Discussion:
OT] (again): Mahler
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Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-05 16:41:22 UTC
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We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 16:56:19 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
A lot of people didn't used to like Mahler (when he was conducted by his
own disciples such as Walter, Mitropoulos, and Mengelberg). Virgil
Thomson's review of the first US performance of the Eighth (Stokowski)
was devastating. Then Bernstein discovered how to make him "exciting."

Then cooler heads prevailed, and by the 1970s a tradition was emerging
that found the balance; a great deal depends on the conductor. I'll still
swear by Haitink, but Rattle has gotten good notices as well. (My senior
year at Cornell -- 71-72 -- three of us were collecting the three sets
as they came out: I the Haitink, the others the Solti and the Kubelik.
We'd listen to each other's. Kubelik's were the most idiosyncratic --
and they appeared in a very inexpensive budget set some years ago. I
think Polygram still gets full price for Solti, and Haitink remade them
-- I don't know whether the whole set -- in digital, and I think the
earlier set was put on individual CDs but not a single box.) I think it
was EMI made a big box of the Complete Works for the anniversary (b. 1860, d. 1911) mixing modern (a lot of Tennstedt, some Rattle) with
historical recordings, including Klemperer and Walter. Some of the songs
are presented with both piano and orchestral accompaniment. Probably not
still available as such.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-05 17:09:45 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
A lot of people didn't used to like Mahler (when he was conducted by his
own disciples such as Walter, Mitropoulos, and Mengelberg). Virgil
Thomson's review of the first US performance of the Eighth (Stokowski)
was devastating. Then Bernstein discovered how to make him "exciting."
Then cooler heads prevailed, and by the 1970s a tradition was emerging
that found the balance; a great deal depends on the conductor. I'll still
swear by Haitink, but Rattle has gotten good notices as well. (My senior
year at Cornell -- 71-72 -- three of us were collecting the three sets
as they came out: I the Haitink, the others the Solti and the Kubelik.
We'd listen to each other's. Kubelik's were the most idiosyncratic --
and they appeared in a very inexpensive budget set some years ago. I
think Polygram still gets full price for Solti, and Haitink remade them
-- I don't know whether the whole set -- in digital, and I think the
earlier set was put on individual CDs but not a single box.) I think it
was EMI made a big box of the Complete Works for the anniversary (b.
1860, d. 1911) mixing modern (a lot of Tennstedt, some Rattle) with
historical recordings, including Klemperer and Walter. Some of the songs
are presented with both piano and orchestral accompaniment. Probably not
still available as such.
Today's permance in Salzburg is conducted by Andris Nelsons. I hadn't
heard of him, but you probably have as he's musical director of the
Boston Symphony Orchestra.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 18:35:50 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
A lot of people didn't used to like Mahler (when he was conducted by his
own disciples such as Walter, Mitropoulos, and Mengelberg). Virgil
Thomson's review of the first US performance of the Eighth (Stokowski)
was devastating. Then Bernstein discovered how to make him "exciting."
Then cooler heads prevailed, and by the 1970s a tradition was emerging
that found the balance; a great deal depends on the conductor. I'll still
swear by Haitink, but Rattle has gotten good notices as well. (My senior
year at Cornell -- 71-72 -- three of us were collecting the three sets
as they came out: I the Haitink, the others the Solti and the Kubelik.
We'd listen to each other's. Kubelik's were the most idiosyncratic --
and they appeared in a very inexpensive budget set some years ago. I
think Polygram still gets full price for Solti, and Haitink remade them
-- I don't know whether the whole set -- in digital, and I think the
earlier set was put on individual CDs but not a single box.) I think it
was EMI made a big box of the Complete Works for the anniversary (b.
1860, d. 1911) mixing modern (a lot of Tennstedt, some Rattle) with
historical recordings, including Klemperer and Walter. Some of the songs
are presented with both piano and orchestral accompaniment. Probably not
still available as such.
Today's permance in Salzburg is conducted by Andris Nelsons. I hadn't
heard of him, but you probably have as he's musical director of the
Boston Symphony Orchestra.
Nope, to me Boston means Charles Munch, Erich Leinsdorf, and Seiji Ozawa.
Ozawa just retired, but ever since a televised performance of the (of all
things) Schoenberg Piano Concerto, in which he appeared to be frantically
paging through the score trying to find his place, I haven't trusted him.

(And, of course, Arthur Fiedler. The Boston Pops was the Boston Symphony
minus its first-chair players, who would apparently spend their entire
summers at Tanglewood as teachers and performers of chamber music. The
Boston Pops was never the same after John Williams [the movie composer]
took over.)

I don't know whether Bernstein got to conduct any of the players who were
in the NYPhil during Mahler's season there, but he did talk with them and
get their insights; and there's a brief (15 min or so) recorded discussion
by some of them about Mahler as a conductor. It may be a radio broadcast,
and the audio is far from clear. I think it was included in one of the
Bernstein sets.
J. J. Lodder
2018-08-05 21:58:56 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
A lot of people didn't used to like Mahler (when he was conducted by his
own disciples such as Walter, Mitropoulos, and Mengelberg). Virgil
Thomson's review of the first US performance of the Eighth (Stokowski)
was devastating. Then Bernstein discovered how to make him "exciting."
Then cooler heads prevailed, and by the 1970s a tradition was emerging
that found the balance; a great deal depends on the conductor. I'll still
swear by Haitink, but Rattle has gotten good notices as well.
It is hard to do better after Haitink.
You may have noticed that Gatti was thrown out on his ear
by the Concertgebouw Orchestra. (for his #MeToo affairs)
Rumour has it that they also disliked his Mahler,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 02:53:22 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
A lot of people didn't used to like Mahler (when he was conducted by his
own disciples such as Walter, Mitropoulos, and Mengelberg). Virgil
Thomson's review of the first US performance of the Eighth (Stokowski)
was devastating. Then Bernstein discovered how to make him "exciting."
Then cooler heads prevailed, and by the 1970s a tradition was emerging
that found the balance; a great deal depends on the conductor. I'll
still swear by Haitink, but Rattle has gotten good notices as well.
It is hard to do better after Haitink.
You may have noticed that Gatti was thrown out on his ear
by the Concertgebouw Orchestra. (for his #MeToo affairs)
Rumour has it that they also disliked his Mahler,
Nope, don't know anything about that. Just that I was privileged to attend
what was probably Haitink's last appearance ever in New York -- and it was
Mahler's Third, the Saturday performance. (The week before it had been Webern's child-work "Im Sommerwind," the Berg Violin Concerto, and a
luminous Beethoven's Third.)
J. J. Lodder
2018-08-06 08:05:41 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
A lot of people didn't used to like Mahler (when he was conducted by his
own disciples such as Walter, Mitropoulos, and Mengelberg). Virgil
Thomson's review of the first US performance of the Eighth (Stokowski)
was devastating. Then Bernstein discovered how to make him "exciting."
Then cooler heads prevailed, and by the 1970s a tradition was emerging
that found the balance; a great deal depends on the conductor. I'll
still swear by Haitink, but Rattle has gotten good notices as well.
It is hard to do better after Haitink.
You may have noticed that Gatti was thrown out on his ear
by the Concertgebouw Orchestra. (for his #MeToo affairs)
Rumour has it that they also disliked his Mahler,
Nope, don't know anything about that. Just that I was privileged to attend
what was probably Haitink's last appearance ever in New York -- and it was
Mahler's Third, the Saturday performance. (The week before it had been
Webern's child-work "Im Sommerwind," the Berg Violin Concerto, and a
luminous Beethoven's Third.)
Who knows? At 89 Haitink still accepts invitations.
He just says: 'Don't blame me if I drop dead on the way to you',

Jan
Don P
2018-08-05 19:39:12 UTC
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We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete
peasant?
Symphonies may be the least accessible genre in the classical corpus. In
Mahler's (large) oeuvre, his songs and vocal music seem more
approachable. You get the best of both worlds in the Acccentus choir's
version of the famous Adagietto (5th Symphony.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 19:56:15 UTC
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Post by Don P
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete
peasant?
Symphonies may be the least accessible genre in the classical corpus. In
Mahler's (large)
??? FSVO "large." His entire oeuvre occupies 14 disks in the aforementioned
box set, and that includes several duplications. (There's a 15th disk
with numerous historical recordings of one of the songs, both piano and
orchestral versions.)

Compare the Brilliant Classics "Dvorak edition," which on 45 disks manages
to omit a number of chamber works and all but one of the operas. (I don't
know what proportion of the piano works it includes.)
Post by Don P
oeuvre, his songs and vocal music seem more
approachable.
Sorry, "songs and vocal music"? What can that possibly refer to? The only
"vocal music" other than the songs is some of the symphonies and Das Lied,
which is only not called the "ninth symphony" because he was superstitious
about people dying after writing their ninth symphony.
Post by Don P
You get the best of both worlds in the Acccentus choir's
version of the famous Adagietto (5th Symphony.)
Balderdash. It's for solo harp with string accompaniment.
charles
2018-08-05 20:15:22 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant?
Symphonies may be the least accessible genre in the classical corpus.
In Mahler's (large)
??? FSVO "large." His entire oeuvre occupies 14 disks in the
aforementioned box set, and that includes several duplications. (There's
a 15th disk with numerous historical recordings of one of the songs,
both piano and orchestral versions.)
Compare the Brilliant Classics "Dvorak edition," which on 45 disks
manages to omit a number of chamber works and all but one of the operas.
(I don't know what proportion of the piano works it includes.)
My copy of the complete works of Mozart amounts to 170 CDs!
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-05 20:31:55 UTC
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Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant?
Symphonies may be the least accessible genre in the classical corpus.
In Mahler's (large)
??? FSVO "large." His entire oeuvre occupies 14 disks in the
aforementioned box set, and that includes several duplications. (There's
a 15th disk with numerous historical recordings of one of the songs,
both piano and orchestral versions.)
Compare the Brilliant Classics "Dvorak edition," which on 45 disks
manages to omit a number of chamber works and all but one of the operas.
(I don't know what proportion of the piano works it includes.)
My copy of the complete works of Mozart amounts to 170 CDs!
If anyone ever bothered to record the Complete Works of Telemann, it would
be longer than that. Maybe longer than Mozart and JSB put together!
J. J. Lodder
2018-08-05 21:58:55 UTC
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Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant?
Symphonies may be the least accessible genre in the classical corpus.
In Mahler's (large)
??? FSVO "large." His entire oeuvre occupies 14 disks in the
aforementioned box set, and that includes several duplications. (There's
a 15th disk with numerous historical recordings of one of the songs,
both piano and orchestral versions.)
Compare the Brilliant Classics "Dvorak edition," which on 45 disks
manages to omit a number of chamber works and all but one of the operas.
(I don't know what proportion of the piano works it includes.)
My copy of the complete works of Mozart amounts to 170 CDs!
Yes, his oevre is quite small.
Less than one CD, so less than 60 minutes of music,
per month of working life.

Ducks,

Jan
Don P
2018-08-06 13:10:10 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
. . . oeuvre, his songs and vocal music seem more
approachable.
Sorry, "songs and vocal music"? What can that possibly refer to?
By "songs" I mean compositions for a single voice accompanied by a
single instrument, such as the songs published as Lieder und Gesaenge (3
vols.), Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen and the Rueckert lieder. By
vocal music I mean choral music and pieces for one or more voices with
orchestra: Das Klagende Lied, Des Knaben Wunderhorn, Kindertotenlieder,
Das Lied von der Erde and the vocal movements of several symphonies.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You get the best of both worlds in the Acccentus choir's
version of the famous Adagietto (5th Symphony.)
Balderdash. It's for solo harp with string accompaniment.
When not in a hurry, a "choir's version" of a composition seems
reasonably clear. This one can be conveniently heard at

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 13:42:08 UTC
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Post by Don P
Post by Peter T. Daniels
. . . oeuvre, his songs and vocal music seem more
approachable.
Sorry, "songs and vocal music"? What can that possibly refer to?
By "songs" I mean compositions for a single voice accompanied by a
single instrument, such as the songs published as Lieder und Gesaenge (3
vols.), Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen and the Rueckert lieder. By
vocal music I mean choral music and pieces for one or more voices with
orchestra: Das Klagende Lied, Des Knaben Wunderhorn, Kindertotenlieder,
Das Lied von der Erde and the vocal movements of several symphonies.
Every one of which has "Lied" in the title. Being accompanied by orchestra
rather than piano does not cause a work to stop being a song.

Moreover, you are thus claiming that the Second, Third, Fourth, and Eighth
Symphonies are "more approachble" than the symphonies.
Post by Don P
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You get the best of both worlds in the Acccentus choir's
version of the famous Adagietto (5th Symphony.)
Balderdash. It's for solo harp with string accompaniment.
When not in a hurry, a "choir's version" of a composition seems
reasonably clear. This one can be conveniently heard at
http://youtu.be/YA1c9jZmdag
Balderdash. I suppose you also approve of "Switched-On Bach." Or the
insistence that the Bach Chaconne is a "secret code" containing a choral
elegy.
Quinn C
2018-08-06 18:27:38 UTC
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Post by Don P
Post by Peter T. Daniels
. . . oeuvre, his songs and vocal music seem more
approachable.
Sorry, "songs and vocal music"? What can that possibly refer to?
By "songs" I mean compositions for a single voice accompanied by a
single instrument, such as the songs published as Lieder und Gesaenge (3
vols.), Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen and the Rueckert lieder. By
vocal music I mean choral music and pieces for one or more voices with
orchestra: Das Klagende Lied, Des Knaben Wunderhorn, Kindertotenlieder,
Das Lied von der Erde and the vocal movements of several symphonies.
I hope you're aware that most of your examples for non-songs have
"song" ("Lied") in the title. It's not proof of anything, but maybe a
reason to look closer.

I'll try: For me, a song is a short piece for one or a few solo voices
with accompaniment. The "chansons d'Auvergne" by Canteloube, usually
with orchestra, are certainly a collection of songs. The accompaniment
can even be by choir.

Some pieces that fit the description might not be songs for reasons I
can't express clearly at the moment, e.g. Bachiana Brasileira No, 5. It
may play a role that long passages have no words.

Large pieces like cantatas and missas and requiems aren't songs.
Neither are vocal pieces where the choir dominates the solo voice(s),
even if they are arrangements of songs.
--
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-06 18:39:22 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)
Last night, Thirteen showed a documentary in the "Treasures of New York"
series that was a biography of Stanford White. In outlining his life as
one of the first real estate entrepreneurs (he didn't just design them,
he also persuaded clients to build), the narrator, Dick Cavett, said,
"No, I don't mean Donald Trump!" The date of the show? 2014.
Peter Young
2018-08-06 16:07:29 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete
peasant?
Symphonies may be the least accessible genre in the classical corpus. In
Mahler's (large)
??? FSVO "large." His entire oeuvre occupies 14 disks in the aforementioned
box set, and that includes several duplications. (There's a 15th disk
with numerous historical recordings of one of the songs, both piano and
orchestral versions.)
Compare the Brilliant Classics "Dvorak edition," which on 45 disks manages
to omit a number of chamber works and all but one of the operas. (I don't
know what proportion of the piano works it includes.)
Post by Don P
oeuvre, his songs and vocal music seem more
approachable.
Sorry, "songs and vocal music"? What can that possibly refer to? The only
"vocal music" other than the songs is some of the symphonies and Das Lied,
which is only not called the "ninth symphony" because he was superstitious
about people dying after writing their ninth symphony.
Post by Don P
You get the best of both worlds in the Acccentus choir's
version of the famous Adagietto (5th Symphony.)
Balderdash. It's for solo harp with string accompaniment.
More like for sr=trings with a harp background.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Au)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-06 18:40:07 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete
peasant?
Symphonies may be the least accessible genre in the classical corpus. In
Mahler's (large)
??? FSVO "large." His entire oeuvre occupies 14 disks in the aforementioned
box set, and that includes several duplications. (There's a 15th disk
with numerous historical recordings of one of the songs, both piano and
orchestral versions.)
Compare the Brilliant Classics "Dvorak edition," which on 45 disks manages
to omit a number of chamber works and all but one of the operas. (I don't
know what proportion of the piano works it includes.)
Post by Don P
oeuvre, his songs and vocal music seem more
approachable.
Sorry, "songs and vocal music"? What can that possibly refer to? The only
"vocal music" other than the songs is some of the symphonies and Das Lied,
which is only not called the "ninth symphony" because he was superstitious
about people dying after writing their ninth symphony.
Post by Don P
You get the best of both worlds in the Acccentus choir's
version of the famous Adagietto (5th Symphony.)
Balderdash. It's for solo harp with string accompaniment.
More like for sr=trings with a harp background.
Nothing to do with this, but I felt sure that there was a recent post
from you about a quiz from GMHQ (near you, I think), but afterwards I
couldn't find it. Oh dear, I thought they've dragged off to the Tower
of London for revealing a state secret, and deleted all your posts. I'm
glad to see that they've let you out.
--
athel
musika
2018-08-06 20:21:49 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
You get the best of both worlds in the Acccentus choir's
version of the famous Adagietto (5th Symphony.)
Balderdash. It's for solo harp with string accompaniment.
More like for sr=trings with a harp background.
Nothing to do with this, but I felt sure that there was a recent post
from you about a quiz from GMHQ (near you, I think), but afterwards I
couldn't find it. Oh dear, I thought they've dragged off to the Tower of
London for revealing a state secret, and deleted all your posts. I'm
glad to see that they've let you out.
It's GCHQ and that was R Tobin, I believe.
--
Ray
UK
Peter Young
2018-08-06 20:31:26 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete
peasant?
Symphonies may be the least accessible genre in the classical corpus. In
Mahler's (large)
??? FSVO "large." His entire oeuvre occupies 14 disks in the aforementioned
box set, and that includes several duplications. (There's a 15th disk
with numerous historical recordings of one of the songs, both piano and
orchestral versions.)
Compare the Brilliant Classics "Dvorak edition," which on 45 disks manages
to omit a number of chamber works and all but one of the operas. (I don't
know what proportion of the piano works it includes.)
Post by Don P
oeuvre, his songs and vocal music seem more
approachable.
Sorry, "songs and vocal music"? What can that possibly refer to? The only
"vocal music" other than the songs is some of the symphonies and Das Lied,
which is only not called the "ninth symphony" because he was superstitious
about people dying after writing their ninth symphony.
Post by Don P
You get the best of both worlds in the Acccentus choir's
version of the famous Adagietto (5th Symphony.)
Balderdash. It's for solo harp with string accompaniment.
More like for sr=trings with a harp background.
Nothing to do with this, but I felt sure that there was a recent post
from you about a quiz from GMHQ (near you, I think), but afterwards I
couldn't find it. Oh dear, I thought they've dragged off to the Tower
of London for revealing a state secret, and deleted all your posts. I'm
glad to see that they've let you out.
<grin>

I'm surrounded by people who worked, or once worked, for GCHQ, but as far
as I know, I'm not on their list of suspects.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Au)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
charles
2018-08-06 20:59:10 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant?
Symphonies may be the least accessible genre in the classical
corpus. In Mahler's (large)
??? FSVO "large." His entire oeuvre occupies 14 disks in the
aforementioned box set, and that includes several duplications.
(There's a 15th disk with numerous historical recordings of one of
the songs, both piano and orchestral versions.)
Compare the Brilliant Classics "Dvorak edition," which on 45 disks
manages to omit a number of chamber works and all but one of the
operas. (I don't know what proportion of the piano works it includes.)
Post by Don P
oeuvre, his songs and vocal music seem more approachable.
Sorry, "songs and vocal music"? What can that possibly refer to? The
only "vocal music" other than the songs is some of the symphonies and
Das Lied, which is only not called the "ninth symphony" because he
was superstitious about people dying after writing their ninth
symphony.
Post by Don P
You get the best of both worlds in the Acccentus choir's version of
the famous Adagietto (5th Symphony.)
Balderdash. It's for solo harp with string accompaniment.
More like for sr=trings with a harp background.
Nothing to do with this, but I felt sure that there was a recent post
from you about a quiz from GMHQ (near you, I think), but afterwards I
couldn't find it. Oh dear, I thought they've dragged off to the Tower
of London for revealing a state secret, and deleted all your posts. I'm
glad to see that they've let you out.
<grin>
I'm surrounded by people who worked, or once worked, for GCHQ, but as far
as I know, I'm not on their list of suspects.
My daughter 2 has even worked in the doughnut.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
J. J. Lodder
2018-08-07 07:31:28 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Don P
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete
peasant?
Symphonies may be the least accessible genre in the classical corpus. In
Mahler's (large)
??? FSVO "large." His entire oeuvre occupies 14 disks in the
aforementioned box set, and that includes several duplications.
(There's a 15th disk with numerous historical recordings of one of the
songs, both piano and orchestral versions.)
Compare the Brilliant Classics "Dvorak edition," which on 45 disks
manages to omit a number of chamber works and all but one of the
operas. (I don't know what proportion of the piano works it includes.)
Post by Don P
oeuvre, his songs and vocal music seem more approachable.
Sorry, "songs and vocal music"? What can that possibly refer to? The
only "vocal music" other than the songs is some of the symphonies and
Das Lied, which is only not called the "ninth symphony" because he was
superstitious
about people dying after writing their ninth symphony.
Post by Don P
You get the best of both worlds in the Acccentus choir's
version of the famous Adagietto (5th Symphony.)
Balderdash. It's for solo harp with string accompaniment.
More like for sr=trings with a harp background.
Nothing to do with this, but I felt sure that there was a recent post
from you about a quiz from GMHQ (near you, I think), but afterwards I
couldn't find it. Oh dear, I thought they've dragged off to the Tower
of London for revealing a state secret, and deleted all your posts. I'm
glad to see that they've let you out.
<grin>
I'm surrounded by people who worked, or once worked, for GCHQ, but as far
as I know, I'm not on their list of suspects.
Ah! So you are the mole,

Jan
RHDraney
2018-08-05 20:24:14 UTC
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We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete
peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything
about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Now you know how I feel about Chopin: a lot of notes that are
individually meaningless, but when taken together mean absolutely
nothing....r
J. J. Lodder
2018-08-05 21:58:56 UTC
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Post by RHDraney
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete
peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything
about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Now you know how I feel about Chopin: a lot of notes that are
individually meaningless, but when taken together mean absolutely
nothing....r
Who needs meaning in a Nocturne?

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-05 22:51:14 UTC
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We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete
peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything
about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Greetings, fellow peasant.
--
Jerry Friedman
Snidely
2018-08-07 09:04:52 UTC
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Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits of
Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to get
there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete peasant?
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything about the 1st.
All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven. From the connection of a
child's view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots
of quotations of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You
can also find funeral processions.

I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.


Locally[1], the radio station is unlikely to play a complete Mahler or
Bruckner symphony during the day, although the Adagietto (from No. 6,
IIRC) is pretty popular, and sometimes the March gets to slide in.

My introduction to Mahler's smaller-scale songs was piano and soprano
as an introduction to a symphony,, specifically "Rueckert-Lieder" and
the 9th. This was in a concert series by the orchestra I subscribe to.
(A couple of years earlier, they did Bruckner's 9th with an introit by
the Norbertine Fathers of St Michael's Abbey.)

I think the songs (not just "Rueckert-Lieder") should be played more
often.

/dps
--
Ieri, oggi, domani
Snidely
2018-08-07 09:23:58 UTC
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Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits of
Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to get
there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete peasant?
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything about the 1st.
All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven. From the connection of a child's
view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots of quotations
of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You can also find funeral
processions.
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with _Lied
von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than I'm
comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is just
detail in getting there.
Locally[1], the radio station is unlikely to play a complete Mahler or
Bruckner symphony during the day, although the Adagietto (from No. 6, IIRC)
is pretty popular, and sometimes the March gets to slide in.
As does _Blumine_.
Post by Snidely
My introduction to Mahler's smaller-scale songs was piano and soprano as an
introduction to a symphony,, specifically "Rueckert-Lieder" and the 9th.
This was in a concert series by the orchestra I subscribe to. (A couple of
years earlier, they did Bruckner's 9th with an introit by the Norbertine
Fathers of St Michael's Abbey.)
I think the songs (not just "Rueckert-Lieder") should be played more often.
[1] The local radio station was relatively local when I arrived
locally;, where "local" means very large metropolitan area", and large
means "lots of land" and "lots of people".

Since then, it has partnered with a station in another very large
metropolitan area that's about 6 hours away, and while they have their
own hosts, the daytime and overnight programming is shared. The
evening programming differs, and at my end regularly features concerts
by 3 diferent area orchestras, as well as a weeknight host who will
play Mahler and Bruckner, as well as Blitzstein's _Airborne Symphony_
and interviews with composers, conductors, and soloists.

/dps
--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-07 12:12:17 UTC
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Post by Snidely
[1] The local radio station was relatively local when I arrived
locally;, where "local" means very large metropolitan area", and large
means "lots of land" and "lots of people".
Since then, it has partnered with a station in another very large
metropolitan area that's about 6 hours away, and while they have their
own hosts, the daytime and overnight programming is shared. The
evening programming differs, and at my end regularly features concerts
by 3 diferent area orchestras, as well as a weeknight host who will
play Mahler and Bruckner, as well as Blitzstein's _Airborne Symphony_
and interviews with composers, conductors, and soloists.
WFMT used to take five or so American symphony broadcasts each week of the
season, and sometimes you could follow a distinguished guest conductor
doing exactly the same program with three or four of them as he crossed
the country.

For some reason WQXR doesn't want to come to the radios in my house, so I
don't know whether this is still the case. They broadcast the Met each
Saturday afternoon from December to May, and on the other Saturdays they
rebroadcast the live broadcasts from Chicago's Lyric Opera, the Houston
Grand Opera, the L.A. Opera, etc. I never noticed whether the various
companies would typically present the same repertoire in the same season.
(In the case of co-commissions of new works, they usually wouldn't do them
in the same season.)
RHDraney
2018-08-07 21:00:49 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
For some reason WQXR doesn't want to come to the radios in my house, so I
don't know whether this is still the case. They broadcast the Met each
Saturday afternoon from December to May, and on the other Saturdays they
rebroadcast the live broadcasts from Chicago's Lyric Opera, the Houston
Grand Opera, the L.A. Opera, etc. I never noticed whether the various
companies would typically present the same repertoire in the same season.
(In the case of co-commissions of new works, they usually wouldn't do them
in the same season.)
If you're actually interested in listening to WQXR, try listening to
your computer instead of your radio:

http://www.publicradiofan.com/cgibin/station.pl?stationid=18

....r
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-08 03:00:49 UTC
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Post by RHDraney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
For some reason WQXR doesn't want to come to the radios in my house, so I
don't know whether this is still the case. They broadcast the Met each
Saturday afternoon from December to May, and on the other Saturdays they
rebroadcast the live broadcasts from Chicago's Lyric Opera, the Houston
Grand Opera, the L.A. Opera, etc. I never noticed whether the various
companies would typically present the same repertoire in the same season.
(In the case of co-commissions of new works, they usually wouldn't do them
in the same season.)
If you're actually interested in listening to WQXR, try listening to
http://www.publicradiofan.com/cgibin/station.pl?stationid=18
That would require a whole magilla of external speakers, and also that I
turn off WNYC. I can listen to WQXR in the car.

But they have long been a top-40 station -- there used to be two other
classical stations in NYC with far better content. And some years ago,
when Giuliani forced WNYC out of the City budget and the NY Times no
longer wanted to support a radio station, 'QXR got moved up to a lousy
frequency at the very top of the dial, and its old excellent one became
a Spanish pop station.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-07 12:06:29 UTC
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Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits of
Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to get
there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete peasant?
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything about the 1st.
All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven.
For quite understandable reasons.
Post by Snidely
From the connection of a
child's view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots
of quotations of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You
can also find funeral processions.
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.
An interesting view!
Post by Snidely
Locally[1], the radio station is unlikely to play a complete Mahler or
Bruckner symphony during the day, although the Adagietto (from No. 6,
IIRC) is pretty popular, and sometimes the March gets to slide in.
Adagietto from the Fifth Symphony

What is "the March"? Above you said the symphonies incorporate funeral
marches.
Post by Snidely
My introduction to Mahler's smaller-scale songs was piano and soprano
as an introduction to a symphony,, specifically "Rueckert-Lieder" and
the 9th. This was in a concert series by the orchestra I subscribe to.
(A couple of years earlier, they did Bruckner's 9th with an introit by
the Norbertine Fathers of St Michael's Abbey.)
The incomplete Ninth is often given with Bruckner's Te Deum as its "last movement."
Post by Snidely
I think the songs (not just "Rueckert-Lieder") should be played more
often.
Duh.

But they're more difficult than the usual Lied repertoire.
s***@gmail.com
2018-08-08 00:51:44 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits of
Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to get
there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete peasant?
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything about the 1st.
All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven.
For quite understandable reasons.
But predating his diagnosis of heart problems, and also the death of daughter Maria. When was the First Symphony started? It premiered shortly after his parents and sister Leopoldine, but I would expect it to be in progress for some time. The noticle at WP says a year before, in Leipzig.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Snidely
From the connection of a
child's view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots
of quotations of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You
can also find funeral processions.
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.
An interesting view!
Post by Snidely
Locally[1], the radio station is unlikely to play a complete Mahler or
Bruckner symphony during the day, although the Adagietto (from No. 6,
IIRC) is pretty popular, and sometimes the March gets to slide in.
Adagietto from the Fifth Symphony
mea culpa ... I was rushing when I looked it up.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What is "the March"?
Sorry, it's the Scherzo from the same symphony. Found the entry today.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Above you said the symphonies incorporate funeral
marches.
I will be slow to point to specific examples, but funeral /processions/ were quoted ... I would expect this in the 2nd ... and I think some of the klezmer portions fell in this category. Isn't the _Dies Irae_ in there somewhere, too?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Snidely
My introduction to Mahler's smaller-scale songs was piano and soprano
as an introduction to a symphony,, specifically "Rueckert-Lieder" and
the 9th. This was in a concert series by the orchestra I subscribe to.
(A couple of years earlier, they did Bruckner's 9th with an introit by
the Norbertine Fathers of St Michael's Abbey.)
The incomplete Ninth is often given with Bruckner's Te Deum as its "last movement."
Post by Snidely
I think the songs (not just "Rueckert-Lieder") should be played more
often.
Duh.
But they're more difficult than the usual Lied repertoire.
/dps
Jack
2018-08-08 01:26:18 UTC
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Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits of
Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to get
there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete peasant?
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything about the 1st.
All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven.
For quite understandable reasons.
But predating his diagnosis of heart problems, and also the death of daughter Maria. When was the First Symphony started? It premiered shortly after his parents and sister Leopoldine, but I would expect it to be in progress for some time. The noticle at WP says a year before, in Leipzig.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Snidely
From the connection of a
child's view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots
of quotations of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You
can also find funeral processions.
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.
An interesting view!
Post by Snidely
Locally[1], the radio station is unlikely to play a complete Mahler or
Bruckner symphony during the day, although the Adagietto (from No. 6,
IIRC) is pretty popular, and sometimes the March gets to slide in.
Adagietto from the Fifth Symphony
mea culpa ... I was rushing when I looked it up.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What is "the March"?
Sorry, it's the Scherzo from the same symphony. Found the entry today.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Above you said the symphonies incorporate funeral
marches.
I will be slow to point to specific examples, but funeral /processions/ were quoted ... I would expect this in the 2nd ... and I think some of the klezmer portions fell in this category. Isn't the _Dies Irae_ in there somewhere, too?
The first movement of symphony #5 is 'Trauermarsch', funeral march.
The third movement of symphony #1 is 'Hunter's Funeral', on a minor
key 'Frère Jacques'.
--
John
Peter Young
2018-08-08 06:38:22 UTC
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Post by Jack
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits of
Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to get
there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete peasant?
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything about the 1st.
All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven.
For quite understandable reasons.
But predating his diagnosis of heart problems, and also the death of
daughter Maria. When was the First Symphony started? It premiered
shortly after his parents and sister Leopoldine, but I would expect it to
be in progress for some time. The noticle at WP says a year before, in
Leipzig.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Snidely
From the connection of a
child's view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots
of quotations of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You
can also find funeral processions.
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.
An interesting view!
Post by Snidely
Locally[1], the radio station is unlikely to play a complete Mahler or
Bruckner symphony during the day, although the Adagietto (from No. 6,
IIRC) is pretty popular, and sometimes the March gets to slide in.
Adagietto from the Fifth Symphony
mea culpa ... I was rushing when I looked it up.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What is "the March"?
Sorry, it's the Scherzo from the same symphony. Found the entry today.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Above you said the symphonies incorporate funeral
marches.
I will be slow to point to specific examples, but funeral /processions/
were quoted ... I would expect this in the 2nd ... and I think some of the
klezmer portions fell in this category. Isn't the _Dies Irae_ in there
somewhere, too?
The first movement of symphony #5 is 'Trauermarsch', funeral march.
The third movement of symphony #1 is 'Hunter's Funeral', on a minor
key 'Frère Jacques'.
And the recapitulation of the first movement of the ninth feels like a
funeral march.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Au)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-08 03:06:42 UTC
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Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits of
Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to get
there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a complete peasant?
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything about the 1st.
All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven.
For quite understandable reasons.
But predating his diagnosis of heart problems, and also the death of daughter Maria. When was the First Symphony started? It premiered shortly after his parents and sister Leopoldine, but I would expect it to be in progress for some time. The noticle at WP says a year before, in Leipzig.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Snidely
From the connection of a
child's view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots
of quotations of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You
can also find funeral processions.
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.
An interesting view!
Post by Snidely
Locally[1], the radio station is unlikely to play a complete Mahler or
Bruckner symphony during the day, although the Adagietto (from No. 6,
IIRC) is pretty popular, and sometimes the March gets to slide in.
Adagietto from the Fifth Symphony
mea culpa ... I was rushing when I looked it up.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What is "the March"?
Sorry, it's the Scherzo from the same symphony. Found the entry today.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Above you said the symphonies incorporate funeral
marches.
I will be slow to point to specific examples, but funeral /processions/ were quoted ... I would expect this in the 2nd ... and I think some of the klezmer portions fell in this category. Isn't the _Dies Irae_ in there somewhere, too?
I don't know of any offhand, but it turns up in the oddest places: "Swing
your razor high, Sweeney!" The first movement of the Second is the
Trauermarsch, isn't it? That was originally a stand-alone piece, with the
rest, including the vocal portions, added somewhat later, and the score
specifies a five-minute pause between the first and second movements.
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Snidely
My introduction to Mahler's smaller-scale songs was piano and soprano
as an introduction to a symphony,, specifically "Rueckert-Lieder" and
the 9th. This was in a concert series by the orchestra I subscribe to.
(A couple of years earlier, they did Bruckner's 9th with an introit by
the Norbertine Fathers of St Michael's Abbey.)
The incomplete Ninth is often given with Bruckner's Te Deum as its "last movement."
Post by Snidely
I think the songs (not just "Rueckert-Lieder") should be played more
often.
Duh.
But they're more difficult than the usual Lied repertoire.
There's what turns out to be a fairly pointless recording of Das Lied with
all the songs sung by one man. Apparently he even did some concert per-
formances before the recording was made. In the notes he points out how
foolhardy the attempt was.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-08-07 15:56:14 UTC
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Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven. From the connection of a
child's view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots
of quotations of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You
can also find funeral processions.
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.
The people I once knew who liked Mahler tended to like Bruckner as
well, and vice versa. The people (like me) who thought Mahler was
long-winded and boring also thought that Bruckner was long-winded and
boring, and vice versa.
--
athel
Peter Young
2018-08-07 17:03:23 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven. From the connection of a
child's view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots
of quotations of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You
can also find funeral processions.
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.
The people I once knew who liked Mahler tended to like Bruckner as
well, and vice versa. The people (like me) who thought Mahler was
long-winded and boring also thought that Bruckner was long-winded and
boring, and vice versa.
Whereas I get on with most of Mahler, and find Bruckner worse that
long-winded and boring. Apart from some of the motets, that is.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Au)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-07 17:52:51 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Snidely
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.
The people I once knew who liked Mahler tended to like Bruckner as
well, and vice versa. The people (like me) who thought Mahler was
long-winded and boring also thought that Bruckner was long-winded and
boring, and vice versa.
Whereas I get on with most of Mahler, and find Bruckner worse that
long-winded and boring. Apart from some of the motets, that is.
I just wrote that, 48 minutes later!
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-07 17:51:54 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven. From the connection of a
child's view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots
of quotations of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You
can also find funeral processions.
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.
The people I once knew who liked Mahler tended to like Bruckner as
well, and vice versa. The people (like me) who thought Mahler was
long-winded and boring also thought that Bruckner was long-winded and
boring, and vice versa.
That's an antiquated view, dating from the time the two were bracketed together
-- more than one series on "the great composers" devoted a single volume to the
two of them, while the other "great composers" each had a volume of their own.
Aside from the duration of their works, they have little in common. Mahler, for
instance, didn't write organ music for an orchestra that all sounds alike. I do
like his choral works, though.

Speaking of great composers, a few years ago a useful usedbook store -- which
reduces the prices on its stock every six weeks or so -- had not one but two
early editions of Grove's Dictionary, one of them being the Fifth that was the
one in my school library and so was very familiar, and the other being the, I
think, Second (the first posthumous one; the Third?) from ca. 1890. They stayed
there month after month, until they finally fell to about $10 each set, so how
could I resist? I paged all through the earlier one and was fascinated that
Mendelssohn gets about three times as much pageage as Mozart.
Peter Young
2018-08-07 18:51:16 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Snidely
Athel Cornish-Bowden pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small
bits of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for
ever to get there, and is utterly unmemorable. Does that make me a
complete peasant? We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember
anything about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was
some singing.
Mahler is obsessed with death and Heaven. From the connection of a
child's view of Heaven (explicit in one whole symphony), there are lots
of quotations of folk songs, especially ones a child might sing. You
can also find funeral processions.
I find Mahler to be far longer than I'm comfortable with, although with
_Lied von die Erde_ the songs help. I also find Bruckner longer than
I'm comfortable with, but he's only interested in Heaven, and death is
just detail in getting there.
The people I once knew who liked Mahler tended to like Bruckner as
well, and vice versa. The people (like me) who thought Mahler was
long-winded and boring also thought that Bruckner was long-winded and
boring, and vice versa.
That's an antiquated view, dating from the time the two were bracketed
together -- more than one series on "the great composers" devoted a single
volume to the two of them, while the other "great composers" each had a
volume of their own. Aside from the duration of their works, they have
little in common. Mahler, for instance, didn't write organ music for an
orchestra that all sounds alike. I do like his choral works, though.
I don't remember that book, but I did see either a book or an article many
years ago which lumped them together. However, at one point the writer was
at pains to point out the difference between them. The sentence, quoted
from memory, said something like "Mahler spent his life trying to pierce
the veil of sophistication, which was a veil about which Bruckner had no
knowledge".

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Au)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
the Omrud
2018-08-07 17:05:59 UTC
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We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable.
Peasant.
Does that make me a complete peasant?
See above.
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything
about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Blimey. You mean there are people who don't find Mahler's symphonies
thrilling and utterly memorable? I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.
Although I am prepared to have a little sympathy for those who find the
Ninth Symphony rather slow and formless.

I have long cultivated a flawed and simplistic theory that Haydn
introduced the symphony, Beethoven perfected it, then Mahler finished it
off by making his own symphonies nearly impossible to follow (although
Havergal Brian had a go).

FWIW I have Solti's set on Decca.
--
David
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-07 18:16:05 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable.
Peasant.
Does that make me a complete peasant?
See above.
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything
about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Blimey. You mean there are people who don't find Mahler's symphonies
thrilling and utterly memorable? I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.
Although I am prepared to have a little sympathy for those who find the
Ninth Symphony rather slow and formless.
I have long cultivated a flawed and simplistic theory that Haydn
introduced the symphony, Beethoven perfected it, then Mahler finished it
off by making his own symphonies nearly impossible to follow (although
Havergal Brian had a go).
Brian's symphonies (with an exception or two) are among the shortest on record.
I'll cop, however, to owning every recording of The Gothic that's been made,
and to downloading and printing out the score: of the four of them, the best
is the first, Boult's, which used to be on a dim aircheck LP but was somehow
reengineered to near-perfection on the Testament label. (The score was digitized
with the mistakes corrected for an Australian performance some years ago, but
AFAIK that version hasn't been made generally available, and the Australian
performance seems not to have been issued on CD, though who can tell any more.)
Post by the Omrud
FWIW I have Solti's set on Decca.
Try Haitink (the first set; I can't vouch for the digital remake). He has such
a way with the Luftpause -- especially during the horn arpeggio in the slow
movement of Beethoven's Ninth ... but I digress -- there's one toward the end
of the Eighth that is utterly devastating.
Peter Young
2018-08-07 18:11:31 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable.
Peasant.
Does that make me a complete peasant?
See above.
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything
about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Blimey. You mean there are people who don't find Mahler's symphonies
thrilling and utterly memorable? I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.
Although I am prepared to have a little sympathy for those who find the
Ninth Symphony rather slow and formless.
I have long cultivated a flawed and simplistic theory that Haydn
introduced the symphony, Beethoven perfected it, then Mahler finished it
off by making his own symphonies nearly impossible to follow (although
Havergal Brian had a go).
Wot, no Elgar?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Au)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
the Omrud
2018-08-08 16:47:08 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Peter Young
Post by the Omrud
We're listening to Mahler's 2nd Symphony on Arte. I find very small bits
of Mahler OK, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere, it takes for ever to
get there, and is utterly unmemorable.
Peasant.
Does that make me a complete peasant?
See above.
We're now on the 3rd movement, and I don't remember anything
about the 1st. All I remember about the 2nd is that there was some singing.
Blimey. You mean there are people who don't find Mahler's symphonies
thrilling and utterly memorable? I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.
Although I am prepared to have a little sympathy for those who find the
Ninth Symphony rather slow and formless.
I have long cultivated a flawed and simplistic theory that Haydn
introduced the symphony, Beethoven perfected it, then Mahler finished it
off by making his own symphonies nearly impossible to follow (although
Havergal Brian had a go).
Wot, no Elgar?
Also, no Vaughan Williams. I said it was simplistic.
--
David
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