Discussion:
halt and draw
Add Reply
tonbei
2017-08-10 04:00:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
re: halt and draw
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.

The guns emerged at a trot from the column following Murat and advanced up the Arbat. When they reached
the end of the Vozdvizhenka Street they halted and drew in the Sqaure.
(War and Peace by L.Tolstoy)

context: Napoleon's advance unit was coming into Moscow, led by Murat.

I imagine soliders riding on horses pulling artillery, or big guns.
question: about "halt and draw". Especially, I could't get the sense of "draw".
But I guess it may mean "they drew reins to keep the horses in line".
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-10 06:04:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tonbei
re: halt and draw
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
The guns emerged at a trot from the column following Murat and advanced
up the Arbat. When they reached
the end of the Vozdvizhenka Street they halted and drew in the Sqaure.
(War and Peace by L.Tolstoy)
context: Napoleon's advance unit was coming into Moscow, led by Murat.
I imagine soliders riding on horses pulling artillery, or big guns.
question: about "halt and draw". Especially, I could't get the sense of "draw".
But I guess it may mean "they drew reins to keep the horses in line".
I have exactly the same problem as you, so I can't say what "drew"
means. I thought it might be a typo or mistranslation (maybe for "drew
up", which would be better but still a bit strange) but all the pages
I've found indicate that you've quoted it correctly (apart from
"Sqaure").
--
athel
Mark Brader
2017-08-10 07:01:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by tonbei
re: halt and draw
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
The guns emerged at a trot from the column following Murat and advanced
up the Arbat. When they reached
the end of the Vozdvizhenka Street they halted and drew in the Sqaure.
(War and Peace by L.Tolstoy)
I have exactly the same problem as you, so I can't say what "drew"
means. I thought it might be a typo or mistranslation (maybe for "drew
up", which would be better but still a bit strange)
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also the extra
"the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't work in English.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the pages I've found indicate that you've quoted it correctly
(apart from "Sqaure").
I did this search in Google Books:

intitle:war intitle:peace Murat Arbat halted

There were 13 hits. Some of them would only give me a snippet that
did not actually contain the desired passage. About 4 of the rest
had it exactly as Tonbei said, except for the typo in the last word.

But about another 4 had:

The artillery set forth on the gallop from the column that was
just behind Murat, and crossed the Arbat. On reaching the end
of the Vozdvizhenka, or Holy-Rood Street, the artillery stopped,
and deployed on the square.

And one had:

The artillery trotted out from behind the column following Murat
and went along the Arbat. Going down to the end of Vzdvizhenka
Street, the artillery stopped and lined up on the square.

And another one had:

The artillery set out at a trot, and Murat, passing the column
which was to follow, crossed the Arbatskaïa. When they reached
the end of the street the column stopped.

So the artillery group followed the Arbat (or Arbatskaïa) or crossed
it, the horses were trotting or galloping, the street was Vozdvizhenka
or Vzdvizhenka or unnamed, and they drew (up) or deployed or lined up
or did nothing. Take your pick.
--
Mark Brader | "You're going to get me in trouble."
Toronto | "No, no; you can say anything you want."
***@vex.net | "Yeah, that's what's going to get me into trouble."
--Andrew Christie interviews Bill Watterson

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-08-10 07:12:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-08-10 07:01:01 +0000, Mark Brader said:

[ ... ]
Post by Mark Brader
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also the extra
"the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't work in English.
As there is no "the" in Russian I wonder if the translation was done by
someone who knew Russian better than English, and had the idea that one
needed to insert "the" in lots of places. I find that French people
writing in English often insert "the" in places where it doesn't
belong, and omit it from places where it does. Although French does of
course have definite articles it follows different rules for their use.
--
athel
CDB
2017-08-10 11:12:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Mark Brader
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also the
extra "the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't work in
English.
As there is no "the" in Russian I wonder if the translation was done
by someone who knew Russian better than English, and had the idea
that one needed to insert "the" in lots of places. I find that French
people writing in English often insert "the" in places where it
doesn't belong, and omit it from places where it does. Although
French does of course have definite articles it follows different
rules for their use.
[On reaching the end of the Vozdvizhenka, or Holy-Rood Street, the
artillery stopped and deployed on the square]

The gloss in the second version (above) makes "the Vozdvizhenka"
equivalent to "Holy-Rood Street" (no comma after "Holy-Rood"), so maybe
the article is justified. The Mall, la Grande Allée (Quebec), the
Driveway (Ottawa).

My non-existent Russian suggests that "Vozdvizhenka" may be the feminine
form of an adjective. Is there a suitable feminine noun that could have
been elided?
Peter Moylan
2017-08-10 11:55:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Mark Brader
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also the
extra "the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't work in
English.
As there is no "the" in Russian I wonder if the translation was done
by someone who knew Russian better than English, and had the idea
that one needed to insert "the" in lots of places. I find that French
people writing in English often insert "the" in places where it
doesn't belong, and omit it from places where it does. Although
French does of course have definite articles it follows different
rules for their use.
[On reaching the end of the Vozdvizhenka, or Holy-Rood Street, the
artillery stopped and deployed on the square]
The gloss in the second version (above) makes "the Vozdvizhenka"
equivalent to "Holy-Rood Street" (no comma after "Holy-Rood"), so maybe
the article is justified. The Mall, la Grande Allée (Quebec), the
Driveway (Ottawa).
My non-existent Russian suggests that "Vozdvizhenka" may be the feminine
form of an adjective. Is there a suitable feminine noun that could have
been elided?
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie", which
it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Whiskers
2017-08-10 15:48:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by CDB
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Mark Brader
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also the
extra "the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't work in
English.
As there is no "the" in Russian I wonder if the translation was done
by someone who knew Russian better than English, and had the idea
that one needed to insert "the" in lots of places. I find that French
people writing in English often insert "the" in places where it
doesn't belong, and omit it from places where it does. Although
French does of course have definite articles it follows different
rules for their use.
[On reaching the end of the Vozdvizhenka, or Holy-Rood Street, the
artillery stopped and deployed on the square]
The gloss in the second version (above) makes "the Vozdvizhenka"
equivalent to "Holy-Rood Street" (no comma after "Holy-Rood"), so maybe
the article is justified. The Mall, la Grande Allée (Quebec), the
Driveway (Ottawa).
My non-existent Russian suggests that "Vozdvizhenka" may be the feminine
form of an adjective. Is there a suitable feminine noun that could have
been elided?
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie", which
it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>

'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old. 'Holy
Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a 'Holy Rood
Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets' it knows seem
to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind City Hall, near
Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.

The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based translation
and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'. 'Deployed' feels like
the best translation offered in the examples elsewhere in this thread.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-10 16:13:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie", which
it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old. 'Holy
Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a 'Holy Rood
Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets' it knows seem
to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind City Hall, near
Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based translation
and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'. 'Deployed' feels like
the best translation offered in the examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my grandmother's
apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington Avenue and just missed being
demolished for the George Washington Bridge approaches before 1932.

I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an answer, forgot
it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
Tony Cooper
2017-08-10 17:07:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:13:58 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an answer, forgot
it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
Well, you seem to have managed to embed rood in your online persona.

Warning for the tin-eared who may be screening this: the above is
wordplay and not a typo, misunderstanding of "rood", or caused by not
reading what I've responded to.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-10 17:19:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:13:58 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie", which
it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old. 'Holy
Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a 'Holy Rood
Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets' it knows seem
to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind City Hall, near
Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based translation
and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'. 'Deployed' feels like
the best translation offered in the examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my grandmother's
apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington Avenue and just missed being
demolished for the George Washington Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an answer, forgot
it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
Just in case you've forgotten again, a "rood" is a "cross" representing
that on which Jesus was crucified.

Some churches have a "rood screen" which is an ornate partition between
the chancel and nave, and has a rood, i.e a cross, on top.

In some cases the rood is an empty cross, in others it is a crucifix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen

In England there was a bit of a kerfuffle druing the Reformation
resulting in the removal of roods and sometimes rood screens. Some have
been restored.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_(unit)

Etymology
Rood is an archaic word for "pole", from Old English rod "pole",
specifically "cross", from Proto-Germanic *rodo, cognate to Old
Saxon roda, Old High German ruoda "rod";[1] the relation of rood to
rod, from Old English rodd "pole", is unclear; the latter was
perhaps influenced by Old Norse rudda "club".

[1] OED.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-10 20:48:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:13:58 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie", which
it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old. 'Holy
Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a 'Holy Rood
Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets' it knows seem
to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind City Hall, near
Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based translation
and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'. 'Deployed' feels like
the best translation offered in the examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my grandmother's
apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington Avenue and just missed being
demolished for the George Washington Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an answer, forgot
it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
Just in case you've forgotten again, a "rood" is a "cross" representing
that on which Jesus was crucified.
I know that _now_. I didn't know it when I was 3 or 4 and reading the sign.
Post by Tony Cooper
Some churches have a "rood screen" which is an ornate partition between
the chancel and nave, and has a rood, i.e a cross, on top.
In 19th-century England (and perhaps earlier), the organ was frequently
mounted atop the rood screen.
Post by Tony Cooper
In some cases the rood is an empty cross, in others it is a crucifix.
Usually a crucifix here. Protestant churches didn't have "roods." I don't know
about Catholic ones.
Post by Tony Cooper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen
In England there was a bit of a kerfuffle druing the Reformation
resulting in the removal of roods and sometimes rood screens. Some have
been restored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_(unit)
Etymology
Rood is an archaic word for "pole", from Old English rod "pole",
specifically "cross", from Proto-Germanic *rodo, cognate to Old
Saxon roda, Old High German ruoda "rod";[1] the relation of rood to
rod, from Old English rodd "pole", is unclear; the latter was
perhaps influenced by Old Norse rudda "club".
[1] OED.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-10 21:41:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:48:51 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:13:58 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie", which
it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old. 'Holy
Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a 'Holy Rood
Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets' it knows seem
to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind City Hall, near
Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based translation
and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'. 'Deployed' feels like
the best translation offered in the examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my grandmother's
apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington Avenue and just missed being
demolished for the George Washington Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an answer, forgot
it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
Just in case you've forgotten again, a "rood" is a "cross" representing
that on which Jesus was crucified.
I know that _now_. I didn't know it when I was 3 or 4 and reading the sign.
Post by Tony Cooper
Some churches have a "rood screen" which is an ornate partition between
the chancel and nave, and has a rood, i.e a cross, on top.
In 19th-century England (and perhaps earlier), the organ was frequently
mounted atop the rood screen.
Post by Tony Cooper
In some cases the rood is an empty cross, in others it is a crucifix.
Usually a crucifix here. Protestant churches didn't have "roods." I don't know
about Catholic ones.
Some of the older protestant churches in England started life as
Catholic churches before the Reformation, some in medieval times or
earlier. They were converted from Catholicism to Protestantism during
the Reformation.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen
In England there was a bit of a kerfuffle druing the Reformation
resulting in the removal of roods and sometimes rood screens. Some have
been restored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_(unit)
Etymology
Rood is an archaic word for "pole", from Old English rod "pole",
specifically "cross", from Proto-Germanic *rodo, cognate to Old
Saxon roda, Old High German ruoda "rod";[1] the relation of rood to
rod, from Old English rodd "pole", is unclear; the latter was
perhaps influenced by Old Norse rudda "club".
[1] OED.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-11 03:12:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:48:51 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:13:58 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie", which
it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old. 'Holy
Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a 'Holy Rood
Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets' it knows seem
to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind City Hall, near
Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based translation
and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'. 'Deployed' feels like
the best translation offered in the examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my grandmother's
apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington Avenue and just missed being
demolished for the George Washington Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an answer, forgot
it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
Just in case you've forgotten again, a "rood" is a "cross" representing
that on which Jesus was crucified.
I know that _now_. I didn't know it when I was 3 or 4 and reading the sign.
Post by Tony Cooper
Some churches have a "rood screen" which is an ornate partition between
the chancel and nave, and has a rood, i.e a cross, on top.
In 19th-century England (and perhaps earlier), the organ was frequently
mounted atop the rood screen.
Post by Tony Cooper
In some cases the rood is an empty cross, in others it is a crucifix.
Usually a crucifix here. Protestant churches didn't have "roods." I don't know
about Catholic ones.
Some of the older protestant churches in England started life as
Catholic churches before the Reformation, some in medieval times or
earlier. They were converted from Catholicism to Protestantism during
the Reformation.
Our "Protestant" seems to be your "Dissenter" or "Nonconformist."
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen
In England there was a bit of a kerfuffle druing the Reformation
resulting in the removal of roods and sometimes rood screens. Some have
been restored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_(unit)
Etymology
Rood is an archaic word for "pole", from Old English rod "pole",
specifically "cross", from Proto-Germanic *rodo, cognate to Old
Saxon roda, Old High German ruoda "rod";[1] the relation of rood to
rod, from Old English rodd "pole", is unclear; the latter was
perhaps influenced by Old Norse rudda "club".
[1] OED.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-11 08:16:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 20:12:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:48:51 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:13:58 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie", which
it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old. 'Holy
Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a 'Holy Rood
Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets' it knows seem
to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind City Hall, near
Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based translation
and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'. 'Deployed' feels like
the best translation offered in the examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my grandmother's
apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington Avenue and just missed being
demolished for the George Washington Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an answer, forgot
it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
Just in case you've forgotten again, a "rood" is a "cross" representing
that on which Jesus was crucified.
I know that _now_. I didn't know it when I was 3 or 4 and reading the sign.
Post by Tony Cooper
Some churches have a "rood screen" which is an ornate partition between
the chancel and nave, and has a rood, i.e a cross, on top.
In 19th-century England (and perhaps earlier), the organ was frequently
mounted atop the rood screen.
Post by Tony Cooper
In some cases the rood is an empty cross, in others it is a crucifix.
Usually a crucifix here. Protestant churches didn't have "roods." I don't know
about Catholic ones.
Some of the older protestant churches in England started life as
Catholic churches before the Reformation, some in medieval times or
earlier. They were converted from Catholicism to Protestantism during
the Reformation.
Our "Protestant" seems to be your "Dissenter" or "Nonconformist."
That seems to be the case.

In Ireland the phrase "Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter" was used a
few centuries ago, and may still be used. An alternative form was
"Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter" depending on who was using it.

"Protestant" meant "Anglican". Today "Protestant" is used to mean a
non-Catholic Christian so the broad phrase used in Ireland (North and
South) for all Christians is "Catholics and Protestants" or "Protestants
and Catholics"

I haven't met a non-historic use of "Dissenter" in Northern Ireland,
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen
In England there was a bit of a kerfuffle druing the Reformation
resulting in the removal of roods and sometimes rood screens. Some have
been restored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_(unit)
Etymology
Rood is an archaic word for "pole", from Old English rod "pole",
specifically "cross", from Proto-Germanic *rodo, cognate to Old
Saxon roda, Old High German ruoda "rod";[1] the relation of rood to
rod, from Old English rodd "pole", is unclear; the latter was
perhaps influenced by Old Norse rudda "club".
[1] OED.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-11 11:53:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 20:12:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Usually a crucifix here. Protestant churches didn't have "roods." I don't know
about Catholic ones.
Some of the older protestant churches in England started life as
Catholic churches before the Reformation, some in medieval times or
earlier. They were converted from Catholicism to Protestantism during
the Reformation.
Our "Protestant" seems to be your "Dissenter" or "Nonconformist."
That seems to be the case.
In Ireland the phrase "Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter" was used a
few centuries ago, and may still be used. An alternative form was
"Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter" depending on who was using it.
"Protestant" meant "Anglican". Today "Protestant" is used to mean a
non-Catholic Christian so the broad phrase used in Ireland (North and
South) for all Christians is "Catholics and Protestants" or "Protestants
and Catholics"
"Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox" used to cover all US Christianity, but these
days the "mainline churches" want to dissociate from the rightwing fundie evangelical
crazies who have arrogated "Christian" to themselves.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I haven't met a non-historic use of "Dissenter" in Northern Ireland,
Neither of the words is understood in AmE.

The Anglican Church here is the "Protestant Episcopal Church in the US." Sometimes
they think of themselves as more Catholic (the "smells and bells" variety), sometimes
more Protestant (the low-church ones). But Episcopalians are a small minority among
US denominations -- they just happen to be the wealthier groups by and large.

The Baptist John D. Rockefeller was very much an exception. His U of Chicago (1890)
incorporated a Baptist seminary as the Divinity School. It probably would have
shocked him that the Div School became a bastion of leftwing Xity.
Cheryl
2017-08-11 12:04:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 20:12:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Usually a crucifix here. Protestant churches didn't have "roods." I don't know
about Catholic ones.
Some of the older protestant churches in England started life as
Catholic churches before the Reformation, some in medieval times or
earlier. They were converted from Catholicism to Protestantism during
the Reformation.
Our "Protestant" seems to be your "Dissenter" or "Nonconformist."
That seems to be the case.
In Ireland the phrase "Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter" was used a
few centuries ago, and may still be used. An alternative form was
"Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter" depending on who was using it.
"Protestant" meant "Anglican". Today "Protestant" is used to mean a
non-Catholic Christian so the broad phrase used in Ireland (North and
South) for all Christians is "Catholics and Protestants" or "Protestants
and Catholics"
"Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox" used to cover all US Christianity, but these
days the "mainline churches" want to dissociate from the rightwing fundie evangelical
crazies who have arrogated "Christian" to themselves.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I haven't met a non-historic use of "Dissenter" in Northern Ireland,
Neither of the words is understood in AmE.
The Anglican Church here is the "Protestant Episcopal Church in the US." Sometimes
they think of themselves as more Catholic (the "smells and bells" variety), sometimes
more Protestant (the low-church ones). But Episcopalians are a small minority among
US denominations -- they just happen to be the wealthier groups by and large.
I always find this so funny, since in Newfoundland, equivalent to the
Episcopalians, are most definitely not especially rich - the ruling
elite back in the 1800s may well have been partly or even largely
Anglican, but so were a great many of the poorest rural fishermen. And
the Anglican elite tended to ally with the Methodists and a couple
smaller groups, mainly Salvation Army and Presbyterians, as a Protestant
group rather than try to run things on their own.

My mother, Church of England, as it was called back then, definitely got
the impression that her mother-in-law, from a devoutly American
Methodist family, didn't think much of Episcopalians. There may have
been a hint of disdain for the perceived elaborate nature and
exclusivity of Episcopalians - which of course was contrary to my
mother's experience with the Church of England in Canada.
--
Cheryl
Whiskers
2017-08-10 18:49:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie",
which it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old.
'Holy Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a
'Holy Rood Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets'
it knows seem to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind
City Hall, near Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based
translation and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'.
'Deployed' feels like the best translation offered in the examples
elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my
grandmother's apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington Avenue
and just missed being demolished for the George Washington Bridge
approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
The rood screen is to keep the rude mechanicals (and their animals) out
of the Sanctuary.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
CDB
2017-08-11 14:05:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is
"vozdvizhenie", which it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
Perhaps the Russian for monastery is masculine, and "-enka" is a
feminine diminutive?
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old.
'Holy Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds
a 'Holy Rood Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood
Streets' it knows seem to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in
London is behind City Hall, near Crucifix Lane and not far from
Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based
translation and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'.
'Deployed' feels like the best translation offered in the
examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my
grandmother's apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington
Avenue and just missed being demolished for the George Washington
Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
The rood screen is to keep the rude mechanicals (and their animals)
out of the Sanctuary.
No need to be cross.
RH Draney
2017-08-11 23:09:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
The rood screen is to keep the rude mechanicals (and their animals) out
of the Sanctuary.
One night I caught a brief glimpse of an animated sword-and-sorcery
parody on one of the cable channels...the two adventurers were puzzling
over a door with the inscription "ROODPART", wondering which part was
meant and just exactly what a rood was anyway, when one of them suddenly
realized "it's a palindrome!" just as the ground opened up beneath them....r
Mack A. Damia
2017-08-12 00:11:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
The rood screen is to keep the rude mechanicals (and their animals) out
of the Sanctuary.
One night I caught a brief glimpse of an animated sword-and-sorcery
parody on one of the cable channels...the two adventurers were puzzling
over a door with the inscription "ROODPART", wondering which part was
meant and just exactly what a rood was anyway, when one of them suddenly
realized "it's a palindrome!" just as the ground opened up beneath them....r
Not a palindrome, old chap, just something spelled backwards.

A palindrome is a word that reads the same backward as forward.

"MADAM", "NURSES RUN" "RACECAR"
RH Draney
2017-08-12 02:49:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
One night I caught a brief glimpse of an animated sword-and-sorcery
parody on one of the cable channels...the two adventurers were puzzling
over a door with the inscription "ROODPART", wondering which part was
meant and just exactly what a rood was anyway, when one of them suddenly
realized "it's a palindrome!" just as the ground opened up beneath them....r
Not a palindrome, old chap, just something spelled backwards.
Don't tell me, tell the cartoonists...pedantry notwithstanding, they got
the joke across....r
Whiskers
2017-08-12 13:09:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
One night I caught a brief glimpse of an animated sword-and-sorcery
parody on one of the cable channels...the two adventurers were
puzzling over a door with the inscription "ROODPART", wondering
which part was meant and just exactly what a rood was anyway, when
one of them suddenly realized "it's a palindrome!" just as the
ground opened up beneath them....r
Not a palindrome, old chap, just something spelled backwards.
Don't tell me, tell the cartoonists...pedantry notwithstanding, they
got the joke across....r
Perhaps another character would have taken up the linguistic discussion
at some later time, once the world had a firm floor again.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Brader
2017-08-13 06:40:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
One night I caught a brief glimpse of an animated sword-and-sorcery
parody on one of the cable channels...the two adventurers were puzzling
over a door with the inscription "ROODPART", wondering which part was
meant and just exactly what a rood was anyway, when one of them suddenly
realized "it's a palindrome!" just as the ground opened up...
Not a palindrome, old chap, just something spelled backwards.
Don't tell me, tell the cartoonists...
For that matter, tell the Pythons. At one point in the Dead Parrot
sketch, John Cleese walks into a shop in Bolton and, appropriately,
it's Michael *Palin* who tells him he is in Ipswich. After learning
that it actually is Bolton, he returns to the shop and this happens:

"It was a pun."
"A pun?"
"No, no, not a pun, no. What's the other thing which reads the same
backwards as forwards?"
"A palindrome?"
"Yeah, that's it!"
"It's not a palindrome! The palindrome of Bolton would be Notlob!"

(The two places are roughly 200 miles apart, by the way.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, ***@vex.net
The precedence don't enter into it -- it's stone undefined.
This expression makes no sense. It has ceased to be. It's
expired and gone, though sadly not forgotten. This is a latent
expression. Bereft of meaning, it should rest in peace. If
people didn't keep nailing it into these discussions, it would be
pushing up the daisies. It's rung down the curtain and joined
the choir ineffable. This is not an ex-pression.
-- Steve Summit (after Monty Python)

My text in this article is in the public domain.
RH Draney
2017-08-13 18:50:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by RH Draney
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
One night I caught a brief glimpse of an animated sword-and-sorcery
parody on one of the cable channels...the two adventurers were puzzling
over a door with the inscription "ROODPART", wondering which part was
meant and just exactly what a rood was anyway, when one of them suddenly
realized "it's a palindrome!" just as the ground opened up...
Not a palindrome, old chap, just something spelled backwards.
Don't tell me, tell the cartoonists...
For that matter, tell the Pythons. At one point in the Dead Parrot
sketch, John Cleese walks into a shop in Bolton and, appropriately,
it's Michael *Palin* who tells him he is in Ipswich. After learning
"It was a pun."
"A pun?"
"No, no, not a pun, no. What's the other thing which reads the same
backwards as forwards?"
"A palindrome?"
"Yeah, that's it!"
"It's not a palindrome! The palindrome of Bolton would be Notlob!"
(The two places are roughly 200 miles apart, by the way.)
One imagines the "ROODPART" bit as "improved" by AUE:

"It's a word that spells something else when reversed!"...

The intrepid adventurer would be lying unconscious in a crumpled heap at
the bottom of the shaft before getting halfway through the announcement,
while the audience would still be asking "isn't there a name for that
sort of thing? something like a palimpsest, I think?"...r
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-12 13:16:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 17:11:03 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
The rood screen is to keep the rude mechanicals (and their animals) out
of the Sanctuary.
One night I caught a brief glimpse of an animated sword-and-sorcery
parody on one of the cable channels...the two adventurers were puzzling
over a door with the inscription "ROODPART", wondering which part was
meant and just exactly what a rood was anyway, when one of them suddenly
realized "it's a palindrome!" just as the ground opened up beneath them....r
Not a palindrome, old chap, just something spelled backwards.
Perhaps it could be called a "drow".
Post by Mack A. Damia
A palindrome is a word that reads the same backward as forward.
"MADAM", "NURSES RUN" "RACECAR"
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Mack A. Damia
2017-08-12 16:43:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 14:16:03 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 17:11:03 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
The rood screen is to keep the rude mechanicals (and their animals) out
of the Sanctuary.
One night I caught a brief glimpse of an animated sword-and-sorcery
parody on one of the cable channels...the two adventurers were puzzling
over a door with the inscription "ROODPART", wondering which part was
meant and just exactly what a rood was anyway, when one of them suddenly
realized "it's a palindrome!" just as the ground opened up beneath them....r
Not a palindrome, old chap, just something spelled backwards.
Perhaps it could be called a "drow".
Good one. Submit it to the Committee.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Mack A. Damia
A palindrome is a word that reads the same backward as forward.
"MADAM", "NURSES RUN" "RACECAR"
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-22 21:38:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie", which
it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old. 'Holy
Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a 'Holy Rood
Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets' it knows seem
to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind City Hall, near
Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based translation
and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'. 'Deployed' feels like
the best translation offered in the examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my grandmother's
apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington Avenue and just missed being
demolished for the George Washington Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an answer, forgot
it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
It's in the news this afternoon! It offers sanctuary to an undocumented person
being tracked by ICE. The WNYC newsreader has twice this afternoon pronounced
it to rhyme with "Hollywood."
GordonD
2017-08-23 18:44:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 11:48:41 AM UTC-4, Whiskers
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is
"vozdvizhenie", which it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old.
'Holy Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds
a 'Holy Rood Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood
Streets' it knows seem to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in
London is behind City Hall, near Crucifix Lane and not far from
Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based
translation and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'.
'Deployed' feels like the best translation offered in the
examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my
grandmother's apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington
Avenue and just missed being demolished for the George Washington
Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
It's in the news this afternoon! It offers sanctuary to an
undocumented person being tracked by ICE. The WNYC newsreader has
twice this afternoon pronounced it to rhyme with "Hollywood."
That's how it's pronounced here. It's a district of Edinburgh about a
quarter of a mile from my house, and it's used all the time because
that's where the Scottish Parliament is.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-23 20:04:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GordonD
Post by Peter T. Daniels
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 11:48:41 AM UTC-4, Whiskers
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is
"vozdvizhenie", which it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old.
'Holy Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds
a 'Holy Rood Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood
Streets' it knows seem to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in
London is behind City Hall, near Crucifix Lane and not far from
Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based
translation and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'.
'Deployed' feels like the best translation offered in the
examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my
grandmother's apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington
Avenue and just missed being demolished for the George Washington
Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
It's in the news this afternoon! It offers sanctuary to an
undocumented person being tracked by ICE. The WNYC newsreader has
twice this afternoon pronounced it to rhyme with "Hollywood."
That's how it's pronounced here. It's a district of Edinburgh about a
quarter of a mile from my house, and it's used all the time because
that's where the Scottish Parliament is.
Is that a "Hollyrood" or a "Holy Rood," which is the name of the object and
of the church named for it?

I don't know what the former is, but the latter is an adjective + noun --
a black bird rather than a blackbird.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-08-23 22:10:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by GordonD
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is
"vozdvizhenie", which it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old.
'Holy Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds
a 'Holy Rood Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood
Streets' it knows seem to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in
London is behind City Hall, near Crucifix Lane and not far from
Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based
translation and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'.
'Deployed' feels like the best translation offered in the
examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my
grandmother's apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington
Avenue and just missed being demolished for the George Washington
Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
It's in the news this afternoon! It offers sanctuary to an
undocumented person being tracked by ICE. The WNYC newsreader has
twice this afternoon pronounced it to rhyme with "Hollywood."
That's how it's pronounced here. It's a district of Edinburgh about a
quarter of a mile from my house, and it's used all the time because
that's where the Scottish Parliament is.
Is that a "Hollyrood" or a "Holy Rood," which is the name of the object and
of the church named for it?
There was a church, "Holyrood Abbey". "Holyrood" means "Holy Cross". but
is pronounced "hollyrood":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holyrood_Abbey

Holyrood Abbey is a ruined abbey of the Canons Regular in Edinburgh,
Scotland. The abbey was founded in 1128 by King David I. During the
15th century, the abbey guesthouse was developed into a royal
residence, and after the Scottish Reformation the Palace of
Holyroodhouse was expanded further. The abbey church was used as a
parish church until the 17th century, and has been ruined since the
18th century.

Holyrood includes the following sites:

* The modern Scottish Parliament Building. For this reason
"Holyrood" is often used in contemporary media as a metonym for
the Scottish Government.
* The Palace of Holyroodhouse, the official residence of the monarch
in Scotland.
* The ruins of Holyrood Abbey
* Holyrood Park, an expansive royal park surrounding the palace.
....

That pronunciation of "Holy-" as "holly-" is not unique. Southwest of
Holyrood, Edinburgh, across the North Channel (top end of the Irish Sea)
is the town of Holywood, County Down:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holywood

The English name Holywood comes from Latin Sanctus Boscus, meaning
'holy wood'. This was the name the Normans gave to the woodland
surrounding the monastery of St Laiseran, son of Nasca. The
monastery was founded by Laiseran before 640 and was on the site of
the present Holywood Priory. The earliest Anglicized form appears as
Haliwode in a 14th-century document. Today, the name is pronounced
the same as Hollywood.

There is a road named "Holyrood" in a residential area in the south of
Belfast. I have no idea how it is pronounced.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what the former is, but the latter is an adjective + noun --
a black bird rather than a blackbird.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Cheryl
2017-08-23 22:20:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by GordonD
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is
"vozdvizhenie", which it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old.
'Holy Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds
a 'Holy Rood Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood
Streets' it knows seem to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in
London is behind City Hall, near Crucifix Lane and not far from
Druid Street.
The drew [up] confusion may be related to a dictionary-based
translation and knowing expressions such as 'drew his sword'.
'Deployed' feels like the best translation offered in the
examples elsewhere in this thread.
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my
grandmother's apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington
Avenue and just missed being demolished for the George Washington
Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
It's in the news this afternoon! It offers sanctuary to an
undocumented person being tracked by ICE. The WNYC newsreader has
twice this afternoon pronounced it to rhyme with "Hollywood."
That's how it's pronounced here. It's a district of Edinburgh about a
quarter of a mile from my house, and it's used all the time because
that's where the Scottish Parliament is.
Is that a "Hollyrood" or a "Holy Rood," which is the name of the object and
of the church named for it?
There was a church, "Holyrood Abbey". "Holyrood" means "Holy Cross". but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holyrood_Abbey
Holyrood Abbey is a ruined abbey of the Canons Regular in Edinburgh,
Scotland. The abbey was founded in 1128 by King David I. During the
15th century, the abbey guesthouse was developed into a royal
residence, and after the Scottish Reformation the Palace of
Holyroodhouse was expanded further. The abbey church was used as a
parish church until the 17th century, and has been ruined since the
18th century.
* The modern Scottish Parliament Building. For this reason
"Holyrood" is often used in contemporary media as a metonym for
the Scottish Government.
* The Palace of Holyroodhouse, the official residence of the monarch
in Scotland.
* The ruins of Holyrood Abbey
* Holyrood Park, an expansive royal park surrounding the palace.
....
That pronunciation of "Holy-" as "holly-" is not unique. Southwest of
Holyrood, Edinburgh, across the North Channel (top end of the Irish Sea)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holywood
The English name Holywood comes from Latin Sanctus Boscus, meaning
'holy wood'. This was the name the Normans gave to the woodland
surrounding the monastery of St Laiseran, son of Nasca. The
monastery was founded by Laiseran before 640 and was on the site of
the present Holywood Priory. The earliest Anglicized form appears as
Haliwode in a 14th-century document. Today, the name is pronounced
the same as Hollywood.
There is a road named "Holyrood" in a residential area in the south of
Belfast. I have no idea how it is pronounced.
The name of the town in Newfoundland called Holyrood is pronounced like
holy rood.
--
Cheryl
Paul Wolff
2017-08-23 22:47:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by GordonD
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 12:14:02 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Church of the Holy Rood is the closest Episcopal church to my
grandmother's apartment; it's at 179th St. and Fort Washington
Avenue and just missed being demolished for the George Washington
Bridge approaches before 1932.
I remember having to keep asking what a rood was, and if I got an
answer, forgot it regularly. (Mostly, people didn't know.)
It's in the news this afternoon! It offers sanctuary to an
undocumented person being tracked by ICE. The WNYC newsreader has
twice this afternoon pronounced it to rhyme with "Hollywood."
That's how it's pronounced here. It's a district of Edinburgh about a
quarter of a mile from my house, and it's used all the time because
that's where the Scottish Parliament is.
Is that a "Hollyrood" or a "Holy Rood," which is the name of the object and
of the church named for it?
There was a church, "Holyrood Abbey". "Holyrood" means "Holy Cross". but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holyrood_Abbey
[...]
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
That pronunciation of "Holy-" as "holly-" is not unique.
Indeed not. In my Berkshire childhood I lived in the village of
Holyport, pronounced Holly-port.
--
Paul
charles
2017-08-10 17:07:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by CDB
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Mark Brader
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also the extra
"the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't work in English.
As there is no "the" in Russian I wonder if the translation was done
by someone who knew Russian better than English, and had the idea
that one needed to insert "the" in lots of places. I find that French
people writing in English often insert "the" in places where it
doesn't belong, and omit it from places where it does. Although
French does of course have definite articles it follows different
rules for their use.
[On reaching the end of the Vozdvizhenka, or Holy-Rood Street, the
artillery stopped and deployed on the square]
The gloss in the second version (above) makes "the Vozdvizhenka"
equivalent to "Holy-Rood Street" (no comma after "Holy-Rood"), so
maybe the article is justified. The Mall, la Grande Allée (Quebec),
the Driveway (Ottawa).
My non-existent Russian suggests that "Vozdvizhenka" may be the
feminine form of an adjective. Is there a suitable feminine noun that
could have been elided?
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie",
which it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old. 'Holy
Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a 'Holy Rood
Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets' it knows seem to
be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind City Hall, near
Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.
and one must not forrget The Palace of Holyrood House (Edinburgh) - The
Queen's official residence in Scotland.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
Janet
2017-08-10 19:40:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Subject: Re: halt and draw
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by CDB
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Mark Brader
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also the
extra "the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't work in
English.
As there is no "the" in Russian I wonder if the translation was done
by someone who knew Russian better than English, and had the idea
that one needed to insert "the" in lots of places. I find that French
people writing in English often insert "the" in places where it
doesn't belong, and omit it from places where it does. Although
French does of course have definite articles it follows different
rules for their use.
[On reaching the end of the Vozdvizhenka, or Holy-Rood Street, the
artillery stopped and deployed on the square]
The gloss in the second version (above) makes "the Vozdvizhenka"
equivalent to "Holy-Rood Street" (no comma after "Holy-Rood"), so maybe
the article is justified. The Mall, la Grande Allée (Quebec), the
Driveway (Ottawa).
My non-existent Russian suggests that "Vozdvizhenka" may be the feminine
form of an adjective. Is there a suitable feminine noun that could have
been elided?
The closest my Russian-English dictionary comes is "vozdvizhenie", which
it translates as "Holy Cross Day".
Presumably what the pre-existing monastery was called.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozdvizhenka_Street>
'Holy Rood' is suitably antiquated English for something so old. 'Holy
Rood Street' needs no definite article. Google Maps finds a 'Holy Rood
Lane' in Houston, Texas, but all the 'Holy Rood Streets' it knows seem
to be 'Holyrood Street'. The one in London is behind City Hall, near
Crucifix Lane and not far from Druid Street.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holyrood_Palace

"The Palace of Holyroodhouse (/'h?l??ru?d/ or /'ho?l??ru?d/[1]),
commonly referred to as Holyrood Palace, is the official residence of
the British monarch in Scotland, Queen Elizabeth II. Located at the
bottom of the Royal Mile in Edinburgh, at the opposite end to Edinburgh
Castle, Holyrood Palace has served as the principal residence of the
Kings and Queens of Scots since the 16th century, and is a setting for
state occasions and official entertaining."

Janet
CDB
2017-08-12 14:53:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Mark Brader
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also the
extra "the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't work in
English.
As there is no "the" in Russian I wonder if the translation was
done by someone who knew Russian better than English, and had the
idea that one needed to insert "the" in lots of places. I find that
French people writing in English often insert "the" in places where
it doesn't belong, and omit it from places where it does. Although
French does of course have definite articles it follows different
rules for their use.
[On reaching the end of the Vozdvizhenka, or Holy-Rood Street, the
artillery stopped and deployed on the square]
The gloss in the second version (above) makes "the Vozdvizhenka"
equivalent to "Holy-Rood Street" (no comma after "Holy-Rood"), so
maybe the article is justified. The Mall, la Grande Allée (Quebec),
the Driveway (Ottawa).
And there's "the Danforth" in greater TO. Maybe it's a local thing.

'In Scarborough, Danforth Road connects Danforth Avenue with McCowan
Road. It is possible, therefore, to stand at the intersection of
"Danforth and Danforth", i.e. Danforth Avenue and Danforth Road. Local
references, therefore, are careful to note whether it is the Avenue or
the Road being referred to—although the term "the Danforth" always
refers to Danforth Avenue, and never to Danforth Road.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danforth_Avenue/Danforth_Road
Post by CDB
My non-existent Russian suggests that "Vozdvizhenka" may be the
feminine form of an adjective. Is there a suitable feminine noun
that could have been elided?
That is to say, a feminine noun meaning "street".
Peter T. Daniels
2017-08-12 15:03:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by CDB
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Mark Brader
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also the
extra "the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't work in
English.
As there is no "the" in Russian I wonder if the translation was
done by someone who knew Russian better than English, and had the
idea that one needed to insert "the" in lots of places. I find that
French people writing in English often insert "the" in places where
it doesn't belong, and omit it from places where it does. Although
French does of course have definite articles it follows different
rules for their use.
[On reaching the end of the Vozdvizhenka, or Holy-Rood Street, the
artillery stopped and deployed on the square]
The gloss in the second version (above) makes "the Vozdvizhenka"
equivalent to "Holy-Rood Street" (no comma after "Holy-Rood"), so
maybe the article is justified. The Mall, la Grande Allée (Quebec),
the Driveway (Ottawa).
And there's "the Danforth" in greater TO. Maybe it's a local thing.
There's the famous Bowery in Lower Manhattan (Dutch Bouwerie), which has
<Bowery> on the street signs and in addresses but is always referred to
as "the Bowery" (as in the old song "East side, west side, all around the
town," with the last line "But the Bowery, the Bowery, I'll never go there
any more".

The equally venerable Broadway never takes the article even though the name is
compounded from an adjective and a noun, "the broad way."
Post by CDB
'In Scarborough, Danforth Road connects Danforth Avenue with McCowan
Road. It is possible, therefore, to stand at the intersection of
"Danforth and Danforth", i.e. Danforth Avenue and Danforth Road. Local
references, therefore, are careful to note whether it is the Avenue or
the Road being referred to—although the term "the Danforth" always
refers to Danforth Avenue, and never to Danforth Road.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danforth_Avenue/Danforth_Road
Post by CDB
My non-existent Russian suggests that "Vozdvizhenka" may be the
feminine form of an adjective. Is there a suitable feminine noun
that could have been elided?
That is to say, a feminine noun meaning "street".
Mark Brader
2017-08-13 06:54:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
And there's "the Danforth" in greater TO. Maybe it's a local thing.
Actually, in Toronto itself. About 2/3 of Danforth Av. lies within
the boundaries of Toronto as of 1909. Most of the rest, along with
Danforth Rd., was in Scarborough, but Scarborough hasn't existed as
a municipality for almost 20 years now.
Post by CDB
It is possible, therefore, to stand at the intersection of
"Danforth and Danforth"...
Also Yonge and Yonge; also Bloor, Spadina, and Spadina. Yawn.
Post by CDB
...the term "the Danforth" always
refers to Danforth Avenue, and never to Danforth Road.'
Yes, and sometimes it specifically refer to the Greek district
around Danforth and Pape, well within the pre-1998 Toronto.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Rarely is the question asked:
***@vex.net | 'Is our children learning?'" --George W. Bush

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Peter Moylan
2017-08-13 07:37:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
And there's "the Danforth" in greater TO. Maybe it's a local
thing.
Actually, in Toronto itself. About 2/3 of Danforth Av. lies within
the boundaries of Toronto as of 1909. Most of the rest, along with
Danforth Rd., was in Scarborough, but Scarborough hasn't existed as a
municipality for almost 20 years now.
Post by CDB
It is possible, therefore, to stand at the intersection of
"Danforth and Danforth"...
Also Yonge and Yonge; also Bloor, Spadina, and Spadina. Yawn.
Post by CDB
...the term "the Danforth" always refers to Danforth Avenue, and
never to Danforth Road.'
Yes, and sometimes it specifically refer to the Greek district around
Danforth and Pape, well within the pre-1998 Toronto.
In Cardiff, NSW, it is possible to stand at the intersection of Main
Road and Main Road, and in fact I often walk past that intersection:

<URL:https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-32.9395191,151.6577195,18z>
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
CDB
2017-08-13 16:19:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
And there's "the Danforth" in greater TO. Maybe it's a local
thing.
Actually, in Toronto itself. About 2/3 of Danforth Av. lies within
the boundaries of Toronto as of 1909. Most of the rest, along with
Danforth Rd., was in Scarborough, but Scarborough hasn't existed as
a municipality for almost 20 years now.
Post by CDB
It is possible, therefore, to stand at the intersection of
"Danforth and Danforth"...
Also Yonge and Yonge; also Bloor, Spadina, and Spadina. Yawn.
Post by CDB
...the term "the Danforth" always refers to Danforth Avenue, and
never to Danforth Road.'
Yes, and sometimes it specifically refer to the Greek district
around Danforth and Pape, well within the pre-1998 Toronto.
If it's in Toronto, it's in Greater Toronto (I CBA to look).

Also in the Greater Toronto Co-prosperity Sphere.
Mark Brader
2017-08-13 19:19:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
And there's "the Danforth" in greater TO. Maybe it's a local thing.
Actually, in Toronto itself...
If it's in Toronto, it's in Greater Toronto...
Can't argue with that.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Logic is logic. That's all I say."
***@vex.net -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Ross
2017-08-13 11:36:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by CDB
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Mark Brader
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also the
extra "the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't work in
English.
As there is no "the" in Russian I wonder if the translation was
done by someone who knew Russian better than English, and had the
idea that one needed to insert "the" in lots of places. I find that
French people writing in English often insert "the" in places where
it doesn't belong, and omit it from places where it does. Although
French does of course have definite articles it follows different
rules for their use.
[On reaching the end of the Vozdvizhenka, or Holy-Rood Street, the
artillery stopped and deployed on the square]
The gloss in the second version (above) makes "the Vozdvizhenka"
equivalent to "Holy-Rood Street" (no comma after "Holy-Rood"), so
maybe the article is justified. The Mall, la Grande Allée (Quebec),
the Driveway (Ottawa).
And there's "the Danforth" in greater TO. Maybe it's a local thing.
'In Scarborough, Danforth Road connects Danforth Avenue with McCowan
Road. It is possible, therefore, to stand at the intersection of
"Danforth and Danforth", i.e. Danforth Avenue and Danforth Road. Local
references, therefore, are careful to note whether it is the Avenue or
the Road being referred to—although the term "the Danforth" always
refers to Danforth Avenue, and never to Danforth Road.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danforth_Avenue/Danforth_Road
Post by CDB
My non-existent Russian suggests that "Vozdvizhenka" may be the
feminine form of an adjective. Is there a suitable feminine noun
that could have been elided?
That is to say, a feminine noun meaning "street".
"Ulitsa" springs to mind. But "Vozdvizhenka" does not look like a
proper attributive adjective.
It would be good to find the Russian text, but when W&P has come up
previously, I've found that the online R and E versions seem to be
divided (into books, chapters, etc.) on completely different bases.
So it's just too much trouble.
CDB
2017-08-13 16:20:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross
Post by CDB
Post by CDB
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Mark Brader
I certainly think it's a mistake for "drew up". Note also
the extra "the" before "Vozdvizhenka Street", which doesn't
work in English.
As there is no "the" in Russian I wonder if the translation
was done by someone who knew Russian better than English, and
had the idea that one needed to insert "the" in lots of places.
I find that French people writing in English often insert "the"
in places where it doesn't belong, and omit it from places
where it does. Although French does of course have definite
articles it follows different rules for their use.
[On reaching the end of the Vozdvizhenka, or Holy-Rood Street,
the artillery stopped and deployed on the square]
The gloss in the second version (above) makes "the Vozdvizhenka"
equivalent to "Holy-Rood Street" (no comma after "Holy-Rood"),
so maybe the article is justified. The Mall, la Grande Allée
(Quebec), the Driveway (Ottawa).
And there's "the Danforth" in greater TO. Maybe it's a local
thing.
'In Scarborough, Danforth Road connects Danforth Avenue with
McCowan Road. It is possible, therefore, to stand at the
intersection of "Danforth and Danforth", i.e. Danforth Avenue and
Danforth Road. Local references, therefore, are careful to note
whether it is the Avenue or the Road being referred to—although the
term "the Danforth" always refers to Danforth Avenue, and never to
Danforth Road.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danforth_Avenue/Danforth_Road
Post by CDB
My non-existent Russian suggests that "Vozdvizhenka" may be the
feminine form of an adjective. Is there a suitable feminine
noun that could have been elided?
That is to say, a feminine noun meaning "street".
"Ulitsa" springs to mind. But "Vozdvizhenka" does not look like a
proper attributive adjective. It would be good to find the Russian
text, but when W&P has come up previously, I've found that the online
R and E versions seem to be divided (into books, chapters, etc.) on
completely different bases. So it's just too much trouble.
It will turn up. The trick is to stay alive long enough.
Loading...