Discussion:
How to pronounce "toRadians"?
(too old to reply)
Stefan Ram
2018-02-20 23:16:13 UTC
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There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
I.e., is it

təˈreɪdiənz

or

tuˈreɪdiənz

? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:

»Usually pronounced (tə) before a consonant and
(tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tuː) when
you are emphasizing it.«.
Jack
2018-02-21 00:11:00 UTC
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On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
wrote:

> There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
> called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
> name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
> I.e., is it
>
>t??re?di?nz
>
> or
>
>tu?re?di?nz
>
> ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
>
> »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
> (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
> you are emphasizing it.«.

It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
radians'.

--
John
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-02-21 00:26:50 UTC
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On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> wrote:
>
> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
> > I.e., is it
> >
> >t??re?di?nz
> >
> > or
> >
> >tu?re?di?nz
> >
> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
> >
> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
> > you are emphasizing it.«.
>
> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
> radians'.
>
On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
Mark Brader
2018-02-21 00:42:01 UTC
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Stefan Ram:
>>> There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
>>> called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
>>> name of this method...

"John":
>> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
>> radians'.

I agree. Thus neatly ducking the question of whether the "to" is reduced
to "tuh".

Barry Etheridge:
> On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
> or any other computer code 'words' come to that?

I happened to see this response, so I'll answer: on any occasion
when reading code aloud to someone, or when discussing the keyword
in question. Which is to say, all the time.
--
Mark Brader | "I don't care HOW you format char c; while ((c =
Toronto | getchar()) != EOF) putchar(c); ... this code is
***@vex.net | a bug waiting to happen from the outset." -- Doug Gwyn

My text in this article is in the public domain.
John Varela
2018-02-21 18:36:47 UTC
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On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 00:42:01 UTC, ***@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

> Stefan Ram:
> >>> There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
> >>> called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
> >>> name of this method...
>
> "John":
> >> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
> >> radians'.
>
> I agree. Thus neatly ducking the question of whether the "to" is reduced
> to "tuh".
>
> Barry Etheridge:
> > On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
> > or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
>
> I happened to see this response, so I'll answer: on any occasion
> when reading code aloud to someone, or when discussing the keyword
> in question. Which is to say, all the time.

And when talking to oneself about how to approach the problem.

--
John Varela
Lewis
2018-02-21 06:52:32 UTC
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In message <25a73eb0-2f36-40bb-a7dd-***@googlegroups.com> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
>> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>> wrote:
>>
>> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
>> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
>> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
>> > I.e., is it
>> >
>> >t??re?di?nz
>> >
>> > or
>> >
>> >tu?re?di?nz
>> >
>> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
>> >
>> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
>> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
>> > you are emphasizing it.«.
>>
>> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
>> radians'.
>>
> On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
> or any other computer code 'words' come to that?

When talking about code to other programmers, of course.

There is a great variety of pronunciation of these sorts of words. For
example, the lib- prefix is used in all sorts of code for libraries
(libgcrypt) and sometimes as a postfix (giflib).

Some people pronounce this with a long i, as in library, and some with a
short i, as in liberty.

MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
the person.

Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
'jif'.

--
I have seen the truth and it makes no sense.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-02-21 11:47:54 UTC
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On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 06:52:32 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <25a73eb0-2f36-40bb-a7dd-***@googlegroups.com> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
>>> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
>>> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
>>> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
>>> > I.e., is it
>>> >
>>> >t??re?di?nz
>>> >
>>> > or
>>> >
>>> >tu?re?di?nz
>>> >
>>> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
>>> >
>>> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
>>> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
>>> > you are emphasizing it.«.
>>>
>>> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
>>> radians'.
>>>
>> On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
>> or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
>
>When talking about code to other programmers, of course.

Also when reading silently or talking to yourself silently, hearing the
sound in your mind.

>
>There is a great variety of pronunciation of these sorts of words. For
>example, the lib- prefix is used in all sorts of code for libraries
>(libgcrypt) and sometimes as a postfix (giflib).
>
>Some people pronounce this with a long i, as in library, and some with a
>short i, as in liberty.
>
>MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
>the person.
>
>Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
>'jif'.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Adam Funk
2018-02-21 13:08:42 UTC
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On 2018-02-21, Lewis wrote:

> In message <25a73eb0-2f36-40bb-a7dd-***@googlegroups.com> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:

>>> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
>>> radians'.

So do I.

>> On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
>> or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
>
> When talking about code to other programmers, of course.

Yes.

> There is a great variety of pronunciation of these sorts of words. For
> example, the lib- prefix is used in all sorts of code for libraries
> (libgcrypt) and sometimes as a postfix (giflib).
>
> Some people pronounce this with a long i, as in library, and some with a
> short i, as in liberty.

Cf. "bin", which was originally short for "binary/ies".

> MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
> the person.

It turns out they're not the same thing:
<https://xkcd.com/1957/> (5th entry)


--
The three-martini lunch is the epitome of American efficiency.
Where else can you get an earful, a bellyful and a snootful at
the same time? --- Gerald Ford
RH Draney
2018-02-21 13:24:49 UTC
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On 2/20/2018 11:52 PM, Lewis wrote:
>
> Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
> 'jif'.

That's the Giraffic Interchange Format....r
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-02-21 16:43:32 UTC
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On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 06:24:49 -0700, RH Draney <***@cox.net> wrote:

>On 2/20/2018 11:52 PM, Lewis wrote:
>>
>> Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
>> 'jif'.
>
>That's the Giraffic Interchange Format....r

Examples can be seen in Giraffic Park, perhaps.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Default User
2018-02-21 18:30:15 UTC
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Lewis wrote:

> In message <25a73eb0-2f36-40bb-a7dd-***@googlegroups.com>
> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
> >> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
> >> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
> >> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
> >> > I.e., is it
> >> >
> >> >t??re?di?nz
> >> >
> >> > or
> >> >
> >> >tu?re?di?nz
> >> >
> >> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
> >> >
> >> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
> >> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
> >> > you are emphasizing it.«.
> >>
> >> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it-
> 'to >> radians'.
> >>
> > On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
> > or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
>
> When talking about code to other programmers, of course.
>
> There is a great variety of pronunciation of these sorts of words. For
> example, the lib- prefix is used in all sorts of code for libraries
> (libgcrypt) and sometimes as a postfix (giflib).
>
> Some people pronounce this with a long i, as in library, and some
> with a short i, as in liberty.
>
> MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
> the person.
>
> Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
> 'jif'.

The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
"Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".


Brian
Adam Funk
2018-02-21 22:16:03 UTC
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On 2018-02-21, Default User wrote:

> Lewis wrote:

>> MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
>> the person.
>>
>> Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
>> 'jif'.
>
> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".

And when you meet a LISP user, hilarity ensues (& the rest is gamma
rays?).


--
Civilization is a race between catastrophe and education.
--- H G Wells
Quinn C
2018-02-22 14:20:11 UTC
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* Adam Funk:

> On 2018-02-21, Default User wrote:
>
>> Lewis wrote:
>
>>> MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
>>> the person.
>>>
>>> Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
>>> 'jif'.
>>
>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>
> And when you meet a LISP user, hilarity ensues (& the rest is gamma
> rays?).

Speculation! cdr, shdr, wdr ...

--
The notion that there might be a "truth" of sex, as Foucault
ironically terms it, is produced precisely through the regulatory
practices that generate coherent identities through the matrix of
coherent gender norms. -- Judith Butler
Peter Moylan
2018-02-22 00:47:59 UTC
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On 22/02/18 05:30, Default User wrote:

> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".

Derived languages such as Algol, Pascal, ... .

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mark Brader
2018-02-22 01:39:36 UTC
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"Brian":
> > The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> > "Char".

(Actually that's "char"; it's case-sensitive.)

> > I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> > and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".

Uh-huh.


Peter Moylan:
> Derived languages such as Algol, Pascal, ... .

*Huh?*
--
Mark Brader | "... you're a detective, you like mysteries."
Toronto | "I hate mysteries. What I like are *solutions*."
***@vex.net | --Barbara Paul, "The Apostrophe Thief"
Default User
2018-02-22 06:59:27 UTC
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Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 22/02/18 05:30, Default User wrote:
>
> > The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> > "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> > and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>
> Derived languages such as Algol, Pascal, ... .

I don't believe I said that all languages with that type are derived
from C.


Brian
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-02-22 07:03:28 UTC
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On 2018-02-22 06:59:27 +0000, Default User said:

> Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> On 22/02/18 05:30, Default User wrote:
>>
>>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>>
>> Derived languages such as Algol, Pascal, ... .
>
> I don't believe I said that all languages with that type are derived
> from C.

Maybe not, but that's the natural interpretation of what you did say.



--
athel
Mark Brader
2018-02-22 07:27:44 UTC
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"Brian":
>>>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>>>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>>>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".

Peter Moylan:
>>> Derived languages such as Algol, Pascal, ... .

"Brian":
>> I don't believe I said that all languages with that type are derived
>> from C.

Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> Maybe not, but that's the natural interpretation of what you did say.

What on Earth are you and Peter on about?
--
Mark Brader | "But [this] doesn't help... This is a pointless task."
Toronto | "How long have you worked for the government"?
***@vex.net | --Andy Weir, "The Martian"
Default User
2018-02-22 19:28:49 UTC
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Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2018-02-22 06:59:27 +0000, Default User said:
>
> > Peter Moylan wrote:
> >
> > > On 22/02/18 05:30, Default User wrote:
> > >
> > > > The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages
> > > > is "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in
> > > > charcoal), and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
> > >
> > > Derived languages such as Algol, Pascal, ... .
> >
> > I don't believe I said that all languages with that type are derived
> > from C.
>
> Maybe not, but that's the natural interpretation of what you did say.

It is? If I say that green eyes run in my family, is it a reasonable
interpretation that everyone with green eyes is part of my family?

I have no experience with Algol, and haven't used Pascal in 25 years. I
couldn't have told you without looking what they used for that data
type. I DO have a lot of experience with C and C-derived languages. So
that's what I commented on.


Brian
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-02-22 07:00:41 UTC
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On 2018-02-22 00:47:59 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 22/02/18 05:30, Default User wrote:
>
>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>
> Derived languages such as Algol, Pascal, ... .

Yes. I wondered about that. C++ users don't realize that there was
anything before C.


--
athel
Adam Funk
2018-02-22 16:07:35 UTC
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On 2018-02-22, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2018-02-22 00:47:59 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 22/02/18 05:30, Default User wrote:
>>
>>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>>
>> Derived languages such as Algol, Pascal, ... .
>
> Yes. I wondered about that. C++ users don't realize that there was
> anything before C.

I thought the point of C++ was that you could ignore as much
object-oriented stuff as you want & just write mostly C.


--
[Those cookbooks] seem to consider _everything_ a leftover, which you
must do something with. For instance, cake. This is like telling you
what to do with your leftover whisky. --- Peg Bracken
Glenn Knickerbocker
2018-03-05 17:52:09 UTC
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On 2/22/2018 11:07 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> I thought the point of C++ was that you could ignore as much
> object-oriented stuff as you want & just write mostly C.

That's certainly what I do with ooRexx. Of course, that's just about
the opposite of writing C.

¬R
Adam Funk
2018-03-06 14:23:23 UTC
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On 2018-03-05, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:

> On 2/22/2018 11:07 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>> I thought the point of C++ was that you could ignore as much
>> object-oriented stuff as you want & just write mostly C.
>
> That's certainly what I do with ooRexx. Of course, that's just about
> the opposite of writing C.

Congratulations! You're using a language so obscure that its
Wikipedia page doesn't even have a "hello world" example!!1!


--
Thinking about her this morning, lying in bed, and trying to get my
thoughts on the right track, I reached into the drawer of the bedstand,
and found the Gideons' Bible, and I was going for the Psalms, friend, honest
I was, but I found the Song of Solomon instead. --- Garrison Keillor
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-03-14 12:02:21 UTC
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On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:23:23 GMT, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> On 2018-03-05, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
>
>> On 2/22/2018 11:07 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> I thought the point of C++ was that you could ignore as much
>>> object-oriented stuff as you want & just write mostly C.
>>
>> That's certainly what I do with ooRexx. Of course, that's just about
>> the opposite of writing C.
>
> Congratulations! You're using a language so obscure that its
> Wikipedia page doesn't even have a "hello world" example!!1!
>
>

say 'what?'

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-03-14 12:40:31 UTC
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On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:02:21 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
<***@invalid.org> wrote:

>On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:23:23 GMT, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-03-05, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/22/2018 11:07 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> I thought the point of C++ was that you could ignore as much
>>>> object-oriented stuff as you want & just write mostly C.
>>>
>>> That's certainly what I do with ooRexx. Of course, that's just about
>>> the opposite of writing C.
>>
>> Congratulations! You're using a language so obscure that its
>> Wikipedia page doesn't even have a "hello world" example!!1!
>>
>>
>
>say 'what?'

In the C language:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)#"Hello,_world"_example>

The "hello, world" example, which appeared in the first edition of
K&R, has become the model for an introductory program in most
programming textbooks, regardless of programming language. The
program prints "hello, world" to the standard output, which is
usually a terminal or screen display.

The original version was:

main()
{
printf("hello, world\n");
}

In Fortran:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran#"Hello_world"_example>

"Hello world" example

program helloworld
print *, "Hello world!"
end program helloworld

In Algol 60:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL_60#ALGOL_60_family

BEGIN
FILE F(KIND=REMOTE);
EBCDIC ARRAY E[0:11];
REPLACE E BY "HELLO WORLD!";
WRITE(F, *, E);
END.

A simpler program using an inline format:

BEGIN
FILE F(KIND=REMOTE);
WRITE(F, <"HELLO WORLD!">);
END.

An even simpler program using the Display statement:

BEGIN DISPLAY("HELLO WORLD!") END.

An alternative example, using Elliott Algol I/O is as follows.
Elliott Algol used different characters for "open-string-quote" and
"close-string-quote", represented here by ‘ and ’.

program HiFolks;
begin
print ‘Hello world’
end;


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-03-14 21:01:30 UTC
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On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:40:31 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:02:21 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
> <***@invalid.org> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:23:23 GMT, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-03-05, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/22/2018 11:07 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>> I thought the point of C++ was that you could ignore as much
>>>>> object-oriented stuff as you want & just write mostly C.
>>>>
>>>> That's certainly what I do with ooRexx. Of course, that's just
>>>> about the opposite of writing C.
>>>
>>> Congratulations! You're using a language so obscure that its
>>> Wikipedia page doesn't even have a "hello world" example!!1!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>say 'what?'
>
> In the C language:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)#"Hello,_world"_
> example>
>
> The "hello, world" example, which appeared in the first edition of
> K&R, has become the model for an introductory program in most
> programming textbooks, regardless of programming language. The
> program prints "hello, world" to the standard output, which is
> usually a terminal or screen display.
>
> The original version was:
>
> main()
> {
> printf("hello, world\n");
> }
>
> In Fortran:
[]
erm yes. In REXX it's

say 'Hello World'


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2018-03-14 13:32:11 UTC
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On 14/03/18 23:02, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:23:23 GMT, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-03-05, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/22/2018 11:07 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> I thought the point of C++ was that you could ignore as much
>>>> object-oriented stuff as you want & just write mostly C.
>>>
>>> That's certainly what I do with ooRexx. Of course, that's just
>>> about the opposite of writing C.
>>
>> Congratulations! You're using a language so obscure that its
>> Wikipedia page doesn't even have a "hello world" example!!1!
>
> say 'what?'
>
I am still using Rexx the wonder dog, even though I hate the language,
which is almost as primitive as C, although in a different way. (It's
Basic on the steroids that really ought to be banned.) I have no
intention of touching ooRexx. Object-0rientiented programming is, in my
opinion, an evolutionary dead end. It was an attempt to obtain the
advantages of modular programming without really thinking it through. It
might take people another fifty years to understand this.

The major benefit of C++ and Java is that they have trained users to
believe that program crashes are perfectly normal behaviour.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Tak To
2018-03-14 18:21:34 UTC
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Raw Message
On 3/14/2018 9:32 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 14/03/18 23:02, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
>> On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:23:23 GMT, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-03-05, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/22/2018 11:07 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>> I thought the point of C++ was that you could ignore as much
>>>>> object-oriented stuff as you want & just write mostly C.
>>>>
>>>> That's certainly what I do with ooRexx. Of course, that's just
>>>> about the opposite of writing C.
>>>
>>> Congratulations! You're using a language so obscure that its
>>> Wikipedia page doesn't even have a "hello world" example!!1!
>>
>> say 'what?'
>>
> I am still using Rexx the wonder dog, even though I hate the language,
> which is almost as primitive as C, although in a different way. (It's
> Basic on the steroids that really ought to be banned.) I have no
> intention of touching ooRexx. Object-0rientiented programming is, in my
> opinion, an evolutionary dead end. It was an attempt to obtain the
> advantages of modular programming without really thinking it through.

I disagree on "without thinking it through" in that "thought
through" is not possible to define. O-O has never been a single
idea and there are lots of disagreements as to which aspects
are more important than others. In any case, I think nowadays
there are fewer zealots than before and no one is going to claim
that there is a single paradigm of programming that fits all
situations.

The irony of this is that at the end, business considerations
still outweigh technical ones in terms of what languages or
tools are going to be used.

> It
> might take people another fifty years to understand this.

Well, Simula 67 was created in 1967. It has been 51 years
already.

> The major benefit of C++ and Java is that they have trained users to
> believe that program crashes are perfectly normal behaviour.

This is a rather dim view; but I am not going to start a debate
here.

I am just going to say that in my view, the best thing about C++
is the Standard Template Library, which allows Generic Programming
to be done right; i.e., within the confines of having no object
information available at runtime.

ObAUE: I have always been bothered by the term "polymorphism"
as used in O-O. Polymorphism in chemistry means "same substance,
multiple form", which is exactly the opposite of the O-O
sense of "multiple implementations, same operation-name".

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Lewis
2018-02-22 04:52:08 UTC
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In message <p6kdrm$11vv$***@gioia.aioe.org> Default User <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Lewis wrote:

>> In message <25a73eb0-2f36-40bb-a7dd-***@googlegroups.com>
>> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
>> >> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
>> >> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
>> >> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
>> >> > I.e., is it
>> >> >
>> >> >t??re?di?nz
>> >> >
>> >> > or
>> >> >
>> >> >tu?re?di?nz
>> >> >
>> >> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
>> >> >
>> >> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
>> >> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
>> >> > you are emphasizing it.«.
>> >>
>> >> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it-
>> 'to >> radians'.
>> >>
>> > On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
>> > or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
>>
>> When talking about code to other programmers, of course.
>>
>> There is a great variety of pronunciation of these sorts of words. For
>> example, the lib- prefix is used in all sorts of code for libraries
>> (libgcrypt) and sometimes as a postfix (giflib).
>>
>> Some people pronounce this with a long i, as in library, and some
>> with a short i, as in liberty.
>>
>> MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
>> the person.
>>
>> Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
>> 'jif'.

> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".

Yes, I've heard all of those and I also use "car" but I say lib not libe
because consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

--
'I'll see you all tomorrow. If there is one.'
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-02-22 06:59:39 UTC
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On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:

> [ ... ]

> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".

I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
impossible to say.


--
athel
Quinn C
2018-02-22 14:23:10 UTC
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Raw Message
* Athel Cornish-Bowden:

> On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
>
>> [ ... ]
>
>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>
> I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
> use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
> impossible to say.

Why should I care?

--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-02-22 18:40:30 UTC
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On 2018-02-22 14:23:10 +0000, Quinn C said:

> * Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>
>> On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
>>
>>> [ ... ]
>>
>>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>>
>> I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
>> use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
>> impossible to say.
>
> Why should I care?

I've no idea. I didn't raise the question. Why are you being obnoxious
about it?




--
athel
Quinn C
2018-02-22 19:19:32 UTC
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* Athel Cornish-Bowden:

> On 2018-02-22 14:23:10 +0000, Quinn C said:
>
>> * Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>>
>>> On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
>>>
>>>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>>>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>>>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>>>
>>> I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
>>> use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
>>> impossible to say.
>>
>> Why should I care?
>
> I've no idea. I didn't raise the question. Why are you being obnoxious
> about it?

Oh, sorry, I meant: Why should I say "care"?

I actually meant for you to figure that out. The purpose of my remark
is still left as an exercise.

--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.
Richard Tobin
2018-02-22 19:40:26 UTC
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In article <***@mid.individual.net>,
Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>>>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>>>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>>>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".

>>> I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
>>> use. Maybe [kÊr] would be more logical, but many people would find that
>>> impossible to say.

>> Why should I care?

>I've no idea. I didn't raise the question. Why are you being obnoxious
>about it?

Whoosh!

-- Richard
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-02-23 07:08:34 UTC
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On 2018-02-22 19:40:26 +0000, Richard Tobin said:

> In article <***@mid.individual.net>,
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>>>>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>>>>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>>>>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>
>>>> I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
>>>> use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
>>>> impossible to say.
>
>>> Why should I care?
>
>> I've no idea. I didn't raise the question. Why are you being obnoxious
>> about it?
>
> Whoosh!

OK. I thought of the whooshworthy interpretation of Quinn's comment too
late. However, I didn't think of it originally as it hadn't occurred to
me that pronouncing char like care was a reasonable possibility (though
it had been mentioned). Maybe it's different in Scotland: where do you
stand on the Mary/merry/marry question?


--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2018-02-22 15:16:30 UTC
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On 2/21/18 11:59 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
>
>> [ ... ]
>
>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>
> I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
> use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
> impossible to say.

Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?

--
Jerry Friedman
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-02-22 17:58:48 UTC
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On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 2/21/18 11:59 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
> >
> >> [ ... ]
> >
> >> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> >> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> >> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
> >
> > I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
> > use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
> > impossible to say.
>
> Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
>

Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc. Pretty sure nobody pronounces
'char' with an extra syllable. Alternatively, the nickname is achieved
by simply slicing off the ending ... so Barry could be Ba(rr) (a hint of
the 'r' is retained in the pronunciation) ... meaning that 'char' could
well be a nickname for 'charrie'.
Jerry Friedman
2018-02-22 21:00:16 UTC
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Raw Message
On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 10:58:55 AM UTC-7, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On 2/21/18 11:59 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > > On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
> > >
> > >> [ ... ]
> > >
> > >> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> > >> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> > >> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
> > >
> > > I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
> > > use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
> > > impossible to say.
> >
> > Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
> >
>
> Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
> of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc. Pretty sure nobody pronounces
> 'char' with an extra syllable. Alternatively, the nickname is achieved
> by simply slicing off the ending ... so Barry could be Ba(rr) (a hint of
> the 'r' is retained in the pronunciation) ... meaning that 'char' could
> well be a nickname for 'charrie'.

Since nicknames ending in -y are so popular, it's hard to tell whether
the nickname with "z" is based on the original name or nickname. For
instance, if a Brit called me Jez, is that for "Gerald" or "Jerry"?
Could I tell by the spelling, "Gez" or "Jez"?

"Lawrence" seems to provide a clue. As I understand it, "Laz" and
variants, from "Larry", are common. However, there are also Lawrences
with the nickname "Loz", which appears to come straight from "Lawrence".
The most famous, which isn't to say he's a household name, seems to be
the heavy-metal singer Loz Taylor.

So I don't think I was too far off base. (Which is probably not BrE
"outside the crease".)

--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2018-02-22 22:02:22 UTC
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On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 4:00:25 PM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> Since nicknames ending in -y are so popular, it's hard to tell whether
> the nickname with "z" is based on the original name or nickname. For
> instance, if a Brit called me Jez, is that for "Gerald" or "Jerry"?

If you're a Gerald, why aren't you Gerry?

The syntactician Jerry Sadock is a Jerrold.
Jerry Friedman
2018-02-23 21:47:11 UTC
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On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 3:02:31 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 4:00:25 PM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > Since nicknames ending in -y are so popular, it's hard to tell whether
> > the nickname with "z" is based on the original name or nickname. For
> > instance, if a Brit called me Jez, is that for "Gerald" or "Jerry"?
>
> If you're a Gerald, why aren't you Gerry?

Same reason as Jerry Ford, Jerry Springer, and the Viscount St. George.

> The syntactician Jerry Sadock is a Jerrold.

It doesn't seem to work the other way--Jerrolds, Jeremys, etc., never
use the spelling "Gerry". That I know of.

--
Jerry Friedman
Paul Wolff
2018-02-23 22:48:24 UTC
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On Fri, 23 Feb 2018, Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> posted:
>On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 3:02:31 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 4:00:25 PM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>> > Since nicknames ending in -y are so popular, it's hard to tell whether
>> > the nickname with "z" is based on the original name or nickname. For
>> > instance, if a Brit called me Jez, is that for "Gerald" or "Jerry"?
>>
>> If you're a Gerald, why aren't you Gerry?
>
>Same reason as Jerry Ford, Jerry Springer, and the Viscount St. George.
>
>> The syntactician Jerry Sadock is a Jerrold.
>
>It doesn't seem to work the other way--Jerrolds, Jeremys, etc., never
>use the spelling "Gerry". That I know of.
>
I once had a client called Gerard, who was Gerry. Does that help?
--
Paul
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-02-23 00:22:15 UTC
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Raw Message
On Thursday, 22 February 2018 21:00:25 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 10:58:55 AM UTC-7, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> > On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > On 2/21/18 11:59 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > > > On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
> > > >
> > > >> [ ... ]
> > > >
> > > >> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> > > >> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> > > >> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
> > > >
> > > > I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
> > > > use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
> > > > impossible to say.
> > >
> > > Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
> > >
> >
> > Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
> > of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc. Pretty sure nobody pronounces
> > 'char' with an extra syllable. Alternatively, the nickname is achieved
> > by simply slicing off the ending ... so Barry could be Ba(rr) (a hint of
> > the 'r' is retained in the pronunciation) ... meaning that 'char' could
> > well be a nickname for 'charrie'.
>
> Since nicknames ending in -y are so popular, it's hard to tell whether
> the nickname with "z" is based on the original name or nickname. For
> instance, if a Brit called me Jez, is that for "Gerald" or "Jerry"?
> Could I tell by the spelling, "Gez" or "Jez"?
>
> "Lawrence" seems to provide a clue. As I understand it, "Laz" and
> variants, from "Larry", are common. However, there are also Lawrences
> with the nickname "Loz", which appears to come straight from "Lawrence".
> The most famous, which isn't to say he's a household name, seems to be
> the heavy-metal singer Loz Taylor.
>
> So I don't think I was too far off base. (Which is probably not BrE
> "outside the crease".)
>

Can't say I've ever come across Laz. Larry is usually sufficient
abbreviation in that case. It's quite rare for anyone to be registered
as a Jerry so it's more likely that Jez is a Gerald ... unless, of course,
he's a Jeremy.

Anyway, you're safe with "off base". Perfectly normal BrE.
David Kleinecke
2018-02-23 01:08:22 UTC
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Raw Message
On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 4:22:21 PM UTC-8, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> On Thursday, 22 February 2018 21:00:25 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 10:58:55 AM UTC-7, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > > On 2/21/18 11:59 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > > > > On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
> > > > >
> > > > >> [ ... ]
> > > > >
> > > > >> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> > > > >> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> > > > >> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
> > > > >
> > > > > I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
> > > > > use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
> > > > > impossible to say.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
> > > of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc. Pretty sure nobody pronounces
> > > 'char' with an extra syllable. Alternatively, the nickname is achieved
> > > by simply slicing off the ending ... so Barry could be Ba(rr) (a hint of
> > > the 'r' is retained in the pronunciation) ... meaning that 'char' could
> > > well be a nickname for 'charrie'.
> >
> > Since nicknames ending in -y are so popular, it's hard to tell whether
> > the nickname with "z" is based on the original name or nickname. For
> > instance, if a Brit called me Jez, is that for "Gerald" or "Jerry"?
> > Could I tell by the spelling, "Gez" or "Jez"?
> >
> > "Lawrence" seems to provide a clue. As I understand it, "Laz" and
> > variants, from "Larry", are common. However, there are also Lawrences
> > with the nickname "Loz", which appears to come straight from "Lawrence".
> > The most famous, which isn't to say he's a household name, seems to be
> > the heavy-metal singer Loz Taylor.
> >
> > So I don't think I was too far off base. (Which is probably not BrE
> > "outside the crease".)
> >
>
> Can't say I've ever come across Laz. Larry is usually sufficient
> abbreviation in that case. It's quite rare for anyone to be registered
> as a Jerry so it's more likely that Jez is a Gerald ... unless, of course,
> he's a Jeremy.
>
> Anyway, you're safe with "off base". Perfectly normal BrE.

We have Jeromes wandering loose in the US of A.
Jerry Friedman
2018-02-23 21:43:39 UTC
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Raw Message
On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 6:08:29 PM UTC-7, David Kleinecke wrote:
> On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 4:22:21 PM UTC-8, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
...

> > It's quite rare for anyone to be registered
> > as a Jerry so it's more likely that Jez is a Gerald ... unless, of course,
> > he's a Jeremy.
> >
> > Anyway, you're safe with "off base". Perfectly normal BrE.
>
> We have Jeromes wandering loose in the US of A.

And Jeremiahs, though that's about the same as Jeremy.

--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2018-02-23 21:42:38 UTC
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Raw Message
On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 5:22:21 PM UTC-7, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> On Thursday, 22 February 2018 21:00:25 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 10:58:55 AM UTC-7, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:

[char]

> > > > Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
> > > of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc. Pretty sure nobody pronounces
> > > 'char' with an extra syllable. Alternatively, the nickname is achieved
> > > by simply slicing off the ending ... so Barry could be Ba(rr) (a hint of
> > > the 'r' is retained in the pronunciation) ... meaning that 'char' could
> > > well be a nickname for 'charrie'.
> >
> > Since nicknames ending in -y are so popular, it's hard to tell whether
> > the nickname with "z" is based on the original name or nickname. For
> > instance, if a Brit called me Jez, is that for "Gerald" or "Jerry"?
> > Could I tell by the spelling, "Gez" or "Jez"?
> >
> > "Lawrence" seems to provide a clue. As I understand it, "Laz" and
> > variants, from "Larry", are common. However, there are also Lawrences
> > with the nickname "Loz", which appears to come straight from "Lawrence".
> > The most famous, which isn't to say he's a household name, seems to be
> > the heavy-metal singer Loz Taylor.
> >
> > So I don't think I was too far off base. (Which is probably not BrE
> > "outside the crease".)
> >
>
> Can't say I've ever come across Laz.

Obviously the nicknaming practice is less common than I thought.

> Larry is usually sufficient
> abbreviation in that case. It's quite rare for anyone to be registered
> as a Jerry so it's more likely that Jez is a Gerald ... unless, of course,
> he's a Jeremy.
>
> Anyway, you're safe with "off base". Perfectly normal BrE.

Ta.

--
Jerry Friedman
Lewis
2018-02-24 03:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <45bd271c-30a0-4d1f-ac93-***@googlegroups.com> Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 5:22:21 PM UTC-7, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
>> On Thursday, 22 February 2018 21:00:25 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> > On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 10:58:55 AM UTC-7, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> [char]

>> > > > Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
>> > > of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc. Pretty sure nobody pronounces
>> > > 'char' with an extra syllable. Alternatively, the nickname is achieved
>> > > by simply slicing off the ending ... so Barry could be Ba(rr) (a hint of
>> > > the 'r' is retained in the pronunciation) ... meaning that 'char' could
>> > > well be a nickname for 'charrie'.
>> >
>> > Since nicknames ending in -y are so popular, it's hard to tell whether
>> > the nickname with "z" is based on the original name or nickname. For
>> > instance, if a Brit called me Jez, is that for "Gerald" or "Jerry"?
>> > Could I tell by the spelling, "Gez" or "Jez"?
>> >
>> > "Lawrence" seems to provide a clue. As I understand it, "Laz" and
>> > variants, from "Larry", are common. However, there are also Lawrences
>> > with the nickname "Loz", which appears to come straight from "Lawrence".
>> > The most famous, which isn't to say he's a household name, seems to be
>> > the heavy-metal singer Loz Taylor.
>> >
>> > So I don't think I was too far off base. (Which is probably not BrE
>> > "outside the crease".)
>> >
>>
>> Can't say I've ever come across Laz.

> Obviously the nicknaming practice is less common than I thought.

I've not heard Laz either, but I have met one "Ren" who was Laurence (or
maybe Lawrence, I suppose).


--
SUSURRATION: It's a hushed noise. But it hints of plots and secrets and
people turning to one another in surprise. It's the noise, in fact, made
just after the sword is withdrawn from the stone and just before the
cheering starts.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-02-24 12:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 03:34:18 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <45bd271c-30a0-4d1f-ac93-***@googlegroups.com> Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 5:22:21 PM UTC-7, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 22 February 2018 21:00:25 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> > On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 10:58:55 AM UTC-7, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
>>> > > On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> [char]
>
>>> > > > Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
>>> > > of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc. Pretty sure nobody pronounces
>>> > > 'char' with an extra syllable. Alternatively, the nickname is achieved
>>> > > by simply slicing off the ending ... so Barry could be Ba(rr) (a hint of
>>> > > the 'r' is retained in the pronunciation) ... meaning that 'char' could
>>> > > well be a nickname for 'charrie'.
>>> >
>>> > Since nicknames ending in -y are so popular, it's hard to tell whether
>>> > the nickname with "z" is based on the original name or nickname. For
>>> > instance, if a Brit called me Jez, is that for "Gerald" or "Jerry"?
>>> > Could I tell by the spelling, "Gez" or "Jez"?
>>> >
>>> > "Lawrence" seems to provide a clue. As I understand it, "Laz" and
>>> > variants, from "Larry", are common. However, there are also Lawrences
>>> > with the nickname "Loz", which appears to come straight from "Lawrence".
>>> > The most famous, which isn't to say he's a household name, seems to be
>>> > the heavy-metal singer Loz Taylor.
>>> >
>>> > So I don't think I was too far off base. (Which is probably not BrE
>>> > "outside the crease".)
>>> >
>>>
>>> Can't say I've ever come across Laz.
>
>> Obviously the nicknaming practice is less common than I thought.
>
>I've not heard Laz either, but I have met one "Ren" who was Laurence (or
>maybe Lawrence, I suppose).

I think I recall our own Laura (F. Spira) toying with the idea of using
"Lazza" for "Laura". I think the lifetime of that idea was measured in
hours rather than days.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan
2018-02-26 00:57:25 UTC
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On 24/02/18 23:59, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> I think I recall our own Laura (F. Spira) toying with the idea of
> using "Lazza" for "Laura". I think the lifetime of that idea was
> measured in hours rather than days.

At least in Australia, that form of nickname seems to be restricted to
certain groups. You might meet a Gazza who is an apprentice bricklayer,
but you would never under any circumstances find one in a university.
(Unless a new building is under construction, of course.)

Similar divisions appear in some other customs. My newspaper this
morning had a couple of articles on a mullet festival, of all things, in
a nearby small town. (The haircut, not the fish.) The articles and
photos confirmed my feeling that wearing a mullet is done to make a
statement: I'm stupid, and I'm proud of it.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2018-02-26 03:37:34 UTC
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On 2/25/18 5:57 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 24/02/18 23:59, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>> I think I recall our own Laura (F. Spira) toying with the idea of
>> using "Lazza" for "Laura". I think the lifetime of that idea was
>> measured in hours rather than days.
>
> At least in Australia, that form of nickname seems to be restricted to
> certain groups. You might meet a Gazza who is an apprentice bricklayer,
> but you would never under any circumstances find one in a university.
> (Unless a new building is under construction, of course.)

Up here I don't know of such things happening. I don't think there are
many customs you'd find among apprentice bricklayers but not among
university students.

There are racial divisions, though. I think you'd have a hard time
finding a white person named Deshaun or DeShaun. So far.

> Similar divisions appear in some other customs. My newspaper this
> morning had a couple of articles on a mullet festival, of all things, in
> a nearby small town. (The haircut, not the fish.) The articles and
> photos confirmed my feeling that wearing a mullet is done to make a
> statement: I'm stupid, and I'm proud of it.

Racial divisions again. I think it's been a while since I've seen a
mullet on anyone but a Native American, with a ponytail. On someone of
another race, I'd take it to mean defiant unfashionability.

--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2018-02-26 03:49:24 UTC
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On 26/02/18 14:37, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 2/25/18 5:57 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:

>> Similar divisions appear in some other customs. My newspaper this
>> morning had a couple of articles on a mullet festival, of all
>> things, in a nearby small town. (The haircut, not the fish.) The
>> articles and photos confirmed my feeling that wearing a mullet is
>> done to make a statement: I'm stupid, and I'm proud of it.
>
> Racial divisions again. I think it's been a while since I've seen a
> mullet on anyone but a Native American, with a ponytail. On someone
> of another race, I'd take it to mean defiant unfashionability.

When there's a ponytail, I'm not sure I'd call it a mullet; but anyway I
don't think I've seen that case here.

Otherwise, "defiant unfashionability" seems to be a good description of
the cases I see.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Lewis
2018-02-26 07:04:42 UTC
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In message <p6vved$1tt$***@news.albasani.net> Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2/25/18 5:57 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 24/02/18 23:59, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>
>>> I think I recall our own Laura (F. Spira) toying with the idea of
>>> using "Lazza" for "Laura". I think the lifetime of that idea was
>>> measured in hours rather than days.
>>
>> At least in Australia, that form of nickname seems to be restricted to
>> certain groups. You might meet a Gazza who is an apprentice bricklayer,
>> but you would never under any circumstances find one in a university.
>> (Unless a new building is under construction, of course.)

> Up here I don't know of such things happening. I don't think there are
> many customs you'd find among apprentice bricklayers but not among
> university students.

> There are racial divisions, though. I think you'd have a hard time
> finding a white person named Deshaun or DeShaun. So far.

>> Similar divisions appear in some other customs. My newspaper this
>> morning had a couple of articles on a mullet festival, of all things, in
>> a nearby small town. (The haircut, not the fish.) The articles and
>> photos confirmed my feeling that wearing a mullet is done to make a
>> statement: I'm stupid, and I'm proud of it.

> Racial divisions again. I think it's been a while since I've seen a
> mullet on anyone but a Native American, with a ponytail. On someone of
> another race, I'd take it to mean defiant unfashionability.

A person with a pony tail is generally not a person with a mullet. A
mullet has long hair on top, longer hair in the back, and shorter hair
on the sides.

<http://www.teamjimmyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/classic-mullet-man.jpg>

People with pony tail generally have long hair all over that is gathered
in the back.

--
The trouble with witches is that they'll never run away from things they
really hate. And the trouble with small furry animals in a corner is
that, just occasionally, one of them's a mongoose. --Witches Abroad
Quinn C
2018-02-26 20:02:00 UTC
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* Lewis:

> In message <p6vved$1tt$***@news.albasani.net> Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Racial divisions again. I think it's been a while since I've seen a
>> mullet on anyone but a Native American, with a ponytail. On someone of
>> another race, I'd take it to mean defiant unfashionability.
>
> A person with a pony tail is generally not a person with a mullet. A
> mullet has long hair on top, longer hair in the back, and shorter hair
> on the sides.
>
> <http://www.teamjimmyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/classic-mullet-man.jpg>
>
> People with pony tail generally have long hair all over that is gathered
> in the back.

<http://coolmenshair.com/2009/10/popular-types-of-mullet-hairstyles.html>

It gives 2 types: classic and with ponytail.

Even in non-mullet cases, a ponytail may not include all of the hair,
either because it's too short:
<http://www.short-haircut.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Straight-Ponytail-For-Dark-Short-Hair.jpg>

or deliberately, to get a more relaxed look:
<https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ipIcGirgMDc/UZ3SZwTJ1yI/AAAAAAAACoU/c_8zXdg_aIw/s1600/Hilary+Duff+Textured+Ponytail+Hairstyle.jpg>

--
... their average size remains so much smaller; so that the sum
total of food converted into thought by women can never equal
[that of] men. It follows therefore, that men will always think
more than women. -- M.A. Hardaker in Popular Science (1881)
Quinn C
2018-02-26 19:56:11 UTC
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* Jerry Friedman:

> On 2/25/18 5:57 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> Similar divisions appear in some other customs. My newspaper this
>> morning had a couple of articles on a mullet festival, of all things, in
>> a nearby small town. (The haircut, not the fish.) The articles and
>> photos confirmed my feeling that wearing a mullet is done to make a
>> statement: I'm stupid, and I'm proud of it.
>
> Racial divisions again. I think it's been a while since I've seen a
> mullet on anyone but a Native American, with a ponytail. On someone of
> another race, I'd take it to mean defiant unfashionability.

The people living in the surroundings of Montreal are sometimes
referred to as mullet crowd - in my understanding, that indicates all
of these things: behind in fashion, uneducated, unmannered and proud of
it.

The style might have been particularly popular in Quebec, given the
number of nicknames quoted here:
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuque_longue#Termes_couvrant_la_notion_(avec_marques_d'usage)>

--
The need of a personal pronoun of the singular number and common
gender is so desperate, urgent, imperative, that ... it should long
since have grown on our speech -- The Atlantic Monthly (1878)
b***@aol.com
2018-02-23 15:38:31 UTC
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Le jeudi 22 février 2018 18:58:55 UTC+1, Madrigal Gurneyhalt a écrit :
> On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On 2/21/18 11:59 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > > On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
> > >
> > >> [ ... ]
> > >
> > >> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> > >> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> > >> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
> > >
> > > I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
> > > use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
> > > impossible to say.

But that's the way many (most?) people say it in "character" -- that would
surely be counterintuitive, but far from impossible.

> >
> > Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
> >
>
> Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
> of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc.

Jeez, Jerry should have known this!

> Pretty sure nobody pronounces
> 'char' with an extra syllable. Alternatively, the nickname is achieved
> by simply slicing off the ending ... so Barry could be Ba(rr) (a hint of
> the 'r' is retained in the pronunciation) ... meaning that 'char' could
> well be a nickname for 'charrie'.
Quinn C
2018-02-23 22:58:27 UTC
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Raw Message
* Madrigal Gurneyhalt:

> On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 2/21/18 11:59 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
>>>
>>>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>>>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>>>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>>>
>>> I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
>>> use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
>>> impossible to say.
>>
>> Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
>
> Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
> of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc.

Stay calm and caz on!

--
We say, 'If any lady or gentleman shall buy this article _____ shall
have it for five dollars.' The blank may be filled with he, she, it,
or they; or in any other manner; and yet the form of the expression
will be too vulgar to be uttered. -- Wkly Jrnl of Commerce (1839)
J. J. Lodder
2018-02-24 09:54:39 UTC
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Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> * Madrigal Gurneyhalt:
>
> > On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On 2/21/18 11:59 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>> On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
> >>>
> >>>> [ ... ]
> >>>
> >>>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
> >>>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
> >>>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
> >>>
> >>> I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
> >>> use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
> >>> impossible to say.
> >>
> >> Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
> >
> > Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
> > of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc.
>
> Stay calm and caz on!

Or the imaginnary committee will cosh you!

Jan
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-02-24 13:26:59 UTC
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On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:58:48 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
<***@googlemail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, 22 February 2018 15:16:33 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 2/21/18 11:59 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> > On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
>> >
>> >> [ ... ]
>> >
>> >> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>> >> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>> >> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>> >
>> > I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
>> > use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
>> > impossible to say.
>>
>> Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?
>>
>
>Dem's not British nicknaming rules! The 'z' replaces the last syllable
>of names ending -rry, -ry, -rie etc. Pretty sure nobody pronounces
>'char' with an extra syllable. Alternatively, the nickname is achieved
>by simply slicing off the ending ... so Barry could be Ba(rr) (a hint of
>the 'r' is retained in the pronunciation) ... meaning that 'char' could
>well be a nickname for 'charrie'.

The -z abbreviation to form a nickname is a bit wider than that.
Sometimes it becomes -zza.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-zza#English

Two nicknames for Caroline are Caz and Cazza.

Jeremy is sometimes Jezza.

It it also used with names without an "-r". Paul Gascoigne the former
English soccer player is Gazza.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gazza

This less-than-serious "news report" from 6 years ago says:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/are-chezza-and-hazza-really-made-for-each-other-7615416.html

Are Chezza and Hazza really made for each other?

Cheryl Cole has told Marie Claire magazine that she'd love to marry
Prince Harry

There is then an "interview" of Cheryl and Harry by the journalist Huw
Edwards.

What seems to be an actual fact is in the caption of a photograph
"Cheryl Cole told 'Marie Claire' that she married Prince Harry in a
dream".

Just part of the "interview" with Huw Edwards:

HE: Could you be more specific about what appealed to you?

Harry: I think it was the tats. She's got this rarely brilliant
barbed wire tattoo on her arse. Reminds me of Digby, this chap at
school...

Cheryl: (tearfully) Is that the ernlee thing ye can seeay aboot us?
Whorraboot mi voyz? Mi stunnin' bewty? Mi fablas knockaz?

Harry: Yers. A rarely lovely girl, as I say. And seriously, goes
like a rattlesnake in a tumble-dryer.

Cheryl has a Geordie accent.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ken Blake
2018-02-24 16:23:04 UTC
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On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:26:59 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>The -z abbreviation to form a nickname is a bit wider than that.
>Sometimes it becomes -zza.
>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-zza#English
>
>Two nicknames for Caroline are Caz and Cazza.
>
>Jeremy is sometimes Jezza.



I guess that's just BrE. I've never seen nor heard any of these, or
any other -z abbreviations, in the USA.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-02-24 17:39:22 UTC
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Raw Message
On Saturday, 24 February 2018 16:23:13 UTC, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:26:59 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
> <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
> >The -z abbreviation to form a nickname is a bit wider than that.
> >Sometimes it becomes -zza.
> >https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-zza#English
> >
> >Two nicknames for Caroline are Caz and Cazza.
> >
> >Jeremy is sometimes Jezza.
>
>
>
> I guess that's just BrE. I've never seen nor heard any of these, or
> any other -z abbreviations, in the USA.

It's definitely a feature of BrE today but I have a suspicion that we
inherited it from OzE.
b***@aol.com
2018-02-24 17:59:24 UTC
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Le samedi 24 février 2018 18:39:29 UTC+1, Madrigal Gurneyhalt a écrit :
> On Saturday, 24 February 2018 16:23:13 UTC, Ken Blake wrote:
> > On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:26:59 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
> > <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >
> > >The -z abbreviation to form a nickname is a bit wider than that.
> > >Sometimes it becomes -zza.
> > >https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-zza#English
> > >
> > >Two nicknames for Caroline are Caz and Cazza.
> > >
> > >Jeremy is sometimes Jezza.
> >
> >
> >
> > I guess that's just BrE. I've never seen nor heard any of these, or
> > any other -z abbreviations, in the USA.
>
> It's definitely a feature of BrE today but I have a suspicion that we
> inherited it from OzE.

Could that very particularism originally have earned Australia and the
Australians the informal names of Oz and Aussies?
Lewis
2018-02-24 21:35:59 UTC
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Raw Message
In message <418e930f-78d7-4165-bbf1-***@googlegroups.com> ***@aol.com <***@aol.com> wrote:
> Le samedi 24 février 2018 18:39:29 UTC+1, Madrigal Gurneyhalt a écrit :
>> On Saturday, 24 February 2018 16:23:13 UTC, Ken Blake wrote:
>> > On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:26:59 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
>> > <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > >The -z abbreviation to form a nickname is a bit wider than that.
>> > >Sometimes it becomes -zza.
>> > >https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-zza#English
>> > >
>> > >Two nicknames for Caroline are Caz and Cazza.
>> > >
>> > >Jeremy is sometimes Jezza.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I guess that's just BrE. I've never seen nor heard any of these, or
>> > any other -z abbreviations, in the USA.
>>
>> It's definitely a feature of BrE today but I have a suspicion that we
>> inherited it from OzE.

> Could that very particularism originally have earned Australia and the
> Australians the informal names of Oz and Aussies?

I think it's more likely that the was they say "Aussie" sounds like
"Ozzy" and that it's a long way over the rainbow to get there.

--
I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a
career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy
anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or
processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a
career, I don't want to do that.
b***@aol.com
2018-02-25 17:06:47 UTC
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Raw Message
Le samedi 24 février 2018 22:36:02 UTC+1, Lewis a écrit :
> In message <418e930f-78d7-4165-bbf1-***@googlegroups.com> ***@aol.com <***@aol.com> wrote:
> > Le samedi 24 février 2018 18:39:29 UTC+1, Madrigal Gurneyhalt a écrit :
> >> On Saturday, 24 February 2018 16:23:13 UTC, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> > On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:26:59 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
> >> > <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >The -z abbreviation to form a nickname is a bit wider than that.
> >> > >Sometimes it becomes -zza.
> >> > >https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-zza#English
> >> > >
> >> > >Two nicknames for Caroline are Caz and Cazza.
> >> > >
> >> > >Jeremy is sometimes Jezza.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I guess that's just BrE. I've never seen nor heard any of these, or
> >> > any other -z abbreviations, in the USA.
> >>
> >> It's definitely a feature of BrE today but I have a suspicion that we
> >> inherited it from OzE.
>
> > Could that very particularism originally have earned Australia and the
> > Australians the informal names of Oz and Aussies?
>
> I think it's more likely that the was they say "Aussie" sounds like
> "Ozzy" and that it's a long way over the rainbow to get there.

The local pronunciation is [ˈɒzɪ] and [ɒz], so it seems to go along with
the above -z abbreviation practice.

>
> --
> I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a
> career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy
> anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or
> processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a
> career, I don't want to do that.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-02-24 22:08:42 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:59:24 -0800 (PST), ***@aol.com wrote:

>Le samedi 24 février 2018 18:39:29 UTC+1, Madrigal Gurneyhalt a écrit :
>> On Saturday, 24 February 2018 16:23:13 UTC, Ken Blake wrote:
>> > On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:26:59 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
>> > <***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > >The -z abbreviation to form a nickname is a bit wider than that.
>> > >Sometimes it becomes -zza.
>> > >https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-zza#English
>> > >
>> > >Two nicknames for Caroline are Caz and Cazza.
>> > >
>> > >Jeremy is sometimes Jezza.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I guess that's just BrE. I've never seen nor heard any of these, or
>> > any other -z abbreviations, in the USA.
>>
>> It's definitely a feature of BrE today but I have a suspicion that we
>> inherited it from OzE.
>
>Could that very particularism originally have earned Australia and the
>Australians the informal names of Oz and Aussies?

The informal "Aussie" was originally used in Australia and New Zealand.
The earliest quotation in the OED is:

a1910 W. Goldstone Man from Kaiveroo in A. E. Woodhouse N.Z. Farm
& Station Verse (1950) 49 We'd a bunch of Aussie shearers, and
they come from New South Wales.

As a noun:

An Australian; (originally) spec. an Australian soldier in the First
World War (1914–18). Later also Sport (chiefly in pl.): a member of
an Australian national team.
1915 Farmer & Settler (New S. Wales) 20 July 2/7 (headline)
‘Aussies’ in hospital.
1917 NZ at Front Gloss p. xiii Aussie, or Ossie.—The ‘Tommy’ of
Australia.
1919 J. B. Sanborn 131st U.S. Infantry in World War x. 209
Shortly following this the Australian stretcher bearers carried
back an Aussie, who had been wounded by a grenade while on patrol.
....

And:

Ozzie, n. and adj.

Etymology: Variant of Aussie n. With the form Ozzie compare Oz n.2
and adj.
colloq. (orig. Austral.).
A. n.
An Australian.
1918 Truth (Sydney) 28 July 6/5 We consider the term Aussie or
Ossie as evolved is a properly picturesque and delightfully
descriptive designation of the boys who have gone forth from
Australia.
....


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Richard Tobin
2018-02-24 19:39:16 UTC
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In article <8e8a73b0-bcb1-43d1-97a8-***@googlegroups.com>,
Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:

>> >Two nicknames for Caroline are Caz and Cazza.
>> >
>> >Jeremy is sometimes Jezza.

>> I guess that's just BrE. I've never seen nor heard any of these, or
>> any other -z abbreviations, in the USA.

>It's definitely a feature of BrE today but I have a suspicion that we
>inherited it from OzE.

That seems likely. The first example of it I heard of it was
Barry "Bazza" McKenzie.

-- Richard
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-02-22 20:17:21 UTC
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On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:16:30 -0700, Jerry Friedman
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2/21/18 11:59 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
>>
>>> [ ... ]
>>
>>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>>
>> I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
>> use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
>> impossible to say.
>
>Does anyone use British nicknaming rules and pronounce it "caz"?

Not as far as I know, Jez.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Will Parsons
2018-02-24 19:11:17 UTC
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Raw Message
On Thursday, 22 Feb 2018 1:59 AM -0500, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-02-21 18:30:15 +0000, Default User said:
>
>> [ ... ]
>
>> The built-in type for character data in C and derived languages is
>> "Char". I have heard it pronounced, "care", "char" (as in charcoal),
>> and probably least logical but the one I use, "car".
>
> I regard that as the _most_ logical, possibly because it's the one I
> use. Maybe [kær] would be more logical, but many people would find that
> impossible to say.

Right. [-ær] doesn't naturally occur at the end of English words;
[ɑː(r)] takes its place: bat vs bar, pad vs par, tap vs tar, &c (and
of course cab vs car). So, [kɑː(r)] is, I think, the natural and logical
pronunciation. "Char" as in "charcoal", can be justified as a pure
spelling pronunciation. Pronouncing it "care" only makes sense if you
pronounce the first syllable of "character" as "care", which I
certainly don't nor do people around me say it that way.

--
Will
John Varela
2018-02-21 18:38:46 UTC
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Raw Message
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 06:52:32 UTC, Lewis
<***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <25a73eb0-2f36-40bb-a7dd-***@googlegroups.com> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
> >> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
> >> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
> >> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
> >> > I.e., is it
> >> >
> >> >t??re?di?nz
> >> >
> >> > or
> >> >
> >> >tu?re?di?nz
> >> >
> >> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
> >> >
> >> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
> >> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
> >> > you are emphasizing it.«.
> >>
> >> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
> >> radians'.
> >>
> > On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
> > or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
>
> When talking about code to other programmers, of course.
>
> There is a great variety of pronunciation of these sorts of words. For
> example, the lib- prefix is used in all sorts of code for libraries
> (libgcrypt) and sometimes as a postfix (giflib).
>
> Some people pronounce this with a long i, as in library, and some with a
> short i, as in liberty.
>
> MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
> the person.
>
> Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
> 'jif'.

"Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs."

--
John Varela
b***@aol.com
2018-02-21 19:52:39 UTC
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Raw Message
Le mercredi 21 février 2018 07:52:34 UTC+1, Lewis a écrit :
> In message <25a73eb0-2f36-40bb-a7dd-***@googlegroups.com> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
> >> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
> >> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
> >> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
> >> > I.e., is it
> >> >
> >> >t??re?di?nz
> >> >
> >> > or
> >> >
> >> >tu?re?di?nz
> >> >
> >> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
> >> >
> >> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
> >> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
> >> > you are emphasizing it.«.
> >>
> >> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
> >> radians'.
> >>
> > On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
> > or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
>
> When talking about code to other programmers, of course.
>
> There is a great variety of pronunciation of these sorts of words. For
> example, the lib- prefix is used in all sorts of code for libraries
> (libgcrypt) and sometimes as a postfix (giflib).
>
> Some people pronounce this with a long i, as in library, and some with a
> short i, as in liberty.

I.e. ad-lib, so to say.

>
> MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
> the person.
>
> Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
> 'jif'.
>
> --
> I have seen the truth and it makes no sense.
Andreas Karrer
2018-02-21 20:16:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
* Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>:
> In message <25a73eb0-2f36-40bb-a7dd-***@googlegroups.com> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
>>> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
>>> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
>>> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
>>> > I.e., is it
>>> >
>>> >t??re?di?nz
>>> >
>>> > or
>>> >
>>> >tu?re?di?nz
>>> >
>>> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
>>> >
>>> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
>>> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
>>> > you are emphasizing it.«.
>>>
>>> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
>>> radians'.
>>>
>> On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
>> or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
>
> When talking about code to other programmers, of course.
>
> There is a great variety of pronunciation of these sorts of words. For
> example, the lib- prefix is used in all sorts of code for libraries
> (libgcrypt) and sometimes as a postfix (giflib).
>
> Some people pronounce this with a long i, as in library, and some with a
> short i, as in liberty.

In 30 years of using Unix, I've never heard anyone pronouncing /lib or
libc (or /bin) with a long i.

> MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
> the person.

It used to be that the "sequel" pronunciation indicated an IBM
background, but not anymore. My impression is that "sequel" is on the
decline.

> Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
> 'jif'.

"Gillian" is usually pronounced "Jillian", but Gillian Welch
insists on g as in gill or McGill.

- Andi
Richard Tobin
2018-02-21 20:19:45 UTC
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Raw Message
In article <slrnp8rks9.1fiv.ak-***@chimborazo.ee.ethz.ch>,
Andreas Karrer <ak-***@gmx.ch> wrote:

>"Gillian" is usually pronounced "Jillian", but Gillian Welch
>insists on g as in gill or McGill.

Not to be confused with g as in gill (= 5 fluid ounces).

-- Richard
Lewis
2018-02-22 04:56:03 UTC
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Raw Message
In message <p6kk91$286t$***@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk> Richard Tobin <***@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <slrnp8rks9.1fiv.ak-***@chimborazo.ee.ethz.ch>,
> Andreas Karrer <ak-***@gmx.ch> wrote:

>>"Gillian" is usually pronounced "Jillian", but Gillian Welch
>>insists on g as in gill or McGill.

> Not to be confused with g as in gill (= 5 fluid ounces).

Oh, so that's why Jack broke his crown?

--
"I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's nothing trivial."
Irvin S. Cobb
Ken Blake
2018-02-21 23:10:42 UTC
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Raw Message
On 21 Feb 2018 20:16:09 GMT, Andreas Karrer <ak-***@gmx.ch> wrote:

>* Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>:
>> In message <25a73eb0-2f36-40bb-a7dd-***@googlegroups.com> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
>>>> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
>>>> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
>>>> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
>>>> > I.e., is it
>>>> >
>>>> >t??re?di?nz
>>>> >
>>>> > or
>>>> >
>>>> >tu?re?di?nz
>>>> >
>>>> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
>>>> >
>>>> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
>>>> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
>>>> > you are emphasizing it.«.
>>>>
>>>> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
>>>> radians'.
>>>>
>>> On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
>>> or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
>>
>> When talking about code to other programmers, of course.
>>
>> There is a great variety of pronunciation of these sorts of words. For
>> example, the lib- prefix is used in all sorts of code for libraries
>> (libgcrypt) and sometimes as a postfix (giflib).
>>
>> Some people pronounce this with a long i, as in library, and some with a
>> short i, as in liberty.
>
>In 30 years of using Unix, I've never heard anyone pronouncing /lib or
>libc (or /bin) with a long i.
>
>> MySQL is pronounced either "My es que el" or "My sequel", depending on
>> the person.
>
>It used to be that the "sequel" pronunciation indicated an IBM
>background, but not anymore. My impression is that "sequel" is on the
>decline.
>
>> Or, of course, the most contention one, some people pronounce gif as
>> 'jif'.
>
>"Gillian" is usually pronounced "Jillian", but Gillian Welch
>insists on g as in gill or McGill.


And then there's "gigabyte. Some people say ghigabyte, others say
jigabyte.
Lewis
2018-02-22 04:55:13 UTC
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Raw Message
In message <slrnp8rks9.1fiv.ak-***@chimborazo.ee.ethz.ch> Andreas Karrer <ak-***@gmx.ch> wrote:
> * Lewis <***@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>:
>> In message <25a73eb0-2f36-40bb-a7dd-***@googlegroups.com> Madrigal Gurneyhalt <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
>>>> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
>>>> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
>>>> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
>>>> > I.e., is it
>>>> >
>>>> >t??re?di?nz
>>>> >
>>>> > or
>>>> >
>>>> >tu?re?di?nz
>>>> >
>>>> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
>>>> >
>>>> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
>>>> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
>>>> > you are emphasizing it.«.
>>>>
>>>> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
>>>> radians'.
>>>>
>>> On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
>>> or any other computer code 'words' come to that?
>>
>> When talking about code to other programmers, of course.
>>
>> There is a great variety of pronunciation of these sorts of words. For
>> example, the lib- prefix is used in all sorts of code for libraries
>> (libgcrypt) and sometimes as a postfix (giflib).
>>
>> Some people pronounce this with a long i, as in library, and some with a
>> short i, as in liberty.

> In 30 years of using Unix, I've never heard anyone pronouncing /lib or
> libc (or /bin) with a long i.

I have. It bugs the crap out of me too (for no justifiable reason). One
easily checked example is Steve Gibson on the Security Now podcast; he
says libe.

--
"...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely in one pretty and well-preserved piece, but to slide across the
finish line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, and
shouting GERONIMO!!!" -- Bill McKenna
Jack
2018-02-21 19:53:26 UTC
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Raw Message
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 16:26:50 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
<***@googlemail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 00:11:06 UTC, J OFL wrote:
>> On 20 Feb 2018 23:16:13 GMT, ***@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>> wrote:
>>
>> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
>> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
>> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
>> > I.e., is it
>> >
>> >t??re?di?nz
>> >
>> > or
>> >
>> >tu?re?di?nz
>> >
>> > ? In one dictionary I found this interesting remark:
>> >
>> > »Usually pronounced (t?) before a consonant and
>> > (tu) before a vowel, but pronounced (tu?) when
>> > you are emphasizing it.«.
>>
>> It's for conversion to radians? That's how I would pronounce it- 'to
>> radians'.
>>
>On what occasion does anyone ever have need to pronounce it
>or any other computer code 'words' come to that?

When trying to remember a line to retype it with corrections, if your
memory works a certain way. Not pronounce out loud, but subvocally.

--
John
Glenn Knickerbocker
2018-02-21 01:28:56 UTC
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Raw Message
On 2/20/2018 6:16 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
> called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
> name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?

No, in fact, I'd give it the primary stress: ˈtuˌreɪdiənz

¬R
Jerry Friedman
2018-02-21 23:30:21 UTC
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Raw Message
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 6:28:58 PM UTC-7, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
> On 2/20/2018 6:16 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
> > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
> > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
>
> No, in fact, I'd give it the primary stress: ˈtuˌreɪdiənz

What if the reverse method is called toDegrees?

--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2018-02-22 00:50:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 22/02/18 10:30, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 6:28:58 PM UTC-7, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
>> On 2/20/2018 6:16 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
>>> called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
>>> name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
>>
>> No, in fact, I'd give it the primary stress: ˈtuˌreɪdiənz
>
> What if the reverse method is called toDegrees?

I pronounce that the same as twoDegrees.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Snidely
2018-02-22 08:15:28 UTC
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Raw Message
Peter Moylan submitted this gripping article, maybe on Wednesday:
> On 22/02/18 10:30, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 6:28:58 PM UTC-7, Glenn Knickerbocker
>> wrote:
>>> On 2/20/2018 6:16 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>> There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
>>>> called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
>>>> name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
>>>
>>> No, in fact, I'd give it the primary stress: ˈtuˌreɪdiənz
>>
>> What if the reverse method is called toDegrees?
>
> I pronounce that the same as twoDegrees.

OT: Peter -- do you know where in Australia this "on location" was?
Is the train still doing tourist trips?

<URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U02chTrnU6w>

/dps "don't get too sleepy"

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain
Peter Moylan
2018-02-23 02:47:52 UTC
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Raw Message
On 22/02/18 19:15, Snidely wrote:

> OT: Peter -- do you know where in Australia this "on location" was?
> Is the train still doing tourist trips?
>
> <URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U02chTrnU6w>

My first guess was the Mornington Peninsula, but that's just because
I've just come back from there. The limited views of the background then
led me to suspect Puffing Billy, a tourist attraction in the Dandenong
Ranges near Melbourne. IIRC I've ridden on it twice.

http://puffingbilly.com.au/en/

Another U-tube clip confirms this guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1UXSdFlVOs

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Snidely
2018-02-23 07:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Peter Moylan presented the following explanation :
> On 22/02/18 19:15, Snidely wrote:
>
>> OT: Peter -- do you know where in Australia this "on location" was?
>> Is the train still doing tourist trips?
>>
>> <URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U02chTrnU6w>
>
> My first guess was the Mornington Peninsula, but that's just because
> I've just come back from there. The limited views of the background then
> led me to suspect Puffing Billy, a tourist attraction in the Dandenong
> Ranges near Melbourne. IIRC I've ridden on it twice.
>
> http://puffingbilly.com.au/en/
>
> Another U-tube clip confirms this guess.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1UXSdFlVOs

Thank you, kind sir.

/dps

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean
J. J. Lodder
2018-02-22 13:50:03 UTC
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Raw Message
Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 6:28:58 PM UTC-7, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
> > On 2/20/2018 6:16 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > > There is a Java method (i.e., a kind of a computer program)
> > > called "toRadians". Now, I wonder: when one pronounces the
> > > name of this method, would the »o« usually be "reduced"?
> >
> > No, in fact, I'd give it the primary stress: ?tu?re?di?nz
>
> What if the reverse method is called toDegrees?

'Degree' is nothing but a convenional notation for * Pi/180 (Wolfram)
No special routine is needed,

Jan
Glenn Knickerbocker
2018-03-05 17:57:36 UTC
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Raw Message
On 2/21/2018 6:30 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> What if the reverse method is called toDegrees?

You mean rather than, say, fromRadians? I'd still put the stress on
"to." To my thinking, it's more like a verb than a preposition here:
I "to" the object into radians, degrees, rotations, slope, whatever.

¬R
Snidely
2018-03-06 08:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Glenn Knickerbocker blurted out:
> On 2/21/2018 6:30 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> What if the reverse method is called toDegrees?
>
> You mean rather than, say, fromRadians? I'd still put the stress on
> "to." To my thinking, it's more like a verb than a preposition here:
> I "to" the object into radians, degrees, rotations, slope, whatever.

[HenryH beware! Topic drift!]
"fromRadians" would be odd, according to my survey. However, there are
precedents for using both starting and ending in naming a conversion,
as in C's atol (ascii to long) and itoa (integer to ascii).

/dps "ok, fine ... C's /standard library functions/"

--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.
Snidely
2018-03-06 08:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Remember Tuesday, when Snidely asked plainitively:
> Glenn Knickerbocker blurted out:
>> On 2/21/2018 6:30 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> What if the reverse method is called toDegrees?
>>
>> You mean rather than, say, fromRadians? I'd still put the stress on
>> "to." To my thinking, it's more like a verb than a preposition here:
>> I "to" the object into radians, degrees, rotations, slope, whatever.
>
> [HenryH beware! Topic drift!]
> "fromRadians" would be odd, according to my survey. However, there are
> precedents for using both starting and ending in naming a conversion, as in
> C's atol (ascii to long) and itoa (integer to ascii).
>
> /dps "ok, fine ... C's /standard library functions/"

hmm.

/dps "ok, fine ... C's *standard library functions*"

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013
Adam Funk
2018-03-06 14:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-06, Snidely wrote:

> Remember Tuesday, when Snidely asked plainitively:
>> Glenn Knickerbocker blurted out:
>>> On 2/21/2018 6:30 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> What if the reverse method is called toDegrees?
>>>
>>> You mean rather than, say, fromRadians? I'd still put the stress on
>>> "to." To my thinking, it's more like a verb than a preposition here:
>>> I "to" the object into radians, degrees, rotations, slope, whatever.
>>
>> [HenryH beware! Topic drift!]
>> "fromRadians" would be odd, according to my survey. However, there are
>> precedents for using both starting and ending in naming a conversion, as in
>> C's atol (ascii to long) and itoa (integer to ascii).
>>
>> /dps "ok, fine ... C's /standard library functions/"
>
> hmm.
>
> /dps "ok, fine ... C's *standard library functions*"

ITYM

/* dps "ok, fine ... C's standard library functions" */


--
In general, I find that calligraphers are just about the nicest people
I've ever met. --- Donald Knuth
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