt, Prime Minister of Australia, discovered to his cost
that sharks don't care whether you're a head of government or not,
[...]
| [...] no trace of his body was ever found. [...] Some have alleged
| that Holt committed suicide [...] Conspiracy theories have
included | suggestions that Holt faked his own death, was
assassinated by the | CIA, or was collected by a submarine so that he
could defect to | China.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Holt#Disappearance>
Even with so many theories, sharks aren't mentioned.
That article is incomplete. At the time of his disappearance, "taken
by a shark" was probably the dominant theory. Some people did suspect
some combination of the CIA, the Russians, and the Chinese, but they
were in a minority.
Enough of us have had the experience of being dragged out by a rip to
know how quickly you can be pulled out to sea, and how hard it is to
get back. That particular beach is a dangerous one, being close to
where a large bay meets the ocean. Nobody with any sense would choose
to swim there.
(Holt is remembered for his saying "All the way with LBJ", and
dragging us further into an unwinnable war, so we didn't credit him
with much sense.)
The Australian coast isn't always so unforgiving; IIRC John Stonehouse
managed to get washed up there after a swim off Miami.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2018-07-12 13:15:06 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:48:51 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Harold Holt, Prime Minister of Australia, discovered to his
cost that sharks don't care whether you're a head of government
or not, [...]
| [...] no trace of his body was ever found. [...] Some have
alleged | that Holt committed suicide [...] Conspiracy theories
have included | suggestions that Holt faked his own death, was
assassinated by the | CIA, or was collected by a submarine so
that he could defect to | China.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Holt#Disappearance>
Even with so many theories, sharks aren't mentioned.
That article is incomplete. At the time of his disappearance,
"taken by a shark" was probably the dominant theory. Some people
did suspect some combination of the CIA, the Russians, and the
Chinese, but they were in a minority.
Enough of us have had the experience of being dragged out by a rip
to know how quickly you can be pulled out to sea, and how hard it
is to get back. That particular beach is a dangerous one, being
close to where a large bay meets the ocean. Nobody with any sense
would choose to swim there.
(Holt is remembered for his saying "All the way with LBJ", and
dragging us further into an unwinnable war, so we didn't credit
him with much sense.)
The Australian coast isn't always so unforgiving; IIRC John
Stonehouse managed to get washed up there after a swim off Miami.
Quite an achievement, given that he'd have to circumnavigate South
America to get from Miami to the Pacific Ocean.

It's unlikely that he reached land at Cheviot Beach. A look at the
region south of Melbourne will show why. Port Phillip Bay is a large bay
-- the largest in Australia, I think -- with a relatively narrow passage
to the open sea. When the tide is rising water has to rush into the bay,
and conversely on a receding tide. The resulting currents add up to a
lot of moving water. I don't know whether anyone has mapped it, but I'd
expect major circulating currents south of the bay.

Just east of that you have Western Port Bay, another tidal bay. (And no,
I don't know why it's not called Eastern Port.) That is semi-blocked by
Phillip Island, a popular tourist destination, whose beaches display an
interesting phenomenon. On the north side you have a gentle sea typical
of a bay. Just a short distance away, on the southern side of the
island, you get the savage waves of an ocean beach, in the treacherous
Bass Strait.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
RHDraney
2018-07-12 15:20:43 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The Australian coast isn't always so unforgiving; IIRC John
Stonehouse managed to get washed up there after a swim off Miami.
Quite an achievement, given that he'd have to circumnavigate South
America to get from Miami to the Pacific Ocean.
Perhaps he went the other way round....r
Peter Moylan
2018-07-12 15:34:31 UTC
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Post by RHDraney
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The Australian coast isn't always so unforgiving; IIRC John
Stonehouse managed to get washed up there after a swim off Miami.
Quite an achievement, given that he'd have to circumnavigate South
America to get from Miami to the Pacific Ocean.
Perhaps he went the other way round....r
Arctic Circle? Still tricky.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-12 15:38:01 UTC
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Post by RHDraney
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The Australian coast isn't always so unforgiving; IIRC John
Stonehouse managed to get washed up there after a swim off Miami.
Quite an achievement, given that he'd have to circumnavigate South
America to get from Miami to the Pacific Ocean.
Perhaps he went the other way round....r
Gulf Stream, North Atlantic Drift over Russia, California Current,
North Equatorial Drift, flip over at Papua New Guinea onto East
Australia Current. Simples!
Quinn C
2018-07-12 17:42:32 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The Australian coast isn't always so unforgiving; IIRC John
Stonehouse managed to get washed up there after a swim off Miami.
Quite an achievement, given that he'd have to circumnavigate South
America to get from Miami to the Pacific Ocean.
It's unlikely that he reached land at Cheviot Beach. A look at the
region south of Melbourne will show why. Port Phillip Bay is a large bay
-- the largest in Australia, I think -- with a relatively narrow passage
to the open sea. When the tide is rising water has to rush into the bay,
and conversely on a receding tide. The resulting currents add up to a
lot of moving water. I don't know whether anyone has mapped it, but I'd
expect major circulating currents south of the bay.
Probably detailed enough, but I find it amazing that we can have this
now in near real-time:

<https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/surface/currents/overlay=primary_waves/orthographic=-217.56,-39.13,3000>
--
Strategy: A long-range plan whose merit cannot be evaluated
until sometime after those creating it have left the organization.
Snidely
2018-07-13 08:38:48 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The Australian coast isn't always so unforgiving; IIRC John
Stonehouse managed to get washed up there after a swim off Miami.
Quite an achievement, given that he'd have to circumnavigate South
America to get from Miami to the Pacific Ocean.
It's unlikely that he reached land at Cheviot Beach. A look at the
region south of Melbourne will show why. Port Phillip Bay is a large bay
-- the largest in Australia, I think -- with a relatively narrow passage
to the open sea. When the tide is rising water has to rush into the bay,
and conversely on a receding tide. The resulting currents add up to a
lot of moving water. I don't know whether anyone has mapped it, but I'd
expect major circulating currents south of the bay.
Probably detailed enough, but I find it amazing that we can have this
<https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/surface/currents/overlay=primary_waves/orthographic=-217.56,-39.13,3000>
Ooooh, I need to have the wind chart animation going on a second
screen!

Thanks for the link!

/dps "!!!!1!"
--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)
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