Discussion:
The travails of communicating with a non-native English speaker, like an American
(too old to reply)
Dingbat
2017-04-20 06:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
... written by an Englishman, of course!

<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical American ...>>

http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-04-20 06:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?

Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
--
athel
Dingbat
2017-04-20 07:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
GordonD
2017-04-20 08:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with
a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your
typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the
idea that Americans do't always understand what British English
speakers write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the
same category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
I think Indian English speakers would be offended.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-20 11:43:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GordonD
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with
a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your
typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen
native English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the
idea that Americans do't always understand what British English
speakers write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the
same category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
I think Indian English speakers would be offended.
Are you aware that "Dingbat" is one?
Richard Heathfield
2017-04-20 09:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native English speakers.
It all depends on how one defines those words. The claim that only
Englishmen are native English speakers is perfectly defensible if one
chooses specific (but quite ordinary) meanings for those words, and
quite indefensible if one chooses other specific (but quite ordinary)
meanings for those words. For example, does the generic term
"Englishmen" include "English women" in this context? Some would say
'yes', and others would say 'no'. Those who would say 'no' would
presumably consider the claim to be false on those grounds alone. Those
who would say 'yes' are well on the way to showing the claim to be true.

So, as is so often the case, it all depends on what you mean.
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
What's not to like? And what has liking and disliking to do with anything?

Americans are not English. Indians are not English. The Irish are not
English. The Scots are not English. Australians are not English.

So, if we happen to be defining "native English speaker" as "someone
born in England", then members of all of those groups are non-native
speakers of English (if indeed they speak English at all, which some
might not).

But if we happen to be defining "native English speaker" as "someone for
whom English is their first language", anyone in any of those groups
might or might not be a native English speaker.

"Like" and "dislike" don't come into it.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-20 11:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native English speakers.
That depends entirely on the practical definition of "English" that one chooses.
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
You could poll the BrE-speakers to learn whether they find AmE or IndE more intelligible.
Robert Bannister
2017-04-24 02:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native English speakers.
That depends entirely on the practical definition of "English" that one chooses.
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
You could poll the BrE-speakers to learn whether they find AmE or IndE more intelligible.
That could come to a close call, depending on which part of America or
India the speakers came from.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
HVS
2017-04-20 17:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?

It might have been marginally witty in the 1880s when Wilde (or Shaw, or
whoever) remarked about two nations divided by a common language, but it
stopped being anything other than hackneyed about a century ago.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-04-20 17:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
It might have been marginally witty in the 1880s when Wilde (or Shaw, or
whoever) remarked about two nations divided by a common language, but it
stopped being anything other than hackneyed about a century ago.
+1
--
athel
Janet
2017-04-20 22:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
The article quoted is about British understatement, not about
American English.

Janet
Jerry Friedman
2017-04-25 03:10:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Janet
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
The article quoted is about British understatement, not about
American English.
Which makes it funny that the comment your typical American being a
non-native-English speaker is an overstatement.
--
Jerry Friedman
Janet
2017-04-25 11:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <odmemu$sq7$***@news.albasani.net>, ***@yahoo.com
says...
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Janet
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
The article quoted is about British understatement, not about
American English.
Which makes it funny that the comment your typical American being a
non-native-English speaker is an overstatement.
Isn't it typical of Americans, that they are not natives of England?


Janet
Jerry Friedman
2017-04-25 14:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Janet
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
The article quoted is about British understatement, not about
American English.
Which makes it funny that the comment
about
Post by Janet
Post by Jerry Friedman
your typical American being a
non-native-English speaker is an overstatement.
Isn't it typical of Americans, that they are not natives of England?
Very, but it's also typical of "non-native-English speaker" to mean
"person whose native language isn't English". Otherwise there's no
point to "speaker".

But maybe you're right, and the author used "speaker" for
"person"--misleadingly, I'd say, and probably misled himself by the
phrase "native English speaker"--in which case it's not an overstatement.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2017-04-25 17:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Janet
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
The article quoted is about British understatement, not about
American English.
Which makes it funny that the comment your typical American being a
non-native-English speaker is an overstatement.
Isn't it typical of Americans, that they are not natives of England?
Typical of Scots and Welsh, too.
--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945
Robert Bannister
2017-04-24 02:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
It might have been marginally witty in the 1880s when Wilde (or Shaw, or
whoever) remarked about two nations divided by a common language, but it
stopped being anything other than hackneyed about a century ago.
So, if American English is "proper English", does that make the various
British Englishes improper English?

Furthermore, even though those of us who live in Australia, New Zealand
and various parts of Africa do not speak exactly the same way as anyone
in Britain, there is more similarity in our languages than with the
various American English dialects. So there is still a bit of "us" and
"them" around, despite the fact that most of us who write in AUE do
understand each other.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Lewis
2017-04-24 06:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
It might have been marginally witty in the 1880s when Wilde (or Shaw, or
whoever) remarked about two nations divided by a common language, but it
stopped being anything other than hackneyed about a century ago.
So, if American English is "proper English", does that make the various
British Englishes improper English?
No. There are many varieties of English, all of which are proper.
--
'You're wizards!' she [Esk] screamed. 'Bloody well wizz!' --Equal Rites
HVS
2017-04-24 08:05:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 06:06:31 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Post by Lewis
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by HVS
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only
Englishmen native
Post by Lewis
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by HVS
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too
desperately tired
Post by Lewis
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by HVS
to gain any traction these days?
It might have been marginally witty in the 1880s when Wilde (or Shaw, or
whoever) remarked about two nations divided by a common
language, but it
Post by Lewis
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by HVS
stopped being anything other than hackneyed about a century ago.
So, if American English is "proper English", does that make the various
British Englishes improper English?
No. There are many varieties of English, all of which are proper.
Precisely.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanE (30 years) & BrE (34 years),
indiscriminately mixed
Peter Moylan
2017-04-25 07:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Furthermore, even though those of us who live in Australia, New Zealand
and various parts of Africa do not speak exactly the same way as anyone
in Britain, there is more similarity in our languages than with the
various American English dialects. So there is still a bit of "us" and
"them" around, despite the fact that most of us who write in AUE do
understand each other.
We understand one another's written English. (Most of the time.) Put us
all in the same room and we'd have to cope with spoken English. That's a
lot harder.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2017-04-25 03:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
It might have been marginally witty in the 1880s when Wilde (or Shaw, or
whoever) remarked about two nations divided by a common language, but it
stopped being anything other than hackneyed about a century ago.
The author's chum's list of "what the English mean" and "what the others
understand" is not altogether new either.
--
Jerry Friedman
Charles Bishop
2017-04-25 14:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by HVS
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
It might have been marginally witty in the 1880s when Wilde (or Shaw, or
whoever) remarked about two nations divided by a common language, but it
stopped being anything other than hackneyed about a century ago.
The author's chum's list of "what the English mean" and "what the others
understand" is not altogether new either.
Would this be

"The author's [friend's] list of . . ."

That is, is "chum" a synonym for friend?
--
charles
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-25 14:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Jerry Friedman
The author's chum's list of "what the English mean" and "what the others
understand" is not altogether new either.
Would this be
"The author's [friend's] list of . . ."
That is, is "chum" a synonym for friend?
It certainly was in the Hardy Boys books.

I read them before they started editing them for vocabulary and
stereotyping, so maybe
in current printings Chet Morton is no longer Frank & Joe's "chum."

And they probably no longer drive roadsters and coupes.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-04-25 20:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:13:33 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Jerry Friedman
The author's chum's list of "what the English mean" and "what the others
understand" is not altogether new either.
Would this be
"The author's [friend's] list of . . ."
That is, is "chum" a synonym for friend?
It certainly was in the Hardy Boys books.
Yes. That is its meaning. However the OED puts its "Frequency (in
current use)" in Band 4: 0.1 – 0.99 per million words, the same band as
"nonce". That compares with "steam" and "politics" in Band 6: 10 – 99
per million words.

Those are frequencies "in typical modern English usage".

http://public.oed.com/how-to-use-the-oed/key-to-frequency/

The underlying frequency data is derived primarily from version 2 of
the Google Books Ngrams data. This has been cross-checked against
data from other corpora, and re-analysed in order to handle
homographs and other ambiguities.
<etc>
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I read them before they started editing them for vocabulary and
stereotyping, so maybe
in current printings Chet Morton is no longer Frank & Joe's "chum."
And they probably no longer drive roadsters and coupes.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2017-04-25 19:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by HVS
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native
English speakers.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same
category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
It sounds like the writer thinks he's being clever, but good lord - surely
the "American English isn't proper English" trope is too desperately tired
to gain any traction these days?
It might have been marginally witty in the 1880s when Wilde (or Shaw, or
whoever) remarked about two nations divided by a common language, but it
stopped being anything other than hackneyed about a century ago.
The author's chum's list of "what the English mean" and "what the others
understand" is not altogether new either.
Would this be
"The author's [friend's] list of . . ."
That is, is "chum" a synonym for friend?
As far as I know, yes.

I was thinking of this sentence in the article Ranjit linked to:

"Happily, in order to prevent such confusion in the future, one of my
chums in England just sent me a very useful list of instances comparing
what the English say, what they actually mean, and what others understand
them to mean."
--
Jerry Friedman
Rich Ulrich
2017-04-25 22:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 12:36:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Happily, in order to prevent such confusion in the future, one of my
chums in England just sent me a very useful list of instances comparing
what the English say, what they actually mean, and what others understand
them to mean."
This made me think about the lovely skit or two that I saw
with "Obama's anger translator".

That probably went international after the White House
Correspondents' Dinner of 2015 (I say, after Googling).
--
Rich Ulrich
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-26 03:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 12:36:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Happily, in order to prevent such confusion in the future, one of my
chums in England just sent me a very useful list of instances comparing
what the English say, what they actually mean, and what others understand
them to mean."
This made me think about the lovely skit or two that I saw
with "Obama's anger translator".
Key & Peele.

Obama himself participated in one.
Post by Rich Ulrich
That probably went international after the White House
Correspondents' Dinner of 2015 (I say, after Googling).
Janet
2017-04-20 22:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native English speakers.
The article you quote says no such thing.


He's discussing cultural, social differences.

Janet.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-04-21 11:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Janet
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:25:28 PM UTC+5:30, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen
native English speakers.
The article you quote says no such thing.
I think Ranjit was probably misinterpreting the clumsy phrase
"non-native-English speaker")
Post by Janet
He's discussing cultural, social differences.
Janet.
--
athel
Dingbat
2017-04-21 12:46:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Ah, he means non-native-English English speaker! Or even native non-native-English English speaker.
Robert Bannister
2017-04-24 02:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
And your point is ... ?
... that there seem to be Englishmen who consider only Englishmen native English speakers.
We could have an entire thread or two on what exactly "native English"
and "native English speaker" mean. Of course, we'd never come to a
consensus.
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Don't we have enough examples in this very group to illustrate the idea
that Americans do't always understand what British English speakers
write (and vice versa)?
Ah, but how do you like American English speakers being cast in the same category as Indian English speakers - non-native speakers?
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Arindam Banerjee
2017-04-24 08:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
David Kleinecke
2017-04-24 17:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-04-24 17:29:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
--
athel
David Kleinecke
2017-04-24 18:03:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Doesn't seem to have been a very admirable person, though.
Dingbat
2017-04-24 22:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Doesn't seem to have been a very admirable person, though.
Why not?
Sam Plusnet
2017-04-25 20:39:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Doesn't seem to have been a very admirable person, though.
Why not?
Perhaps he disapproves of nude tennis-playing?

I had not heard of this activity until I read the Wikipedia article on her.
--
Sam Plusnet
Arindam Banerjee
2017-04-24 23:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Doesn't seem to have been a very admirable person, though.
From a documentary on her life I gathered that she has a disturbed childhood
and as a result could not mature into an adult - effectively she remained a
child and thought like a child. This could explain her popularity with
children and unpopularity with adults. That is, she was honest and
straightforward, and not devious.

Cheers,
Arindam Banerjee
Dingbat
2017-04-24 23:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Doesn't seem to have been a very admirable person, though.
From a documentary on her life I gathered that she has a disturbed childhood
and as a result could not mature into an adult - effectively she remained a
child and thought like a child. This could explain her popularity with
children and unpopularity with adults. That is, she was honest and
straightforward, and not devious.
Cheers,
Arindam Banerjee
From a UK paper:
Adulteress Enid Blyton 'ruined her ex-husband' | Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1410705/Adulteress-Enid-Blyton-ruined-her-ex-husband.html
Arindam Banerjee
2017-04-25 00:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Doesn't seem to have been a very admirable person, though.
From a documentary on her life I gathered that she has a disturbed childhood
and as a result could not mature into an adult - effectively she remained a
child and thought like a child. This could explain her popularity with
children and unpopularity with adults. That is, she was honest and
straightforward, and not devious.
Cheers,
Arindam Banerjee
Adulteress Enid Blyton 'ruined her ex-husband' | Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1410705/Adulteress-Enid-Blyton-ruined-her-ex-husband.html
Proves my point, how liars scheme to pull down good people, what a strong
habit that has now become! No wonder they are called presstitutes!
Cheryl
2017-04-25 10:31:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Doesn't seem to have been a very admirable person, though.
From a documentary on her life I gathered that she has a disturbed childhood
and as a result could not mature into an adult - effectively she remained a
child and thought like a child. This could explain her popularity with
children and unpopularity with adults. That is, she was honest and
straightforward, and not devious.
Cheers,
Arindam Banerjee
Adulteress Enid Blyton 'ruined her ex-husband' | Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1410705/Adulteress-Enid-Blyton-ruined-her-ex-husband.html
That hardly sounds like a dispassionate, carefully-researched biography!

I have a vague memory of hearing that Blyton's private life wasn't what
some people apparently expect a children's author to have, but can't
remember the details. I read and enjoyed her books as a child, but there
were other authors whose work I liked better.
--
Cheryl
Arindam Banerjee
2017-04-25 13:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by Dingbat
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Doesn't seem to have been a very admirable person, though.
From a documentary on her life I gathered that she has a disturbed childhood
and as a result could not mature into an adult - effectively she remained a
child and thought like a child. This could explain her popularity with
children and unpopularity with adults. That is, she was honest and
straightforward, and not devious.
Cheers,
Arindam Banerjee
Adulteress Enid Blyton 'ruined her ex-husband' | Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1410705/Adulteress-Enid-Blyton-ruined-her-ex-husband.html
That hardly sounds like a dispassionate, carefully-researched biography!
I have a vague memory of hearing that Blyton's private life wasn't what
some people apparently expect a children's author to have, but can't
remember the details. I read and enjoyed her books as a child, but there
were other authors whose work I liked better.
--
Cheryl
In the documentary about her the main issue that struck me was that Enid
Blyton did not care very much about her own children as she was more
interested in making other children happy. So her own children suffered.

My first Enid Blyton book was "Mr Galliano's Circus". I read it when I was 8.
It made a deep impression upon me and all my friends who read it. We all read
whatever we could find written by Enid Blyton. Her clear and simple language,
the characters, the plots, the happy endings, all made our childhood memorable
and happy. Enid Blyton is not just for children - she is also for old men so
when my father visited us he read only Enid Blyton leaving all other books.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-04-25 14:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Doesn't seem to have been a very admirable person, though.
Far from it. If I remember rightly she treated her first husband very badly.

I suppose by the standards of her day her social attitudes were common
enough, but she was certainly not a progressive thinker.
--
athel
Quinn C
2017-04-24 21:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Quite popular in my youth in Germany, although the books weren't
quite up to date any more.

Wikipedia tells me that St Clare's - the rage with girls only -
was changed considerably for the translation, transported from
1940s England into 1960s Germany (to a school called "Lindenhof").

The "Five" were so popular that more books were written in German
(and French) after Blyton's death in 1968; more German ones are
planned even as I write.

I found them repetitive even back then,
--
Some things are taken away from you, some you leave behind-and
some you carry with you, world without end.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.31
Janet
2017-04-25 11:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
At the time, (among other things) she was accused of being formulaic
( with parents out of the way, children have an adventure/solve a
mystery; pets, favourite food, and outwitting the enemy, are common
features). She was also accused (quite wrongly IMO) of using a limited
vocabulary in her childrens books. How times change; these days, the
Blyton reading vocabulary would be regarded as quite challenging for
such young readers.

The truth is that her adventure books were wildly popular with their
readers and certainly inspired many children (including me, and our
children) to read all-print books for pleasure.

Janet.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-25 14:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Janet
The truth is that her adventure books were wildly popular with their
readers and certainly inspired many children (including me, and our
children) to read all-print books for pleasure.
In recent years those seem to have come to be called "chapter books," in contrast,
I suppose, to picture books. Do you have that phrase Over There?
Katy Jennison
2017-04-25 16:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Janet
The truth is that her adventure books were wildly popular with their
readers and certainly inspired many children (including me, and our
children) to read all-print books for pleasure.
In recent years those seem to have come to be called "chapter books," in contrast,
I suppose, to picture books. Do you have that phrase Over There?
Never come across it here, and I'd have thought I might have heard it
from my grandchildren. But the OED has this draft addition from 2004:

Chapter book n. (a) a book containing records relating to an
ecclesiastical chapter or (later) to a branch of a secular organization
or society; (b) a children's book with text divided into chapters
(opposed to picture book).

[snip ecclesiastical examples]

1986 Christian Sci. Monitor 1 Dec. 62/1, I can read. I listened when
Mama was teaching Juniper. But I want to read chapter books but they're
too hard for me.
2003 Book Mar.–Apr. 36/1 Beverly Cleary's enduring, hilarious Ramona
books make great read-alouds for children who are ready to listen to
chapter books.

Probably the closest BrE equivalent would be a "reading book", ie the
particular book the child is currently assigned for reading. Used in
this household in the context of travelling: "Have you got a reading
book to take when we go to Birmingham?"
--
Katy Jennison
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-25 16:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Janet
The truth is that her adventure books were wildly popular with their
readers and certainly inspired many children (including me, and our
children) to read all-print books for pleasure.
In recent years those seem to have come to be called "chapter books," in contrast,
I suppose, to picture books. Do you have that phrase Over There?
Never come across it here, and I'd have thought I might have heard it
Chapter book n. (a) a book containing records relating to an
ecclesiastical chapter or (later) to a branch of a secular organization
or society; (b) a children's book with text divided into chapters
(opposed to picture book).
[snip ecclesiastical examples]
1986 Christian Sci. Monitor 1 Dec. 62/1, I can read. I listened when
Mama was teaching Juniper. But I want to read chapter books but they're
too hard for me.
2003 Book Mar.–Apr. 36/1 Beverly Cleary's enduring, hilarious Ramona
books make great read-alouds for children who are ready to listen to
chapter books.
1986! Goodness!
Post by Katy Jennison
Probably the closest BrE equivalent would be a "reading book", ie the
particular book the child is currently assigned for reading. Used in
this household in the context of travelling: "Have you got a reading
book to take when we go to Birmingham?"
Some say e-books are more convenient ...
Janet
2017-04-25 18:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Janet
The truth is that her adventure books were wildly popular with their
readers and certainly inspired many children (including me, and our
children) to read all-print books for pleasure.
In recent years those seem to have come to be called "chapter books," in contrast,
I suppose, to picture books. Do you have that phrase Over There?
I haven't heard it.

Janet
Ross
2017-04-25 21:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Janet
The truth is that her adventure books were wildly popular with their
readers and certainly inspired many children (including me, and our
children) to read all-print books for pleasure.
In recent years those seem to have come to be called "chapter books," in contrast,
I suppose, to picture books. Do you have that phrase Over There?
I have learned the expression just in the last couple of months, through
interactions with young readers. My interpretation of the meaning was
that a "chapter book" is one that contains a single story (divided into
chapters), rather than a collection of shorter stories.
Cheryl
2017-04-25 22:01:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Janet
The truth is that her adventure books were wildly popular with their
readers and certainly inspired many children (including me, and our
children) to read all-print books for pleasure.
In recent years those seem to have come to be called "chapter books," in contrast,
I suppose, to picture books. Do you have that phrase Over There?
I have learned the expression just in the last couple of months, through
interactions with young readers. My interpretation of the meaning was
that a "chapter book" is one that contains a single story (divided into
chapters), rather than a collection of shorter stories.
I first heard "chapter books" when a friend's children were learning to
read, which must be 10-30 years ago. When I and my siblings were
learning to read, we never used that term. We had 'picture books' and
'books'.
--
Cheryl
Rich Ulrich
2017-04-26 06:22:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Janet
The truth is that her adventure books were wildly popular with their
readers and certainly inspired many children (including me, and our
children) to read all-print books for pleasure.
In recent years those seem to have come to be called "chapter books," in contrast,
I suppose, to picture books. Do you have that phrase Over There?
I have learned the expression just in the last couple of months, through
interactions with young readers. My interpretation of the meaning was
that a "chapter book" is one that contains a single story (divided into
chapters), rather than a collection of shorter stories.
I first heard "chapter books" when a friend's children were learning to
read, which must be 10-30 years ago. When I and my siblings were
learning to read, we never used that term. We had 'picture books' and
'books'.
I saw a section labeled "chapter" in the University Book Store (Pitt)
maybe 15 years ago. I asked about it because I had never heard
of it. I had quit book-shopping there once they quit keeping an
up-to-date sci-fi section. I think that would have been even before
the general disappearance of book stores, so I don't know when
they started the category.
--
Rich Ulrich
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-04-25 14:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Quite popular in my youth in Germany, although the books weren't
quite up to date any more.
Her puppet creation Noddy is called Oui-Oui in French, a name that
sometimes inspires mirth among English spakers.
Post by Quinn C
Wikipedia tells me that St Clare's - the rage with girls only -
was changed considerably for the translation, transported from
1940s England into 1960s Germany (to a school called "Lindenhof").
The "Five" were so popular that more books were written in German
(and French) after Blyton's death in 1968; more German ones are
planned even as I write.
I found them repetitive even back then,
--
athel
CDB
2017-04-25 15:42:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[original name Blighton]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the
UK), and every librarian's least favourite author.
Quite popular in my youth in Germany, although the books weren't
quite up to date any more.
Her puppet creation Noddy is called Oui-Oui in French, a name that
sometimes inspires mirth among English spakers.
Strange the French didn't take steps to avoid it. They changed "Pippi
(Longstocking)" to "Fifi (Brindacier)". Fair Pippi Aulongdesbas.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Wikipedia tells me that St Clare's - the rage with girls only - was
changed considerably for the translation, transported from 1940s
England into 1960s Germany (to a school called "Lindenhof").
The "Five" were so popular that more books were written in German
(and French) after Blyton's death in 1968; more German ones are
planned even as I write.
I found them repetitive even back then,
Quinn C
2017-04-25 16:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Quite popular in my youth in Germany, although the books weren't
quite up to date any more.
Her puppet creation Noddy is called Oui-Oui in French, a name that
sometimes inspires mirth among English spakers.
How childish. It seems like a sensible translation - and a good
representation of political yes-men.

I didn't know this character/book series, I had to look it up to
see what's it in German. Originally, it was translated as "Nicki",
but some later books kept the original name "Noddy". It doesn't
look like they're still being printed.

I don't know about "Noddy", but "Nicki" is such a common, uuuh,
nickname that it doesn't make me look for a meaning behind it.
--
Microsoft designed a user-friendly car:
instead of the oil, alternator, gas and engine
warning lights it has just one: "General Car Fault"
Janet
2017-04-25 20:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Quite popular in my youth in Germany, although the books weren't
quite up to date any more.
Her puppet creation Noddy is called Oui-Oui in French, a name that
sometimes inspires mirth among English spakers.
How childish.
Childishness is an occupational hazard of being about 3 years old,
which Noddy's fans generally are.

Janet
Quinn C
2017-04-26 17:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Janet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Quite popular in my youth in Germany, although the books weren't
quite up to date any more.
Her puppet creation Noddy is called Oui-Oui in French, a name that
sometimes inspires mirth among English spakers.
How childish.
Childishness is an occupational hazard of being about 3 years old,
which Noddy's fans generally are.
British 3-year-olds get read the French version by their tiger
moms?
--
The bee must not pass judgment on the hive. (Voxish proverb)
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.125
RH Draney
2017-04-24 22:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
And well enough known that John Lennon called one of his short stories
"The Famous Five through Woenow Abbey" (to be taken about as seriously
as my own suggestion of "Cherry Ames: Lesbian Nurse")....r
Richard Bollard
2017-04-26 02:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
And well enough known that John Lennon called one of his short stories
"The Famous Five through Woenow Abbey" (to be taken about as seriously
as my own suggestion of "Cherry Ames: Lesbian Nurse")....r
There are a few Enid Blyton parodies available. "Five Go Gluten Free"
is one.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Richard Tobin
2017-04-26 07:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Bollard
There are a few Enid Blyton parodies available. "Five Go Gluten Free"
is one.
And the "Five Go Mad" television programs.

-- Richard
Quinn C
2017-04-26 17:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Bollard
Post by RH Draney
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
And well enough known that John Lennon called one of his short stories
"The Famous Five through Woenow Abbey" (to be taken about as seriously
as my own suggestion of "Cherry Ames: Lesbian Nurse")....r
There are a few Enid Blyton parodies available. "Five Go Gluten Free"
is one.
When I checked her titles yesterday, I ran into "Five on Brexit
Island".
--
Woman is a pair of ovaries with a human being attached, whereas
man is a human being furnished with a pair of testes.
-- Rudolf Virchow
Dingbat
2017-04-24 23:14:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical
American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Once when I went to Picadilly Circus at night, it was gaily lighted for the Enid Blyton centenary. A search turns up no images of that.
Peter Moylan
2017-04-25 07:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a
baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your
typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
When I was a child she was every child's favourite author (in the UK),
and every librarian's least favourite author.
Her books were banned from libraries after Noddy felt a little queer.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Lewis
2017-04-25 03:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
A very well known British author of children's books.
--
I AM SO VERY TIRED Bart chalkboard Ep. AABF20
Janet
2017-04-25 11:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Arindam Banerjee
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Pity that in real life they do not speak like the Enid Blyton characters.
Who's Enid Blyton?
" An English children's writer whose books have been among the world's
best-sellers since the 1930s, selling more than 600 million copies.
Blyton's books are still enormously popular, and have been translated
into almost 90 languages;" )wiki)

Janet
m***@gmail.com
2017-04-25 15:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Of course the English now represent a small minority of native English speakers in the world. Perhaps British English should be considered a dialect....

(There are of course far more native speakers of American English than there of British English.)

:-)
Tex
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-04-25 18:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Of course the English now represent a small minority of native English speakers in the world. Perhaps British English should be considered a dialect....
British English is already a collection of dialects, although they are
not as mutually incomprehensible as they used to be.
Post by m***@gmail.com
(There are of course far more native speakers of American English than there of British English.)
:-)
Tex
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Arindam Banerjee
2017-04-27 06:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Of course the English now represent a small minority of native English speakers in the world. Perhaps British English should be considered a dialect....
British English is already a collection of dialects, although they are
not as mutually incomprehensible as they used to be.
Isn't it what the Germans on the British throne have been taught?
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by m***@gmail.com
(There are of course far more native speakers of American English than there of British English.)
:-)
Tex
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
David Kleinecke
2017-04-25 20:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Dingbat
... written by an Englishman, of course!
<<... when someone from England is attempting to communicate with a baffled and bewildered non-native-English speaker -- like your typical American ...>>
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=216&doc_id=1331369
Of course the English now represent a small minority of native English speakers in the world. Perhaps British English should be considered a dialect....
(There are of course far more native speakers of American English than there of British English.)
Agreed. Except that both a dialect bundles. There is no homogeneous
BritE or UsE. I think also not a AusE nor a CanE homogeneous dialect.
Loading...