Discussion:
Laters! versus Your obedient servant
Add Reply
g***@gmail.com
2017-12-05 04:42:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.

The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)


I notice that a difference between UK and North American correspondence is the choice of:

Yours sincerely (N.America)

and

Yours faithfully (UK)

I believe it balances out, thus:

North Americans are sincere, but not faithful.
Britons are faithful, but not sincere.
Peter Moylan
2017-12-05 05:07:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
I was taught to use both, in different circumstances:
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".

That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
occam
2017-12-05 09:44:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required. For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
a***@gmail.com
2017-12-05 11:42:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required. For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
That was the rule I was taught too. 'Your faithfully' was supposed to imply
distance.

Respectfully,
Navi.
the Omrud
2017-12-05 13:53:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required. For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
That was the rule I was taught too. 'Your faithfully' was supposed to imply
distance.
Indeed. The form of address at the top mattered as well. If you wrote
Dear Mr Smith or Dear Freda then you finished Yours Sincerely. If you
wrote Dear Sir or Dear Madam, then you finished Yours Faithfully.
--
David
Tony Cooper
2017-12-05 14:34:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by the Omrud
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required. For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
That was the rule I was taught too. 'Your faithfully' was supposed to imply
distance.
Dear Mr Smith or Dear Freda then you finished Yours Sincerely. If you
wrote Dear Sir or Dear Madam, then you finished Yours Faithfully.
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year. I can't think of
doing so myself. A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.

I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Cheryl
2017-12-05 14:48:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by the Omrud
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les
plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required. For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
That was the rule I was taught too. 'Your faithfully' was supposed to imply
distance.
Dear Mr Smith or Dear Freda then you finished Yours Sincerely. If you
wrote Dear Sir or Dear Madam, then you finished Yours Faithfully.
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year. I can't think of
doing so myself. A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
I wrote one over the weekend. It was to a business that wanted me to
submit some information the old-fashioned way - their website (they did
have one) claimed that they'd accept things by fax, but cleverly avoided
putting their fax number anywhere I could find it. Their online account
system only worked if you were in the US. I think I used "Yours
sincerely", which wasn't really a sincere expression of appreciation
since I was really thinking "Why don't you do things the modern way?"
But I want something from them, so I was restrained.

I don't suppose you can count writing a line or two on a greeting card
as "writing a letter". I've done a few of those recently, with more to
come. I didn't write "sincerely" or "truly" on those.

I'm trying to remember the last time before last weekend that I wrote a
real letter (aside from work, and that's almost all emails instead of
letters). I can't really remember. I send little handwritten notes to an
elderly relative from time to time, but they're not much longer than the
"best wishes" sentences on a Christmas card.

Some of my relatives used to send long letters at Christmas - at least
one tended to focus mostly on all the things that had gone wrong during
the year. But I think all the letter-writers are now dead, and most of
their descendants are on Facebook.
--
Cheryl
Peter Moylan
2017-12-06 02:23:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tony Cooper
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year. I can't think of
doing so myself. A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
I wrote one over the weekend. It was to a business that wanted me to
submit some information the old-fashioned way - their website (they did
have one) claimed that they'd accept things by fax, but cleverly avoided
putting their fax number anywhere I could find it. Their online account
system only worked if you were in the US. I think I used "Yours
sincerely", which wasn't really a sincere expression of appreciation
since I was really thinking "Why don't you do things the modern way?"
But I want something from them, so I was restrained.
In my experience there are just two groups left that insist on doing
things the old-fashioned way (e.g. cheques through the mail, rather than
direct bank transfer): lawyers and medical specialists. The medical ones
are a big pain in the arse because of having to route claims, again by
mail, for both public and private health insurance. GPs automatically
send those claims for you via the internet, but specialists don't know
how to do that.

I write a lot of letters to the editor, but that is done via the
newspaper's web site. The "Dear Sir" and the closing are neither needed
nor wanted.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-12-05 15:01:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 05 Dec 2017 09:34:26 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by the Omrud
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les
plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required. For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
That was the rule I was taught too. 'Your faithfully' was supposed to imply
distance.
Dear Mr Smith or Dear Freda then you finished Yours Sincerely. If you
wrote Dear Sir or Dear Madam, then you finished Yours Faithfully.
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year. I can't think of
doing so myself. A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
Also a "letter to the editor" in the UK.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-12-05 15:59:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 05 Dec 2017 09:34:26 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by the Omrud
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les
plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required. For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
That was the rule I was taught too. 'Your faithfully' was supposed to imply
distance.
Dear Mr Smith or Dear Freda then you finished Yours Sincerely. If you
wrote Dear Sir or Dear Madam, then you finished Yours Faithfully.
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year. I can't think of
doing so myself. A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
Also a "letter to the editor" in the UK.
I think that traditionally letters to the editor ended "Yours etc.",
which I always found quite odd. I'm thinking in particular of The Times
before Murdoch got his grubby hands on it.
--
athel
occam
2017-12-05 16:10:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 05 Dec 2017 09:34:26 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les
plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being
addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required.  For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
That was the rule I was taught too. 'Your faithfully' was supposed to imply
distance.
Dear Mr Smith or Dear Freda then you finished Yours Sincerely.  If you
wrote Dear Sir or Dear Madam, then you finished Yours Faithfully.
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year.  I can't think of
doing so myself.  A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
Also a "letter to the editor" in the UK.
I think that traditionally letters to the editor ended "Yours etc.",
which I always found quite odd. I'm thinking in particular of The Times
before Murdoch got his grubby hands on it.
Surely the 'etc.' was the newspaper's predilection, imposed on all
published letters. I cannot imagine a normal person signing off a letter
with "Yours etc."
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-12-05 16:13:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 05 Dec 2017 09:34:26 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les
plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required.  For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
That was the rule I was taught too. 'Your faithfully' was supposed to imply
distance.
Dear Mr Smith or Dear Freda then you finished Yours Sincerely.  If you
wrote Dear Sir or Dear Madam, then you finished Yours Faithfully.
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year.  I can't think of
doing so myself.  A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
Also a "letter to the editor" in the UK.
I think that traditionally letters to the editor ended "Yours etc.",
which I always found quite odd. I'm thinking in particular of The Times
before Murdoch got his grubby hands on it.
Surely the 'etc.' was the newspaper's predilection, imposed on all
published letters. I cannot imagine a normal person signing off a letter
with "Yours etc."
Could be. I don't know.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-12-05 19:35:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 05 Dec 2017 09:34:26 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les
plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required.  For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
That was the rule I was taught too. 'Your faithfully' was supposed to imply
distance.
Dear Mr Smith or Dear Freda then you finished Yours Sincerely.  If you
wrote Dear Sir or Dear Madam, then you finished Yours Faithfully.
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year.  I can't think of
doing so myself.  A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
Also a "letter to the editor" in the UK.
I think that traditionally letters to the editor ended "Yours etc.",
which I always found quite odd. I'm thinking in particular of The Times
before Murdoch got his grubby hands on it.
Surely the 'etc.' was the newspaper's predilection, imposed on all
published letters. I cannot imagine a normal person signing off a letter
with "Yours etc."
It is no longer printed like that. The letter to the editor in
newspapers I read or see don't have any sort of "Yours" sign-off.
The Times (of London) has the name of the sender followed by either
their address (town/city only) or some sort of organisational status.
Three from today's edition are:

IAN DEWAR
Chaplain, Royal Lancaster Infirmary

LORD LEXDEN
House of Lords

DAVID HABERSHON
Emsworth, Hants

My local papers uses the same town/city-only address or status.

One letter-writer today is

TERRI BUSH
Volunteer stamp appeal co-ordinator

The local papers in my area sometimes mark emailed letters as
By email
instead of giving the town/city or the writer's status.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Percival P. Cassidy
2017-12-05 19:44:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les
plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful,
but not sincere.
(a) For a business letter, you're expected to be faithful but not
sincere, so you close with "Yours faithfully".
(b) For a personal letter, e.g. to a lover, you're expected to be
sincere but not necessarily faithful, so you close with "Yours sincerely".
That was some years ago. These days we drop both the fidelity and the
sincerity from personal letters, but we're still expected to be faithful
to our business correspondents.
I also was taught to distinguish between the two, however it had nothing
to do with faithfulness or sincerity. If the person being addressed was
someone you know personally e.g. a colleague, boss, 'yours sincerely'
was in order. If the person was a faceless bureaucrat e.g. a civil
servant, a banker manager (never met) etc, 'yours faithfully' was
required.  For a lover, a wife or a dear friend, 'with love' or 'warm
regards' was more appropriate.
That was the rule I was taught too. 'Your faithfully' was supposed to imply
distance.
Dear Mr Smith or Dear Freda then you finished Yours Sincerely.  If you
wrote Dear Sir or Dear Madam, then you finished Yours Faithfully.
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year.  I can't think of
doing so myself.  A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
Also a "letter to the editor" in the UK.
I think that traditionally letters to the editor ended "Yours etc.",
which I always found quite odd. I'm thinking in particular of The Times
before Murdoch got his grubby hands on it.
Surely the 'etc.' was the newspaper's predilection, imposed on all
published letters. I cannot imagine a normal person signing off a letter
with "Yours etc."
It is no longer printed like that. The letter to the editor in
newspapers I read or see don't have any sort of "Yours" sign-off.
The Times (of London) has the name of the sender followed by either
their address (town/city only) or some sort of organisational status.
IAN DEWAR
Chaplain, Royal Lancaster Infirmary
LORD LEXDEN
House of Lords
DAVID HABERSHON
Emsworth, Hants
My local papers uses the same town/city-only address or status.
One letter-writer today is
TERRI BUSH
Volunteer stamp appeal co-ordinator
The local papers in my area sometimes mark emailed letters as
By email
instead of giving the town/city or the writer's status.
My local paper -- Mid-West USA -- gives the name and "The writer is a
resident of ..."

Perce
Mark Brader
2017-12-06 08:00:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The Times (of London) has the name of the sender followed by either
their address (town/city only) or some sort of organisational status.
IAN DEWAR
Chaplain, Royal Lancaster Infirmary
LORD LEXDEN
House of Lords
DAVID HABERSHON
Emsworth, Hants
"Status" seems wrong to me. That's about whether the guy's membership
payments are up to date or something. "Position" is the word I'd use.
--
Mark Brader | Peter Neumann on Y2K:
Toronto | This problem gives new meaning to "going out on
***@vex.net | a date" (which many systems will do on 1/1/00).
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-12-06 12:05:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The Times (of London) has the name of the sender followed by either
their address (town/city only) or some sort of organisational status.
IAN DEWAR
Chaplain, Royal Lancaster Infirmary
LORD LEXDEN
House of Lords
DAVID HABERSHON
Emsworth, Hants
"Status" seems wrong to me. That's about whether the guy's membership
payments are up to date or something. "Position" is the word I'd use.
"Position" is better. I had wriiten something less general that "status"
and replaced it with "status" because that seemed better. Most of my
time when composing the message was spent searching through newspapers
both in a pile in my house and online. I spent less time on the precise
wording of the message.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
the Omrud
2017-12-05 15:03:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year. I can't think of
doing so myself. A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
Literally "written", no. But I have typed letters into Word, printed
them, signed them in ink and put them in an envelope with a stamp. Not
a lot, but a few each year. They're mostly related to my mother or on
behalf of my FiL. I wrote one last week to HMRC giving details of the
Power of Attorney which I hold so I can manage Mum's affars. They
specifically asked for a covering letter to be sent with a copy of the PoA.
--
David
Tony Cooper
2017-12-05 15:24:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by the Omrud
Post by Tony Cooper
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year. I can't think of
doing so myself. A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
Literally "written", no. But I have typed letters into Word,
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.

My rules.
Post by the Omrud
printed
them, signed them in ink and put them in an envelope with a stamp. Not
a lot, but a few each year. They're mostly related to my mother or on
behalf of my FiL. I wrote one last week to HMRC giving details of the
Power of Attorney which I hold so I can manage Mum's affars. They
specifically asked for a covering letter to be sent with a copy of the PoA.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Richard Heathfield
2017-12-05 15:32:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by the Omrud
Post by Tony Cooper
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year. I can't think of
doing so myself. A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
Literally "written", no. But I have typed letters into Word,
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.
Several per year.

And it has been several per year since 1981. The advent of the Internet
has vastly decreased the *proportion* of my communications that are sent
by post (because of email, and let's not forget Usenet), but it has not
perceptibly diminished the amount of post I actually send.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
g***@gmail.com
2017-12-05 16:47:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group.
It was once common for job advertisements to require resumes accompanied by a "hand-written application letter", but a local utility company changed this to "an application letter in the applicant's own handwriting" after several new hires showed up almost unable to hold a pen --- their letters had evidently been handwritten ---- by?
occam
2017-12-05 19:02:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.
My rules.
---
Date: 5 Dec 2017

Dear Mr. Cooper

Re: Your rules of letter writing

Please can you clarify whether you consider this message a letter or an
email? If follows your rules of letter writing in that it has a
salutation, this rather brief paragraph, and my signature.

Look forward to hearing from you in due course.

Yours sincerely


/Occam/

Occam Idée Esq.


P.S. Please note that I shall not be sending you a
printed copy of this email.
Tony Cooper
2017-12-05 19:33:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.
My rules.
---
Date: 5 Dec 2017
Dear Mr. Cooper
Re: Your rules of letter writing
Please can you clarify whether you consider this message a letter or an
email? If follows your rules of letter writing in that it has a
salutation, this rather brief paragraph, and my signature.
Look forward to hearing from you in due course.
Yours sincerely
/Occam/
Occam Idée Esq.
P.S. Please note that I shall not be sending you a
printed copy of this email.
One of my grandsons was preparing for a test at school and studying
for it at my house because I'd picked him up from school. His mother
had errands to run. My advice to him - which I will share with you -
is that most important thing is to read *all* of the question and
answer the question in such a way that addresses all of the question.

Please note that question was: "I do wonder how many people here have
written a letter - an actual letter not to a family member - in the
last year. I can't think of doing so myself. A letter, that is,
written on paper and mailed."

The last sentence is of some import here.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Sam Plusnet
2017-12-06 21:00:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.
My rules.
---
Date: 5 Dec 2017
Dear Mr. Cooper
Re: Your rules of letter writing
Please can you clarify whether you consider this message a letter or an
email? If follows your rules of letter writing in that it has a
salutation, this rather brief paragraph, and my signature.
Look forward to hearing from you in due course.
Yours sincerely
/Occam/
Occam Idée Esq.
P.S. Please note that I shall not be sending you a
printed copy of this email.
One of my grandsons was preparing for a test at school and studying
for it at my house because I'd picked him up from school. His mother
had errands to run. My advice to him - which I will share with you -
is that most important thing is to read *all* of the question and
answer the question in such a way that addresses all of the question.
Please note that question was: "I do wonder how many people here have
written a letter - an actual letter not to a family member - in the
last year. I can't think of doing so myself. A letter, that is,
written on paper and mailed."
The last sentence is of some import here.
Hmm.
When I printed out a couple of 'notes' yesterday to insert into
Christmas cards (one to a relative, the other to an old friend) the
output from the printer contained written words. The Christmas cards
were posted the same day.

Does that meet that part of your requirement "written on paper and
mailed" (BrE "posted")?
--
Sam Plusnet
Tony Cooper
2017-12-07 00:39:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.
My rules.
---
Date: 5 Dec 2017
Dear Mr. Cooper
Re: Your rules of letter writing
Please can you clarify whether you consider this message a letter or an
email? If follows your rules of letter writing in that it has a
salutation, this rather brief paragraph, and my signature.
Look forward to hearing from you in due course.
Yours sincerely
/Occam/
Occam Idée Esq.
P.S. Please note that I shall not be sending you a
printed copy of this email.
One of my grandsons was preparing for a test at school and studying
for it at my house because I'd picked him up from school. His mother
had errands to run. My advice to him - which I will share with you -
is that most important thing is to read *all* of the question and
answer the question in such a way that addresses all of the question.
Please note that question was: "I do wonder how many people here have
written a letter - an actual letter not to a family member - in the
last year. I can't think of doing so myself. A letter, that is,
written on paper and mailed."
The last sentence is of some import here.
Hmm.
When I printed out a couple of 'notes' yesterday to insert into
Christmas cards (one to a relative, the other to an old friend) the
output from the printer contained written words. The Christmas cards
were posted the same day.
Does that meet that part of your requirement "written on paper and
mailed" (BrE "posted")?
I've stated my conditions. You have decide if you met them or not and
wrote "letters".

My personal view would be that if the notes were personalized for the
recipient, they meet the bare minimum. If the notes were copy/pasted
comments with only minimal changes to make them seem personalized,
then no.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-07 04:20:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Please note that question was: "I do wonder how many people here have
written a letter - an actual letter not to a family member - in the
last year. I can't think of doing so myself. A letter, that is,
written on paper and mailed."
The last sentence is of some import here.
Hmm.
When I printed out a couple of 'notes' yesterday to insert into
Christmas cards (one to a relative, the other to an old friend) the
output from the printer contained written words. The Christmas cards
were posted the same day.
Does that meet that part of your requirement "written on paper and
mailed" (BrE "posted")?
I've stated my conditions. You have decide if you met them or not and
wrote "letters".
My personal view would be that if the notes were personalized for the
recipient, they meet the bare minimum. If the notes were copy/pasted
comments with only minimal changes to make them seem personalized,
then no.
So the famed institution of the "Christmas letter" isn't a letter?
Tony Cooper
2017-12-07 04:33:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:20:05 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Please note that question was: "I do wonder how many people here have
written a letter - an actual letter not to a family member - in the
last year. I can't think of doing so myself. A letter, that is,
written on paper and mailed."
The last sentence is of some import here.
Hmm.
When I printed out a couple of 'notes' yesterday to insert into
Christmas cards (one to a relative, the other to an old friend) the
output from the printer contained written words. The Christmas cards
were posted the same day.
Does that meet that part of your requirement "written on paper and
mailed" (BrE "posted")?
I've stated my conditions. You have decide if you met them or not and
wrote "letters".
My personal view would be that if the notes were personalized for the
recipient, they meet the bare minimum. If the notes were copy/pasted
comments with only minimal changes to make them seem personalized,
then no.
So the famed institution of the "Christmas letter" isn't a letter?
No, not in my opinion. They are a compilation of family biographical
information liberally dusted with fake news.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Sam Plusnet
2017-12-07 21:32:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.
My rules.
---
Date: 5 Dec 2017
Dear Mr. Cooper
Re: Your rules of letter writing
Please can you clarify whether you consider this message a letter or an
email? If follows your rules of letter writing in that it has a
salutation, this rather brief paragraph, and my signature.
Look forward to hearing from you in due course.
Yours sincerely
/Occam/
Occam Idée Esq.
P.S. Please note that I shall not be sending you a
printed copy of this email.
One of my grandsons was preparing for a test at school and studying
for it at my house because I'd picked him up from school. His mother
had errands to run. My advice to him - which I will share with you -
is that most important thing is to read *all* of the question and
answer the question in such a way that addresses all of the question.
Please note that question was: "I do wonder how many people here have
written a letter - an actual letter not to a family member - in the
last year. I can't think of doing so myself. A letter, that is,
written on paper and mailed."
The last sentence is of some import here.
Hmm.
When I printed out a couple of 'notes' yesterday to insert into
Christmas cards (one to a relative, the other to an old friend) the
output from the printer contained written words. The Christmas cards
were posted the same day.
Does that meet that part of your requirement "written on paper and
mailed" (BrE "posted")?
I've stated my conditions. You have decide if you met them or not and
wrote "letters".
My personal view would be that if the notes were personalized for the
recipient, they meet the bare minimum. If the notes were copy/pasted
comments with only minimal changes to make them seem personalized,
then no.
OK.
The original text was intended for the old friend, but I then took a
copy, deleted that which was inappropriate & then added a few other
things and used that for the relative.
In all, I would guess that 60 to 70% of the text survived intact.

Not a Christmas Letter, nor a gen-u-wine hand-crafted original work of
art. I'm stuck in no-man's land again.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-12-05 19:40:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.
My rules.
---
Date: 5 Dec 2017
Dear Mr. Cooper
Re: Your rules of letter writing
Please can you clarify whether you consider this message a letter or an
email? If follows your rules of letter writing in that it has a
salutation, this rather brief paragraph, and my signature.
Look forward to hearing from you in due course.
Yours sincerely
/Occam/
Occam Idée Esq.
P.S. Please note that I shall not be sending you a
printed copy of this email.
Does an email formatted in the style of a letter become a letter if the
recipient prints it?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
occam
2017-12-05 20:39:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.
My rules.
---
Date: 5 Dec 2017
Dear Mr. Cooper
Re: Your rules of letter writing
Please can you clarify whether you consider this message a letter or an
email? If follows your rules of letter writing in that it has a
salutation, this rather brief paragraph, and my signature.
Look forward to hearing from you in due course.
Yours sincerely
/Occam/
Occam Idée Esq.
P.S. Please note that I shall not be sending you a
printed copy of this email.
Does an email formatted in the style of a letter become a letter if the
recipient prints it?
If he chooses to print the body of the text, without the header, it does.

By normal email I would sign the letter by attaching an image of my
signature where normally the .sig would be. When printed, it looks like
a signature in a fax document. (It is not possible to demonstrate here
in NG posts, as 'text only' prohibits the attachment of images.)
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-05 20:56:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.
My rules.
---
Date: 5 Dec 2017
Dear Mr. Cooper
Re: Your rules of letter writing
Please can you clarify whether you consider this message a letter or an
email? If follows your rules of letter writing in that it has a
salutation, this rather brief paragraph, and my signature.
Look forward to hearing from you in due course.
Yours sincerely
/Occam/
Occam Idée Esq.
P.S. Please note that I shall not be sending you a
printed copy of this email.
A proper letter wouldn't have a "re: " line. And there would be commas after
the "Dear" line and the "Yours" line. And no "Date: " before the date.
g***@gmail.com
2017-12-06 03:43:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
A proper letter wouldn't have a "re: " line.
So twenty billion letters among governments and business worldwide were not proper letters because they had a "re: line"?

BTW, I forbade my students to use the Latin word "re:".

BTW, I also forbade them to use the English word "Subject:" on the grounds of redundancy because what do people imagine the underlined fucking phrase above the text IS, if not the subject of the fucking letter?

You can see I had no time or tolerance for redundancy.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-12-06 12:07:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
A proper letter wouldn't have a "re: " line.
So twenty billion letters among governments and business worldwide were not proper letters because they had a "re: line"?
BTW, I forbade my students to use the Latin word "re:".
BTW, I also forbade them to use the English word "Subject:" on the grounds of redundancy because what do people imagine the underlined fucking phrase above the text IS, if not the subject of the fucking letter?
You can see I had no time or tolerance for redundancy.
Shouldn't that be "dundancy"? <wink>
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
grr
2017-12-06 03:45:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
A proper letter wouldn't have a "re: " line. And there would be commas after
the "Dear" line and the "Yours" line. And no "Date: " before the date.
So twenty billion letters among governments and business worldwide were not proper letters because they had a "re: line"?

BTW, I forbade my students to use the Latin word "re:".

BTW, I also forbade them to use the English word "Subject:" on the grounds of redundancy because what do people imagine the underlined fucking phrase above the text IS, if not the subject of the fucking letter?

You can see I had no time or tolerance for redundancy.
Paul Wolff
2017-12-06 12:26:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
A proper letter wouldn't have a "re: " line. And there would be commas after
the "Dear" line and the "Yours" line. And no "Date: " before the date.
So twenty billion letters among governments and business worldwide were
not proper letters because they had a "re: line"?
BTW, I forbade my students to use the Latin word "re:".
BTW, I also forbade them to use the English word "Subject:" on the
grounds of redundancy because what do people imagine the underlined
fucking phrase above the text IS, if not the subject of the fucking
letter?
You can see I had no time or tolerance for redundancy.
So with neither time nor tolerance for redundancy, why /did/ you post
your message this second time, a minute and a half later, with a line
and a half of previously deleted quoted material restored, none of which
was relevant to your comments?

I hope it was only to check who was paying attention.
--
Paul
g***@gmail.com
2017-12-06 17:12:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Wolff
So with neither time nor tolerance for redundancy, why /did/ you post
your message this second time, a minute and a half later, with a line
and a half of previously deleted quoted material restored, none of which
was relevant to your comments?
I hope it was only to check who was paying attention.
--
I have three e-mail accounts, and two of them seem to swap places when I use usenet -- I wanted to keep just one as my e-mail for alt.english usage.

As for contents, I'm pretty sloppy deleting and pasting. Cheers.
Paul Wolff
2017-12-05 20:00:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by the Omrud
Post by Tony Cooper
I do wonder how many people here have written a letter - an actual
letter not to a family member - in the last year. I can't think of
doing so myself. A letter, that is, written on paper and mailed.
I suspect that the people here most likely to have written a letter
did so writing a letter to a newspaper...what we in the US would call
a "letter to the editor".
Literally "written", no. But I have typed letters into Word,
I consider handwritten, typewritten, or created in word processing and
printed out to be in the "written" group. To be a "letter", it has to
have a salutation, body of text, closing (eg: Yours Truly), and
signature.
My rules.
Post by the Omrud
printed
them, signed them in ink and put them in an envelope with a stamp. Not
a lot, but a few each year. They're mostly related to my mother or on
behalf of my FiL. I wrote one last week to HMRC giving details of the
Power of Attorney which I hold so I can manage Mum's affars. They
specifically asked for a covering letter to be sent with a copy of the PoA.
I write business/legal letters but email them as attachments or upload
them as pdf files, so they don't qualify.

Also short letters to grandchildren on their birthdays, but they're
usually delivered by hand.

However and notwithstanding, I did write quite deliberately a manuscript
letter to my son's new fiancée's parents a couple of months ago, and
posted it. It hasn't been delivered. Of course, as it was sent to
Abroad, I shouldn't be surprised. In retrospect, I should have sent it
by registered post, and then it would/should have been tracked, but that
never occurred to me.

A hand-written letter does rank highly in importance in the right
circumstances. If it isn't treated as a migratory bird as it passes over
Malta, to name but one offending country in that regard, and completes
its journey, I think and hope it would be especially appreciated by the
recipient.

My other letters seem to be mostly complaints, not excluding those about
trains failing to run to time.
--
Paul
Richard Heathfield
2017-12-05 20:37:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On 05/12/17 20:00, Paul Wolff wrote:

<snip>
Post by Paul Wolff
However and notwithstanding, I did write quite deliberately a manuscript
letter to my son's new fiancée's parents a couple of months ago, and
posted it. It hasn't been delivered. Of course, as it was sent to
Abroad, I shouldn't be surprised.
Ah, I think I see your problem right there. It might have been better to
provide an address that was perhaps just a touch more specific.

ObFlandersAndSwann: "You can always try cabling me: MIC FLAN, England."

<snip>
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
charles
2017-12-05 10:03:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful, but
not sincere.
and "Yours truely"

and then there was the man who finished a letter to the Inland Revenue
"You remain my obedient servant"
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
occam
2017-12-05 12:01:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by charles
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful, but
not sincere.
and "Yours truely"
and then there was the man who finished a letter to the Inland Revenue
"You remain my obedient servant"
"You remain, Sir, my obedient servant" is the version I heard. Even if
apocryphal, it is a pleasant notion.
Ramapriya D
2017-12-05 12:13:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by charles
and "Yours truely"
I'm assuming this was inadvertent because I've not yet come across anyone spell truly with an e :)
Post by charles
and then there was the man who finished a letter to the Inland Revenue
"You remain my obedient servant"
I write lots of official letters and only ever use 'Yours sincerely'. 'Yours faithfully' seems canine somehow :)

Ramapriya
Richard Heathfield
2017-12-05 12:27:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ramapriya D
Post by charles
and "Yours truely"
I'm assuming this was inadvertent because I've not yet come across anyone spell truly with an e :)
Post by charles
and then there was the man who finished a letter to the Inland Revenue
"You remain my obedient servant"
I write lots of official letters and only ever use 'Yours sincerely'. 'Yours faithfully' seems canine somehow :)
Traditional usage (at least in the UK) is: "Yours sincerely" if you the
addressee is, or addressees are, named.

Dear Mr Fortescue/blah/Yours sincerely/my sig

But it's "Yours faithfully" if you've had to use an honorific because
the name is unavailable.

Dear Sir or Madam/blah/Yours faithfully/my sig


(Does anyone happen to know /why/?)
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Moylan
2017-12-05 13:21:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Heathfield
Traditional usage (at least in the UK) is: "Yours sincerely" if you the
addressee is, or addressees are, named.
Dear Mr Fortescue/blah/Yours sincerely/my sig
But it's "Yours faithfully" if you've had to use an honorific because
the name is unavailable.
Dear Sir or Madam/blah/Yours faithfully/my sig
(Does anyone happen to know /why/?)
The "why", as I understand it, is

1. You should be faithful to people you know.
2. If you don't know their name, you can at least be sincere.
3. Somewhere along the line, someone got the rule back to front.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Percival P. Cassidy
2017-12-05 19:42:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Ramapriya D
Post by charles
and "Yours truely"
I'm assuming this was inadvertent because I've not yet come across
anyone spell truly with an e :)
Post by charles
and then there was the man who finished a letter to the Inland Revenue
"You remain my obedient servant"
I write lots of official letters and only ever use 'Yours sincerely'.
'Yours faithfully' seems canine somehow :)
Traditional usage (at least in the UK) is: "Yours sincerely" if you the
addressee is, or addressees are, named.
Dear Mr Fortescue/blah/Yours sincerely/my sig
But it's "Yours faithfully" if you've had to use an honorific because
the name is unavailable.
Dear Sir or Madam/blah/Yours faithfully/my sig
(Does anyone happen to know /why/?)
What happened to "Yours truly," which I remember from my UK youth?

Perce
Richard Heathfield
2017-12-05 19:58:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Ramapriya D
Post by charles
and "Yours truely"
I'm assuming this was inadvertent because I've not yet come across
anyone spell truly with an e :)
Post by charles
and then there was the man who finished a letter to the Inland Revenue
"You remain my obedient servant"
I write lots of official letters and only ever use 'Yours sincerely'.
'Yours faithfully' seems canine somehow :)
Traditional usage (at least in the UK) is: "Yours sincerely" if you
the addressee is, or addressees are, named.
Dear Mr Fortescue/blah/Yours sincerely/my sig
But it's "Yours faithfully" if you've had to use an honorific because
the name is unavailable.
Dear Sir or Madam/blah/Yours faithfully/my sig
(Does anyone happen to know /why/?)
What happened to "Yours truly," which I remember from my UK youth?
That tends to be reserved for less formal letters, typically to
Friends-And-Relations (with my apologies to A A Milne).
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
RH Draney
2017-12-05 13:03:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by charles
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful, but
not sincere.
and "Yours truely"
and then there was the man who finished a letter to the Inland Revenue
"You remain my obedient servant"
I once closed a letter with "Hoping this finds you"....r
Mack A. Damia
2017-12-05 16:32:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by charles
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
I notice that a difference between UK and North American correspondence
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful, but
not sincere.
and "Yours truely"
and then there was the man who finished a letter to the Inland Revenue
"You remain my obedient servant"
I once closed a letter with "Hoping this finds you"....r
"It's been swell, but the swelling's gone down."
--
Bucky Beaver, Pirate Fighter
g***@gmail.com
2017-12-05 16:42:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
I once closed a letter with "Hoping this finds you"....
My pet peeve is the phrase "Please find enclosed ----" as though it's a tricky treasure hunt.
occam
2017-12-06 16:07:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by RH Draney
I once closed a letter with "Hoping this finds you"....
My pet peeve is the phrase "Please find enclosed ----" as though it's a tricky treasure hunt.
I do not care to remember the number of times I have replied "You forgot
to include the attachment..." . Which means that phrase plays a useful
role indicating intent, if not of oncoming Alzheimer's.
Paul Wolff
2017-12-05 20:27:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by charles
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
I used to do that for my French business associate. With the right
accent(s), natch. (Actually, not with "cher". Far too familiar.)
Post by charles
Post by g***@gmail.com
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful. Britons are faithful, but
not sincere.
and "Yours truely"
and then there was the man who finished a letter to the Inland Revenue
"You remain my obedient servant"
Excellent.

"Yours truly" was the norm for many letters my then employer received
from American patent attorneys umpteen years ago. The corresponding
salutation was "Gentlemen:". (Or my memory deceives me. It's apt to do
that. But hey, at least I still /have/ a memory.)

The classic English letter closing was "I remain, Sir, yr most humble
and obt servant, /Bloggins' signature/.
--
Paul
Jerry Friedman
2017-12-05 21:49:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
...
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by charles
and then there was the man who finished a letter to the Inland Revenue
"You remain my obedient servant"
Excellent.
...

At the end of a letter from a Canadian government department, demanding
a payment of 76 cents:

This Department has received a card from you bearing Christmas
Greetings. We are returning the card which is the wrong size for our
files, and enclose herewith proper forms for the expression of this wish,
to be completed in triplicate, and returned at once.

Yours, but not as much as you are ours,

Haubergeon Hydra

--Robertson Davies, /Marchbanks' Almanac/
--
Jerry Friedman
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
2017-12-05 14:45:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
The French have been aligned with homosexuality since nation-states existed.
The earliest indicatives of such appear within various texts surrounding the Arthurian legends.
Ken Blake
2017-12-05 17:49:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful.
Britons are faithful, but not sincere.
It's been many years since I've mailed a letter (I always use e-mail
these days) but when I did I always used the closing that as far as I
know was standard in the US: "Yours truly" (unless it was to my wife
or a close family member, in which case the closing was "Love").

And with e-mail, I never use any closing, just m
Richard Yates
2017-12-07 03:29:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@gmail.com
Veuillez agreer, cher monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distingues.
The French know how to lay it on with a trowel :-)
Yours sincerely (N.America)
and
Yours faithfully (UK)
North Americans are sincere, but not faithful.
Britons are faithful, but not sincere.
Here is how to do it right:

"I shall almost transgress the bounds of courtesy if I burden Your
Honor any further, and I therefore hasten to close, remaining with
most devoted respect my whole life long Your Honor's most obediant and
devoted servant

JOH. SEBAST. BACH"
Loading...