Discussion:
Fracases
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Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-11 06:52:05 UTC
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Today Jerry Coyne's web page at
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/ (he doesn't like the term
President of William and Mary responds after BLM disruption of ACLU
talk; promises no more fracases
I don't much use the word "fracas" in English, but if I did I would
probably treat it as invariant in the plural. Is the pronunciation
anglicized in American English?
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-10-11 09:54:32 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 08:52:05 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Today Jerry Coyne's web page at
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/ (he doesn't like the term
President of William and Mary responds after BLM disruption of ACLU
talk; promises no more fracases
I don't much use the word "fracas" in English, but if I did I would
probably treat it as invariant in the plural. Is the pronunciation
anglicized in American English?
According to the OED the BrE and AmE pronudciations are different. In
BrE the s in "fracas" is silent and in AmE it is sounded.

So it is logical in AmE to pluralize it by adding "es".

I, too, have little use for the word and even less for the plural; one
fracas at a time is enough.
I think that in my BrE speech I'd sound the s for the plural. I'd
probably treat the spelling as invariant.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan
2017-10-11 10:02:47 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 08:52:05 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Today Jerry Coyne's web page at
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/ (he doesn't like the term
President of William and Mary responds after BLM disruption of ACLU
talk; promises no more fracases
I don't much use the word "fracas" in English, but if I did I would
probably treat it as invariant in the plural. Is the pronunciation
anglicized in American English?
According to the OED the BrE and AmE pronudciations are different. In
BrE the s in "fracas" is silent and in AmE it is sounded.
So it is logical in AmE to pluralize it by adding "es".
I, too, have little use for the word and even less for the plural; one
fracas at a time is enough.
I think that in my BrE speech I'd sound the s for the plural. I'd
probably treat the spelling as invariant.
AOL.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2017-10-11 16:41:37 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 08:52:05 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Today Jerry Coyne's web page at
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/ (he doesn't like the term
President of William and Mary responds after BLM disruption of ACLU
talk; promises no more fracases
I don't much use the word "fracas" in English, but if I did I would
probably treat it as invariant in the plural. Is the pronunciation
anglicized in American English?
According to the OED the BrE and AmE pronudciations are different. In
BrE the s in "fracas" is silent and in AmE it is sounded.
So it is logical in AmE to pluralize it by adding "es".
I, too, have little use for the word and even less for the plural; one
fracas at a time is enough.
I think that in my BrE speech I'd sound the s for the plural. I'd
probably treat the spelling as invariant.
Also, the majority AmE pronunciation seems to be fraykus, where I
was only familiar with frackus.
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
Joy Beeson
2017-10-12 02:23:08 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:41:37 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Also, the majority AmE pronunciation seems to be fraykus, where I
was only familiar with frackus.
I, too, say "frackus". At least I would have said "frackus" if I had
ever used the word.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Quinn C
2017-10-12 04:08:37 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:41:37 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Also, the majority AmE pronunciation seems to be fraykus, where I
was only familiar with frackus.
I, too, say "frackus". At least I would have said "frackus" if I had
ever used the word.
My being "more familiar" might indeed go back to hearing the word
spoken once.

OTOH, as an occasional consumer of Leo Laporte shows, I had a good
exposure to "foofaraw"s. I was even able to spot once in a
transcript that the transcriber hadn't recognized the word. LL's
also a regular user of "folderol".
--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945
Snidely
2017-10-12 09:54:59 UTC
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Joy Beeson suggested that ...
Post by Joy Beeson
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:41:37 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Also, the majority AmE pronunciation seems to be fraykus, where I
was only familiar with frackus.
I, too, say "frackus". At least I would have said "frackus" if I had
ever used the word.
I'm afraid I think of it as fraw-cus.

/dps
--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-12 16:41:38 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:41:37 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Also, the majority AmE pronunciation seems to be fraykus, where I
was only familiar with frackus.
I, too, say "frackus". At least I would have said "frackus" if I had
ever used the word.
/Usage Note:/ The traditional pronunciation of /fracas/ has a long
/a/ in the first syllable, rhyming roughly with "break us." In the
2015 survey, only 59 percent of the Usage Panel found this
pronunciation acceptable, and barely a third of the Panel preferred
it. The pronunciation with a short /a/ in the first syllable, rhyming
roughly with "track us," is acceptable to 81 percent of the Panel and
is in fact preferred by two-thirds of it, offering another example of
how the pronunciation of a word can shift over time. · In British
English, fracas is commonly pronounced frăk'ä and frə-kä' (which is
[sic] similar to the French pronunciation).

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=fracas
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2017-10-12 17:33:52 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
In British
English, fracas is commonly pronounced frăk'ä and frə-kä' (which is
[sic] similar to the French pronunciation).
What's to [sic]?
--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english
b***@aol.com
2017-10-12 17:48:48 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
In British
English, fracas is commonly pronounced frăk'ä and frə-kä' (which is
[sic] similar to the French pronunciation).
What's to [sic]?
Probably that frə-kä' is arguably far from similar to the French
pronunciation.
Post by Quinn C
--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-12 21:27:35 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
In British
English, fracas is commonly pronounced frăk'ä and frə-kä' (which is
[sic] similar to the French pronunciation).
What's to [sic]?
"Is" instead of "are" with a plural subject.

I suppose they could have meant that frə-kä' is similar to French and
frăk'ä isn't, but I don't see much of a case for that. Regardless
of where you think the accent should go in an anglicization, the
TRAP vowel is surely closer to the French /a/ than a schwa is.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2017-10-13 03:35:28 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
In British
English, fracas is commonly pronounced frăk'ä and frə-kä' (which is
[sic] similar to the French pronunciation).
What's to [sic]?
"Is" instead of "are" with a plural subject.
I suppose they could have meant that frə-kä' is similar to French and
frăk'ä isn't, but I don't see much of a case for that. Regardless
of where you think the accent should go in an anglicization, the
TRAP vowel is surely closer to the French /a/ than a schwa is.
Right. I think my spontaneous take was on the lines of
"pronouncing it frăk'ä or frə-kä' is similar to how the French
pronounce it", but the actual grammar of the original is far from
that.
--
ASCII to ASCII, DOS to DOS
CDB
2017-10-13 11:30:32 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
In British English, fracas is commonly pronounced frăk'ä and
frə-kä' (which is [sic] similar to the French pronunciation).
What's to [sic]?
"Is" instead of "are" with a plural subject. I suppose they could
have meant that frə-kä' is similar to French and frăk'ä isn't, but I
don't see much of a case for that. Regardless of where you think the
accent should go in an anglicization, the TRAP vowel is surely closer
to the French /a/ than a schwa is.
I thought it was for the use of a singular verb with two subjects. It
was the verb that was sicced.
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-13 13:37:41 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
In British English, fracas is commonly pronounced frăk'ä and
frə-kä' (which is [sic] similar to the French pronunciation).
What's to [sic]?
"Is" instead of "are" with a plural subject. I suppose they could
have meant that frə-kä' is similar to French and frăk'ä isn't, but I
don't see much of a case for that.  Regardless of where you think the
accent should go in an anglicization, the TRAP vowel is surely closer
to the French /a/ than a schwa is.
I thought it was for the use of a singular verb with two subjects.  It
was the verb that was sicced.
Precisely.
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@aol.com
2017-10-13 16:30:45 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
In British
English, fracas is commonly pronounced frăk'ä and frə-kä' (which is
[sic] similar to the French pronunciation).
What's to [sic]?
"Is" instead of "are" with a plural subject.
I suppose they could have meant that frə-kä' is similar to French and
frăk'ä isn't, but I don't see much of a case for that.
Precisely, the surprise could have justified your "sic".

Another interpretation (mine, initially) could be that you were surprised
that both frăk'ä and frə-kä' were referred to as similar to the French
pronunciation, in which case the parenthetical part of your sentence could
refer to _the fact_ that "fracas is commonly pronounced frăk'ä and frə-kä'
and the singular "is" could be normal.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Regardless
of where you think the accent should go in an anglicization, the
TRAP vowel is surely closer to the French /a/ than a schwa is.
Indeed, but IMHO, the position of stress prevails here, and
frə-kä' is a "lesser evil" than frăk'ä.
Post by Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-12 02:14:06 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Today Jerry Coyne's web page at
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/ (he doesn't like the term
President of William and Mary responds after BLM disruption of ACLU
talk; promises no more fracases
I don't much use the word "fracas" in English, but if I did I would
probably treat it as invariant in the plural. Is the pronunciation
anglicized in American English?
Yes.

ObOldJoke, supposed to be real court testimony:

"You too were shot in the fracas."

"No, sir, I was shot midway between the fracas and the navel."

(The Spanish cognate works too, at least in Mexico.

--¿Le dieron en la refriega?

--No, doctor, en el ombligo.)
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@aol.com
2017-10-12 15:10:48 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Today Jerry Coyne's web page at
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/ (he doesn't like the term
President of William and Mary responds after BLM disruption of ACLU
talk; promises no more fracases
I don't much use the word "fracas" in English, but if I did I would
probably treat it as invariant in the plural. Is the pronunciation
anglicized in American English?
Yes.
"You too were shot in the fracas."
"No, sir, I was shot midway between the fracas and the navel."
(The Spanish cognate works too, at least in Mexico.
--¿Le dieron en la refriega?
--No, doctor, en el ombligo.)
And there's also this:

Barber: "Woud you like to have an egg shampoo, sir?"
Customer: "No thanks, a head shampoo will be just fine".

(Translated from French, not sure it quite works in English.)
Post by Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Jack Campin
2017-10-12 16:38:36 UTC
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Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
"You too were shot in the fracas."
"No, sir, I was shot midway between the fracas and the navel."
(The Spanish cognate works too, at least in Mexico.
--¿Le dieron en la refriega?
--No, doctor, en el ombligo.)
Barber: "Woud you like to have an egg shampoo, sir?"
Customer: "No thanks, a head shampoo will be just fine".
(Translated from French, not sure it quite works in English.)
Visitor to a Scottish mansion with a mounted stag's head on
the wall:

- Did you get him in the Trossachs?
- No, right between the eyes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-12 16:43:25 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Today Jerry Coyne's web page at
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/ (he doesn't like the term
President of William and Mary responds after BLM disruption of ACLU
talk; promises no more fracases
I don't much use the word "fracas" in English, but if I did I would
probably treat it as invariant in the plural. Is the pronunciation
anglicized in American English?
Yes.
"You too were shot in the fracas."
"No, sir, I was shot midway between the fracas and the navel."
(The Spanish cognate works too, at least in Mexico.
--¿Le dieron en la refriega?
--No, doctor, en el ombligo.)
(Okay, not really a cognate.)
--
Jerry Friedman
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