Discussion:
Explosive cyclogenesis
(too old to reply)
Tony Cooper
2018-01-04 22:09:32 UTC
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I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but never
where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas where
cyclones occur.

But, I'm currently being informed that the (US) East Coast can expect
"bomb cyclones". "Cyclone" is scary enough, but "bomb cyclone" is
enough to make you jump out of your ruby red slippers.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mack A. Damia
2018-01-04 22:21:18 UTC
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On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 17:09:32 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but never
where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas where
cyclones occur.
But, I'm currently being informed that the (US) East Coast can expect
"bomb cyclones". "Cyclone" is scary enough, but "bomb cyclone" is
enough to make you jump out of your ruby red slippers.
"Bombogenesis".

I already checked; there was a thread about it ten years ago.
Ross
2018-01-04 22:42:46 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but never
where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas where
cyclones occur.
I'd always assumed that it was a tornado that carried Dorothy off.

"A tornado is a violently rotating column of air that is in contact
with both the surface of the earth and a cumulonimbus cloud or,
in rare cases, the base of a cumulus cloud. Also referred to as twisters,
a colloquial term in America, or cyclones, although the word cyclone is
used in meteorology, in a wider sense, to name any closed low-pressure circulation." (Wikipedia s.v. Cyclone)

"The story chronicles the adventures of a young farm girl named Dorothy
in the magical Land of Oz, after she and her pet dog Toto are swept away
from their Kansas home by a cyclone. (Footnote: Baum uses the word cyclone
while describing a tornado.)" (Wikipedia s.v. _The Wonderful Wizard of Oz_)
Post by Tony Cooper
But, I'm currently being informed that the (US) East Coast can expect
"bomb cyclones". "Cyclone" is scary enough, but "bomb cyclone" is
enough to make you jump out of your ruby red slippers.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
"Bomb" metaphors seem to be popular in weather-talk these days.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-01-05 00:19:48 UTC
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On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 17:09:32 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but never
where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas where
cyclones occur.
A hurricane is a type of cyclone. A cyclone has a low-pressure center.

From your very own National Hurricane Center in Miami:
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/aboutgloss.shtml

Cyclone: An atmospheric closed circulation rotating
counter-clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and clockwise in the
Southern Hemisphere.

Tropical Cyclone: A warm-core non-frontal synoptic-scale cyclone,...

Tropical Storm: A tropical cyclone in which the maximum sustained
surface wind speed (using the U.S. 1-minute average) ranges from 34
kt (39 mph or 63 km/hr) to 63 kt (73 mph or 118 km/hr).

Hurricane / Typhoon: A tropical cyclone in which the maximum sustained
surface wind (using the U.S. 1-minute average) is 64 kt (74 mph or
119 km/hr) or more. The term hurricane is used for Northern
Hemisphere tropical cyclones east of the International Dateline to
the Greenwich Meridian. The term typhoon is used for Pacific
tropical cyclones north of the Equator west of the International
Dateline.
Post by Tony Cooper
But, I'm currently being informed that the (US) East Coast can expect
"bomb cyclones". "Cyclone" is scary enough, but "bomb cyclone" is
enough to make you jump out of your ruby red slippers.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ross
2018-01-05 00:28:38 UTC
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Post by Mack A. Damia
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 17:09:32 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but never
where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas where
cyclones occur.
A hurricane is a type of cyclone. A cyclone has a low-pressure center.
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/aboutgloss.shtml
Cyclone: An atmospheric closed circulation rotating
counter-clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and clockwise in the
Southern Hemisphere.
Tropical Cyclone: A warm-core non-frontal synoptic-scale cyclone,...
Tropical Storm: A tropical cyclone in which the maximum sustained
surface wind speed (using the U.S. 1-minute average) ranges from 34
kt (39 mph or 63 km/hr) to 63 kt (73 mph or 118 km/hr).
Hurricane / Typhoon: A tropical cyclone in which the maximum sustained
surface wind (using the U.S. 1-minute average) is 64 kt (74 mph or
119 km/hr) or more. The term hurricane is used for Northern
Hemisphere tropical cyclones east of the International Dateline to
the Greenwich Meridian. The term typhoon is used for Pacific
tropical cyclones north of the Equator west of the International
Dateline.
And down here, outside those zones, they're usually just cyclones.
(Not that we get many in NZ, and those are usually running out of
steam by the time they reach us; but we hear plenty about cyclone
damage to NE Australia and the islands.)
Peter Moylan
2018-01-05 00:52:49 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 17:09:32 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but
never where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas
where cyclones occur.
A hurricane is a type of cyclone. A cyclone has a low-pressure center.
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/aboutgloss.shtml
Cyclone: An atmospheric closed circulation rotating
counter-clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and clockwise in the
Southern Hemisphere.
Tropical Cyclone: A warm-core non-frontal synoptic-scale
cyclone,...
Tropical Storm: A tropical cyclone in which the maximum sustained
surface wind speed (using the U.S. 1-minute average) ranges from
34 kt (39 mph or 63 km/hr) to 63 kt (73 mph or 118 km/hr).
Hurricane / Typhoon: A tropical cyclone in which the maximum
sustained surface wind (using the U.S. 1-minute average) is 64 kt
(74 mph or 119 km/hr) or more. The term hurricane is used for
Northern Hemisphere tropical cyclones east of the International
Dateline to the Greenwich Meridian. The term typhoon is used for
Pacific tropical cyclones north of the Equator west of the
International Dateline.
And down here, outside those zones, they're usually just cyclones.
(Not that we get many in NZ, and those are usually running out of
steam by the time they reach us; but we hear plenty about cyclone
damage to NE Australia and the islands.)
It's all a question of how tightly focused the cyclone is. Normally it's
just a "low" on the weather map, and we all experience those all the
time as part of the normal weather patterns. If conditions are such that
the isobars get closer together, the wind speeds go up, and you get a
particular kind of storm. If it's a tight and particularly destructive
storm, then you get into the fine print of the definitions, and it can
be called a hurricane or a tropical cyclone or typhoon or whatever.

The Kansas-type tornado is an extreme case, where the cross-sectional
area of the "storm" is very small and a lot of energy is focused on a
very small region. I have the impression that that kind can only happen
in dry flat areas well away from the coast, but I could be wrong. The
coastal cyclones can be just as destructive, but in a different way. I
think they rely on picking up energy from the ocean.

Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Garrett Wollman
2018-01-05 02:01:50 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
The Kansas-type tornado is an extreme case, where the cross-sectional
area of the "storm" is very small and a lot of energy is focused on a
very small region. I have the impression that that kind can only happen
in dry flat areas well away from the coast, but I could be wrong.
You are. They can happen anywhere that there is enough energy in the
atmosphere and sufficient wind shear to initiate rotation. When they
happen over a body of water, they're called "waterspouts". The energy
comes from the potential difference between a warm, wet air mass and a
cold front, same as with other thunderstorms, and in fact they are
sometimes spawned by hurricanes. (The extreme damage caused in parts
of South Florida by Hurricane Andrew has been attributed to embedded
tornadoes.)

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Tony Cooper
2018-01-05 03:34:51 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Peter Moylan
The Kansas-type tornado is an extreme case, where the cross-sectional
area of the "storm" is very small and a lot of energy is focused on a
very small region. I have the impression that that kind can only happen
in dry flat areas well away from the coast, but I could be wrong.
You are. They can happen anywhere that there is enough energy in the
atmosphere and sufficient wind shear to initiate rotation. When they
happen over a body of water, they're called "waterspouts". The energy
comes from the potential difference between a warm, wet air mass and a
cold front, same as with other thunderstorms, and in fact they are
sometimes spawned by hurricanes. (The extreme damage caused in parts
of South Florida by Hurricane Andrew has been attributed to embedded
tornadoes.)
Andrew took down a couple of large pine trees in my yard, but we fared
worse with Irma. The check from my insurance company came yesterday.
It will pay for a new roof* and extensive ceiling damage in some rooms
where water came through the damaged roof plus some other things.
About $35,000 in damages. My contribution will be my $7,500
deductible.

*A technically inaccurate statement, but we do say things like that.
What will be replaced is all the shingles and the water-damaged panels
under the shingles.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
2018-01-05 08:08:34 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
It's all a question of how tightly focused the cyclone is. Normally it's
just a "low" on the weather map, and we all experience those all the
time as part of the normal weather patterns. If conditions are such that
the isobars get closer together, the wind speeds go up, and you get a
particular kind of storm. If it's a tight and particularly destructive
storm, then you get into the fine print of the definitions, and it can
be called a hurricane or a tropical cyclone or typhoon or whatever.
The Kansas-type tornado is an extreme case, where the cross-sectional
area of the "storm" is very small...
No, actually, it isn't. Tornado formation does not necessarily derive
from a cyclonic storm, as is proved by the fact that some tornadoes
rotate anticyclonically, i.e. clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere.
(They would still involve low pressure in the center, but need not be
the result of an ordinary low-pressure area intensifying.)
--
Mark Brader | "This was followed by a vocal response which
Toronto | would now be reserved for kicking a ball in a net."
***@vex.net | --Derrick Beckett

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Steve Hayes
2018-01-06 00:31:02 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-06 11:38:18 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-06 15:26:16 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese,
on the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for
flying.
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-07 08:25:55 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese,
on the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for
flying.
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/01/06/stunning-footage-of-flying-birds-from-a-ultralight-plane-in-the-flock/


https://tinyurl.com/y94tvl45
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-07 11:19:51 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese,
on the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for
flying.
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/01/06/stunning-footage-of-flying
-birds-from-a-ultralight-plane-in-the-flock/
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
https://tinyurl.com/y94tvl45
Long ago I saw some footage from a biologist
who had been studying African vultures,
using a glider. (with back-up power)

He found he couldn't keep up with them,
despite having better aerodynamics.
The vultures out-turned him,
and could stay more accurately in the core of the thermal,
so they out-climbed him.

The vultures must have differential thermo sensing in their wings,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-07 11:30:11 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese,
on the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for
flying.
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/01/06/stunning-footage-of-flying
-birds-from-a-ultralight-plane-in-the-flock/
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
https://tinyurl.com/y94tvl45
As you rightly said, coincidences don't exist, but this blog entry was
posted today!
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-07 12:25:37 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground
level, though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where
the air has cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese,
on the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for
flying.
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/01/06/stunning-footage-of-fly
ing
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
-birds-from-a-ultralight-plane-in-the-flock/
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
https://tinyurl.com/y94tvl45
As you rightly said, coincidences don't exist, but this blog entry was
posted today!
Off-line newsreading doesn't just make usenet asynchronous,
but also your own subjective timeline,

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-07 11:19:50 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals.
Coincidences don't exist of course,
but while I was reading this there was some Mediterrenean
nature documentary with vultures on a TV screen nearby.
Commentator voice said that vultures can stay aloft
for eight hours without a single flap of their wings.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Swans and geese, on the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive
system for flying.
Yes. Flying in formation helps, and may even be necessary.
I've been told that there is a minor biochemical mystery with this.
Swans can burn all of their fat reserves on a single flight,
so quite rapidly, and far more rapidly than we can.
By the time they arrive they may be 'flying on empty',
having lost a large fraction of their take-off weight.
Some of them don't make it.

It's a long way from the tundra to the Dutch or English wetlands,
where they can eat enough to build up reserves again,

Jan
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-01-07 11:45:14 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Coincidences don't exist of course,
Huh? Of course they exist. It's just wrong to attach
any special significance to them.
Richard Yates
2018-01-07 14:40:39 UTC
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On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 03:45:14 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by J. J. Lodder
Coincidences don't exist of course,
Huh? Of course they exist.
Not really. The appearance of simultaneity of occurrences is
observer-dependent.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
It's just wrong to attach
any special significance to them.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-01-07 16:59:43 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 03:45:14 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by J. J. Lodder
Coincidences don't exist of course,
Huh? Of course they exist.
Not really. The appearance of simultaneity of occurrences is
observer-dependent.
If a casino's 3 roulette wheels land on 24 all at the same time,
is that really observer-dependent? Surely the three events are
co-incident without any need for interpretation?
Richard Yates
2018-01-07 18:55:29 UTC
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On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 08:59:43 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 03:45:14 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by J. J. Lodder
Coincidences don't exist of course,
Huh? Of course they exist.
Not really. The appearance of simultaneity of occurrences is
observer-dependent.
If a casino's 3 roulette wheels land on 24 all at the same time,
is that really observer-dependent? Surely the three events are
co-incident without any need for interpretation?
(It's a relativity joke, MG.)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-01-07 19:36:43 UTC
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On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 10:55:29 -0800, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 08:59:43 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 03:45:14 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by J. J. Lodder
Coincidences don't exist of course,
Huh? Of course they exist.
Not really. The appearance of simultaneity of occurrences is
observer-dependent.
If a casino's 3 roulette wheels land on 24 all at the same time,
is that really observer-dependent? Surely the three events are
co-incident without any need for interpretation?
(It's a relativity joke, MG.)
Indeed.

Even so, in a casino the position of the observer with respect to the
three roulette wheels would affect the observer's view of "at the same
time" if the observer had the ability to detect minute differences in
the time taken for light to travel from each wheel to the observer.
With such superhuman abilities observers in different parts of the
casino would have different views on the order in which the wheels
landed on 24.

With normal human powers a situation based on sound rather than vision
might demonstrate the point. Consider three devices that emit a short
sharp "bang". Someone equidistant from them hears them sounding
simultaneously. Other people who are in various places where the devices
are not equidistant hear them going "bang" not-simultaneously and in
different orders.

Obviously the greater the distances the more noticeable this effect.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Garrett Wollman
2018-01-07 22:05:53 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
With normal human powers a situation based on sound rather than vision
might demonstrate the point. Consider three devices that emit a short
sharp "bang". Someone equidistant from them hears them sounding
simultaneously. Other people who are in various places where the devices
are not equidistant hear them going "bang" not-simultaneously and in
different orders.
But in normal human situations we have an agreed-upon absolute time
scale that can be referenced, and simultaneity can be inferred after
the observation from the known distances and propagation velocity to
within measurement error. That's why relativity is so
counterintuitive: it says that can be no privileged absolute time or
distance scale, when our everyday experience on the surface of the
earth is that there is.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Snidely
2018-01-08 09:33:12 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
With normal human powers a situation based on sound rather than vision
might demonstrate the point. Consider three devices that emit a short
sharp "bang". Someone equidistant from them hears them sounding
simultaneously. Other people who are in various places where the devices
are not equidistant hear them going "bang" not-simultaneously and in
different orders.
But in normal human situations we have an agreed-upon absolute time
scale that can be referenced, and simultaneity can be inferred after
the observation from the known distances and propagation velocity to
within measurement error. That's why relativity is so
counterintuitive: it says that can be no privileged absolute time or
distance scale, when our everyday experience on the surface of the
earth is that there is.
-GAWollman
In general, the prospective dinner (wildebeest, banana, or salmon)
isn't moving at significant fraction of /c/ relative to our frame.

/dps
--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)
Snidely
2018-01-08 10:07:05 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
With normal human powers a situation based on sound rather than vision
might demonstrate the point. Consider three devices that emit a short
sharp "bang". Someone equidistant from them hears them sounding
simultaneously. Other people who are in various places where the devices
are not equidistant hear them going "bang" not-simultaneously and in
different orders.
But in normal human situations we have an agreed-upon absolute time
scale that can be referenced, and simultaneity can be inferred after
the observation from the known distances and propagation velocity to
within measurement error. That's why relativity is so
counterintuitive: it says that can be no privileged absolute time or
distance scale, when our everyday experience on the surface of the
earth is that there is.
-GAWollman
In general, the prospective dinner (wildebeest, banana, or salmon) isn't
moving at significant fraction of /c/ relative to our frame.
Also, prospective diners (cougar, lion, hyena, grizzly) only seem to
achieve light speed briefly.

/dps
--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013
Richard Tobin
2018-01-08 15:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Snidely
In general, the prospective dinner (wildebeest, banana, or salmon)
isn't moving at significant fraction of /c/ relative to our frame.
That's just because evolution hasn't been working on it long enough.

-- Richard
Adam Funk
2018-01-08 15:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Snidely
In general, the prospective dinner (wildebeest, banana, or salmon)
isn't moving at significant fraction of /c/ relative to our frame.
That's just because evolution hasn't been working on it long enough.
Perhaps as with blind cave fish, the costs of being able to move that
fast outweighed the gains. The missing link might be missing because
most of the specimens were destroyed by air resistance.
--
I heard that Hans Christian Andersen lifted the title for "The Little
Mermaid" off a Red Lobster Menu. --- Bucky Katt
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-08 20:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Snidely
In general, the prospective dinner (wildebeest, banana, or salmon)
isn't moving at significant fraction of /c/ relative to our frame.
That's just because evolution hasn't been working on it long enough.
Perhaps as with blind cave fish, the costs of being able to move that
fast outweighed the gains. The missing link might be missing because
most of the specimens were destroyed by air resistance.
Science folklore has it that the cheetah sprint
is close to the limits of the possible,

Jan
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-01-07 23:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 10:55:29 -0800, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 08:59:43 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 03:45:14 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by J. J. Lodder
Coincidences don't exist of course,
Huh? Of course they exist.
Not really. The appearance of simultaneity of occurrences is
observer-dependent.
If a casino's 3 roulette wheels land on 24 all at the same time,
is that really observer-dependent? Surely the three events are
co-incident without any need for interpretation?
(It's a relativity joke, MG.)
Indeed.
Even so, in a casino the position of the observer with respect to the
three roulette wheels would affect the observer's view of "at the same
time" if the observer had the ability to detect minute differences in
the time taken for light to travel from each wheel to the observer.
With such superhuman abilities observers in different parts of the
casino would have different views on the order in which the wheels
landed on 24.
With normal human powers a situation based on sound rather than vision
might demonstrate the point. Consider three devices that emit a short
sharp "bang". Someone equidistant from them hears them sounding
simultaneously. Other people who are in various places where the devices
are not equidistant hear them going "bang" not-simultaneously and in
different orders.
Obviously the greater the distances the more noticeable this effect.
I deliberately chose a casino scenario because every table would be
monitored by CCTV and therefore simultaneous events would have
the same time stamp on the recording. I'm not just a pretty face,
you know!
Snidely
2018-01-08 09:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 10:55:29 -0800, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 08:59:43 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 03:45:14 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by J. J. Lodder
Coincidences don't exist of course,
Huh? Of course they exist.
Not really. The appearance of simultaneity of occurrences is
observer-dependent.
If a casino's 3 roulette wheels land on 24 all at the same time,
is that really observer-dependent? Surely the three events are
co-incident without any need for interpretation?
(It's a relativity joke, MG.)
Indeed.
Even so, in a casino the position of the observer with respect to the
three roulette wheels would affect the observer's view of "at the same
time" if the observer had the ability to detect minute differences in
the time taken for light to travel from each wheel to the observer.
With such superhuman abilities observers in different parts of the
casino would have different views on the order in which the wheels
landed on 24.
With normal human powers a situation based on sound rather than vision
might demonstrate the point. Consider three devices that emit a short
sharp "bang". Someone equidistant from them hears them sounding
simultaneously. Other people who are in various places where the devices
are not equidistant hear them going "bang" not-simultaneously and in
different orders.
Obviously the greater the distances the more noticeable this effect.
I deliberately chose a casino scenario because every table would be
monitored by CCTV and therefore simultaneous events would have
the same time stamp on the recording. I'm not just a pretty face,
you know!
Darn it! I want to be able to claim I know someone who is just a
pretty face

/dps
--
Ieri, oggi, domani
Sam Plusnet
2018-01-09 01:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 10:55:29 -0800, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 08:59:43 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Richard Yates
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 03:45:14 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by J. J. Lodder
Coincidences don't exist of course,
Huh? Of course they exist.
Not really. The appearance of simultaneity of occurrences is
observer-dependent.
If a casino's 3 roulette wheels land on 24 all at the same time,
is that really observer-dependent? Surely the three events are
co-incident without any need for interpretation?
(It's a relativity joke, MG.)
Indeed.
Even so, in a casino the position of the observer with respect to the
three roulette wheels would affect the observer's view of "at the same
time" if the observer had the ability to detect minute differences in
the time taken for light to travel from each wheel to the observer.
With such superhuman abilities observers in different parts of the
casino would have different views on the order in which the wheels
landed on 24.
With normal human powers a situation based on sound rather than vision
might demonstrate the point. Consider three devices that emit a short
sharp "bang". Someone equidistant from them hears them sounding
simultaneously. Other people who are in various places where the devices
are not equidistant hear them going "bang" not-simultaneously and in
different orders.
Obviously the greater the distances the more noticeable this effect.
I deliberately chose a casino scenario because every table would be
monitored by CCTV and therefore simultaneous events would have
the same time stamp on the recording. I'm not just a pretty face, you
know!
Darn it!  I want to be able to claim I know someone who is just a pretty
face
Just a pretty face would have to be no body, not somebody.
--
Sam Plusnet
Snidely
2018-01-08 09:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
Ignoring the thermals, for the moment:

<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>

/dps
--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)
Snidely
2018-01-08 10:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time. On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky. I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.

(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk. What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)

/dps
--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.
Jerry Friedman
2018-01-08 17:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time.
Yep. They're not particularly interested in staying in one place.
But in migration, they love the updrafts off north-south ridges.
Post by Snidely
On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky.
That's probably why I don't have one.
Post by Snidely
I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
Lucky you!
Post by Snidely
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk.
(Sharp-shinned.)

For our friends in Europe (including islands), your sparrowhawk is
sort of the average between our Sharp-shinned Hawk (smaller) and
Cooper's Hawk (bigger).
Post by Snidely
What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)
I don't think I've ever heard a Sharpie. If you feel like it, you
can listen to a wide choice of their calls on xeno-canto.org
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-08 20:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known
to glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at
ground level, though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may
form where the air has cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and
geese, on the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system
for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626
519008905/>
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Snidely
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time.
Yep. They're not particularly interested in staying in one place.
But in migration, they love the updrafts off north-south ridges.
Post by Snidely
On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky.
That's probably why I don't have one.
Post by Snidely
I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
Lucky you!
Post by Snidely
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk.
(Sharp-shinned.)
For our friends in Europe (including islands), your sparrowhawk is
sort of the average between our Sharp-shinned Hawk (smaller) and
Cooper's Hawk (bigger).
Eurasian sparrowhawk, actually.
And 'including islands' excludes Iceland,

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2018-01-08 22:31:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Snidely
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk.
(Sharp-shinned.)
For our friends in Europe (including islands), your sparrowhawk is
sort of the average between our Sharp-shinned Hawk (smaller) and
Cooper's Hawk (bigger).
Eurasian sparrowhawk, actually.
Yes, that's the one I meant by "your".
Post by J. J. Lodder
And 'including islands' excludes Iceland,
Also the Faroes, Rockall, etc. But I don't think there are any a.u.e.-ers
in those places.
--
Jerry Friedman
Snidely
2018-01-09 09:08:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground
level, though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the
air has cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time.
Yep. They're not particularly interested in staying in one place.
But in migration, they love the updrafts off north-south ridges.
Post by Snidely
On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky.
That's probably why I don't have one.
Post by Snidely
I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
Lucky you!
Post by Snidely
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk.
(Sharp-shinned.)
And I had the wikiple open when I typed that, too. But I think the
person who identified it for me used "shank" ... and I thought I had
made an audio memo about that, but I couldn't find it (s/b on the old
phone).
Post by Jerry Friedman
For our friends in Europe (including islands), your sparrowhawk is
sort of the average between our Sharp-shinned Hawk (smaller) and
Cooper's Hawk (bigger).
Post by Snidely
What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)
I don't think I've ever heard a Sharpie. If you feel like it, you
can listen to a wide choice of their calls on xeno-canto.org
Will do. This was apparently a declaration of territoriality. The
other hawks I've heard (mostly red tails, it seems) haven't teased me
with anything similar. I think in my presence, they've only done
mewing, a single note (ignoring harmonics) at a relatively high pitch.
I heard quite a bit of this a year or two ago as a pair raised a clutch
in the trees by my office. I haven't heard a rabbit scream, but one of
the security patrol folk told me he had. Still lots of them around the
landscaping.

The parental units didn't come around this year, and I think that's
because two vacant lots got developed, so they probably moved further
out. Parts of Laguna Canyon are public undevelopment areas, and the
lampposts on that stretch of freeway make handy observation platforms.

/dps
--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-08 20:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-7215762651
9008905/>
Post by Snidely
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time. On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky. I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
It's all a matter of size. Small birds can't use thermals,
and they can hover by flapping their wings.
Big birds must use thermals, and can't hover for any length of time.

Explaining why takes some aerodynamicics,
and some invoking og scaling laws,

Jan
RH Draney
2018-01-08 20:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
It's all a matter of size. Small birds can't use thermals,
and they can hover by flapping their wings.
Big birds must use thermals, and can't hover for any length of time.
Explaining why takes some aerodynamicics,
and some invoking og scaling laws,
Meanwhile, on the ground, larger birds get about by walking, one foot in
front of the other, while the smaller ones prefer to hop....r
Sam Plusnet
2018-01-09 01:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
It's all a matter of size. Small birds can't use thermals,
and they can hover by flapping their wings.
Big birds must use thermals, and can't hover for any length of time.
Explaining why takes some aerodynamicics,
and some invoking og scaling laws,
Meanwhile, on the ground, larger birds get about by walking, one foot in
front of the other, while the smaller ones prefer to hop....r
Some small birds walk.
There are some which patrol the beach and look very much as though
they're operated by clockwork.
--
Sam Plusnet
Jerry Friedman
2018-01-09 15:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by RH Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
It's all a matter of size. Small birds can't use thermals,
and they can hover by flapping their wings.
Big birds must use thermals, and can't hover for any length of time.
Explaining why takes some aerodynamicics,
and some invoking og scaling laws,
Meanwhile, on the ground, larger birds get about by walking, one foot in
front of the other, while the smaller ones prefer to hop....r
Some small birds walk.
There are some which patrol the beach and look very much as though
they're operated by clockwork.
Those are sandpipers (including some called stints, over where you
are) and maybe plovers. The ones that are most often compared to
clockwork are Sanderlings. They're light gray and white outside
the breeding season, and they like to chase the retreating waves.
--
Jerry Friedman
Snidely
2018-01-09 08:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
It's all a matter of size. Small birds can't use thermals,
and they can hover by flapping their wings.
Big birds must use thermals, and can't hover for any length of time.
Explaining why takes some aerodynamicics,
and some invoking og scaling laws,
Meanwhile, on the ground, larger birds get about by walking, one foot in
front of the other, while the smaller ones prefer to hop....r
What size do you consider crows to be? They walk OR hop. Sometimes
both in the same get.

/dps
--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-09 12:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Snidely
Post by RH Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
It's all a matter of size. Small birds can't use thermals,
and they can hover by flapping their wings.
Big birds must use thermals, and can't hover for any length of time.
Explaining why takes some aerodynamicics,
and some invoking og scaling laws,
Meanwhile, on the ground, larger birds get about by walking, one foot in
front of the other, while the smaller ones prefer to hop....r
What size do you consider crows to be? They walk OR hop. Sometimes
both in the same get.
As do bald eagles. I think all birds can do both.
It's just that they have preferences,

Jan
Janet
2018-01-09 15:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, ***@de-
ster.demon.nl says...
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Snidely
Post by RH Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
It's all a matter of size. Small birds can't use thermals,
and they can hover by flapping their wings.
Big birds must use thermals, and can't hover for any length of time.
Explaining why takes some aerodynamicics,
and some invoking og scaling laws,
Meanwhile, on the ground, larger birds get about by walking, one foot in
front of the other, while the smaller ones prefer to hop....r
What size do you consider crows to be? They walk OR hop. Sometimes
both in the same get.
As do bald eagles. I think all birds can do both.
It's just that they have preferences,
I don't think ostriches hop. Or herons, or ducks.

Janet
Jerry Friedman
2018-01-09 16:30:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Janet
ster.demon.nl says...
...
Post by Janet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Snidely
Post by RH Draney
Meanwhile, on the ground, larger birds get about by walking, one foot in
front of the other, while the smaller ones prefer to hop....r
What size do you consider crows to be? They walk OR hop. Sometimes
both in the same get.
As do bald eagles. I think all birds can do both.
It's just that they have preferences,
I don't think ostriches hop. Or herons, or ducks.
Or even pigeons. Or larks. The second video on this page shows a
Horned Lark (BrE "Shore Lark") walking. it's a little bigger than
a House Sparrow.

https://www.hbw.com/ibc/species/horned-lark-eremophila-alpestris

(I might be wrong about larks. Birds of North America online says
of this species, "Adults walk, fledglings hop after leaving the nest
until about day 27 (Beason 1970).")

The Yellow-billed Loon (BrE "White-billed Diver") can walk a
little, mostly with its breast and belly on the ground, but it
"Can also move slightly faster by alternately pushing itself onto
its feet and falling forward (Schaefer 1955)." (BNA online.)
Ow.

To summarize, some birds such as swifts and hummingbirds can't
move on land, some only walk, some only hop, some do both, and some
change from one to the other during their lives.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2018-01-09 15:58:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Snidely
Post by RH Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
It's all a matter of size. Small birds can't use thermals,
and they can hover by flapping their wings.
Big birds must use thermals, and can't hover for any length of time.
Explaining why takes some aerodynamicics,
and some invoking og scaling laws,
Meanwhile, on the ground, larger birds get about by walking, one foot in
front of the other, while the smaller ones prefer to hop....r
What size do you consider crows to be? They walk OR hop. Sometimes
both in the same get.
Gait?

Crows and ravens do something I'd call galloping, but Birds of North
American online says of the American Crow, "Hops in corvid fashion
(Hayes and Alexander 1983) when in a hurry, such as when chasing
prey-—one foot hitting the ground earlier and slightly ahead of the
other." (For "ahead of" read "behind".)
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-09 15:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
It's all a matter of size. Small birds can't use thermals,
and they can hover by flapping their wings.
Big birds must use thermals, and can't hover for any length of time.
Explaining why takes some aerodynamicics,
and some invoking og scaling laws,
Meanwhile, on the ground, larger birds get about by walking, one foot in
front of the other, while the smaller ones prefer to hop....r
Do they really have a choice in the matter?
Ross
2018-01-09 02:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time. On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky. I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk. What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)
What _are_ those things called? They've been around as long as I can
remember, but I cannot think of a name for them.
Mack A. Damia
2018-01-09 02:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time. On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky. I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk. What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)
What _are_ those things called? They've been around as long as I can
remember, but I cannot think of a name for them.
Party horn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_horn
Ross
2018-01-09 03:08:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ross
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of
dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time. On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky. I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk. What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)
What _are_ those things called? They've been around as long as I can
remember, but I cannot think of a name for them.
Party horn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_horn
Not by me. But thanks. I note "The item is not known consistently
by any term in English, also being known by a number of local variations, neologisms, and individual terms, often containing variants and synonyms
of blowing (puffing, blow-out etc.) and noise (whistle, squeak etc.)
[citation needed]"
Nuff said. Bring on the local variations.
Ross
2018-01-09 03:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ross
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of
dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time. On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky. I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk. What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)
What _are_ those things called? They've been around as long as I can
remember, but I cannot think of a name for them.
Party horn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_horn
Not by me. But thanks. I note "The item is not known consistently
by any term in English, also being known by a number of local variations, neologisms, and individual terms, often containing variants and synonyms
of blowing (puffing, blow-out etc.) and noise (whistle, squeak etc.)
[citation needed]"
Nuff said. Bring on the local variations.
In-house NZEng Consultant suggests "squeaker".
Mack A. Damia
2018-01-09 04:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross
Post by Ross
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ross
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of
dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time. On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky. I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk. What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)
What _are_ those things called? They've been around as long as I can
remember, but I cannot think of a name for them.
Party horn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_horn
Not by me. But thanks. I note "The item is not known consistently
by any term in English, also being known by a number of local variations, neologisms, and individual terms, often containing variants and synonyms
of blowing (puffing, blow-out etc.) and noise (whistle, squeak etc.)
[citation needed]"
Nuff said. Bring on the local variations.
In-house NZEng Consultant suggests "squeaker".
Also "party blower", "noisemaker" or "party horn blower".

Amazon sells "party blowers".
Ross
2018-01-09 04:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ross
Post by Ross
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ross
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of
dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time. On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky. I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk. What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)
What _are_ those things called? They've been around as long as I can
remember, but I cannot think of a name for them.
Party horn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_horn
Not by me. But thanks. I note "The item is not known consistently
by any term in English, also being known by a number of local variations, neologisms, and individual terms, often containing variants and synonyms
of blowing (puffing, blow-out etc.) and noise (whistle, squeak etc.)
[citation needed]"
Nuff said. Bring on the local variations.
In-house NZEng Consultant suggests "squeaker".
Also "party blower", "noisemaker" or "party horn blower".
Amazon sells "party blowers".
"Noisemaker" rings a distant bell.
b***@shaw.ca
2018-01-09 04:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ross
Post by Ross
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ross
Post by Snidely
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk. What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)
What _are_ those things called? They've been around as long as I can
remember, but I cannot think of a name for them.
Party horn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_horn
Not by me. But thanks. I note "The item is not known consistently
by any term in English, also being known by a number of local variations, neologisms, and individual terms, often containing variants and synonyms
of blowing (puffing, blow-out etc.) and noise (whistle, squeak etc.)
[citation needed]"
Nuff said. Bring on the local variations.
In-house NZEng Consultant suggests "squeaker".
Also "party blower", "noisemaker" or "party horn blower".
Amazon sells "party blowers".
"Noisemaker" rings a distant bell.
"Noisemaker" is understood in Vancouver, and party horn works as well.

bill
Peter Moylan
2018-01-09 16:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross
On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 19:41:11 -0800 (PST), Ross
Post by Ross
Post by Ross
On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 18:15:29 -0800 (PST), Ross
On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 11:11:34 PM UTC+13, Snidely
Post by Snidely
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the
remarks of -- a sharp-shanked hawk. What attracted my
attention was that it sounded rather like those New Years
noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly exhale through
them.)
What _are_ those things called? They've been around as long
as I can remember, but I cannot think of a name for them.
Party horn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_horn
Not by me. But thanks. I note "The item is not known
consistently by any term in English, also being known by a
number of local variations, neologisms, and individual terms,
often containing variants and synonyms of blowing (puffing,
blow-out etc.) and noise (whistle, squeak etc.) [citation
needed]" Nuff said. Bring on the local variations.
In-house NZEng Consultant suggests "squeaker".
Also "party blower", "noisemaker" or "party horn blower".
Amazon sells "party blowers".
"Noisemaker" rings a distant bell.
I have no idea for AusE. We use them only once a year, so have no need
for a word for them.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-09 17:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[ ... ]
Post by Ross
"Noisemaker" rings a distant bell.
I have no idea for AusE. We use them only once a year, so have no need
for a word for them.
Are vuvuzelas now happily forgotten (except, presumably, in South Africa)?
--
athel
Mack A. Damia
2018-01-09 17:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 18:33:51 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Ross
"Noisemaker" rings a distant bell.
I have no idea for AusE. We use them only once a year, so have no need
for a word for them.
Are vuvuzelas now happily forgotten (except, presumably, in South Africa)?
They are marketed as "stadium horns" now.

https://www.amazon.com/Vuvuzela-Stadium-Horns-Burgundy-Noisemakers/dp/B005NA264U
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-01-09 19:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 18:33:51 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
Post by Ross
"Noisemaker" rings a distant bell.
I have no idea for AusE. We use them only once a year, so have no need
for a word for them.
Are vuvuzelas now happily forgotten (except, presumably, in South Africa)?
Once heard, never forgotten.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-01-09 12:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 20:19:39 -0800, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ross
Post by Ross
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ross
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 1/8/2018, Snidely did proclaim ...
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of
dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals. Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
Indeed. Those glider pilots of yours watch out for the cloud lanes
that are the result of repeating thermals.
Nothing new, big birds do just the same,
Vultures couldn't manage if they didn't have thermals. Swans and geese, on
the other hand, seem to use a very muscle-intensive system for flying.
Which spends more time feeding?
Post by J. J. Lodder
and have probably been doing so for millions of years,
<URL:https://www.flickr.com/photos/tootsuite/24705357527/in/album-72157626519008905/>
Cooper's hawks seem to ignore thermals most of the time. On the other
hand, getting a good picture thereof is rather tricky. I do have a
convenient place to make additional attempts, though.
(I may also have seen a bit of profile -- and heard the remarks of -- a
sharp-shanked hawk. What attracted my attention was that it sounded
rather like those New Years noisemakers that unroll when your rapidly
exhale through them.)
What _are_ those things called? They've been around as long as I can
remember, but I cannot think of a name for them.
Party horn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_horn
Not by me. But thanks. I note "The item is not known consistently
by any term in English, also being known by a number of local variations, neologisms, and individual terms, often containing variants and synonyms
of blowing (puffing, blow-out etc.) and noise (whistle, squeak etc.)
[citation needed]"
Nuff said. Bring on the local variations.
In-house NZEng Consultant suggests "squeaker".
Also "party blower", "noisemaker" or "party horn blower".
Amazon sells "party blowers".
Also known as "blowouts" on Amazon UK.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2018-01-06 16:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals.
Though you can have lots of thermals without a single dust devil.
Post by Steve Hayes
Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
And if the process continues, the cumulus clouds may become
cumulonimbus and the water may reach ground level, if you're lucky.
(That last was for my fellow dwellers in dry climates.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2018-01-07 10:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
And if the process continues, the cumulus clouds may become
cumulonimbus and the water may reach ground level, if you're lucky.
(That last was for my fellow dwellers in dry climates.)
I know just what you mean. Last week the weather forecast said that it
would rain here, but we wouldn't notice because it would evaporate well
above ground level.

Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-07 12:25:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
And if the process continues, the cumulus clouds may become
cumulonimbus and the water may reach ground level, if you're lucky.
(That last was for my fellow dwellers in dry climates.)
I know just what you mean. Last week the weather forecast said that it
would rain here, but we wouldn't notice because it would evaporate well
above ground level.
If you watch carefully you can often see it happening,
Post by Peter Moylan
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
Jan
Jerry Friedman
2018-01-08 17:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
And if the process continues, the cumulus clouds may become
cumulonimbus and the water may reach ground level, if you're lucky.
(That last was for my fellow dwellers in dry climates.)
I know just what you mean. Last week the weather forecast said that it
would rain here, but we wouldn't notice because it would evaporate well
above ground level.
If you watch carefully you can often see it happening,
...

You mean you can see the boundary between rain and nothing? Yes,
I've tried to photograph it, but it's a low-contrast phenomenon.

ObVocab: "Virga".
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-08 20:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
And if the process continues, the cumulus clouds may become
cumulonimbus and the water may reach ground level, if you're lucky.
(That last was for my fellow dwellers in dry climates.)
I know just what you mean. Last week the weather forecast said that it
would rain here, but we wouldn't notice because it would evaporate well
above ground level.
If you watch carefully you can often see it happening,
...
You mean you can see the boundary between rain and nothing?
Yes. The falling drops scatter light,
so appear dark against the direction of the sun.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Yes, I've tried to photograph it, but it's a low-contrast phenomenon.
ObVocab: "Virga".
There is a very striking example on
<https://www.weerplaza.nl/weerinhetnieuws/buien-zonder-neerslag/3087>
(fig 5) See under:
"Neerslag verdampt onderweg" (E. lit. Precipitation evaporates underway)
Dutch word for the phenomenon is 'valstrepen' (E. lit. fall stripes)

A less clear pic on
<https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s320x320/e35/20589741_456
087644763689_6889968304107028480_n.jpg>

As said, if you know what it looks like it you can often see it,

Jan
Sam Plusnet
2018-01-09 01:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
And if the process continues, the cumulus clouds may become
cumulonimbus and the water may reach ground level, if you're lucky.
(That last was for my fellow dwellers in dry climates.)
I know just what you mean. Last week the weather forecast said that it
would rain here, but we wouldn't notice because it would evaporate well
above ground level.
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
<puzzled>

Does it count as snow in that case?
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2018-01-09 02:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
And if the process continues, the cumulus clouds may become
cumulonimbus and the water may reach ground level, if you're lucky.
(That last was for my fellow dwellers in dry climates.)
I know just what you mean. Last week the weather forecast said that it
would rain here, but we wouldn't notice because it would evaporate well
above ground level.
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
<puzzled>
Does it count as snow in that case?
Apparently it did, because snow was observed falling at some height
above us.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mark Brader
2018-01-09 06:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
Does it count as snow in that case?
Apparently it did, because snow was observed falling at some height
above us.
I think the correct question is whether it counts as "getting".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, ***@vex.net | "Well, *somebody* had to say it."
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-09 07:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
Does it count as snow in that case?
Apparently it did, because snow was observed falling at some height
above us.
I think the correct question is whether it counts as "getting".
If we allow it to count then just about any temperate place on earth
"gets" snow, because (if I remember what I read many years ago) rain in
the temperate zones always starts out as snow. (Tropical rain is
different, I think.)
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-09 12:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
Does it count as snow in that case?
Apparently it did, because snow was observed falling at some height
above us.
I think the correct question is whether it counts as "getting".
If we allow it to count then just about any temperate place on earth
"gets" snow, because (if I remember what I read many years ago) rain in
the temperate zones always starts out as snow. (Tropical rain is
different, I think.)
On one occasion, when driving through a hilly landscape,
I happened to see it demonstrated in a very obvious way.
White above one particular contour line, dark below,
for as far as I could see..
BTW, is there an iso- name for a line of constant elevation?
(one that is actually used)

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2018-01-09 14:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
Does it count as snow in that case?
Apparently it did, because snow was observed falling at some height
above us.
I think the correct question is whether it counts as "getting".
If we allow it to count then just about any temperate place on earth
"gets" snow, because (if I remember what I read many years ago) rain in
the temperate zones always starts out as snow. (Tropical rain is
different, I think.)
On one occasion, when driving through a hilly landscape,
I happened to see it demonstrated in a very obvious way.
White above one particular contour line, dark below,
for as far as I could see..
I see that pretty often in New Mexico, not surprisingly.
Post by J. J. Lodder
BTW, is there an iso- name for a line of constant elevation?
(one that is actually used)
"Contour line" is actually used, though I wouldn't bet that half of
Americans know it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-09 16:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
BTW, is there an iso- name for a line of constant elevation?
(one that is actually used)
"Contour line" is actually used, though I wouldn't bet that half of
Americans know it.
They did back when there was Geography in school. But who these days has ever seen a proper topo map?
Janet
2018-01-09 16:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
BTW, is there an iso- name for a line of constant elevation?
(one that is actually used)
"Contour line" is actually used, though I wouldn't bet that half of
Americans know it.
They did back when there was Geography in school. But who these days has ever seen a proper topo map?
Still very common in UK. Walkers and cyclists commonly use Ordnance
Survey maps, both paper version and online.

Janet.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-09 19:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Janet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
BTW, is there an iso- name for a line of constant elevation?
(one that is actually used)
"Contour line" is actually used, though I wouldn't bet that half of
Americans know it.
They did back when there was Geography in school. But who these days has ever seen a proper topo map?
Still very common in UK. Walkers and cyclists commonly use Ordnance
Survey maps, both paper version and online.
How often are they revised and updated?

In the 1960s, the USGS was selling maps dating from the 1930s. Maybe they felt
they should finish covering the whole country (they never did) before replacing
the earlier ones.
Richard Tobin
2018-01-09 19:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Janet
Still very common in UK. Walkers and cyclists commonly use Ordnance
Survey maps, both paper version and online.
How often are they revised and updated?
In the 1960s, the USGS was selling maps dating from the 1930s. Maybe
they felt they should finish covering the whole country (they never
did) before replacing the earlier ones.
Things are very different now. The masters are digital, and are
continuously updated. New digital editions of OS maps are published
at intervals between 6 weeks and a year:

http://www.getmapping.com/support/how-often-are-ordnance-survey-mapping-products-updated

The printed ones are, they say, updated depending on popularity, and
they don't seem to want to give any hard numbers:

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2011/07/how-often-do-we-update-our-paper-maps

The 1:25,000 printed OS map of Edinburgh on sale at Amazon was published
in 2015.

-- Richard
Sam Plusnet
2018-01-09 19:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
Does it count as snow in that case?
Apparently it did, because snow was observed falling at some height
above us.
I think the correct question is whether it counts as "getting".
If we allow it to count then just about any temperate place on earth
"gets" snow, because (if I remember what I read many years ago) rain in
the temperate zones always starts out as snow. (Tropical rain is
different, I think.)
On one occasion, when driving through a hilly landscape,
I happened to see it demonstrated in a very obvious way.
White above one particular contour line, dark below,
for as far as I could see..
BTW, is there an iso- name for a line of constant elevation?
(one that is actually used)
It's not uncommon for us to have snow whilst at the bottom of the
village (200 ft lower) it's raining.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-01-09 12:05:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
Does it count as snow in that case?
Apparently it did, because snow was observed falling at some height
above us.
I think the correct question is whether it counts as "getting".
How high above the ground does Newcastle extend?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-01-09 12:16:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it reached the ground.
Does it count as snow in that case?
Apparently it did, because snow was observed falling at some height
above us.
I think the correct question is whether it counts as "getting".
How high above the ground does Newcastle extend?
9m (30ft) according to the oracle but there are a couple of alleged
mountains (400m) in the distance which collected a little
whitening in 1969 and 1975.
Peter Moylan
2018-01-09 16:13:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Years ago, Newcastle actually got snow, but none of it
reached the ground.
Does it count as snow in that case?
Apparently it did, because snow was observed falling at some
height above us.
I think the correct question is whether it counts as "getting".
How high above the ground does Newcastle extend?
All the way to the stratosphere, as I understand it, but the mining
companies would probably enter a counter-claim.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Snidely
2018-01-08 09:35:42 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
We call those dust-devils or whirlwinds. Higher up they are known to
glider pilots as thermals.
Though you can have lots of thermals without a single dust devil.
Post by Steve Hayes
Unlike tornadoes they are dry at ground level,
though if it goes high enough, cumulus clouds may form where the air has
cooled enough for water vapour to condense.
And if the process continues, the cumulus clouds may become
cumulonimbus and the water may reach ground level, if you're lucky.
(That last was for my fellow dwellers in dry climates.)
For the last 20 years, I've heard rumors of that.

/dps
--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)
Jerry Friedman
2018-01-06 14:30:00 UTC
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Raw Message
On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 7:52:55 PM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:
...
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
Huh. I once allowed a dust devil in New Mexico to hit me, and found
the experience quite unpleasant--getting stung in the face by
various particles, some of them bigger than I expected. If it's too
painful, you're too old?
--
Jerry Friedman
Ken Blake
2018-01-06 15:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 06:30:00 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Huh. I once allowed a dust devil in New Mexico to hit me, and found
the experience quite unpleasant--getting stung in the face by
various particles, some of them bigger than I expected. If it's too
painful, you're too old?
Bad as that may be, it's even worse if you're driving on a highway
Peter Moylan
2018-01-07 10:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Peter Moylan
Inland Australia experiences a miniature kind of tornado called a
willy-willy. It's normally not destructive, and in fact at school we
used to enjoy running through them. It's just a travelling column of dust.
Huh. I once allowed a dust devil in New Mexico to hit me, and found
the experience quite unpleasant--getting stung in the face by
various particles, some of them bigger than I expected. If it's too
painful, you're too old?
For school-children, the element of challenge is an important factor.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2018-01-05 01:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but
never where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas
where cyclones occur.
But, I'm currently being informed that the (US) East Coast can
expect "bomb cyclones". "Cyclone" is scary enough, but "bomb
cyclone" is enough to make you jump out of your ruby red slippers.
I've noticed that the current northern hemisphere freeze is bringing the
climate change deniers out in droves. "If it's that cold, then obviously
there isn't any global warming." They can't see the difference between
the global temperature rise and local coolings.

In their defence, I should see that it's not easy to see the connection.
Cold winters in Western Europe are easier to explain. That region relies
for its heating on a flow of warm water across the Atlantic. Melting
arctic ice is changing the salinity of the gulf stream, and that can
change the flow. If a tipping point is reached -- and everyone is hoping
it won't be -- then global warming could cause an ice age in Europe.

For North America, the critical factor seems to be the northern jet
stream. Warming in Alaska causes that boundary to move, meaning that a
lot of cold air gets dumped on regions further south. If the global
temperature rise can't be halted, then extreme winters could become a
regular feature in the US and Canada.

We don't seem to have those complications in the southern hemisphere,
apart from the problem of tropical storms moving further south. For us,
warming just means too much heat. Both our winters and summers are
getting hotter. Perhaps that's because there's no land, except in South
America, in the critical boundary zones.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-05 04:30:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but
never where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas
where cyclones occur.
But, I'm currently being informed that the (US) East Coast can
expect "bomb cyclones". "Cyclone" is scary enough, but "bomb
cyclone" is enough to make you jump out of your ruby red slippers.
I've noticed that the current northern hemisphere freeze is bringing the
climate change deniers out in droves. "If it's that cold, then obviously
there isn't any global warming." They can't see the difference between
the global temperature rise and local coolings.
In their defence, I should see that it's not easy to see the connection.
Cold winters in Western Europe are easier to explain. That region relies
for its heating on a flow of warm water across the Atlantic. Melting
arctic ice is changing the salinity of the gulf stream, and that can
change the flow. If a tipping point is reached -- and everyone is hoping
it won't be -- then global warming could cause an ice age in Europe.
For North America, the critical factor seems to be the northern jet
stream. Warming in Alaska causes that boundary to move, meaning that a
lot of cold air gets dumped on regions further south. If the global
temperature rise can't be halted, then extreme winters could become a
regular feature in the US and Canada.
We don't seem to have those complications in the southern hemisphere,
apart from the problem of tropical storms moving further south. For us,
warming just means too much heat. Both our winters and summers are
getting hotter. Perhaps that's because there's no land, except in South
America, in the critical boundary zones.
Also we're having immensely powerful winds. Where do they suppose the energy
driving those winds is coming from?
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-05 11:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but
never where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas
where cyclones occur.
But, I'm currently being informed that the (US) East Coast can
expect "bomb cyclones". "Cyclone" is scary enough, but "bomb
cyclone" is enough to make you jump out of your ruby red slippers.
I've noticed that the current northern hemisphere freeze is bringing the
climate change deniers out in droves. "If it's that cold, then obviously
there isn't any global warming." They can't see the difference between
the global temperature rise and local coolings.
But Western Europe likes it.
The cause is the polar vortex displacing south over North America.
(probably related to global warming, no definitive proof yet)

While they are having extreme cold over there
Western Europe enjoys abnormally warm winter weather,

Jan
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-01-05 13:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but
never where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas
where cyclones occur.
But, I'm currently being informed that the (US) East Coast can
expect "bomb cyclones". "Cyclone" is scary enough, but "bomb
cyclone" is enough to make you jump out of your ruby red slippers.
I've noticed that the current northern hemisphere freeze is bringing the
climate change deniers out in droves. "If it's that cold, then obviously
there isn't any global warming." They can't see the difference between
the global temperature rise and local coolings.
To be fair, scientists have left themselves hostages to fortune by calling
it 'global' warming in the first place. If they'd come up with 'climate
change' a little earlier and never allowed the other phrasing to hit the
streets it might have saved a lot of angst.
Peter Moylan
2018-01-05 14:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but
never where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas
where cyclones occur.
But, I'm currently being informed that the (US) East Coast can
expect "bomb cyclones". "Cyclone" is scary enough, but "bomb
cyclone" is enough to make you jump out of your ruby red slippers.
I've noticed that the current northern hemisphere freeze is bringing the
climate change deniers out in droves. "If it's that cold, then obviously
there isn't any global warming." They can't see the difference between
the global temperature rise and local coolings.
To be fair, scientists have left themselves hostages to fortune by calling
it 'global' warming in the first place. If they'd come up with 'climate
change' a little earlier and never allowed the other phrasing to hit the
streets it might have saved a lot of angst.
Nonetheless, it is indeed a warming phenomenon. This shows up quite
clearly on maps that show which regions are experiencing higher
temperatures than expected, and which regions are experiencing lower
temperatures than expected. The "higher" regions dominate. The local
cooling is just a side-effect. Naturally those who live in that "cool"
region feel that they have cause for complaint.

Calling it "climate change" is a sop to the ignorant, including the
Donald, who can't be bothered to look at the evidence.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Steve Hayes
2018-01-06 00:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
We don't seem to have those complications in the southern hemisphere,
apart from the problem of tropical storms moving further south. For us,
warming just means too much heat. Both our winters and summers are
getting hotter. Perhaps that's because there's no land, except in South
America, in the critical boundary zones.
Our winters have been a lot warmer than they were 30 years ago. Last year
we had barely three days of frost.

There have been warnings of a "solar minimum" that may bring a respite
from the general global warming trend, but no signs of it where we are.
--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-06 11:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Peter Moylan
We don't seem to have those complications in the southern hemisphere,
apart from the problem of tropical storms moving further south. For us,
warming just means too much heat. Both our winters and summers are
getting hotter. Perhaps that's because there's no land, except in South
America, in the critical boundary zones.
Our winters have been a lot warmer than they were 30 years ago. Last year
we had barely three days of frost.
There have been warnings of a "solar minimum" that may bring a respite
from the general global warming trend, but no signs of it where we are.
Another datum is provided by the Frisian 'Elfstedentocht'.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfstedentocht>
It is the heaviest race on natural ice in the world.
(about 200 km, to be done in under seven hours in good weather)
There are about 16 000 participants.

Early in the 20th century it could be held on average
once every five years. (until 1963)
The last one was in 1997, and it is quite possible
that it will never again be possible to have one.

Jan
Quinn C
2018-01-09 17:49:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
I've noticed that the current northern hemisphere freeze is bringing the
climate change deniers out in droves. "If it's that cold, then obviously
there isn't any global warming." They can't see the difference between
the global temperature rise and local coolings.
No need to consider local cooling yet in North America. What we
have right now is a winter like they used to be before that long
succession of unusually warm ones. We had many many "warmest on
record" over just the last few years. I suspect we had more days
hitting lows under -20 in the last week of 2017 than in the whole
winter 2016/17 here in Montreal.
--
The bee must not pass judgment on the hive. (Voxish proverb)
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.125
Garrett Wollman
2018-01-09 17:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
No need to consider local cooling yet in North America. What we
have right now is a winter like they used to be before that long
succession of unusually warm ones. We had many many "warmest on
record" over just the last few years. I suspect we had more days
hitting lows under -20 in the last week of 2017 than in the whole
winter 2016/17 here in Montreal.
There is an outdoors-industry lobby group called "Preserve Our
Winters" or something similar to that (ICBA to look them up right now)
which is funded by the ski and snowmobile industries.

I for one remember that all the ski areas used to open the weekend
after Thanksgiving. This century, many are lucky to be open by
Christmas break.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-09 19:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
I've noticed that the current northern hemisphere freeze is bringing the
climate change deniers out in droves. "If it's that cold, then obviously
there isn't any global warming." They can't see the difference between
the global temperature rise and local coolings.
No need to consider local cooling yet in North America. What we
have right now is a winter like they used to be before that long
succession of unusually warm ones. We had many many "warmest on
record" over just the last few years. I suspect we had more days
hitting lows under -20 in the last week of 2017 than in the whole
winter 2016/17 here in Montreal.
Last night's Channel 2 News said that our streak of 13 days below freezing has
been equaled only about four times in the past century. The longest such streak
was in 1907 (IIRC), at 16 days. The streak may not have been broken today --
last I heard it was only 30F.

But there are 19th-century photos of the Hudson frozen over -- a nice trick,
since it's salt estuary all the way up to Albany.
Joy Beeson
2018-01-05 05:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 17:09:32 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but never
where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas where
cyclones occur.
"Cyclone" used to mean "tornado" in some dialects. It was obsolete in
my youth, but still recent enough that a report of a cluster of
tornados could include " . . . and Cyclone had a cyclone" and expect
to be understood. (Cyclone was named after a tornado that flattened
it in 1880.)
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Steve Hayes
2018-01-06 00:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but never
where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas where
cyclones occur.
I thought hurricanes, cyclones and typhoons were different names the same
weather phenomenon, used in different parts of the world. They are all
revolving tropical storms, but hurricanes develop over the Atlantic
ocean, cyclones over the Indian ocean and typhoons over the Pacific
ocean.

I thought it was Kansas where tornadoes might be expected, where there
are relatively flat grasslands, though recently we seem to have been
having tornadoes in unusual places -- much hillier landscapes.
--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-01-06 00:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but never
where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas where
cyclones occur.
I thought hurricanes, cyclones and typhoons were different names the same
weather phenomenon, used in different parts of the world. They are all
revolving tropical storms, but hurricanes develop over the Atlantic
ocean, cyclones over the Indian ocean and typhoons over the Pacific
ocean.
I thought it was Kansas where tornadoes might be expected, where there
are relatively flat grasslands, though recently we seem to have been
having tornadoes in unusual places -- much hillier landscapes.
There's nowhere that tornadoes are not to be expected. Kansas is really
not that special. If you're looking for a true tornado alley, the greatest
number of tornadoes per square mile of land is actually experienced in
... well, have a guess ... you're almost certainly wrong!
Quinn C
2018-01-09 17:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
There's nowhere that tornadoes are not to be expected. Kansas is really
not that special. If you're looking for a true tornado alley, the greatest
number of tornadoes per square mile of land is actually experienced in
... well, have a guess ... you're almost certainly wrong!
Searching for "greatest number of tornadoes per square mile" leads
me to a page that presents BS (bad statistics).
--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-09 18:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
There's nowhere that tornadoes are not to be expected. Kansas is really
not that special. If you're looking for a true tornado alley, the greatest
number of tornadoes per square mile of land is actually experienced in
... well, have a guess ... you're almost certainly wrong!
Searching for "greatest number of tornadoes per square mile" leads
me to a page that presents BS (bad statistics).
I read years ago (New Scientist, I think) that the answer was South
East England and North East France.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-01-09 20:25:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 19:01:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
There's nowhere that tornadoes are not to be expected. Kansas is really
not that special. If you're looking for a true tornado alley, the greatest
number of tornadoes per square mile of land is actually experienced in
... well, have a guess ... you're almost certainly wrong!
Searching for "greatest number of tornadoes per square mile" leads
me to a page that presents BS (bad statistics).
I read years ago (New Scientist, I think) that the answer was South
East England and North East France.
https://blog.metoffice.gov.uk/2012/05/08/how-often-do-we-get-tornadoes-in-the-uk/

How often do we get tornadoes in the UK?
Posted on 8 May, 2012 by Met Office Press Office

....
It is claimed that the UK gets more tornadoes per square kilometre
than the USA, but not more tornadoes in total. On average, around 30
tornadoes are reported each year in the UK, although these are
generally much weaker than their American counterparts. However,
there have been a number of notable exceptions – such as the
Birmingham tornado on July 28 2005 which left a significant trail of
damage.
....
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Mark Brader
2018-01-06 01:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but never
where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas where
cyclones occur.
I thought hurricanes, cyclones and typhoons were different names the same
weather phenomenon, used in different parts of the world. They are all
revolving tropical storms...
"Cyclone" has three different meanings. Tony is talking about an archaic
one that *was* used in Kansas. You're talking about one that's used in
Australia. Still another one includes any low-pressure area.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Beware the Calends of April also."
***@vex.net -- Peter Neumann
J. J. Lodder
2018-01-06 11:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Tony Cooper
I've lived in tornado- and hurricane-prone parts of the US, but never
where cyclones might be expected. I thought it was Kansas where
cyclones occur.
I thought hurricanes, cyclones and typhoons were different names the same
weather phenomenon, used in different parts of the world. They are all
revolving tropical storms...
"Cyclone" has three different meanings. Tony is talking about an archaic
one that *was* used in Kansas. You're talking about one that's used in
Australia. Still another one includes any low-pressure area.
Indeed, the weathermen even have anti-cyclones.
They are not the right way back to Kansas, I'm afraid,

Jan
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