Discussion:
like your late father
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a***@gmail.com
2018-07-10 07:55:51 UTC
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1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.


Are both grammatical?

Are they idiomatic?


Gratefully,
Navi
Harrison Hill
2018-07-10 10:24:31 UTC
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On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 08:55:54 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> 1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
> 2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
>
>
> Are both grammatical?
>
> Are they idiomatic?

In the formal (and unlikely) setting that would prompt such
sentences to be uttered, they are idiomatic - and they are certainly
grammatical.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-10 12:16:47 UTC
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On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 3:55:54 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:

> 1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
> 2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
>
>
> Are both grammatical?

What could possibly not be grammatical?

> Are they idiomatic?

Why not? (1) of course is ambiguous, (2) is not.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-23 13:03:33 UTC
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On 2018-07-10 14:16:47 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels" <***@verizon.net> said:

> On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 3:55:54 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> 1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
>> 2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
>>
>>
>> Are both grammatical?
>
> What could possibly not be grammatical?
>
>> Are they idiomatic?
>
> Why not? (1) of course is ambiguous, (2) is not.

As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely
(I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus
"feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".


--
athel
the Omrud
2018-07-23 15:07:18 UTC
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On 23/07/2018 14:03, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a rationale
> why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely (I believe)
> among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus "feu votre
> père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".

That's a new one on me.

This site says that the adjective goes where we expect, but the word is
acting as an adverb when placed before the posessive.

http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/dictionary/feu.html

I can't decide whether that makes sense or not.

--
David
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-23 15:50:24 UTC
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On Monday, 23 July 2018 16:07:21 UTC+1, the Omrud wrote:
> On 23/07/2018 14:03, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> > As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a rationale
> > why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely (I believe)
> > among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus "feu votre
> > père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".
>
> That's a new one on me.
>
> This site says that the adjective goes where we expect, but the word is
> acting as an adverb when placed before the posessive.
>
> http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/dictionary/feu.html
>
> I can't decide whether that makes sense or not.
>

I think it does. It's similar to the way 'deceased' is used in
English.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-23 16:18:17 UTC
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On 2018-07-23 15:50:24 +0000, Madrigal Gurneyhalt said:

> On Monday, 23 July 2018 16:07:21 UTC+1, the Omrud wrote:
>> On 23/07/2018 14:03, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>>> As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
>>> rationale> > why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly.
>>> Uniquely (I believe)> > among French adjectives, it precedes the
>>> possessive, thus "feu votre> > père", not "votre feu père" or "votre
>>> père feu".
>>
>> That's a new one on me.
>>
>> This site says that the adjective goes where we expect, but the word
>> is> acting as an adverb when placed before the posessive.
>>
>> http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/dictionary/feu.html
>>
>> I can't decide whether that makes sense or not.
>>
>
> I think it does. It's similar to the way 'deceased' is used in
> English.

Really? "Deceased your father*"?


--
athel
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-23 16:22:31 UTC
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On Monday, 23 July 2018 17:18:10 UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-07-23 15:50:24 +0000, Madrigal Gurneyhalt said:
>
> > On Monday, 23 July 2018 16:07:21 UTC+1, the Omrud wrote:
> >> On 23/07/2018 14:03, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>
> >>> As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
> >>> rationale> > why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly.
> >>> Uniquely (I believe)> > among French adjectives, it precedes the
> >>> possessive, thus "feu votre> > père", not "votre feu père" or "votre
> >>> père feu".
> >>
> >> That's a new one on me.
> >>
> >> This site says that the adjective goes where we expect, but the word
> >> is> acting as an adverb when placed before the posessive.
> >>
> >> http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/dictionary/feu.html
> >>
> >> I can't decide whether that makes sense or not.
> >>
> >
> > I think it does. It's similar to the way 'deceased' is used in
> > English.
>
> Really? "Deceased your father*"?
>
>

I said similar, not identical!
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-23 16:38:25 UTC
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On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:01:40 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-07-10 14:16:47 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels" <***@verizon.net> said:
> > On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 3:55:54 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:

> >> 1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
> >> 2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
> >> Are both grammatical?
> > What could possibly not be grammatical?
> >> Are they idiomatic?
> > Why not? (1) of course is ambiguous, (2) is not.
>
> As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
> rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely
> (I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus
> "feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".

I remember learning that a handful of adjectives have a different meaning
if they precede their noun, but I don't remember what any of them are.
Lanarcam
2018-07-23 16:40:43 UTC
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Le 23/07/2018 à 18:38, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:01:40 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-07-10 14:16:47 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels" <***@verizon.net> said:
>>> On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 3:55:54 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>> 1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
>>>> 2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
>>>> Are both grammatical?
>>> What could possibly not be grammatical?
>>>> Are they idiomatic?
>>> Why not? (1) of course is ambiguous, (2) is not.
>>
>> As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
>> rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely
>> (I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus
>> "feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".
>
> I remember learning that a handful of adjectives have a different meaning
> if they precede their noun, but I don't remember what any of them are.
>
"Grand homme", "homme grand" for instance.
the Omrud
2018-07-23 17:59:36 UTC
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On 23/07/2018 17:40, Lanarcam wrote:
> Le 23/07/2018 à 18:38, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:01:40 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2018-07-10 14:16:47 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels"
>>> <***@verizon.net> said:
>>>> On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 3:55:54 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> 1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
>>>>> 2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to
>>>>> us.
>>>>> Are both grammatical?
>>>> What could possibly not be grammatical?
>>>>> Are they idiomatic?
>>>> Why not? (1) of course is ambiguous, (2) is not.
>>>
>>> As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
>>> rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely
>>> (I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus
>>> "feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".
>>
>> I remember learning that a handful of adjectives have a different meaning
>> if they precede their noun, but I don't remember what any of them are.
>>
> "Grand homme", "homme grand" for instance.

Also "ancien", which sometimes throws me for a moment.

--
David
Peter Moylan
2018-07-23 23:39:53 UTC
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On 24/07/18 03:59, the Omrud wrote:
> On 23/07/2018 17:40, Lanarcam wrote:
>> Le 23/07/2018 à 18:38, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>> On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:01:40 AM UTC-4, Athel
>>> Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>>>> As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
>>>> rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly.
>>>> Uniquely (I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the
>>>> possessive, thus "feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or
>>>> "votre père feu".
>>>
>>> I remember learning that a handful of adjectives have a different
>>> meaning if they precede their noun, but I don't remember what
>>> any of them are.
>>>
>> "Grand homme", "homme grand" for instance.
>
> Also "ancien", which sometimes throws me for a moment.

As I recall it, such examples generally involve a few common adjectives.
Athel's example is a horse of a different colour, which contradicts the
known fact that all horses have the same colour.

The idea that "feu" can function as an adverb in some situations, which
of course allows it to move to a different part of the sentence, makes
sense to me. After all, English has plenty of examples of words which
can be adjectives in some situations and adverbs in others.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-24 02:56:32 UTC
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On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 7:39:59 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 24/07/18 03:59, the Omrud wrote:
> > On 23/07/2018 17:40, Lanarcam wrote:
> >> Le 23/07/2018 à 18:38, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> >>> On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:01:40 AM UTC-4, Athel
> >>> Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> >>>> As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
> >>>> rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly.
> >>>> Uniquely (I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the
> >>>> possessive, thus "feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or
> >>>> "votre père feu".
> >>>
> >>> I remember learning that a handful of adjectives have a different
> >>> meaning if they precede their noun, but I don't remember what
> >>> any of them are.
> >>>
> >> "Grand homme", "homme grand" for instance.
> >
> > Also "ancien", which sometimes throws me for a moment.
>
> As I recall it, such examples generally involve a few common adjectives.
> Athel's example is a horse of a different colour, which contradicts the
> known fact that all horses have the same colour.
>
> The idea that "feu" can function as an adverb in some situations, which
> of course allows it to move to a different part of the sentence, makes
> sense to me. After all, English has plenty of examples of words which
> can be adjectives in some situations and adverbs in others.

(Which helps explain why the Greek-based category "adverb" isn't a useful
term in analyzing English grammar; the category might as well be called
"miscellaneous." "Adverbs" are better considered to include three or four
different "parts of speech" in English.)
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