Surnames with alternative spellings

Post by Ulrich Maier
Hello, in German there are some very frequent surnames that occur with
alternative spellings. The best known example is Maier which appears
also as Meier, Mayer, Meyer, Mayr etc., all pronounced identically.
Do such spelling variants also exist for frequent English names?
(Actually I found some variants, but none of them occurs really frequently.)

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).

Johnston, Johnstone.

Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.
--

Ross

2018-06-11 10:50:09 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

Post by bert
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.
--

soup

2018-06-11 11:11:53 UTC

Post by bert
Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

Can be. Although I admit there should probably be a "sometimes" or an
"if" in there somewhere.

That's the trouble with names. A LOT (not all but a lot) of the time it
is pronounced differently, spelt differently etc, to what you expect.
Hate it when the wife says "how do you spell <name>? My stock
answer is "it's a name there is probably no right way or wrong way to
spell it".

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-06-11 11:20:51 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

More recisely, the p in Thomson is pronounced but not written

Post by bert
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).

I'm more inclined to say "no it's not" for that one.

Post by bert
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.
--

--
athel

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-06-11 13:22:23 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

More recisely, the p in Thomson is pronounced but not written

and the p in precisely is both written (usually) and pronounced.

Post by bert
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).

I'm more inclined to say "no it's not" for that one.

Post by bert
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.
--

--
athel

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

2018-06-11 18:25:35 UTC

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 12:20:51 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

More recisely, the p in Thomson is pronounced but not written

Rubbish. I've never heard someone pronounce a P which isn't in the name.

Post by bert
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).

I'm more inclined to say "no it's not" for that one.

Post by bert
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.
--

Ross

2018-06-11 21:41:48 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

More recisely, the p in Thomson is pronounced but not written

Recisely.

Post by bert
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).

I'm more inclined to say "no it's not" for that one.

Agree.

Post by bert
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.
--

--
athel

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-06-12 06:11:33 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

More recisely, the p in Thomson is pronounced but not written

Recisely.

Post by bert
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).

I'm more inclined to say "no it's not" for that one.

Agree.

Thanks, but Mr Knife doesn't agree. Whom should we believe, a
recognized linguistic expert, or someone who doesn't seem to know much
about anything?

Post by bert
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.
--

--
athel

Ian Jackson

2018-06-11 13:10:13 UTC

Post by bert
Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

In 'bathing', the 'p' is ALWAYS silent!

--
Ian

occam

2018-06-11 15:20:41 UTC

Post by bert
Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

In 'bathing', the 'p' is ALWAYS silent!

---but visible and yellow too.

HVS

2018-06-11 15:22:45 UTC

Post by bert
Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

In 'bathing', the 'p' is ALWAYS silent!

---but visible and yellow too.

"Johnny, I've told you not to pee in the swimming pool."
"But Dad - *everyone* pees in the swimming pool."
"Not from the diving board, they don't."

(Ah, to be 10 years old and hearing old jokes for the first time...)

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed

Peter Moylan

2018-06-12 00:48:51 UTC

Post by bert
Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

In 'bathing', the 'p' is ALWAYS silent!

---but visible and yellow too.

There is a persistent story that there was once a product that could be
put into a swimming pool, and produced a great purple cloud in contact
with urine. According to the version I heard, it had to be withdrawn
because pool owners were losing friends.

I now see that it's a myth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine-indicator_dye

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

RH Draney

2018-06-12 02:34:39 UTC

Post by bert
Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

No it's not!

In 'bathing', the 'p' is ALWAYS silent!

Mr Shean: "I love that 'hampster dance' website!"
Mr Gallagher: "There's no P in 'hamster'."
Mr Shean: "Maybe you're just not squeezing them hard enough."

....r

Peter Young

2018-06-11 18:09:39 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

It is in "bath".

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Paul Wolff

2018-06-11 11:00:10 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.

Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

--
Paul Wolff

CDB

2018-06-11 13:10:50 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

When do you experience the double-o listed in your oral instructions?

Paul Wolff

2018-06-11 15:31:13 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

When do you experience the double-o listed in your oral instructions?

That sequence represents the confusion at the receiving end. The hearer
is helplessly drawn into a vortex of duplicity.

--
Paul

Tony Cooper

2018-06-11 15:38:10 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

When do you experience the double-o listed in your oral instructions?

When he claims Virginia as a distant cousin.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

occam

2018-06-11 15:25:57 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

That spells "Uuoollff" to me. Perhaps it should to be added to your list
of variations.

I have a particularly odd combination of letters in my surname. In my
youth I used to collect all envelopes with the wrong spellings. Quite a
collection, I will see if I still have them somewhere.

John Varela

2018-06-11 17:11:40 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

That spells "Uuoollff" to me. Perhaps it should to be added to your list
of variations.
I have a particularly odd combination of letters in my surname. In my
youth I used to collect all envelopes with the wrong spellings. Quite a
collection, I will see if I still have them somewhere.

WIWAL my name was often misspelled "Valera". I attributed it to
familiarity with the name of an Irish politician and, indeed, the
error had pretty much disappeared in the late 20th century as his
fame receded. But, more recently, my grandchildren are experiencing
this nuisance. I have no idea what has revived the error.

--
John Varela

occam

2018-06-11 19:12:04 UTC

Post by John Varela

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

That spells "Uuoollff" to me. Perhaps it should to be added to your list
of variations.
I have a particularly odd combination of letters in my surname. In my
youth I used to collect all envelopes with the wrong spellings. Quite a
collection, I will see if I still have them somewhere.

Increased incidence of texting syndrome with a touch of dyslexia?

Quinn C

2018-06-11 18:49:47 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

That spells "Uuoollff" to me. Perhaps it should to be added to your list
of variations.

Then how do you sound out a "w"?

--
The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable
-- Paul Broca
... who never questioned that men are more intelligent than women

occam

2018-06-11 19:17:54 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

That spells "Uuoollff" to me. Perhaps it should to be added to your list
of variations.

Then how do you sound out a "w"?

I don't. My name does not include the letter. However I have often
wondered what would happen when spelling out 'vacuum' over the phone,
whether at the other end it would be jotted down as 'vacwm'.

Quinn C

2018-06-11 19:25:48 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

That spells "Uuoollff" to me. Perhaps it should to be added to your list
of variations.

Then how do you sound out a "w"?

I don't. My name does not include the letter.

And you never spell out any other words, ever?

Post by occam
However I have often
wondered what would happen when spelling out 'vacuum' over the phone,
whether at the other end it would be jotted down as 'vacwm'.

"Often"? You must have a quiet life!

--
Microsoft designed a user-friendly car:
instead of the oil, alternator, gas and engine
warning lights it has just one: "General Car Fault"

bill van

2018-06-11 19:29:40 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions. Double-u, double-o, double-ell, double-eff - I haven't
experienced double-e on the end yet.

That spells "Uuoollff" to me. Perhaps it should to be added to your list
of variations.

Then how do you sound out a "w"?

I don't. My name does not include the letter. However I have often
wondered what would happen when spelling out 'vacuum' over the phone,
whether at the other end it would be jotted down as 'vacwm'.

If it was, it would your fault for saying "double-u" rather than "u-u".

bill

RH Draney

2018-06-11 22:43:11 UTC

Post by Quinn C

Post by occam
That spells "Uuoollff" to me. Perhaps it should to be added to your list
of variations.

Then how do you sound out a "w"?

I don't. My name does not include the letter. However I have often
wondered what would happen when spelling out 'vacuum' over the phone,
whether at the other end it would be jotted down as 'vacwm'.

I've got a joke book from the 1930s that belonged to my grandmother, and
there's a story in there about some guy trying to take down a name that
the owner insists on spelling out unintelligibly instead of simply
pronouncing it....

At the end, the other fellow finally condescends to pronounce the name
first: "My name is Ottiwell Wood;
oh-double-tee-eye-double-you-ee-double-ell-double-you-double-oh-dee"....

I was partially inspired by this to suggest that my parents give out
their phone number as a rapidfire "eight-ninety-ninety-eighty-nine"
instead of "890-9089" (don't bother trying to call it; it was long ago
returned to the pool of available numbers)....r

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-12 03:00:02 UTC

Post by RH Draney
I was partially inspired by this to suggest that my parents give out
their phone number as a rapidfire "eight-ninety-ninety-eighty-nine"
instead of "890-9089" (don't bother trying to call it; it was long ago
returned to the pool of available numbers)....r

You were a Car Talk fan?

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-06-12 06:20:09 UTC

Post by Quinn C
[ … ]
Then how do you sound out a "w"?

I don't. My name does not include the letter. However I have often
wondered what would happen when spelling out 'vacuum' over the phone,
whether at the other end it would be jotted down as 'vacwm'.

It might if you were dictating it in Wales. Otherwise probably not.

--
athel

Garrett Wollman

2018-06-11 17:47:33 UTC

Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles that
people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear oral
instructions.

Maybe I don't count because the name is German in origin, but:

Wollman, Wolman, Wollmann, Wolmann, Wallman

The last one probably seems odd to those of you who don't have the
father-bother merger (or have never seen my mother's handwriting).
The third form is the original German orthography AIUI.

-GAWollman
(who is rather more French and Polish than German in ancestry, but
three generations of patrilineal naming make no respect for the
majority vote)

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

Stefan+ (Stefan Froehlich)

2018-06-11 20:43:08 UTC

Post by Paul Wolff
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles
that people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my
clear oral instructions.

Wollman, Wolman, Wollmann, Wolmann, Wallman

"Wolf" is German in origin as well, and at least "Wolf" and "Wolff"
are common notations. You'll see no double-o here though.

Post by Garrett Wollman
The third form is the original German orthography AIUI.

The original form is "Wollmann", meaning something like "the man
with the wool".

Bye,
Stefan

--
http://kontaktinser.at/ - die kostenlose Kontaktboerse fuer Oesterreich
Offizieller Erstbesucher(TM) von mmeike

Geht nicht!? Aber, aber - es gibt doch Stefan!
(Sloganizer)

Garrett Wollman

2018-06-12 01:25:57 UTC

Post by Paul Wolff
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles
that people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my
clear oral instructions.

Wollman, Wolman, Wollmann, Wolmann, Wallman

"Wolf" is German in origin as well, and at least "Wolf" and "Wolff"
are common notations. You'll see no double-o here though.

Oh yes, I forgot, I do see "Woolman" sometimes, too.

-GAWollman

RH Draney

2018-06-12 02:35:52 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Wollman, Wolman, Wollmann, Wolmann, Wallman

"Wolf" is German in origin as well, and at least "Wolf" and "Wolff"
are common notations. You'll see no double-o here though.

Oh yes, I forgot, I do see "Woolman" sometimes, too.

Created by Stan Lee, this unsuccessful superhero was bitten by a
radioactive sheep....r

Garrett Wollman

2018-06-12 02:57:45 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Wollman, Wolman, Wollmann, Wolmann, Wallman

"Wolf" is German in origin as well, and at least "Wolf" and "Wolff"
are common notations. You'll see no double-o here though.

Oh yes, I forgot, I do see "Woolman" sometimes, too.

Created by Stan Lee, this unsuccessful superhero was bitten by a
radioactive sheep....r

In all seriousness, I'm not sure whether that spelling is an
intentional calque of the German or if it arose by mis-transcription
at some point along the line.

-GAWollman

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-06-12 06:16:41 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Wollman, Wolman, Wollmann, Wolmann, Wallman

"Wolf" is German in origin as well, and at least "Wolf" and "Wolff"
are common notations. You'll see no double-o here though.

Oh yes, I forgot, I do see "Woolman" sometimes, too.

Created by Stan Lee, this unsuccessful superhero was bitten by a
radioactive sheep....r

Did anyone mention Lee/Leigh? Lee is often Chinese, but not
necessarily: I knew a Lee once who was straightforwardly English.

--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-12 11:43:09 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Wollman, Wolman, Wollmann, Wolmann, Wallman

"Wolf" is German in origin as well, and at least "Wolf" and "Wolff"
are common notations. You'll see no double-o here though.

Oh yes, I forgot, I do see "Woolman" sometimes, too.

Created by Stan Lee, this unsuccessful superhero was bitten by a
radioactive sheep....r

Did anyone mention Lee/Leigh? Lee is often Chinese, but not
necessarily: I knew a Lee once who was straightforwardly English.

There are an awful lot of non-Chinese Lees Over Here. I'd expect the
Chinese ones to be Li.

Peter Moylan

2018-06-12 01:01:24 UTC

Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Feeble.
Wolff, Wolffe, Wolf, Wolfe, Woolf, Woolfe, plus all the muddles
that people confuse themselves with when trying to follow my clear
oral instructions.

Wollman, Wolman, Wollmann, Wolmann, Wallman

Gaelic names have generated multiple versions when anglicised. My own
ancestral name of Ó Maoláin has turned into Moylan, Mullin, Mullins,
Mullen, Milan, and a variety of others. You can find the same with many
people with Scottish or Irish ancestry.

A lot of English names have come from French, sometimes with subsequent
distortions. Beauchamp becomes Beecham, that sort of thing.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Richard Tobin

2018-06-11 11:52:37 UTC

Post by bert
Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

Dupont, Dupond.

-- Richard

J. J. Lodder

2018-06-12 07:43:09 UTC

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by bert
Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).

Dupont, Dupond.

And of course Les Dupondt,
which seems to be too hard to find an equivalent translation for.
The Dutch translator failed to, (Jansen en Janssen)

Jan

Peter Young

2018-06-11 18:10:17 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Young, Younge.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-11 19:46:46 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Young, Younge.

The big street in Toronto is Yonge.

Peter Young

2018-06-11 20:35:19 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Young, Younge.

The big street in Toronto is Yonge.

Yes, I knew that, but misspelt it.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-11 20:51:52 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Young, Younge.

The big street in Toronto is Yonge.

Yes, I knew that, but misspelt it.

Aww, I thought "Younge" was another, nicely deceptive, variant.

Peter Young

2018-06-11 21:31:46 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Young, Younge.

The big street in Toronto is Yonge.

Yes, I knew that, but misspelt it.

Aww, I thought "Younge" was another, nicely deceptive, variant.

It is. My local butcher sometime spells it like that.

https://www.waghornesbutchers.co.uk/

No commercial interest, just a satisfied customer. Well worth visiting if
you're in Prestbury.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-06-12 06:17:49 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Young, Younge.

Yonge

Post by Peter Young
Peter.

--
athel

occam

2018-06-12 07:00:12 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Young, Younge.

Yonge

Jung, Jong.

J. J. Lodder

2018-06-12 07:43:09 UTC

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Young, Younge.

Yonge

Jung, Jong.

Usually with De, in Dutch,
De Jong, De Jongh, De Jonge,
and also De Jongere,

Jan

Peter Moylan

2018-06-12 11:40:30 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder

Thomson, Thompson (the 'p' is silent).
Johnson, Johnston (if the 't' is silent).
Johnston, Johnstone.
Grey, Gray. White, Whyte. Clark, Clarke, Clerk.

Young, Younge.

Yonge

Jung, Jong.

Usually with De, in Dutch,
De Jong, De Jongh, De Jonge,
and also De Jongere,

But no De Jongste?

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-06-11 11:19:06 UTC

Foulkes/ffoulkes, and others on the same pattern, like French/ffrench
and Forde/fforde

This last reminds me that without pretentious spelling we have Ford/Forde

Other pretentious ones:

Cholmondeley/Cholmeley ['tʃʌmlɪ]
Featherstonehaugh/Fanshaw/Fanshawe

Windsor/Winzor
Clark/Clarke
Brown/Browne
Green/Greene
Brook/Brooke
Shaw/Shawe/Shore (this last only for non-rhotic speakers)

and many others.

--
athel

occam

2018-06-11 15:32:48 UTC

Foulkes/ffoulkes, and others on the same pattern, like French/ffrench
and Forde/fforde
This last reminds me that without pretentious spelling we have Ford/Forde
Cholmondeley/Cholmeley ['tʃʌmlɪ]
Featherstonehaugh/Fanshaw/Fanshawe

Ramsbotham/Ramsbottom/Ewes'ars

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Windsor/Winzor
Clark/Clarke
Brown/Browne
Green/Greene
Brook/Brooke
Shaw/Shawe/Shore (this last only for non-rhotic speakers)
and many others.

John Varela

2018-06-11 17:13:43 UTC

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 11:19:06 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Foulkes/ffoulkes,

Also Fowlkes.

Smith/Smyth/Smythe.

--
John Varela

Peter Young

2018-06-11 18:13:39 UTC

Post by John Varela
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 11:19:06 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Foulkes/ffoulkes,

Also Fowlkes.
Smith/Smyth/Smythe.

And for P G Wodehouse, Psmith. Another silent "p".

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-11 11:51:01 UTC

Stephens, Stevens

Jerry Friedman

2018-06-11 12:37:05 UTC

Friedman, Freedman, Freidman. Of course, the name is not of English
origin, but it's not all that uncommon in the biggest English-speaking
country.

The same kind of thing happens with names of many other origins. Li and
Lee, Abdullah and Abdulla, Kapur and Kapoor. I think the most common
systematic variations are Mc- and Mac-, and -ski and -sky.

--
Jerry Friedman

John Varela

2018-06-11 17:15:13 UTC

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 12:37:05 UTC, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Friedman, Freedman, Freidman. Of course, the name is not of English
origin, but it's not all that uncommon in the biggest English-speaking
country.
The same kind of thing happens with names of many other origins. Li and
Lee, Abdullah and Abdulla, Kapur and Kapoor. I think the most common
systematic variations are Mc- and Mac-, and -ski and -sky.

There are also multiple ways to spell Mohammed. Not surprising,
when the name has to be converted into a different alphabet.

--
John Varela

Madhu

2018-06-12 01:54:25 UTC

Post by John Varela
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 12:37:05 UTC, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
The same kind of thing happens with names of many other origins. Li
and Lee, Abdullah and Abdulla, Kapur and Kapoor. I think the most
common systematic variations are Mc- and Mac-, and -ski and -sky.

There are also multiple ways to spell Mohammed. Not surprising,
when the name has to be converted into a different alphabet.

On the other side of the coin (which is not what the original poster
asked) we have Maccabe and Maccabe

One the Hebrew hammer and the other a Mc- variant, McCabe.

When someone writes it as Maccabe without capitalization, and appears to
be more Jewish than Scottish or Irish, how should you pronounce it?

Richard Tobin

2018-06-12 09:41:24 UTC

Post by Madhu
On the other side of the coin (which is not what the original poster
asked) we have Maccabe and Maccabe
One the Hebrew hammer and the other a Mc- variant, McCabe.

I've never seen the Jewish leader without "-ee" (or "-eus").

-- Richard

Garrett Wollman

2018-06-11 18:03:13 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
The same kind of thing happens with names of many other origins. Li and
Lee, Abdullah and Abdulla, Kapur and Kapoor. I think the most common
systematic variations are Mc- and Mac-, and -ski and -sky.

Which makes me think about Slavic gendered surnames. In the past, a
woman with a feminine surname who emigrated to the US would likely
have married a man with a masculine (or non-gendered, or non-Slavic)
surname and would be recorded under his name, likewise any issue. But
those assumptions wouldn't apply if an Alimovna, Winalska, or Ledecka
moved to the US today. Say a lesbian couple leaves Russia because of
Putin's anti-gay laws and immigrates to an English-speaking country,
and they have a son: what family name do they use? (There ought to be
some examples of this now.) If you're a transgender Pole or enby
Slovak, do the authorities make it possible to change the gender
marking on your name?

-GAWollman

Peter Moylan

2018-06-12 04:36:48 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Which makes me think about Slavic gendered surnames. In the past, a
woman with a feminine surname who emigrated to the US would likely
have married a man with a masculine (or non-gendered, or non-Slavic)
surname and would be recorded under his name, likewise any issue.
But those assumptions wouldn't apply if an Alimovna, Winalska, or
Ledecka moved to the US today. Say a lesbian couple leaves Russia
because of Putin's anti-gay laws and immigrates to an
English-speaking country, and they have a son: what family name do
they use? (There ought to be some examples of this now.) If you're
a transgender Pole or enby Slovak, do the authorities make it
possible to change the gender marking on your name?

Are there any non-Slavic surnames that are declined for gender? I don't
recall meeting any. Many languages, including English, have some
personal names that come in masculine and feminine variants, but
surnames are usually invariable.

As a postgraduate student I made a lot of use of a textbook by Fadeev
and Fadeeva. At the time I didn't realise that the similar names meant
that the authors were husband and wife.

Also as a student I once had to translate a passage from a book by
Tolstovo, a Russian author I'd never heard of. It took a while to click
that the name was just the genitive form of the name of a well-known author.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

RH Draney

2018-06-11 12:45:14 UTC

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro, Louis/Lewis, and two from my own family tree:
Moncrief/Moncrieff and Lincecomb/Linthicum....r

Ulrich Maier

2018-06-11 13:33:19 UTC

Post by RH Draney
The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...

Precisely this is the background of my question :-)

Ulrich

Ken Blake

2018-06-11 14:52:24 UTC

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

And I never realized that "Tolliver" was a different spelling of the
same name.

Dingbat

2018-06-11 15:28:23 UTC

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."
And I never realized that "Tolliver" was a different spelling of the
same name.

Maggie Tulliver in The Mill on the Floss
https://www.shmoop.com/mill-on-the-floss/maggie-tulliver.html

Tony Cooper

2018-06-11 15:52:52 UTC

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

Rang a bell with me. George Taliaferro was football player in Indiana
in the 1940s. He was a star in high school in Gary IN, and went on to
be a triple-threat (he played multiple positions) at Indiana
University.

He was the first African American drafted by the NFL* and is enshrined
in the NFL Hall of Fame. After retiring from football, he returned
to I.U. to implement affirmative action programs. A familiar name to
many Hoosiers.

*Drafted by the Chicago Bears, but never played for Da Bears. He
opted to play for the Los Angeles Dons in the All-America Football
Conference.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Cheryl

2018-06-11 16:32:20 UTC

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

Rang a bell with me. George Taliaferro was football player in Indiana
in the 1940s. He was a star in high school in Gary IN, and went on to
be a triple-threat (he played multiple positions) at Indiana
University.
He was the first African American drafted by the NFL* and is enshrined
in the NFL Hall of Fame. After retiring from football, he returned
to I.U. to implement affirmative action programs. A familiar name to
many Hoosiers.
*Drafted by the Chicago Bears, but never played for Da Bears. He
opted to play for the Los Angeles Dons in the All-America Football
Conference.

Isn't the surname "Cowper" pronounced "Cooper"? I pronounced it "Cowper"
for years but then encountered some kind of audio or video mention of
one of the famous historical Cowpers, and it wasn't pronounced the way
it was spelled at all.

Of course, that shouldn't surprise me - it is in the English language.

--
Cheryl

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-11 16:41:35 UTC

Post by RH Draney
The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

Isn't the surname "Cowper" pronounced "Cooper"? I pronounced it "Cowper"
for years but then encountered some kind of audio or video mention of
one of the famous historical Cowpers, and it wasn't pronounced the way
it was spelled at all.
Of course, that shouldn't surprise me - it is in the English language.

I've read or heard that "Cromwell" is [krUm.l] (sort of like "croomel")
and "Boleyn" is [bUl.n] (like "bullin"). (The period marks the syllable break, a useful
way of indicating the syllabic l and n.)

Peter Young

2018-06-11 18:15:59 UTC

Post by RH Draney
The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

Isn't the surname "Cowper" pronounced "Cooper"? I pronounced it "Cowper"
for years but then encountered some kind of audio or video mention of
one of the famous historical Cowpers, and it wasn't pronounced the way
it was spelled at all.
Of course, that shouldn't surprise me - it is in the English language.

In Bill of Stratford's Henry VIII, Anne Boleyn is spelled "Bullen".

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-11 19:44:58 UTC

Post by RH Draney
The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

Isn't the surname "Cowper" pronounced "Cooper"? I pronounced it "Cowper"
for years but then encountered some kind of audio or video mention of
one of the famous historical Cowpers, and it wasn't pronounced the way
it was spelled at all.
Of course, that shouldn't surprise me - it is in the English language.

In Bill of Stratford's Henry VIII, Anne Boleyn is spelled "Bullen".

Now that's _evidence_!

HVS

2018-06-11 16:48:25 UTC

On 11 Jun 2018, Cheryl wrote

-snip-

Post by Cheryl
Isn't the surname "Cowper" pronounced "Cooper"? I pronounced it "Cowper"
for years but then encountered some kind of audio or video mention of
one of the famous historical Cowpers, and it wasn't pronounced the way
it was spelled at all.

That reminds me of "Pepys": the 17th-century diarist and his descendants
pronounce[d] the name as "peeps", but other branches of the family (including
the Earls of Cottenham) pronounce it "peppis".

As with place-names, there's simply no way to know how names are pronounced
from their spelling.

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-11 17:17:48 UTC

Post by HVS

That reminds me of "Pepys": the 17th-century diarist and his descendants
pronounce[d] the name as "peeps", but other branches of the family (including
the Earls of Cottenham) pronounce it "peppis".
As with place-names, there's simply no way to know how names are pronounced
from their spelling.

Molly Ivins, the late great political humorist from Texas, insisted that
H. Ross Perot's family pronounced the name "PEE-rott," so that just as
with Stephen Colbert, the Frenchifying was affectation.

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2018-06-11 19:19:08 UTC

Post by HVS
-snip-

That reminds me of "Pepys": the 17th-century diarist and his descendants
pronounce[d] the name as "peeps", but other branches of the family (including
the Earls of Cottenham) pronounce it "peppis".
As with place-names, there's simply no way to know how names are pronounced
from their spelling.

There is mountain named after a man which is pronounced differently from
the man's name.
George Everest:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Everest#Pronunciation_of_%22Everest%22

Sir George's surname was pronounced /'i?vr?st/ ("EEV-rest"). The
mountain named after him – Mount Everest – is pronounced /'?v?r?st/
("EVER-ist") or /'?vr?st/ ("EV-rist")

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Moylan

2018-06-12 04:44:32 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by HVS
As with place-names, there's simply no way to know how names are pronounced
from their spelling.

There is mountain named after a man which is pronounced differently from
the man's name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Everest#Pronunciation_of_%22Everest%22
Sir George's surname was pronounced /'i?vr?st/ ("EEV-rest"). The
mountain named after him – Mount Everest – is pronounced /'?v?r?st/
("EVER-ist") or /'?vr?st/ ("EV-rist")

Australia's highest mountain, Mount Kosciuszko, is pronounced in a way
that Poles would not recognise.

(Approximately: Kozzy Osko]

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-12 11:41:22 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by HVS
As with place-names, there's simply no way to know how names are pronounced
from their spelling.

Australia's highest mountain, Mount Kosciuszko, is pronounced in a way
that Poles would not recognise.
(Approximately: Kozzy Osko]

The recently replaced bridge between Brooklyn and Queens was called in
traffic reports in the 1960s the Kosky-osko Bridge.

In Texas they mispronounce Houston as Hyoo-stun.

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-06-12 11:58:22 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by HVS
As with place-names, there's simply no way to know how names are pronounced
from their spelling.

Australia's highest mountain, Mount Kosciuszko, is pronounced in a way
that Poles would not recognise.
(Approximately: Kozzy Osko]

The recently replaced bridge between Brooklyn and Queens was called in
traffic reports in the 1960s the Kosky-osko Bridge.
In Texas they mispronounce Houston as Hyoo-stun.

Texas city, Texas pronunciation. It's how pretty much everybody in the
world says it. When they move it to New York you can have a say.
Not before.

Tony Cooper

2018-06-11 16:50:22 UTC

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

Rang a bell with me. George Taliaferro was football player in Indiana
in the 1940s. He was a star in high school in Gary IN, and went on to
be a triple-threat (he played multiple positions) at Indiana
University.
He was the first African American drafted by the NFL* and is enshrined
in the NFL Hall of Fame. After retiring from football, he returned
to I.U. to implement affirmative action programs. A familiar name to
many Hoosiers.
*Drafted by the Chicago Bears, but never played for Da Bears. He
opted to play for the Los Angeles Dons in the All-America Football
Conference.

Isn't the surname "Cowper" pronounced "Cooper"?

Dunno. I've never met a "Cowper". If I had to guess at the way the
person pronounced his/her last name, I would not use the "Cooper"
pronunciation.

Post by Cheryl
I pronounced it "Cowper"
for years but then encountered some kind of audio or video mention of
one of the famous historical Cowpers, and it wasn't pronounced the way
it was spelled at all.
Of course, that shouldn't surprise me - it is in the English language.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

J. J. Lodder

2018-06-12 07:43:09 UTC

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

Rang a bell with me. George Taliaferro was football player in Indiana
in the 1940s. He was a star in high school in Gary IN, and went on to
be a triple-threat (he played multiple positions) at Indiana
University.
He was the first African American drafted by the NFL* and is enshrined
in the NFL Hall of Fame. After retiring from football, he returned
to I.U. to implement affirmative action programs. A familiar name to
many Hoosiers.
*Drafted by the Chicago Bears, but never played for Da Bears. He
opted to play for the Los Angeles Dons in the All-America Football
Conference.

Isn't the surname "Cowper" pronounced "Cooper"?

Dunno. I've never met a "Cowper". If I had to guess at the way the
person pronounced his/her last name, I would not use the "Cooper"
pronunciation.

For Jitze:
there is a theory that the Couperus family derives its name
from an Englis or Scottish immigrant named Cowper or Couper.
It is almost certainly false.
BTW, pronunciation is different.
Dutch Couperus has three distict sylables,

Jan

Jerry Friedman

2018-06-11 16:59:10 UTC

On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 10:32:24 AM UTC-6, Cheryl P wrote:
...

Everything I've seen about the 18th-century poet William Cowper
says his surname was pronounced "Cooper".

Post by Cheryl
Of course, that shouldn't surprise me - it is in the English language.

Which moves in a mysterious way its wonders to perform.

--
Jerry Friedman

Quinn C

2018-06-11 22:06:44 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Everything I've seen about the 18th-century poet William Cowper
says his surname was pronounced "Cooper".

Likewise the 17th century William Cowper that the gland is named for. I
didn't know that. His name gets translated wrongly to Japanese in
Wikipedia, while the poet's is correct.

--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945

Cheryl

2018-06-12 11:10:33 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Everything I've seen about the 18th-century poet William Cowper
says his surname was pronounced "Cooper".

I can't remember if I learned the "Cooper" pronunciation in a discussion
of the poet or of Lady Cowper (the socialite, 1787–1869).

Either way, I'd been familiar with the "Cowper" name, and
mis-pronouncing it in my mind, long before I heard it said by someone
who knew the correct pronunciation.

--
Cheryl

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-11 16:33:23 UTC

Post by RH Draney
The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

Rang a bell with me. George Taliaferro was football player in Indiana
in the 1940s. He was a star in high school in Gary IN, and went on to
be a triple-threat (he played multiple positions) at Indiana
University.
He was the first African American drafted by the NFL* and is enshrined
in the NFL Hall of Fame. After retiring from football, he returned
to I.U. to implement affirmative action programs. A familiar name to
many Hoosiers.
*Drafted by the Chicago Bears, but never played for Da Bears. He
opted to play for the Los Angeles Dons in the All-America Football
Conference.

Your irrelevant essay would have been germane to the thread if you'd
bothered to mention how the name was pronounced.

Tony Cooper

2018-06-11 16:48:07 UTC

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by RH Draney
The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

Rang a bell with me. George Taliaferro was football player in Indiana
in the 1940s. He was a star in high school in Gary IN, and went on to
be a triple-threat (he played multiple positions) at Indiana
University.
He was the first African American drafted by the NFL* and is enshrined
in the NFL Hall of Fame. After retiring from football, he returned
to I.U. to implement affirmative action programs. A familiar name to
many Hoosiers.
*Drafted by the Chicago Bears, but never played for Da Bears. He
opted to play for the Los Angeles Dons in the All-America Football
Conference.

Your irrelevant essay would have been germane to the thread if you'd
bothered to mention how the name was pronounced.

It is, as with all last names, pronounced the way that George and
family pronounces it.

You might notice that the post to which I responded used "seen", not
"heard" and mentioned "spelling". I have seen that spelling.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-11 17:15:57 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by RH Draney
The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

Rang a bell with me. George Taliaferro was football player in Indiana
in the 1940s. He was a star in high school in Gary IN, and went on to
be a triple-threat (he played multiple positions) at Indiana
University.
He was the first African American drafted by the NFL* and is enshrined
in the NFL Hall of Fame. After retiring from football, he returned
to I.U. to implement affirmative action programs. A familiar name to
many Hoosiers.
*Drafted by the Chicago Bears, but never played for Da Bears. He
opted to play for the Los Angeles Dons in the All-America Football
Conference.

Your irrelevant essay would have been germane to the thread if you'd
bothered to mention how the name was pronounced.

It is, as with all last names, pronounced the way that George and
family pronounces it.
You might notice that the post to which I responded used "seen", not
"heard" and mentioned "spelling". I have seen that spelling.

So you admit that there was no purpose whatsoever in telling the story
in a threadlet about pronouncing that familiar name.

You might have looked into how the family that owned his ancestors
pronounce the name today.

Tony Cooper

2018-06-11 20:19:21 UTC

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 10:15:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by RH Draney
The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

Rang a bell with me. George Taliaferro was football player in Indiana
in the 1940s. He was a star in high school in Gary IN, and went on to
be a triple-threat (he played multiple positions) at Indiana
University.
He was the first African American drafted by the NFL* and is enshrined
in the NFL Hall of Fame. After retiring from football, he returned
to I.U. to implement affirmative action programs. A familiar name to
many Hoosiers.
*Drafted by the Chicago Bears, but never played for Da Bears. He
opted to play for the Los Angeles Dons in the All-America Football
Conference.

Your irrelevant essay would have been germane to the thread if you'd
bothered to mention how the name was pronounced.

It is, as with all last names, pronounced the way that George and
family pronounces it.
You might notice that the post to which I responded used "seen", not
"heard" and mentioned "spelling". I have seen that spelling.

So you admit that there was no purpose whatsoever in telling the story
in a threadlet about pronouncing that familiar name.

Some might find some irony in your comment if they have read your
same-day post reply in the threadlet on the "Yellow Press" in which
you went on for a few paragraphs on 1990s American television shows
set in Chicago and listed the lead actors with comments on the acting
merits of one actor. One of mentioned television shows was about a
character who predicted disasters and tried to avert them.

Nothing to do with Yellow Press, and the barest connection to the
topic in that the word "Canadian" appeared.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You might have looked into how the family that owned his ancestors
pronounce the name today.

I greatly doubt if that family is available for consultation on the
matter. Their descendents might be, but their pronunciation of the
name would not dictate George's.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-11 20:50:29 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 10:15:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by RH Draney
The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

Rang a bell with me. George Taliaferro was football player in Indiana
in the 1940s. He was a star in high school in Gary IN, and went on to
be a triple-threat (he played multiple positions) at Indiana
University.
He was the first African American drafted by the NFL* and is enshrined
in the NFL Hall of Fame. After retiring from football, he returned
to I.U. to implement affirmative action programs. A familiar name to
many Hoosiers.
*Drafted by the Chicago Bears, but never played for Da Bears. He
opted to play for the Los Angeles Dons in the All-America Football
Conference.

Your irrelevant essay would have been germane to the thread if you'd
bothered to mention how the name was pronounced.

It is, as with all last names, pronounced the way that George and
family pronounces it.
You might notice that the post to which I responded used "seen", not
"heard" and mentioned "spelling". I have seen that spelling.

So you admit that there was no purpose whatsoever in telling the story
in a threadlet about pronouncing that familiar name.

Some might find some irony in your comment if they have read your
same-day post reply in the threadlet on the "Yellow Press" in which
you went on for a few paragraphs on 1990s American television shows
set in Chicago and listed the lead actors with comments on the acting
merits of one actor. One of mentioned television shows was about a
character who predicted disasters and tried to avert them.
Nothing to do with Yellow Press, and the barest connection to the
topic in that the word "Canadian" appeared.

In fact it was entirely apposite -- infinitely more so than your Tolliver
report.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You might have looked into how the family that owned his ancestors
pronounce the name today.

I greatly doubt if that family is available for consultation on the
matter. Their descendents might be, but their pronunciation of the
name would not dictate George's.

How are the descendants of the family not the family?

Their pronunciation of the name would with considerable probability be the
same as the pronunciation the former slave took upon Emancipation, and there
is little reason to suppose that his grandson (probably) pronounced it any
differently.

Madhu

2018-06-12 02:23:32 UTC

... If you get my [thread] drift ...

CDB

2018-06-11 21:05:40 UTC

Post by Ulrich Maier
Hello, in German there are some very frequent surnames that occur
with alternative spellings. The best known example is Maier which
appears also as Meier, Mayer, Meyer, Mayr etc., all pronounced
identically.
Do such spelling variants also exist for frequent English names?
(Actually I found some variants, but none of them occurs really frequently.)
I do not mean name variations such as Richards/Richardson or
Robinson/Robson!

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled
his name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."
And I never realized that "Tolliver" was a different spelling of the
same name.

Presumably of the French version, Taillefer.

Ross

2018-06-11 21:56:42 UTC

Post by Ulrich Maier
Hello, in German there are some very frequent surnames that occur
with alternative spellings. The best known example is Maier which
appears also as Meier, Mayer, Meyer, Mayr etc., all pronounced
identically.
Do such spelling variants also exist for frequent English names?
(Actually I found some variants, but none of them occurs really frequently.)
I do not mean name variations such as Richards/Richardson or
Robinson/Robson!

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled
his name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."
And I never realized that "Tolliver" was a different spelling of the
same name.

Presumably of the French version, Taillefer.

Beauchamp - Beecham

Jerry Friedman

2018-06-12 03:00:30 UTC

Post by Ulrich Maier
Hello, in German there are some very frequent surnames that occur
with alternative spellings. The best known example is Maier which
appears also as Meier, Mayer, Meyer, Mayr etc., all pronounced
identically.
Do such spelling variants also exist for frequent English names?
(Actually I found some variants, but none of them occurs really frequently.)
I do not mean name variations such as Richards/Richardson or
Robinson/Robson!

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled
his name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."
And I never realized that "Tolliver" was a different spelling of the
same name.

Presumably of the French version, Taillefer.

Not necessarily. "Consequently, the Taliaferro family was among the
earliest individuals of Italian descent in America. The Taliaferros, who
pronounced their surname in anglicized fashion as 'Tolliver,' became a
prominent and prosperous family in Virginia and then spread out to other
southern colonies and future states. Throughout American history, the
family has had many notable members and countless descendants."

https://books.google.com/books?id=MHJ1DQAAQBAJ&pg=PA51

The writing may not be great, but it corroborates the references I've
seen, which relate "Tolliver" to "Taliaferro".

--
Jerry Friedman

Quinn C

2018-06-11 22:10:16 UTC

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...there's also
Tolliver/Taliaferro,

I've never seen "Taliaferro," but I once knew someone who spelled his
name the Italian way: "Tagliaferro."

"Taillefer" is common in French. I know someone by that name - I
learned her family name when she showed me her IMDB page.

--
Democracy means government by the uneducated,
while aristocracy means government by the badly educated.
-- G. K. Chesterton

Jerry Friedman

2018-06-11 17:04:26 UTC

The standard example of this is Rogers/Rodgers, for which the two
spellings don't even generate the same Soundex code...

That's standard? Who adheres to that standard?

Thanks for "Soundex", which I'd never heard of.

Post by RH Draney
there's also
Moncrief/Moncrieff and Lincecomb/Linthicum....r

Are there people who spell their name Taliaferro and pronounce it
Tolliver? And if Lincecomb and Linthicum are pronounced the same,
how is that?

--
Jerry Friedman

RH Draney

2018-06-11 22:48:49 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by RH Draney
there's also
Moncrief/Moncrieff and Lincecomb/Linthicum....r

Are there people who spell their name Taliaferro and pronounce it
Tolliver? And if Lincecomb and Linthicum are pronounced the same,
how is that?

To take your questions in order: yes, and I don't know (the change in
spelling appears to have occurred at least a century before Edison
recited "Mary Had a Little Lamb" into a tinfoil cylinder)....r

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2018-06-11 12:57:09 UTC

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 12:19:14 +0200, Ulrich Maier

In Northern Ireland we have Smith and Smyth, pronounced identically
(short-i).

There are a few people here named Smythe. I don't know how they are
pronounced. They might be the same as Smith or they might have the "y"
as "eye" and a voiced "th".

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Dingbat

2018-06-11 15:31:34 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 12:19:14 +0200, Ulrich Maier

In Northern Ireland we have Smith and Smyth, pronounced identically
(short-i).
There are a few people here named Smythe. I don't know how they are
pronounced. They might be the same as Smith or they might have the "y"
as "eye" and a voiced "th".

James St John Smythe (James Bond in disguise) had a pronunciation of
[smaID] in "A view to a kill".

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-06-11 15:51:22 UTC

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 12:19:14 +0200, Ulrich Maier

In Northern Ireland we have Smith and Smyth, pronounced identically
(short-i).
There are a few people here named Smythe. I don't know how they are
pronounced. They might be the same as Smith or they might have the "y"
as "eye" and a voiced "th".

James St John Smythe (James Bond in disguise) had a pronunciation of
[smaID] in "A view to a kill".

Yes, the only Smythe I ever knew pronounced it like that, but he wasn't
Northern Irish.

--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

2018-06-11 16:37:20 UTC

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In Northern Ireland we have Smith and Smyth, pronounced identically
(short-i).
There are a few people here named Smythe. I don't know how they are
pronounced. They might be the same as Smith or they might have the "y"
as "eye" and a voiced "th".

James St John Smythe (James Bond in disguise) had a pronunciation of
[smaID] in "A view to a kill".

Yes, the only Smythe I ever knew pronounced it like that, but he wasn't
Northern Irish.

In Chicago there was a furniture chain named for John M. Smythe. It had a
jingle that repeated the name several times, [smIT]. And at the end of the
commercial, it always said, "Or do you say [smajT]?"

Mack A. Damia

2018-06-11 16:05:07 UTC

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 12:19:14 +0200, Ulrich Maier

I wish that I had a dime for every time my name has been incorrectly
spelled "PROCTOR".

I'd own my own island. I'd call it.......

Macadamia.

Don P

2018-06-11 20:58:00 UTC

No. The current convention is that everyone should spell his or her
surname in a single uniform way: so Mr. Smith spells it Smith and Mrs.
Smyth spells it Smyth, but these count as two different names, not
variant spellings of a single name. Under this convention Mayer and
Meyer are two distinct names, not one name with alternative spelling.

(As is generally well-known) this convention was not agreed in the 16th
century, so William Shakespeare spelled his name differently in almost
every holograph document surviving from his lifetime.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

RH Draney

2018-06-11 22:50:07 UTC

I was a little disappointed when Tom Cruise broke off his relationship
with Penelope Cruz...I had somewhat hoped that they'd marry and choose a
hyphenated surname....r

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-06-12 06:24:43 UTC

I was a little disappointed when Tom Cruise broke off his relationship
with Penelope Cruz...I had somewhat hoped that they'd marry and choose
a hyphenated surname....r

I doubt whether she pronounces Cruz like Cruise. Coming as she does
from the region of Madrid she probably says something like [kruθ], but
even if she came from Seville it wouldn't have a [z] in it.

--
athel

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-06-12 11:01:49 UTC