Discussion:
Four dos
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Harrison Hill
2018-04-30 12:57:29 UTC
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"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...

...from today's Metro Newspaper.

Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Tony Cooper
2018-04-30 13:12:23 UTC
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On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?

Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-04-30 14:47:23 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
Harrison Hill
2018-04-30 15:04:11 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
I've attended simply dozens of hairdressing parties! I don't
suppose Tony is being sarcastic in any way, but it took me a few
moments to understand what the "four dos" might be.

How about "fashion statements" and "overall looks"?
Peter T. Daniels
2018-04-30 16:02:58 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
I've attended simply dozens of hairdressing parties! I don't
suppose Tony is being sarcastic in any way, but it took me a few
moments to understand what the "four dos" might be.
How about "fashion statements" and "overall looks"?
I imagine "fashion statements" refers to clothing, and "overall looks" to
overall looks.

Note the failed rhetorical sequence three - four - five - five.
Tony Cooper
2018-04-30 18:40:37 UTC
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On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
I've attended simply dozens of hairdressing parties!
That, to the best of my knowledge, is not a event that has reached
these shores. I'm assuming you're using "hairdressing" to mean
"barbering" (the cutting of men's hair) in the British sense rather
than the styling and cutting of women's hair which would be the
American sense of "hairdressing".

The barber shop is, evidently, a social center in African American
culture. But, for the most part, non-African Americans go in, get
their hair cut, and leave. No party.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
David Kleinecke
2018-04-30 18:47:51 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
I've attended simply dozens of hairdressing parties!
That, to the best of my knowledge, is not a event that has reached
these shores. I'm assuming you're using "hairdressing" to mean
"barbering" (the cutting of men's hair) in the British sense rather
than the styling and cutting of women's hair which would be the
American sense of "hairdressing".
The barber shop is, evidently, a social center in African American
culture. But, for the most part, non-African Americans go in, get
their hair cut, and leave. No party.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
It's taken a long lifetime but I have finally gotten around
to "shaving" my head. Not actually shaving - using barber's
sheers to cut my hair down to rubble and letting it go for
a couple of weeks before sheering again.

Of course, my hairline was receding and this isn't that much
of change.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-04-30 20:14:34 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this
is grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos"
are one of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
I've attended simply dozens of hairdressing parties!
That, to the best of my knowledge, is not a event that has reached
these shores. I'm assuming you're using "hairdressing" to mean
"barbering" (the cutting of men's hair) in the British sense rather
than the styling and cutting of women's hair which would be the
American sense of "hairdressing".
The barber shop is, evidently, a social center in African American
culture. But, for the most part, non-African Americans go in, get
their hair cut, and leave. No party.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
It's taken a long lifetime but I have finally gotten around
to "shaving" my head. Not actually shaving - using barber's
sheers to cut my hair down to rubble and letting it go for
a couple of weeks before sheering again.
Of course, my hairline was receding and this isn't that much
of change.
But at what cost?
My guess: dah-di-di-dah-di, 2 bits
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
John Varela
2018-05-01 00:23:28 UTC
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On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:40:37 UTC, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
I've attended simply dozens of hairdressing parties!
That, to the best of my knowledge, is not a event that has reached
these shores. I'm assuming you're using "hairdressing" to mean
"barbering" (the cutting of men's hair) in the British sense rather
than the styling and cutting of women's hair which would be the
American sense of "hairdressing".
The barber shop is, evidently, a social center in African American
culture. But, for the most part, non-African Americans go in, get
their hair cut, and leave. No party.
Barbershop quartet singing is pretty much a white man's gig.

In 1963 we moved from the Boston area to an apartment in Annandale,
Virginia. Annandale is inside the Beltway and today is considered a
close-in suburb, but in 1963 it still had some aspects of its
small-town origin. One of those was the barber shop. Whenever I went
in there would be a few (what I then thought were) old men hanging
out. I recall that high school sports was a big topic of
conversation. I'll bet that's still commonplace in what's left of
small-town America.
--
John Varela
Cheryl
2018-05-01 09:06:16 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:04:11 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
I've attended simply dozens of hairdressing parties!
That, to the best of my knowledge, is not a event that has reached
these shores. I'm assuming you're using "hairdressing" to mean
"barbering" (the cutting of men's hair) in the British sense rather
than the styling and cutting of women's hair which would be the
American sense of "hairdressing".
The barber shop is, evidently, a social center in African American
culture. But, for the most part, non-African Americans go in, get
their hair cut, and leave. No party.
I've never attended anything that could be called a hairdressing party.
I believe that when I was a teenager, fashion-minded teenaged girls (of
whom I was not one) would get together and try out hair and (more often)
makeup) styles, but these weren't called parties, and as far as I know
entirely lacked such party-like elements like food.
--
Cheryl
RH Draney
2018-05-01 12:06:48 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
I've never attended anything that could be called a hairdressing party.
I believe that when I was a teenager, fashion-minded teenaged girls (of
whom I was not one) would get together and try out hair and (more often)
makeup) styles, but these weren't called parties, and as far as I know
entirely lacked such party-like elements like food.
A former girlfriend of mine once thought it would be a nice idea to
treat me to a facial, and discovered at least one reason that men don't
normally get them: when I tried to apply anything running cotton balls
over my face in the direction she insisted, my beard (not yet even at 5
o'clock shadow stage that evening) tore the cotton to shreds....r
Quinn C
2018-05-01 21:38:36 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Cheryl
I've never attended anything that could be called a hairdressing party.
I believe that when I was a teenager, fashion-minded teenaged girls (of
whom I was not one) would get together and try out hair and (more often)
makeup) styles, but these weren't called parties, and as far as I know
entirely lacked such party-like elements like food.
A former girlfriend of mine once thought it would be a nice idea to
treat me to a facial, and discovered at least one reason that men don't
normally get them: when I tried to apply anything running cotton balls
over my face in the direction she insisted, my beard (not yet even at 5
o'clock shadow stage that evening) tore the cotton to shreds....r
That's only a reason not to use cotton balls, for which there are
various alternatives.
--
... English-speaking people have managed to get along a good many
centuries with the present supply of pronouns; ... It is so old and
venerable an argument ... it's equivalent was used when gas, railways
and steamboats were proposed. -- Findlay (OH) Jeffersonian (1875)
Tak To
2018-05-09 20:16:53 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Cheryl
I've never attended anything that could be called a hairdressing party.
I believe that when I was a teenager, fashion-minded teenaged girls (of
whom I was not one) would get together and try out hair and (more often)
makeup) styles, but these weren't called parties, and as far as I know
entirely lacked such party-like elements like food.
A former girlfriend of mine once thought it would be a nice idea to
treat me to a facial, and discovered at least one reason that men don't
normally get them: when I tried to apply anything running cotton balls
over my face in the direction she insisted, my beard (not yet even at 5
o'clock shadow stage that evening) tore the cotton to shreds....r
My daughters are into using pore strips[1] for removing the
blackheads on their noses. One time they put one on my nose
and to their surprise my nose was cleaner than theirs. I
figured this was because I wash my face at least daily with
soap.

[1] One of the leading brands is Bioré, which to my surprised
is actually own by the Japanese cosmetics conglomerate KAO.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Quinn C
2018-05-09 22:50:46 UTC
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Post by Tak To
Post by RH Draney
Post by Cheryl
I've never attended anything that could be called a hairdressing party.
I believe that when I was a teenager, fashion-minded teenaged girls (of
whom I was not one) would get together and try out hair and (more often)
makeup) styles, but these weren't called parties, and as far as I know
entirely lacked such party-like elements like food.
A former girlfriend of mine once thought it would be a nice idea to
treat me to a facial, and discovered at least one reason that men don't
normally get them: when I tried to apply anything running cotton balls
over my face in the direction she insisted, my beard (not yet even at 5
o'clock shadow stage that evening) tore the cotton to shreds....r
My daughters are into using pore strips[1] for removing the
blackheads on their noses. One time they put one on my nose
and to their surprise my nose was cleaner than theirs. I
figured this was because I wash my face at least daily with
soap.
[1] One of the leading brands is Bioré, which to my surprised
is actually own by the Japanese cosmetics conglomerate KAO.
I was very familiar with that as the name Bioré was pretty ubiquitous
in Japan 20 years ago, and I hadn't seen it in the West before that.

I wash my face with face scrub (currently one from Bioré, as it was on
sale) once a week. Daily use is recommended, but that's just
money-making.
--
Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct
in which the score is kept.
-- Doug Larson
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-01 13:24:20 UTC
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Post by Cheryl
I believe that when I was a teenager, fashion-minded teenaged girls (of
whom I was not one) would get together and try out hair and (more often)
makeup) styles, but these weren't called parties, and as far as I know
entirely lacked such party-like elements like food.
Oy!
Whiskers
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
But do the manufacturers concerned try to sell a potion or gadget
to do it?

I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
--
^^^^^^^^^^
Whiskers
~~~~~~~~~~


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Ross
2018-04-30 23:41:47 UTC
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Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
But do the manufacturers concerned try to sell a potion or gadget
to do it?
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-01 20:11:49 UTC
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...
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ross
2018-05-01 20:48:32 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
Ah yes; and the use with reference to men's hair is not a recent development: Green's citations take it back to the 60s ("a kid with a dew rag on his head",
1966).
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-01 20:50:57 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
Ah yes; and the use with reference to men's hair is not a recent development: Green's citations take it back to the 60s ("a kid with a dew rag on his head",
1966).
Now that I look at the OED citations a little closer--its first one is
about "do-rag brothers", who were giving way to "the natural man" in
1968.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2018-05-02 16:16:08 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
Ah yes; and the use with reference to men's hair is not a recent
development: Green's citations take it back to the 60s ("a kid with
a dew rag on his head", 1966).
Given that, is it clear that the "do" part actually refers to "hairdo"?
I also see it spelled "doo rag" and "durag", so at the very least, many
people don't see the connection.
--
Woman is a pair of ovaries with a human being attached, whereas
man is a human being furnished with a pair of testes.
-- Rudolf Virchow
Ross
2018-05-02 20:47:46 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
Ah yes; and the use with reference to men's hair is not a recent
development: Green's citations take it back to the 60s ("a kid with
a dew rag on his head", 1966).
Given that, is it clear that the "do" part actually refers to "hairdo"?
I also see it spelled "doo rag" and "durag", so at the very least, many
people don't see the connection.
Yes, many people don't, but the connection with hair-processing is stated
explicitly, e.g. by Smitherman. The practice was common, and we have
good evidence of "do" for "hair-do". And I haven't heard of a better etymology.
Tony Cooper
2018-05-02 21:15:11 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
Ah yes; and the use with reference to men's hair is not a recent
development: Green's citations take it back to the 60s ("a kid with
a dew rag on his head", 1966).
Given that, is it clear that the "do" part actually refers to "hairdo"?
I also see it spelled "doo rag" and "durag", so at the very least, many
people don't see the connection.
Yes, many people don't, but the connection with hair-processing is stated
explicitly, e.g. by Smitherman. The practice was common, and we have
good evidence of "do" for "hair-do". And I haven't heard of a better etymology.
Dunno about the etymology, but I think the start of the popular
wearing of a do-rag was by African Americans with "Jheri curls", and
they were popular in the 1980s. The Jheri curl was "invented" by
Jheri Redding, and was a permed hair style that resulted in a "glossy,
loosely curled look". There was a "curl activator" product that was
applied to the hair daily, and the do-rag protected the hair from
gathering dust and dirt during the working day.

I never had occasion to touch a head of Jheri curls, but they looked
kinda sticky.

When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion accessory
to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley riders) as either
a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap would, or a layer
between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.

I see them on bikers all the time:
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A

https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-PSd2Rcg/A

Not just male Harley-types, either:

https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-mLWsqv2/A

Wiki says the do-rag "re-emerged as an urban fashion trend" in the
early 2000s, but I don't think they ever went away between the 1980s
and 2000.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-05-03 10:02:48 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 9:55:51 AM UTC+12, Whiskers
...
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of
the population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus
feel justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and
several more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the
last referring to men.
Ah yes; and the use with reference to men's hair is not a recent
development: Green's citations take it back to the 60s ("a kid
with a dew rag on his head", 1966).
Given that, is it clear that the "do" part actually refers to
"hairdo"? I also see it spelled "doo rag" and "durag", so at the
very least, many people don't see the connection.
Yes, many people don't, but the connection with hair-processing is
stated explicitly, e.g. by Smitherman. The practice was common, and we
have good evidence of "do" for "hair-do". And I haven't heard of a
better etymology.
Dunno about the etymology, but I think the start of the popular
wearing of a do-rag was by African Americans with "Jheri curls", and
they were popular in the 1980s. The Jheri curl was "invented" by
Jheri Redding, and was a permed hair style that resulted in a "glossy,
loosely curled look". There was a "curl activator" product that was
applied to the hair daily, and the do-rag protected the hair from
gathering dust and dirt during the working day.
Here's a BRITISH example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Ogden
Post by Tony Cooper
I never had occasion to touch a head of Jheri curls, but they looked
kinda sticky.
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion accessory
to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley riders) as either
a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap would, or a layer
between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-PSd2Rcg/A
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-mLWsqv2/A
Wiki says the do-rag "re-emerged as an urban fashion trend" in the
early 2000s, but I don't think they ever went away between the 1980s
and 2000.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-03 10:39:11 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Thu, 3 May 2018 10:02:48 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 9:55:51 AM UTC+12, Whiskers
...
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of
the population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus
feel justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and
several more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the
last referring to men.
Ah yes; and the use with reference to men's hair is not a recent
development: Green's citations take it back to the 60s ("a kid
with a dew rag on his head", 1966).
Given that, is it clear that the "do" part actually refers to
"hairdo"? I also see it spelled "doo rag" and "durag", so at the
very least, many people don't see the connection.
Yes, many people don't, but the connection with hair-processing is
stated explicitly, e.g. by Smitherman. The practice was common, and we
have good evidence of "do" for "hair-do". And I haven't heard of a
better etymology.
Dunno about the etymology, but I think the start of the popular
wearing of a do-rag was by African Americans with "Jheri curls", and
they were popular in the 1980s. The Jheri curl was "invented" by
Jheri Redding, and was a permed hair style that resulted in a "glossy,
loosely curled look". There was a "curl activator" product that was
applied to the hair daily, and the do-rag protected the hair from
gathering dust and dirt during the working day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Ogden
I'd describe that as a "headscarf".

The Wikiparticle on Headscarf mentions Hilda Ogden:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf

Headscarves or head scarves are scarves covering most or all of the
top of a person's, usually women, hair and her head, leaving the
face uncovered. A headscarf is formed of a triangular or square
cloth folded into a triangle piece of fabric, with which the head is
covered. Apart from the keffiyeh of the Middle East, headscarves
worn by men are much less common and usually for practical purposes
<snip>

In popular culture
Hilda Ogden, popular character from the UK soap opera Coronation
Street portrayed by Jean Alexander, became famous throughout the
nation for combining a headscarf with hair curlers. So famous was
she that, in 1982, she came fourth behind the Queen Mother, Queen
Elizabeth II, and Diana, Princess of Wales in a poll of the most
recognisable women in Britain.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Snidely
2018-05-08 08:08:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 3 May 2018 10:02:48 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 9:55:51 AM UTC+12, Whiskers
...
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of
the population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus
feel justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and
several more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the
last referring to men.
Ah yes; and the use with reference to men's hair is not a recent
development: Green's citations take it back to the 60s ("a kid
with a dew rag on his head", 1966).
Given that, is it clear that the "do" part actually refers to
"hairdo"? I also see it spelled "doo rag" and "durag", so at the
very least, many people don't see the connection.
Yes, many people don't, but the connection with hair-processing is
stated explicitly, e.g. by Smitherman. The practice was common, and we
have good evidence of "do" for "hair-do". And I haven't heard of a
better etymology.
Dunno about the etymology, but I think the start of the popular
wearing of a do-rag was by African Americans with "Jheri curls", and
they were popular in the 1980s. The Jheri curl was "invented" by
Jheri Redding, and was a permed hair style that resulted in a "glossy,
loosely curled look". There was a "curl activator" product that was
applied to the hair daily, and the do-rag protected the hair from
gathering dust and dirt during the working day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Ogden
I'd describe that as a "headscarf".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf
Headscarves or head scarves are scarves covering most or all of the
top of a person's, usually women, hair and her head, leaving the
face uncovered. A headscarf is formed of a triangular or square
cloth folded into a triangle piece of fabric, with which the head is
covered. Apart from the keffiyeh of the Middle East, headscarves
worn by men are much less common and usually for practical purposes
<snip>
In popular culture
Hilda Ogden, popular character from the UK soap opera Coronation
Street portrayed by Jean Alexander, became famous throughout the
nation for combining a headscarf with hair curlers. So famous was
she that, in 1982, she came fourth behind the Queen Mother, Queen
Elizabeth II, and Diana, Princess of Wales in a poll of the most
recognisable women in Britain.
From what I've seen, a guy's do-rag is often a bandana.
<URL:https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8987378176/hB0CC4080/>
I have bandanas, but I use them as dust masks when cleaning stalls.


/dps
--
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
RH Draney
2018-05-08 10:42:05 UTC
Reply
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Post by Snidely
From what I've seen, a guy's do-rag is often a bandana.
<URL:https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8987378176/hB0CC4080/>
I have bandanas, but I use them as dust masks when cleaning stalls.
I buy most of my bandanas from http://www.wholesaleforeveryone.com/
...as you can see from the website menu, doo rags are considered a
separate category from bandanas, and handkerchiefs are distinct from
both....r
Peter Moylan
2018-05-03 15:36:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.

Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-03 15:52:15 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
--
It's a rag wrapped around your toes* as an alternative to socks.
Thus it's associated with the poor and the vagrant. Thus it's
expected to be filthy, smelly, and possibly caked with pus or
blood. Bleedin' obvious, really!

* any or all parts of the foot really
Quinn C
2018-05-03 16:44:25 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Moylan
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
--
It's a rag wrapped around your toes* as an alternative to socks.
Thus it's associated with the poor and the vagrant. Thus it's
expected to be filthy, smelly, and possibly caked with pus or
blood. Bleedin' obvious, really!
* any or all parts of the foot really
"Toerag"is not mentioned as an alternative name at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footwraps>
--
XML combines all the inefficiency of text-based formats with most
of the unreadability of binary formats.
Oren Tirosh, comp.lang.python
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-03 20:18:51 UTC
Reply
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On Thu, 3 May 2018 12:44:25 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Moylan
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
--
It's a rag wrapped around your toes* as an alternative to socks.
Thus it's associated with the poor and the vagrant. Thus it's
expected to be filthy, smelly, and possibly caked with pus or
blood. Bleedin' obvious, really!
* any or all parts of the foot really
"Toerag"is not mentioned as an alternative name at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footwraps>
This says:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/toerag

Origin
Mid 19th century: originally denoting a rag wrapped round the foot
as a sock or, by extension, the wearer (such as a vagrant).
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Harrison Hill
2018-05-03 16:48:34 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
--
It's a rag wrapped around your toes* as an alternative to socks.
Thus it's associated with the poor and the vagrant. Thus it's
expected to be filthy, smelly, and possibly caked with pus or
blood. Bleedin' obvious, really!
* any or all parts of the foot really
Another phrase is "jam rag" which I've not heard since I was a teenager.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-03 21:11:38 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
--
It's a rag wrapped around your toes* as an alternative to socks.
Thus it's associated with the poor and the vagrant. Thus it's
expected to be filthy, smelly, and possibly caked with pus or
blood. Bleedin' obvious, really!
* any or all parts of the foot really
Another phrase is "jam rag" which I've not heard since I was a teenager.
That's not found on your foot (unless you're very clumsy or unlucky!)
Tony Cooper
2018-05-04 01:18:10 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.

Not at all related to "toe", but it is a rag.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tony Cooper
2018-05-04 01:23:44 UTC
Reply
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On Thu, 03 May 2018 21:18:10 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
Not at all related to "toe", but it is a rag.
Sorry about the above. I thought you were talking a do-rag being
uncomplimentary.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
RH Draney
2018-05-04 05:28:09 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
The term "rag" may itself indicate an uncomplimentary attitude...George
M Cohan was forced to rewrite his song "The Grand Old Rag" to make it
less chummy and disrespectful to the starzenstripes...(I've tried to
fool people in the past by telling them that Scott Joplin was similarly
uncomplimentary to the Maple Leaf when he wrote his own flag piece)....r
Quinn C
2018-05-04 18:46:58 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."

I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.

(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
--
Bug:
An elusive creature living in a program that makes it incorrect.
The activity of "debugging," or removing bugs from a program, ends
when people get tired of doing it, not when the bugs are removed.
Harrison Hill
2018-05-04 19:03:45 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
A "class" judgement, and that isn't a criticism.

Interesting that Athel and my mother both reacted
to Edid Blyton by using the same class judgement.
Tony Cooper
2018-05-04 19:18:14 UTC
Reply
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On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.

The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-04 21:04:22 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Really? Is Marshall Mathers ("Eminem") any more welcome in those environments
than the individuals you're thinking of?
Tony Cooper
2018-05-04 22:39:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Really? Is Marshall Mathers ("Eminem") any more welcome in those environments
than the individuals you're thinking of?
The comments remind me of the Travon Martin case. Travon was a young,
black teenager returning from a convenience store after buying a box
of Skittles (candy) He was on his way home to an apartment in which
he was staying, when George Zimmerman saw him. Zimmerman was a
non-authorized (self-appointed) security guard for the apartment
complex.

Travon, unfortunately, was wearing a hoodie. It was February, and
cold. George assumed that a black teenager wearing a hoodie must be
up to no good and shot and killed him. Zimmerman was found not guilty
and went free.

https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Sanford-2012-The-Media/i-GnZ2s73/A

I frequently wear a hoodie sweatshirt in cold weather. But, no one
thinks a white face under a hoodie is dangerous. I'm sure Eminem
would be safe, too. It's the complexion, not the clothing.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-04 23:18:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Really? Is Marshall Mathers ("Eminem") any more welcome in those environments
than the individuals you're thinking of?
The comments remind me of the Travon Martin case. Travon was a young,
black teenager returning from a convenience store after buying a box
of Skittles (candy) He was on his way home to an apartment in which
he was staying, when George Zimmerman saw him. Zimmerman was a
non-authorized (self-appointed) security guard for the apartment
complex.
Travon, unfortunately, was wearing a hoodie. It was February, and
cold. George assumed that a black teenager wearing a hoodie must be
up to no good and shot and killed him. Zimmerman was found not guilty
and went free.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Sanford-2012-The-Media/i-GnZ2s73/A
I frequently wear a hoodie sweatshirt in cold weather. But, no one
thinks a white face under a hoodie is dangerous. I'm sure Eminem
would be safe, too. It's the complexion, not the clothing.
Wow. The Floridian goes right for the racist interpretation.

What does Travon Martin's hoodie have to do with Eminem's do-rag and saggy
trousers?
Tony Cooper
2018-05-05 01:38:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 4 May 2018 16:18:04 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Really? Is Marshall Mathers ("Eminem") any more welcome in those environments
than the individuals you're thinking of?
The comments remind me of the Travon Martin case. Travon was a young,
black teenager returning from a convenience store after buying a box
of Skittles (candy) He was on his way home to an apartment in which
he was staying, when George Zimmerman saw him. Zimmerman was a
non-authorized (self-appointed) security guard for the apartment
complex.
Travon, unfortunately, was wearing a hoodie. It was February, and
cold. George assumed that a black teenager wearing a hoodie must be
up to no good and shot and killed him. Zimmerman was found not guilty
and went free.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Sanford-2012-The-Media/i-GnZ2s73/A
I frequently wear a hoodie sweatshirt in cold weather. But, no one
thinks a white face under a hoodie is dangerous. I'm sure Eminem
would be safe, too. It's the complexion, not the clothing.
Wow. The Floridian goes right for the racist interpretation.
Of course. That's the *only* interpretation possible for the comment
about not wearing the do-rag to the mall.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What does Travon Martin's hoodie have to do with Eminem's do-rag and saggy
trousers?
C'mon, now, we know you're slow on the pick-up unless the subject is
Broadway musicals, but it's the visual. A black person in a hoodie, a
do-rag, saggy pants, underwear visible about the pants, unlaced
sneakers, is visualized as a thug. A white person, in the same garb,
is not. That's racial stereotyping.

Eminem could walk down the street dressed like that, and he'll get
some stares. A black person walking down the street dressed like that
will cause some people to cross to the other side of the street.

You think Zimmerman would have shot Eminem?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-05 02:31:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 16:18:04 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Really? Is Marshall Mathers ("Eminem") any more welcome in those environments
than the individuals you're thinking of?
The comments remind me of the Travon Martin case. Travon was a young,
black teenager returning from a convenience store after buying a box
of Skittles (candy) He was on his way home to an apartment in which
he was staying, when George Zimmerman saw him. Zimmerman was a
non-authorized (self-appointed) security guard for the apartment
complex.
Travon, unfortunately, was wearing a hoodie. It was February, and
cold. George assumed that a black teenager wearing a hoodie must be
up to no good and shot and killed him. Zimmerman was found not guilty
and went free.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Sanford-2012-The-Media/i-GnZ2s73/A
I frequently wear a hoodie sweatshirt in cold weather. But, no one
thinks a white face under a hoodie is dangerous. I'm sure Eminem
would be safe, too. It's the complexion, not the clothing.
Wow. The Floridian goes right for the racist interpretation.
Of course. That's the *only* interpretation possible for the comment
about not wearing the do-rag to the mall.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What does Travon Martin's hoodie have to do with Eminem's do-rag and saggy
trousers?
C'mon, now, we know you're slow on the pick-up unless the subject is
Broadway musicals, but it's the visual. A black person in a hoodie, a
do-rag, saggy pants, underwear visible about the pants, unlaced
sneakers,
Travon had none of those but the first. Go impose your internalized racism
somewhere else.
Post by Tony Cooper
is visualized as a thug. A white person, in the same garb,
is not. That's racial stereotyping.
Do you ever go among any real people besides biker gangs?
Post by Tony Cooper
Eminem could walk down the street dressed like that, and he'll get
some stares. A black person walking down the street dressed like that
will cause some people to cross to the other side of the street.
You think Zimmerman would have shot Eminem?
I think the lighting wasn't too good. So, yes.
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-05 06:48:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Really? Is Marshall Mathers ("Eminem") any more welcome in those environments
than the individuals you're thinking of?
The comments remind me of the Travon Martin case. Travon was a young,
black teenager returning from a convenience store after buying a box
of Skittles (candy) He was on his way home to an apartment in which
he was staying, when George Zimmerman saw him. Zimmerman was a
non-authorized (self-appointed) security guard for the apartment
complex.
Travon, unfortunately, was wearing a hoodie. It was February, and
cold. George assumed that a black teenager wearing a hoodie must be
up to no good and shot and killed him. Zimmerman was found not guilty
and went free.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Sanford-2012-The-Media/i-GnZ2s73/A
I frequently wear a hoodie sweatshirt in cold weather. But, no one
thinks a white face under a hoodie is dangerous. I'm sure Eminem
would be safe, too. It's the complexion, not the clothing.
Depending on time and place.

A few years ago as I was walking down a busy retail street after dark,
an older man stepped into my path an, about two inches from my face,
shouted, "Drug dealer!".

I was then and am now a white guy with white hair and beard, well past
60, in a city that's majority white. But it was a chilly evening and,
walking home from work, I put the hood part of my hoodie up over my head
to stay warm. The hoodie was all this guy needed to judge me.

My only point is that "It's the complexion, not the clothing" doesn't
apply in all times or all places.

bill
David Kleinecke
2018-05-05 17:11:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Really? Is Marshall Mathers ("Eminem") any more welcome in those environments
than the individuals you're thinking of?
The comments remind me of the Travon Martin case. Travon was a young,
black teenager returning from a convenience store after buying a box
of Skittles (candy) He was on his way home to an apartment in which
he was staying, when George Zimmerman saw him. Zimmerman was a
non-authorized (self-appointed) security guard for the apartment
complex.
Travon, unfortunately, was wearing a hoodie. It was February, and
cold. George assumed that a black teenager wearing a hoodie must be
up to no good and shot and killed him. Zimmerman was found not guilty
and went free.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Sanford-2012-The-Media/i-GnZ2s73/A
I frequently wear a hoodie sweatshirt in cold weather. But, no one
thinks a white face under a hoodie is dangerous. I'm sure Eminem
would be safe, too. It's the complexion, not the clothing.
Depending on time and place.
A few years ago as I was walking down a busy retail street after dark,
an older man stepped into my path an, about two inches from my face,
shouted, "Drug dealer!".
I was then and am now a white guy with white hair and beard, well past
60, in a city that's majority white. But it was a chilly evening and,
walking home from work, I put the hood part of my hoodie up over my head
to stay warm. The hoodie was all this guy needed to judge me.
My only point is that "It's the complexion, not the clothing" doesn't
apply in all times or all places.
bill
You forgot to deny you are a drug dealer,
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-05 22:03:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by b***@shaw.ca
A few years ago as I was walking down a busy retail street after dark,
an older man stepped into my path an, about two inches from my face,
shouted, "Drug dealer!".
I was then and am now a white guy with white hair and beard, well past
60, in a city that's majority white. But it was a chilly evening and,
walking home from work, I put the hood part of my hoodie up over my head
to stay warm. The hoodie was all this guy needed to judge me.
My only point is that "It's the complexion, not the clothing" doesn't
apply in all times or all places.
You forgot to deny you are a drug dealer,
I don't recall whether I managed to utter any words at all,
I was so surprised. Probably not. He seemed upset enough
that any response from me might have led to a fistfight.

I think that was during the Vancouver Winter Olympics in
February 2010. I'd just finished a shift editing copy
on the Vancouver Sun's city desk. The city was full of
visitors and the main streets teemed with pedestrians.

bill
Tak To
2018-05-13 02:21:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Really? Is Marshall Mathers ("Eminem") any more welcome in those environments
than the individuals you're thinking of?
The comments remind me of the Travon Martin case. Travon was a young,
black teenager returning from a convenience store after buying a box
of Skittles (candy) He was on his way home to an apartment in which
he was staying, when George Zimmerman saw him. Zimmerman was a
non-authorized (self-appointed) security guard for the apartment
complex.
Travon, unfortunately, was wearing a hoodie. It was February, and
cold. George assumed that a black teenager wearing a hoodie must be
up to no good and shot and killed him. Zimmerman was found not guilty
and went free.
This seems to be overly simplified. Oh well, those interested
in the original case or whether Tony's account was overly simplified
can start at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
Post by Tony Cooper
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Sanford-2012-The-Media/i-GnZ2s73/A
I frequently wear a hoodie sweatshirt in cold weather. But, no one
thinks a white face under a hoodie is dangerous. I'm sure Eminem
would be safe, too. It's the complexion, not the clothing.
Quite irrelevant since Zimmerman did not actually claim that
Martin's attire was the issue. It was a straw man brought up
by the lawyer of Martin's family. (Or was that your point?)
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tony Cooper
2018-05-13 04:16:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Really? Is Marshall Mathers ("Eminem") any more welcome in those environments
than the individuals you're thinking of?
The comments remind me of the Travon Martin case. Travon was a young,
black teenager returning from a convenience store after buying a box
of Skittles (candy) He was on his way home to an apartment in which
he was staying, when George Zimmerman saw him. Zimmerman was a
non-authorized (self-appointed) security guard for the apartment
complex.
Travon, unfortunately, was wearing a hoodie. It was February, and
cold. George assumed that a black teenager wearing a hoodie must be
up to no good and shot and killed him. Zimmerman was found not guilty
and went free.
This seems to be overly simplified. Oh well, those interested
in the original case or whether Tony's account was overly simplified
can start at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
I disagree that it's overly simplified. The sentence "George assumed
that a black teenager wearing a hoodie must be up to no good and shot
and killed him" boils the entire story down to a few words. That
simplifies it, but not "overly".

There was a scuffle between the sighting of Travon by George and the
shooting, but the scuffle took place because George approached Travon
convinced that he was up to no good.
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Sanford-2012-The-Media/i-GnZ2s73/A
I frequently wear a hoodie sweatshirt in cold weather. But, no one
thinks a white face under a hoodie is dangerous. I'm sure Eminem
would be safe, too. It's the complexion, not the clothing.
Quite irrelevant since Zimmerman did not actually claim that
Martin's attire was the issue. It was a straw man brought up
by the lawyer of Martin's family. (Or was that your point?)
It was not at all irrelevant or a straw man. Travon's race and
appearance made George think Travon was a thug. The hoodie
contributed to that conclusion on George's part.

The complex in which this took place is home to other African
Americans. The family Travon was visiting is African American. So it
wasn't just that a black person was on the grounds. It was a black
person who appeared to be a thug. My point was that a white person in
a hoodie would not have been taken to be a thug.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2018-05-07 18:00:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Then it would be useless to advise someone not to wear the do-rag. The
advice is based on the experience that the do-rag negatively influences
or at least reinforces the judgment the wearer faces.

People tend to be more tolerant of people of a different racial or
ethnical background when they appear "assimilated". In the novel I
recently read, Middlesex, the attitude was embodied in the comment one
of the characters makes after seeing a movie, I think it was "Guess
Who's Coming To Dinner?": See, they can speak proper English if they
want to!
--
Everyone gets one personality tic that's then expanded into an
entire character, in the same way that a balloon with a smiley
face will look like a person if at some point you just stop
caring. -- David Berry, NatPost (on the cast of Criminal Minds)
Tony Cooper
2018-05-07 22:44:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 7 May 2018 14:00:11 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Then it would be useless to advise someone not to wear the do-rag. The
advice is based on the experience that the do-rag negatively influences
or at least reinforces the judgment the wearer faces.
While it is not impossible, it's very unlikely that an African
American wearing a do-rag would be otherwise dressed and visually
"white bread". Those who wear do-rags aren't likely to be wearing
chinos, a Polo shirt, and Topsiders at the same time.

If the person has his underwear showing above his droopy pants, is
wearing expensive athletic shoes with the laces untied, and is wearing
a heavy gold chain with some heavy object dangling from it, leaving
off the do-rag isn't going to improve his acceptability with some.

Even without those visual indicators, being black will cause
discomfort to some. Ask those two guys that were forced to leave
Starbucks when the police were called.
Post by Quinn C
People tend to be more tolerant of people of a different racial or
ethnical background when they appear "assimilated".
Aren't African Americans people? If the person is going to the mall,
what group would that person want to assimilate with?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-07 23:08:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 7 May 2018 14:00:11 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Then it would be useless to advise someone not to wear the do-rag. The
advice is based on the experience that the do-rag negatively influences
or at least reinforces the judgment the wearer faces.
While it is not impossible, it's very unlikely that an African
American wearing a do-rag would be otherwise dressed and visually
"white bread". Those who wear do-rags aren't likely to be wearing
chinos, a Polo shirt, and Topsiders at the same time.
If the person has his underwear showing above his droopy pants, is
wearing expensive athletic shoes with the laces untied, and is wearing
a heavy gold chain with some heavy object dangling from it, leaving
off the do-rag isn't going to improve his acceptability with some.
Even without those visual indicators, being black will cause
discomfort to some. Ask those two guys that were forced to leave
Starbucks when the police were called.
...

This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called. They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html

(New Mexico, that is. For those unsure of American geography and
ethnography, yes, those youths live far from their ancestral
homeland.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-08 08:17:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called. They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The parent,
a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some of the things
they did mention?
(New Mexico, that is. For those unsure of American geography and
ethnography, yes, those youths live far from their ancestral
homeland.)
I wondered about that. I associate Mohawks with the north east.
--
athel
RH Draney
2018-05-08 10:45:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called.  They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The parent,
a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some of the things
they did mention?
(New Mexico, that is.  For those unsure of American geography and
ethnography, yes, those youths live far from their ancestral
homeland.)
I wondered about that. I associate Mohawks with the north east.
I associate them with the construction trade...except for Harold Preston
Smith, who became famous for running around with a Texas Ranger....r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-08 16:19:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called.  They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The parent,
a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some of the things
they did mention?
(New Mexico, that is.  For those unsure of American geography and
ethnography, yes, those youths live far from their ancestral
homeland.)
I wondered about that. I associate Mohawks with the north east.
I associate them with the construction trade
OK, me too.
Post by RH Draney
...except for Harold Preston Smith, who became famous for running
around with a Texas Ranger....r
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 12:32:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called. They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The parent,
a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some of the things
they did mention?
Post by Jerry Friedman
(New Mexico, that is. For those unsure of American geography and
ethnography, yes, those youths live far from their ancestral
homeland.)
I wondered about that. I associate Mohawks with the north east.
Actually, with the Northeast, specifically New York State. They legendarily
were the steeplejacks who did the ironwork on Manhattan's skyscrapers in
the early 20th century because they were supposedly immune to acrophobia.
Cheryl
2018-05-08 12:35:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called.  They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The parent,
a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some of the things
they did mention?
According to the article, because they didn't know who the mother was -
they said local authorities didn't release her name.
--
Cheryl
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-08 16:23:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called.  They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The parent,
a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some of the things
they did mention?
According to the article, because they didn't know who the mother was -
they said local authorities didn't release her name.
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not
be withheld.
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-08 16:47:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Cheryl
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called.  They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The parent,
a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some of the things
they did mention?
According to the article, because they didn't know who the mother was -
they said local authorities didn't release her name.
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not
be withheld.
Maybe the college didn't want to embarrass the parent of a prospective
student.
--
Jerry Friedman
Cheryl
2018-05-08 16:54:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Cheryl
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called.  They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The parent,
a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some of the things
they did mention?
According to the article, because they didn't know who the mother was -
they said local authorities didn't release her name.
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not
be withheld.
Maybe the college didn't want to embarrass the parent of a prospective
student.
I was thinking that there was probably a general rule that people who
call the police don't have their names on public record unless they have
to give evidence in court - or are charged in court. Surely the police
want to encourage people to talk to them - privately if necessary - in
case they have knowledge of a crime but fear retribution, and such a
general rule would also cover people who make unfounded complaints and
reports.
--
Cheryl
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-08 20:26:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Cheryl
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called.  They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The parent,
a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some of the things
they did mention?
According to the article, because they didn't know who the mother was -
they said local authorities didn't release her name.
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not
be withheld.
Maybe the college didn't want to embarrass the parent of a prospective
student.
I was thinking that there was probably a general rule that people who
call the police don't have their names on public record unless they have
to give evidence in court - or are charged in court. Surely the police
want to encourage people to talk to them - privately if necessary - in
case they have knowledge of a crime but fear retribution, and such a
general rule would also cover people who make unfounded complaints and
reports.
That's probably more important than my suggestion.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-08 17:21:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Cheryl
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called.  They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The
parent,> >> a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some
of the things> >> they did mention?
According to the article, because they didn't know who the mother was
-> > they said local authorities didn't release her name.
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I>
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not>
be withheld.
Maybe the college didn't want to embarrass the parent of a prospective
student.
So they thought it better to embarrass the college instead? Very poor
public relations.
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-08 20:33:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Cheryl
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called.  They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Why do you think the New York Times avoided mentioning who "The
parent,> >> a mother" was. Surely that was at least as important some
of the things> >> they did mention?
According to the article, because they didn't know who the mother was
-> > they said local authorities didn't release her name.
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I>
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not>
be withheld.
Maybe the college didn't want to embarrass the parent of a prospective
student.
So they thought it better to embarrass the college instead? Very poor
public relations.
The college was embarrassed anyway.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader
2018-05-08 19:03:36 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not
be withheld.
It bloody well should. It is not the job of the police to shame people
who honestly report a suspicion of crime. (How do I know it was honest?
Because she said it might be nothing.)
--
Mark Brader | "We know two things about unexpected events:
Toronto | One, they will happen. Two, when they do happen,
***@vex.net | they will be unexpected." --Donald Norman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-08 19:57:10 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not
be withheld.
It bloody well should. It is not the job of the police to shame people
who honestly report a suspicion of crime. (How do I know it was honest?
Because she said it might be nothing.)
You are more trusting than I am. It was naked prejudice. If someone
called the police on my daughter because they didn't like her
appearance I would want to know who.

I don't believe your "honestly" for one moment.
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-08 20:38:05 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not
be withheld.
It bloody well should. It is not the job of the police to shame people
who honestly report a suspicion of crime. (How do I know it was honest?
Because she said it might be nothing.)
You are more trusting than I am. It was naked prejudice. If someone
called the police on my daughter because they didn't like her
appearance I would want to know who.
And if your daughter called the police on somebody who looked like
a gangster and was acting suspiciously, would you want the
possible gangster to know who?
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't believe your "honestly" for one moment.
I don't see why she'd lie. Just to get rid of them, because they
were NOCD? (Someone will want to know that that's "Not our class,
dear.")

By the way, in reference to a discussion of mullets a couple
months ago, note the older brother's Native mullet--or maybe it's
a heavy-metal mullet, or both.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-08 21:02:26 UTC
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On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 2:38:07 PM UTC-6, Jerry Friedman wrote:

[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html]
Post by Jerry Friedman
By the way, in reference to a discussion of mullets a couple
months ago, note the older brother's Native mullet--or maybe it's
a heavy-metal mullet, or both.
The younger brother, Lloyd.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 21:04:00 UTC
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[no idea who said what, thanks to Brader's screwing with the attributions]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not
be withheld.
It bloody well should. It is not the job of the police to shame people
who honestly report a suspicion of crime. (How do I know it was honest?
Because she said it might be nothing.)
You are more trusting than I am. It was naked prejudice. If someone
called the police on my daughter because they didn't like her
appearance I would want to know who.
And if your daughter called the police on somebody who looked like
a gangster and was acting suspiciously, would you want the
possible gangster to know who?
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't believe your "honestly" for one moment.
I don't see why she'd lie. Just to get rid of them, because they
were NOCD? (Someone will want to know that that's "Not our class,
dear.")
"NOKD" in Chicago. "Kind."
Post by Jerry Friedman
By the way, in reference to a discussion of mullets a couple
months ago, note the older brother's Native mullet--or maybe it's
a heavy-metal mullet, or both.
Cheryl
2018-05-08 22:41:39 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
Yes, you're right: "Her name was withheld by the campus police"; I
missed that sentence. For something like that it should damn well not
be withheld.
It bloody well should.  It is not the job of the police to shame people
who honestly report a suspicion of crime.  (How do I know it was honest?
Because she said it might be nothing.)
You are more trusting than I am. It was naked prejudice. If someone
called the police on my daughter because they didn't like her appearance
I would want to know who.
I don't believe your "honestly" for one moment.
You don't know whether it was prejudice or not. Neither do I, but not
every suspicion of a person of colour is based on prejudice.

People can report what they please about me or my relatives to the
police. If they report that I'm a loony old bag lady, probably drunk and
looking for something to steal, I suppose the police might make a casual
enquiry, but without evidence it's not going any further - as it didn't
in this case.
--
Cheryl
Madhu
2018-05-08 16:12:41 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called. They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
(New Mexico, that is. For those unsure of American geography and
ethnography, yes, those youths live far from their ancestral
homeland.)
I wondered about that. I associate Mohawks with the north east.
The article did say "The brothers, who belong to the Mohawk tribe, moved
to New Mexico from New York about a decade ago"

When I lived in Albuquerque I ran into many Native Americans from out of
state who were going to school there, not just the Pueblo and Navajo. I
imagined they were comfortable in a place with a large native population
nevermind what tribe.

I also ran into Nepalis who had emigrated there, who worked for the
reservation (doing legal work and lobbying work) - On the face of it
these were indistinguishable from the natives.
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-08 16:39:52 UTC
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Post by Madhu
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
This brings me to the two young Mohawk Indians from my town who were
forced to leave a tour of Colorado State University when the police
were called. They were "acting oddly" and "lying" about being on
the tour and wearing "dark stuff" (shirts from heavy-metal bands")
and "looked Hispanic" and "said they were from Mexico".
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/us/native-american-brothers-colorado.html
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
(New Mexico, that is. For those unsure of American geography and
ethnography, yes, those youths live far from their ancestral
homeland.)
I wondered about that. I associate Mohawks with the north east.
The article did say "The brothers, who belong to the Mohawk tribe, moved
to New Mexico from New York about a decade ago"
And I missed that one.
Post by Madhu
When I lived in Albuquerque I ran into many Native Americans from out of
state who were going to school there, not just the Pueblo and Navajo. I
imagined they were comfortable in a place with a large native population
nevermind what tribe.
I think you're probably right. Also, there's at least one Indian high
school here, and there used to be more.
Post by Madhu
I also ran into Nepalis who had emigrated there, who worked for the
reservation (doing legal work and lobbying work) - On the face of it
these were indistinguishable from the natives.
On the face of their faces?

I have a student with a Nepali name (or so Google thinks), but he
doesn't look much like an American Indian.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 16:47:24 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Madhu
When I lived in Albuquerque I ran into many Native Americans from out of
state who were going to school there, not just the Pueblo and Navajo. I
imagined they were comfortable in a place with a large native population
nevermind what tribe.
I think you're probably right. Also, there's at least one Indian high
school here, and there used to be more.
Post by Madhu
I also ran into Nepalis who had emigrated there, who worked for the
reservation (doing legal work and lobbying work) - On the face of it
these were indistinguishable from the natives.
On the face of their faces?
I have a student with a Nepali name (or so Google thinks), but he
doesn't look much like an American Indian.
Does he look Sherpa?
Madhu
2018-05-09 00:02:38 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Madhu
When I lived in Albuquerque I ran into many Native Americans from out
of state who were going to school there, not just the Pueblo and
Navajo. I imagined they were comfortable in a place with a large
native population nevermind what tribe.
I think you're probably right. Also, there's at least one Indian high
school here, and there used to be more.
But now that I think of it, most of the students I ran into were from
out of state..
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Madhu
I also ran into Nepalis who had emigrated there, who worked for the
reservation (doing legal work and lobbying work) - On the face of it
these were indistinguishable from the natives.
On the face of their faces?
Yes. they are a very diverse people though. (This two decades ago was
probably in Gallup, and it helped them at their work.)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 02:29:53 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
While it is not impossible, it's very unlikely that an African
American wearing a do-rag would be otherwise dressed and visually
"white bread". Those who wear do-rags aren't likely to be wearing
chinos, a Polo shirt, and Topsiders at the same time.
If the person has his underwear showing above his droopy pants, is
wearing expensive athletic shoes with the laces untied, and is wearing
a heavy gold chain with some heavy object dangling from it, leaving
off the do-rag isn't going to improve his acceptability with some.
Wow. Tony Cooper is sure heavy into stereotypes. Or maybe Orlando is in a
1980s time warp?
Post by Tony Cooper
Even without those visual indicators, being black will cause
discomfort to some. Ask those two guys that were forced to leave
Starbucks when the police were called.
Post by Quinn C
People tend to be more tolerant of people of a different racial or
ethnical background when they appear "assimilated".
Aren't African Americans people? If the person is going to the mall,
what group would that person want to assimilate with?
CDB
2018-05-08 11:21:56 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
While it is not impossible, it's very unlikely that an African
American wearing a do-rag would be otherwise dressed and visually
"white bread". Those who wear do-rags aren't likely to be wearing
chinos, a Polo shirt, and Topsiders at the same time.
If the person has his underwear showing above his droopy pants, is
wearing expensive athletic shoes with the laces untied, and is
wearing a heavy gold chain with some heavy object dangling from it,
leaving off the do-rag isn't going to improve his acceptability
with some.
Wow. Tony Cooper is sure heavy into stereotypes. Or maybe Orlando is
in a 1980s time warp?
It seems to me that the topic in this part of the forest has been the
behaviour of people reacting to stereotypes.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Even without those visual indicators, being black will cause
discomfort to some. Ask those two guys that were forced to leave
Starbucks when the police were called.
Post by Quinn C
People tend to be more tolerant of people of a different racial
or ethnical background when they appear "assimilated".
It's like that unconscious racism stuff. There is a public official in
Ontario who sometimes appears on television, Dr Kwame ([kwAm]) McKenzie,
whose skin is black, whose mind is keen, whose expression is mild and
erudite, and whose accent is RP. I find myself liking him far better
than I do Dr Dre.

http://www.wellesleyinstitute.com/about/staff/kwame-mckenzie/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Aren't African Americans people? If the person is going to the
mall, what group would that person want to assimilate with?
Kentucky Colonels.
--
I though "toe-rag" was a euphemism for something like "rassclaat"
until I discovered Smirnoff.
Quinn C
2018-05-08 16:49:09 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
While it is not impossible, it's very unlikely that an African
American wearing a do-rag would be otherwise dressed and visually
"white bread". Those who wear do-rags aren't likely to be wearing
chinos, a Polo shirt, and Topsiders at the same time.
If the person has his underwear showing above his droopy pants, is
wearing expensive athletic shoes with the laces untied, and is
wearing a heavy gold chain with some heavy object dangling from it,
leaving off the do-rag isn't going to improve his acceptability
with some.
Wow. Tony Cooper is sure heavy into stereotypes. Or maybe Orlando is
in a 1980s time warp?
It seems to me that the topic in this part of the forest has been the
behaviour of people reacting to stereotypes.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Even without those visual indicators, being black will cause
discomfort to some. Ask those two guys that were forced to leave
Starbucks when the police were called.
Post by Quinn C
People tend to be more tolerant of people of a different racial
or ethnical background when they appear "assimilated".
It's like that unconscious racism stuff. There is a public official in
Ontario who sometimes appears on television, Dr Kwame ([kwAm]) McKenzie,
whose skin is black, whose mind is keen, whose expression is mild and
erudite, and whose accent is RP. I find myself liking him far better
than I do Dr Dre.
http://www.wellesleyinstitute.com/about/staff/kwame-mckenzie/
I can't comment on Dr. Dre specifically, because I don't have a good
idea of how he acts and mostly associate his name with overpriced
headphones.

Substituting any of most rappers, I do have a similar difference in my
spontaneous reaction. But then I remind myself that I make a similar
difference between your average white professor guest on a talk show
and a random white skinhead, for example.

More generally, I've found that having a higher academic background is
at least as promising a base for a shared understanding with someone
than having a German background. "Same culture" goes beyond the
classics place of origin, ethnicity, language and religion.
--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
Harrison Hill
2018-05-08 18:17:08 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
While it is not impossible, it's very unlikely that an African
American wearing a do-rag would be otherwise dressed and visually
"white bread". Those who wear do-rags aren't likely to be wearing
chinos, a Polo shirt, and Topsiders at the same time.
If the person has his underwear showing above his droopy pants, is
wearing expensive athletic shoes with the laces untied, and is
wearing a heavy gold chain with some heavy object dangling from it,
leaving off the do-rag isn't going to improve his acceptability
with some.
Wow. Tony Cooper is sure heavy into stereotypes. Or maybe Orlando is
in a 1980s time warp?
It seems to me that the topic in this part of the forest has been the
behaviour of people reacting to stereotypes.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Even without those visual indicators, being black will cause
discomfort to some. Ask those two guys that were forced to leave
Starbucks when the police were called.
Post by Quinn C
People tend to be more tolerant of people of a different racial
or ethnical background when they appear "assimilated".
It's like that unconscious racism stuff. There is a public official in
Ontario who sometimes appears on television, Dr Kwame ([kwAm]) McKenzie,
whose skin is black, whose mind is keen, whose expression is mild and
erudite, and whose accent is RP. I find myself liking him far better
than I do Dr Dre.
http://www.wellesleyinstitute.com/about/staff/kwame-mckenzie/
I can't comment on Dr. Dre specifically, because I don't have a good
idea of how he acts and mostly associate his name with overpriced
headphones.

Cheryl
2018-05-08 10:01:07 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 14:46:58 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 4 May 2018 01:36:41 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
When Jheri curls went out of fashion, the do-rag remained a fashion
accessory. It spread from being an African American fashion
accessory to being worn by motorcycle riders (primarily Harley
riders) as either a head covering that wouldn't blow off like a cap
would, or a layer between helmet and hair or shaven scalp.
https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/i-ZcQJgtg/A
This appears to be a North American fashion that never migrated to other
countries. I had never heard of a do-rag until this thread appeared.
Initially, I thought it was related to BrE "toerag". That was a word
that had me puzzled for a long time. I oscillated between thinking it
was a Dutch word and thinking it was an alternative spelling of
"Tuareg". By now I have finally come to understand that it is
uncomplimentary, but I still don't understand how it is related to "toe"
and "rag".
But it is not uncomplimentary. It's a neutral description of a
something worn on the head. The observer might have a negative view
of the person wearing a do-rag, but it is not the do-rag that causes
that reaction.
I don't think that can be said universally. Just the other day I heard
from a person working with black teenagers that they have to give them
advice like "maybe don't wear that do-rag when you go to the mall."
I don't have first-hand experience, but I do see online that do-rags
are associated with hip-hop culture and, as you know, biker culture,
and people from both of those cultures make some others uncomfortable.
(I did read your "recall" message, but decided to comment anyway)
The point is that it's not the do-rag that is objectionable or the
source of the negative view. It's the person wearing the do-rag.
The person you cite offering that advice is really saying "Try to look
like a white person when you go to the mall". While people are
critical of do-rags and droopy pants, it's the person that's drawing
the comment. That's not materially changed when the clothing is
changed.
Then it would be useless to advise someone not to wear the do-rag. The
advice is based on the experience that the do-rag negatively influences
or at least reinforces the judgment the wearer faces.
People tend to be more tolerant of people of a different racial or
ethnical background when they appear "assimilated". In the novel I
recently read, Middlesex, the attitude was embodied in the comment one
of the characters makes after seeing a movie, I think it was "Guess
Who's Coming To Dinner?": See, they can speak proper English if they
want to!
I think tolerance is often based on relative numbers. People may be
tolerant of minority groups who are present in small numbers, but when
the numbers rise, so do fears of loss of jobs and culture.

Other factors and influences are at work too, of course, including the
ability of members of the minority group to speak the majority language,
or function in the majority culture.
--
Cheryl
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-01 21:36:32 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
? Do women use do-rags? I haven't noticed any in either Chicago or NY.
Ross
2018-05-02 02:39:39 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
? Do women use do-rags? I haven't noticed any in either Chicago or NY.
No doubt they had to wear something of the kind, but perhaps did not
so much in public as men. Only one of Green's examples refers to
a woman:

1997 Simon & Burns Corner (1998) 80: A wraith of a woman weaing a torn army jacket, her hair shoveled under a do-rag.

But it's pretty clear from OED:

1977 G. Smitherman Talkin & Testifyin iii. 66 But Brothers, like Sisters..wore a scarf or stocking cap..to keep the waves in place during sleep. The scarf was called a do-rag.
1993 Vanity Fair (N.Y.) May 166/1 She was in the kitchen with a wet rag, down on her hands and knees wiping the floor, wearing a do-rag on her head.

The past tense may be related to another from Green:

1981 J. Wambaugh Glitter Dome (1982) 68: Nobody wears do-rags no more, you dumb nigger!

And the same source records a use from the 1980s, the rag no longer
functional but emblematic: "a bandanna used as part of one's gang insignia"
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-02 03:29:52 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
? Do women use do-rags? I haven't noticed any in either Chicago or NY.
No doubt they had to wear something of the kind, but perhaps did not
so much in public as men. Only one of Green's examples refers to
1997 Simon & Burns Corner (1998) 80: A wraith of a woman weaing a torn army jacket, her hair shoveled under a do-rag.
1977 G. Smitherman Talkin & Testifyin iii. 66 But Brothers, like Sisters..wore a scarf or stocking cap..to keep the waves in place during sleep. The scarf was called a do-rag.
That tells me that what the Brothers wore was a do-rag, what the Sisters
wore was a scarf.

Geneva Smitherman was/is not a very nice person. After she was on Dick
Cavett I wrote asking a question and she responded not by answering the
question but by sending a flyer for her book (probably the abovementioned).
Post by Ross
1993 Vanity Fair (N.Y.) May 166/1 She was in the kitchen with a wet rag, down on her hands and knees wiping the floor, wearing a do-rag on her head.
That one's unambiguous. But VF isn't exactly a prime source of AAVE lingo.
Post by Ross
1981 J. Wambaugh Glitter Dome (1982) 68: Nobody wears do-rags no more, you dumb nigger!
Must be Joseph Wambaugh, whom I recollect to be a retired police officer
(white) who turned to crime fiction in his retirement. Something about
onion fields, no?
Post by Ross
And the same source records a use from the 1980s, the rag no longer
functional but emblematic: "a bandanna used as part of one's gang insignia"
Yeah, I saw West Side Story.
Ross
2018-05-02 08:28:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
? Do women use do-rags? I haven't noticed any in either Chicago or NY.
No doubt they had to wear something of the kind, but perhaps did not
so much in public as men. Only one of Green's examples refers to
1997 Simon & Burns Corner (1998) 80: A wraith of a woman weaing a torn army jacket, her hair shoveled under a do-rag.
1977 G. Smitherman Talkin & Testifyin iii. 66 But Brothers, like Sisters..wore a scarf or stocking cap..to keep the waves in place during sleep. The scarf was called a do-rag.
That tells me that what the Brothers wore was a do-rag, what the Sisters
wore was a scarf.
I would read it as equivocal. "Scarf or stocking cap" is just a description.
"Was called" does not imply a gender distinction in terminology.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Geneva Smitherman was/is not a very nice person. After she was on Dick
Cavett I wrote asking a question and she responded not by answering the
question but by sending a flyer for her book (probably the abovementioned).
Gosh, I can see that the qualifications for "very nice person" are
pretty stringent in your area.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
1993 Vanity Fair (N.Y.) May 166/1 She was in the kitchen with a wet rag, down on her hands and knees wiping the floor, wearing a do-rag on her head.
That one's unambiguous. But VF isn't exactly a prime source of AAVE lingo.
Post by Ross
1981 J. Wambaugh Glitter Dome (1982) 68: Nobody wears do-rags no more, you dumb nigger!
Must be Joseph Wambaugh, whom I recollect to be a retired police officer
(white) who turned to crime fiction in his retirement. Something about
onion fields, no?
Post by Ross
And the same source records a use from the 1980s, the rag no longer
functional but emblematic: "a bandanna used as part of one's gang insignia"
Yeah, I saw West Side Story.
Set some decades earlier, I believe.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-02 12:45:57 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Geneva Smitherman was/is not a very nice person. After she was on Dick
Cavett I wrote asking a question and she responded not by answering the
question but by sending a flyer for her book (probably the abovementioned).
Gosh, I can see that the qualifications for "very nice person" are
pretty stringent in your area.
If a linguistics graduate student saw you on TV and wrote to you asking a
question about what you had discussed, would you reply with an answer to
the question?
Cheryl
2018-05-02 12:53:47 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Geneva Smitherman was/is not a very nice person. After she was on Dick
Cavett I wrote asking a question and she responded not by answering the
question but by sending a flyer for her book (probably the abovementioned).
Gosh, I can see that the qualifications for "very nice person" are
pretty stringent in your area.
If a linguistics graduate student saw you on TV and wrote to you asking a
question about what you had discussed, would you reply with an answer to
the question?
I suppose it would depend on how much unsolicited mail I got. Some
people are so famous that they get so much mail that they hire people to
send form responses, if they answer it at all. I don't know if Ms (or, I
guess, Dr.) Smitherman receives that much mail. I'd never heard of her
before, but then, I'm not in her field.
--
Cheryl
Tony Cooper
2018-05-02 14:25:07 UTC
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On Wed, 2 May 2018 05:45:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Geneva Smitherman was/is not a very nice person. After she was on Dick
Cavett I wrote asking a question and she responded not by answering the
question but by sending a flyer for her book (probably the abovementioned).
Gosh, I can see that the qualifications for "very nice person" are
pretty stringent in your area.
If a linguistics graduate student saw you on TV and wrote to you asking a
question about what you had discussed, would you reply with an answer to
the question?
It would depend on how the question was couched. An Aggressive
Question - as you are wont to form - or a question questioning her
presentation in a negative way, may not receive a reply. She may feel
- as is often the case in this group - that no reply will satisfy you.
So, why bother?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-05-03 10:03:57 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 2 May 2018 05:45:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Geneva Smitherman was/is not a very nice person. After she was on
Dick Cavett I wrote asking a question and she responded not by
answering the question but by sending a flyer for her book
(probably the abovementioned).
Gosh, I can see that the qualifications for "very nice person" are
pretty stringent in your area.
If a linguistics graduate student saw you on TV and wrote to you
asking a question about what you had discussed, would you reply with
an answer to the question?
It would depend on how the question was couched. An Aggressive
Question - as you are wont to form - or a question questioning her
presentation in a negative way, may not receive a reply. She may feel
- as is often the case in this group - that no reply will satisfy you.
So, why bother?
IAWTP. use the kf.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2018-05-02 16:16:08 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Whiskers
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
OED has "do", short for "hair-do", one example from 1918, and several
more from the 1960s on.
It also has AAVE "do-rag", with citations from 1968 to 2000, the last
referring to men.
? Do women use do-rags? I haven't noticed any in either Chicago or NY.
No doubt they had to wear something of the kind, but perhaps did not
so much in public as men. Only one of Green's examples refers to
1997 Simon & Burns Corner (1998) 80: A wraith of a woman weaing a torn army jacket, her hair shoveled under a do-rag.
1977 G. Smitherman Talkin & Testifyin iii. 66 But Brothers,
like Sisters..wore a scarf or stocking cap..to keep the waves in
place during sleep. The scarf was called a do-rag.
That tells me that what the Brothers wore was a do-rag, what the Sisters
wore was a scarf.
I would read it as equivocal. "Scarf or stocking cap" is just a description.
"Was called" does not imply a gender distinction in terminology.
A scarf is a scarf, that you need to bind to hold in place. A stocking
cap was a nylon stocking (cut and) worn over the head for protective
purposes, according to Wikipedia. These days, a do-rag is a
purpose-made headgear with the same function as a stocking cap. But I
guess it's possible that a scarf or stocking cap would be called do-rag
in some contexts.
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Geneva Smitherman was/is not a very nice person. After she was on Dick
Cavett I wrote asking a question and she responded not by answering the
question but by sending a flyer for her book (probably the abovementioned).
Gosh, I can see that the qualifications for "very nice person" are
pretty stringent in your area.
They should be, for "very nice". More interesting in this context is
what the negation of a phrase with "very" actually implies.
--
Everyone gets one personality tic that's then expanded into an
entire character, in the same way that a balloon with a smiley
face will look like a person if at some point you just stop
caring. -- David Berry, NatPost (on the cast of Criminal Minds)
Tony Cooper
2018-05-02 12:13:08 UTC
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On Tue, 1 May 2018 20:29:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Geneva Smitherman was/is not a very nice person. After she was on Dick
Cavett I wrote asking a question and she responded not by answering the
question but by sending a flyer for her book (probably the abovementioned).
One of the early examples of a reaction to an Aggressive Question?


The "do-rag" is often spelled "doo rag", by the way.

https://www.walmart.com/tp/doo-rags
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2018-05-02 15:16:04 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
The "do-rag" is often spelled "doo rag", by the way.
https://www.walmart.com/tp/doo-rags
And I'd never heard of them until this thread. If I had to guess, I
would have guessed it was a sanitary napkin.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2018-05-01 03:00:04 UTC
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Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
But do the manufacturers concerned try to sell a potion or gadget
to do it?
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
Maybe they just wanted to avoid the confusing repetition "three
different facial hair styles, four hair styles ..." Would "haircut" do?

I'm not really familiar with "facial hair style" to begin with. I guess
that includes clean-shaven - a hair style with no hair -, which would
be an option almost every man in our culture tries out at some point.
This sets it apart from top-of-the-head hair styles, where the
corresponding option isn't as widespread, at least as a choice.

"American sociologist Rose Weitz once wrote that the most widespread
cultural rule about hair is that women's hair must differ from men's
hair." says Wikipedia - and (American) English seems to extend that to
the word used for it. German gets along fine without distinguishing
"hairstyle", "haircut" and "hairdo".
--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-01 03:22:07 UTC
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Post by Whiskers
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Harrison Hill
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
Context is there to help you. The entire piece is about male
appearance and grooming, so wouldn't it suggest that the "dos" are one
of the appearance points?
Just go with whatever comes to you off the top of your head.
That would be a very extreme do.
But do the manufacturers concerned try to sell a potion or gadget
to do it?
I've only encountered 'do' used this way, in the phrase 'hair do'
- something only women have. But I can imagine that someone
trying to sell cosmetics etc might want to extend the part of the
population to whom they can sell their stuff, and thus feel
justified in stretching definitions.
That's not a phrase, but the word "hairdo." It is often contracted as "do"
or, if you wanted to be fussy, "'do."
Peter Moylan
2018-05-01 04:51:22 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial hair
styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall looks,
according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
At the age of 65 I changed the shape of my beard. If I'm feeling
adventurous I might even try a second change after another 65 years.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
occam
2018-05-01 10:57:03 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial hair
styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall looks,
according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
At the age of 65 I changed the shape of my beard. If I'm feeling
adventurous I might even try a second change after another 65 years.
"after another 65 years"? Does that mean you had the first beard for 65
years? You Australians sure make an early start.
Peter Moylan
2018-05-01 11:14:46 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial hair
styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall looks,
according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
At the age of 65 I changed the shape of my beard. If I'm feeling
adventurous I might even try a second change after another 65 years.
"after another 65 years"? Does that mean you had the first beard for 65
years? You Australians sure make an early start.
Good point. Make that 45 years.

Meanwhile, I still can't remember the last time I used 4DOS.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2018-05-01 19:52:37 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial hair
styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall looks,
according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
At the age of 65 I changed the shape of my beard. If I'm feeling
adventurous I might even try a second change after another 65 years.
"after another 65 years"? Does that mean you had the first beard for 65
years? You Australians sure make an early start.
Good point. Make that 45 years.
Meanwhile, I still can't remember the last time I used 4DOS.
A beard of either age would be much like the knife that's had three new
handles and two new blades.

You can never trim the same beard twice - and all that.
--
Sam Plusnet
occam
2018-05-01 11:05:03 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's",
Always assuming that you understand that "do's" would be the wrong way
to write "dos". (Its a plural, not something possessed.)
Harrison Hill
2018-05-01 12:51:26 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's",
Always assuming that you understand that "do's" would be the wrong way
to write "dos". (Its a plural, not something possessed.)
You are wrong. My ancient COD gives "fair do's" as perfectly
normal English, and *doesn't mention "fair dos" at all.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-01 12:59:29 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's",
Always assuming that you understand that "do's" would be the wrong way
to write "dos". (Its a plural, not something possessed.)
Not wrong. A quirk of English orthography for which there is little
obvious justification but which persists anyway.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-01 13:27:27 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by occam
Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's",
Always assuming that you understand that "do's" would be the wrong way
to write "dos". (Its a plural, not something possessed.)
Not wrong. A quirk of English orthography for which there is little
obvious justification but which persists anyway.
The "quirk" is intended to avoid the most egregious misinterpretations.
Sometimes a plural of a word not often pluralized can look like it ought
to be something else, and that can be forestalled by the judicious
deployment of apostrophes. I said judicious, Mr G'rocer.

The Braun announcement would have been an occasion for such deployment.
b***@shaw.ca
2018-05-05 06:47:02 UTC
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Post by Harrison Hill
"Men hit their style 'prime' at the age of 30, a study has found.
Before that, the average man has tried three different facial
hair styles, four dos, five fashion statements and five overall
looks, according to male grooming brand Braun." ...
...from today's Metro Newspaper.
Assuming "dos" is what I'd write as "do's", I'm still not much
the wiser. In a woman I'd guess at "hair dos", so perhaps this is
grooming jargon?
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