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If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define the "sweating system" and deplorable work Conditions?
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♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
2017-05-18 01:39:38 UTC
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If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions? Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
David Kleinecke
2017-05-18 02:33:37 UTC
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Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions? Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
There is a second meaning of sweat (probably historically
the same sense) - per google"

heat (chopped vegetables) slowly in a pan with a small
amount of fat, so that they cook in their own juices.
"sweat the celery and onions with olive oil and seasoning"

(there is third meaning related to soldering which we can
ignore).

Sweatshops are so called because the proprietors were forcing
the workers like vegetables cooking in a pan.

It would be interesting to know when the term started.
Ross
2017-05-18 03:10:36 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions? Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
There is a second meaning of sweat (probably historically
the same sense) - per google"
heat (chopped vegetables) slowly in a pan with a small
amount of fat, so that they cook in their own juices.
"sweat the celery and onions with olive oil and seasoning"
(there is third meaning related to soldering which we can
ignore).
Sweatshops are so called because the proprietors were forcing
the workers like vegetables cooking in a pan.
It would be interesting to know when the term started.
I don't think it's from vegetables. Rather, "sweat" has been used
as a causative ("cause to sweat") since the late 16th century.
Causing a sweat for therapeutic purposes (1621); giving a horse
a run (1590); subjecting a prisoner to severe interrogation (1764);
then in the 19th century applied to making people work hard: "to employ
in hard or excessive work at very low wages" (1879). This is the
source of "sweatshop", "sweated labour" and so on.

The vegetables have been sweating for a long time: "To exude, or to
gather, moisture so that it appears in drops on the surface." (OE, 893)
The causative of that ("cause to exude moisture, force the moisture
out of") appears in the 17th century, and the specific cooking sense
from 1877.
Ross
2017-05-18 03:18:11 UTC
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Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions? Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
By the way, what made you think it was *not* by perspiration?
b***@gmail.com
2017-05-18 10:43:38 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions? Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
By the way, what made you think it was *not* by perspiration?
At first I too thought "sweating' was about perspiration and warm working conditions. But the way it was being seemed to be more and more about a convenient misnomer than anything else. Also, in the documenatry I was watching, the term "sweating system" seemed to be something more about the terms of management and ownership whom just as often shared in the poor working conditions of their employees. Also in a lot of the photos, workers were just as often cold and wrapped up in "sweaters" to keep warm, and I thought maybe perhaps "sweating" had something uniquely more to do with the dry goods business but was lost in translation.
Ross
2017-05-18 11:25:48 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Ross
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions? Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
By the way, what made you think it was *not* by perspiration?
At first I too thought "sweating' was about perspiration and warm working conditions. But the way it was being seemed to be more and more about a convenient misnomer than anything else. Also, in the documenatry I was watching, the term "sweating system" seemed to be something more about the terms of management and ownership whom just as often shared in the poor working conditions of their employees. Also in a lot of the photos, workers were just as often cold and wrapped up in "sweaters" to keep warm, and I thought maybe perhaps "sweating" had something uniquely more to do with the dry goods business but was lost in translation.
As I hope you've seen in my other post, the word was extended,
metaphorically, from "cause to [literally] sweat", to "cause to
work hard (for little pay)". This shift of meaning happened in
the 19th century. After that, regardless of whether they
are hot or cold while they are working, they are still said to be
"sweated" in a "sweatshop".

You said that you couldn't find the origin of this term. Where did
you look? I can't believe that any dictionary would tell you anything but
the same clear and obvious story.
Peter Moylan
2017-05-18 16:46:51 UTC
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Post by Ross
You said that you couldn't find the origin of this term. Where did
you look? I can't believe that any dictionary would tell you anything but
the same clear and obvious story.
Do you realise that you are replying to Bozo de Niro?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Ross
2017-05-18 21:46:55 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ross
You said that you couldn't find the origin of this term. Where did
you look? I can't believe that any dictionary would tell you anything but
the same clear and obvious story.
Do you realise that you are replying to Bozo de Niro?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Is he the same as the musical OP?
bosod... raises odd questions, and seems a bit resistant to plain
explanations, but he's not the only one.
Is there something else I should know about him?
b***@gmail.com
2017-05-19 12:37:14 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Ross
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions? Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
By the way, what made you think it was *not* by perspiration?
At first I too thought "sweating' was about perspiration and warm working conditions. But the way it was being seemed to be more and more about a convenient misnomer than anything else. Also, in the documenatry I was watching, the term "sweating system" seemed to be something more about the terms of management and ownership whom just as often shared in the poor working conditions of their employees. Also in a lot of the photos, workers were just as often cold and wrapped up in "sweaters" to keep warm, and I thought maybe perhaps "sweating" had something uniquely more to do with the dry goods business but was lost in translation.
As I hope you've seen in my other post, the word was extended,
metaphorically, from "cause to [literally] sweat", to "cause to
work hard (for little pay)". This shift of meaning happened in
the 19th century. After that, regardless of whether they
are hot or cold while they are working, they are still said to be
"sweated" in a "sweatshop".
You said that you couldn't find the origin of this term. Where did
you look? I can't believe that any dictionary would tell you anything but
the same clear and obvious story.
Got it, thank you.
b***@gmail.com
2017-05-20 03:12:48 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Ross
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions? Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
By the way, what made you think it was *not* by perspiration?
At first I too thought "sweating' was about perspiration and warm working conditions. But the way it was being seemed to be more and more about a convenient misnomer than anything else. Also, in the documenatry I was watching, the term "sweating system" seemed to be something more about the terms of management and ownership whom just as often shared in the poor working conditions of their employees. Also in a lot of the photos, workers were just as often cold and wrapped up in "sweaters" to keep warm, and I thought maybe perhaps "sweating" had something uniquely more to do with the dry goods business but was lost in translation.
As I hope you've seen in my other post, the word was extended,
metaphorically, from "cause to [literally] sweat", to "cause to
work hard (for little pay)". This shift of meaning happened in
the 19th century. After that, regardless of whether they
are hot or cold while they are working, they are still said to be
"sweated" in a "sweatshop".
You said that you couldn't find the origin of this term. Where did
you look? I can't believe that any dictionary would tell you anything but
the same clear and obvious story.
Got it, thank you.
seems like the derivations of sweat esp as in "sweating it out" has come to mean more about the stress and worry associated with the "system" than any demands of physical exertion
b***@gmail.com
2017-05-20 05:02:00 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Ross
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions? Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
By the way, what made you think it was *not* by perspiration?
At first I too thought "sweating' was about perspiration and warm working conditions. But the way it was being seemed to be more and more about a convenient misnomer than anything else. Also, in the documenatry I was watching, the term "sweating system" seemed to be something more about the terms of management and ownership whom just as often shared in the poor working conditions of their employees. Also in a lot of the photos, workers were just as often cold and wrapped up in "sweaters" to keep warm, and I thought maybe perhaps "sweating" had something uniquely more to do with the dry goods business but was lost in translation.
As I hope you've seen in my other post, the word was extended,
metaphorically, from "cause to [literally] sweat", to "cause to
work hard (for little pay)". This shift of meaning happened in
the 19th century. After that, regardless of whether they
are hot or cold while they are working, they are still said to be
"sweated" in a "sweatshop".
You said that you couldn't find the origin of this term. Where did
you look? I can't believe that any dictionary would tell you anything but
the same clear and obvious story.
Got it, thank you.
seems like the derivations of sweat esp as in "sweating it out" has come to mean more about the stress and worry associated with the "sweating system" than any demands of physical exertion
reminds me of breaking out as in 'cold sweat' and 'flop sweat'
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-05-18 09:26:08 UTC
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On Wed, 17 May 2017 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT), ?? Working in the Coal Mine ??
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define
the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions?
Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
It does come from the idea of sweating as a result of working hard.

OED:

sweat-shop n. orig. U.S. a workshop in a dwelling-house, in which
work is done under the *sweating system* (or, by extension, under
any system of sub-contract); also fig. and attrib.

sweating, n.

1.
a. Emission of sweat from the pores of the skin;

2.
a. Toiling, labouring, severe exertion.

b. spec. (a) The practice of doing piece-work overtime; (b) the
practice of exacting hard work from employees for low wages, esp.
under a middleman by sub-contract. (See sweat v. 5c, 6b)

sweat, v.

5.c. spec. Formerly, in the tailoring trade, To work at home
overtime.

6. trans.
a. To exact hard work from.

b. spec. To employ in hard or excessive work at very low wages, esp.
under a system of subcontract.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Whiskers
2017-05-22 18:00:25 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 17 May 2017 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT), ?? Working in the Coal Mine ??
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define
the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions?
Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
It does come from the idea of sweating as a result of working hard.
sweat-shop n. orig. U.S. a workshop in a dwelling-house, in which
work is done under the *sweating system* (or, by extension, under
any system of sub-contract); also fig. and attrib.
sweating, n.
1.
a. Emission of sweat from the pores of the skin;
2.
a. Toiling, labouring, severe exertion.
b. spec. (a) The practice of doing piece-work overtime; (b) the
practice of exacting hard work from employees for low wages, esp.
under a middleman by sub-contract. (See sweat v. 5c, 6b)
sweat, v.
5.c. spec. Formerly, in the tailoring trade, To work at home
overtime.
6. trans.
a. To exact hard work from.
b. spec. To employ in hard or excessive work at very low wages, esp.
under a system of subcontract.
I think the appellations 'sweated' 'sweatable' 'sweatshop' etc were
first coined by socialist commentators and philosophers examining the
practices in British factories during the early Industrial Revolution
(middle of the 18th century).
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-05-22 18:44:15 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 17 May 2017 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT), ?? Working in the Coal Mine ??
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define
the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions?
Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
It does come from the idea of sweating as a result of working hard.
sweat-shop n. orig. U.S. a workshop in a dwelling-house, in which
work is done under the *sweating system* (or, by extension, under
any system of sub-contract); also fig. and attrib.
sweating, n.
1.
a. Emission of sweat from the pores of the skin;
2.
a. Toiling, labouring, severe exertion.
b. spec. (a) The practice of doing piece-work overtime; (b) the
practice of exacting hard work from employees for low wages, esp.
under a middleman by sub-contract. (See sweat v. 5c, 6b)
sweat, v.
5.c. spec. Formerly, in the tailoring trade, To work at home
overtime.
6. trans.
a. To exact hard work from.
b. spec. To employ in hard or excessive work at very low wages, esp.
under a system of subcontract.
I think the appellations 'sweated' 'sweatable' 'sweatshop' etc were
first coined by socialist commentators and philosophers examining the
practices in British factories during the early Industrial Revolution
(middle of the 18th century).
They might well have adopted those words. However, it seems that a
"sweat-shop" was, as quoted above and below, a place specifically not in
a factory.
The OED entry includes:

sweat-shop n. orig. U.S. a workshop in a dwelling-house, in which
work is done under the *sweating system* (or, by extension, under
any system of sub-contract); also fig. and attrib.

1892 Charities Rev. Jan. 115 What relaxation or excitement can a
car-driver or a sweat-shop tailor get except by drinking?
1895 Westm. Gaz. 2 Nov. 2/3 All but fifteen of the 385 wholesale
clothing manufacturers in New York have their goods made in ‘sweat
shops’.
1900 F. H. Stoddard Evol. Eng. Novel 172 The contract system—the
familiar sweat-shop system of more modern days.
1906 O. C. Malvery Soul Market xi. 185 Under the ‘Sweat-shop’
Law of the State of New York, the manufacture of articles of
wearing apparel is now specifically forbidden in any tenement
house without a license.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan
2017-05-23 02:27:23 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 17 May 2017 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT), ?? Working in the Coal Mine ??
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define
the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions?
Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
It does come from the idea of sweating as a result of working hard.
Terms like "sweatshop" might be relatively new, but the "working hard"
connection has been around for yonks. Having to get your food "by the
sweat of your brows" can be found in Genesis.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
David Kleinecke
2017-05-23 02:42:39 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 17 May 2017 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT), ?? Working in the Coal Mine ??
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define
the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions?
Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
It does come from the idea of sweating as a result of working hard.
Terms like "sweatshop" might be relatively new, but the "working hard"
connection has been around for yonks. Having to get your food "by the
sweat of your brows" can be found in Genesis.
Wycliff, Tyndale or King James' Men?

The was (perhaps still is) a verb "swink" meaning "work hard".
Whiskers
2017-05-23 11:49:27 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 17 May 2017 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT), ?? Working in the Coal Mine ??
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define
the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions?
Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
It does come from the idea of sweating as a result of working hard.
Terms like "sweatshop" might be relatively new, but the "working hard"
connection has been around for yonks. Having to get your food "by the
sweat of your brows" can be found in Genesis.
Wycliff, Tyndale or King James' Men?
Strong's Concordance (of the AV) has the Hebrew "aph: a nostril, nose,
face, anger", where AV has "In the sweat of thy face". Wycliffe has "in
[the] sweat of thy cheer, [or (thy) face,". I don't know who first
chose 'brow' instead of 'face'; NIV has that but I'm fairly sure earlier
translations had it too. The 'sweat' part clearly comes from the Hebrew
"zeah: sweat". <http://biblehub.com/hebrew/2188.htm>
Post by David Kleinecke
The was (perhaps still is) a verb "swink" meaning "work hard".
New to me.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-05-23 12:18:26 UTC
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Post by Whiskers
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 17 May 2017 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT), ?? Working in the Coal Mine ??
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define
the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions?
Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
It does come from the idea of sweating as a result of working hard.
Terms like "sweatshop" might be relatively new, but the "working hard"
connection has been around for yonks. Having to get your food "by the
sweat of your brows" can be found in Genesis.
Wycliff, Tyndale or King James' Men?
Strong's Concordance (of the AV) has the Hebrew "aph: a nostril, nose,
face, anger", where AV has "In the sweat of thy face". Wycliffe has "in
[the] sweat of thy cheer, [or (thy) face,". I don't know who first
chose 'brow' instead of 'face'; NIV has that but I'm fairly sure earlier
translations had it too. The 'sweat' part clearly comes from the Hebrew
"zeah: sweat". <http://biblehub.com/hebrew/2188.htm>
Post by David Kleinecke
The was (perhaps still is) a verb "swink" meaning "work hard".
New to me.
The OED has it and marks it archaic and dialect.

Etymology: Old English swincan , past tense swanc , swuncon , past
participle *swuncen , parallel formation to swingan , swing v.1

a. intr. To labour, toil, work hard; to exert oneself, take trouble.
Often alliterating with sweat.

OE Beowulf 517 Git on wæteres æht seofon niht swuncon.
c1000 Ælfric Homilies II. 441 Martha swanc, and Maria sæt æmtig.
<big snip>
1885 R. L. Stevenson Prince Otto ii. i. 68 The fellow swinking
in a byre, whom fools point out for the exception.

†b. To journey toilsomely, travel. Obs. rare—1.

2. trans.
†a. with cognate obj.; also, to gain by labour. Obs.

†b. To cause to toil; to set to hard work, to overwork; refl.
= sense 1. Obs.

{The most recent quotations for those three senses are from the
1300s}

†3. trans. and intr. To drink deeply, tipple. (Cf. swinge v.1 2,
swink n. 3) Obs.

{all quotations fro this sense from the 1500s}
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
David Kleinecke
2017-05-23 16:45:14 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Whiskers
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 17 May 2017 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT), ?? Working in the Coal Mine ??
Post by ♪♫ Working in the Coal Mine ♫♪
If not by perspiration, how did sweat and sweatshops come to define
the "sweating system" and deplorable working conditions?
Can't find the origin of this terminology, but I did find slumming.
It does come from the idea of sweating as a result of working hard.
Terms like "sweatshop" might be relatively new, but the "working hard"
connection has been around for yonks. Having to get your food "by the
sweat of your brows" can be found in Genesis.
Wycliff, Tyndale or King James' Men?
Strong's Concordance (of the AV) has the Hebrew "aph: a nostril, nose,
face, anger", where AV has "In the sweat of thy face". Wycliffe has "in
[the] sweat of thy cheer, [or (thy) face,". I don't know who first
chose 'brow' instead of 'face'; NIV has that but I'm fairly sure earlier
translations had it too. The 'sweat' part clearly comes from the Hebrew
"zeah: sweat". <http://biblehub.com/hebrew/2188.htm>
Post by David Kleinecke
The was (perhaps still is) a verb "swink" meaning "work hard".
New to me.
The OED has it and marks it archaic and dialect.
Etymology: Old English swincan , past tense swanc , swuncon , past
participle *swuncen , parallel formation to swingan , swing v.1
a. intr. To labour, toil, work hard; to exert oneself, take trouble.
Often alliterating with sweat.
OE Beowulf 517 Git on wæteres æht seofon niht swuncon.
c1000 Ælfric Homilies II. 441 Martha swanc, and Maria sæt æmtig.
<big snip>
1885 R. L. Stevenson Prince Otto ii. i. 68 The fellow swinking
in a byre, whom fools point out for the exception.
†b. To journey toilsomely, travel. Obs. rare—1.
2. trans.
†a. with cognate obj.; also, to gain by labour. Obs.
†b. To cause to toil; to set to hard work, to overwork; refl.
= sense 1. Obs.
{The most recent quotations for those three senses are from the
1300s}
I think I observed it used in the hard work sense in Spenser.
But he sought out old words,

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