Discussion:
The usual depth-charge shivaree
Add Reply
harry newton
2017-11-29 03:13:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Verbatim sentences (emphasis mine):
"After the usual depth-charge *shivaree*, Sculpin swam clear."

Copyright 1949, Samuel Eliot Morison's "History of United States Naval
Operations In WWII", Volume IV, "Coral Sea, Midway, and Submarine Actions",
page 226.

shivaree
modification of French charivari
a noisy mock serenade to a newly married couple]
First Known Use: 1843
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shivaree>

In 19th century rural America, a newly-married couple might be treated to a
mock serenade, performed with pots, pans, homemade instruments, and other
noisemakers. Such cacophonous serenades were traditionally considered
especially appropriate for second marriages or for unions deemed
incongruous because of an age discrepancy or some other cause. In the
eastern U.S. this custom, imported from rural England, was simply called a
"serenade" or known under various local names. In much of the central U.S.
and Canada, however, it was called a "shivaree," a loan from French
charivari, which denotes the same folk custom in France. In more recent
years, "shivaree" has also developed broader senses; it is sometimes used
to mean simply "a cacophony" or "a celebration."
Ross
2017-11-29 10:23:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry newton
"After the usual depth-charge *shivaree*, Sculpin swam clear."
Copyright 1949, Samuel Eliot Morison's "History of United States Naval
Operations In WWII", Volume IV, "Coral Sea, Midway, and Submarine Actions",
page 226.
shivaree
modification of French charivari
a noisy mock serenade to a newly married couple]
First Known Use: 1843
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shivaree>
In 19th century rural America, a newly-married couple might be treated to a
mock serenade, performed with pots, pans, homemade instruments, and other
noisemakers. Such cacophonous serenades were traditionally considered
especially appropriate for second marriages or for unions deemed
incongruous because of an age discrepancy or some other cause. In the
eastern U.S. this custom, imported from rural England, was simply called a
"serenade" or known under various local names. In much of the central U.S.
and Canada, however, it was called a "shivaree," a loan from French
charivari, which denotes the same folk custom in France. In more recent
years, "shivaree" has also developed broader senses; it is sometimes used
to mean simply "a cacophony" or "a celebration."
Not likely that wedding celebrations were going on in this context. So
it means "a lot of noise". Morison's vocabulary seems a little more lively
than one might expect from a sober naval historian.
harry newton
2017-11-29 11:23:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross
Not likely that wedding celebrations were going on in this context. So
it means "a lot of noise". Morison's vocabulary seems a little more lively
than one might expect from a sober naval historian.
I agree.

Morrison almost makes light of the fact the Japanese were dropping depth
charges on the Sculpin submarine.

Here is more context, all of which is verbatim, including punctuation:

begin quote:
Let us try to see this campaign through the eyes of the submarine skipper,
for whom each patrol was an operation in itself. Sculpin (Lieutenant
Commander Lucius H. Chappell) of the old Asiatic Fleet was one of the first
fleet subs to take stations off New Britain. Early in the morning of 27
September she possibly damaged a tanker but then found out that she was up
against the Japanese varsity. For hours, two well coordinated destroyers
tossed depth charges down on her, tearing a small hole in the pressure hull
which had the crew sweating and bailing but not force them to break off
their patrol. On 7 October Chappell saw a destroyer and a transport in his
periscope, and was tempted to retaliate on the destroyer, but "prudence
prevailed over personal animosity" and his torpedoes sank the 4700-ton
transport. After the usual depth-charge shivaree, Sculpin swam clear.
end quote:

The only thing I couldn't type verbatim was that Morison spells words like
"coordinated" with the double-dot over the second "o" for some strange
reason, which is something I've never seen before in an English-language
book.

Have you?
Cheryl
2017-11-29 11:28:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry newton
Post by Ross
Not likely that wedding celebrations were going on in this context. So
it means "a lot of noise". Morison's vocabulary seems a little more lively
than one might expect from a sober naval historian.
I agree.
Morrison almost makes light of the fact the Japanese were dropping depth
charges on the Sculpin submarine.
Let us try to see this campaign through the eyes of the submarine skipper,
for whom each patrol was an operation in itself. Sculpin (Lieutenant
Commander Lucius H. Chappell) of the old Asiatic Fleet was one of the first
fleet subs to take stations off New Britain. Early in the morning of 27
September she possibly damaged a tanker but then found out that she was up
against the Japanese varsity. For hours, two well coordinated destroyers
tossed depth charges down on her, tearing a small hole in the pressure hull
which had the crew sweating and bailing but not force them to break off
their patrol. On 7 October Chappell saw a destroyer and a transport in his
periscope, and was tempted to retaliate on the destroyer, but "prudence
prevailed over personal animosity" and his torpedoes sank the 4700-ton
transport. After the usual depth-charge shivaree, Sculpin swam clear.
The only thing I couldn't type verbatim was that Morison spells words like
"coordinated" with the double-dot over the second "o" for some strange
reason, which is something I've never seen before in an English-language
book.
Have you?
Yes.

Very rarely, and long enough ago that I can't give a cite, but I have
seen it.
--
Cheryl
HVS
2017-11-29 11:55:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by harry newton
Post by Ross
Not likely that wedding celebrations were going on in this
context. So
Post by Cheryl
Post by harry newton
Post by Ross
it means "a lot of noise". Morison's vocabulary seems a little
more
Post by Cheryl
Post by harry newton
Post by Ross
lively
than one might expect from a sober naval historian.
I agree.
Morrison almost makes light of the fact the Japanese were
dropping depth
Post by Cheryl
Post by harry newton
charges on the Sculpin submarine.
Here is more context, all of which is verbatim, including
Let us try to see this campaign through the eyes of the submarine skipper,
for whom each patrol was an operation in itself. Sculpin
(Lieutenant
Post by Cheryl
Post by harry newton
Commander Lucius H. Chappell) of the old Asiatic Fleet was one of the first
fleet subs to take stations off New Britain. Early in the morning of 27
September she possibly damaged a tanker but then found out that she was up
against the Japanese varsity. For hours, two well coordinated destroyers
tossed depth charges down on her, tearing a small hole in the pressure hull
which had the crew sweating and bailing but not force them to break off
their patrol. On 7 October Chappell saw a destroyer and a
transport in his
Post by Cheryl
Post by harry newton
periscope, and was tempted to retaliate on the destroyer, but "prudence
prevailed over personal animosity" and his torpedoes sank the 4700-ton
transport. After the usual depth-charge shivaree, Sculpin swam clear.
The only thing I couldn't type verbatim was that Morison spells words like
"coordinated" with the double-dot over the second "o" for some strange
reason, which is something I've never seen before in an
English-language
Post by Cheryl
Post by harry newton
book.
Have you?
Yes.
Very rarely, and long enough ago that I can't give a cite, but I have
seen it.
+1. I tend to associate it with other now-discarded alternative
spellings - things like "connexion", say - which I've seen in books
of the 1920s and 30s.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-11-29 16:26:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry newton
Post by Ross
Not likely that wedding celebrations were going on in this context. So
it means "a lot of noise". Morison's vocabulary seems a little more lively
than one might expect from a sober naval historian.
I agree.
Morrison almost makes light of the fact the Japanese were dropping depth
charges on the Sculpin submarine.
Let us try to see this campaign through the eyes of the submarine skipper,
for whom each patrol was an operation in itself. Sculpin (Lieutenant
Commander Lucius H. Chappell) of the old Asiatic Fleet was one of the first
fleet subs to take stations off New Britain. Early in the morning of 27
September she possibly damaged a tanker but then found out that she was up
against the Japanese varsity. For hours, two well coordinated destroyers
tossed depth charges down on her, tearing a small hole in the pressure hull
which had the crew sweating and bailing but not force them to break off
their patrol. On 7 October Chappell saw a destroyer and a transport in his
periscope, and was tempted to retaliate on the destroyer, but "prudence
prevailed over personal animosity" and his torpedoes sank the 4700-ton
transport. After the usual depth-charge shivaree, Sculpin swam clear.
The only thing I couldn't type verbatim was that Morison spells words like
"coordinated" with the double-dot over the second "o" for some strange
reason, which is something I've never seen before in an English-language
book.
Have you?
Yes.
Very rarely, and long enough ago that I can't give a cite, but I have seen it.
I think The New Yorker spells it like that, along with coöperate, but
it's not a magazine I often see. Someone will know.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2017-11-29 16:51:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by harry newton
Post by Ross
Not likely that wedding celebrations were going on in this context. So
it means "a lot of noise". Morison's vocabulary seems a little more lively
than one might expect from a sober naval historian.
I agree.
Morrison almost makes light of the fact the Japanese were dropping depth
charges on the Sculpin submarine.
Let us try to see this campaign through the eyes of the submarine skipper,
for whom each patrol was an operation in itself. Sculpin (Lieutenant
Commander Lucius H. Chappell) of the old Asiatic Fleet was one of the first
fleet subs to take stations off New Britain. Early in the morning of 27
September she possibly damaged a tanker but then found out that she was up
against the Japanese varsity. For hours, two well coordinated destroyers
tossed depth charges down on her, tearing a small hole in the pressure hull
which had the crew sweating and bailing but not force them to break off
their patrol. On 7 October Chappell saw a destroyer and a transport in his
periscope, and was tempted to retaliate on the destroyer, but "prudence
prevailed over personal animosity" and his torpedoes sank the 4700-ton
transport. After the usual depth-charge shivaree, Sculpin swam clear.
The only thing I couldn't type verbatim was that Morison spells words like
"coordinated" with the double-dot over the second "o" for some strange
reason, which is something I've never seen before in an English-language
book.
Have you?
Yes.
Very rarely, and long enough ago that I can't give a cite, but I have seen it.
I think The New Yorker spells it like that, along with coöperate, but
it's not a magazine I often see. Someone will know.
Someone _did_ know. But he's afraid to know that.
J. J. Lodder
2017-12-01 10:18:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by harry newton
Post by Ross
Not likely that wedding celebrations were going on in this context. So
it means "a lot of noise". Morison's vocabulary seems a little more lively
than one might expect from a sober naval historian.
I agree.
Morrison almost makes light of the fact the Japanese were dropping depth
charges on the Sculpin submarine.
Let us try to see this campaign through the eyes of the submarine skipper,
for whom each patrol was an operation in itself. Sculpin (Lieutenant
Commander Lucius H. Chappell) of the old Asiatic Fleet was one of the first
fleet subs to take stations off New Britain. Early in the morning of 27
September she possibly damaged a tanker but then found out that she was up
against the Japanese varsity. For hours, two well coordinated destroyers
tossed depth charges down on her, tearing a small hole in the pressure hull
which had the crew sweating and bailing but not force them to break off
their patrol. On 7 October Chappell saw a destroyer and a transport in his
periscope, and was tempted to retaliate on the destroyer, but "prudence
prevailed over personal animosity" and his torpedoes sank the 4700-ton
transport. After the usual depth-charge shivaree, Sculpin swam clear.
The only thing I couldn't type verbatim was that Morison spells words like
"coordinated" with the double-dot over the second "o" for some strange
reason, which is something I've never seen before in an English-language
book.
Have you?
Yes.
Very rarely, and long enough ago that I can't give a cite, but I have seen it.
I think The New Yorker spells it like that, along with coöperate, but
it's not a magazine I often see. Someone will know.
It's a typical case of English evolution.
First you have a word like zoölogy,
then the Brits and Americans dorp the ¨ ,
then you get books educating the plebs about correct pronunciation
'There is no Zoo in Zoology', and finally you will decide
that zoo-logy is the correct pronunciation.

To top it off it will be become generally understood
that zoology is the science of what you find in a zoo.

There is no stopping progress,

Jan
occam
2017-12-04 14:08:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by harry newton
Post by Ross
Not likely that wedding celebrations were going on in this context. So
it means "a lot of noise". Morison's vocabulary seems a little more lively
than one might expect from a sober naval historian.
I agree.
Morrison almost makes light of the fact the Japanese were dropping depth
charges on the Sculpin submarine.
Let us try to see this campaign through the eyes of the submarine skipper,
for whom each patrol was an operation in itself. Sculpin (Lieutenant
Commander Lucius H. Chappell) of the old Asiatic Fleet was one of the first
fleet subs to take stations off New Britain. Early in the morning of 27
September she possibly damaged a tanker but then found out that she was up
against the Japanese varsity. For hours, two well coordinated destroyers
tossed depth charges down on her, tearing a small hole in the pressure hull
which had the crew sweating and bailing but not force them to break off
their patrol. On 7 October Chappell saw a destroyer and a transport in his
periscope, and was tempted to retaliate on the destroyer, but "prudence
prevailed over personal animosity" and his torpedoes sank the 4700-ton
transport. After the usual depth-charge shivaree, Sculpin swam clear.
The only thing I couldn't type verbatim was that Morison spells words like
"coordinated" with the double-dot over the second "o" for some strange
reason, which is something I've never seen before in an English-language
book.
Have you?
Yes.
Very rarely, and long enough ago that I can't give a cite, but I have seen it.
I think The New Yorker spells it like that, along with coöperate, but
it's not a magazine I often see. Someone will know.
Not only coöperate. Read the first para of the article below.

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-trumpishness-of-ivana

For the lazy amongst you:


"Ivana Trump, who was married to Donald Trump from 1977 to 1992, told an
interviewer, when asked if the President would seek reëlection, that she
thought the President was “missing a little bit of his old life,” the
days when “he would go to Mar-a-Lago, he would go to play golf on
Westchester, and things like that.

I have never seen 're-election' spelt like that before.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-11-29 12:17:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 11:23:00 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
Post by harry newton
Post by Ross
Not likely that wedding celebrations were going on in this context. So
it means "a lot of noise". Morison's vocabulary seems a little more lively
than one might expect from a sober naval historian.
I agree.
Morrison almost makes light of the fact the Japanese were dropping depth
charges on the Sculpin submarine.
Let us try to see this campaign through the eyes of the submarine skipper,
for whom each patrol was an operation in itself. Sculpin (Lieutenant
Commander Lucius H. Chappell) of the old Asiatic Fleet was one of the first
fleet subs to take stations off New Britain. Early in the morning of 27
September she possibly damaged a tanker but then found out that she was up
against the Japanese varsity. For hours, two well coordinated destroyers
tossed depth charges down on her, tearing a small hole in the pressure hull
which had the crew sweating and bailing but not force them to break off
their patrol. On 7 October Chappell saw a destroyer and a transport in his
periscope, and was tempted to retaliate on the destroyer, but "prudence
prevailed over personal animosity" and his torpedoes sank the 4700-ton
transport. After the usual depth-charge shivaree, Sculpin swam clear.
The only thing I couldn't type verbatim was that Morison spells words like
"coordinated" with the double-dot over the second "o" for some strange
reason, which is something I've never seen before in an English-language
book.
The reason is to indicate that the two "o"s are pronounced separately
rather than as "oo" in "soon" or "cooper".

The double-dot over the second "o" is sometimes used in "coöperate" for
the same reason.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/co%C3%B6peration

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/co%C3%B6rdinate

These are rare spellings, as is "noöne" for "no one".

English terms spelled with Ö:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_terms_spelled_with_%C3%96

One in the list seems to be excessive: "co-öperative". Either the hyphen
or the double-dot is sufficient.
Post by harry newton
Have you?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ken Blake
2017-11-29 15:57:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 12:17:23 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 11:23:00 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
Post by harry newton
The only thing I couldn't type verbatim was that Morison spells words like
"coordinated" with the double-dot over the second "o" for some strange
reason, which is something I've never seen before in an English-language
book.
The reason is to indicate that the two "o"s are pronounced separately
rather than as "oo" in "soon" or "cooper".
The double-dot over the second "o" is sometimes used in "coöperate" for
the same reason.
And just to add to that, that double-do
Peter T. Daniels
2017-11-29 12:58:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry newton
Post by Ross
Not likely that wedding celebrations were going on in this context. So
it means "a lot of noise". Morison's vocabulary seems a little more lively
than one might expect from a sober naval historian.
I agree.
Morrison
Morison
Post by harry newton
almost makes light of the fact the Japanese were dropping depth
charges on the Sculpin submarine.
Let us try to see this campaign through the eyes of the submarine skipper,
for whom each patrol was an operation in itself. Sculpin (Lieutenant
Commander Lucius H. Chappell) of the old Asiatic Fleet was one of the first
fleet subs to take stations off New Britain. Early in the morning of 27
September she possibly damaged a tanker but then found out that she was up
against the Japanese varsity. For hours, two well coordinated destroyers
tossed depth charges down on her, tearing a small hole in the pressure hull
which had the crew sweating and bailing but not force them to break off
their patrol. On 7 October Chappell saw a destroyer and a transport in his
periscope, and was tempted to retaliate on the destroyer, but "prudence
prevailed over personal animosity" and his torpedoes sank the 4700-ton
transport. After the usual depth-charge shivaree, Sculpin swam clear.
The only thing I couldn't type verbatim was that Morison spells words like
"coordinated" with the double-dot over the second "o" for some strange
reason, which is something I've never seen before in an English-language
book.
Have you?
Of course. It was "bog-standard" through at least the 1950s. The New Yorker
continued to use the dieresis into the 21st century, I believe.
J. J. Lodder
2017-11-29 13:27:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry newton
"After the usual depth-charge *shivaree*, Sculpin swam clear."
Copyright 1949, Samuel Eliot Morison's "History of United States Naval
Operations In WWII", Volume IV, "Coral Sea, Midway, and Submarine Actions",
page 226.
shivaree
modification of French charivari
a noisy mock serenade to a newly married couple]
First Known Use: 1843
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shivaree>
In 19th century rural America, a newly-married couple might be treated to a
mock serenade, performed with pots, pans, homemade instruments, and other
noisemakers. Such cacophonous serenades were traditionally considered
especially appropriate for second marriages or for unions deemed
incongruous because of an age discrepancy or some other cause. In the
eastern U.S. this custom, imported from rural England, was simply called a
"serenade" or known under various local names. In much of the central U.S.
and Canada, however, it was called a "shivaree," a loan from French
charivari, which denotes the same folk custom in France. In more recent
years, "shivaree" has also developed broader senses; it is sometimes used
to mean simply "a cacophony" or "a celebration."
The 'charivari' is much older than that (middle ages)
and not limited to France, not just mariages.
It was a form of social protest against behaviour
that was considered undesirable.
Dutch has 'ketelmuziek' for the accompanying sounds,
(lit. kettle music) so much noise produced by beating cooking pots,
kettles, pans, and so on.

It was not certainly not friendly,

Jan
bert
2017-11-29 14:38:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
The 'charivari' . . . was a form of social protest
against behaviour that was considered undesirable.
How does that relate to the French satirical humour
magazine Le Charivari, from which the originators
of Punch gave it its subtitle The London Charivari?
--
J. J. Lodder
2017-11-30 10:39:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bert
The 'charivari' . . . was a form of social protest
against behaviour that was considered undesirable.
How does that relate to the French satirical humour
magazine Le Charivari, from which the originators
of Punch gave it its subtitle The London Charivari?
Directly I think. The medieval charivari was a satirical event
at which the victims were ridiculed and satirised.
(in the form of a mock play in which role playing actors
impersonated the victims)
Hamlet's play im the play can also be thought of in the same tradition.
(exposing the motherfucker who murdered his father)

Another survival is the cacerolazo in the Spanish speaking world,
which is a demonstration against authority by cassorole beating,

Jan

From wikip:
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charivari_(volksgericht)#/media/File:Jule
s_Arsène_Garnier_-_Le_supplice_des_adultères.jpg>
gives a romantised picture of adulterers
being the subject of a charivari.
John Varela
2017-12-01 02:33:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bert
The 'charivari' . . . was a form of social protest
against behaviour that was considered undesirable.
How does that relate to the French satirical humour
magazine Le Charivari, from which the originators
of Punch gave it its subtitle The London Charivari?
Directly I think. The medieval charivari was a satirical event
at which the victims were ridiculed and satirised.
(in the form of a mock play in which role playing actors
impersonated the victims)
Hamlet's play im the play can also be thought of in the same tradition.
(exposing the motherfucker who murdered his father)
Another survival is the cacerolazo in the Spanish speaking world,
which is a demonstration against authority by cassorole beating,
Jan
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charivari_(volksgericht)#/media/File:Jule
s_ArsŐne_Garnier_-_Le_supplice_des_adultŐres.jpg>
gives a romantised picture of adulterers
being the subject of a charivari.
And then there is the caganer:

www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/blog_post.aspx?blog=chalkie&post=14202
--
John Varela
J. J. Lodder
2017-12-01 10:18:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Varela
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bert
The 'charivari' . . . was a form of social protest
against behaviour that was considered undesirable.
How does that relate to the French satirical humour
magazine Le Charivari, from which the originators
of Punch gave it its subtitle The London Charivari?
Directly I think. The medieval charivari was a satirical event
at which the victims were ridiculed and satirised.
(in the form of a mock play in which role playing actors
impersonated the victims)
Hamlet's play im the play can also be thought of in the same tradition.
(exposing the motherfucker who murdered his father)
Another survival is the cacerolazo in the Spanish speaking world,
which is a demonstration against authority by cassorole beating,
Jan
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charivari_(volksgericht)#/media/File:Jule
s_Ars?ne_Garnier_-_Le_supplice_des_adult?res.jpg>
gives a romantised picture of adulterers
being the subject of a charivari.
www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/blog_post.aspx?blog=chalkie&post=14202
Second though: there was a well known (to most of you)
Dutch author who published under the pen name Charivarius.
(among other things satirising clumsy abuses of language)

He is well known in English under his own name,
Gerard Nolst Trenité, as author of the poem 'The Chaos'.
And no, his name doesn't rhyme with 'kite'.

On pronunciation: 'Charivarius' should be pronounced
with the 'ch' as in French 'Chapeau',
so the Americans have that about right
with their 'shivaree',

Jan

PS Is the custom of tying a string of cans
to the car of the 'Just Married'
a late survival of the original shivaree?
Jerry Friedman
2017-12-03 18:10:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by John Varela
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bert
The 'charivari' . . . was a form of social protest
against behaviour that was considered undesirable.
How does that relate to the French satirical humour
magazine Le Charivari, from which the originators
of Punch gave it its subtitle The London Charivari?
Directly I think. The medieval charivari was a satirical event
at which the victims were ridiculed and satirised.
(in the form of a mock play in which role playing actors
impersonated the victims)
Hamlet's play im the play can also be thought of in the same tradition.
(exposing the motherfucker who murdered his father)
Another survival is the cacerolazo in the Spanish speaking world,
which is a demonstration against authority by cassorole beating,
Jan
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charivari_(volksgericht)#/media/File:Jule
s_Ars?ne_Garnier_-_Le_supplice_des_adult?res.jpg>
gives a romantised picture of adulterers
being the subject of a charivari.
www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/blog_post.aspx?blog=chalkie&post=14202
Second though: there was a well known (to most of you)
Dutch author who published under the pen name Charivarius.
(among other things satirising clumsy abuses of language)
He is well known in English under his own name,
Gerard Nolst Trenité, as author of the poem 'The Chaos'.
Ah, that guy.
Post by J. J. Lodder
And no, his name doesn't rhyme with 'kite'.
On pronunciation: 'Charivarius' should be pronounced
with the 'ch' as in French 'Chapeau',
so the Americans have that about right
with their 'shivaree',
Which we got from French "charivari", not from Trenité's pen name.
Post by J. J. Lodder
PS Is the custom of tying a string of cans
to the car of the 'Just Married'
And honking horns. I haven't seen or heard the can thing for a long time.
Post by J. J. Lodder
a late survival of the original shivaree?
Or just that people like to make noise when celebrating?

I'll mention that the only fictional shivaree I can think of is the one
in /Oklahoma!/ Most of them don't end that way, though.
--
Jerry Friedman
Sam Plusnet
2017-12-03 19:58:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by John Varela
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bert
The 'charivari' . . . was a form of social protest
against behaviour that was considered undesirable.
How does that relate to the French satirical humour
magazine Le Charivari, from which the originators
of Punch gave it its subtitle The London Charivari?
Directly I think. The medieval charivari was a satirical event
at which the victims were ridiculed and satirised.
(in the form of a mock play in which role playing actors
impersonated the victims)
Hamlet's play im the play can also be thought of in the same tradition.
(exposing the motherfucker who murdered his father)
Another survival is the cacerolazo in the Spanish speaking world,
which is a demonstration against authority by cassorole beating,
Jan
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charivari_(volksgericht)#/media/File:Jule
s_Ars?ne_Garnier_-_Le_supplice_des_adult?res.jpg>
gives a romantised picture of adulterers
being the subject of a charivari.
www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/blog_post.aspx?blog=chalkie&post=14202
Second though: there was a well known (to most of you)
Dutch author who published under the pen name Charivarius.
(among other things satirising clumsy abuses of language)
He is well known in English under his own name,
Gerard Nolst Trenité, as author of the poem 'The Chaos'.
Ah, that guy.
Post by J. J. Lodder
And no, his name doesn't rhyme with 'kite'.
On pronunciation: 'Charivarius' should be pronounced
with the 'ch' as in French 'Chapeau',
so the Americans have that about right
with their 'shivaree',
Which we got from French "charivari", not from Trenité's pen name.
Post by J. J. Lodder
PS Is the custom of tying a string of cans
to the car of the 'Just Married'
And honking horns.  I haven't seen or heard the can thing for a long time.
I wonder if that is because cars no longer have a separate bumper & that
makes it much harder to attach a string of tin cans?
--
Sam Plusnet
RH Draney
2017-12-04 01:07:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll mention that the only fictional shivaree I can think of is the one
in /Oklahoma!/  Most of them don't end that way, though.
I was once privy to a real one along those lines...when my girlfriend's
brother got married, one of his cousins found out what hotel they were
going to for the wedding night, and managed to get in to short-sheet the
bed....r
Mack A. Damia
2017-12-04 01:21:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll mention that the only fictional shivaree I can think of is the one
in /Oklahoma!/  Most of them don't end that way, though.
I was once privy to a real one along those lines...when my girlfriend's
brother got married, one of his cousins found out what hotel they were
going to for the wedding night, and managed to get in to short-sheet the
bed....r
I seem to recall that all of my wife's panties were padlocked together
on one of those combination-locks with a long arm.

I think they mercifully included a paper with about twenty-five
combinations written on it.

We didn't find out until we got into our honeymoon suite in Miami
Beach (9/68). Reminds me, though. I carried her over the threshold
of our hotel room about 10 pm after a flight from Philadelphia - and
there were two people sleeping in the bed. We beat a hasty retreat.
RH Draney
2017-12-04 09:23:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mack A. Damia
We didn't find out until we got into our honeymoon suite in Miami
Beach (9/68). Reminds me, though. I carried her over the threshold
of our hotel room about 10 pm after a flight from Philadelphia - and
there were two people sleeping in the bed. We beat a hasty retreat.
"...and not only that, all our porridge had been eaten!"...r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-12-04 10:13:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RH Draney
Post by Mack A. Damia
We didn't find out until we got into our honeymoon suite in Miami
Beach (9/68). Reminds me, though. I carried her over the threshold
of our hotel room about 10 pm after a flight from Philadelphia - and
there were two people sleeping in the bed. We beat a hasty retreat.
"...and not only that, all our porridge had been eaten!"...r
When my oldest daughter was married in Livermore the hotel put my wife,
youngest daughter and me in the room that was also assigned to the
bride and groom. We were in bed and getting ready to sleep when they
arrived at about midnight.
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2017-12-04 14:28:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Mack A. Damia
We didn't find out until we got into our honeymoon suite in Miami
Beach (9/68). Reminds me, though. I carried her over the threshold
of our hotel room about 10 pm after a flight from Philadelphia - and
there were two people sleeping in the bed. We beat a hasty retreat.
"...and not only that, all our porridge had been eaten!"...r
When my oldest daughter was married in Livermore the hotel put my wife,
youngest daughter and me in the room that was also assigned to the bride
and groom. We were in bed and getting ready to sleep when they arrived
at about midnight.
After my second marriage we were given the "honeymoon suite" at one of
the Brussels airport motels. (We were due to fly to Australia the day
after. As a result of which I spewed over four continents in two days,
but that's another story.) It had two double beds. We concluded that the
other bed was for the witnesses.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2017-12-03 14:36:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Varela
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bert
The 'charivari' . . . was a form of social protest
against behaviour that was considered undesirable.
How does that relate to the French satirical humour
magazine Le Charivari, from which the originators
of Punch gave it its subtitle The London Charivari?
Directly I think. The medieval charivari was a satirical event
at which the victims were ridiculed and satirised.
(in the form of a mock play in which role playing actors
impersonated the victims)
Hamlet's play im the play can also be thought of in the same tradition.
(exposing the motherfucker who murdered his father)
Another survival is the cacerolazo in the Spanish speaking world,
which is a demonstration against authority by cassorole beating,
Jan
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charivari_(volksgericht)#/media/File:Jule
s_Ars?ne_Garnier_-_Le_supplice_des_adult?res.jpg>
gives a romantised picture of adulterers
being the subject of a charivari.
www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/blog_post.aspx?blog=chalkie&post=14202
You should be able to guess (from another thread here)
who this years favorite caganer is,

Jan
Loading...