A dead linguist

[b***@shaw.ca]

I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.

I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.

I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.

bill

[Ross]

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.
bill

Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ross

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.
bill

Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there? C&H were of course
right about that, especially when you read the entire quotation (as you can
in my book, along with the amplification some pages later). Setting aside
all the "generative phonology" notational rigmarole, it's simply a recognition
that morphophonemic spelling is advantageous for a language like English that
has lots of morphophonemic processes going on.

[Ross]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.
bill

Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

C&H were of course

Post by Peter T. Daniels
right about that, especially when you read the entire quotation (as you can
in my book, along with the amplification some pages later). Setting aside
all the "generative phonology" notational rigmarole, it's simply a recognition
that morphophonemic spelling is advantageous for a language like English that
has lots of morphophonemic processes going on.

....in the polysyllabic Greco-Latin vocabulary to which they devoted
so much attention. That is not what most people are thinking of when
they say that English spelling is a mess.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.
bill

Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.
C&H were of course

Post by Peter T. Daniels
right about that, especially when you read the entire quotation (as you can
in my book, along with the amplification some pages later). Setting aside
all the "generative phonology" notational rigmarole, it's simply a recognition
that morphophonemic spelling is advantageous for a language like English that
has lots of morphophonemic processes going on.

....in the polysyllabic Greco-Latin vocabulary to which they devoted
so much attention. That is not what most people are thinking of when
they say that English spelling is a mess.

For a few months I've been getting the email list of the English Spelling
Society (which used to be the Simplified Spelling Society), because I had
to sign up for it in order to view its archive, which I found cited somewhere
for a claim that in 1940 G B Shaw had included "ghoti" in his Christmas
post card (was that a thing?), which Ben Zimmer hadn't known about when
he studied the question. (It turned out to be a 2004 reminiscence that
as a young boy, the poster had received such a card after writing a fan
letter to GBS, but he no longer had the card; Shaw's writings are so
well documented that if he had sent out such a post card for the holidays,
copies would have survived and been published.)

The only thing they can see is that there should be a one-to-one correspondence
between letter and phoneme. (One or two of them permit digraphs.) They
refuse to acknowledge the importance of maintaining consistency in the
spelling of a morpheme as its vowels change with stress or as its
consonants change with affixation. Unlike Shaw, they never specify which
dialect is to be the standard for the phoneticization. (Shaw specified
the speech of George V. The notion of a monarchist socialist is amusing.)

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
For a few months I've been getting the email list of the English Spelling
Society (which used to be the Simplified Spelling Society), because I had
to sign up for it in order to view its archive, which I found cited somewhere
for a claim that in 1940 G B Shaw had included "ghoti" in his Christmas
post card (was that a thing?)

Of course it was. There are websites that offer 1940s Christmas
postcards for sale to collectors.

https://www.etsy.com/market/1940s_christmas_card

One source says the holiday postcard was the brainchild of Thomas
Shorrock - Leith, Scotland - when started producing such cards in the
1840s. Sir Henry Cole, later the first director of London's Victoria
and Albert Museum, sent out 1,000 holiday cards saying "Merry
Christmas and a Happy New Year to You" in 1843.

The custom is still in practice, and hundreds of thousands of
Christmas postcards - now often with a family photograph used instead
of an artist's work - are sent out every year. Much simpler to attach
a stamp, address, and mail than to stuff a card into an envelope.
$22.89 for 500 at GotPrint.com. Room on the address side for a short
personalization.

obAUE: Surprising, to me, is the wording on Cole's card. Not "Happy
Christmas...", but "Merry Christmas...".

[Janet]

In article <***@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
For a few months I've been getting the email list of the English Spelling
Society (which used to be the Simplified Spelling Society), because I had
to sign up for it in order to view its archive, which I found cited somewhere
for a claim that in 1940 G B Shaw had included "ghoti" in his Christmas
post card (was that a thing?)

Of course it was. There are websites that offer 1940s Christmas
postcards for sale to collectors.
https://www.etsy.com/market/1940s_christmas_card
One source says the holiday postcard was the brainchild of Thomas
Shorrock - Leith, Scotland - when started producing such cards in the
1840s. Sir Henry Cole, later the first director of London's Victoria
and Albert Museum, sent out 1,000 holiday cards saying "Merry
Christmas and a Happy New Year to You" in 1843.
The custom is still in practice, and hundreds of thousands of
Christmas postcards - now often with a family photograph used instead
of an artist's work - are sent out every year. Much simpler to attach
a stamp, address, and mail than to stuff a card into an envelope.
$22.89 for 500 at GotPrint.com. Room on the address side for a short
personalization.
obAUE: Surprising, to me, is the wording on Cole's card. Not "Happy
Christmas...", but "Merry Christmas...".

" Merry Christmas" (not happy) is a standard greeting on UK Xmas cards.

Happy is used on cards with birthday, anniversary and Easter greetings

Janet

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Post by Janet
@gmail.com says...

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
For a few months I've been getting the email list of the English
Spelling Society (which used to be the Simplified Spelling Society),
because I had to sign up for it in order to view its archive, which
I found cited somewhere for a claim that in 1940 G B Shaw had
included "ghoti" in his Christmas post card (was that a thing?)

Of course it was. There are websites that offer 1940s Christmas
postcards for sale to collectors.
https://www.etsy.com/market/1940s_christmas_card
One source says the holiday postcard was the brainchild of Thomas
Shorrock - Leith, Scotland - when started producing such cards in the
1840s. Sir Henry Cole, later the first director of London's Victoria
and Albert Museum, sent out 1,000 holiday cards saying "Merry
Christmas and a Happy New Year to You" in 1843.
The custom is still in practice, and hundreds of thousands of
Christmas postcards - now often with a family photograph used instead
of an artist's work - are sent out every year. Much simpler to
attach a stamp, address, and mail than to stuff a card into an
envelope. $22.89 for 500 at GotPrint.com. Room on the address side
for a short personalization.
obAUE: Surprising, to me, is the wording on Cole's card. Not "Happy
Christmas...", but "Merry Christmas...".

" Merry Christmas" (not happy) is a standard greeting on UK Xmas cards.
Happy is used on cards with birthday, anniversary and Easter
greetings
Janet
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

And Halloween (urgh!)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by Janet
@gmail.com says...

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
For a few months I've been getting the email list of the English Spelling
Society (which used to be the Simplified Spelling Society), because I had
to sign up for it in order to view its archive, which I found cited somewhere
for a claim that in 1940 G B Shaw had included "ghoti" in his Christmas
post card (was that a thing?)

Of course it was. There are websites that offer 1940s Christmas
postcards for sale to collectors.
https://www.etsy.com/market/1940s_christmas_card
One source says the holiday postcard was the brainchild of Thomas
Shorrock - Leith, Scotland - when started producing such cards in the
1840s. Sir Henry Cole, later the first director of London's Victoria
and Albert Museum, sent out 1,000 holiday cards saying "Merry
Christmas and a Happy New Year to You" in 1843.
The custom is still in practice, and hundreds of thousands of
Christmas postcards - now often with a family photograph used instead
of an artist's work - are sent out every year. Much simpler to attach
a stamp, address, and mail than to stuff a card into an envelope.
$22.89 for 500 at GotPrint.com. Room on the address side for a short
personalization.
obAUE: Surprising, to me, is the wording on Cole's card. Not "Happy
Christmas...", but "Merry Christmas...".

" Merry Christmas" (not happy) is a standard greeting on UK Xmas cards.
Happy is used on cards with birthday, anniversary and Easter greetings
Janet

It is also used on dual-purpose Christmas cards:
"A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year".

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 07 Apr 2018 15:22:38 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Janet
@gmail.com says...

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
For a few months I've been getting the email list of the English Spelling
Society (which used to be the Simplified Spelling Society), because I had
to sign up for it in order to view its archive, which I found cited somewhere
for a claim that in 1940 G B Shaw had included "ghoti" in his Christmas
post card (was that a thing?)

Of course it was. There are websites that offer 1940s Christmas
postcards for sale to collectors.
https://www.etsy.com/market/1940s_christmas_card
One source says the holiday postcard was the brainchild of Thomas
Shorrock - Leith, Scotland - when started producing such cards in the
1840s. Sir Henry Cole, later the first director of London's Victoria
and Albert Museum, sent out 1,000 holiday cards saying "Merry
Christmas and a Happy New Year to You" in 1843.
The custom is still in practice, and hundreds of thousands of
Christmas postcards - now often with a family photograph used instead
of an artist's work - are sent out every year. Much simpler to attach
a stamp, address, and mail than to stuff a card into an envelope.
$22.89 for 500 at GotPrint.com. Room on the address side for a short
personalization.
obAUE: Surprising, to me, is the wording on Cole's card. Not "Happy
Christmas...", but "Merry Christmas...".

" Merry Christmas" (not happy) is a standard greeting on UK Xmas cards.
Happy is used on cards with birthday, anniversary and Easter greetings
Janet

"A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year".

It's my impression that Brits say "Happy Christmas" when wishing
others a good holiday where Americans say "Merry Christmas" in doing
so.

Not on cards, but in personal exchanges.

Am I wrong?

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
"A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year".

It's my impression that Brits say "Happy Christmas" when wishing
others a good holiday where Americans say "Merry Christmas" in doing
so.
Not on cards, but in personal exchanges.
Am I wrong?

We say both.

-- Richard

[Katy Jennison]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 07 Apr 2018 15:22:38 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Janet
@gmail.com says...

Post by Tony Cooper
One source says the holiday postcard was the brainchild of Thomas
Shorrock - Leith, Scotland - when started producing such cards in the
1840s. Sir Henry Cole, later the first director of London's Victoria
and Albert Museum, sent out 1,000 holiday cards saying "Merry
Christmas and a Happy New Year to You" in 1843.
obAUE: Surprising, to me, is the wording on Cole's card. Not "Happy
Christmas...", but "Merry Christmas...".

" Merry Christmas" (not happy) is a standard greeting on UK Xmas cards.
Happy is used on cards with birthday, anniversary and Easter greetings

"A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year".

It's my impression that Brits say "Happy Christmas" when wishing
others a good holiday where Americans say "Merry Christmas" in doing
so.
Not on cards, but in personal exchanges.
Am I wrong?

No, that's common, although not invariable.

In a card, the formula is frequently "Merry Christmas and a Happy New
Year!" because one wouldn't wish people a Merry New Year (if only
because in BrE it refers to the whole of the following year, rather than
just to New Year's Eve and/or Day) and it wouldn't be stylistically
satisfactory to repeat Happy.

When meeting someone in the street during the run-up to Christmas,
however, there's no problem with saying "Happy Christmas!" because at
that point in time it's a wish confined just to the immediate seasonal
celebration, and so it's not usually followed by "Happy New Year!", so
there's no double Happy. "Happy New Year!" is said when you meet them
after Christmas, and might continue to be said up to the middle of
January to people you haven't seen since Christmas.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:59:00 +0100, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 07 Apr 2018 15:22:38 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Janet
@gmail.com says...

Post by Tony Cooper
One source says the holiday postcard was the brainchild of Thomas
Shorrock - Leith, Scotland - when started producing such cards in the
1840s. Sir Henry Cole, later the first director of London's Victoria
and Albert Museum, sent out 1,000 holiday cards saying "Merry
Christmas and a Happy New Year to You" in 1843.
obAUE: Surprising, to me, is the wording on Cole's card. Not "Happy
Christmas...", but "Merry Christmas...".

" Merry Christmas" (not happy) is a standard greeting on UK Xmas cards.
Happy is used on cards with birthday, anniversary and Easter greetings

"A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year".

It's my impression that Brits say "Happy Christmas" when wishing
others a good holiday where Americans say "Merry Christmas" in doing
so.
Not on cards, but in personal exchanges.
Am I wrong?

No, that's common, although not invariable.
In a card, the formula is frequently "Merry Christmas and a Happy New
Year!" because one wouldn't wish people a Merry New Year (if only
because in BrE it refers to the whole of the following year, rather than
just to New Year's Eve and/or Day) and it wouldn't be stylistically
satisfactory to repeat Happy.
When meeting someone in the street during the run-up to Christmas,
however, there's no problem with saying "Happy Christmas!" because at
that point in time it's a wish confined just to the immediate seasonal
celebration, and so it's not usually followed by "Happy New Year!", so
there's no double Happy. "Happy New Year!" is said when you meet them
after Christmas, and might continue to be said up to the middle of
January to people you haven't seen since Christmas.

"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Katy Jennison
In a card, the formula is frequently "Merry Christmas and a Happy New
Year!" because one wouldn't wish people a Merry New Year (if only
because in BrE it refers to the whole of the following year, rather than
just to New Year's Eve and/or Day) and it wouldn't be stylistically
satisfactory to repeat Happy.
When meeting someone in the street during the run-up to Christmas,
however, there's no problem with saying "Happy Christmas!" because at
that point in time it's a wish confined just to the immediate seasonal
celebration, and so it's not usually followed by "Happy New Year!", so
there's no double Happy. "Happy New Year!" is said when you meet them
after Christmas, and might continue to be said up to the middle of
January to people you haven't seen since Christmas.

"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

-- Richard

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Katy Jennison
In a card, the formula is frequently "Merry Christmas and a Happy New
Year!" because one wouldn't wish people a Merry New Year (if only
because in BrE it refers to the whole of the following year, rather than
just to New Year's Eve and/or Day) and it wouldn't be stylistically
satisfactory to repeat Happy.
When meeting someone in the street during the run-up to Christmas,
however, there's no problem with saying "Happy Christmas!" because at
that point in time it's a wish confined just to the immediate seasonal
celebration, and so it's not usually followed by "Happy New Year!", so
there's no double Happy. "Happy New Year!" is said when you meet them
after Christmas, and might continue to be said up to the middle of
January to people you haven't seen since Christmas.

"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Bank holidays?

2018 Bank and Public Holidays:

New Year's Day: Monday 1 January
Good Friday: Friday 30 March
Easter Monday: Monday 2 April
Early May bank holiday: Monday 7 May
Spring bank holiday: Monday 28 May
Summer bank holiday: Monday 27 August
Christmas Day: Tuesday 25 December
Boxing Day: Wednesday 26 December

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/uk-bank-holidays-2018-what-days-off-british-people-get-how-many-easter-christmas-national-public-a7533036.html

Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.

We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith required.

-- Richard

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith required.

More PC in the USA: Recognizing other faiths and beliefs. Younger
people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

[Katy Jennison]

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith required.

More PC in the USA: Recognizing other faiths and beliefs. Younger
people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings. Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 23:20:43 +0100, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith required.

More PC in the USA: Recognizing other faiths and beliefs. Younger
people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings. Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

I don't know specifically where it came from, but conservatives
(right-wingers) created a flap about it some years ago. I guess
liberals had begun wishing people "Happy holidays" so as not to offend
other faiths. Many in the USA don't celebrate Christmas, but the
right-wing media made it a source of contention.

Anything to divide. Shades of Machiavelli.

I noticed this past year, though, that liberal news channels wished
guests and viewers a "Merry Christmas".

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in
that way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time
of the year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually
call a "vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a
summer holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing
someone a pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays"
(plural) just sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time
of the year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith
required.

More PC in the USA: Recognizing other faiths and beliefs.
Younger people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings. Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

We do talk about the Christmas holidays in Australia, and by it we mean
the December-January period when the schools (and various other
institutions) take their long summer break. For many people, that's when
they go off on holiday to the beaches or the mountains or whatever.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2018 16:55:32 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in
that way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time
of the year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually
call a "vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a
summer holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing
someone a pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays"
(plural) just sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time
of the year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith
required.

More PC in the USA: Recognizing other faiths and beliefs.
Younger people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings. Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

We do talk about the Christmas holidays in Australia, and by it we mean
the December-January period when the schools (and various other
institutions) take their long summer break. For many people, that's when
they go off on holiday to the beaches or the mountains or whatever.

In BrE we use "school holidays" to mean the times between terms when the
schools are closed. Some people may take the opportunity to "go on
holiday" (AmE: go on vacation) during those times.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/school_holiday

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holiday

[Janet]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Apr 2018 16:55:32 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in
that way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time
of the year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually
call a "vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a
summer holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing
someone a pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays"
(plural) just sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time
of the year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith
required.

More PC in the USA: Recognizing other faiths and beliefs.
Younger people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings. Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

We do talk about the Christmas holidays in Australia, and by it we mean
the December-January period when the schools (and various other
institutions) take their long summer break. For many people, that's when
they go off on holiday to the beaches or the mountains or whatever.

In BrE we use "school holidays" to mean the times between terms when the
schools are closed. Some people may take the opportunity to "go on
holiday" (AmE: go on vacation) during those times.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/school_holiday
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holiday

True, but when talking about periods between school terms, in Br E
people of any religion or none commonly call them Christmas holidays,
Easter holidays and summer holidays. Even if they stay home and don't
"go on holiday".

Janet.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Lewis]

Post by Janet

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Apr 2018 16:55:32 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in
that way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time
of the year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually
call a "vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a
summer holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing
someone a pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays"
(plural) just sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time
of the year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith required.

More PC in the USA: Recognizing other faiths and beliefs.
Younger people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings. Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

We do talk about the Christmas holidays in Australia, and by it we mean
the December-January period when the schools (and various other
institutions) take their long summer break. For many people, that's when
they go off on holiday to the beaches or the mountains or whatever.

In BrE we use "school holidays" to mean the times between terms when the
schools are closed. Some people may take the opportunity to "go on
holiday" (AmE: go on vacation) during those times.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/school_holiday
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holiday

True, but when talking about periods between school terms, in Br E
people of any religion or none commonly call them Christmas holidays,
Easter holidays and summer holidays. Even if they stay home and don't
"go on holiday".

I came across a book which referred to the school terms as Michaelmas and
Easter, and it was not an old book. Wish I could remember what it was.

The use of Michaelmas struck me as quite old.

(schools in England, if not in the UK in general, start on September
First, and Michaelmas is in September.)

Over here, the Christmas Break we had when I was a child is officially
"winter break" but most everyone still calls it Christmas Break. Our
break in the second half of the year has always, to my knowledge, been
"Spring Break" despite falling in February sometimes. I think the kids
in Catholic schools had a movable Easter Break instead.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Lewis
I came across a book which referred to the school terms as Michaelmas and
Easter, and it was not an old book. Wish I could remember what it was.

Cambridge University still has Michaelmas, Lent, and Easter terms.

-- Richard

[Katy Jennison]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Lewis
I came across a book which referred to the school terms as Michaelmas and
Easter, and it was not an old book. Wish I could remember what it was.

Cambridge University still has Michaelmas, Lent, and Easter terms.

Oxford has Michaelmas, Hilary and Trinity.

[Cheryl]

Post by Lewis

Post by Janet

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Apr 2018 16:55:32 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in
that way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time
of the year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually
call a "vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a
summer holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing
someone a pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays"
(plural) just sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time
of the year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith required.

More PC in the USA: Recognizing other faiths and beliefs.
Younger people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings. Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

We do talk about the Christmas holidays in Australia, and by it we mean
the December-January period when the schools (and various other
institutions) take their long summer break. For many people, that's when
they go off on holiday to the beaches or the mountains or whatever.

In BrE we use "school holidays" to mean the times between terms when the
schools are closed. Some people may take the opportunity to "go on
holiday" (AmE: go on vacation) during those times.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/school_holiday
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holiday

True, but when talking about periods between school terms, in Br E
people of any religion or none commonly call them Christmas holidays,
Easter holidays and summer holidays. Even if they stay home and don't
"go on holiday".

I came across a book which referred to the school terms as Michaelmas and
Easter, and it was not an old book. Wish I could remember what it was.
The use of Michaelmas struck me as quite old.
(schools in England, if not in the UK in general, start on September
First, and Michaelmas is in September.)
Over here, the Christmas Break we had when I was a child is officially
"winter break" but most everyone still calls it Christmas Break. Our
break in the second half of the year has always, to my knowledge, been
"Spring Break" despite falling in February sometimes. I think the kids
in Catholic schools had a movable Easter Break instead.

We have Christmas break, although I always thought it was a shame when
changing educational styles meant that the associated exams came in
January. In my day, they were in December. They fell on my birthday
quite often, but once they were over school could be blissfully
forgotten since there were no more exams until sometime in the spring.

Easter holidays used to vary by school board, but not necessarily by
religion. For a very long time, only one board - a small one in Labrador
- had a spring break instead. I think now they all have an Easter
holiday. The University now has a spring break (in February; I always
said February is such a dreary month we need a holiday then).

"Michaelmas" is one of those odd words no one uses around here.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Cheryl
"Michaelmas" is one of those odd words no one uses around here.

Do you have Michaelmas daisies?

-- Richard

[Cheryl]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Cheryl
"Michaelmas" is one of those odd words no one uses around here.

Do you have Michaelmas daisies?

I don't think I've heard the term in common use. There are lots of
daisies and asters available for gardens and probably growing in the wild.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Cheryl
"Michaelmas" is one of those odd words no one uses around here.

Do you have Michaelmas daisies?

I don't think I've heard the term in common use. There are lots of
daisies and asters available for gardens and probably growing in the wild.

One of the (English) quarter days.

Lady Day (25 March)
Midsummer Day (24 June)
Michaelmas (29 September)
Christmas (25 December)

Rents were often paid on quarter days.

[Ross]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Cheryl
"Michaelmas" is one of those odd words no one uses around here.

Do you have Michaelmas daisies?
-- Richard

We had them in B.C. when I was a child. My mother liked them and
pointed them out when we saw them. It was the only context in which
I heard the word. Years later when I read in books about "Michaelmas
term", it took quite a while to make the connection.

[Cheryl]

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny.  "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too.  No faith required.

More PC in the USA:  Recognizing other faiths and beliefs.  Younger
people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings.  Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

Same here, really. I don't know why there's the annual fuss about not
saying "Merry Christmas". In my experience, it doesn't really seem to be
an issue for those of other religious faiths, who in my experience have
no objection to "Christmas" being used in greetings at that time of
year. In fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has any personal
objections to the word "Christmas", but there are people who say that
they've heard that there are people who are offended, and better safe
than sorry. All second and third hand stuff.

And as a result, most cards sold at that time of year seem to have
carefully boring "Season's Greetings" to try to cover all eventualities.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny.  "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too.  No faith required.

More PC in the USA:  Recognizing other faiths and beliefs.  Younger
people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings.  Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

Same here, really. I don't know why there's the annual fuss about not
saying "Merry Christmas". In my experience, it doesn't really seem to be
an issue for those of other religious faiths, who in my experience have
no objection to "Christmas" being used in greetings at that time of
year. In fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has any personal
objections to the word "Christmas", but there are people who say that
they've heard that there are people who are offended, and better safe
than sorry. All second and third hand stuff.
And as a result, most cards sold at that time of year seem to have
carefully boring "Season's Greetings" to try to cover all eventualities.

It is a pernicious feature of the pc movement to be offended on behalf
of other people without any reference to the actual feelings or
experience of those people. Essentially it's just another, and arguably
worse, form of patronising control.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Cheryl

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny.  "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too.  No faith required.

More PC in the USA:  Recognizing other faiths and beliefs.  Younger
people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings.  Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

Same here, really. I don't know why there's the annual fuss about not
saying "Merry Christmas". In my experience, it doesn't really seem to be
an issue for those of other religious faiths, who in my experience have
no objection to "Christmas" being used in greetings at that time of
year. In fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has any personal
objections to the word "Christmas", but there are people who say that
they've heard that there are people who are offended, and better safe
than sorry. All second and third hand stuff.
And as a result, most cards sold at that time of year seem to have
carefully boring "Season's Greetings" to try to cover all eventualities.

It is a pernicious feature of the pc movement to be offended on behalf
of other people without any reference to the actual feelings or
experience of those people. Essentially it's just another, and arguably
worse, form of patronising control.

That is utterly wrong. The fuss about "the death of Christmas" is nonsense
cooked up by disgraced rightwing nutcase Bill O'Reilly in order to have
something to grouse about.

They're still upset that SCOTUS told them they can't have organized
prayer in public schools -- because First Amendment -- and that "Separate
but Equal" -- i.e. the little kikes and ragheads can sit quietly while
all the Great Again Americans recite the Lord's Prayer -- isn't.

SCOTUS did not even hint that a child can't say to themself a Hail Mary
or whatever they do before an exam.

[Quinn C]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Cheryl

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny.  "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too.  No faith required.

More PC in the USA:  Recognizing other faiths and beliefs.  Younger
people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings.  Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

Same here, really. I don't know why there's the annual fuss about not
saying "Merry Christmas". In my experience, it doesn't really seem to be
an issue for those of other religious faiths, who in my experience have
no objection to "Christmas" being used in greetings at that time of
year. In fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has any personal
objections to the word "Christmas", but there are people who say that
they've heard that there are people who are offended, and better safe
than sorry. All second and third hand stuff.
And as a result, most cards sold at that time of year seem to have
carefully boring "Season's Greetings" to try to cover all eventualities.

It is a pernicious feature of the pc movement to be offended on behalf
of other people without any reference to the actual feelings or
experience of those people. Essentially it's just another, and arguably
worse, form of patronising control.

That might be so if there were such a thing as a PC movement, and it
had any significant power to wield.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny.  "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too.  No faith required.

More PC in the USA:  Recognizing other faiths and beliefs.  Younger
people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings.  Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

Same here, really. I don't know why there's the annual fuss about not
saying "Merry Christmas". In my experience, it doesn't really seem to be
an issue for those of other religious faiths, who in my experience have
no objection to "Christmas" being used in greetings at that time of
year.

Some do.

https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/

https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286

http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

In fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has any personal

Post by Cheryl
objections to the word "Christmas", but there are people who say that
they've heard that there are people who are offended, and better safe
than sorry. All second and third hand stuff.

I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a happy
Independence Day on July 4.

Post by Cheryl
And as a result, most cards sold at that time of year seem to have
carefully boring "Season's Greetings" to try to cover all eventualities.

Some, anyway. There are also boring Christmas cards.

[Cheryl]

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4. I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.

I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.

I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.

I'd be impressed if you knew enough about Canadian history to realize
that July 1 is also a day for remembering the war dead in Newfoundland.

[Lewis]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4. I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.

What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?

Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.

Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 00:37:12 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4. I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.

What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?
Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.
Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

Really hard to put up with, innit? All those people wishing you well.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 00:37:12 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4. I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.

What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?
Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.
Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

Really hard to put up with, innit? All those people wishing you well.

I don't care about the Christmas stuff at all because I don't consider
it a religious holiday. I DO get annoyed at Easter, Lent, and the
general "have a blessed day" crap, but everything about Christmas other
than the music is secular or pagan.

[RH Draney]

Post by Lewis

Post by Cheryl
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.

What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?

Now that Easter's passed, the 4th of July decorations are already on
display in the dollar stores...on July 5th, the Halloween stuff goes
out...(the Easter things were on sale since the day after Valentine's
Day)....r

[Lewis]

Post by RH Draney

Post by Lewis

Post by Cheryl
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.

What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?

Now that Easter's passed, the 4th of July decorations are already on
display in the dollar stores...on July 5th, the Halloween stuff goes
out...(the Easter things were on sale since the day after Valentine's
Day)....r

After July 4th is Back To School or Christmas. The Halloween stuff
doesn't show up until around the 1st of September.

I am very glad to be done with Halloween.

[Cheryl]

Post by Lewis

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4. I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.

What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?

I'd think we had a sudden influx of American immigrants!

Post by Lewis
Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.
Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

And I understand theoretically that it bothers some of them. I don't
really understand why. It's as though I were upset - to use an example
that has more meaning to me than American Independence Day - I were
offended at being wished a happy Mother's Day when I am not a mother.
That does happen annually, and at one time I thought it was a mistake I
needed to correct. Now I smile and say thank you, accept the flower if
some group is handing them out to all "mothers", and, if the other
person looks like they might have been a female of childbearing years at
some point, return the greeting. I accept it as it's probably intended,
a kindly action, and not as some kind of pronouncement on the role of
childbearing in my or any woman's life.

[charles]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Lewis

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4. I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.

What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?

I'd think we had a sudden influx of American immigrants!

Post by Lewis
Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.
Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

And I understand theoretically that it bothers some of them. I don't
really understand why. It's as though I were upset - to use an example
that has more meaning to me than American Independence Day - I were
offended at being wished a happy Mother's Day when I am not a mother.
That does happen annually, and at one time I thought it was a mistake I
needed to correct. Now I smile and say thank you, accept the flower if
some group is handing them out to all "mothers", and, if the other
person looks like they might have been a female of childbearing years at
some point, return the greeting. I accept it as it's probably intended,
a kindly action, and not as some kind of pronouncement on the role of
childbearing in my or any woman's life.

Mother's Day was originally "Mothering Sunday" when female servants were
given some time off work to visit their mothers.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by charles

Post by Cheryl

Post by Lewis

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4. I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.

What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?

I'd think we had a sudden influx of American immigrants!

Post by Lewis
Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.
Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

And I understand theoretically that it bothers some of them. I don't
really understand why. It's as though I were upset - to use an example
that has more meaning to me than American Independence Day - I were
offended at being wished a happy Mother's Day when I am not a mother.
That does happen annually, and at one time I thought it was a mistake I
needed to correct. Now I smile and say thank you, accept the flower if
some group is handing them out to all "mothers", and, if the other
person looks like they might have been a female of childbearing years at
some point, return the greeting. I accept it as it's probably intended,
a kindly action, and not as some kind of pronouncement on the role of
childbearing in my or any woman's life.

Mother's Day was originally "Mothering Sunday" when female servants were
given some time off work to visit their mothers.
--

No, originally it was the 4th Sunday in Lent, a day on which people
were invited to observe the Sabbath in their mother church (ie. at
their birthplace). As it was a Sabbath, it was already a holy day and
time off to attend church would be expected as normal.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by Cheryl

Post by Lewis
What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?

I'd think we had a sudden influx of American immigrants!

Post by Lewis
Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.
Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

And I understand theoretically that it bothers some of them. I don't
really understand why.

Because not being Christian is very important to some people, and as
Lewis implied, there's a great deal of intentional and unintentional
pressure in America to be Christian or follow Christian customs. The
annoyance can pile up. Also because, as I said, it's literally
thoughtless and inconsiderate--the person doesn't think about whether
"Merry Christmas" makes sense in the situation.

Post by Cheryl
It's as though I were upset - to use an example
that has more meaning to me than American Independence Day - I were
offended at being wished a happy Mother's Day when I am not a mother.
That does happen annually, and at one time I thought it was a mistake I
needed to correct. Now I smile and say thank you, accept the flower if
some group is handing them out to all "mothers",

Wow, I've never heard of such a thing. I'm surprised that some women
don't object, since for some who aren't mothers, the reasons for that
are painful.

Post by Cheryl
and, if the other
person looks like they might have been a female of childbearing years at
some point, return the greeting.

That's pretty much what I do with "Merry Christmas".

Post by Cheryl
I accept it as it's probably intended,
a kindly action, and not as some kind of pronouncement on the role of
childbearing in my or any woman's life.

Or as not bothering to check whether you're a mother or not.

[Cheryl]

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Cheryl

Post by Lewis
What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?

I'd think we had a sudden influx of American immigrants!

Post by Lewis
Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.
Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

And I understand theoretically that it bothers some of them. I don't
really understand why.

Because not being Christian is very important to some people, and as
Lewis implied, there's a great deal of intentional and unintentional
pressure in America to be Christian or follow Christian customs.  The
annoyance can pile up.  Also because, as I said, it's literally
thoughtless and inconsiderate--the person doesn't think about whether
"Merry Christmas" makes sense in the situation.

Post by Cheryl
It's as though I were upset - to use an example that has more meaning
to me than American Independence Day - I were offended at being wished
a happy Mother's Day when I am not a mother. That does happen
annually, and at one time I thought it was a mistake I needed to
correct. Now I smile and say thank you, accept the flower if some
group is handing them out to all "mothers",

Wow, I've never heard of such a thing.  I'm surprised that some women
don't object, since for some who aren't mothers, the reasons for that
are painful.

Post by Cheryl
and, if the other person looks like they might have been a female of
childbearing years at some point, return the greeting.

That's pretty much what I do with "Merry Christmas".

Post by Cheryl
I accept it as it's probably intended, a kindly action, and not as
some kind of pronouncement on the role of childbearing in my or any
woman's life.

Or as not bothering to check whether you're a mother or not.

The response to "That's OK, I don't need one. I'm not a mother" is "Oh,
but I'm sure you've acted like a mother towards someone - and you had a
mother, or someone who acted like a mother to you. Or a grandmother." If
they're that eager to give me a flower and good wishes, I don't argue
the point, and I'm long, long past any desire or need to explain my
reproductive history to anyone. Actually, I can't remember ever having
such a desire or need, at least with respect to strangers.

People who do this don't give out flowers to men on Father's Day,
although I've seen attempts to substitute some other small token - like
a bookmark with a suitable slogan or a booklet praising fatherhood. I
don't think that's caught on, though.

[charles]

In article <***@mid.individual.net>,
Cheryl <***@mun.ca> wrote:

[Snip]

Post by Cheryl
People who do this don't give out flowers to men on Father's Day,

we had this behaviour with our Drama Club some years ag. The ladies in
thecast were all given flowers on the last night and the men got nothing.
One of the older female members of the cast reached into the wings and then
gave all the men a carnation. Honour was satisfied.

[Quinn C]

[Christmas wishes]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Cheryl
And I understand theoretically that it bothers some of them. I don't
really understand why.

Because not being Christian is very important to some people, and as
Lewis implied, there's a great deal of intentional and unintentional
pressure in America to be Christian or follow Christian customs.  The
annoyance can pile up.  Also because, as I said, it's literally
thoughtless and inconsiderate--the person doesn't think about whether
"Merry Christmas" makes sense in the situation.

Post by Cheryl
It's as though I were upset - to use an example that has more meaning
to me than American Independence Day - I were offended at being wished
a happy Mother's Day when I am not a mother. That does happen
annually, and at one time I thought it was a mistake I needed to
correct. Now I smile and say thank you, accept the flower if some
group is handing them out to all "mothers",

Wow, I've never heard of such a thing.  I'm surprised that some women
don't object, since for some who aren't mothers, the reasons for that
are painful.

Post by Cheryl
and, if the other person looks like they might have been a female of
childbearing years at some point, return the greeting.

That's pretty much what I do with "Merry Christmas".

Post by Cheryl
I accept it as it's probably intended, a kindly action, and not as
some kind of pronouncement on the role of childbearing in my or any
woman's life.

Or as not bothering to check whether you're a mother or not.

The response to "That's OK, I don't need one. I'm not a mother" is "Oh,
but I'm sure you've acted like a mother towards someone - and you had a
mother, or someone who acted like a mother to you. Or a grandmother."

Which is a thing that could be said of many men, and some children
(many children in former times.) It seems to me that that almost
invalidates the idea of the day. Not that it matters to me in this
particular case. I grew up mostly ignoring it, because my mother didn't
want anything to do with it. Also, they've done the same thing with
Valentine's day, which I used to think was for lovers, but now is for
people who do or should love or are or should be loved, i.e. humans.
Probably for pets too, in pet lover's circles.

Post by Cheryl
If they're that eager to give me a flower and good wishes, I don't
argue the point,

Yes, as a social practice, I wouldn't, either. They might be insulted
in turn.

[Katy Jennison]

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Cheryl

Post by Lewis
What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?

I'd think we had a sudden influx of American immigrants!

Post by Lewis
Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.
Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

And I understand theoretically that it bothers some of them. I don't
really understand why.

Because not being Christian is very important to some people, and as
Lewis implied, there's a great deal of intentional and unintentional
pressure in America to be Christian or follow Christian customs.  The
annoyance can pile up.  Also because, as I said, it's literally
thoughtless and inconsiderate--the person doesn't think about whether
"Merry Christmas" makes sense in the situation.

Ah. It's not really like that over here in Blighty. No-one knows or
cares, or wants to know, what anyone else's persuasion is, outside a few
very specific contexts and a few nutters. Talking about one's religion
or absence of it is embarrassing, and Not Done.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 21:02:31 +0100, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Cheryl

Post by Lewis
What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?

I'd think we had a sudden influx of American immigrants!

Post by Lewis
Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.
Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

And I understand theoretically that it bothers some of them. I don't
really understand why.

Because not being Christian is very important to some people, and as
Lewis implied, there's a great deal of intentional and unintentional
pressure in America to be Christian or follow Christian customs.  The
annoyance can pile up.  Also because, as I said, it's literally
thoughtless and inconsiderate--the person doesn't think about whether
"Merry Christmas" makes sense in the situation.

Ah. It's not really like that over here in Blighty. No-one knows or
cares, or wants to know, what anyone else's persuasion is, outside a few
very specific contexts and a few nutters. Talking about one's religion
or absence of it is embarrassing, and Not Done.

I am somewhat surprised that the word "offensive" was used about the
reaction of non-Christians being greeted with "Merry Christmas". It's
not an overt religious comment. It's simply a greeting that reflects
the season, and the season is celebrated by many non-Christians.

Celebrating the season doesn't, in my mind, involve a religious
celebration. I put up Christmas lights outside the house, we have a
Christmas tree, we exchange presents. None of those actions are based
on our religious standing.

I'm careful to wish a Jewish person "Happy Holidays", but only if I
know they are Jewish. I'm sure I've wished Jewish people "Merry
Christmas", but they are people that I don't know as being Jewish.

We pick a Christmas card that is neutral; usually something in "Best
Wishes of the Season" type.

We receive cards from other people that are patently religious, but I
don't give that any thought. Unless it's a family photograph card, I
really don't pay any attention to the card itself. I look to see who
it's from, and read any note included.

[Quinn C]

Post by Tony Cooper
I am somewhat surprised that the word "offensive" was used about the
reaction of non-Christians being greeted with "Merry Christmas". It's
not an overt religious comment. It's simply a greeting that reflects
the season, and the season is celebrated by many non-Christians.
Celebrating the season doesn't, in my mind, involve a religious
celebration. I put up Christmas lights outside the house, we have a
Christmas tree, we exchange presents. None of those actions are based
on our religious standing.

Hm, I'm not quite sure about that. Isn't that the attitude that gave
rise to terms like "celebrating Jewish Christmas"? Ok, not in your
case, personally ...

Post by Tony Cooper
I'm careful to wish a Jewish person "Happy Holidays", but only if I
know they are Jewish. I'm sure I've wished Jewish people "Merry
Christmas", but they are people that I don't know as being Jewish.

To me, the Christmas season encompasses the rites and traditions
surrounding the Christian celebration. While many of these accompanying
traditions aren't in themselves religious, or specific to one religion,
the term "Christmas" is an unmistakable reference to the
Christian(ized) aspects of the whole thing.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Jerry Friedman
Because not being Christian is very important to some people, and as
Lewis implied, there's a great deal of intentional and unintentional
pressure in America to be Christian or follow Christian customs. The
annoyance can pile up.

And in addition, there is this delusion that Christmas is a Christian
holiday.

[Janet]

Post by Lewis

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4. I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.

What if a lot of people in Canada spent the entire month of June and the
first week of July wishing you a "Happy July 4th Independence Day"?
Or spent most of January and February wishing you the blessings of
George Washington's birthday.
Because that is what it is like for non-Christians in the US.

It's not at all like that for non-Christians in UK, like us.

Christmas and Easter have zero religious significance for our family
but we still keep and enjoy them as seasonal celebrations in midwinter
and spring which long predate Christianity.

I bid anyone and everyone Happy Christmas and Easter as do many friends
who are Jewish, Muslim, Sikh and Buddhists. Our families enjoy all the
seasonal secular fun (the tree, santa, reindeer, decorated house,
stockings, crackers, food, presents, fairs, parties, cards, get-
togethers, concerts. At Easter we enjoy the decorations, food, cards,
egg hunts, chocolate, bunnies etc.

Janet


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

My sentence on thoughtlessness was thinkless.

Post by Cheryl
If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4.

I was thinking of the current situation, so the wish would be by e-mail
or in this group.

Post by Cheryl
I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.

When I was little, my family would sometimes drive around to look at the
Christmas lights.

Post by Cheryl
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.

I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year. (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Post by Cheryl
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.
I'd be impressed if you knew enough about Canadian history to realize
that July 1 is also a day for remembering the war dead in Newfoundland.

I do now.

How about "Season's greetings to Americans and Newfoundlanders"?

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

My sentence on thoughtlessness was thinkless.

Post by Cheryl
If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4.

I was thinking of the current situation, so the wish would be by e-mail
or in this group.

Post by Cheryl
I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.

When I was little, my family would sometimes drive around to look at the
Christmas lights.

Post by Cheryl
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.

I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year. (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Are you able to quote these authorities? There does not appear to be
anything contradictory to Islamic tenets in celebrating New Year or
indeed Christmas given that Jesus is recognised as a prophet.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year. (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Are you able to quote these authorities? There does not appear to be
anything contradictory to Islamic tenets in celebrating New Year or
indeed Christmas given that Jesus is recognised as a prophet.

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/19673

https://askaquestionto.us/question-answer/fiqh/is-it-permissible-to-celebrate-the-new-year

The next two say Muslims are not allowed to wish others Merry
Christmas or Happy New Year (or at least they /shouldn't/ do the
latter). I assume that means they can't celebrate those holidays.

https://islamqa.info/en/69811

http://www.islamicteachings.org/forum/topic/22318-regarding-wishing-happy-christmas-happy-new-year/

Other authorities disagree, at least about "Merry Christmas". I
have no opinion on whose interpretation of Islam is right.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year. (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Are you able to quote these authorities? There does not appear to be
anything contradictory to Islamic tenets in celebrating New Year or
indeed Christmas given that Jesus is recognised as a prophet.

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/19673

...

In case anyone reads only the title of this one ("Celebrating
birthdays and anniversaries"), I'll quote the part of it that I
thought applied to Christmas and New Year's:

"To make this clearer we would like to say that Islam approves only
two feasts there is no third feast. The evidence is the Hadith reported
by Imam Abu Dawood from Anas (RA) that The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi
wa Sallam) came to Madinah while, people there had two days they played
in. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) asked, 'what are these
two days?' They said, 'these are two days we used to play in, in our
Jahiliyyah'. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said, 'Allah
has replaced them with two better days: Eid al-Adha and Eid al-Fitr'."

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year. (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Are you able to quote these authorities? There does not appear to be
anything contradictory to Islamic tenets in celebrating New Year or
indeed Christmas given that Jesus is recognised as a prophet.

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/19673

...
In case anyone reads only the title of this one ("Celebrating
birthdays and anniversaries"), I'll quote the part of it that I
"To make this clearer we would like to say that Islam approves only
two feasts there is no third feast. The evidence is the Hadith reported
by Imam Abu Dawood from Anas (RA) that The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi
wa Sallam) came to Madinah while, people there had two days they played
in. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) asked, 'what are these
two days?' They said, 'these are two days we used to play in, in our
Jahiliyyah'. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said, 'Allah
has replaced them with two better days: Eid al-Adha and Eid al-Fitr'."

(Which are, respectively, celebrations of the end of a Hajj [pilgrimage to
Mecca] and of the end of Ramadan [the month of fasting by day].)

[Cheryl]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

My sentence on thoughtlessness was thinkless.

Post by Cheryl
If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4.

I was thinking of the current situation, so the wish would be by e-mail
or in this group.

Post by Cheryl
I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.

When I was little, my family would sometimes drive around to look at the
Christmas lights.

Post by Cheryl
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.

I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year.  (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Post by Cheryl
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either
July 1 or July 4.
I'd be impressed if you knew enough about Canadian history to realize
that July 1 is also a day for remembering the war dead in Newfoundland.

I do now.
How about "Season's greetings to Americans and Newfoundlanders"?

Oh, I don't turn down "Season's Greetings" if someone sends them to me,
even though I find it a little neutral - like something sold in plain
packaging, a "no-name" kind of product.

[Quinn C]

Post by Cheryl
Oh, I don't turn down "Season's Greetings" if someone sends them to me,
even though I find it a little neutral - like something sold in plain
packaging, a "no-name" kind of product.

I have a generally favorable impression of no-name products. I find
that no-name often translates to no-nonsense. Muji ("No Brand") is a
widely recognized and popular Japanese retailer, and has already
expanded to some 25 other countries.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muji>

| Muji was awarded five gold product design awards by the International
| Forum Design in Germany.

I didn't know they went as far as selling a car (shortly after I left
Japan)!

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 08:53:37 -0600, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

My sentence on thoughtlessness was thinkless.

Post by Cheryl
If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4.

I was thinking of the current situation, so the wish would be by e-mail
or in this group.

Post by Cheryl
I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.

When I was little, my family would sometimes drive around to look at the
Christmas lights.

Post by Cheryl
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.

I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year. (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Post by Cheryl
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.
I'd be impressed if you knew enough about Canadian history to realize
that July 1 is also a day for remembering the war dead in Newfoundland.

I do now.
How about "Season's greetings to Americans and Newfoundlanders"?

More history:

The Puritan lawmakers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony started the war
on Christmas in 1659 by issuing this edict outlawing the observance of
Christmas:

"For preventing disorders arising in several places within this
jurisdiction, by reason of some still observing such festivals as were
superstitiously kept in other countries, to the great dishonor of God
and offence of others, it is therefore ordered by this Court and the
authority thereof, that whosoever shall be found observing any such
day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting,
or any other way, upon such accountants as aforesaid, every person so
offending shall pay of every such offence five shillings, as a fine to
the county."

I believe that the practice of not observing Christmas started in
England with the Puritans, but it was peculiar to their religion and
was not legislated.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 08:53:37 -0600, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

My sentence on thoughtlessness was thinkless.

Post by Cheryl
If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4.

I was thinking of the current situation, so the wish would be by e-mail
or in this group.

Post by Cheryl
I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.

When I was little, my family would sometimes drive around to look at the
Christmas lights.

Post by Cheryl
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.

I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year. (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Post by Cheryl
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.
I'd be impressed if you knew enough about Canadian history to realize
that July 1 is also a day for remembering the war dead in Newfoundland.

I do now.
How about "Season's greetings to Americans and Newfoundlanders"?

The Puritan lawmakers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony started the war
on Christmas in 1659 by issuing this edict outlawing the observance of
"For preventing disorders arising in several places within this
jurisdiction, by reason of some still observing such festivals as were
superstitiously kept in other countries, to the great dishonor of God
and offence of others, it is therefore ordered by this Court and the
authority thereof, that whosoever shall be found observing any such
day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting,
or any other way, upon such accountants as aforesaid, every person so
offending shall pay of every such offence five shillings, as a fine to
the county."
I believe that the practice of not observing Christmas started in
England with the Puritans, but it was peculiar to their religion and
was not legislated.

As the Puritans under Cromwell ruled England it was indeed
legislated ...

In January 1645 a group of ministers appointed by parliament
produced a new Directory of Public Worship, which set out a
new church organisation and new forms of worship to be adopted
and followed in England and Wales. The Directory made clear that
Sundays were to be strictly observed as holy days, for the worship
of God, but that there were to be no other holy days – ‘festival
days, vulgarly called Holy Days, having no warrant in the Word of
God, are not to be continued’. Parliamentary legislation adopting
the Directory of Public Worship, initially as one of several forms
which could be followed in England and Wales, but then as the
only form which was legal and was to be allowed, abolishing and
making illegal any other forms of worship and church services,
therefore prohibited (on paper at least) the religious celebration
of all other holy days, including Christmas. In June 1647 the Long
Parliament reiterated this by passing an Ordinance confirming the
abolition of the feasts of Christmas, Easter and Whitsun, though
at the same time parliament said that the second Tuesday in each
month was to be kept as a non-religious, secular holiday, providing
a break for servants, apprentices and other employees.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 08:53:37 -0600, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

My sentence on thoughtlessness was thinkless.

Post by Cheryl
If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4.

I was thinking of the current situation, so the wish would be by e-mail
or in this group.

Post by Cheryl
I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.

When I was little, my family would sometimes drive around to look at the
Christmas lights.

Post by Cheryl
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.

I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year. (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Post by Cheryl
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.
I'd be impressed if you knew enough about Canadian history to realize
that July 1 is also a day for remembering the war dead in Newfoundland.

I do now.
How about "Season's greetings to Americans and Newfoundlanders"?

The Puritan lawmakers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony started the war
on Christmas in 1659 by issuing this edict outlawing the observance of
"For preventing disorders arising in several places within this
jurisdiction, by reason of some still observing such festivals as were
superstitiously kept in other countries, to the great dishonor of God
and offence of others, it is therefore ordered by this Court and the
authority thereof, that whosoever shall be found observing any such
day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting,
or any other way, upon such accountants as aforesaid, every person so
offending shall pay of every such offence five shillings, as a fine to
the county."
I believe that the practice of not observing Christmas started in
England with the Puritans, but it was peculiar to their religion and
was not legislated.

As the Puritans under Cromwell ruled England it was indeed
legislated ...
In January 1645 a group of ministers appointed by parliament
produced a new Directory of Public Worship, which set out a
new church organisation and new forms of worship to be adopted
and followed in England and Wales. The Directory made clear that
Sundays were to be strictly observed as holy days, for the worship
of God, but that there were to be no other holy days – ‘festival
days, vulgarly called Holy Days, having no warrant in the Word of
God, are not to be continued’. Parliamentary legislation adopting
the Directory of Public Worship, initially as one of several forms
which could be followed in England and Wales, but then as the
only form which was legal and was to be allowed, abolishing and
making illegal any other forms of worship and church services,
therefore prohibited (on paper at least) the religious celebration
of all other holy days, including Christmas. In June 1647 the Long
Parliament reiterated this by passing an Ordinance confirming the
abolition of the feasts of Christmas, Easter and Whitsun, though
at the same time parliament said that the second Tuesday in each
month was to be kept as a non-religious, secular holiday, providing
a break for servants, apprentices and other employees.

Yes, but Cromwell didn't rule England in 1645; he did not begin his
service as Lord Protector until 1653; he did dominate the Rump
Parliament, but that started in 1649.

The 1645 edict was more along the lines of observing Christmas
respectfully with devout contemplation.

Christmas was still observed - unlike the Puritans in New England
where Christmas was strictly not observed.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 08:53:37 -0600, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

My sentence on thoughtlessness was thinkless.

Post by Cheryl
If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4.

I was thinking of the current situation, so the wish would be by e-mail
or in this group.

Post by Cheryl
I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.

When I was little, my family would sometimes drive around to look at the
Christmas lights.

Post by Cheryl
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.

I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year. (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Post by Cheryl
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.
I'd be impressed if you knew enough about Canadian history to realize
that July 1 is also a day for remembering the war dead in Newfoundland.

I do now.
How about "Season's greetings to Americans and Newfoundlanders"?

The Puritan lawmakers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony started the war
on Christmas in 1659 by issuing this edict outlawing the observance of
"For preventing disorders arising in several places within this
jurisdiction, by reason of some still observing such festivals as were
superstitiously kept in other countries, to the great dishonor of God
and offence of others, it is therefore ordered by this Court and the
authority thereof, that whosoever shall be found observing any such
day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting,
or any other way, upon such accountants as aforesaid, every person so
offending shall pay of every such offence five shillings, as a fine to
the county."
I believe that the practice of not observing Christmas started in
England with the Puritans, but it was peculiar to their religion and
was not legislated.

As the Puritans under Cromwell ruled England it was indeed
legislated ...
In January 1645 a group of ministers appointed by parliament
produced a new Directory of Public Worship, which set out a
new church organisation and new forms of worship to be adopted
and followed in England and Wales. The Directory made clear that
Sundays were to be strictly observed as holy days, for the worship
of God, but that there were to be no other holy days – ‘festival
days, vulgarly called Holy Days, having no warrant in the Word of
God, are not to be continued’. Parliamentary legislation adopting
the Directory of Public Worship, initially as one of several forms
which could be followed in England and Wales, but then as the
only form which was legal and was to be allowed, abolishing and
making illegal any other forms of worship and church services,
therefore prohibited (on paper at least) the religious celebration
of all other holy days, including Christmas. In June 1647 the Long
Parliament reiterated this by passing an Ordinance confirming the
abolition of the feasts of Christmas, Easter and Whitsun, though
at the same time parliament said that the second Tuesday in each
month was to be kept as a non-religious, secular holiday, providing
a break for servants, apprentices and other employees.

Yes, but Cromwell didn't rule England in 1645; he did not begin his
service as Lord Protector until 1653; he did dominate the Rump
Parliament, but that started in 1649.
The 1645 edict was more along the lines of observing Christmas
respectfully with devout contemplation.
Christmas was still observed - unlike the Puritans in New England
where Christmas was strictly not observed.

But the 1647 Ordinance abolished Christmas altogether, which was
the point.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 09:34:39 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 08:53:37 -0600, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Cheryl

Post by Jerry Friedman
Some do.
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2005/12/06/dont-wish-me-a-merry-christmas/
https://books.google.com/books?id=N007mXyw5RQC&pg=PA286
http://www.jagritbharat.com/index.php/opinions/160-vsociety/674-christmas-enthusiasm

Some, clearly. Whether it's a common enough issue to justify the annual
hoo-haw, I don't really know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't it offensive, just thoughtless, as if I were to wish you a
happy Independence Day on July 4.

My sentence on thoughtlessness was thinkless.

Post by Cheryl
If you did it in Canada, I would think it a bit odd. If I were in the
US, I wouldn't consider it either odd or thoughtless even though I
probably wouldn't be celebrating July 4.

I was thinking of the current situation, so the wish would be by e-mail
or in this group.

Post by Cheryl
I suppose I might go out and
observe the festivities, but on the other hand, I generally avoid large
crowds, parades, fireworks etc.

When I was little, my family would sometimes drive around to look at the
Christmas lights.

Post by Cheryl
I would think it really odd if you sent me some kind of generic
"Congratulations on the founding of your country" card in July, and not
only because it isn't the custom here to exchange cards on July 1. A
"Happy Independence Day" card could be taken as an expression of your
enthusiasm for July 4; the other is just strange.

I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year. (At some point someone's
going to notice that according to some Muslim authorities, Muslims
aren't even allowed to celebrate the New Year, much less the others.)

Post by Cheryl
I don't think I'd be offended either way, even if I did put down the
generic card as merely an odd thing to do on the occasion of either July
1 or July 4.
I'd be impressed if you knew enough about Canadian history to realize
that July 1 is also a day for remembering the war dead in Newfoundland.

I do now.
How about "Season's greetings to Americans and Newfoundlanders"?

The Puritan lawmakers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony started the war
on Christmas in 1659 by issuing this edict outlawing the observance of
"For preventing disorders arising in several places within this
jurisdiction, by reason of some still observing such festivals as were
superstitiously kept in other countries, to the great dishonor of God
and offence of others, it is therefore ordered by this Court and the
authority thereof, that whosoever shall be found observing any such
day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting,
or any other way, upon such accountants as aforesaid, every person so
offending shall pay of every such offence five shillings, as a fine to
the county."
I believe that the practice of not observing Christmas started in
England with the Puritans, but it was peculiar to their religion and
was not legislated.

As the Puritans under Cromwell ruled England it was indeed
legislated ...
In January 1645 a group of ministers appointed by parliament
produced a new Directory of Public Worship, which set out a
new church organisation and new forms of worship to be adopted
and followed in England and Wales. The Directory made clear that
Sundays were to be strictly observed as holy days, for the worship
of God, but that there were to be no other holy days – ‘festival
days, vulgarly called Holy Days, having no warrant in the Word of
God, are not to be continued’. Parliamentary legislation adopting
the Directory of Public Worship, initially as one of several forms
which could be followed in England and Wales, but then as the
only form which was legal and was to be allowed, abolishing and
making illegal any other forms of worship and church services,
therefore prohibited (on paper at least) the religious celebration
of all other holy days, including Christmas. In June 1647 the Long
Parliament reiterated this by passing an Ordinance confirming the
abolition of the feasts of Christmas, Easter and Whitsun, though
at the same time parliament said that the second Tuesday in each
month was to be kept as a non-religious, secular holiday, providing
a break for servants, apprentices and other employees.

Yes, but Cromwell didn't rule England in 1645; he did not begin his
service as Lord Protector until 1653; he did dominate the Rump
Parliament, but that started in 1649.
The 1645 edict was more along the lines of observing Christmas
respectfully with devout contemplation.
Christmas was still observed - unlike the Puritans in New England
where Christmas was strictly not observed.

But the 1647 Ordinance abolished Christmas altogether, which was
the point.

And its passage produced the same result as the U.S federal
government's ban on the possession of marijuana.

But the 1647 ordinance "officially" banned festivals and celebrating
from the realm, and it called for days of fasting and contemplation.
Christmas was still observed, just not with ceremony or frivolity.

"An Ordinance for Abolishing of Festivals, 1647".

"...the so-called religious holidays such as the Nativity Day, Easter
Day, Pentecostal Day, etc., cannot be used as festivals in the Kingdom
of England and the territory of Wales."

https://translate.google.com.mx/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.thepaper.cn/baidu.jsp%3Fcontid%3D1412813&prev=search

[Cheryl]

Post by Mack A. Damia
The Puritan lawmakers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony started the war
on Christmas in 1659 by issuing this edict outlawing the observance of
"For preventing disorders arising in several places within this
jurisdiction, by reason of some still observing such festivals as were
superstitiously kept in other countries, to the great dishonor of God
and offence of others, it is therefore ordered by this Court and the
authority thereof, that whosoever shall be found observing any such
day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting,
or any other way, upon such accountants as aforesaid, every person so
offending shall pay of every such offence five shillings, as a fine to
the county."
I believe that the practice of not observing Christmas started in
England with the Puritans, but it was peculiar to their religion and
was not legislated.

When I was growing up, there a local man converted to some religion that
forbade the celebration of Christmas, probably for similar reasons. I
can't remember what denomination it was, aside from the fact that it was
one of the smaller Christian sects. I think it might have been the one
we children called "Archie's Church" after the founder of the local
branch, and if so, I never did know the official name. His wife and
children did not convert from Anglicanism, and I gather there was
considerable family dispute over this difference, particularly his wish
to eliminate all Christmas festivities. I never did find out if they
eventually settled their differences.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Mack A. Damia
The Puritan lawmakers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony started the war
on Christmas in 1659 by issuing this edict outlawing the observance of
"For preventing disorders arising in several places within this
jurisdiction, by reason of some still observing such festivals as were
superstitiously kept in other countries, to the great dishonor of God
and offence of others, it is therefore ordered by this Court and the
authority thereof, that whosoever shall be found observing any such
day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting,
or any other way, upon such accountants as aforesaid, every person so
offending shall pay of every such offence five shillings, as a fine to
the county."
I believe that the practice of not observing Christmas started in
England with the Puritans, but it was peculiar to their religion and
was not legislated.

When I was growing up, there a local man converted to some religion that
forbade the celebration of Christmas, probably for similar reasons. I
can't remember what denomination it was, aside from the fact that it was
one of the smaller Christian sects. I think it might have been the one
we children called "Archie's Church" after the founder of the local
branch, and if so, I never did know the official name. His wife and
children did not convert from Anglicanism, and I gather there was
considerable family dispute over this difference, particularly his wish
to eliminate all Christmas festivities. I never did find out if they
eventually settled their differences.

One of the many groups that are loosely identified as Plymouth Brethren,
probably.

[Peter Young]

On 9 Apr 2018 Mack A. Damia <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]

Post by Mack A. Damia
The Puritan lawmakers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony started the war
on Christmas in 1659 by issuing this edict outlawing the observance of
"For preventing disorders arising in several places within this
jurisdiction, by reason of some still observing such festivals as were
superstitiously kept in other countries, to the great dishonor of God
and offence of others, it is therefore ordered by this Court and the
authority thereof, that whosoever shall be found observing any such
day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting,
or any other way, upon such accountants as aforesaid, every person so
offending shall pay of every such offence five shillings, as a fine to
the county."
I believe that the practice of not observing Christmas started in
England with the Puritans, but it was peculiar to their religion and
was not legislated.

In the Wikipedia article on Oliver Cromwell, there is this: "At the
Whitehall conference of December 1655 he quoted from St. Paul's
Epistle to the Romans 10:12�15 on the need to send Christian preachers
to the Jews. Cromwell's long-term religious motive for readmitting the
Jews to England should not be doubted; after all, he was serious
enough to ban Christmas as a pagan festival."

That was what we were taught in history classes at school.

Peter.

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Peter Young
[snip]

Post by Mack A. Damia
The Puritan lawmakers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony started the war
on Christmas in 1659 by issuing this edict outlawing the observance of
"For preventing disorders arising in several places within this
jurisdiction, by reason of some still observing such festivals as were
superstitiously kept in other countries, to the great dishonor of God
and offence of others, it is therefore ordered by this Court and the
authority thereof, that whosoever shall be found observing any such
day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting,
or any other way, upon such accountants as aforesaid, every person so
offending shall pay of every such offence five shillings, as a fine to
the county."
I believe that the practice of not observing Christmas started in
England with the Puritans, but it was peculiar to their religion and
was not legislated.

In the Wikipedia article on Oliver Cromwell, there is this: "At the
Whitehall conference of December 1655 he quoted from St. Paul's
Epistle to the Romans 10:12?5 on the need to send Christian preachers
to the Jews. Cromwell's long-term religious motive for readmitting the
Jews to England should not be doubted; after all, he was serious
enough to ban Christmas as a pagan festival."
That was what we were taught in history classes at school.

I think it was more of a slap-in-the-face to Roman Catholics and the
papacy.

During the second half of the 16th Century, there had been a concerted
attack by Protestants against the Roman church for their intention to
raise the status, respect and elevation of the Virgin Mary's
association with Christmas.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Jerry Friedman
I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year.

"Season's greetings" has been around for as long as I remember, so I
am doubtful that it started for any reason like that. (Wikipedia
tells me that it's the name of a 1980 Alan Ayckbourn play and a 1959
Perry Como album.) Perhaps it was just "elegant variation" on
Christmas cards.

-- Richard

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Jerry Friedman
I think the justification for "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays"
is that Jews celebrate Hanukkah, some black people celebrate Kwanzaa
now, and most people celebrate the New Year.

"Season's greetings" has been around for as long as I remember, so I
am doubtful that it started for any reason like that. (Wikipedia
tells me that it's the name of a 1980 Alan Ayckbourn play and a 1959
Perry Como album.) Perhaps it was just "elegant variation" on
Christmas cards.

Tis the season to be jolly .... 1862

'Compliments of the season' seems to have been pretty common for
a number of feast days by the early 19th Century.

[Lewis]

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith required.

More PC in the USA: Recognizing other faiths and beliefs. Younger
people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings. Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

Christmas has always been primarily a secular holiday and not even a
particularly major one. That didn't really start to change until after
The Restoration, and really got into full swing in the 19th century,
with Queen Victoria and her German traditions, aided by _A Christmas
Carol_ and the rise of advertising.

There's very little of Christmas in Shakespeare, for example; a couple
of lines and the title Twelfth Night and that's about it, and Twelfth
Night, despite being set at the end of Christmas, has nothing to do with
Christmas. (In fact, I'd guess the majority of people who are familiar
enough with Twelfth Night to recognize it as a Shakespearean play would
not be able to explain the title.)

The major holiday on the Christian calendar was always Easter.

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Lewis

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" works for me.

That wouldn't work here, because we don't use "holidays" in that
way.

I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.
Bank holidays?

Yes, various days including Christmas Day are holidays, but we
don't use the word to refer to the time of year.
We use "holiday" most often for what I think you would usually call a
"vacation" (think Cliff Richard - we're all going on a summer
holiday), and "happy holiday" sounds like you're wishing someone a
pleasant trip to somewhere sunny. "Happy holidays" (plural) just
sounds odd.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, "Holidays" is from "Holy Days".

"Happy Holy Days" doesn't sound any better... and

Post by Mack A. Damia
I figure it covers all the faiths that celebrate at that time of the
year.

Most of the rest of us celebrate Christmas too. No faith required.

More PC in the USA: Recognizing other faiths and beliefs. Younger
people with contentious ideas tend to get shirty about it.

Over here, "Christmas" tends simply to be the term for the annual
mid-winter celebration and junketings. Widely used by members of all
faiths and none.

Christmas has always been primarily a secular holiday and not even a
particularly major one. That didn't really start to change until after
The Restoration, and really got into full swing in the 19th century,
with Queen Victoria and her German traditions, aided by _A Christmas
Carol_ and the rise of advertising.
There's very little of Christmas in Shakespeare, for example; a couple
of lines and the title Twelfth Night and that's about it, and Twelfth
Night, despite being set at the end of Christmas, has nothing to do with
Christmas. (In fact, I'd guess the majority of people who are familiar
enough with Twelfth Night to recognize it as a Shakespearean play would
not be able to explain the title.)
The major holiday on the Christian calendar was always Easter.

The Paston Letters describe non-trivial Christmas merry-making
in Jolly Old England a century or more before Shakespeare.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 07 Apr 2018 15:22:38 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Janet
@gmail.com says...

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
For a few months I've been getting the email list of the English Spelling
Society (which used to be the Simplified Spelling Society), because I had
to sign up for it in order to view its archive, which I found cited somewhere
for a claim that in 1940 G B Shaw had included "ghoti" in his Christmas
post card (was that a thing?)

Of course it was. There are websites that offer 1940s Christmas
postcards for sale to collectors.
https://www.etsy.com/market/1940s_christmas_card
One source says the holiday postcard was the brainchild of Thomas
Shorrock - Leith, Scotland - when started producing such cards in the
1840s. Sir Henry Cole, later the first director of London's Victoria
and Albert Museum, sent out 1,000 holiday cards saying "Merry
Christmas and a Happy New Year to You" in 1843.
The custom is still in practice, and hundreds of thousands of
Christmas postcards - now often with a family photograph used instead
of an artist's work - are sent out every year. Much simpler to attach
a stamp, address, and mail than to stuff a card into an envelope.
$22.89 for 500 at GotPrint.com. Room on the address side for a short
personalization.
obAUE: Surprising, to me, is the wording on Cole's card. Not "Happy
Christmas...", but "Merry Christmas...".

" Merry Christmas" (not happy) is a standard greeting on UK Xmas cards.
Happy is used on cards with birthday, anniversary and Easter greetings
Janet

"A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year".

It's my impression that Brits say "Happy Christmas" when wishing
others a good holiday where Americans say "Merry Christmas" in doing
so.
Not on cards, but in personal exchanges.
Am I wrong?

I _think_ so - at least in my experience.

In a verbal exchange, it would be usual to wish someone "Merry
Christmas" - but "Have a good Christmas" is also fairly common as is
"Happy Christmas"

[Jerry Friedman]

[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

[*] First-person "your".

Speaking of spelling, how did Halle pronounce his surname? If he'd been
the owner of a department store in Cleveland, it would have rhymed with
"valley".

[the Omrud]

Speaking of spelling, how did Halle pronounce his surname?  If he'd been
the owner of a department store in Cleveland, it would have rhymed with
"valley".

He started life as Karl Halle, a German. In France, where he lived for
12 years, he used the name Karl Hallé, and finally switched to Charles
Hallé after moving to England. Take your pick of pronunciations.

[Jerry Friedman]

Speaking of spelling, how did Halle pronounce his surname?  If he'd
been the owner of a department store in Cleveland, it would have
rhymed with "valley".

He started life as Karl Halle, a German.  In France, where he lived for
12 years, he used the name Karl Hallé, and finally switched to Charles
Hallé after moving to England.  Take your pick of pronunciations.

Ahem. I was talking about the late Morris Halle.

[the Omrud]

Speaking of spelling, how did Halle pronounce his surname?  If he'd
been the owner of a department store in Cleveland, it would have
rhymed with "valley".

He started life as Karl Halle, a German.  In France, where he lived
for 12 years, he used the name Karl Hallé, and finally switched to
Charles Hallé after moving to England.  Take your pick of pronunciations.

Ahem.  I was talking about the late Morris Halle.

Oh. Well, I don't know that either.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Speaking of spelling, how did Halle pronounce his surname?  If he'd
been the owner of a department store in Cleveland, it would have
rhymed with "valley".

He started life as Karl Halle, a German.  In France, where he lived for
12 years, he used the name Karl Hallé, and finally switched to Charles
Hallé after moving to England.  Take your pick of pronunciations.

Ahem. I was talking about the late Morris Halle.

I think he's orchestrating something.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where those two words could be
confused.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where those two words could be
confused.

I'm not sure that the future of English spelling should depend on the
limits of your imagination!

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where those two words could be
confused.

I'm not sure that the future of English spelling should depend on the
limits of your imagination!

If you read what I wrote carefully, you'll notice that I said I wasn't
in favor of changing those spellings, and of course the future of
English spelling doesn't depend on your or my preferences.

Also, "gage" for "gauge" has been in use for decades. Does it in fact
result in confusion, as you said? Maybe neither of us has any evidence
for our claims.

[Janet]

In article <pa80uj$3ka$***@news.albasani.net>, ***@yahoo.com
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where those two words could be
confused.

I'm not sure that the future of English spelling should depend on the
limits of your imagination!

If you read what I wrote carefully, you'll notice that I said I wasn't
in favor of changing those spellings, and of course the future of
English spelling doesn't depend on your or my preferences.
Also, "gage" for "gauge" has been in use for decades. Does it in fact
result in confusion, as you said? Maybe neither of us has any evidence
for our claims.

I thought you were talking about plums. The only kind of gage I know
is green.

Janet

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where those two words could be
confused.

I'm not sure that the future of English spelling should depend on the
limits of your imagination!

If you read what I wrote carefully, you'll notice that I said I wasn't
in favor of changing those spellings, and of course the future of
English spelling doesn't depend on your or my preferences.
Also, "gage" for "gauge" has been in use for decades. Does it in fact
result in confusion, as you said? Maybe neither of us has any evidence
for our claims.

I thought you were talking about plums. The only kind of gage I know
is green.

Oh, that's why Madrigal said "plum example". We have green plums here,
but I don't think we usually call them greengages. I know the word from
British literature (and for a long time I left it as one of those
mysterious British agriculture and nature words--sloe, damson, campion,
cornflower, darnel, stoat, down, fell, wold, shingle...).

I'll bet you would have figured out something like "Modern wind tunnels
typically use electrical strain gages to determine forces on the model."
Especially as the page repeats "gage" many times.

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/tunstraingage.html

The other "gage" I was thinking of means "pledge", especially of a
knight's willingness to fight--"throw down a gage".

[Janet]

In article <paalnn$m5i$***@news.albasani.net>, ***@yahoo.com
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where those two words could be
confused.

I'm not sure that the future of English spelling should depend on the
limits of your imagination!

If you read what I wrote carefully, you'll notice that I said I wasn't
in favor of changing those spellings, and of course the future of
English spelling doesn't depend on your or my preferences.
Also, "gage" for "gauge" has been in use for decades. Does it in fact
result in confusion, as you said? Maybe neither of us has any evidence
for our claims.

I thought you were talking about plums. The only kind of gage I know
is green.

Oh, that's why Madrigal said "plum example". We have green plums here,
but I don't think we usually call them greengages. I know the word from
British literature (and for a long time I left it as one of those
mysterious British agriculture and nature words--sloe, damson, campion,
cornflower, darnel, stoat, down, fell, wold, shingle...).

Never heard "darnel", are you sure that's one of ours?

Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll bet you would have figured out something like "Modern wind tunnels
typically use electrical strain gages to determine forces on the model."
Especially as the page repeats "gage" many times.

Well, yes, just as I recognise folti speling.

Post by Jerry Friedman
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/tunstraingage.html
The other "gage" I was thinking of means "pledge", especially of a
knight's willingness to fight--"throw down a gage".

or. "engagement". She's engaged to be married. They got engaged at
the weekend.

Janet

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where those two words could be
confused.

I'm not sure that the future of English spelling should depend on the
limits of your imagination!

If you read what I wrote carefully, you'll notice that I said I wasn't
in favor of changing those spellings, and of course the future of
English spelling doesn't depend on your or my preferences.
Also, "gage" for "gauge" has been in use for decades. Does it in fact
result in confusion, as you said? Maybe neither of us has any evidence
for our claims.

I thought you were talking about plums. The only kind of gage I know
is green.

Oh, that's why Madrigal said "plum example". We have green plums here,
but I don't think we usually call them greengages. I know the word from
British literature (and for a long time I left it as one of those
mysterious British agriculture and nature words--sloe, damson, campion,
cornflower, darnel, stoat, down, fell, wold, shingle...).

Never heard "darnel", are you sure that's one of ours?

It is. It's something you almost certainly see every day ... rye grass.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where those two words could be
confused.

I'm not sure that the future of English spelling should depend on the
limits of your imagination!

If you read what I wrote carefully, you'll notice that I said I wasn't
in favor of changing those spellings, and of course the future of
English spelling doesn't depend on your or my preferences.
Also, "gage" for "gauge" has been in use for decades. Does it in fact
result in confusion, as you said? Maybe neither of us has any evidence
for our claims.

I thought you were talking about plums. The only kind of gage I know
is green.

Oh, that's why Madrigal said "plum example". We have green plums here,
but I don't think we usually call them greengages. I know the word from
British literature (and for a long time I left it as one of those
mysterious British agriculture and nature words--sloe, damson, campion,
cornflower, darnel, stoat, down, fell, wold, shingle...).

Never heard "darnel", are you sure that's one of ours?

It is. It's something you almost certainly see every day ... rye grass.

Ah!
I thought it might be an alternative form of "dingle".

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Janet
says...

...

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Janet

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet

Post by Jerry Friedman
Also, "gage" for "gauge" has been in use for decades. Does it in fact
result in confusion, as you said? Maybe neither of us has any evidence
for our claims.

I thought you were talking about plums. The only kind of gage I know
is green.

Oh, that's why Madrigal said "plum example". We have green plums here,
but I don't think we usually call them greengages. I know the word from
British literature (and for a long time I left it as one of those
mysterious British agriculture and nature words--sloe, damson, campion,
cornflower, darnel, stoat, down, fell, wold, shingle...).

Never heard "darnel", are you sure that's one of ours?

It is. It's something you almost certainly see every day ... rye grass.

Ah!
I thought it might be an alternative form of "dingle".

That's another one.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Janet
says...

...

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Janet

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet

Post by Jerry Friedman
Also, "gage" for "gauge" has been in use for decades. Does it in fact
result in confusion, as you said? Maybe neither of us has any evidence
for our claims.

I thought you were talking about plums. The only kind of gage I know
is green.

Oh, that's why Madrigal said "plum example". We have green plums here,
but I don't think we usually call them greengages. I know the word from
British literature (and for a long time I left it as one of those
mysterious British agriculture and nature words--sloe, damson, campion,
cornflower, darnel, stoat, down, fell, wold, shingle...).

Never heard "darnel", are you sure that's one of ours?

It is. It's something you almost certainly see every day ... rye grass.

Ah!
I thought it might be an alternative form of "dingle".

That's another one.

Where do you stand on scowles?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scowle

(One of my Great Grandfathers was born in one, apparently.)

[Quinn C]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where those two words could be
confused.

I'm not sure that the future of English spelling should depend on the
limits of your imagination!

If you read what I wrote carefully, you'll notice that I said I wasn't
in favor of changing those spellings, and of course the future of
English spelling doesn't depend on your or my preferences.
Also, "gage" for "gauge" has been in use for decades. Does it in fact
result in confusion, as you said? Maybe neither of us has any evidence
for our claims.

I thought you were talking about plums. The only kind of gage I know
is green.

Oh, that's why Madrigal said "plum example". We have green plums here,
but I don't think we usually call them greengages. I know the word from
British literature (and for a long time I left it as one of those
mysterious British agriculture and nature words--sloe, damson, campion,
cornflower, darnel, stoat, down, fell, wold, shingle...).

Never heard "darnel", are you sure that's one of ours?

It is. It's something you almost certainly see every day ... rye grass.

If Wikipedia is to be trusted in the matter, it's strictly speaking
just one species of ryegrass, the darnel ryegrass, where perennial aka
English ryegrass is even more common.

The plum name seems to be after a Baronet, so sadly, not a fourth Earl
to add to the culinary inventory.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
[In memoriam]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross
Halle was certainly a leading figure in generative phonology, as it
developed alongside Chomsky's syntax. I'm not aware that he had
anything to say about English usage, though. He did once make an
ill-advised remark about how English spelling was a "near-optimal system"
or words to that effect, which might cause some a.u.e.rs to choke on
their breakfast cereal.

There aren't any "spelling reform"ers here, are there?

You don't have to be a "spelling reform"er to realize that English
is a long way from optimal. It could use a lot of improving -- "moderate"
spelling reform, which James D.McCawley, of blessed memory, was in favour of.
Not overthrowing the system, but eliminating a lot of exceptions to the
rules that do exist.

...
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of your
[*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even some
unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline" haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how well-intentioned
changes merely result in further confusion with pre-existing spellings of
other words.

I find it hard to imagine a situation where those two words could be
confused.

I'm not sure that the future of English spelling should depend on the
limits of your imagination!

If you read what I wrote carefully, you'll notice that I said I wasn't
in favor of changing those spellings, and of course the future of
English spelling doesn't depend on your or my preferences.
Also, "gage" for "gauge" has been in use for decades. Does it in fact
result in confusion, as you said? Maybe neither of us has any evidence
for our claims.

I thought you were talking about plums. The only kind of gage I know
is green.

Oh, that's why Madrigal said "plum example". We have green plums here,
but I don't think we usually call them greengages. I know the word from
British literature (and for a long time I left it as one of those
mysterious British agriculture and nature words--sloe, damson, campion,
cornflower, darnel, stoat, down, fell, wold, shingle...).

Never heard "darnel", are you sure that's one of ours?

Of some of us, apparently.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/darnel

darnel
noun
A Eurasian ryegrass.
Genus Lolium, family Gramineae: several species
Origin
Middle English: of unknown origin; apparently related to French
(Walloon dialect) darnelle.

Post by Janet

Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll bet you would have figured out something like "Modern wind tunnels
typically use electrical strain gages to determine forces on the model."
Especially as the page repeats "gage" many times.

Well, yes, just as I recognise folti speling.

Post by Jerry Friedman
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/tunstraingage.html
The other "gage" I was thinking of means "pledge", especially of a
knight's willingness to fight--"throw down a gage".

or. "engagement". She's engaged to be married. They got engaged at
the weekend.
Janet
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Jerry Friedman
Heck, you can recognize that English spelling is far from optimal
without being in favor of the slightest spelling reform, because of
your [*] conservatism in such matters and your awareness that even
some unproblematic attempts such as "gage" (gauge) and "aline"
haven't done well.

How is 'gage' unproblematic? It's a plum example of how
well-intentioned changes merely result in further confusion with
pre-existing spellings of other words.

That made me go and look it up. Apparently there's an existing word
"gage" that's so old-fashioned that I'd never heard of it.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.

Appreciation from two years ago at

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-linguistics-060515-105131

He seems to have been an interesting character--very good for a lot of
his students, but I don't know whether I could have dealt with him.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.

He only was responsible for the creation of modern phonology, with his
unthinking denial of the utility of the phoneme concept. For 70 years,
his followers (including Chomsky, who, however, fortunately, abandoned
phonology after the misguided Chomsky & Halle *Sound Pattern of English*
of 1968) have been using phonemes while either pretending they aren't
or avoiding the matter entirely.

The LSA was in Boston in 2013 (can it have been a coincidence?), and his 90th
birthday was celebrated with a session on the history of linguistics at MIT
in the NAAHoLS -- North American Association for the History of Linguistics.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.

There is a typically nasty response to this by HH at sci.lang.

[Colonel Edmund J. Burke]

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.
bill

Okay. So...a linguist is good with his/her tongue?
Just answer the question...

[David]

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.
bill

Okay. So...a linguist is good with his/her tongue?
Just answer the question...

did you try the new atari hdmi game?

[Colonel Edmund J. Burke]

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.
bill

Okay.  So...a linguist is good with his/her tongue?
Just answer the question...
did you try the new atari hdmi game?

It's in the closet. A closet looks like your room but bigger.

[David]

Post by Colonel Edmund J. Burke

Post by b***@shaw.ca
I see over in alt.obituaries that a linguist named Morris Halle
has died at the age of 94.
I gather that he was the head of linguistics at MIT and arranged
a position there for Noam Chomsky. MIT's news release credits
the pair of them with "groundbreaking research" that helped
create modern linguistics.
I don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion, but I thought
this might be of interest in aue.
bill

Okay. So...a linguist is good with his/her tongue?
Just answer the question...
did you try the new atari hdmi game?

It's in the closet. A closet looks like your room but bigger.

At Pythian Manor West I had one.