Discussion:
NZ accent?
(too old to reply)
Quinn C
2017-05-18 13:07:58 UTC
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Raw Message
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.

This podcast:
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.4093348/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>

is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.

If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
can also listen from here:

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.4093348

My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.

It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
--
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)
David Kleinecke
2017-05-18 17:01:24 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.4093348/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>
is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.
If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.4093348
My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.
It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
Thirty years ago when I visited NZ I didn't notice any
problems with speech. I wasn't in a linguist frame of mind
and made no observations. If you had asked me when I came
back what NZ dialect was like I would have said they just
talk like everybody else.

Obtuse of me - but at least I had no problems.
Pavel Svinchnik
2017-05-19 01:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.4093348/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>
is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.
If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.4093348
My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.
It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
Thirty years ago when I visited NZ I didn't notice any
problems with speech. I wasn't in a linguist frame of mind
and made no observations. If you had asked me when I came
back what NZ dialect was like I would have said they just
talk like everybody else.
Obtuse of me - but at least I had no problems.
I skied in NZ in 1991 and didn't notice any accent from the locals, although the Australians who were skiing there had a very noticeable accent.

Paul

Mid-west US English speaker
s***@gmail.com
2017-05-19 01:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pavel Svinchnik
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.4093348/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>
is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.
If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.4093348
My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.
It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
Thirty years ago when I visited NZ I didn't notice any
problems with speech. I wasn't in a linguist frame of mind
and made no observations. If you had asked me when I came
back what NZ dialect was like I would have said they just
talk like everybody else.
Obtuse of me - but at least I had no problems.
I skied in NZ in 1991 and didn't notice any accent from the locals, although the Australians who were skiing there had a very noticeable accent.
I haven't skiied in NZ (nor in SoCal nor in Oregon, except for some watery stuff),
but I have listened to the safety briefing videos from Air NZ,
and the accent was very noticeable; similar to Strine but not the same
(perhaps a bit brighter in color than Paul Hogan,
but I'm less sure it's brighter than Steve Irwin's speech was).

/dps "okay, I did make a snowboard flop down a SoCal slope"
Horace LaBadie
2017-05-18 17:29:47 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.40933
48/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>
is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.
If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.409334
8
My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.
It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.

<http://www.annabel-langbein.com/>
Quinn C
2017-05-18 20:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.40933
48/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>
is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.
If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.409334
8
My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.
It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
I didn't find her particularly hard to understand, but I continued
noticing her accent during the whole interview, it didn't fade
into the background. One explanation would be that she was trying
to be easier to understand for them foreigners.
--
A chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell.
Peter Moylan in alt.usage.english
Horace LaBadie
2017-05-18 21:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.40
933
48/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>
is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.
If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.409
334
8
My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.
It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
I didn't find her particularly hard to understand, but I continued
noticing her accent during the whole interview, it didn't fade
into the background. One explanation would be that she was trying
to be easier to understand for them foreigners.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate for a
chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
Ross
2017-05-18 21:28:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.40
933
48/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>
is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.
If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.409
334
8
My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.
It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
I didn't find her particularly hard to understand, but I continued
noticing her accent during the whole interview, it didn't fade
into the background. One explanation would be that she was trying
to be easier to understand for them foreigners.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate for a
chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
I've never heard of this merger, in NZ or anywhere else. It's true that
NZEng speakers shift the vowels of "better" and "batter" in a way that
could cause confusion for others. But I don't think "butter" would be
involved, though for extreme NZ accents there could be "butter"/"bitter"
confusion. And I'm pretty sure there is no merger at any point.
Robert Bannister
2017-05-19 00:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.40
933
48/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>
is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.
If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.409
334
8
My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.
It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
I didn't find her particularly hard to understand, but I continued
noticing her accent during the whole interview, it didn't fade
into the background. One explanation would be that she was trying
to be easier to understand for them foreigners.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate for a
chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
I've never heard of this merger, in NZ or anywhere else. It's true that
NZEng speakers shift the vowels of "better" and "batter" in a way that
could cause confusion for others. But I don't think "butter" would be
involved, though for extreme NZ accents there could be "butter"/"bitter"
confusion. And I'm pretty sure there is no merger at any point.
Agreed.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Jack Campin
2017-05-19 00:24:18 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Horace LaBadie
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate
for a chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
I don't get it. Those vowels, as pronounced in Kiwi English, are
clearly distinguishable to any other New Zealander. It isn't her
that's got a merger, it's some ignorant American listeners. Who
wouldn't be in the kitchen with her anyway.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Tony Cooper
2017-05-19 01:03:14 UTC
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Raw Message
On Fri, 19 May 2017 01:24:18 +0100, Jack Campin
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Horace LaBadie
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate
for a chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
I don't get it. Those vowels, as pronounced in Kiwi English, are
clearly distinguishable to any other New Zealander. It isn't her
that's got a merger, it's some ignorant American listeners. Who
wouldn't be in the kitchen with her anyway.
Why is an American "ignorant" if he has a problem understanding a Kiwi
accent? Not being used to an accent is not a sign of ignorance. Just
unfamiliarity.

And, Langbein's "Free Range Cook" television show is carried by PBS in
the US, and the natural place to watch a televised cooking show is in
the kitchen. She could be with me in the kitchen tomorrow at 6:30 PM,
9:30 PM, or 3:30 AM coming to me on WUCF. Not likely, but possible.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jack Campin
2017-05-19 09:04:34 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Horace LaBadie
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate
for a chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
I don't get it. Those vowels, as pronounced in Kiwi English, are
clearly distinguishable to any other New Zealander. It isn't her
that's got a merger, it's some ignorant American listeners. Who
wouldn't be in the kitchen with her anyway.
Why is an American "ignorant" if he has a problem understanding
a Kiwi accent? Not being used to an accent is not a sign of
ignorance. Just unfamiliarity.
Saying the vowels have "merged" is not just ignorance, it's
aggressive ignorance. It's comparable to insisting that all
Chinese words distinguished by tone are really the same.

The neutral way to put it is to say that American speakers
typically can't distinguish some of the vowels used in NZ
English. Which would make it a bad idea to get a Kiwi to
record announcements for a US airport, but Kiwis don't have
a problem understanding each other.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-19 11:57:32 UTC
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Raw Message
On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 5:04:39 AM UTC-4, Jack Campin wrote:

That seems highly unlikely, since he is now criticising the very usage he here claims to have written.
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Horace LaBadie
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate
for a chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
I don't get it. Those vowels, as pronounced in Kiwi English, are
clearly distinguishable to any other New Zealander. It isn't her
that's got a merger, it's some ignorant American listeners. Who
wouldn't be in the kitchen with her anyway.
Why is an American "ignorant" if he has a problem understanding
a Kiwi accent? Not being used to an accent is not a sign of
ignorance. Just unfamiliarity.
Saying the vowels have "merged" is not just ignorance, it's
aggressive ignorance. It's comparable to insisting that all
Chinese words distinguished by tone are really the same.
The neutral way to put it is to say that American speakers
typically can't distinguish some of the vowels used in NZ
English. Which would make it a bad idea to get a Kiwi to
record announcements for a US airport, but Kiwis don't have
a problem understanding each other.
One wonders whom the dour Scot is chastising, since he removed all the attributions.
Richard Tobin
2017-05-19 12:14:57 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
One wonders whom the dour Scot is chastising, since he removed all the attributions.
Why do you care? Does everything have to be ad hominem?

-- Richard
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-05-19 12:36:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
One wonders whom the dour Scot is chastising, since he removed all the attributions.
Why do you care? Does everything have to be ad hominem?
If it's Jack Campin he's calling a dour Scot, in his weird idea of a
witticism, he's wrong on at least one count: I don't find anything dour
about Jack, and I don't think he's a Scot. Living in Scotland doesn't
make him a Scot.

But yes, I think with PTD everything does have to be ad hominem.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-19 13:56:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
One wonders whom the dour Scot is chastising, since he removed all the attributions.
Why do you care? Does everything have to be ad hominem?
If it's Jack Campin he's calling a dour Scot, in his weird idea of a
It's a cliche, or maybe you're not aware of it, and the word was discussed just
yesterday, making its use relevant to the group.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
witticism, he's wrong on at least one count: I don't find anything dour
about Jack, and I don't think he's a Scot. Living in Scotland doesn't
make him a Scot.
What reason has Jack Campin posted to suggest he isn't a Scot? Compare Tough
Guy, who goes back and forth on claiming to be English or Scottish as the
discussion strikes him.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
But yes, I think with PTD everything does have to be ad hominem.
Only because you don't read most of what I write.
Jack Campin
2017-05-19 18:50:32 UTC
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Raw Message
I don't find anything dour about Jack, and I don't think he's
a Scot. Living in Scotland doesn't make him a Scot.
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship. I go along with that and I think all nations should
do the same. Someone interested in linguistic matters may want more
detail about the people they're trying to describe, but an ethnic
label isn't very relevant for that either.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-05-19 20:13:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Campin
I don't find anything dour about Jack, and I don't think he's
a Scot. Living in Scotland doesn't make him a Scot.
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish,
Interesting. I didn't know that.
Post by Jack Campin
and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship. I go along with that and I think all nations should
do the same. Someone interested in linguistic matters may want more
detail about the people they're trying to describe, but an ethnic
label isn't very relevant for that either.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
--
athel
Richard Tobin
2017-05-20 09:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.

-- Richard
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-20 13:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry? In the case
of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel sort of thing.
Jack Campin
2017-05-20 16:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.

I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.

The main problem would be people coming from England, as they far
outnumber all other immigrants, and if Scotland manages to escape
the UK and stay in the EU we could expect to get a LOT of refugees,
comparable to a wartime population movement. Most people on either
side of the border have a known ancestor from the other side. A
pre-prepared dogmatic policy isn't going to do it, no matter what
happens.

The obvious pragmatic line would be to tell the native-born English
to bugger off and to take as many Poles as possible, since the Poles
are mostly young, educated, employable, on the English political
establishment's shit list, and grateful for any option open to them.

And if it's going to take special legislation to stop Trump fleeing
here into exile claiming immigrant status from his mother, the
Scottish Parliament will be assembling the relevant committee before
he gets off the plane.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-05-20 17:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
The main problem would be people coming from England, as they far
outnumber all other immigrants, and if Scotland manages to escape
the UK and stay in the EU we could expect to get a LOT of refugees,
comparable to a wartime population movement. Most people on either
side of the border have a known ancestor from the other side. A
pre-prepared dogmatic policy isn't going to do it, no matter what
happens.
The obvious pragmatic line would be to tell the native-born English
to bugger off and to take as many Poles as possible, since the Poles
are mostly young, educated, employable, on the English political
establishment's shit list, and grateful for any option open to them.
And if it's going to take special legislation to stop Trump fleeing
here into exile claiming immigrant status from his mother, the
Scottish Parliament will be assembling the relevant committee before
he gets off the plane.
There is also the likelihood that there will be difficulties for
obviously-Scots people living elsewhere in Britain/UK. Their legal
status might be fine but the attitude of the public could be difficult,
as was the case with the very many Irish people living in Britain
following the departure of the Irish Free State from the UK. Rightly or
wrongly, many English people, in particular, saw them as foreigners,
citizens of a former part of the UK that was hostile to the British.
They were discriminated against to some extent.

As for Donald Trump, if he takes up residence in Scotland the government
of the remainder of the UK could send him a bill to pay for the
necessary border wall between England and Scotland.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-20 19:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
The main problem would be people coming from England, as they far
outnumber all other immigrants, and if Scotland manages to escape
the UK and stay in the EU we could expect to get a LOT of refugees,
comparable to a wartime population movement. Most people on either
side of the border have a known ancestor from the other side. A
pre-prepared dogmatic policy isn't going to do it, no matter what
happens.
The obvious pragmatic line would be to tell the native-born English
to bugger off and to take as many Poles as possible, since the Poles
are mostly young, educated, employable, on the English political
establishment's shit list, and grateful for any option open to them.
And if it's going to take special legislation to stop Trump fleeing
here into exile claiming immigrant status from his mother, the
Scottish Parliament will be assembling the relevant committee before
he gets off the plane.
There is also the likelihood that there will be difficulties for
obviously-Scots people living elsewhere in Britain/UK. Their legal
status might be fine but the attitude of the public could be difficult,
as was the case with the very many Irish people living in Britain
following the departure of the Irish Free State from the UK. Rightly or
wrongly, many English people, in particular, saw them as foreigners,
citizens of a former part of the UK that was hostile to the British.
They were discriminated against to some extent.
As for Donald Trump, if he takes up residence in Scotland the government
of the remainder of the UK could send him a bill to pay for the
necessary border wall between England and Scotland.
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
Richard Tobin
2017-05-20 19:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
As for Donald Trump, if he takes up residence in Scotland the government
of the remainder of the UK could send him a bill to pay for the
necessary border wall between England and Scotland.
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
I think the English government might take exception to that border
being restored.

-- Richard
Sam Plusnet
2017-05-20 20:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
The main problem would be people coming from England, as they far
outnumber all other immigrants, and if Scotland manages to escape
the UK and stay in the EU we could expect to get a LOT of refugees,
comparable to a wartime population movement. Most people on either
side of the border have a known ancestor from the other side. A
pre-prepared dogmatic policy isn't going to do it, no matter what
happens.
The obvious pragmatic line would be to tell the native-born English
to bugger off and to take as many Poles as possible, since the Poles
are mostly young, educated, employable, on the English political
establishment's shit list, and grateful for any option open to them.
And if it's going to take special legislation to stop Trump fleeing
here into exile claiming immigrant status from his mother, the
Scottish Parliament will be assembling the relevant committee before
he gets off the plane.
There is also the likelihood that there will be difficulties for
obviously-Scots people living elsewhere in Britain/UK. Their legal
status might be fine but the attitude of the public could be difficult,
as was the case with the very many Irish people living in Britain
following the departure of the Irish Free State from the UK. Rightly or
wrongly, many English people, in particular, saw them as foreigners,
citizens of a former part of the UK that was hostile to the British.
They were discriminated against to some extent.
As for Donald Trump, if he takes up residence in Scotland the government
of the remainder of the UK could send him a bill to pay for the
necessary border wall between England and Scotland.
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
No.
He failed to anticipate quite where the 21st Century border would be.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-05-20 20:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
The main problem would be people coming from England, as they far
outnumber all other immigrants, and if Scotland manages to escape
the UK and stay in the EU we could expect to get a LOT of refugees,
comparable to a wartime population movement. Most people on either
side of the border have a known ancestor from the other side. A
pre-prepared dogmatic policy isn't going to do it, no matter what
happens.
The obvious pragmatic line would be to tell the native-born English
to bugger off and to take as many Poles as possible, since the Poles
are mostly young, educated, employable, on the English political
establishment's shit list, and grateful for any option open to them.
And if it's going to take special legislation to stop Trump fleeing
here into exile claiming immigrant status from his mother, the
Scottish Parliament will be assembling the relevant committee before
he gets off the plane.
There is also the likelihood that there will be difficulties for
obviously-Scots people living elsewhere in Britain/UK. Their legal
status might be fine but the attitude of the public could be difficult,
as was the case with the very many Irish people living in Britain
following the departure of the Irish Free State from the UK. Rightly or
wrongly, many English people, in particular, saw them as foreigners,
citizens of a former part of the UK that was hostile to the British.
They were discriminated against to some extent.
As for Donald Trump, if he takes up residence in Scotland the government
of the remainder of the UK could send him a bill to pay for the
necessary border wall between England and Scotland.
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
No.
He failed to anticipate quite where the 21st Century border would be.
Mr Antonius also got it wrong. His wall was much further North.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall

A new wall from the west end of Hadrian's to the east end of Antonius's
would be closer to the current border. It would, however, put Edinburgh
in England, which might please some Glaswegian's.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-05-20 21:04:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 20 May 2017 21:41:23 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
The main problem would be people coming from England, as they far
outnumber all other immigrants, and if Scotland manages to escape
the UK and stay in the EU we could expect to get a LOT of refugees,
comparable to a wartime population movement. Most people on either
side of the border have a known ancestor from the other side. A
pre-prepared dogmatic policy isn't going to do it, no matter what
happens.
The obvious pragmatic line would be to tell the native-born English
to bugger off and to take as many Poles as possible, since the Poles
are mostly young, educated, employable, on the English political
establishment's shit list, and grateful for any option open to them.
And if it's going to take special legislation to stop Trump fleeing
here into exile claiming immigrant status from his mother, the
Scottish Parliament will be assembling the relevant committee before
he gets off the plane.
There is also the likelihood that there will be difficulties for
obviously-Scots people living elsewhere in Britain/UK. Their legal
status might be fine but the attitude of the public could be difficult,
as was the case with the very many Irish people living in Britain
following the departure of the Irish Free State from the UK. Rightly or
wrongly, many English people, in particular, saw them as foreigners,
citizens of a former part of the UK that was hostile to the British.
They were discriminated against to some extent.
As for Donald Trump, if he takes up residence in Scotland the government
of the remainder of the UK could send him a bill to pay for the
necessary border wall between England and Scotland.
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
No.
He failed to anticipate quite where the 21st Century border would be.
Mr Antonius also got it wrong. His wall was much further North.
Apologies to him. He was Antoninus.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall
A new wall from the west end of Hadrian's to the east end of Antonius's
would be closer to the current border. It would, however, put Edinburgh
in England, which might please some Glaswegian's.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Quinn C
2017-05-21 12:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 20 May 2017 21:41:23 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
As for Donald Trump, if he takes up residence in Scotland the government
of the remainder of the UK could send him a bill to pay for the
necessary border wall between England and Scotland.
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
No.
He failed to anticipate quite where the 21st Century border would be.
Mr Antonius also got it wrong. His wall was much further North.
Apologies to him. He was Antoninus.
Let's hope for you that the correction arrived before he read it.
--
The trouble some people have being German, I thought,
I have being human.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.130
Janet
2017-05-21 10:27:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
[quoted text muted]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
No.
He failed to anticipate quite where the 21st Century border would be.
Mr Antonius also got it wrong. His wall was much further North.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall
A new wall from the west end of Hadrian's to the east end of Antonius's
would be closer to the current border. It would, however, put Edinburgh
in England, which might please some Glaswegian's.
It takes more than a wall to keep out invading apostrophes.

Janet.
Snidely
2017-05-25 06:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Janet
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
[quoted text muted]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
No.
He failed to anticipate quite where the 21st Century border would be.
Mr Antonius also got it wrong. His wall was much further North.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall
A new wall from the west end of Hadrian's to the east end of Antonius's
would be closer to the current border. It would, however, put Edinburgh
in England, which might please some Glaswegian's.
It takes more than a wall to keep out invading apostrophes.
They arrive by the groce.

/dps
--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm
Mark Brader
2017-05-25 08:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Snidely
Post by Janet
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
A new wall from the west end of Hadrian's to the east end of Antonius's
would be closer to the current border. It would, however, put Edinburgh
in England, which might please some Glaswegian's.
It takes more than a wall to keep out invading apostrophes.
They arrive by the groce.
Dozen't he (or she) make a good pun?
--
Mark Brader | "Of course, if you only see one movie this year,
***@vex.net | you're in the wrong newsgroup."
Toronto | --Chris Pierson, rec.arts.movies.past-films
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-05-25 10:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Snidely
Post by Janet
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
A new wall from the west end of Hadrian's to the east end of Antonius's
would be closer to the current border. It would, however, put Edinburgh
in England, which might please some Glaswegian's.
It takes more than a wall to keep out invading apostrophes.
They arrive by the groce.
Dozen't he (or she) make a good pun?
Yes, he (or she) squaws well there.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-05-20 20:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 20 May 2017 12:23:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
The main problem would be people coming from England, as they far
outnumber all other immigrants, and if Scotland manages to escape
the UK and stay in the EU we could expect to get a LOT of refugees,
comparable to a wartime population movement. Most people on either
side of the border have a known ancestor from the other side. A
pre-prepared dogmatic policy isn't going to do it, no matter what
happens.
The obvious pragmatic line would be to tell the native-born English
to bugger off and to take as many Poles as possible, since the Poles
are mostly young, educated, employable, on the English political
establishment's shit list, and grateful for any option open to them.
And if it's going to take special legislation to stop Trump fleeing
here into exile claiming immigrant status from his mother, the
Scottish Parliament will be assembling the relevant committee before
he gets off the plane.
There is also the likelihood that there will be difficulties for
obviously-Scots people living elsewhere in Britain/UK. Their legal
status might be fine but the attitude of the public could be difficult,
as was the case with the very many Irish people living in Britain
following the departure of the Irish Free State from the UK. Rightly or
wrongly, many English people, in particular, saw them as foreigners,
citizens of a former part of the UK that was hostile to the British.
They were discriminated against to some extent.
As for Donald Trump, if he takes up residence in Scotland the government
of the remainder of the UK could send him a bill to pay for the
necessary border wall between England and Scotland.
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
No.
There is a large chunk of England north of Hadrian's wall.

Anyway, Hadrian's wall would need major renovation to make it functional
again.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-21 03:28:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 20 May 2017 12:23:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
The main problem would be people coming from England, as they far
outnumber all other immigrants, and if Scotland manages to escape
the UK and stay in the EU we could expect to get a LOT of refugees,
comparable to a wartime population movement. Most people on either
side of the border have a known ancestor from the other side. A
pre-prepared dogmatic policy isn't going to do it, no matter what
happens.
The obvious pragmatic line would be to tell the native-born English
to bugger off and to take as many Poles as possible, since the Poles
are mostly young, educated, employable, on the English political
establishment's shit list, and grateful for any option open to them.
And if it's going to take special legislation to stop Trump fleeing
here into exile claiming immigrant status from his mother, the
Scottish Parliament will be assembling the relevant committee before
he gets off the plane.
There is also the likelihood that there will be difficulties for
obviously-Scots people living elsewhere in Britain/UK. Their legal
status might be fine but the attitude of the public could be difficult,
as was the case with the very many Irish people living in Britain
following the departure of the Irish Free State from the UK. Rightly or
wrongly, many English people, in particular, saw them as foreigners,
citizens of a former part of the UK that was hostile to the British.
They were discriminated against to some extent.
As for Donald Trump, if he takes up residence in Scotland the government
of the remainder of the UK could send him a bill to pay for the
necessary border wall between England and Scotland.
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
No.
There is a large chunk of England north of Hadrian's wall.
Anyway, Hadrian's wall would need major renovation to make it functional
again.
I see (as anticipated) that the only objections are coming from Englishpersons.
Janet
2017-05-21 10:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
The main problem would be people coming from England, as they far
outnumber all other immigrants, and if Scotland manages to escape
the UK and stay in the EU we could expect to get a LOT of refugees,
comparable to a wartime population movement. Most people on either
side of the border have a known ancestor from the other side. A
pre-prepared dogmatic policy isn't going to do it, no matter what
happens.
The obvious pragmatic line would be to tell the native-born English
to bugger off and to take as many Poles as possible, since the Poles
are mostly young, educated, employable, on the English political
establishment's shit list, and grateful for any option open to them.
And if it's going to take special legislation to stop Trump fleeing
here into exile claiming immigrant status from his mother, the
Scottish Parliament will be assembling the relevant committee before
he gets off the plane.
There is also the likelihood that there will be difficulties for
obviously-Scots people living elsewhere in Britain/UK. Their legal
status might be fine but the attitude of the public could be difficult,
as was the case with the very many Irish people living in Britain
following the departure of the Irish Free State from the UK. Rightly or
wrongly, many English people, in particular, saw them as foreigners,
citizens of a former part of the UK that was hostile to the British.
They were discriminated against to some extent.
As for Donald Trump, if he takes up residence in Scotland the government
of the remainder of the UK could send him a bill to pay for the
necessary border wall between England and Scotland.
Didn't Mr. Hadrian already take care of that?
It was put up in the wrong place for that.
Cheap labour from the EU, what more can you expect.

Janet.
Peter Moylan
2017-05-21 02:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
The main problem would be people coming from England, as they far
outnumber all other immigrants, and if Scotland manages to escape
the UK and stay in the EU we could expect to get a LOT of refugees,
comparable to a wartime population movement. Most people on either
side of the border have a known ancestor from the other side. A
pre-prepared dogmatic policy isn't going to do it, no matter what
happens.
The obvious pragmatic line would be to tell the native-born English
to bugger off and to take as many Poles as possible, since the Poles
are mostly young, educated, employable, on the English political
establishment's shit list, and grateful for any option open to them.
And if it's going to take special legislation to stop Trump fleeing
here into exile claiming immigrant status from his mother, the
Scottish Parliament will be assembling the relevant committee before
he gets off the plane.
You might find it a lot trickier to get rid of Wilkinson Sword.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2017-05-21 02:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
On a related question: has there been any talk of a union between
Scotland and Northern Ireland?

Pragmatically, it would be a lot easier to handle the borders if
Northern Ireland joined the Irish Republic, but I don't think that would
fly politically.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-05-21 10:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 21 May 2017 12:46:43 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship.
For people living in Scotland at the time. They propose that
citizenship for people elsewhere will depend on criteria of exactly
that sort.
What proportion of residents in Scotland are of Scottish ancestry?
In the case of independence, it might turn into an Arabs-in-Israel
sort of thing.
For residents, it's irrelevant what their ancestry is.
I don't think the SNP has committed to any firm policy on which
potential immigrants currently living elsewhere would get fast-
tracked to nationality because of who their parents were.
On a related question: has there been any talk of a union between
Scotland and Northern Ireland?
It has been mentioned but not as a serious possibility. I've only heard
it two or three times. It is the sort of thing that might be suggested
jokingly in chatter in a pub when all other topics have been exhausted.
Post by Peter Moylan
Pragmatically, it would be a lot easier to handle the borders if
Northern Ireland joined the Irish Republic, but I don't think that would
fly politically.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jack Campin
2017-05-21 11:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Moylan
On a related question: has there been any talk of a union between
Scotland and Northern Ireland?
Not really, but it would certainly make things easier if we were
both in the EU, and the implications of that have been discussed
a fair bit.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Jerry Friedman
2017-05-22 19:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 8:46:46 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:

[snip SNP]
Post by Peter Moylan
On a related question: has there been any talk of a union between
Scotland and Northern Ireland?
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/2016Dalriada.pdf
Post by Peter Moylan
Pragmatically, it would be a lot easier to handle the borders if
Northern Ireland joined the Irish Republic, but I don't think that would
fly politically.
Rather. (Can you say that to agree with a sentence that starts with
"I don't think"?)
--
Jerry Friedman
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-20 18:22:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Campin
I don't find anything dour about Jack, and I don't think he's
a Scot. Living in Scotland doesn't make him a Scot.
The SNP's policy on nationality is that everybody living in Scotland
is ipso facto Scottish, and when we get to be independent there will
be no criteria whatever of ancestry or biography to say who's entitled
to citizenship. I go along with that and I think all nations should
do the same. Someone interested in linguistic matters may want more
detail about the people they're trying to describe, but an ethnic
label isn't very relevant for that either.
As far as "citizenship" that is the best policy.

But it should not extend to ethnic identification.

That shoudl be essentially voluntary.
Post by Jack Campin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-19 13:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
One wonders whom the dour Scot is chastising, since he removed all the attributions.
Why do you care? Does everything have to be ad hominem?
Whoever wrote whatever the offending remark (deleted above) was may have forgotten
that he or she wrote it.
Peter Moylan
2017-05-19 12:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Horace LaBadie
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate
for a chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
I don't get it. Those vowels, as pronounced in Kiwi English, are
clearly distinguishable to any other New Zealander. It isn't her
that's got a merger, it's some ignorant American listeners. Who
wouldn't be in the kitchen with her anyway.
Why is an American "ignorant" if he has a problem understanding
a Kiwi accent? Not being used to an accent is not a sign of
ignorance. Just unfamiliarity.
Saying the vowels have "merged" is not just ignorance, it's
aggressive ignorance. It's comparable to insisting that all
Chinese words distinguished by tone are really the same.
The neutral way to put it is to say that American speakers
typically can't distinguish some of the vowels used in NZ
English. Which would make it a bad idea to get a Kiwi to
record announcements for a US airport, but Kiwis don't have
a problem understanding each other.
Not only that. Australians and New Zealanders have no trouble
understanding each other. The vowels are different, but they are
different in a consistent way.

Now and then there's confusion when a word in one dialect seems to match
a different word in the other dialect -- e.g. AusE "six" is pronounced
the same as NZE "sex" -- but you don't have to get very far into a
conversation before your brain is automatically doing the adjustment.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-19 14:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[he still didn't]
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Horace LaBadie
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate
for a chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
I don't get it. Those vowels, as pronounced in Kiwi English, are
clearly distinguishable to any other New Zealander. It isn't her
that's got a merger, it's some ignorant American listeners. Who
wouldn't be in the kitchen with her anyway.
Why is an American "ignorant" if he has a problem understanding
a Kiwi accent? Not being used to an accent is not a sign of
ignorance. Just unfamiliarity.
Saying the vowels have "merged" is not just ignorance, it's
aggressive ignorance. It's comparable to insisting that all
Chinese words distinguished by tone are really the same.
The neutral way to put it is to say that American speakers
typically can't distinguish some of the vowels used in NZ
English. Which would make it a bad idea to get a Kiwi to
record announcements for a US airport, but Kiwis don't have
a problem understanding each other.
Not only that. Australians and New Zealanders have no trouble
understanding each other. The vowels are different, but they are
different in a consistent way.
Now and then there's confusion when a word in one dialect seems to match
a different word in the other dialect -- e.g. AusE "six" is pronounced
the same as NZE "sex" -- but you don't have to get very far into a
conversation before your brain is automatically doing the adjustment.
It usually takes just a few seconds, and such adjustment seems to be one of the
reasons "phatic communication" evolved -- you don't just walk up to someone and
start talking about your topic; you take a few turns saying hello.

I wonder if anyone's ever looked at whether such interactions are more extended
in more heterogeneous speech communities and less so in homogeneous ones.
Quinn C
2017-05-19 17:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jack Campin
The neutral way to put it is to say that American speakers
typically can't distinguish some of the vowels used in NZ
English. Which would make it a bad idea to get a Kiwi to
record announcements for a US airport, but Kiwis don't have
a problem understanding each other.
Not only that. Australians and New Zealanders have no trouble
understanding each other. The vowels are different, but they are
different in a consistent way.
Now and then there's confusion when a word in one dialect seems to match
a different word in the other dialect -- e.g. AusE "six" is pronounced
the same as NZE "sex" -- but you don't have to get very far into a
conversation before your brain is automatically doing the adjustment.
It usually takes just a few seconds,
Probably a little longer for me, not being a native speaker. But
that was the basis of this whole thread: I didn't quite get
adjusted during several minutes of interview with Goldson, so I
wondered if there was something special about her speech.
--
Manche Dinge sind vorgeschrieben, weil man sie braucht, andere
braucht man nur, weil sie vorgeschrieben sind.
-- Helmut Richter in de.etc.sprache.deutsch
Tony Cooper
2017-05-19 14:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 19 May 2017 10:04:34 +0100, Jack Campin
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Horace LaBadie
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate
for a chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
I don't get it. Those vowels, as pronounced in Kiwi English, are
clearly distinguishable to any other New Zealander. It isn't her
that's got a merger, it's some ignorant American listeners. Who
wouldn't be in the kitchen with her anyway.
Why is an American "ignorant" if he has a problem understanding
a Kiwi accent? Not being used to an accent is not a sign of
ignorance. Just unfamiliarity.
Saying the vowels have "merged" is not just ignorance, it's
aggressive ignorance. It's comparable to insisting that all
Chinese words distinguished by tone are really the same.
The neutral way to put it is to say that American speakers
typically can't distinguish some of the vowels used in NZ
English. Which would make it a bad idea to get a Kiwi to
record announcements for a US airport, but Kiwis don't have
a problem understanding each other.
WMFE is a local NPR (National Public Radio) station in Orlando. One
of the frequently-heard voices is that of Matthew Peddie. Peddie is
originally from Christchurch NZ, graduated from the University of
Western Ontario, and returned to NZ to work for Radio Live and Radio
New Zealand. Dunno how he ended up here.

He retains his NZ accent, but it's not all that noticeable until he
says words like "seven" which come out as "siven".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2017-05-19 14:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Horace LaBadie
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
Langbein has the better-butter-batter merger, which is unfortunate
for a chef. It can lead to some momentary confusion.
I don't get it. Those vowels, as pronounced in Kiwi English, are
clearly distinguishable to any other New Zealander. It isn't her
that's got a merger, it's some ignorant American listeners. Who
wouldn't be in the kitchen with her anyway.
Dogs and Americans, keep out?
--
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use
the 'Net and he won't bother you for weeks.
Quinn C
2017-05-19 17:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Quinn C
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.40933
48/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>
is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.
If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.409334
8
My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.
It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
She's easier to understand that Annabel Langbein, the NZ chef.
I didn't find her
i.e., Annie Goldson
Post by Quinn C
particularly hard to understand,
Not sure that was clear.
--
Novels and romances ... when habitually indulged in, exert a
disastrous influence on the nervous system, sufficient to explain
that frequency of hysteria and nervous disease which we find
among the highest classes. -- E.J. Tilt
Ross
2017-05-20 03:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Let's make fun of the NZ accent!
No, not really.
<http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.4093348/fraudster-or-folk-hero-the-story-of-kim-dotcom-1.4093353>
is an interview with filmmaker Annie Goldson about her documentary
on Kim Dotcom.
If you don't find the Listen button (as happened to me first), you
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/355-down-and-out-in-the-digital-economy-1.4093348
My question is whether she's speaking with a natural New Zealand
accent. I found it more difficult to get used to the accent than
in past instances, so I was wondering if she's maybe trying to
control it and sounds unnatural or inconsistent. Or maybe she's
lived abroad and has other influences? I can't identify any,
though.
It's possible I was just tired when I listened to it,
Finally had a chance to check this with my natural New Zealand wife,
and she says it sounds normal to her. (She would like to put a
regional tag on it, but I'm skeptical about such things.) Goldson is
of course an educated person, and (I find) lived and worked in the USA
for several years in the 80s/90s. So I would not expect her accent to be
extreme.
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