Discussion:
eelectronics
(too old to reply)
Quinn C
2018-05-10 22:23:38 UTC
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I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.

To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
dictionaries but not others.

In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
strangely over-articulated at the end.

--
The need of a personal pronoun of the singular number and common
gender is so desperate, urgent, imperative, that ... it should long
since have grown on our speech -- The Atlantic Monthly (1878)
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-10 22:41:24 UTC
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On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>
> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
> dictionaries but not others.

But where did she put the secondary accent?

The correct pronunciation, that is, mine, is /@,lEk'***@k/. I
often hear /,***@k'***@k/, which sounds weird to me.

> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
> me, as I also heard her say "eessential".

Not surprising. I think I've heard that, maybe from the same
Americans who say "eefficient" and "ohfficial". I think most of them
are trained prohfessionals.

> And it may only be her,
> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
> strangely over-articulated at the end.

--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2018-05-11 18:48:51 UTC
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* Jerry Friedman:

> On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>
>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>> dictionaries but not others.
>
> But where did she put the secondary accent?

On the first syllable. I think it has to be for having the eel vowel
there.

> The correct pronunciation, that is, mine, is /@,lEk'***@k/. I
> often hear /,***@k'***@k/, which sounds weird to me.

So my preferred pronunciation is weird to you (as you wrote except that
I distinguish bother-father.)

--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-15 00:15:33 UTC
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On 5/11/18 12:48 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
>
>> On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>
>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>
>> But where did she put the secondary accent?
>
> On the first syllable. I think it has to be for having the eel vowel
> there.

I don't think it does.

>> The correct pronunciation, that is, mine, is /@,lEk'***@k/. I
>> often hear /,***@k'***@k/, which sounds weird to me.
>
> So my preferred pronunciation is weird to you (as you wrote except that
> I distinguish bother-father.)

Yep. No doubt mine is weird to some people.

How do you pronounce "electricity"?

--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2018-05-17 16:36:13 UTC
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* Jerry Friedman:

> On 5/11/18 12:48 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Jerry Friedman:
>>
>>> On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>>
>>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>>
>>> But where did she put the secondary accent?
>>
>> On the first syllable. I think it has to be for having the eel vowel
>> there.
>
> I don't think it does.
>
>>> The correct pronunciation, that is, mine, is /@,lEk'***@k/. I
>>> often hear /,***@k'***@k/, which sounds weird to me.
>>
>> So my preferred pronunciation is weird to you (as you wrote except that
>> I distinguish bother-father.)
>
> Yep. No doubt mine is weird to some people.
>
> How do you pronounce "electricity"?

Along the same lines:

/,***@k'trIsIti/, but the secondary accent is quite weak, so the first
vowel isn't that clearly defined.

While Collins allows only /I/ or /i:/ at the beginning, their sound
file for the pronunciation with /I/ sounds quite like my own, which I'd
describe as starting in /E/. Their sound file for the AmE pronunciation
starting in /I/ actually sounds like /I/ to me, so it's farther from my
own:

<https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/electricity>

I frequently notice differences between the written pronunciation and
the sound files. In this case, the Cambridge dictionary sound file for
BrE sounds to me like it has a /z/ instead of an /s/, as written, and
the US one seems to start in /E/ when they write /i/:

<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/electricity?a=british>

--
The Internet? Is that thing still around? - Homer Simpson
Snidely
2018-05-17 06:58:55 UTC
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Remember when Jerry Friedman bragged outrageously? That was Thursday:
> On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>
>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>> dictionaries but not others.
>
> But where did she put the secondary accent?
>
> The correct pronunciation, that is, mine, is /@,lEk'***@k/. I
> often hear /,***@k'***@k/, which sounds weird to me.

I think mine tends to be /il,Ek'trAnIk/, with the 'i' rather short.
But I'm self-diagnosing, and you know how that goes, and anyway I think
"tends" is an important qualification.


>
>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential".

My take on this is /E'snt,Z=l/ where '=' represents something between
/aU/ (like shoal) and /i-E/ (a tripthong?).

> Not surprising. I think I've heard that, maybe from the same
> Americans who say "eefficient" and "ohfficial". I think most of them
> are trained prohfessionals.
>
>> And it may only be her,
>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
>> strangely over-articulated at the end.

/dps

--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
Quinn C
2018-05-17 16:36:13 UTC
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* Snidely:

> Remember when Jerry Friedman bragged outrageously? That was Thursday:
>> On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>
>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>
>> But where did she put the secondary accent?
>>
>> The correct pronunciation, that is, mine, is /@,lEk'***@k/. I
>> often hear /,***@k'***@k/, which sounds weird to me.
>
> I think mine tends to be /il,Ek'trAnIk/, with the 'i' rather short.
> But I'm self-diagnosing, and you know how that goes, and anyway I think
> "tends" is an important qualification.
>
>>
>>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential".
>
> My take on this is /E'snt,Z=l/ where '=' represents something between

Is the sequence /tZ/ really possible in any English? More likely /tS/
or /dZ/.

> /aU/ (like shoal)

You rhyme shoal with cowl, not with coal?

If coal, GenAm is /oU/, SSB is /@U/.

> and /i-E/ (a tripthong?).

Much simpler /@'***@l/ here.

As for the t inside, we recently talked about /nS/ being essentially
indistinguishable from /ntS/.

--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
s***@gmail.com
2018-05-17 20:24:52 UTC
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On Thursday, May 17, 2018 at 9:36:17 AM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> * Snidely:
>
> > Remember when Jerry Friedman bragged outrageously? That was Thursday:
> >> On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> >>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
> >>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
> >>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
> >>>
> >>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
> >>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
> >>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
> >>> dictionaries but not others.
> >>
> >> But where did she put the secondary accent?
> >>
> >> The correct pronunciation, that is, mine, is /@,lEk'***@k/. I
> >> often hear /,***@k'***@k/, which sounds weird to me.
> >
> > I think mine tends to be /il,Ek'trAnIk/, with the 'i' rather short.
> > But I'm self-diagnosing, and you know how that goes, and anyway I think
> > "tends" is an important qualification.
> >
> >>
> >>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
> >>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential".
> >
> > My take on this is /E'snt,Z=l/ where '=' represents something between
>
> Is the sequence /tZ/ really possible in any English?

I don't know, but I'm no longer a pure subject, since Herr Panny
worked on our skill with that.

> More likely /tS/
> or /dZ/.

I think a large number of random samples of my speech
would include all 3, but my tongue seems to aim at the alveolar ridge.

> > /aU/ (like shoal)
>
> You rhyme shoal with cowl, not with coal?
>
> If coal, GenAm is /oU/, SSB is /@U/.

Coal. Too quick paging through Kirschbaum/

>
> > and /i-E/ (a tripthong?).
>
> Much simpler /@'***@l/ here.
>
> As for the t inside, we recently talked about /nS/ being essentially
> indistinguishable from /ntS/.

I did read this far before answering.

/dps
RH Draney
2018-05-11 05:20:55 UTC
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On 5/10/2018 3:23 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.

You'd rather she innunciate less?...r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-11 06:15:32 UTC
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On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:

> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>
> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
> dictionaries but not others.
>
> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
> strangely over-articulated at the end.

I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".

--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-11 12:46:47 UTC
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On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 2:15:36 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:
>
> > I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
> > recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
> > the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
> >
> > To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
> > beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
> > issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
> > dictionaries but not others.
> >
> > In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
> > me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
> > somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
> > strangely over-articulated at the end.
>
> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".

Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!) phonetic patterns
are widely shared by other ethnic communities throughout the South. On
the radio or telephone, a Northerner might wrongly assume a speaker is black.

Both the movie (Rod Steiger) and the TV (Carroll O'Connor) versions of
*In the Heat of the Night* provide credible examples of Poor White
dialect contrasted with that of a northern black man (Sidney Poitier,
Howard Rollins).

I don't remember whether there are black characters in *Cool Hand Luke*,
but you might recall Strother Martin's iconic line "What we have here is
failure to communicate." Hmm, interesting discussion of the line here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Hand_Luke#"Failure_to_communicate"

Quite likely indistinguishable from black speech of the area. (The northern
inner cities began to be settled by black people escaping the Mississippi
floods in the 1920s, which helps explain the uniformite of African American
Vernacular English throughout the urban North. Regional black accents are now
developing in the cities that had had distinctive speechways when they arrived.)

The two regions had different patterns of segregation through the first two
thirds of the 20th century: in the South, be as close as you want, but don't
rise in social station (with the 400 year history of domestic slavery); in
the North, rise as high as you want but don't associate with us (which led
to thriving commercial districts and successful businesses in the black
neighborhoods, which began to fail when integration was promoted and African
Americans chose to shop in the bigger stores whose clientele had previously
only been white).

I don't remember where I first read about that, but it was obviously in
progress when I came to Chicago in 1972. Any number of South Side business
districts were going under as their customers no longer _had_ to shop there,
and the reason didn't seem to be recognized by the politicians or the community
activists. (Also there had been devastating riots on the West Side in 1967-68,
abd 20 years later the neighborhoods had not recovered.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-12 06:37:32 UTC
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On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:

> On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 2:15:36 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>
>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>
>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>>
>>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
>>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
>>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
>>
>> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of>
>> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".
>
> Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!

Why "quaint"? With all the different terminological fashions that have
succeeded one another in my lifetime: Negro, Coloured, Black, African
American, what next? Who can keep up? And, if they're not living there,
who cares? Moreover, many Africans are not black: I know lots who are
barely blacker than I am, and I'm not thinking of South Africans
(though I know some of them as well); none of them would be called
African American if they became American (I know one in Kansas who is
well on her way to doing just that), though they're a lot more African
than those that are so-called.

I read reports of people being arrested for driving while black or
similar offences: should they be reported as driving while
African-American?

> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities
> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might
> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>
> Both the movie (Rod Steiger) and the TV (Carroll O'Connor) versions
> of*In the Heat of the Night* provide credible examples of Poor
> Whitedialect contrasted with that of a northern black man (Sidney
> Poitier,Howard Rollins).
> I don't remember whether there are black characters in *Cool Hand
> Luke*,but you might recall Strother Martin's iconic line "What we have
> here isfailure to communicate." Hmm, interesting discussion of the line
> here:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Hand_Luke#"Failure_to_communicate"
> Quite likely indistinguishable from black speech of the area. (The
> northerninner cities began to be settled by black people escaping the
> Mississippifloods in the 1920s, which helps explain the uniformite of
> African AmericanVernacular English throughout the urban North. Regional
> black accents are nowdeveloping in the cities that had had distinctive
> speechways when they arrived.)
>
> The two regions had different patterns of segregation through the first
> twothirds of the 20th century: in the South, be as close as you want,
> but don'trise in social station (with the 400 year history of domestic
> slavery); inthe North, rise as high as you want but don't associate
> with us (which ledto thriving commercial districts and successful
> businesses in the blackneighborhoods, which began to fail when
> integration was promoted and AfricanAmericans chose to shop in the
> bigger stores whose clientele had previouslyonly been white).
>
> I don't remember where I first read about that, but it was obviously
> inprogress when I came to Chicago in 1972. Any number of South Side
> businessdistricts were going under as their customers no longer _had_
> to shop there,and the reason didn't seem to be recognized by the
> politicians or the community
> activists. (Also there had been devastating riots on the West Side in
> 1967-68,abd 20 years later the neighborhoods had not recovered.)


--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 14:23:52 UTC
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On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
> > On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 2:15:36 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:

> >>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
> >>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
> >>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
> >>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
> >>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
> >>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
> >>> dictionaries but not others.
> >>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
> >>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
> >>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
> >>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
> >> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of>
> >> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".
> > Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!
>
> Why "quaint"?

Because it's not an extant term. It sounds like something a racist trying
to sound non-racist might come up with -- like LBJ's "nigra." He grew up
saying "nigger" and tempered it a bit.

> With all the different terminological fashions that have
> succeeded one another in my lifetime: Negro, Coloured, Black, African
> American, what next? Who can keep up? And, if they're not living there,
> who cares? Moreover, many Africans are not black: I know lots who are
> barely blacker than I am, and I'm not thinking of South Africans
> (though I know some of them as well); none of them would be called
> African American if they became American (I know one in Kansas who is
> well on her way to doing just that), though they're a lot more African
> than those that are so-called.
>
> I read reports of people being arrested for driving while black or
> similar offences: should they be reported as driving while
> African-American?

You're turning into Heathfield. Not a Good Thing.

And not a word about the point of my message.

> > ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities
> > throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might
> > wrongly assume a speaker is black.
> >
> > Both the movie (Rod Steiger) and the TV (Carroll O'Connor) versions
> > of*In the Heat of the Night* provide credible examples of Poor
> > Whitedialect contrasted with that of a northern black man (Sidney
> > Poitier,Howard Rollins).
> > I don't remember whether there are black characters in *Cool Hand
> > Luke*,but you might recall Strother Martin's iconic line "What we have
> > here isfailure to communicate." Hmm, interesting discussion of the line
> > here:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Hand_Luke#"Failure_to_communicate"
> > Quite likely indistinguishable from black speech of the area. (The
> > northerninner cities began to be settled by black people escaping the
> > Mississippifloods in the 1920s, which helps explain the uniformite of
> > African AmericanVernacular English throughout the urban North. Regional
> > black accents are nowdeveloping in the cities that had had distinctive
> > speechways when they arrived.)
> >
> > The two regions had different patterns of segregation through the first
> > twothirds of the 20th century: in the South, be as close as you want,
> > but don'trise in social station (with the 400 year history of domestic
> > slavery); inthe North, rise as high as you want but don't associate
> > with us (which ledto thriving commercial districts and successful
> > businesses in the blackneighborhoods, which began to fail when
> > integration was promoted and AfricanAmericans chose to shop in the
> > bigger stores whose clientele had previouslyonly been white).
> >
> > I don't remember where I first read about that, but it was obviously
> > inprogress when I came to Chicago in 1972. Any number of South Side
> > businessdistricts were going under as their customers no longer _had_
> > to shop there,and the reason didn't seem to be recognized by the
> > politicians or the community
> > activists. (Also there had been devastating riots on the West Side in
> > 1967-68,abd 20 years later the neighborhoods had not recovered.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-12 15:01:00 UTC
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Raw Message
On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:

> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>> On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 2:15:36 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:
>
>>>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>>>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>>>>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
>>>>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
>>>>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
>>>> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of>>
>>>> >> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".
>>> Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!
>>
>> Why "quaint"?
>
> Because it's not an extant term. It sounds like something a racist
> tryingto sound non-racist might come up with -- like LBJ's "nigra." He
> grew upsaying "nigger" and tempered it a bit.
>
>> With all the different terminological fashions that have> succeeded one
>> another in my lifetime: Negro, Coloured, Black, African> American, what
>> next? Who can keep up? And, if they're not living there,> who cares?
>> Moreover, many Africans are not black: I know lots who are> barely
>> blacker than I am, and I'm not thinking of South Africans> (though I
>> know some of them as well); none of them would be called> African
>> American if they became American (I know one in Kansas who is> well on
>> her way to doing just that), though they're a lot more African> than
>> those that are so-called.
>>
>> I read reports of people being arrested for driving while black or>
>> similar offences: should they be reported as driving while>
>> African-American?
>
> You're turning into Heathfield. Not a Good Thing.
> And not a word about the point of my message.

No, because I got sidetracked by "quaint".
>
>>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities> >
>>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
>>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.

Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) spoken in
real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
(about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
African American, to use your preferred term, and I wrongly (perhaps)
jumped too readily to the conclusion that it was a typical
African-American way of pronouncing "police". Actually I think I read
later that Steven Pinker used this very example to illustrate his
argument that "non-standard" pronunciations should not be regarded as
sloppy or lazy.

>>> Both the movie (Rod Steiger) and the TV (Carroll O'Connor) versions> >
>>> of*In the Heat of the Night* provide credible examples of Poor> >
>>> Whitedialect contrasted with that of a northern black man (Sidney> >
>>> Poitier,Howard Rollins).
>>> I don't remember whether there are black characters in *Cool Hand> >
>>> Luke*,but you might recall Strother Martin's iconic line "What we have>
>>> > here isfailure to communicate." Hmm, interesting discussion of the
>>> line> > here:
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Hand_Luke#"Failure_to_communicate"
>>> Quite likely indistinguishable from black speech of the area. (The> >
>>> northerninner cities began to be settled by black people escaping the>
>>> > Mississippifloods in the 1920s, which helps explain the uniformite
>>> of> > African AmericanVernacular English throughout the urban North.
>>> Regional> > black accents are nowdeveloping in the cities that had had
>>> distinctive> > speechways when they arrived.)
>>>
>>> The two regions had different patterns of segregation through the
>>> first> > twothirds of the 20th century: in the South, be as close as
>>> you want,> > but don'trise in social station (with the 400 year history
>>> of domestic> > slavery); inthe North, rise as high as you want but
>>> don't associate> > with us (which ledto thriving commercial districts
>>> and successful> > businesses in the blackneighborhoods, which began to
>>> fail when> > integration was promoted and AfricanAmericans chose to
>>> shop in the> > bigger stores whose clientele had previouslyonly been
>>> white).
>>>
>>> I don't remember where I first read about that, but it was obviously> >
>>> inprogress when I came to Chicago in 1972. Any number of South Side> >
>>> businessdistricts were going under as their customers no longer _had_>
>>> > to shop there,and the reason didn't seem to be recognized by the> >
>>> politicians or the community
>>> activists. (Also there had been devastating riots on the West Side in>
>>> > 1967-68,abd 20 years later the neighborhoods had not recovered.)


--
athel
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 16:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 17:01:00 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>
>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>>> On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 2:15:36 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>
>>>>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>>>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>>>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>>>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>>>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>>>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>>>>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>>>>>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
>>>>>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
>>>>>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
>>>>> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of>>
>>>>> >> speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for "police".
>>>> Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!
>>>
>>> Why "quaint"?
>>
>> Because it's not an extant term. It sounds like something a racist
>> tryingto sound non-racist might come up with -- like LBJ's "nigra." He
>> grew upsaying "nigger" and tempered it a bit.
>>
>>> With all the different terminological fashions that have> succeeded one
>>> another in my lifetime: Negro, Coloured, Black, African> American, what
>>> next? Who can keep up? And, if they're not living there,> who cares?
>>> Moreover, many Africans are not black: I know lots who are> barely
>>> blacker than I am, and I'm not thinking of South Africans> (though I
>>> know some of them as well); none of them would be called> African
>>> American if they became American (I know one in Kansas who is> well on
>>> her way to doing just that), though they're a lot more African> than
>>> those that are so-called.
>>>
>>> I read reports of people being arrested for driving while black or>
>>> similar offences: should they be reported as driving while>
>>> African-American?
>>
>> You're turning into Heathfield. Not a Good Thing.
>> And not a word about the point of my message.
>
>No, because I got sidetracked by "quaint".

As you should. Inappropriate word choice.

>>
>>>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities> >
>>>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
>>>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>
>Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) spoken in
>real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
>(about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
>a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
>African American, to use your preferred term, and I wrongly (perhaps)
>jumped too readily to the conclusion that it was a typical
>African-American way of pronouncing "police".

It *is* common*. I would spell it "PO-leese", and it leads to the
other commonly used expression by some African Americans: Po-Po.

It's funny, but I consider this sign to be somewhat offensive:

http://www.funnysigns.net/1-855-wtf-popo/

If you are not familiar with "WTF", it's "What the fuck?".

*I don't like "typical" in this context because that implies a use by
the general African American population. It is commonly heard,
though.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-12 16:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-12 16:01:09 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> On Sat, 12 May 2018 17:01:00 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>
>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>>>> On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 2:15:36 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>>> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>>
>>>>>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>>>>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>>>>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>>>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>>>>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>>>>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>>>>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>>>>>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>>>>>>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
>>>>>>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
>>>>>>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
>>>>>> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of>>
>>>>>>>> speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for "police".
>>>>> Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!
>>>>
>>>> Why "quaint"?
>>>
>>> Because it's not an extant term. It sounds like something a racist
>>> tryingto sound non-racist might come up with -- like LBJ's "nigra." He
>>> grew upsaying "nigger" and tempered it a bit.
>>>
>>>> With all the different terminological fashions that have> succeeded one
>>>> another in my lifetime: Negro, Coloured, Black, African> American, what
>>>> next? Who can keep up? And, if they're not living there,> who cares?
>>>> Moreover, many Africans are not black: I know lots who are> barely
>>>> blacker than I am, and I'm not thinking of South Africans> (though I
>>>> know some of them as well); none of them would be called> African
>>>> American if they became American (I know one in Kansas who is> well on
>>>> her way to doing just that), though they're a lot more African> than
>>>> those that are so-called.
>>>>
>>>> I read reports of people being arrested for driving while black or>
>>>> similar offences: should they be reported as driving while>
>>>> African-American?
>>>
>>> You're turning into Heathfield. Not a Good Thing.
>>> And not a word about the point of my message.
>>
>> No, because I got sidetracked by "quaint".
>
> As you should. Inappropriate word choice.
>
>>>
>>>>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities> >
>>>>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
>>>>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>>
>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) spoken in
>> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
>> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
>> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
>> African American, to use your preferred term, and I wrongly (perhaps)
>> jumped too readily to the conclusion that it was a typical
>> African-American way of pronouncing "police".
>
> It *is* common*. I would spell it "PO-leese", and it leads to the
> other commonly used expression by some African Americans: Po-Po.
>
> It's funny, but I consider this sign to be somewhat offensive:
>
> http://www.funnysigns.net/1-855-wtf-popo/
>
> If you are not familiar with "WTF", it's "What the fuck?".

Well. Hen Harrison thinks I'm out of touch with the modern world, but
I'm not _that_ out of touch.
>
> *I don't like "typical" in this context because that implies a use by
> the general African American population. It is commonly heard,
> though.


--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 16:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
> > On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:

> >>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities> >
> >>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
> >>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>
> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) spoken in
> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
> African American, to use your preferred term, a

Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use our
preferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place? A Miesian structure, modeled
on his museum in Berlin but not designed by him, that opened in, I think,
1968, on the Lakefront in the 20s (Streets), to which over the years
numerous buildings have been added on the land side of Lake Shore Drive,
possibly including repurposing some of the R. R. Donnelly printing plant.
It's well insulated from the adjacent ghetto. If they've put hotels there,
they wouldn't fall into the not-too-salubrious category.

Or perhaps the Chicago Stadium, which is not a baseball or football
facility but an indoor arena formerly used by the Bulls (basketball) and
Blackhawks (hockey) as well as for circuses and political conventions.
It's on the Near West Side, so if there are hotels nearby, they might fit
that description. It's no longer a sports venue; at the height of Michael
Jordan's celebrity, a new one was built not far away (it has one of those
commercial names that can change every few years as contracts run out, and
also a statue of Jordan outside it) of somewhat larger capacity -- it
accommodated the larger basketball crowds, but I heard that they didn't
sell any more hockey tickets than they did when they filled the Stadium
for home games.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-12 16:48:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-12 16:38:01 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:

> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>
>>>>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities> >>
>>>>> >>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might>
>>>>> >
>>>>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>>
>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) spoken
>> in> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago>
>> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which>
>> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an>
>> African American, to use your preferred term, a
>
> Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use
> ourpreferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?

Yes, McCormick Place, which is indeed a convention centre, even if it's
not called that. But if it's not called that, why does it have a
preferred spelling?

--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 17:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 12:48:53 PM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-12 16:38:01 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
> > On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> >> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which>
> >> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an>
> >> African American, to use your preferred term, a
> > Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use
> > ourpreferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?
>
> Yes, McCormick Place, which is indeed a convention centre, even if it's
> not called that. But if it's not called that, why does it have a
> preferred spelling?

I didn't say "its" preferred spelling, I said _our_ preferred spelling.

There may be some "Centre"s in names of pretentious shopping malls -- the
one nearest my Andersonville apartment in the 1990s was the (something-
or-other) Town Centre, just over a northwestern boundary of the city. I
don't think I ever went shopping there, but it had a restaurant I went to.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-12 17:11:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-12 17:05:12 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:

> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 12:48:53 PM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-12 16:38:01 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>>>> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which>
>>>> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an>
>>>> African American, to use your preferred term, a
>>> Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use
>>> ourpreferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?
>>
>> Yes, McCormick Place, which is indeed a convention centre, even if it's
>> not called that. But if it's not called that, why does it have a
>> preferred spelling?
>
> I didn't say "its" preferred spelling, I said _our_ preferred spelling.

OK, but by now you must have realized that _your_ preferred spelling
isn't always the same as _my_ preferred spelling. In this case I
deliberately wrote "centre" to see if you would take the bait.
>
> There may be some "Centre"s in names of pretentious shopping malls -- the
> one nearest my Andersonville apartment in the 1990s was the (something-
> or-other) Town Centre, just over a northwestern boundary of the city. I
> don't think I ever went shopping there, but it had a restaurant I went to.


--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 17:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-12 17:05:12 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
> > On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 12:48:53 PM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2018-05-12 16:38:01 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
> >>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> >>>> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which>
> >>>> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an>
> >>>> African American, to use your preferred term, a
> >>> Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use
> >>> our preferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?
> >> Yes, McCormick Place, which is indeed a convention centre, even if it's
> >> not called that. But if it's not called that, why does it have a
> >> preferred spelling?
> > I didn't say "its" preferred spelling, I said _our_ preferred spelling.
>
> OK, but by now you must have realized that _your_ preferred spelling
> isn't always the same as _my_ preferred spelling. In this case I
> deliberately wrote "centre" to see if you would take the bait.

So you only _pretended_ not to understand what I'd said?

> > There may be some "Centre"s in names of pretentious shopping malls -- the
> > one nearest my Andersonville apartment in the 1990s was the (something-
> > or-other) Town Centre, just over a northwestern boundary of the city. I
> > don't think I ever went shopping there, but it had a restaurant I went to.
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 17:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:38:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<***@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>> > On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> >> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>
>> >>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities> >
>> >>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
>> >>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>>
>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) spoken in
>> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
>> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
>> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
>> African American, to use your preferred term, a
>
>Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use our
>preferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?

A minor quibble.

From Wiki:

McCormick Place is the largest convention center in North America. It
consists of four interconnected buildings and one indoor arena sited
on and near the shore of Lake Michigan, about 4 km (2.5 mi) south of
downtown Chicago, Illinois, United States. McCormick Place hosts
numerous trade shows and meetings.

From my own experience: The toughest union control of any convention
center I've encountered. And, I've been to many in the years when I
was an exhibitor at medical meetings.

On set-up day, I tried to carry in a cardboard box - about the size of
a ream of typing paper - containing some brochures. I was told that I
had to have a union guy take the box to my booth. I said I could
manage it, but he said if I went through the door with that box he'd
shut down the hall. He summoned a union guy with a cart that could
have transported a piano and I was charged $25 to have the brochures
taken to the booth.

I had a knock-down booth that was sent to the shows in advance, and
assembled at the show. Union guys assemble, and - at McCormick Place
- a separate electrical union guy has to be used to plug in any
extension cords. At most other convention centers the exhibitors can
assemble their own booth or pay the convention hall staff.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 17:14:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:06:03 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:38:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
> >> > On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> >> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:

> >> >>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities>
> >> >>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
> >> >>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
> >> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) spoken in
> >> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
> >> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
> >> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
> >> African American, to use your preferred term, a
> >Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use our
> >preferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?
>
> A minor quibble.

I have no idea what you have invented to "quibble" with now.

Moreover, the description below describes the present-day McCormick Place
facilities, and Athel hasn't suggested he's been in Chicago in recent
decades.

I wonder whether it's because you don't understand the meaning of "called."
Perhaps Anglomaniacs need to have it expressed as "named" instead.

It's comforting that, at some time in the distant past, you were given a
hard time by regulations concerning union labor. No doubt you rejoice in
now living in a "right to work" state -- meaning a 'right to work for less'
state.

> From Wiki:
>
> McCormick Place is the largest convention center in North America. It
> consists of four interconnected buildings and one indoor arena sited
> on and near the shore of Lake Michigan, about 4 km (2.5 mi) south of
> downtown Chicago, Illinois, United States. McCormick Place hosts
> numerous trade shows and meetings.
>
> From my own experience: The toughest union control of any convention
> center I've encountered. And, I've been to many in the years when I
> was an exhibitor at medical meetings.
>
> On set-up day, I tried to carry in a cardboard box - about the size of
> a ream of typing paper - containing some brochures. I was told that I
> had to have a union guy take the box to my booth. I said I could
> manage it, but he said if I went through the door with that box he'd
> shut down the hall. He summoned a union guy with a cart that could
> have transported a piano and I was charged $25 to have the brochures
> taken to the booth.
>
> I had a knock-down booth that was sent to the shows in advance, and
> assembled at the show. Union guys assemble, and - at McCormick Place
> - a separate electrical union guy has to be used to plug in any
> extension cords. At most other convention centers the exhibitors can
> assemble their own booth or pay the convention hall staff.
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 19:35:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 10:14:06 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<***@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:06:03 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:38:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> >> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>> >> > On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> >> >> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>
>> >> >>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities>
>> >> >>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
>> >> >>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>> >> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) spoken in
>> >> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
>> >> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
>> >> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
>> >> African American, to use your preferred term, a
>> >Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use our
>> >preferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?
>>
>> A minor quibble.
>
>I have no idea what you have invented to "quibble" with now.
>
>Moreover, the description below describes the present-day McCormick Place
>facilities, and Athel hasn't suggested he's been in Chicago in recent
>decades.

McCormick Place was opened in November, 1960. That's almost 6 decades
ago and within the time span of any visit Athel made. It has always
been called a "convention center", but the specific name of this
convention center is "McCormick Place". In fact, Robert McCormick,
who was the publisher of the _Chicago Tribune_, started promoting the
building of a lakefront convention center in the late 1920s before it
had a specific name.

I spent decades in a business where I routinely attended (as an
exhibitor) medical meetings in convention centers across the county. I
don't know, or remember, the specific name of most of them. No one
would quibble with me saying something about the convention center in
San Francisco or Dallas even though those facilities have specific
names.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 21:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 10:14:06 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:06:03 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:38:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> >> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
> >> >> > On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> >> >> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
> >
> >> >> >>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities>
> >> >> >>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
> >> >> >>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
> >> >> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) spoken in
> >> >> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
> >> >> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
> >> >> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
> >> >> African American, to use your preferred term, a
> >> >Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use our
> >> >preferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?
> >>
> >> A minor quibble.
> >
> >I have no idea what you have invented to "quibble" with now.
> >
> >Moreover, the description below describes the present-day McCormick Place
> >facilities, and Athel hasn't suggested he's been in Chicago in recent
> >decades.
>
> McCormick Place was opened in November, 1960. That's almost 6 decades
> ago and within the time span of any visit Athel made.

It was far smaller than it is today (and as described below), and that
building burned up just a few years later. It was replaced by the Mies-
like building, which in its early days was an exhibition space in the
northern part (presumably far more than half) and a truly awful theater
space, the Arie Crown Theater, in the southern part -- which, however,
booked some of the major touring shows. I saw Pearl Bailey in *Hello,
Dolly*; Leslie Uggams in *West Side Story*; Zero Mostel in *Fiddler on
the Roof*; and the famous Houston Grand Opera production of *Porgy and
Bess* there. It was a lousy place to see a show, but the Shubert was
presumably too small for the gate they needed to collect, and the
Auditorium Theatre was still a superb concert hall, not yet converted
for Broadway

> It has always
> been called a "convention center",

It is a convention center. It is not and has never been called "the
Convention Centre" (or "Center"), as Athel referred to it, capitalization
and all.

> but the specific name of this
> convention center is "McCormick Place". In fact, Robert McCormick,
> who was the publisher of the _Chicago Tribune_, started promoting the
> building of a lakefront convention center in the late 1920s before it
> had a specific name.
>
> I spent decades in a business where I routinely attended (as an
> exhibitor) medical meetings in convention centers across the county. I
> don't know, or remember, the specific name of most of them. No one
> would quibble with me saying something about the convention center in
> San Francisco or Dallas even though those facilities have specific
> names.

No San Franciscan would tolerate your calling the Cow Palace "the
Convention Centre."
Quinn C
2018-05-14 16:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
* Tony Cooper:

> I spent decades in a business where I routinely attended (as an
> exhibitor) medical meetings in convention centers across the county. I
> don't know, or remember, the specific name of most of them. No one
> would quibble with me saying something about the convention center in
> San Francisco or Dallas even though those facilities have specific
> names.

Assuming there's only one in the city in question. San Francisco has
two, according to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convention_centers_in_the_United_States>

The one in Dallas has "Convention Center" as part of the name, so it's
fair game anyway - and so has one of the SF ones (in its long form), so
I'd guess you mean that one. So, not great examples.

--
Learning the rules that govern intelligible speech is an
inculcation into normalized language, where the price of not
conforming is the loss of intelligibility itself.
-- Judith Butler
Tak To
2018-05-13 03:58:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/12/2018 1:14 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> [...]
>
> It's comforting that, at some time in the distant past, you were given a
> hard time by regulations concerning union labor. No doubt you rejoice in
> now living in a "right to work" state -- meaning a 'right to work for less'
> state.

Let's not generalize here. There are good unions and there
are bad unions; and there are reasonable union rules and
unreasonable union rules.

I once worked for a Wall St company that was located in a
facility saddled with many union rules. For example, one
has to get a union worker to plug a phone into a pre-wired
phone jack. That was in the 80s.

The jobs of the phone pluggers were not threatened by cheaper
non-unioned labor. They were just obsolete, period.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tony Cooper
2018-05-13 04:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 23:58:19 -0400, Tak To <***@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

>On 5/12/2018 1:14 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> It's comforting that, at some time in the distant past, you were given a
>> hard time by regulations concerning union labor. No doubt you rejoice in
>> now living in a "right to work" state -- meaning a 'right to work for less'
>> state.
>
>Let's not generalize here. There are good unions and there
>are bad unions; and there are reasonable union rules and
>unreasonable union rules.
>
The Orange County Convention Center here in Orlando employs union
labor. The erection/dismantling of booths is done by members of The
International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees if the exhibitor
engages the services from the OCCC. However, employees of the
exhibiting company may fully or partially erect/dismantle the
company's booth. Exhibitor employees can hand-carry materials into
the facility, but if a cart or dolly is required then a union employee
is used.

The Orange County Convention Center is the second-largest convention
center in the US. Right behind McCormick Place.

At McCormick Place, there are several unions involved. Material
brought into the exhibit area is done by members of the International
Brotherhood of Teamsters, but McCormick Place now allows exhibitor
employees to carry in small packages. This is a change from what the
rules were when I tried to carry in a package.

>I once worked for a Wall St company that was located in a
>facility saddled with many union rules. For example, one
>has to get a union worker to plug a phone into a pre-wired
>phone jack. That was in the 80s.
>
>The jobs of the phone pluggers were not threatened by cheaper
>non-unioned labor. They were just obsolete, period.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 14:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:58:23 PM UTC-4, Tak To wrote:
> On 5/12/2018 1:14 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> > It's comforting that, at some time in the distant past, you were given a
> > hard time by regulations concerning union labor. No doubt you rejoice in
> > now living in a "right to work" state -- meaning a 'right to work for less'
> > state.
>
> Let's not generalize here. There are good unions and there
> are bad unions; and there are reasonable union rules and
> unreasonable union rules.
>
> I once worked for a Wall St company that was located in a
> facility saddled with many union rules. For example, one
> has to get a union worker to plug a phone into a pre-wired
> phone jack. That was in the 80s.
>
> The jobs of the phone pluggers were not threatened by cheaper
> non-unioned labor. They were just obsolete, period.

That's a different matter. In the railroads, it was called "featherbedding."
Tony Cooper
2018-05-13 15:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 13 May 2018 07:00:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<***@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:58:23 PM UTC-4, Tak To wrote:
>> On 5/12/2018 1:14 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > [...]
>> >
>> > It's comforting that, at some time in the distant past, you were given a
>> > hard time by regulations concerning union labor. No doubt you rejoice in
>> > now living in a "right to work" state -- meaning a 'right to work for less'
>> > state.
>>
>> Let's not generalize here. There are good unions and there
>> are bad unions; and there are reasonable union rules and
>> unreasonable union rules.
>>
>> I once worked for a Wall St company that was located in a
>> facility saddled with many union rules. For example, one
>> has to get a union worker to plug a phone into a pre-wired
>> phone jack. That was in the 80s.
>>
>> The jobs of the phone pluggers were not threatened by cheaper
>> non-unioned labor. They were just obsolete, period.
>
>That's a different matter. In the railroads, it was called "featherbedding."


"Featherbedding" is when a union requires members assigned jobs for
positions that are not needed. The classic was when steam trains were
converted to diesel units, but the union required that a fireman be in
the cab.

It would be featherbedding if the union required a phone-plugger to be
on site if there were no phones to be plugged in, but not
featherbedding if the union required a union member to plug in phones
in pre-wired jacks.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-12 17:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-12 17:05:59 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:38:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>
>>>>>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities> >
>>>>>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
>>>>>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>>>
>>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) spoken in
>>> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
>>> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
>>> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
>>> African American, to use your preferred term, a
>>
>> Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use our
>> preferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?
>
> A minor quibble.
>
> From Wiki:
>
> McCormick Place is the largest convention center in North America. It
> consists of four interconnected buildings and one indoor arena sited
> on and near the shore of Lake Michigan, about 4 km (2.5 mi) south of
> downtown Chicago, Illinois, United States. McCormick Place hosts
> numerous trade shows and meetings.
>
> From my own experience: The toughest union control of any convention
> center I've encountered. And, I've been to many in the years when I
> was an exhibitor at medical meetings.
>
> On set-up day, I tried to carry in a cardboard box - about the size of
> a ream of typing paper - containing some brochures. I was told that I
> had to have a union guy take the box to my booth. I said I could
> manage it, but he said if I went through the door with that box he'd
> shut down the hall. He summoned a union guy with a cart that could
> have transported a piano and I was charged $25 to have the brochures
> taken to the booth.
>
> I had a knock-down booth that was sent to the shows in advance, and
> assembled at the show. Union guys assemble, and - at McCormick Place
> - a separate electrical union guy has to be used to plug in any
> extension cords. At most other convention centers the exhibitors can
> assemble their own booth or pay the convention hall staff.

I've never come across anything much like that, but maybe I wouldn't
have. Mostly when I go to a meeting I may have a poster that I put up
myself, or I use whatever projector is available. However, I've
organized a couple of meetings -- one in Italy in 1989,and another in
Hungary in 1999 -- and in neither case did the hotels make me pay for
things I could do myself. However, in 2012 there was a big congress in
Seville at which a German friend from the Beilstein Institute wanted to
have an afternoon satellite discussion. The (professional) organizers
said they'd have to pay 2000€ for a room and projector. That was more
than the Beilstein Institute was willing to pay, so he did it across
the street in a hotel that provided a room, projector and coffee for
about 400€. The only problem is that although Seville is not as hot in
September as it is in August it's still very hot, and just crossing the
street was unpleasant.


--
athel
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 19:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 19:31:47 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2018-05-12 17:05:59 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
>
>> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:38:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>>> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>>
>>>>>>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities> >
>>>>>>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
>>>>>>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) spoken in
>>>> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
>>>> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
>>>> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
>>>> African American, to use your preferred term, a
>>>
>>> Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use our
>>> preferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?
>>
>> A minor quibble.
>>
>> From Wiki:
>>
>> McCormick Place is the largest convention center in North America. It
>> consists of four interconnected buildings and one indoor arena sited
>> on and near the shore of Lake Michigan, about 4 km (2.5 mi) south of
>> downtown Chicago, Illinois, United States. McCormick Place hosts
>> numerous trade shows and meetings.
>>
>> From my own experience: The toughest union control of any convention
>> center I've encountered. And, I've been to many in the years when I
>> was an exhibitor at medical meetings.
>>
>> On set-up day, I tried to carry in a cardboard box - about the size of
>> a ream of typing paper - containing some brochures. I was told that I
>> had to have a union guy take the box to my booth. I said I could
>> manage it, but he said if I went through the door with that box he'd
>> shut down the hall. He summoned a union guy with a cart that could
>> have transported a piano and I was charged $25 to have the brochures
>> taken to the booth.
>>
>> I had a knock-down booth that was sent to the shows in advance, and
>> assembled at the show. Union guys assemble, and - at McCormick Place
>> - a separate electrical union guy has to be used to plug in any
>> extension cords. At most other convention centers the exhibitors can
>> assemble their own booth or pay the convention hall staff.
>
>I've never come across anything much like that, but maybe I wouldn't
>have. Mostly when I go to a meeting I may have a poster that I put up
>myself, or I use whatever projector is available. However, I've
>organized a couple of meetings -- one in Italy in 1989,and another in
>Hungary in 1999 -- and in neither case did the hotels make me pay for
>things I could do myself. However, in 2012 there was a big congress in
>Seville at which a German friend from the Beilstein Institute wanted to
>have an afternoon satellite discussion. The (professional) organizers
>said they'd have to pay 2000€ for a room and projector. That was more
>than the Beilstein Institute was willing to pay, so he did it across
>the street in a hotel that provided a room, projector and coffee for
>about 400€. The only problem is that although Seville is not as hot in
>September as it is in August it's still very hot, and just crossing the
>street was unpleasant.

The meetings at which I exhibited were quite different. They were all
meetings of various medical groups like the American College of
Surgeons, American Academy of Otolaryngology, American Academy of
Ophthalmology, and other groups of surgeons. It was usually a 20'
booth space. With the rental of the booth space, the cost of shipping
the booth, the cost of shipping cartons of surgical instruments and
equipment that were to be displayed, and the set-up charges, the cost
was usually between $5 and $10 thousand to exhibit. That doesn't
include the personal expenses or bar tab. It's probably double that,
now.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 21:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 1:31:52 PM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-12 17:05:59 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> > I had a knock-down booth that was sent to the shows in advance, and
> > assembled at the show. Union guys assemble, and - at McCormick Place
> > - a separate electrical union guy has to be used to plug in any
> > extension cords. At most other convention centers the exhibitors can
> > assemble their own booth or pay the convention hall staff.
>
> I've never come across anything much like that, but maybe I wouldn't
> have. Mostly when I go to a meeting I may have a poster that I put up
> myself, or I use whatever projector is available. However, I've
> organized a couple of meetings -- one in Italy in 1989,and another in
> Hungary in 1999 -- and in neither case did the hotels make me pay for
> things I could do myself. However, in 2012 there was a big congress in
> Seville at which a German friend from the Beilstein Institute wanted to
> have an afternoon satellite discussion. The (professional) organizers
> said they'd have to pay 2000€ for a room and projector. That was more
> than the Beilstein Institute was willing to pay, so he did it across
> the street in a hotel that provided a room, projector and coffee for
> about 400€. The only problem is that although Seville is not as hot in
> September as it is in August it's still very hot, and just crossing the
> street was unpleasant.

Some academic societies are small enough to have their meetings at
colleges/universities, where there are rarely facilities charges. The
International Linguistic Association is one such. Larger ones, though,
such as the Linguistic Society of America, need to go to hotels, and
the single largest expense in the budget is the charges for meeting
rooms and electronic equipment. When I first attended the American
Oriental Society's annual meeting (1976) and for quite a few years
after, it was held at universities (that had significant programs in
Oriental Studies). But somewhere along the way, it began to be held
in resort cities instead of universities, and not infrequently there
was no local sponsor at all. Recently that's changing again, and the
meetings are to be held in cities with major universities -- but at
hotels rather than university facilities. (Pittsburgh was an anomaly
on both counts.) But the next two are in Chicago and Boston, as they
have frequently been in the past. (New York is always called too
expensive; they're unreceptive to my pointing out that there are
several suitable hotels in Jersey City's new riverfront neighborhood,
which is exactly one subway stop from Lower Manhattan.)
Tak To
2018-05-13 00:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/12/2018 1:05 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 09:38:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:01:06 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>
>>>>>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities> >
>>>>>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might> >
>>>>>> wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>>>
>>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) spoken in
>>> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago
>>> (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which
>>> a great deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
>>> African American, to use your preferred term, a
>>
>> Chicago doesn't have anything called "the Convention Center" (to use our
>> preferred spelling); possibly McCormick Place?
>
> A minor quibble.
>
> From Wiki:
>
> McCormick Place is the largest convention center in North America. It
> consists of four interconnected buildings and one indoor arena sited
> on and near the shore of Lake Michigan, about 4 km (2.5 mi) south of
> downtown Chicago, Illinois, United States. McCormick Place hosts
> numerous trade shows and meetings.
>
> From my own experience: The toughest union control of any convention
> center I've encountered. And, I've been to many in the years when I
> was an exhibitor at medical meetings.
>
> On set-up day, I tried to carry in a cardboard box - about the size of
> a ream of typing paper - containing some brochures. I was told that I
> had to have a union guy take the box to my booth. I said I could
> manage it, but he said if I went through the door with that box he'd
> shut down the hall. He summoned a union guy with a cart that could
> have transported a piano and I was charged $25 to have the brochures
> taken to the booth.
>
> I had a knock-down booth that was sent to the shows in advance, and
> assembled at the show. Union guys assemble, and - at McCormick Place
> - a separate electrical union guy has to be used to plug in any
> extension cords. At most other convention centers the exhibitors can
> assemble their own booth or pay the convention hall staff.

I have heard similar horror stories about the union rules in
McCormick Place and that many national shows (e.g., COMDEX)
avoided the place. The stories were not only about having
to use the union workers but also that the workers were
often incompetent -- such as ignoring "this side up" signs
on crates and treating network cables as if they were power
cables.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Garrett Wollman
2018-05-13 02:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <pd829d$jno$***@dont-email.me>, Tak To <***@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:

>I have heard similar horror stories about the union rules in
>McCormick Place and that many national shows (e.g., COMDEX)
>avoided the place. The stories were not only about having
>to use the union workers but also that the workers were
>often incompetent -- such as ignoring "this side up" signs
>on crates and treating network cables as if they were power
>cables.

Similar stories about Javits (New York) and Moscone (San Francisco) --
a big reason why many conferences historically avoided those
facilities. (As opposed to Las Vegas, which is pretty anything-goes
but you need to have at least 50,000 attendees to make it worth
renting one hall at LVCC.[1]) The conferences I go to are small enough
(800-1200 paying attendees, maybe 50 exhibitors) that the exhibit hall
is usually in a hotel ballroom, the same ones as you see rented for
big weddings, proms, and election-night celebrations.

-GAWollman

[1] Historically, the two biggest trade shows in the world were NAB,
held every April in Las Vegas, and CES, held there in January. Both
rent out the entire LVCC and had in excess of 100,000 attendees last
time I looked. These two events were the driving force for the last
two convention-center expansions in Vegas -- IIRC, what's now the
North Hall used to be the only hall, back 25 yeasrs ago, before they
built the South (now Central) hall and then then current South Hall.
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Quinn C
2018-05-14 16:12:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
* Garrett Wollman:

> [1] Historically, the two biggest trade shows in the world were NAB,
> held every April in Las Vegas, and CES, held there in January. Both
> rent out the entire LVCC and had in excess of 100,000 attendees last
> time I looked.

Vot? I think you must have missed an important qualification there for
100,000 to qualify as "big". They go up to 2,000,000:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_fair#List_of_major_trade_fairs>

I've been to CeBIT, the largest computer expo in the world, when it had
maybe 500,000 visitors (at the peak, it was 830,000), held at Hannover
Messe, still the largest fairground in the world.

I didn't quickly find the information on how many days each of these
expositions last, to compare average daily attendance.

--
Humans write software and while a piece of software might be
bug free humans are not. - Robert Klemme
CDB
2018-05-12 19:02:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/12/2018 11:01 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels said:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels said:

[American English and the Poe-lease]

>>>> Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!

>>> Why "quaint"?

>> Because it's not an extant term.

You mean, "scientific or clinical term"? How do you feel about "White
American"? "Black" was the polite adjective just before I set hard, and
I plan to continue using it as long as "White" is the corresponding term
for my relatives.

I see farther downthread that Tony agrees with you that capitalising
"Black" makes it an official designation, but I don't. I routinely
capitalise "black" and "white" when they are used as ethnic terms; so a
lower-case "b" would imply that the people described were of the colour
black.

>> It sounds like something a racist trying to sound non-racist might
>> come up with -- like LBJ's "nigra." He grew up saying "nigger" and
>> tempered it a bit.

A short story that Lars Eighner posted here some years ago dealt with
that. According to him, "Nigra" was the unpretentiously polite Southern
term for "Black Person" at the time of the story (his youth, so probably
in the late '60s). Eighner is from Texas, I believe.

[perfectly good stuff sacrificed to the badgering of people who are
resentful about scrolling unrewarded]

I couldn't find the story, or I would have posted the link. Too bad.
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 20:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 15:02:11 -0400, CDB <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/12/2018 11:01 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels said:
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>> Peter T. Daniels said:
>
>[American English and the Poe-lease]
>
>>>>> Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!
>
>>>> Why "quaint"?
>
>>> Because it's not an extant term.
>
>You mean, "scientific or clinical term"? How do you feel about "White
>American"? "Black" was the polite adjective just before I set hard, and
>I plan to continue using it as long as "White" is the corresponding term
>for my relatives.
>
>I see farther downthread that Tony agrees with you that capitalising
>"Black" makes it an official designation, but I don't. I routinely
>capitalise "black" and "white" when they are used as ethnic terms; so a
>lower-case "b" would imply that the people described were of the colour
>black.

That's always a tricky thing. I don't think anyone's of the
impression that black Americans are black in color, but "black" is
commonly used to describe them. When I see "black" capitalized, I
think of it as part of some - you could say "official" - organization
(eg: Black Panthers)

I wouldn't capitalize "white" in that context, either, and for the
same reason.

I'm not sure there's a "right" or "wrong" way to make this choice.
It's not a point that I could defend either way. All I can do is
choose the style that *I* am comfortable using.

When you think about it, you can argue with "Colored" - as in the
NAACP. It's not like the people who aren't the "Colored People" in
that reference are colorless in appearance. Same with "people of
color".

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 21:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 4:07:35 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> When you think about it, you can argue with "Colored" - as in the
> NAACP.

No, you can't. It's the hallowed, historic name of the organization
founded by W. E. B. Du Bpis more than a century ago.

It's not surprising that you forgot to mention its partner in the canard,
the UNCF ("a mind is a terrible thing to waste").

> It's not like the people who aren't the "Colored People" in
> that reference are colorless in appearance. Same with "people of
> color".

Not "Same" at all. Different referent.
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 22:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 14:42:33 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<***@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 4:07:35 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> When you think about it, you can argue with "Colored" - as in the
>> NAACP.
>
>No, you can't.

Once again, you make me laugh...at you, not with you. I say you can
argue the point, and you say you can't. Which is, ipso facto, an
argument.


>It's the hallowed, historic name of the organization
>founded by W. E. B. Du Bpis more than a century ago.
>
>It's not surprising that you forgot to mention its partner in the canard,
>the UNCF ("a mind is a terrible thing to waste").

What is this "forgot to mention"? The discussion is about the use of
color terms, not organizations.
>
>> It's not like the people who aren't the "Colored People" in
>> that reference are colorless in appearance. Same with "people of
>> color".
>
>Not "Same" at all. Different referent.

Same referent...descriptions of people using color terms.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 02:40:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 6:15:36 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 12 May 2018 14:42:33 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 4:07:35 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> When you think about it, you can argue with "Colored" - as in the
> >> NAACP.
> >No, you can't.
>
> Once again, you make me laugh...at you, not with you. I say you can
> argue the point, and you say you can't. Which is, ipso facto, an
> argument.

Moron. It is not arguing the point. It is arguing the claim that you can
argue the point.

> >It's the hallowed, historic name of the organization
> >founded by W. E. B. Du Bpis more than a century ago.
> >It's not surprising that you forgot to mention its partner in the canard,
> >the UNCF ("a mind is a terrible thing to waste").
>
> What is this "forgot to mention"? The discussion is about the use of
> color terms, not organizations.

You can't identify the "color term" in UNCF?

> >> It's not like the people who aren't the "Colored People" in
> >> that reference are colorless in appearance. Same with "people of
> >> color".
> >Not "Same" at all. Different referent.
>
> Same referent...descriptions of people using color terms.

No, that was not the referent.

Gotta get that gopher repellent out again for all the holes left by the
moving goalposts.
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
2018-05-12 23:10:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Name-mangling "editor" PeteY "Genital Herpes" Daniels wrote:
>
> It's the hallowed, historic name of the organization
> founded by W. E. B. Du Bpis more than a century ago.
^^^^
Habitual name-mangler PeteY fucked up again. The late Du Bois would
be Bpissed off seeing his name mangled by that sloppy-slut "editor."

Improved!
See habitual name-mangler PeteY:
http://aman.members.sonic.net/PeteY-tie.jpg

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
CDB
2018-05-13 12:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/12/2018 7:10 PM, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
> Name-mangling "editor" PeteY "Genital Herpes" Daniels wrote:

>> It's the hallowed, historic name of the organization founded by W.
>> E. B. Du Bpis more than a century ago.
^^^^
> Habitual name-mangler PeteY fucked up again. The late Du Bois would
> be Bpissed off seeing his name mangled by that sloppy-slut "editor."

I found myself wondering if it was an Irish name. But I suppose that
would have been "du pBis".

> Improved! See habitual name-mangler PeteY:
> http://aman.members.sonic.net/PeteY-tie.jpg

--
Like, you know, na gCopaleen
Quinn C
2018-05-14 16:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
* Tony Cooper:

> When you think about it, you can argue with "Colored" - as in the
> NAACP. It's not like the people who aren't the "Colored People" in
> that reference are colorless in appearance. Same with "people of
> color".

Neither do people who don't fall in the "tall people" category have no
height at all.

In the case of "colored", it may be surprising that the adjective is
used in this way, but that's what I think actually happens here.

--
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is
to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies.
And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.
-- C. A. R. Hoare
Tony Cooper
2018-05-14 16:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 14 May 2018 12:12:11 -0400, Quinn C
<***@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Tony Cooper:
>
>> When you think about it, you can argue with "Colored" - as in the
>> NAACP. It's not like the people who aren't the "Colored People" in
>> that reference are colorless in appearance. Same with "people of
>> color".
>
>Neither do people who don't fall in the "tall people" category have no
>height at all.
>
I don't follow. It's not like there are "tall people" and "heightless
people".

My point was that all people have some color to their skin.


>In the case of "colored", it may be surprising that the adjective is
>used in this way, but that's what I think actually happens here.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2018-05-14 21:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
* Tony Cooper:

> On Mon, 14 May 2018 12:12:11 -0400, Quinn C
> <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Tony Cooper:
>>
>>> When you think about it, you can argue with "Colored" - as in the
>>> NAACP. It's not like the people who aren't the "Colored People" in
>>> that reference are colorless in appearance. Same with "people of
>>> color".
>>
>>Neither do people who don't fall in the "tall people" category have no
>>height at all.
>>
> I don't follow. It's not like there are "tall people" and "heightless
> people".

Then you should have read on to the second paragraph before answering.

> My point was that all people have some color to their skin.
>
> >In the case of "colored", it may be surprising that the adjective is
> >used in this way, but that's what I think actually happens here.

--
Some things are taken away from you, some you leave behind-and
some you carry with you, world without end.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.31
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-12 21:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 3:02:27 PM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> On 5/12/2018 11:01 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels said:
> >> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>> Peter T. Daniels said:

> [American English and the Poe-lease]

[see other thread for Poe material]

> >>>> Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!
> >>> Why "quaint"?
> >> Because it's not an extant term.
>
> You mean, "scientific or clinical term"?

I mean that you won't find "Black American" in ordinary use in American
writing or discourse.

> How do you feel about "White
> American"?

The same. (I refuse to capitalize either "white" or "black" when referring
to the social groups so designated.)

"White American" sounds like something the survivalists in northern Idaho
might identify themselves as, or the Charlottesville wannabe storm troopers.

> "Black" was the polite adjective just before I set hard, and
> I plan to continue using it as long as "White" is the corresponding term
> for my relatives.

But not "Black American." At that time it might have been "Afro-American,"
which sounds terribly dated today -- but it was also the time when a
number of prestigious colleges introduced what just a few years later
would be called Black Studies Departments, so e.g. Cornell has an "Afro-
American Studies Department." That's quaint for being old-fashioned. (It's
housed in the Africana Center, which is far from the center of campus.)

What is "set hard"?

> I see farther downthread that Tony agrees with you that capitalising
> "Black" makes it an official designation, but I don't. I routinely
> capitalise "black" and "white" when they are used as ethnic terms; so a
> lower-case "b" would imply that the people described were of the colour
> black.

The darkest skin I've encountered was on some Dravidian-speakers, i.e. from
southern India.

> >> It sounds like something a racist trying to sound non-racist might
> >> come up with -- like LBJ's "nigra." He grew up saying "nigger" and
> >> tempered it a bit.
>
> A short story that Lars Eighner posted here some years ago dealt with
> that. According to him, "Nigra" was the unpretentiously polite Southern
> term for "Black Person" at the time of the story (his youth, so probably
> in the late '60s). Eighner is from Texas, I believe.
>
> [perfectly good stuff sacrificed to the badgering of people who are
> resentful about scrolling unrewarded]
>
> I couldn't find the story, or I would have posted the link. Too bad.

So that seems to have been already after LBJ's heyday. He wasn't much in
the public eye after 1968. Though I remember when the CBS Evening News
came back from commercial and Walter Cronkite was on the phone (a white
handset, its spiral cord connected somewhere below the surface of his
desk) and held up a "Just a moment!" finger to the camera -- and then
reported the death of LBJ.
Sam Plusnet
2018-05-12 22:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 12-May-18 16:01, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-12 14:23:52 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>
>> On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:37:37 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> wrote:
>>> On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>>>> On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 2:15:36 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>
>>>>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>>>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>>>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>>>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>>>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>>>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>>>>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her
>>>>>> accent by
>>>>>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
>>>>>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
>>>>> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way
>>>>> of>> >> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".
>>>> Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!
>>>
>>> Why "quaint"?
>>
>> Because it's not an extant term. It sounds like something a racist
>> tryingto sound non-racist might come up with -- like LBJ's "nigra." He
>> grew upsaying "nigger" and tempered it a bit.
>>
>>> With all the different terminological fashions that have> succeeded
>>> one another in my lifetime: Negro, Coloured, Black, African>
>>> American, what next? Who can keep up? And, if they're not living
>>> there,> who cares? Moreover, many Africans are not black: I know lots
>>> who are> barely blacker than I am, and I'm not thinking of South
>>> Africans> (though I know some of them as well); none of them would be
>>> called> African American if they became American (I know one in
>>> Kansas who is> well on her way to doing just that), though they're a
>>> lot more African> than those that are so-called.
>>>
>>> I read reports of people being arrested for driving while black or>
>>> similar offences: should they be reported as driving while>
>>> African-American?
>>
>> You're turning into Heathfield. Not a Good Thing.
>> And not a word about the point of my message.
>
> No, because I got sidetracked by "quaint".
>>
>>>> ) phonetic patternsare widely shared by other ethnic communities> >
>>>> throughout the South. Onthe radio or telephone, a Northerner might>
>>>> > wrongly assume a speaker is black.
>
> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) spoken in
> real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago (about
> a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which a great
> deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an African
> American, to use your preferred term, and I wrongly (perhaps) jumped too
> readily to the conclusion that it was a typical African-American way of
> pronouncing "police". Actually I think I read later that Steven Pinker
> used this very example to illustrate his argument that "non-standard"
> pronunciations should not be regarded as sloppy or lazy.
>

As an aside.
If the event you are describing took place in 1972 (if I have pieced
things together correctly) then the term "African American" would have
been quite inappropriate for that time period.

Perhaps PTD will withdraw his objection.


--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 02:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 6:09:44 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 12-May-18 16:01, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> > Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) spoken in
> > real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel in Chicago (about
> > a block from the Convention Centre, but it was a block in which a great
> > deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an African
> > American, to use your preferred term, and I wrongly (perhaps) jumped too
> > readily to the conclusion that it was a typical African-American way of
> > pronouncing "police". Actually I think I read later that Steven Pinker
> > used this very example to illustrate his argument that "non-standard"
> > pronunciations should not be regarded as sloppy or lazy.
>
> As an aside.
> If the event you are describing took place in 1972 (if I have pieced
> things together correctly) then the term "African American" would have
> been quite inappropriate for that time period.
>
> Perhaps PTD will withdraw his objection.

As I said, a current term at that time (why did you pick 1972?) was "Afro-
American." "Black American" has never been a term. Even Tony Cooper agreed.
CDB
2018-05-13 12:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/12/2018 10:38 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease)
>>> spoken in real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel
>>> in Chicago (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was
>>> a block in which a great deal changed over a short distance). It
>>> was spoken by an African American, to use your preferred term,
>>> and I wrongly (perhaps) jumped too readily to the conclusion
>>> that it was a typical African-American way of pronouncing
>>> "police". Actually I think I read later that Steven Pinker used
>>> this very example to illustrate his argument that "non-standard"
>>> pronunciations should not be regarded as sloppy or lazy.

>> As an aside. If the event you are describing took place in 1972
>> (if I have pieced things together correctly) then the term
>> "African American" would have been quite inappropriate for that
>> time period.

>> Perhaps PTD will withdraw his objection.

> As I said, a current term at that time (why did you pick 1972?) was
> "Afro- American." "Black American" has never been a term. Even Tony
> Cooper agreed.

Of all people?

There's a rich harvest of "Black Americans" at Google. The search term
also leads to the alternatives, but there are plenty by that name. Even
some Black Canadians.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 14:03:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 8:17:35 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> On 5/12/2018 10:38 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Sam Plusnet wrote:
> >> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> >>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease)
> >>> spoken in real life was in a lift in a not very salubrious hotel
> >>> in Chicago (about a block from the Convention Centre, but it was
> >>> a block in which a great deal changed over a short distance). It
> >>> was spoken by an African American, to use your preferred term,
> >>> and I wrongly (perhaps) jumped too readily to the conclusion
> >>> that it was a typical African-American way of pronouncing
> >>> "police". Actually I think I read later that Steven Pinker used
> >>> this very example to illustrate his argument that "non-standard"
> >>> pronunciations should not be regarded as sloppy or lazy.
> >> As an aside. If the event you are describing took place in 1972
> >> (if I have pieced things together correctly) then the term
> >> "African American" would have been quite inappropriate for that
> >> time period.
> >> Perhaps PTD will withdraw his objection.
> > As I said, a current term at that time (why did you pick 1972?) was
> > "Afro-American." "Black American" has never been a term. Even Tony
> > Cooper agreed.
> Of all people?
>
> There's a rich harvest of "Black Americans" at Google. The search term
> also leads to the alternatives, but there are plenty by that name. Even
> some Black Canadians.

But not the phrase "Black American" used like "black" or "Colored" or
"Negro" or "Afro-American" or "African-American" or "African American."
CDB
2018-05-13 16:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/13/2018 10:03 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>>>>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs]
>>>>> (POE-lease) spoken in real life was in a lift in a not very
>>>>> salubrious hotel in Chicago (about a block from the
>>>>> Convention Centre, but it was a block in which a great deal
>>>>> changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an African
>>>>> American, to use your preferred term, and I wrongly (perhaps)
>>>>> jumped too readily to the conclusion that it was a typical
>>>>> African-American way of pronouncing "police". Actually I
>>>>> think I read later that Steven Pinker used this very example
>>>>> to illustrate his argument that "non-standard" pronunciations
>>>>> should not be regarded as sloppy or lazy.
>>>> As an aside. If the event you are describing took place in
>>>> 1972 (if I have pieced things together correctly) then the
>>>> term "African American" would have been quite inappropriate for
>>>> that time period. Perhaps PTD will withdraw his objection.
>>> As I said, a current term at that time (why did you pick 1972?)
>>> was "Afro-American." "Black American" has never been a term. Even
>>> Tony Cooper agreed.
>> Of all people?

>> There's a rich harvest of "Black Americans" at Google. The search
>> term also leads to the alternatives, but there are plenty by that
>> name. Even some Black Canadians.

> But not the phrase "Black American" used like "black" or "Colored"
> or "Negro" or "Afro-American" or "African-American" or "African
> American."

I was not surprised to see that someone had snipped the words in
question. Here they are:

Tony wrote "I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American
way of speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for 'police'". Note
that he uses the phrase attributively.

You then corrected him ("quaint") because "you won't find "Black
American" in ordinary use in American writing or discourse".

That is a misrepresentation of the facts. I agree that you won't find
the phrase in "American writing or discourse" when it is in attributive
use. For other normal uses, google Black American", as I suggested.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-13 16:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-13 16:52:39 +0000, CDB said:

> On 5/13/2018 10:03 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> CDB wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>>>>>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs]
>>>>>> (POE-lease) spoken in real life was in a lift in a not very
>>>>>> salubrious hotel in Chicago (about a block from the
>>>>>> Convention Centre, but it was a block in which a great deal
>>>>>> changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an African
>>>>>> American, to use your preferred term, and I wrongly (perhaps)
>>>>>> jumped too readily to the conclusion that it was a typical
>>>>>> African-American way of pronouncing "police". Actually I
>>>>>> think I read later that Steven Pinker used this very example
>>>>>> to illustrate his argument that "non-standard" pronunciations
>>>>>> should not be regarded as sloppy or lazy.
>>>>> As an aside. If the event you are describing took place in
>>>>> 1972 (if I have pieced things together correctly) then the
>>>>> term "African American" would have been quite inappropriate for
>>>>> that time period. Perhaps PTD will withdraw his objection.
>>>> As I said, a current term at that time (why did you pick 1972?)
>>>> was "Afro-American." "Black American" has never been a term. Even
>>>> Tony Cooper agreed.
>>> Of all people?
>
>>> There's a rich harvest of "Black Americans" at Google. The search
>>> term also leads to the alternatives, but there are plenty by that
>>> name. Even some Black Canadians.
>
>> But not the phrase "Black American" used like "black" or "Colored"
>> or "Negro" or "Afro-American" or "African-American" or "African
>> American."
>
> I was not surprised to see that someone had snipped the words in
> question. Here they are:
>
> Tony

Me, I think, unless I'm getting confused.

> wrote "I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American
> way of speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for 'police'". Note
> that he uses the phrase attributively.
>
> You then corrected him ("quaint") because "you won't find "Black
> American" in ordinary use in American writing or discourse".
>
> That is a misrepresentation of the facts. I agree that you won't find
> the phrase in "American writing or discourse" when it is in attributive
> use. For other normal uses, google Black American", as I suggested.


--
athel
CDB
2018-05-14 11:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/13/2018 12:57 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> CDB said:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>>>>>>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs]
>>>>>>> (POE-lease) spoken in real life was in a lift in a not
>>>>>>> very salubrious hotel in Chicago (about a block from the
>>>>>>> Convention Centre, but it was a block in which a great
>>>>>>> deal changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an
>>>>>>> African American, to use your preferred term, and I
>>>>>>> wrongly (perhaps) jumped too readily to the conclusion
>>>>>>> that it was a typical African-American way of pronouncing
>>>>>>> "police". Actually I think I read later that Steven
>>>>>>> Pinker used this very example to illustrate his argument
>>>>>>> that "non-standard" pronunciations should not be regarded
>>>>>>> as sloppy or lazy.
>>>>>> As an aside. If the event you are describing took place in
>>>>>> 1972 (if I have pieced things together correctly) then the
>>>>>> term "African American" would have been quite inappropriate
>>>>>> for that time period. Perhaps PTD will withdraw his
>>>>>> objection.
>>>>> As I said, a current term at that time (why did you pick
>>>>> 1972?) was "Afro-American." "Black American" has never been a
>>>>> term. Even Tony Cooper agreed.
>>>> Of all people?

>>>> There's a rich harvest of "Black Americans" at Google. The
>>>> search term also leads to the alternatives, but there are
>>>> plenty by that name. Even some Black Canadians.

>>> But not the phrase "Black American" used like "black" or
>>> "Colored" or "Negro" or "Afro-American" or "African-American" or
>>> "African American."

>> I was not surprised to see that someone had snipped the words in
>> question. Here they are:

>> Tony

> Me, I think, unless I'm getting confused.

Apologies. Might have been the confusing effect of snippage, or maybe
just an unseemly eagerness for the fray. Or maybe I was misled by the
tone of the response, which is often the same for the two of you.

>> wrote "I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black
>> American way of speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for
>> 'police'". Note that he uses the phrase attributively.

>> You then corrected him ("quaint") because "you won't find "Black
>> American" in ordinary use in American writing or discourse".

>> That is a misrepresentation of the facts. I agree that you won't
>> find the phrase in "American writing or discourse" when it is in
>> attributive use. For other normal uses, google Black American", as
>> I suggested.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-13 18:15:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, May 13, 2018 at 12:52:55 PM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
> On 5/13/2018 10:03 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > CDB wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
> >>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> >>>>> Maybe, but the only time I ever heard ['pəʊ̯lɪjs]
> >>>>> (POE-lease) spoken in real life was in a lift in a not very
> >>>>> salubrious hotel in Chicago (about a block from the
> >>>>> Convention Centre, but it was a block in which a great deal
> >>>>> changed over a short distance). It was spoken by an African
> >>>>> American, to use your preferred term, and I wrongly (perhaps)
> >>>>> jumped too readily to the conclusion that it was a typical
> >>>>> African-American way of pronouncing "police". Actually I
> >>>>> think I read later that Steven Pinker used this very example
> >>>>> to illustrate his argument that "non-standard" pronunciations
> >>>>> should not be regarded as sloppy or lazy.
> >>>> As an aside. If the event you are describing took place in
> >>>> 1972 (if I have pieced things together correctly) then the
> >>>> term "African American" would have been quite inappropriate for
> >>>> that time period. Perhaps PTD will withdraw his objection.
> >>> As I said, a current term at that time (why did you pick 1972?)
> >>> was "Afro-American." "Black American" has never been a term. Even
> >>> Tony Cooper agreed.
> >> Of all people?
>
> >> There's a rich harvest of "Black Americans" at Google. The search
> >> term also leads to the alternatives, but there are plenty by that
> >> name. Even some Black Canadians.
>
> > But not the phrase "Black American" used like "black" or "Colored"
> > or "Negro" or "Afro-American" or "African-American" or "African
> > American."
>
> I was not surprised to see that someone had snipped the words in
> question. Here they are:
>
> Tony

Oh, dear. If you can't tell Athel from Tony, you do have a problem.

> wrote "I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American
> way of speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for 'police'". Note
> that he uses the phrase attributively.

(A clue is that Tony adamantly refuses to have anything to do with
phonetic transcription.)

> You then corrected him ("quaint") because "you won't find "Black
> American" in ordinary use in American writing or discourse".
>
> That is a misrepresentation of the facts. I agree that you won't find
> the phrase in "American writing or discourse" when it is in attributive
> use. For other normal uses, google Black American", as I suggested.

That, however, has nothing to do with how Athel was seen to use the phrase
(though he has since said he didn't intend it that way, but only as an
adjective before a noun -- in which case "black American" would have been
clearer but still not idiomatic, given the existence of both "Black
English" -- the temporally appropriate term if the guess of 1972 was
correct -- and "AAVE").
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-13 05:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-12 22:09:39 +0000, Sam Plusnet said:

> [ ... ]

> As an aside.
> If the event you are describing took place in 1972 (if I have pieced
> things together correctly) then the term "African American" would have
> been quite inappropriate for that time period.
>
> Perhaps PTD will withdraw his objection.

It's perhaps a little late to say this, but I never intended "Black
American" to be interpreted as a single phrase, but as two adjectives
one after another.


--
athel
Don P
2018-05-16 13:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 13/05/2018 1:15 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> It's perhaps a little late to say this, but I never intended "Black
> American" to be interpreted as a single phrase, but as two adjectives
> one after another.

The capitals hint otherwise. Black American looks like (adj.) (noun)
i.e. a black American citizen; only if we wrote black American child
(or similar) would it be (adj.) (adj.) (noun.)

It is a (related but) different point whether we insist on Black and
White rather than black and white (relevant in American political style.
not so much our shared language.) Just lately Canadian journalists have
started to capitalize Indigenous. Earlier they never capitalized
aboriginal or native, although Indian and Inuit were always capitalized
for historic/geographic reasons.

The word indigenous seems to have been preferred since 2007, date of
UNDRIP = United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People.
The 1982 Canadian constitution guarantees aboriginal rights, but the
beneficiaries never liked that word and adopted instead First Nations,
now perhaps superseded by Indigenous.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Garrett Wollman
2018-05-16 19:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <pdhag2$5sv$***@news.albasani.net>, Don P <***@ncf.ca> wrote:

>It is a (related but) different point whether we insist on Black and
>White rather than black and white (relevant in American political style.

Lots of people insist on "Black" and "white", for reasons.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-17 08:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-16 19:02:26 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:

> In article <pdhag2$5sv$***@news.albasani.net>, Don P <***@ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>> It is a (related but) different point whether we insist on Black and
>> White rather than black and white (relevant in American political style.
>
> Lots of people insist on "Black" and "white", for reasons.

I(ve often seen "Black" and "white", however, or maybe I'm thinking of
"Negro" and "white", in the days when one was allowed to say that.


--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-17 11:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, May 17, 2018 at 4:29:52 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-16 19:02:26 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:
>
> > In article <pdhag2$5sv$***@news.albasani.net>, Don P <***@ncf.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> It is a (related but) different point whether we insist on Black and
> >> White rather than black and white (relevant in American political style.
> >
> > Lots of people insist on "Black" and "white", for reasons.
>
> I(ve often seen "Black" and "white", however, or maybe I'm thinking of
> "Negro" and "white", in the days when one was allowed to say that.

Using "Negro" and "white" was standard. Using "Black" and "white" could
conceivably have been simple analogy, but it seems to have been done
more as an assertion of "racial pride," as in "Black is beautiful!"

If "Red Indian" was ever used Over Here, it was long dead by the time
the Black Power movement arose so is unlikely to have been an influence.
If "Red Power" was ever used among Native American activists, it didn't
catch on. There was also the recent canard that that "Red" derived from
the blood of scalpings, which it was claimed was a technique used by
settlers to devastate the Native population that they wished removed.
RH Draney
2018-05-17 11:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 5/17/2018 4:38 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> If "Red Indian" was ever used Over Here, it was long dead by the time
> the Black Power movement arose so is unlikely to have been an influence.
> If "Red Power" was ever used among Native American activists, it didn't
> catch on. There was also the recent canard that that "Red" derived from
> the blood of scalpings, which it was claimed was a technique used by
> settlers to devastate the Native population that they wished removed.

There was a popular rock group made up of Native Americans in the early
1970s...they called themselves "Redbone":

https://youtu.be/Dj0drevGOgA

....r
Don P
2018-05-17 18:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
> On 5/17/2018 4:38 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>> If "Red Indian" was ever used Over Here, it was long dead by the time
>> the Black Power movement arose . . .

On 17/05/2018 7:52 AM, RH Draney wrote:

> There was a popular rock group made up of Native Americans in the early
> 1970s...they called themselves "Redbone":
>
>   https://youtu.be/Dj0drevGOgA

"Bursting forth from Canada’s capital, native Producer and DJ crew A
Tribe Called Red is making an impact on the global electronic scene with
a truly unique sound . . . " says http://atribecalledred.com/bio/

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Tony Cooper
2018-05-12 16:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 12 May 2018 08:37:32 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2018-05-11 12:46:47 +0000, Peter T. Daniels said:
>
>> On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 2:15:36 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>>
>>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>>
>>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>>>
>>>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>>>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
>>>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
>>>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
>>>
>>> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of>
>>> speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for "police".
>>
>> Most African American ("Black American": how quaint!
>
>Why "quaint"?

It's hardly "quaint", but the problem is the capitalization. "Black
American" makes it a term of title, where "black American" would be a
description.

It is about time that the term "African American" is retired, but any
replacement term has to be acceptable to the group in question.

The first thing that will come to some minds is "Why do we need a term
at all?". Theoretically, a valid question but an unrealistic goal.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Adam Funk
2018-05-15 13:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:
>
>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>
>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>> dictionaries but not others.
>>
>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
>
> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".

IIRC, when Jones in _A Conferacy of Dunces_ says it, it's transcribed
"po-lice".


--
Unit tests are like the boy who cried wolf.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-15 13:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-15 15:19:15 +0200, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> said:

> On 2018-05-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>
>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>
>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>>
>>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
>>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
>>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
>>
>> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
>> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".
>
> IIRC, when Jones in _A Conferacy

"Confederacy", innit

> of Dunces_ says it, it's transcribed
>> "po-lice".

Yes, but that just separates the two syllables without indicating how
they are pronounced or where the stress is. I don't pronounce the
"lice" in "police" like the word "lice".


--
athel
Adam Funk
2018-05-15 14:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-15, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2018-05-15 15:19:15 +0200, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> said:
>
>> On 2018-05-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-05-10 22:23:38 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>>
>>>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>>>
>>>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>>> dictionaries but not others.
>>>>
>>>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>>>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
>>>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
>>>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
>>>
>>> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
>>> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".
>>
>> IIRC, when Jones in _A Conferacy
>
> "Confederacy", innit

indeed

>> of Dunces_ says it, it's transcribed
>>> "po-lice".
>
> Yes, but that just separates the two syllables without indicating how
> they are pronounced or where the stress is. I don't pronounce the
> "lice" in "police" like the word "lice".

I'm not entirely sure, but I think the spelling in Jones's speech is
supposed to indicate the POE-lease pronunciation you're talking
about. At least, that's how I heard it in my head when I was reading
the book.


--
Classical Greek lent itself to the promulgation of a rich culture,
indeed, to Western civilization. Computer languages bring us
doorbells that chime with thirty-two tunes, alt.sex.bestiality, and
Tetris clones. (Stoll 1995)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-15 14:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:55:39 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2018-05-15 15:19:15 +0200, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> said:
> > On 2018-05-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> >> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
> >> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".
> > IIRC, when Jones in _A Confederacy of Dunces_ says it, it's transcribed
> >> "po-lice".
>
> Yes, but that just separates the two syllables without indicating how
> they are pronounced or where the stress is. I don't pronounce the
> "lice" in "police" like the word "lice".

His readers know what he means.
Adam Funk
2018-05-15 15:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-05-15, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:55:39 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2018-05-15 15:19:15 +0200, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> said:
>> > On 2018-05-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> >> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
>> >> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".
>> > IIRC, when Jones in _A Confederacy of Dunces_ says it, it's transcribed
>> >> "po-lice".
>>
>> Yes, but that just separates the two syllables without indicating how
>> they are pronounced or where the stress is. I don't pronounce the
>> "lice" in "police" like the word "lice".
>
> His readers know what he means.

That's a sweeping generalization --- assuming familiarity with
dialects used in New Orleans in the 1960s. I *think* it's the one
Athel typed up there, but I'm not sure.


--
Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but
that's not why we do it. --- Richard Feynman
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-15 20:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 11:30:07 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2018-05-15, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:55:39 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2018-05-15 15:19:15 +0200, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> said:
> >> > On 2018-05-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> >> >> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
> >> >> speaking, as with ['pəʊ̯lɪjs] (POE-lease) for "police".
> >> > IIRC, when Jones in _A Confederacy of Dunces_ says it, it's transcribed
> >> >> "po-lice".
> >> Yes, but that just separates the two syllables without indicating how
> >> they are pronounced or where the stress is. I don't pronounce the
> >> "lice" in "police" like the word "lice".
> > His readers know what he means.
>
> That's a sweeping generalization --- assuming familiarity with
> dialects used in New Orleans in the 1960s. I *think* it's the one
> Athel typed up there, but I'm not sure.

Nothing to do with N'Oleans of the 1960s. It's a perfectly well known
variant pronunciation, not even restricted to African American speechways.
Janet
2018-05-15 22:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <af4fb407-bfef-4ed8-a7c4-***@googlegroups.com>,
***@verizon.net says...
>
> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 11:30:07 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> > On 2018-05-15, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:55:39 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > >> On 2018-05-15 15:19:15 +0200, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> said:
> > >> > On 2018-05-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> > >> >> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
> > >> >> speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for "police".
> > >> > IIRC, when Jones in _A Confederacy of Dunces_ says it, it's transcribed
> > >> >> "po-lice".
> > >> Yes, but that just separates the two syllables without indicating how
> > >> they are pronounced or where the stress is. I don't pronounce the
> > >> "lice" in "police" like the word "lice".
> > > His readers know what he means.
> >
> > That's a sweeping generalization --- assuming familiarity with
> > dialects used in New Orleans in the 1960s. I *think* it's the one
> > Athel typed up there, but I'm not sure.
>
> Nothing to do with N'Oleans of the 1960s. It's a perfectly well known
> variant pronunciation, not even restricted to African American speechways.

POE-liss is very commonly heard in Scotland.

Janet.

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Tony Cooper
2018-05-16 00:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 15 May 2018 23:42:11 +0100, Janet <***@home.com> wrote:

>In article <af4fb407-bfef-4ed8-a7c4-***@googlegroups.com>,
>***@verizon.net says...
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 11:30:07 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>> > On 2018-05-15, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > > On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:55:39 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> > >> On 2018-05-15 15:19:15 +0200, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> said:
>> > >> > On 2018-05-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> > >> >> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
>> > >> >> speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for "police".
>> > >> > IIRC, when Jones in _A Confederacy of Dunces_ says it, it's transcribed
>> > >> >> "po-lice".
>> > >> Yes, but that just separates the two syllables without indicating how
>> > >> they are pronounced or where the stress is. I don't pronounce the
>> > >> "lice" in "police" like the word "lice".
>> > > His readers know what he means.
>> >
>> > That's a sweeping generalization --- assuming familiarity with
>> > dialects used in New Orleans in the 1960s. I *think* it's the one
>> > Athel typed up there, but I'm not sure.
>>
>> Nothing to do with N'Oleans of the 1960s. It's a perfectly well known
>> variant pronunciation, not even restricted to African American speechways.
>
> POE-liss is very commonly heard in Scotland.
>

In books - and I'm thinking here of one of my favorite authors, Ian
Rankin - it's spelled "Polis" if my visual memory is good.

I have no idea how that would be pronounced, but "poe-liss" looks
right.

Can't recall how Val McDermid (another favorite) spells it.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2018-05-16 01:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
* Tony Cooper:

> On Tue, 15 May 2018 23:42:11 +0100, Janet <***@home.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <af4fb407-bfef-4ed8-a7c4-***@googlegroups.com>,
>>***@verizon.net says...
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 11:30:07 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> > On 2018-05-15, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> > > On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:55:39 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> > >> On 2018-05-15 15:19:15 +0200, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> said:
>>> > >> > On 2018-05-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>
>>> > >> >> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
>>> > >> >> speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for "police".
>>> > >> > IIRC, when Jones in _A Confederacy of Dunces_ says it, it's transcribed
>>> > >> >> "po-lice".
>>> > >> Yes, but that just separates the two syllables without indicating how
>>> > >> they are pronounced or where the stress is. I don't pronounce the
>>> > >> "lice" in "police" like the word "lice".
>>> > > His readers know what he means.
>>> >
>>> > That's a sweeping generalization --- assuming familiarity with
>>> > dialects used in New Orleans in the 1960s. I *think* it's the one
>>> > Athel typed up there, but I'm not sure.
>>>
>>> Nothing to do with N'Oleans of the 1960s. It's a perfectly well known
>>> variant pronunciation, not even restricted to African American speechways.
>>
>> POE-liss is very commonly heard in Scotland.
>>
>
> In books - and I'm thinking here of one of my favorite authors, Ian
> Rankin - it's spelled "Polis" if my visual memory is good.
>
> I have no idea how that would be pronounced, but "poe-liss" looks
> right.
>
> Can't recall how Val McDermid (another favorite) spells it.

"Polis" would certainly be confusing to me. I would read it as the
Greek root meaning "town" which is the origin of the word "police",
i.e. like "pollis",

Actually, Wiktionary suggest that it is used for Scottish, Irish etc.
versions of "police", and with my pronunciation, given that "pollis" is
listed as an alternative spelling. So, no "poe".

<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/polis#Etymology_2>,
also see the entry for Scots.

--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)
Janet
2018-05-16 12:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...
>
> On Tue, 15 May 2018 23:42:11 +0100, Janet <***@home.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <af4fb407-bfef-4ed8-a7c4-***@googlegroups.com>,
> >***@verizon.net says...
> >>
> >> On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 11:30:07 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> > On 2018-05-15, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> > > On Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 9:55:39 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> > >> On 2018-05-15 15:19:15 +0200, Adam Funk <***@ducksburg.com> said:
> >> > >> > On 2018-05-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>
> >> > >> >> I think of that (possibly quite wrongly) as a Black American way of
> >> > >> >> speaking, as with ['p???l?js] (POE-lease) for "police".
> >> > >> > IIRC, when Jones in _A Confederacy of Dunces_ says it, it's transcribed
> >> > >> >> "po-lice".
> >> > >> Yes, but that just separates the two syllables without indicating how
> >> > >> they are pronounced or where the stress is. I don't pronounce the
> >> > >> "lice" in "police" like the word "lice".
> >> > > His readers know what he means.
> >> >
> >> > That's a sweeping generalization --- assuming familiarity with
> >> > dialects used in New Orleans in the 1960s. I *think* it's the one
> >> > Athel typed up there, but I'm not sure.
> >>
> >> Nothing to do with N'Oleans of the 1960s. It's a perfectly well known
> >> variant pronunciation, not even restricted to African American speechways.
> >
> > POE-liss is very commonly heard in Scotland.
> >
>
> In books - and I'm thinking here of one of my favorite authors, Ian
> Rankin - it's spelled "Polis" if my visual memory is good.

That's to distinguish it from written police, which English readers
pronounce as puh-leese.
>
> I have no idea how that would be pronounced, but "poe-liss" looks
> right.

That's how polis is pronounced, with emphasis on the First syllable.

> Can't recall how Val McDermid (another favorite) spells it.

Janet.



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Garrett Wollman
2018-05-11 15:52:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@mid.crommatograph.info>,
Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>
>To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>dictionaries but not others.

OED shows five BrE pronunciations and two AmE ones.
BrE: /ᵻˌlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌɛlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌɛlᵻkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌɪlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌiːlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/
AmE: /əˌlɛkˈtrɑnɪk/, /iˌlɛkˈtrɑnɪk/

The barred-small-caps-I (/ᵻˌ/) represents what would be /@/ ~ /I/ in
ASCII IPA notation.

The same variety of initial vowels is heard in many other words with
classical origins that begin with "e"; it's not surprising that the
pronunciations would drift once cut loose from their Latin and Greek
origins, especially when you consider the normal stress-induced
pronunciation changes. Compare "electron", "electronic", "electrical"
-- and for that matter, "economy", "economical", "ecology",
"ecological" (the same Greek root but with two different etymological
routes).

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Quinn C
2018-05-11 21:36:57 UTC
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* Garrett Wollman:

> In article <***@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>>recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>>the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>
>>To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>>beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>>issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>>dictionaries but not others.
>
> OED shows five BrE pronunciations and two AmE ones.
> BrE: /ᵻˌlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌɛlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌɛlᵻkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌɪlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌiːlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/
> AmE: /əˌlɛkˈtrɑnɪk/, /iˌlɛkˈtrɑnɪk/
>
> The barred-small-caps-I (/ᵻˌ/) represents what would be /@/ ~ /I/ in
> ASCII IPA notation.
>
> The same variety of initial vowels is heard in many other words with
> classical origins that begin with "e"; it's not surprising that the
> pronunciations would drift once cut loose from their Latin and Greek
> origins, especially when you consider the normal stress-induced
> pronunciation changes. Compare "electron", "electronic", "electrical"
> -- and for that matter, "economy", "economical", "ecology",
> "ecological" (the same Greek root but with two different etymological
> routes).

I remember discussing "presentation" before.

In all those cases, my preference may be influenced by two
circumstances in my background: I may prefer the pronunciations I got
used to first (with common words, often BrE ones, but for rarer ones,
all bets are off), and if there's a choice, I may intuitively prefer
those pronunciations that are closer to German or French. Neither is
likely to lead to much consistency.

--
WinErr 008: Erroneous error. Nothing is wrong.
Peter Moylan
2018-05-12 03:17:29 UTC
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On 12/05/18 01:52, Garrett Wollman wrote:

> OED shows five BrE pronunciations and two AmE ones.
> BrE: /ᵻˌlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌɛlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌɛlᵻkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌɪlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/, /ˌiːlɛkˈtrɒnɪk/
> AmE: /əˌlɛkˈtrɑnɪk/,/iˌlɛkˈtrɑnɪk/

That's an excellent example showing why MIME headers are desirable.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Whiskers
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> Wrote in message:
> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>
> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
> dictionaries but not others.
>
> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
> strangely over-articulated at the end.

I (BrE) remember some of the characters in "The Beverley
Hillbillies" TV series, talking rather like that. We thought it
was heeelaehrious.

--
^^^^^^^^^^
Whiskers
~~~~~~~~~~


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
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Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-11 21:30:00 UTC
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On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 5:24:39 PM UTC-4, Whiskers Catwheezel wrote:
> Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> Wrote in message:

> > I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
> > recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
> > the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
> >
> > To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
> > beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
> > issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
> > dictionaries but not others.
> >
> > In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
> > me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
> > somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
> > strangely over-articulated at the end.
>
> I (BrE) remember some of the characters in "The Beverley
> Hillbillies" TV series, talking rather like that. We thought it
> was heeelaehrious.

Hillbillies talk "Elizabethan English," dontcha know.
Quinn C
2018-05-11 21:41:56 UTC
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* Whiskers:

> Quinn C <***@crommatograph.info> Wrote in message:
>> I had to take a course at my company that included listening to a
>> recorded speaker, presumably a professional. After a few repetitions,
>> the talk of "eelectronic records" etc. got on my nerves.
>>
>> To my surprise, my preferred pronunciation, with an /E/ at the
>> beginning, isn't even an option in most US dictionaries. I have no
>> issue with /I/, which I hear regularly. /i:/ is listed by some
>> dictionaries but not others.
>>
>> In this specific case, it might be a misinterpretation of her accent by
>> me, as I also heard her say "eessential". And it may only be her,
>> somewhat artificial, professional reading voice. Some other words were
>> strangely over-articulated at the end.
>
> I (BrE) remember some of the characters in "The Beverley
> Hillbillies" TV series, talking rather like that. We thought it
> was heeelaehrious.

That's still better than "highlarious" <shudder>.

--
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is
to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies.
And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.
-- C. A. R. Hoare
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