Discussion:
Transpondian pronunciation differences.
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Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-26 21:29:08 UTC
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Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
was interviewed and said of the wedding reception [1]:

each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
mashup of two cultures."

I wonder what other food names might have been used.

[1] From:
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
quoting:
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-26 23:33:04 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
mashup of two cultures."
I wonder what other food names might have been used.
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.

There could have been chips/French fries, aubergine/eggplant,
cos/romaine, and rocket/arugula. If they were limiting it to names with
the same spelling... hm... "scone" (cue usual discussion) sort of qualifies.

I wonder whether they tried to mix the pondialities of the guests at
each table so they could say, "Of course. How do /you/ pronounce it?"
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-26 23:44:31 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
     each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
     and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
     said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
     mashup of two cultures."
I wonder what other food names might have been used.
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
Alias Ira Gershwin.
--
Jerry Friedman
musika
2018-05-26 23:53:14 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
Alias Ira Gershwin.
Hmm. I didn't know that was Ira's first name.
--
Ray
UK
occam
2018-05-28 08:12:29 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
     each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
     and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
     said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
     mashup of two cultures."
I wonder what other food names might have been used.
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
It should.
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"

Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-28 08:57:27 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
     each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
     and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
     said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
     mashup of two cultures."
I wonder what other food names might have been used.
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
It should.
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Me too.

To repeat what the report says:
... said differently in America and the U.K. "Potato, potato,
tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she said

She, Janina Gavankar, would have spoken each word twice, first with AmE
and then with BrE pronunciation.
Post by occam
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-28 09:23:49 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
     each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
     and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
     said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
     mashup of two cultures."
I wonder what other food names might have been used.
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
It should.
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Me too.
... said differently in America and the U.K. "Potato, potato,
tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she said
She, Janina Gavankar, would have spoken each word twice, first with AmE
and then with BrE pronunciation.
Post by occam
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"? For quinoa, my wife says KEENoa ['kɪjnəʊ̯ɑ], so I do too;
I've never heard another British person say it, but I'd expect kinOa
[kɪ'nəʊ̯ə].
--
athel
RH Draney
2018-05-28 11:14:22 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"? For quinoa, my wife says KEENoa ['kɪjnəʊ̯ɑ], so I do too;
I've never heard another British person say it, but I'd expect kinOa
[kɪ'nəʊ̯ə].
"Chocolate" and "quinoa" are often bisyllabic in American, like
"caramel"....r
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-28 11:48:06 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
     each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
     and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
     said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
     mashup of two cultures."
I wonder what other food names might have been used.
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
It should.
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Me too.
... said differently in America and the U.K. "Potato, potato,
tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she said
She, Janina Gavankar, would have spoken each word twice, first with AmE
and then with BrE pronunciation.
Post by occam
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"? For quinoa, my wife says KEENoa ['kɪjnəʊ̯ɑ], so I do too;
I've never heard another British person say it, but I'd expect kinOa
[kɪ'nəʊ̯ə].
Am: puhtayder, chocklut (think Forest Gump)

Dunno about quinoa.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-28 12:57:10 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by occam
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Me too.
... said differently in America and the U.K. "Potato, potato,
tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she said
She, Janina Gavankar, would have spoken each word twice, first with AmE
and then with BrE pronunciation.
Post by occam
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"? For quinoa, my wife says KEENoa ['kɪjnəʊ̯ɑ], so I do too;
I've never heard another British person say it, but I'd expect kinOa
[kɪ'nəʊ̯ə].
Am: puhtayder, chocklut (think Forest Gump)
The point of that character being that he was "mentally challenged" and
did not use a mainstream dialect.

And we see the usual canard that a flapped t somehow represents d.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Dunno about quinoa.
keen-wah (remember, AmE tends to respect the pronunciation in the
originating language, rather than making guesses on the basis of
pretending that every language underwent the Great English Vowel
Shift and assigns stress as in English).

I don't know what a BrE pronunciation of "oregano" or "turmeric" could be.
They appear to be spelled straightforwardly.

PAP-ri-ka and pa-PREE-ka seem to be in free variation in AmE.

The second (the last) syllable in "chocolate" would be "lit" in a crude
respelling, not "lut."
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-28 15:52:17 UTC
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On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:57:10 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by occam
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Me too.
... said differently in America and the U.K. "Potato, potato,
tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she said
She, Janina Gavankar, would have spoken each word twice, first with AmE
and then with BrE pronunciation.
Post by occam
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"? For quinoa, my wife says KEENoa ['k?jn????], so I do too;
I've never heard another British person say it, but I'd expect kinOa
[k?'n????].
Am: puhtayder, chocklut (think Forest Gump)
The point of that character being that he was "mentally challenged" and
did not use a mainstream dialect.
And we see the usual canard that a flapped t somehow represents d.
A flapped t sounds like a d to many of us outside America.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Dunno about quinoa.
keen-wah (remember, AmE tends to respect the pronunciation in the
originating language, rather than making guesses on the basis of
pretending that every language underwent the Great English Vowel
Shift and assigns stress as in English).
I don't know what a BrE pronunciation of "oregano" or "turmeric" could be.
They appear to be spelled straightforwardly.
"oregano" in BrE and OzE is "ori-gah-noh" with the stress on "gah".

o: Bre short-o, /A./
i: sometimes short-i; sometimes ee
a: /A/
o: /o/

This gives the two, very different, pronunciations; IPA and audio clips:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/oregano
Post by Peter T. Daniels
PAP-ri-ka and pa-PREE-ka seem to be in free variation in AmE.
The second (the last) syllable in "chocolate" would be "lit" in a crude
respelling, not "lut."
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Whiskers
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
mashup of two cultures."
I wonder what other food names might have been used.
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
It should.
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Me too.
... said differently in America and the U.K. "Potato, potato,
tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she said
She, Janina Gavankar, would have spoken each word twice, first with AmE
and then with BrE pronunciation.
Post by occam
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"? For quinoa, my wife says KEENoa ['kɪjnəʊ̯ɑ], so I do too;
I've never heard another British person say it, but I'd expect kinOa
[kɪ'nəʊ̯ə].
That one's tricky. I've heard 'sheen wha' here in London, but
'kwin oa' is the usual, or an occasional 'keen wha'.
--
^^^^^^^^^^
Whiskers
~~~~~~~~~~


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-28 14:09:16 UTC
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Post by Whiskers
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
mashup of two cultures."
I wonder what other food names might have been used.
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
quoting:
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/



I
Post by Whiskers
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
It should.
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Me too.
... said differently in America and the U.K. "Potato, potato,
tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she said
She, Janina Gavankar, would have spoken each word twice, first with AmE
and then with BrE pronunciation.
Post by occam
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"? For quinoa, my wife says KEENoa ['kɪjnəʊ̯ɑ], so I do too;
I've never heard another British person say it, but I'd expect kinOa
[kɪ'nəʊ̯ə].
That one's tricky. I've heard 'sheen wha' here in London, but
'kwin oa' is the usual, or an occasional 'keen wha'.
The last is probably closest to a Spanish pronunciation, as the Spanish
wikiparticle spells it quinua or quínoa, both indicating initial
stress. (It's from a Quechua word kínua or kinuwa, but it looks Spanish
and comes to us via Spanish). The first pronunciation you give is
totally crazy and the second is not much better.
--
athel
Whiskers
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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[...]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Whiskers
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"? For quinoa, my wife says KEENoa ['kɪjnəʊ̯ɑ], so I do too;
I've never heard another British person say it, but I'd expect kinOa
[kɪ'nəʊ̯ə].
That one's tricky. I've heard 'sheen wha' here in London, but
'kwin oa' is the usual, or an occasional 'keen wha'.
The last is probably closest to a Spanish pronunciation, as the Spanish
wikiparticle spells it quinua or quínoa, both indicating initial
stress. (It's from a Quechua word kínua or kinuwa, but it looks Spanish
and comes to us via Spanish). The first pronunciation you give is
totally crazy and the second is not much better.
When it first appeared in the trendy foody magazine articles and
shops, few people knew where it came from. New words starting
with a Q are sometimes of Chinese origin and meant to be
pronounced as Sh or Ch, which is probably why 'sheen wha'
happened. 'Kwin oa' is just the straightforward English
pronounciation of the word.
--
^^^^^^^^^^
Whiskers
~~~~~~~~~~


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
RH Draney
2018-05-29 13:00:08 UTC
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Post by Whiskers
When it first appeared in the trendy foody magazine articles and
shops, few people knew where it came from. New words starting
with a Q are sometimes of Chinese origin and meant to be
pronounced as Sh or Ch, which is probably why 'sheen wha'
happened. 'Kwin oa' is just the straightforward English
pronounciation of the word.
So that's how you'd pronounciate it?...

I'm reminded of a latter episode of Michael Feldman's "Whad'ya Know?"
before it moved to a podcast-only venue...the "Town of the Week" had
been selected as some place where a major industry was the extraction of
kaolin, which the Chinese-American announcer assumed was pronounced "cow
lynn"....r
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-29 16:36:10 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Whiskers
When it first appeared in the trendy foody magazine articles and
shops, few people knew where it came from. New words starting
with a Q are sometimes of Chinese origin and meant to be
pronounced as Sh or Ch, which is probably why 'sheen wha'
happened. 'Kwin oa' is just the straightforward English
pronounciation of the word.
So that's how you'd pronounciate it?...
I'm reminded of a latter episode of Michael Feldman's "Whad'ya Know?"
before it moved to a podcast-only venue
how sad.

One of the reasons I refuse to donate to Public Radio (any more) is that
every time I did so, the local station took off the air one of my
favorite programs.

Having grown up hearing Whad'ya Know every Saturday from 10 to noon, I
was resigned to hearing it at the less convenient 11 to 1. WNYC then
began broadcasting the first hour only. It then broadcast only the first
hour but not live, and repeated it later in the weekend.

Apparently the arrangements for the show to come to NYC had been made
long before the station deserted it, and (as we learned from the tape-
delayed broadcast) Michael Feldman was disturbed that he wasn't getting
any calls from local people. At least, on that one occasion instead of
repeating Hour I during the second time slot, they played Hour II.

It was Jim Packard's last show.

They stopped broadcasting an hour of it a few weeks later.

Similarly: the annual visits of A Prairie Home Companion to Town Hall
were a huge success and would sell out immediately, tickets were used
as premiums during Pledge Weekandahalf, etc. Last month, they were still
trying to hawk tickets to Live From Here the morning of the performance.
(I was surprised it was renewed after its first 13-week run.) He who
must not be named -- Garrison Keillor -- routinely had big stars from
both Broadway (Joel Grey almost every year, for instance) and opera,
whereas I never heard of any of the guest performers this time round.
Post by RH Draney
...the "Town of the Week" had
been selected as some place where a major industry was the extraction of
kaolin, which the Chinese-American announcer assumed was pronounced "cow
lynn"....r
! Diversity in Milwaukee!
Peter Moylan
2018-05-30 01:45:55 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Whiskers
When it first appeared in the trendy foody magazine articles and
shops, few people knew where it came from. New words starting with
a Q are sometimes of Chinese origin and meant to be pronounced as
Sh or Ch, which is probably why 'sheen wha' happened. 'Kwin oa' is
just the straightforward English pronounciation of the word.
So that's how you'd pronounciate it?...
I'm reminded of a latter episode of Michael Feldman's "Whad'ya Know?"
before it moved to a podcast-only venue...the "Town of the Week" had
been selected as some place where a major industry was the
extraction of kaolin, which the Chinese-American announcer assumed
was pronounced "cow lynn"....r
I initially thought that quinoa was pronounced "kwin oa", but that was
quickly corrected to "kin wah".

Very vaguely I recall a Chinese person who briefly visited AUE, and who
was obviously under the impression that Q was pronounce "ch" in English.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2018-05-29 21:37:27 UTC
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Post by Whiskers
[...]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Whiskers
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"? For quinoa, my wife says KEENoa ['kɪjnəʊ̯ɑ], so I do too;
I've never heard another British person say it, but I'd expect kinOa
[kɪ'nəʊ̯ə].
That one's tricky. I've heard 'sheen wha' here in London, but
'kwin oa' is the usual, or an occasional 'keen wha'.
The last is probably closest to a Spanish pronunciation, as the Spanish
wikiparticle spells it quinua or quínoa, both indicating initial
stress. (It's from a Quechua word kínua or kinuwa, but it looks Spanish
and comes to us via Spanish). The first pronunciation you give is
totally crazy and the second is not much better.
When it first appeared in the trendy foody magazine articles and
shops, few people knew where it came from. New words starting
with a Q are sometimes of Chinese origin and meant to be
pronounced as Sh or Ch, which is probably why 'sheen wha'
happened.
If you mean Pinyin q, it's ch, never sh. A more intense ch (to my ears)
than the one written ch, in fact.

And it's rarely followed by u. So if I see "qi" in a foreign-looking
word, I have a tendency to use the "Chinese" reading and say /tSi/, but
not for "qui". Checking, "que" and "quan" are the only possible
Mandarin syllable that have qu+vowel.
--
Was den Juengeren fehlt, sind keine Botschaften, es ist der Sinn
fuer Zusammenhaenge. [Young people aren't short of messages, but
of a sense for interconnections.]
-- Helen Feng im Zeit-Interview
Mark Brader
2018-05-28 20:28:06 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"?
Unfortunately I can't lay my hands on my copy of this 1982 book:

Loading Image...

But I've teased the following text from it out of Google Books:

# The Mayans and Aztecs made from the beans of the cacao tree
# a drink that they called "xocoatl". The conquering Spanish
# returned home with "chocolate" (choh-coh-LAH-tay) in 1528.
# A royal wedding (in 1615) brought the drink to France, where
# they called it "chocolat" (shoh-coh-LAH). It quickly crossed
# the Channel, and the English welcomed the "chocolata" (Stubbes,
# 1662), "jocolatte" (Pepys, 1664), "jacolatte" (Evelyn, 1682),
# and "chockelet" (Evelyn again, 1684). In fact, it was not until
# chocolate came to the United States that people began spelling
# and pronouncing it correctly: "CHOCOLATE".

(Here "..." represents italics and "oh" represents an "o" with a macron.)

The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Save our planet: it's the only one with chocolate"
***@vex.net | --Bumper sticker

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-29 00:32:30 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"?
http://d3nc0ar6dmrp7n.cloudfront.net/images/journalpics/521/52/5210752.jpg
# The Mayans and Aztecs made from the beans of the cacao tree
# a drink that they called "xocoatl".
Should be "xocolatl".
Post by Mark Brader
The conquering Spanish
# returned home with "chocolate" (choh-coh-LAH-tay) in 1528.
# A royal wedding (in 1615) brought the drink to France, where
# they called it "chocolat" (shoh-coh-LAH). It quickly crossed
# the Channel, and the English welcomed the "chocolata" (Stubbes,
# 1662), "jocolatte" (Pepys, 1664), "jacolatte" (Evelyn, 1682),
# and "chockelet" (Evelyn again, 1684). In fact, it was not until
# chocolate came to the United States that people began spelling
# and pronouncing it correctly: "CHOCOLATE".
:-)
Post by Mark Brader
(Here "..." represents italics and "oh" represents an "o" with a macron.)
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
--
Jerry Friedman
RH Draney
2018-05-29 01:09:22 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Did Farfel speak Hippopotamese?



....r
Garrett Wollman
2018-05-29 01:36:30 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Both of these pronunciations are in wide use. I'll not make a claim
for which one is "correct", but the latter is the one that I use (and
I don't have the low back merger). Distinctly /O/. OTOH, the I can
only go along with "lit" if you consider any unstressed short "i" to
be a shwi -- in my pronunciation there's barely any vowel there at
all.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-29 02:46:45 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Both of these pronunciations are in wide use. I'll not make a claim
for which one is "correct", but the latter is the one that I use (and
I don't have the low back merger). Distinctly /O/.
I suspect the influence of "chalk".
Post by Garrett Wollman
OTOH, the I can
only go along with "lit" if you consider any unstressed short "i" to
be a shwi --
That's what I had in mind. I don't have the Russias-rushes distinction.
Post by Garrett Wollman
in my pronunciation there's barely any vowel there at
all.
Sounds as if we say it about the same way.
--
Jerry Friedman
LFS
2018-05-29 15:01:16 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Both of these pronunciations are in wide use.  I'll not make a claim
for which one is "correct", but the latter is the one that I use (and
I don't have the low back merger).  Distinctly /O/.
I suspect the influence of "chalk".
OTOH, the I can
only go along with "lit" if you consider any unstressed short "i" to
be a shwi --
That's what I had in mind.  I don't have the Russias-rushes distinction.
in my pronunciation there's barely any vowel there at
all.
Sounds as if we say it about the same way.
I have eaten chocolate with Garrett, long ago in Boston, but I can't
remember how he pronounced it.

Lloyd Grossman says "chawk-lit".
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-29 16:40:05 UTC
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Post by LFS
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Both of these pronunciations are in wide use.  I'll not make a claim
for which one is "correct", but the latter is the one that I use (and
I don't have the low back merger).  Distinctly /O/.
I suspect the influence of "chalk".
OTOH, the I can
only go along with "lit" if you consider any unstressed short "i" to
be a shwi --
That's what I had in mind.  I don't have the Russias-rushes distinction.
in my pronunciation there's barely any vowel there at
all.
Sounds as if we say it about the same way.
I have eaten chocolate with Garrett, long ago in Boston, but I can't
remember how he pronounced it.
Lloyd Grossman says "chawk-lit".
If you can find me some "95%" (just barely not too bitter to be eaten
straight, but there's almost no sugar; "sugar-free" candy these days
is sweetened with "sugar alcohols," which may not contribute to calorie
count but do contribute to glucose content and in addition cause diarrhea), I, too, will say it that way for you.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-29 06:25:32 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"?
http://d3nc0ar6dmrp7n.cloudfront.net/images/journalpics/521/52/5210752.jpg
# The Mayans and Aztecs made from the beans of the cacao tree
# a drink that they called "xocoatl".
Should be "xocolatl".
Post by Mark Brader
The conquering Spanish
# returned home with "chocolate" (choh-coh-LAH-tay) in 1528.
# A royal wedding (in 1615) brought the drink to France, where
# they called it "chocolat" (shoh-coh-LAH). It quickly crossed
# the Channel, and the English welcomed the "chocolata" (Stubbes,
# 1662), "jocolatte" (Pepys, 1664), "jacolatte" (Evelyn, 1682),
# and "chockelet" (Evelyn again, 1684). In fact, it was not until
# chocolate came to the United States that people began spelling
# and pronouncing it correctly: "CHOCOLATE".
:-)
Post by Mark Brader
(Here "..." represents italics and "oh" represents an "o" with a macron.)
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Isn't "CHAWK" just an American way of representing the sound British
people would write as "CHOCK"?
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2018-05-29 08:13:32 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"?
http://d3nc0ar6dmrp7n.cloudfront.net/images/journalpics/521/52/5210752.jpg
#     The Mayans and Aztecs made from the beans of the cacao tree
#     a drink that they called "xocoatl".
Should be "xocolatl".
Post by Mark Brader
The conquering Spanish
#     returned home with "chocolate" (choh-coh-LAH-tay) in 1528.
#     A royal wedding (in 1615) brought the drink to France, where
#     they called it "chocolat" (shoh-coh-LAH).  It quickly crossed
#     the Channel, and the English welcomed the "chocolata" (Stubbes,
#     1662), "jocolatte" (Pepys, 1664), "jacolatte" (Evelyn, 1682),
#     and "chockelet" (Evelyn again, 1684).  In fact, it was not until
#     chocolate came to the United States that people began spelling
#     and pronouncing it correctly: "CHOCOLATE".
:-)
Post by Mark Brader
(Here "..." represents italics and "oh" represents an "o" with a macron.)
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Isn't "CHAWK" just an American way of representing the sound British
people would write as "CHOCK"?
You think? Isn't it more like the other way round, that us Brits hear
the American pronunciation of 'choc' as 'chawk'?
--
Katy Jennison
Steve Hayes
2018-06-09 15:46:49 UTC
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Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t
is trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do
Americans say "chocolate"?
http://d3nc0ar6dmrp7n.cloudfront.net/images/
journalpics/521/52/5210752.jpg
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
#     The Mayans and Aztecs made from the beans of the cacao tree
#     a drink that they called "xocoatl".
Should be "xocolatl".
Post by Mark Brader
The conquering Spanish #     returned home with "chocolate"
(choh-coh-LAH-tay) in 1528. #     A royal wedding (in 1615) brought
the drink to France, where #     they called it "chocolat"
(shoh-coh-LAH).  It quickly crossed #     the Channel, and the
English welcomed the "chocolata" (Stubbes, #     1662), "jocolatte"
(Pepys, 1664), "jacolatte" (Evelyn, 1682), #     and "chockelet"
(Evelyn again, 1684).  In fact, it was not until #     chocolate came
to the United States that people began spelling #     and pronouncing
it correctly: "CHOCOLATE".
:-)
Post by Mark Brader
(Here "..." represents italics and "oh" represents an "o" with a macron.)
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Isn't "CHAWK" just an American way of representing the sound British
people would write as "CHOCK"?
You think? Isn't it more like the other way round, that us Brits hear
the American pronunciation of 'choc' as 'chawk'?
No, you Brits probably hear the South African pronunciation of "chalk" as
"chawk".
--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com
Richard Tobin
2018-06-09 16:05:44 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Katy Jennison
You think? Isn't it more like the other way round, that us Brits hear
the American pronunciation of 'choc' as 'chawk'?
No, you Brits probably hear the South African pronunciation of "chalk" as
"chawk".
I hear the British pronunciation of "chalk" as "chawk"! That is,
"chalk" rhymes with "hawk".

-- Richard
s***@gowanhill.com
2018-05-29 08:46:40 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Isn't "CHAWK" just an American way of representing the sound British
people would write as "CHOCK"?
The Queen probably says chawklet.

Prince Charles has rather strange vowels sometimes.

The Royal Family really dun't speak proper English like wot you and I did orter.

Owain
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-29 11:58:56 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Isn't "CHAWK" just an American way of representing the sound British
people would write as "CHOCK"?
Only if you don't distinguish "chock" and "chalk." Are you perhaps a
cot/caught mergerer?
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-29 14:20:18 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"?
http://d3nc0ar6dmrp7n.cloudfront.net/images/journalpics/521/52/5210752.jpg
#     The Mayans and Aztecs made from the beans of the cacao tree
#     a drink that they called "xocoatl".
Should be "xocolatl".
Post by Mark Brader
The conquering Spanish
#     returned home with "chocolate" (choh-coh-LAH-tay) in 1528.
#     A royal wedding (in 1615) brought the drink to France, where
#     they called it "chocolat" (shoh-coh-LAH).  It quickly crossed
#     the Channel, and the English welcomed the "chocolata" (Stubbes,
#     1662), "jocolatte" (Pepys, 1664), "jacolatte" (Evelyn, 1682),
#     and "chockelet" (Evelyn again, 1684).  In fact, it was not until
#     chocolate came to the United States that people began spelling
#     and pronouncing it correctly: "CHOCOLATE".
:-)
Post by Mark Brader
(Here "..." represents italics and "oh" represents an "o" with a macron.)
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Isn't "CHAWK" just an American way of representing the sound British
people would write as "CHOCK"?
It's that, but not just that. Garrett and I both distinguish between
"cot" and "caught" (although I'm not completely consistent), so when we
write "chawk", we don't mean "chock".
--
Jerry Friedman
Garrett Wollman
2018-05-29 15:02:51 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Isn't "CHAWK" just an American way of representing the sound British
people would write as "CHOCK"?
It's that, but not just that. Garrett and I both distinguish between
"cot" and "caught" (although I'm not completely consistent), so when we
write "chawk", we don't mean "chock".
To be more specific, with cot-caught unmerged and father-bother
merged, we have /O/ and /A/. The BrE cot/bother vowel is transcribed
as /A./ but we don't have that vowel, and the rounding makes it sound
more like /O/ to us, and the usual[1] respelling transcription for that
is <aw>. (Dictionaries tend to use different respellings, with
diacritics: AHD uses <ô> and Merriam-Webster uses <ȯ>.)

I have no idea how it sounds to someone who has the full low back
merger (both production and reception).

-GAWollman

[1] As seen in the press and in Wikipedia.
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
David Kleinecke
2018-05-29 16:51:07 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Isn't "CHAWK" just an American way of representing the sound British
people would write as "CHOCK"?
It's that, but not just that. Garrett and I both distinguish between
"cot" and "caught" (although I'm not completely consistent), so when we
write "chawk", we don't mean "chock".
To be more specific, with cot-caught unmerged and father-bother
merged, we have /O/ and /A/. The BrE cot/bother vowel is transcribed
as /A./ but we don't have that vowel, and the rounding makes it sound
more like /O/ to us, and the usual[1] respelling transcription for that
is <aw>. (Dictionaries tend to use different respellings, with
diacritics: AHD uses <ô> and Merriam-Webster uses <ȯ>.)
I have no idea how it sounds to someone who has the full low back
merger (both production and reception).
It's all one vowel in my speech - father, bother, cot
and caught - but what that vowel sounds like to people
who speak other dialects I don't know.
Steve Hayes
2018-06-09 15:43:22 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Isn't "CHAWK" just an American way of representing the sound British
people would write as "CHOCK"?
I think it's the American way of representing the sound others would
represent by "chahk", or "chark".
--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-06-09 16:37:17 UTC
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On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:43:22 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
Isn't "CHAWK" just an American way of representing the sound British
people would write as "CHOCK"?
I think it's the American way of representing the sound others would
represent by "chahk", or "chark".
This has four soundclips of "chalk":
https://forvo.com/word/chalk/#en

That by "mooncow (Male from United Kingdom)" is what we Brits would
represent as "chawk".

That by "rdbedsole (Male from United States)" is close to BrE "chock",
althougn not with a Brit accent.

The other two have the "al" as different types of "ah".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-29 11:30:48 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like others, I'm surprised to see potato on that list (the second t is
trivial), and I'm also surprised to see chocolate: how do Americans say
"chocolate"?
http://d3nc0ar6dmrp7n.cloudfront.net/images/journalpics/521/52/5210752.jpg
# The Mayans and Aztecs made from the beans of the cacao tree
# a drink that they called "xocoatl".
Should be "xocolatl".
Post by Mark Brader
The conquering Spanish
# returned home with "chocolate" (choh-coh-LAH-tay) in 1528.
# A royal wedding (in 1615) brought the drink to France, where
# they called it "chocolat" (shoh-coh-LAH). It quickly crossed
# the Channel, and the English welcomed the "chocolata" (Stubbes,
# 1662), "jocolatte" (Pepys, 1664), "jacolatte" (Evelyn, 1682),
# and "chockelet" (Evelyn again, 1684). In fact, it was not until
# chocolate came to the United States that people began spelling
# and pronouncing it correctly: "CHOCOLATE".
:-)
Post by Mark Brader
(Here "..." represents italics and "oh" represents an "o" with a macron.)
The next thing is an illustration which appears not to be available
online, but I remember it well: it's a cartoon of a hippopotamus
giving the "correct" pronunciation: "CHOCK-lit".
No, no: "CHAWK-lit".
That's Scottish!
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-28 23:16:38 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
     each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
     and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
     said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
     mashup of two cultures."
I wonder what other food names might have been used.
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
It should.
Why?
Post by occam
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
So did I. However, R interpreted it differently, or pretended to, and I
briefly went along before going back to my real interpretation.
Post by occam
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
Good ones. I certainly should have remembered "basil", since we talked
about it recently.
--
Jerry Friedman
Steve Hayes
2018-06-09 15:34:40 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
It should.
What is the difference?
Post by occam
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
I get basil, not sure about the others.

Haven't a clue what quinoa is.
--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-06-09 15:41:30 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
It should.
What is the difference?
Post by occam
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
I get basil, not sure about the others.
Haven't a clue what quinoa is.
Are you living in a cave in the Kalahari? It's the superfood to end
all superfoods (allegedly) ...

<Loading Image...>
Peter Moylan
2018-06-11 04:12:00 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Steve Hayes
Haven't a clue what quinoa is.
Are you living in a cave in the Kalahari? It's the superfood to end
all superfoods (allegedly) ...
<http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/properties/edisonlee/art_images/cg5826458588a10.jpg>
Superfoods have a short shelf life. By the time Steve has looked it up,
it will be out of fashion.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2018-06-09 22:30:34 UTC
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...
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by occam
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
I get basil, not sure about the others.
...
I think most of them were addressed in the thread. The first
pronunciation of "turmeric" in AHD and M-W is the same as the only
pronunciation in the OED, aside from rhoticism, but for reasons I don't
understand, the pronunciations TOO-mer-ic and TYOO-mer-ic (or
CHOO-mer-ic) are common in America. Those may be what occam was
thinking of.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ross
2018-06-09 22:58:16 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by occam
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
I get basil, not sure about the others.
...
I think most of them were addressed in the thread. The first
pronunciation of "turmeric" in AHD and M-W is the same as the only
pronunciation in the OED, aside from rhoticism, but for reasons I don't
understand, the pronunciations TOO-mer-ic and TYOO-mer-ic (or
CHOO-mer-ic) are common in America. Those may be what occam was
thinking of.
--
Jerry Friedman
I hear TYOO- here, too, recently. (It's being marketed as a health
supplement.) Pre-recently, I probably heard it mentioned only by
anthropologists talking about its uses (mainly for colouring) in the
Pacific islands. It was always T@(R)-. That's the only pronunciation
given in any of the pronunciation authorities (Br and Am) I looked at.
There is no justification for TYOO- in its rather obscure etymology
either. (It seems to be from Medieval Latin terra merita, whatever
that meant.)

I think there's an idea that unfamiliar words beginning with tu- have
a "correcter" pronunciation TYOO-. Either because the resulting syllable
TYOORM- is overloaded, or from some (unfortunate) association with
"tumor", people drop the R.
Quinn C
2018-06-12 22:47:59 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by occam
However, I wonder if your interpretation of "each table was named for a
food that is said differently" is different from mine. I interpret the
challenge as "same word, different pronunciation"
Here are my additional words: quinoa, quinoa, basil, basil, paprika,
paprika, chocolate, chocolate, turmeric, turmeric...
I get basil, not sure about the others.
...
I think most of them were addressed in the thread. The first
pronunciation of "turmeric" in AHD and M-W is the same as the only
pronunciation in the OED, aside from rhoticism, but for reasons I don't
understand, the pronunciations TOO-mer-ic and TYOO-mer-ic (or
CHOO-mer-ic) are common in America. Those may be what occam was
thinking of.
--
Jerry Friedman
I hear TYOO- here, too, recently. (It's being marketed as a health
supplement.) Pre-recently, I probably heard it mentioned only by
anthropologists talking about its uses (mainly for colouring) in the
given in any of the pronunciation authorities (Br and Am) I looked at.
There is no justification for TYOO- in its rather obscure etymology
either. (It seems to be from Medieval Latin terra merita, whatever
that meant.)
I think there's an idea that unfamiliar words beginning with tu- have
a "correcter" pronunciation TYOO-. Either because the resulting syllable
TYOORM- is overloaded, or from some (unfortunate) association with
"tumor", people drop the R.
"Tumeric" is a relatively common misspelling, and the pronunciation
T(Y)OO- may be used by people who believe that it is the correct one,
or at least a valid alternative.
--
Was den Juengeren fehlt, sind keine Botschaften, es ist der Sinn
fuer Zusammenhaenge. [Young people aren't short of messages, but
of a sense for interconnections.]
-- Helen Feng im Zeit-Interview
RH Draney
2018-06-13 00:58:52 UTC
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Post by Ross
I think there's an idea that unfamiliar words beginning with tu- have
a "correcter" pronunciation TYOO-. Either because the resulting syllable
TYOORM- is overloaded, or from some (unfortunate) association with
"tumor", people drop the R.
They don't drop it...they just transfer it to another word, such as
"sherbert"....r
Joseph C. Fineman
2018-06-13 21:14:09 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Ross
I think there's an idea that unfamiliar words beginning with tu- have
a "correcter" pronunciation TYOO-. Either because the resulting syllable
TYOORM- is overloaded, or from some (unfortunate) association with
"tumor", people drop the R.
They don't drop it...they just transfer it to another word, such as
"sherbert"....r
Likewise, the people who say "asterik" have not actually lost the s;
they have moved it to "stastistics".
--
--- Joe Fineman ***@verizon.net

||: Faith is belief for which evidence is not needed, because it :||
||: is backed up with the threat of a beating. :||
musika
2018-05-26 23:51:42 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
I don't see why not. The second t is pronounced differently in each
language.
--
Ray
UK
Katy Jennison
2018-05-27 16:26:43 UTC
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Post by musika
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
I don't see why not. The second t is pronounced differently in each
language.
As is the first o.
--
Katy Jennison
musika
2018-05-27 17:29:32 UTC
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Post by Katy Jennison
Post by musika
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
I don't see why not. The second t is pronounced differently in each
language.
As is the first o.
Really? I've only heard a shwa from speakers of both USE and BriE.
--
Ray
UK
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-27 17:37:58 UTC
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Post by musika
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
I don't see why not. The second t is pronounced differently in each
language.
Only in the regular way in which the two dialects differ, not in the way
that "tomayto" differs from "tomahto". If you're going to count that,
you could also count "corn", "mustard", etc.
--
Jerry Friedman
RH Draney
2018-05-27 01:36:20 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
Gershwin, that is...had to look it up just last week when I came up with
"you say Laurel and I say Yanny"....
Post by Jerry Friedman
There could have been chips/French fries, aubergine/eggplant,
cos/romaine, and rocket/arugula.  If they were limiting it to names with
the same spelling... hm... "scone" (cue usual discussion) sort of qualifies.
Courgette/zucchini, coriander/cilantro....r
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-05-27 11:14:41 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think "potato" should have been on the list, /pace/ Cole Porter.
Gershwin, that is...had to look it up just last week when I came up with
"you say Laurel and I say Yanny"....
Post by Jerry Friedman
There could have been chips/French fries, aubergine/eggplant,
cos/romaine, and rocket/arugula.  If they were limiting it to names with
the same spelling... hm... "scone" (cue usual discussion) sort of qualifies.
Courgette/zucchini, coriander/cilantro....r
It would appear from the original quote that it was not foods
with alternative names but foods with a single name that is
pronounced differently on either pondside, a considerably
greater challenge for the organisers.
RH Draney
2018-05-27 14:53:23 UTC
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Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
There could have been chips/French fries, aubergine/eggplant,
cos/romaine, and rocket/arugula.  If they were limiting it to names with
the same spelling... hm... "scone" (cue usual discussion) sort of qualifies.
Courgette/zucchini, coriander/cilantro....r
It would appear from the original quote that it was not foods
with alternative names but foods with a single name that is
pronounced differently on either pondside, a considerably
greater challenge for the organisers.
Was there a table labeled "pasta", then?...r
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-27 17:06:29 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
There could have been chips/French fries, aubergine/eggplant,
cos/romaine, and rocket/arugula.  If they were limiting it to names with
the same spelling... hm... "scone" (cue usual discussion) sort of qualifies.
Courgette/zucchini, coriander/cilantro....r
It would appear from the original quote that it was not foods
with alternative names but foods with a single name that is
pronounced differently on either pondside, a considerably
greater challenge for the organisers.
Was there a table labeled "pasta", then?...r
Or "scallop"?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-27 17:40:17 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by RH Draney
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
There could have been chips/French fries, aubergine/eggplant,
cos/romaine, and rocket/arugula.  If they were limiting it to names with
the same spelling... hm... "scone" (cue usual discussion) sort of qualifies.
Courgette/zucchini, coriander/cilantro....r
It would appear from the original quote that it was not foods
with alternative names but foods with a single name that is
pronounced differently on either pondside, a considerably
greater challenge for the organisers.
Was there a table labeled "pasta", then?...r
Or "scallop"?
Or pasta's relative, "pâté"?
--
Jerry Friedman
s***@gowanhill.com
2018-05-27 21:40:56 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Or pasta's relative, "pâté"?
If you mean pah-tay, that's standard Home Counties English AFAIAA, at least to a certain generation.

Owain
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-29 02:43:44 UTC
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Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Or pasta's relative, "pâté"?
If you mean pah-tay, that's standard Home Counties English AFAIAA, at least to a certain generation.
In the U.S. it's accented on the second syllable. The only
pronunciation in the OED is accented on the first syllable (/ˈpateɪ/,
that is, PAT-ay).
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-29 06:31:10 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Or pasta's relative, "pâté"?
If you mean pah-tay, that's standard Home Counties English AFAIAA, at
least to a certain generation.
In the U.S. it's accented on the second syllable. The only
pronunciation in the OED is accented on the first syllable (/ˈpateɪ/,
that is, PAT-ay).
That just reflects the American conviction that all French words must
be heavily stressed on the last syllable, as opposed to the British
conviction that they're stressed on the first syllable. If they're
trying to sound French they're both wrong. If they're trying to use the
usual English pronunciation of people around them they're both right.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-29 12:01:56 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Or pasta's relative, "pâté"?
If you mean pah-tay, that's standard Home Counties English AFAIAA, at
least to a certain generation.
In the U.S. it's accented on the second syllable. The only
pronunciation in the OED is accented on the first syllable (/ˈpateɪ/,
that is, PAT-ay).
That just reflects the American conviction that all French words must
be heavily stressed on the last syllable,
Wrong. Even though French-speakers can't hear the stress because it's
not phonemic (no two words are distinguished by stress placement), there
is in fact a light stress on the last syllable (other than shwa) of a
breath group.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
as opposed to the British
conviction that they're stressed on the first syllable.
That does not correspond to phonetic reality.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
If they're
trying to sound French they're both wrong. If they're trying to use the
usual English pronunciation of people around them they're both right.
The AmE pronunciation of "paté" might show secondary stress on the first
syllable (with a long vowel) and primary stress on the second syllable.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-29 13:35:32 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Or pasta's relative, "pâté"?
If you mean pah-tay, that's standard Home Counties English AFAIAA, at
least to a certain generation.
In the U.S. it's accented on the second syllable. The only
pronunciation in the OED is accented on the first syllable (/ˈpate
ɪ/,
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
that is, PAT-ay).
That just reflects the American conviction that all French words must
be heavily stressed on the last syllable,
Wrong. Even though French-speakers can't hear the stress because it's
not phonemic (no two words are distinguished by stress placement), there
is in fact a light stress on the last syllable (other than shwa) of a
breath group.
Yes, of course, but that's not how English speakers perceive it.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
as opposed to the British
conviction that they're stressed on the first syllable.
That does not correspond to phonetic reality.
Nobody said it did. I'm saying what people with no training in
phonetics think they hear.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
If they're
trying to sound French they're both wrong. If they're trying to use the
usual English pronunciation of people around them they're both right.
The AmE pronunciation of "paté" might show secondary stress on the fir
st
syllable (with a long vowel) and primary stress on the second syllable.
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2018-05-30 01:56:08 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Or pasta's relative, "pâté"?
If you mean pah-tay, that's standard Home Counties English
AFAIAA, at least to a certain generation.
In the U.S. it's accented on the second syllable. The only
pronunciation in the OED is accented on the first syllable
(/ˈpateɪ/, that is, PAT-ay).
That just reflects the American conviction that all French words must
be heavily stressed on the last syllable, as opposed to the British
conviction that they're stressed on the first syllable. If they're
trying to sound French they're both wrong. If they're trying to use
the usual English pronunciation of people around them they're both
right.
I've just been to a clinical session about the hand condition known as
Dupuytren's contracture. Since it's named after a Frenchman I was
naturally inclined to pronounce the name in the French way. The medicos
at the clinic completely threw me by saying something like Jupitren.

A US web site on the condition gives the pronunciation du-pwe-TRANZ,
which sounds just as weird to me with that final-syllable stress.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Ross
2018-05-30 02:50:13 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Or pasta's relative, "pâté"?
If you mean pah-tay, that's standard Home Counties English
AFAIAA, at least to a certain generation.
In the U.S. it's accented on the second syllable. The only
pronunciation in the OED is accented on the first syllable
(/ˈpateɪ/, that is, PAT-ay).
That just reflects the American conviction that all French words must
be heavily stressed on the last syllable, as opposed to the British
conviction that they're stressed on the first syllable. If they're
trying to sound French they're both wrong. If they're trying to use
the usual English pronunciation of people around them they're both
right.
I've just been to a clinical session about the hand condition known as
Dupuytren's contracture. Since it's named after a Frenchman I was
naturally inclined to pronounce the name in the French way. The medicos
at the clinic completely threw me by saying something like Jupitren.
A US web site on the condition gives the pronunciation du-pwe-TRANZ,
which sounds just as weird to me with that final-syllable stress.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
FWIW Wiki gives [dypɥitʁɛ̃ ] for the French anatomist-surgeon after whom
it's named.
s***@gowanhill.com
2018-05-27 16:36:59 UTC
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a considerably greater challenge for the organisers.
You don't think they did their own table-naming, then?

Owain
Whiskers
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Janina Gavankar, one of the guests at the wedding of Harry and Meghan
each table was named for a food that is said differently in America
and the U.K. "Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, oregano, oregano," she
said. "It was so sweet. There were so many nods to the beautiful
mashup of two cultures."
I wonder what other food names might have been used.
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-prince-harry-honored-their-cultures-royal-wedding-reception/
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/fashion-trends/a20901371/janina-gavankar-royal-wedding-reception-interview/
That list should surely contain any foodstuff whose name contains
a vowel.
--
^^^^^^^^^^
Whiskers
~~~~~~~~~~


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