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Peter Young
2017-07-20 19:58:50 UTC
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Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.

The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.

I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.

My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.

What do all you wise people think?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Ir)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter T. Daniels
2017-07-20 20:11:29 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
You're probably not a paramilitary organization that plays at soldering, so it
was quite appropriate to be lenient.

Unless your catered dinner is a very elaborate affair involving the purchase of
very rare and expensive ingredients, so that an additional diner simply can't
be accommodated.

"I need to hear from you by today" doesn't mean I needed to hear from you
yesterday or earlier. (Does it?)

More interesting is "on" for the phone number instead of "at." I wonder what
the original metaphor or image was.
Peter Young
2017-07-20 20:24:14 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
You're probably not a paramilitary organization that plays at
soldering, so it was quite appropriate to be lenient.
Except in so far as safety in leading a certain number of walkers is
concerned. My original cut-off was 25, and we now have 28, as I'm
soft-hearted. Also, this walk is easy and level, and my f-w-i-a-l will
be back-marker, and she'll keep them in order.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Unless your catered dinner is a very elaborate affair involving the
purchase of very rare and expensive ingredients, so that an additional
diner simply can't be accommodated.
Indeed, but some pubs have limited dining accommodation, and that can
limit the number of walkers. This pub just says that they can cope
with "lots" of walkers.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"I need to hear from you by today" doesn't mean I needed to hear from you
yesterday or earlier. (Does it?)
That's what I asked!
Post by Peter T. Daniels
More interesting is "on" for the phone number instead of "at." I wonder what
the original metaphor or image was.
No idea of the metaphor, but the "on" is standard BrE.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Ir)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Richard Heathfield
2017-07-20 20:32:51 UTC
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<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
More interesting is "on" for the phone number instead of "at." I wonder what
the original metaphor or image was.
No idea of the metaphor, but the "on" is standard BrE.
I agree, but I have a complaint.

I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Young
2017-07-20 20:59:03 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
More interesting is "on" for the phone number instead of "at." I wonder what
the original metaphor or image was.
No idea of the metaphor, but the "on" is standard BrE.
I agree, but I have a complaint.
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
<grin>

In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.

ObAUE: there was a story of a <insert your preferred racial insult
here> secretary, who said "I know your internet password, it's
*******".

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Ir)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Richard Heathfield
2017-07-20 21:12:30 UTC
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<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
<grin>
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Post by Peter Young
ObAUE: there was a story of a <insert your preferred racial insult
here> secretary, who said "I know your internet password, it's
*******".
Proof, if proof were needed, that seven-character passwords are
insecure. If <user> had chosen "********" instead, the secretary would
never have found it out.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Young
2017-07-21 06:48:01 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
<grin>
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Not too many marshes at Frampton-on-Severn, but be prepared for mud.
And you do realise, don't you, that by the rules of the group that
I've just made up, uninvited walkers will pay for the lunches of all
the walkers?
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
ObAUE: there was a story of a <insert your preferred racial insult
here> secretary, who said "I know your internet password, it's
*******".
Proof, if proof were needed, that seven-character passwords are
insecure. If <user> had chosen "********" instead, the secretary would
never have found it out.
Indeed!

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Richard Heathfield
2017-07-21 07:43:32 UTC
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<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Not too many marshes at Frampton-on-Severn,
Ah, a clue! That'll be handy for the hunting-you-down part.

Q: Do they still have a "Folk at Frampton" club, just down the lane from
the pub on the green? They used to meet on Tuesday nights, although I'm
going back <cough> twenty years now.
Post by Peter Young
but be prepared for mud.
This /is/ England. *Of course* I'm prepared for mud.
Post by Peter Young
And you do realise, don't you, that by the rules of the group that
I've just made up, uninvited walkers will pay for the lunches of all
the walkers?
What /is/ it? It's a /cheque/. What do you mean, you don't take cheques
any more? Really? I see. Oh, dear; that puts me in a bit of a pickle.
Look, I'm sorry, everybody. I was perfectly willing to pay, but it seems
the waitress won't take cheques...
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Young
2017-07-21 08:15:31 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Not too many marshes at Frampton-on-Severn,
Ah, a clue! That'll be handy for the hunting-you-down part.
Q: Do they still have a "Folk at Frampton" club, just down the lane from
the pub on the green? They used to meet on Tuesday nights, although I'm
going back <cough> twenty years now.
Not that I know of.
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
but be prepared for mud.
This /is/ England. *Of course* I'm prepared for mud.
Hereabouts it's been remarkably mud-free for quite a while. I haven't
had to clean my boots after a walk for several weeks. I think that
might change tomorrow.
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
And you do realise, don't you, that by the rules of the group that
I've just made up, uninvited walkers will pay for the lunches of all
the walkers?
What /is/ it? It's a /cheque/. What do you mean, you don't take cheques
any more? Really? I see. Oh, dear; that puts me in a bit of a pickle.
Look, I'm sorry, everybody. I was perfectly willing to pay, but it seems
the waitress won't take cheques...
What a pity! We'll raise our glasses to you, anyway.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Charles Bishop
2017-07-21 19:48:25 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
<grin>
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Not too many marshes at Frampton-on-Severn, but be prepared for mud.
And you do realise, don't you, that by the rules of the group that
I've just made up, uninvited walkers will pay for the lunches of all
the walkers?
Will there be no strangers along this walk of yours, even by
happenstance? Do you put barriers up along the way after you've begun?


[snip]
--
charles
Peter Young
2017-07-21 20:53:26 UTC
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Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
<grin>
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Not too many marshes at Frampton-on-Severn, but be prepared for mud.
And you do realise, don't you, that by the rules of the group that
I've just made up, uninvited walkers will pay for the lunches of all
the walkers?
Will there be no strangers along this walk of yours, even by
happenstance? Do you put barriers up along the way after you've begun?
Plenty of strangers will be met, but I think that our battalion of
ancients might well put people off joining us! I don't think we've
ever discovered that we've come back with more people than we've set
off with. The pub might object if they have to feed more that the
number expected.

ObAUE: On recent walk, we came across a walking group exclusively of
women. One of them said that they called themselves WASPS; "Walk and
stop at pubs". That's rather our philosophy.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Charles Bishop
2017-07-22 00:59:31 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
<grin>
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Not too many marshes at Frampton-on-Severn, but be prepared for mud.
And you do realise, don't you, that by the rules of the group that
I've just made up, uninvited walkers will pay for the lunches of all
the walkers?
Will there be no strangers along this walk of yours, even by
happenstance? Do you put barriers up along the way after you've begun?
Plenty of strangers will be met, but I think that our battalion of
ancients might well put people off joining us! I don't think we've
ever discovered that we've come back with more people than we've set
off with. The pub might object if they have to feed more that the
number expected.
ObAUE: On recent walk, we came across a walking group exclusively of
women. One of them said that they called themselves WASPS; "Walk and
stop at pubs". That's rather our philosophy.
I'd like to be an honory member.

charles, cheque is in the mail
bill van
2017-07-22 08:23:53 UTC
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Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Peter Young
Post by Charles Bishop
Will there be no strangers along this walk of yours, even by
happenstance? Do you put barriers up along the way after you've begun?
Plenty of strangers will be met, but I think that our battalion of
ancients might well put people off joining us! I don't think we've
ever discovered that we've come back with more people than we've set
off with. The pub might object if they have to feed more that the
number expected.
ObAUE: On recent walk, we came across a walking group exclusively of
women. One of them said that they called themselves WASPS; "Walk and
stop at pubs". That's rather our philosophy.
I'd like to be an honory member.
I'm going to read that as "ornery".
Post by Charles Bishop
charles, cheque is in the mail
Or if you like, Czech, male.
--
bill
charles
2017-07-22 08:03:46 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
<grin>
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Not too many marshes at Frampton-on-Severn, but be prepared for mud.
And you do realise, don't you, that by the rules of the group that
I've just made up, uninvited walkers will pay for the lunches of all
the walkers?
Will there be no strangers along this walk of yours, even by
happenstance? Do you put barriers up along the way after you've begun?
Plenty of strangers will be met, but I think that our battalion of
ancients might well put people off joining us! I don't think we've
ever discovered that we've come back with more people than we've set
off with. The pub might object if they have to feed more that the
number expected.
ObAUE: On recent walk, we came across a walking group exclusively of
women. One of them said that they called themselves WASPS; "Walk and
stop at pubs". That's rather our philosophy.
sounds similar to Hash House Harriers whose object is to run to work up a
thirst.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
Peter Moylan
2017-07-22 14:07:18 UTC
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Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
<grin>
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Not too many marshes at Frampton-on-Severn, but be prepared for mud.
And you do realise, don't you, that by the rules of the group that
I've just made up, uninvited walkers will pay for the lunches of all
the walkers?
Will there be no strangers along this walk of yours, even by
happenstance? Do you put barriers up along the way after you've begun?
Clearly, the rules are different from what they were WIWAL. Our scout
hikes were designed to be completed in a single day, so there was no
chance at all of meeting another town, or even a stranger coming from
some other town. We went out into the wilderness, and then came back. At
least, we came back in all of the walks in which I participated.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
s***@gmail.com
2017-07-21 22:56:30 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Not too many marshes at Frampton-on-Severn, but be prepared for mud.
Can you swim from tree to tree, when you're done at the Sailing Club?

You'll be glad to know I could find the Bell Inn, The Three Horseshoes,
and Ley Bistro.

Oh, and The Old Vicarage Residential Care Home.

The findings were easy on Google Maps, less obvious in Google Earth.

/dps
GordonD
2017-07-21 08:44:15 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I
phoned the number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number
you have dialled has not been recognised. Please check and try
again." Are you sure you typed the correct number of *s?
<grin>
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I
don't think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't
come anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape
from a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Post by Peter Young
ObAUE: there was a story of a <insert your preferred racial insult
here> secretary, who said "I know your internet password, it's
*******".
Proof, if proof were needed, that seven-character passwords are
insecure. If <user> had chosen "********" instead, the secretary
would never have found it out.
A couple of years ago the winning joke at the Edinburgh Fringe was "I
was told my password had to be eight characters. So I chose Snow White
and the Seven Dwarfs."

Answering the original question, my understanding of "by Thursday 20th"
would be "by *the end of* Thursday 20th" so your additional person was
within the guidelines. If you had needed final numbers by first thing on
Thursday morning then I'd have expected to see "before Thursday 20th".
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Charles Bishop
2017-07-21 19:46:43 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Richard Heathfield
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
<grin>
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Are you more mellow now?
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
ObAUE: there was a story of a <insert your preferred racial insult
here> secretary, who said "I know your internet password, it's
*******".
Proof, if proof were needed, that seven-character passwords are
insecure. If <user> had chosen "********" instead, the secretary would
never have found it out.
--
charles
s***@gmail.com
2017-07-21 20:08:54 UTC
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Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
In any case, the number of walkers is set in stone now. Also, I don't
think you are a member of the Cheltenham U3A, so you can't come
anyway.
I don't care. I'll hunt your party down and follow it at a discreet
distance. Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Are you more mellow now?
The mallows I've seen grow very tall, but that was away from the water's edge.


/dps
Richard Heathfield
2017-07-21 21:26:16 UTC
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<snip>
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Richard Heathfield
Please avoid marshy areas, though - I had a narrow escape from
a marsh once, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Are you more mellow now?
Ha! Maybe.

It was the afternoon of Sunday the 24th of October 2014. Two days later,
in response to a request from someone-or-other elsegroup to post "the
dumbest thing you did", I wrote an account of my experience which you
might find educational if you're planning to go out walking this weekend:

++++++++++++++++
I think this Sunday afternoon has to come pretty high up my own personal
list.

I made several mistakes:

1) I followed a public footpath, clearly marked as such on an Ordnance
Survey map;
2) I knew that land-owners are required by law to keep public footpaths
on their land well-maintained;
3) I walked too quickly.

I was here: 53.276692,-2.631448

I was walking roughly WSW.

The ground was squishy. I ignored this warning, stepping confidently
from tussock to tussock. (In theory, this means that I left the "path"
from time to time, but the path wasn't actually marked, and in practice
it wouldn't have made any difference to what followed.)

Suddenly (and this is perhaps the most appropriate moment in my whole
life to which to apply that word), I was slightly more than knee-deep in
filthy, stinking, watery mud. I am either blessed or cursed with an
over-active imagination, and of course there ran through my mind every
quicksand scene from all those Tarzan movies I saw as a child. I
realised I might be about to die horribly.

Fortunately, I was carrying a stout walking stick. Up until now, I have
always felt a little ambivalent about using a walking stick when walking
in the tame English countryside, but I think it may have saved my life
on Sunday.

I quickly discovered that I could not move my legs upward. The stick had
sunk some way into the mud, but I found that I could use it to keep my
balance as I tried to manoeuvre. This meant that I could force my right
leg leftward, until it was at a significant angle to the vertical.
Whether because this changed the interplay of the forces acting on my
leg or simply because I had created a bit of an air gap in all the
gunge, I was now able to pull my leg up a significant distance. I
repeated that with the left leg, with the stick taking some of the
strain and stopping the right leg from sinking to quite the same depth
as before. Doing this over and over, I was eventually able to move one
step forward.

After what seemed like a month but was probably a few minutes, I reached
the relative safety of the fence that runs roughly NNW-SSE. Along the
line of the fence, there was a ridge of stable ground a few inches wide.
Unfortunately, there was a wide gap in the fence where the public
"footpath" crossed it, and the ground looked impassable there, so I had
no choice but to head maybe 20 yards north-ish along the line of the
fence, until I reached what to my untutored eye appeared to be some kind
of sweetcorn-like plantation. The ground was still fairly ghastly even
here, but I was able (sorry, farmer, but you should have kept that
footpath maintained properly) to tread down the plants to give me some
kind of footing until I got back to Cliff Brook.

I think this may be the closest I have ever come to killing myself! Of
course, it may be that I would not have sunk any further, and if I'd
waited a few weeks for some passing stranger to notice my fate, I may
well have been rescued. I don't know enough about the physics of
quagmires to tell which it would have been.

I now know exactly what a quagmire is (I did the research on my eventual
return to civilisation), and I also found that the first syllable can be
pronounced to rhyme either with "bog" or with "bag", which I hadn't
hitherto realised. So I learned something from the experience, which is
nice.
+++++++++++++++

(On re-reading the above account I note that I forgot to mention that
the fence was of barbed wire, which DID NOT HELP!)
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Janet
2017-07-21 22:58:48 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
1) I followed a public footpath, clearly marked as such on an Ordnance
Survey map;
2) I knew that land-owners are required by law to keep public footpaths
on their land well-maintained;
You may have misunderstood the use of " maintained" in this context.

In relation to footpaths it only means that a private landowner
landowner allows the public footpath to continue to exist.
The only "maintenance" required, is to keep it visible and unobstructed.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/public-rights-of-way-landowner-
responsibilities

Janet
Richard Heathfield
2017-07-21 23:22:48 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Richard Heathfield
1) I followed a public footpath, clearly marked as such on an Ordnance
Survey map;
2) I knew that land-owners are required by law to keep public footpaths
on their land well-maintained;
You may have misunderstood the use of " maintained" in this context.
Perhaps, but I don't think so.
Post by Janet
In relation to footpaths it only means that a private landowner
landowner allows the public footpath to continue to exist.
The only "maintenance" required, is to keep it visible and unobstructed.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/public-rights-of-way-landowner-
responsibilities
From that page:

"As the owner or occupier of land with a public right of way across it,
you must keep the route visible and not obstruct or endanger users."

("endanger" being the operative word here)

...and...

"If necessary, use signs to warn users of any dangers that are not
obvious, such as slurry lagoons."

All right, it wasn't a slurry lagoon, but it /was/ a danger and it was
/not/ obvious.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
RH Draney
2017-07-21 05:17:53 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
ObAUE: there was a story of a <insert your preferred racial insult
here> secretary, who said "I know your internet password, it's
*******".
"Blonde" is racial?...r
Peter Young
2017-07-21 06:42:40 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Young
ObAUE: there was a story of a <insert your preferred racial insult
here> secretary, who said "I know your internet password, it's
*******".
"Blonde" is racial?...r
Hey, I'm blond, so your comment is in doubtful taste!

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Quinn C
2017-07-21 16:53:30 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Young
ObAUE: there was a story of a <insert your preferred racial insult
here> secretary, who said "I know your internet password, it's
*******".
"Blonde" is racial?...r
No, they are irraceional.

Then again, in a TV episode I just saw, the Jewish father was
lecturing his son: I get it, she's a natural blonde,
she's exotic to you. But exotic is for pets and vacations, not for
making a life.
--
... man muss oft schon Wissenschaft infrage stellen bei den Wirt-
schaftsmenschen [...] das Denken wird haeufig blockiert von einem
ideologischen Ueberbau [...] Es ist halt in vielen Teilen eher
eine Religion als eine Wissenschaft. -- Heiner Flassbeck
Peter Moylan
2017-07-22 14:10:49 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Young
ObAUE: there was a story of a <insert your preferred racial insult
here> secretary, who said "I know your internet password, it's
*******".
"Blonde" is racial?...r
What's a blonde's favourite wine?

"Daddy, I want to go to Bali".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Charles Bishop
2017-07-21 19:45:02 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
More interesting is "on" for the phone number instead of "at." I wonder what
the original metaphor or image was.
No idea of the metaphor, but the "on" is standard BrE.
I agree, but I have a complaint.
I had rather set my heart on joining you for this walk, so I phoned the
number you gave, *****, and was told that "the number you have dialled
has not been recognised. Please check and try again." Are you sure you
typed the correct number of *s?
I got the same result and even remembered to dial the country code
first. Perhaps when enough people sign up, the number ceases to exist?
--
charle
Peter T. Daniels
2017-07-20 21:15:05 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
You're probably not a paramilitary organization that plays at
soldering, so it was quite appropriate to be lenient.
Except in so far as safety in leading a certain number of walkers is
concerned. My original cut-off was 25, and we now have 28, as I'm
soft-hearted. Also, this walk is easy and level, and my f-w-i-a-l will
be back-marker, and she'll keep them in order.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Unless your catered dinner is a very elaborate affair involving the
purchase of very rare and expensive ingredients, so that an additional
diner simply can't be accommodated.
Indeed, but some pubs have limited dining accommodation, and that can
limit the number of walkers. This pub just says that they can cope
with "lots" of walkers.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"I need to hear from you by today" doesn't mean I needed to hear from you
yesterday or earlier. (Does it?)
That's what I asked!
I gave my answer -- and wondered how you can doubt it! "By today" has to be
said _today_, so it can't mean 'yesterday'! Or could you never say "I need to
hear from you by today"?
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
More interesting is "on" for the phone number instead of "at." I wonder what
the original metaphor or image was.
No idea of the metaphor, but the "on" is standard BrE.
Jerry Friedman
2017-07-20 21:48:59 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
You're probably not a paramilitary organization that plays at
soldering, so it was quite appropriate to be lenient.
Except in so far as safety in leading a certain number of walkers is
concerned. My original cut-off was 25, and we now have 28, as I'm
soft-hearted. Also, this walk is easy and level, and my f-w-i-a-l will
be back-marker, and she'll keep them in order.
...
I'm afraid I've previously mentioned the "10% rule" followed around
here: If 90% or more of the hikers return, that's good enough.

I agree with others: "by the 20th" means the 20th is all right. I had
some confusion with somebody who uses "by 2:00" to mean "about 2:00".
After all, "It's up by Abiquiu" means "It's near Abiquiu."
--
Jerry Friedman
John Varela
2017-07-21 17:58:11 UTC
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On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:48:59 UTC, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
After all, "It's up by Abiquiu" means "It's near Abiquiu."
The Reservoir or the town? You talkin' about Bode's General Store?
--
John Varela
David Kleinecke
2017-07-21 19:34:59 UTC
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Post by John Varela
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:48:59 UTC, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
After all, "It's up by Abiquiu" means "It's near Abiquiu."
The Reservoir or the town? You talkin' about Bode's General Store?
Locally that would be Mad River.

I have yet to learn what irritates the stream.
Jerry Friedman
2017-07-22 03:13:35 UTC
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Post by John Varela
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:48:59 UTC, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
After all, "It's up by Abiquiu" means "It's near Abiquiu."
The Reservoir or the town? You talkin' about Bode's General Store?
I was quoting somebody explaining where his home town, Tierra Azul, is.
I've never been to Tierra Azul. There may be blue earth there.

I might say Bode's is /in/ Abiquiu, the town, not the reservoir.

We don't call it a reservoir around here. It's Abiquiu Lake. Once in a
motel in, I think, Ft. Sumner, N.M., I mentioned their local "reservoir"
to the clerk, and she said, "You mean the lake?"
--
Jerry Friedman
Charles Bishop
2017-07-21 19:43:05 UTC
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In article <***@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
Peter Young <***@ormail.co.uk> wrote:

[snip previous-PY will lead a group on a walk, with able assistance from
hfwial]
Post by Peter Young
Except in so far as safety in leading a certain number of walkers is
concerned. My original cut-off was 25, and we now have 28, as I'm
soft-hearted. Also, this walk is easy and level, and my f-w-i-a-l will
be back-marker, and she'll keep them in order.
For "back-marker" on a hike I would use "sweep" as for one who sweeps up
the stragglers and returns them to the group. Is "back-marker" known in
the US? Is there a rough origin?

[snip]
--
charles
Peter Young
2017-07-21 20:43:44 UTC
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Post by Charles Bishop
[snip previous-PY will lead a group on a walk, with able assistance from
hfwial]
Post by Peter Young
Except in so far as safety in leading a certain number of walkers is
concerned. My original cut-off was 25, and we now have 28, as I'm
soft-hearted. Also, this walk is easy and level, and my f-w-i-a-l will
be back-marker, and she'll keep them in order.
For "back-marker" on a hike I would use "sweep" as for one who sweeps up
the stragglers and returns them to the group. Is "back-marker" known in
the US? Is there a rough origin?
No eye dear about the origin. "Back-marker" is the usual term on our
walks, but I quite like the term "whipper-in", even though that's
associated with e blood-sport about which I have reservations.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
charles
2017-07-22 08:02:33 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Charles Bishop
[snip previous-PY will lead a group on a walk, with able assistance from
hfwial]
Post by Peter Young
Except in so far as safety in leading a certain number of walkers is
concerned. My original cut-off was 25, and we now have 28, as I'm
soft-hearted. Also, this walk is easy and level, and my f-w-i-a-l will
be back-marker, and she'll keep them in order.
For "back-marker" on a hike I would use "sweep" as for one who sweeps up
the stragglers and returns them to the group. Is "back-marker" known in
the US? Is there a rough origin?
No eye dear about the origin. "Back-marker" is the usual term on our
walks, but I quite like the term "whipper-in", even though that's
associated with e blood-sport about which I have reservations.
Sheep-dog could be more appropriate.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
Tony Cooper
2017-07-20 21:32:45 UTC
Reply
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On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:11:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
You're probably not a paramilitary organization that plays at soldering, so it
was quite appropriate to be lenient.
What is military organization that is "playing at soldering"? One
that is in a constant flux? A rosin corps?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2017-07-21 03:30:46 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:11:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
You're probably not a paramilitary organization that plays at soldering, so it
was quite appropriate to be lenient.
What is military organization that is "playing at soldering"? One
that is in a constant flux? A rosin corps?
PARAmilitary. Tony-who-Moylan-thinks-is-God, can't you even read?

Even you should have been able to recognize "soldiering."
Tony Cooper
2017-07-21 04:47:15 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:30:46 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:11:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
You're probably not a paramilitary organization that plays at soldering, so it
was quite appropriate to be lenient.
What is military organization that is "playing at soldering"? One
that is in a constant flux? A rosin corps?
PARAmilitary. Tony-who-Moylan-thinks-is-God, can't you even read?
Even you should have been able to recognize "soldiering."
You have never figured out how to play in this group, Petey. You'll
never fit in.

When someone makes a typo or thinko, the thing to do is to either
ignore it because we all make such errors and we understand what was
intended, or respond with a pun or some form of word play to
capitalize on the error.

When one is caught out making a typo or thinko, and someone riffs on
it, you either try to out-riff the riff and strike while the iron is
hot or suffer through it like a good little solder.

Capitalizing on the error, by the way, does not mean responding in
upper case. That's just screechy.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
GordonD
2017-07-21 10:50:42 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:30:46 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:11:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
You're probably not a paramilitary organization that plays at soldering, so it
was quite appropriate to be lenient.
What is military organization that is "playing at soldering"? One
that is in a constant flux? A rosin corps?
PARAmilitary. Tony-who-Moylan-thinks-is-God, can't you even read?
Even you should have been able to recognize "soldiering."
You have never figured out how to play in this group, Petey. You'll
never fit in.
When someone makes a typo or thinko, the thing to do is to either
ignore it because we all make such errors and we understand what was
intended, or respond with a pun or some form of word play to
capitalize on the error.
When one is caught out making a typo or thinko, and someone riffs on
it, you either try to out-riff the riff and strike while the iron is
hot or suffer through it like a good little solder.
Capitalizing on the error, by the way, does not mean responding in
upper case. That's just screechy.
Maybe you should have said "Bazinga!" at the end...
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Richard Heathfield
2017-07-21 13:00:47 UTC
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Post by GordonD
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:30:46 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:11:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my
interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
You're probably not a paramilitary organization that plays at soldering, so it
was quite appropriate to be lenient.
What is military organization that is "playing at soldering"? One
that is in a constant flux? A rosin corps?
PARAmilitary. Tony-who-Moylan-thinks-is-God, can't you even read?
Even you should have been able to recognize "soldiering."
You have never figured out how to play in this group, Petey. You'll
never fit in.
When someone makes a typo or thinko, the thing to do is to either
ignore it because we all make such errors and we understand what was
intended, or respond with a pun or some form of word play to
capitalize on the error.
When one is caught out making a typo or thinko, and someone riffs on
it, you either try to out-riff the riff and strike while the iron is
hot or suffer through it like a good little solder.
Capitalizing on the error, by the way, does not mean responding in
upper case. That's just screechy.
Maybe you should have said "Bazinga!" at the end...
Is that the tube-shaped thing that one solder puts on his solder, and
the other solder pats him on the other solder when it's time to fire?
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter T. Daniels
2017-07-21 12:19:43 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:30:46 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:11:29 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
You're probably not a paramilitary organization that plays at soldering, so it
was quite appropriate to be lenient.
What is military organization that is "playing at soldering"? One
that is in a constant flux? A rosin corps?
PARAmilitary. Tony-who-Moylan-thinks-is-God, can't you even read?
Even you should have been able to recognize "soldiering."
You have never figured out how to play in this group, Petey. You'll
never fit in.
When someone makes a typo or thinko, the thing to do is to either
ignore it because we all make such errors and we understand what was
intended, or respond with a pun or some form of word play to
capitalize on the error.
When one is caught out making a typo or thinko, and someone riffs on
it, you either try to out-riff the riff and strike while the iron is
hot or suffer through it like a good little solder.
Capitalizing on the error, by the way, does not mean responding in
upper case. That's just screechy.
My Tony-who-Moylan-thinks-is-God, I did not capitalize your nitpick about a typo,

(What happened to a simple "Oy!"?)

I capitalized your failure to understand that "paramilitary" does not mean
"military." If you don't know the prefix "para-," look it up.
musika
2017-07-20 20:13:26 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Don't use "by", use "before".
--
Ray
UK
Peter Young
2017-07-20 20:26:20 UTC
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Post by musika
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Don't use "by", use "before".
Many thanks, Ray, and also Tony. That's what I wondered, and that's
what I shall use in future. The "by" usage has become common in these
newsletter announcements, and will be shunned by me in future.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Ir)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
musika
2017-07-20 21:16:58 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by musika
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Don't use "by", use "before".
Many thanks, Ray, and also Tony. That's what I wondered, and that's
what I shall use in future. The "by" usage has become common in these
newsletter announcements, and will be shunned by me in future.
I think there are several of these expressions that are open to
misinterpretation.
I remember asking a colleague to change an instruction from "...draw a
line on either side..." to "...draw a line on both sides...", which is
what she meant.
--
Ray
UK
Jerry Friedman
2017-07-20 21:51:17 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by musika
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Don't use "by", use "before".
Many thanks, Ray, and also Tony. That's what I wondered, and that's
what I shall use in future. The "by" usage has become common in these
newsletter announcements, and will be shunned by me in future.
Actually, I'd use "on or before the 19th" instead of "before the 20th"
to accommodate any excellent walkers and charming conversationalists who
see the date better than the preposition.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2017-07-20 20:14:44 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
While it might have been phrased more precisely, I would consider that
"by Thursday 20th" includes that day as an acceptable day in which
notification can be placed.

To make Wednesday 19th the cut-off, it would be "before Thursday
20th".

Since you need to make advance arrangements based on the number of
attendees, I would even set a cut-off time: Please phone Peter before
noon on Wednesday 20th so he can book a table at...". That allows you
to know the number by Wednesday afternoon to make the call.

In the US, though, we don't write "Wednesday 19th". We might write
"Wednesday the 19th" if we don't consider the month to be necessary.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
John Varela
2017-07-21 17:30:38 UTC
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On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:14:44 UTC, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
While it might have been phrased more precisely, I would consider that
"by Thursday 20th" includes that day as an acceptable day in which
notification can be placed.
+1
--
John Varela
Richard Heathfield
2017-07-20 20:26:46 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
While you're waiting for the wise people to respond, I'll throw my
tuppence into the ring and say that I interpret "by [<time> on] <date>"
as meaning "no later than [<time> on] <date>".

If you had said "by 3pm on Thu 20th" and they'd phoned at 3pm,
presumably you'd agree that they had met the deadline. If you omit the
time, consistency suggests that any time up to midnight of that date is
fine.

But it is entirely possible to take the opposite point of view and yet
remain consistent, simply by defining "by" as synonymous with "before"
(in which case, in the 3pm example, you would accept a call that came at
2:59pm but reject a call that came at 3pm).

If you want to be maximally helpful, the old rule applies: be strict in
what you produce, but generous in what you accept. If someone else says
"by Thu 20th", ensure that you respond on the 19th or earlier, but if
/you/ say "by Thu 20th", be prepared to accept responses /on/ the 20th.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Young
2017-07-20 20:59:52 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
While you're waiting for the wise people to respond, I'll throw my
tuppence into the ring and say that I interpret "by [<time> on] <date>"
as meaning "no later than [<time> on] <date>".
If you had said "by 3pm on Thu 20th" and they'd phoned at 3pm,
presumably you'd agree that they had met the deadline. If you omit the
time, consistency suggests that any time up to midnight of that date is
fine.
But it is entirely possible to take the opposite point of view and yet
remain consistent, simply by defining "by" as synonymous with "before"
(in which case, in the 3pm example, you would accept a call that came at
2:59pm but reject a call that came at 3pm).
If you want to be maximally helpful, the old rule applies: be strict in
what you produce, but generous in what you accept. If someone else says
"by Thu 20th", ensure that you respond on the 19th or earlier, but if
/you/ say "by Thu 20th", be prepared to accept responses /on/ the 20th.
Verb sap.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Ir)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
GordonD
2017-07-21 08:51:37 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
While you're waiting for the wise people to respond, I'll throw my
tuppence into the ring and say that I interpret "by [<time> on] <date>"
as meaning "no later than [<time> on] <date>".
If you had said "by 3pm on Thu 20th" and they'd phoned at 3pm,
presumably you'd agree that they had met the deadline. If you omit the
time, consistency suggests that any time up to midnight of that date is
fine.
In theory, yes. In practice, anybody who phones at two minutes before
midnight is likely to be told to go forth and multiply...
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
charles
2017-07-21 09:37:57 UTC
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Post by GordonD
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
While you're waiting for the wise people to respond, I'll throw my
tuppence into the ring and say that I interpret "by [<time> on] <date>"
as meaning "no later than [<time> on] <date>".
If you had said "by 3pm on Thu 20th" and they'd phoned at 3pm,
presumably you'd agree that they had met the deadline. If you omit the
time, consistency suggests that any time up to midnight of that date is
fine.
In theory, yes. In practice, anybody who phones at two minutes before
midnight is likely to be told to go forth and multiply...
Intersting. Our Parish Council advertised for a clerk witha closing date.
Three councillors got togetehr at 8pm on that date to chose a short list.
Then we had an application arrive (by email) at 10.30pm. We did consider it
and added that candidate to the short list. Just as well we did, she was
the successful one!
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
Richard Heathfield
2017-07-21 12:53:47 UTC
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<snip>
Post by charles
Post by GordonD
In theory, yes. In practice, anybody who phones at two minutes before
midnight is likely to be told to go forth and multiply...
Intersting. Our Parish Council advertised for a clerk witha closing date.
Three councillors got togetehr at 8pm on that date to chose a short list.
Then we had an application arrive (by email) at 10.30pm. We did consider it
and added that candidate to the short list. Just as well we did, she was
the successful one!
"What time do you call this?"

"11:30am. Why?"

"You were supposed to start work at 9am!"

"So? I'm always two and a half hours late. You knew that before you
hired me."
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Moylan
2017-07-22 14:17:43 UTC
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Post by charles
Post by GordonD
In theory, yes. In practice, anybody who phones at two minutes before
midnight is likely to be told to go forth and multiply...
Intersting. Our Parish Council advertised for a clerk witha closing date.
Three councillors got togetehr at 8pm on that date to chose a short list.
Then we had an application arrive (by email) at 10.30pm. We did consider it
and added that candidate to the short list. Just as well we did, she was
the successful one!
As an academic, I accepted assignments pushed under my office door
before 8 am the following day. Students are very good at pushing
deadlines right to the limit.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Richard Heathfield
2017-07-21 12:50:57 UTC
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<snip>
Post by GordonD
Post by Richard Heathfield
If you had said "by 3pm on Thu 20th" and they'd phoned at 3pm,
presumably you'd agree that they had met the deadline. If you omit the
time, consistency suggests that any time up to midnight of that date
is fine.
In theory, yes. In practice, anybody who phones at two minutes before
midnight is likely to be told to go forth and multiply...
Thu 20 Sept, 23:58:13, Peter's house

BRRRRRRRING! BRRRRRRRING! BRRRRRRRING! BRRRRRRRING!

"Wsfglflb? Hello? What?"

"Hi, Peter! It's me! It's not too late to sign up for the walk, is it?"

[Peter checks his bedside clock: 23:58:31]

"'Fraid so. The deadline was midnight, and by my clock it's two minutes
past. Sorry. Bye now."

[Hangs up, goes back to sleep.]
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Mack A. Damia
2017-07-20 21:17:58 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Sort of the same thing with age restrictions.

"Nobody only 18 admitted". So this means that if you are seventeen
and turn eighteen in couple of days, you are not eligible.

Except, that person trying to gain entry might say, "But I am in my
eighteenth year".

Apparently, your conundrum is not unique. The "common practice"
appears to be the key.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/56335/does-notified-by-date-include-the-end-date
Charles Bishop
2017-07-21 19:34:40 UTC
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Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Sort of the same thing with age restrictions.
"Nobody only 18 admitted". So this means that if you are seventeen
and turn eighteen in couple of days, you are not eligible.
[heh]
Post by Mack A. Damia
Except, that person trying to gain entry might say, "But I am in my
eighteenth year".
Apparently, your conundrum is not unique. The "common practice"
appears to be the key.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/56335/does-notified-by-date-includ
e-the-end-date
--
charles
Quinn C
2017-07-21 20:10:08 UTC
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Post by Mack A. Damia
Sort of the same thing with age restrictions.
"Nobody only 18 admitted". So this means that if you are seventeen
and turn eighteen in couple of days, you are not eligible.
Is the phrasing in quotes actually used, no typo there?
--
The only BS around here is butternut squash, one of the dozens of
varieties of squash I grow. I hope you like squash.
-- Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, S01E10
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-07-20 21:26:04 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Peter.
In my experience in the UK "by Thursday 20th" usually means "not later
than Thursday 20th".

Another way of saying the same thing is "closing date Thursday 20th".
That has the same potential ambiguity but:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/closing_date

closing date
noun

The last date by which something must be submitted for
consideration, especially a job application.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Paul Wolff
2017-07-20 22:59:41 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Peter.
In my experience in the UK "by Thursday 20th" usually means "not later
than Thursday 20th".
Correct. If you disagree, let me know by tomorrow.

[Thinks: it's one minute to midnight as I write and press "Post".]
--
Paul
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
2017-07-20 23:12:13 UTC
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Post by Paul Wolff
[Thinks: it's one minute to midnight as I write and press "Post".]
At 23:59:41, it was 19 seconds to midnight. :-)
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
Mark Brader
2017-07-20 23:10:40 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th".
This means "no later that the last possible time on Thursday (the) 20th".
Post by Peter Young
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
No, the preposition for that meaning is "before".
--
Mark Brader | "In my youth", said the sage, as he shook his grey locks,
Toronto | "I kept all my verbs very supple
***@vex.net | By the use of these smileys -- one shilling a box --
| Allow me to sell you a couple?" --John Dean (after Carroll)
bill van
2017-07-21 02:56:33 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.

That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
--
bill
Peter Young
2017-07-21 06:48:13 UTC
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Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Tony Cooper
2017-07-21 15:24:18 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.

Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.

Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.

Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mack A. Damia
2017-07-21 16:06:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:24:18 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
Loading Image...
s***@gmail.com
2017-07-21 23:07:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:24:18 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
http://www.lafourchettebordelaise.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/DSC04323.jpg
<URL:https://earth.google.com/web/@51.76665454,-2.36813123,15.58044434a,0d,60y,306.39904289h,92.18957834t,0r/data=ClUaUxJNCiUweDQ4NzFhNzEwMzUyYTdmMDc6MHg0NWViZTNlZjczNjc3ZmE2GXOBy2PN4klAIa-zIf_M4ALAKhJGcmFtcHRvbiBvbiBTZXZlcm4YASABIhoKFjdKSzlCRzdyZlhNMk5VcnhyUnFnUXcQAg>

aka <URL:http://tinyurl.com/threehorseshoes>

/dps
Tony Cooper
2017-07-21 23:46:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:24:18 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
http://www.lafourchettebordelaise.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/DSC04323.jpg
aka <URL:http://tinyurl.com/threehorseshoes>
/dps
Peter ask if this was on topic for aue:

Perhaps a good project for the group would be to paint an apostrophe
on the sign listing "Childrens Menu".

I am intrigued by the yellow sign that says "Car batteries sold here"
next to what looks like a residence.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-07-22 11:30:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 19:46:39 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:24:18 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
http://www.lafourchettebordelaise.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/DSC04323.jpg
aka <URL:http://tinyurl.com/threehorseshoes>
/dps
Perhaps a good project for the group would be to paint an apostrophe
on the sign listing "Childrens Menu".
I am intrigued by the yellow sign that says "Car batteries sold here"
next to what looks like a residence.
There is a blue-walled building behind the residence. That may be a
workshop/whatever.

The sign is on the paved space between the pub and the house that leads
to the building behind.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-07-22 12:02:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:30:02 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 19:46:39 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:24:18 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
http://www.lafourchettebordelaise.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/DSC04323.jpg
aka <URL:http://tinyurl.com/threehorseshoes>
/dps
Perhaps a good project for the group would be to paint an apostrophe
on the sign listing "Childrens Menu".
I am intrigued by the yellow sign that says "Car batteries sold here"
next to what looks like a residence.
There is a blue-walled building behind the residence. That may be a
workshop/whatever.
I forgot to mention that the wordshop suggestion was supported by the
mainly white on blue sign partly obscured by the pub. That type of sign
carries safety instructions and warnings and is typical of a workplace
where there are physical hazards.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The sign is on the paved space between the pub and the house that leads
to the building behind.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-07-22 12:49:52 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 13:02:14 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:30:02 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 19:46:39 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:24:18 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
http://www.lafourchettebordelaise.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/DSC04323.jpg
aka <URL:http://tinyurl.com/threehorseshoes>
/dps
Perhaps a good project for the group would be to paint an apostrophe
on the sign listing "Childrens Menu".
I am intrigued by the yellow sign that says "Car batteries sold here"
next to what looks like a residence.
There is a blue-walled building behind the residence. That may be a
workshop/whatever.
I forgot to mention that the wordshop suggestion was supported by the
mainly white on blue sign partly obscured by the pub. That type of sign
carries safety instructions and warnings and is typical of a workplace
where there are physical hazards.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The sign is on the paved space between the pub and the house that leads
to the building behind.
Further searching confirms that the blue-walled building behind the
hosue is a car servicing and repair workshop, The business is "Frampton
Autos".

This is the place from a slightly different position.
http://tinyurl.com/ycthr7md
that stands for a Google url 444 characters long.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Charles Bishop
2017-07-21 19:31:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
I would disagree with you, liking the English as I do, but I also am
informed that the country is rife with eccentrics. In a group of 28
surely there would be at least 3-4 and possibly more. One of these is
sure to see a butterfly that may be unknown to science and go chasing
off after it, while another thinking that the plant just over there
looks to be a close relative of the purple fringed flatbush, while the
3rd wonders if the small stream coursing down the hillside contains any
unusual examples of Myxinidae. Of the 4th and others, I have no
information or speculation.

Still, I think the ID tags might be helpful.
--
charles
Richard Heathfield
2017-07-21 19:43:50 UTC
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Raw Message
<snip>
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Tony Cooper
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
I would disagree with you, liking the English as I do, but I also am
informed that the country is rife with eccentrics. In a group of 28
surely there would be at least 3-4 and possibly more.
In a group of that size, there might conceivably be 3-4 *non*-eccentrics.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Young
2017-07-21 20:37:55 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Tony Cooper
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
I would disagree with you, liking the English as I do, but I also am
informed that the country is rife with eccentrics. In a group of 28
surely there would be at least 3-4 and possibly more.
In a group of that size, there might conceivably be 3-4 *non*-eccentrics.
I think that's a very perceptive comment. The eccentrics are harmless
eccentrics, however.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Katy Jennison
2017-07-21 21:29:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
I would disagree with you, liking the English as I do, but I also am
informed that the country is rife with eccentrics. In a group of 28
surely there would be at least 3-4 and possibly more. One of these is
sure to see a butterfly that may be unknown to science and go chasing
off after it, while another thinking that the plant just over there
looks to be a close relative of the purple fringed flatbush, while the
3rd wonders if the small stream coursing down the hillside contains any
unusual examples of Myxinidae. Of the 4th and others, I have no
information or speculation.
In addition, one of them wants to walk very much faster than the
average, and one very much slower. One has a map, and insists that a
slight modification to Peter's route would be a great improvement. One
lives nearby and is familiar with the route, and keeps disappearing down
short cuts. One has brand-new boots which haven't been sufficiently
"walked-in", and gets a blister and has to stop to apply a plaster. One
insists in subjecting Peter to a long monologue about new discoveries at
Stonehenge, so that Peter risks being distracted and failing to notice
that the group has diverged from the planned route. One falls off a
stile and twists an ankle; one rips a brand-new Gortex jacket on some
concealed barbed-wire. At Janet's end of the procession, there are two
very elderly walkers who insist they are perfectly capable of keeping up
even though they're not. Another one nips behind a bush for a call of
nature and gets left behind. Three stop to competitively photograph a
rather stunning cloud formation. One keeps taking surreptitious swigs
from a hip-flask. One is whistling exasperatingly off-tune. One
carries a plastic bag, and public-spiritedly stops to pick up any little
piece of litter. One wants to tell everyone about a recent hospital
stay, and the whole group keeps re-arranging itself because no-one wants
to hear about it. They are also trying to stay upwind of the one with
the very retro briar pipe, who smokes Condor Sliced.

I'm just guessing, you understand. How many have we got left now?
Post by Charles Bishop
Still, I think the ID tags might be helpful.
--
Katy Jennison
Peter Moylan
2017-07-22 14:50:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Katy Jennison
In addition, one of them wants to walk very much faster than the
average, and one very much slower. One has a map, and insists that a
slight modification to Peter's route would be a great improvement. One
lives nearby and is familiar with the route, and keeps disappearing down
short cuts. One has brand-new boots which haven't been sufficiently
"walked-in", and gets a blister and has to stop to apply a plaster. One
insists in subjecting Peter to a long monologue about new discoveries at
Stonehenge, so that Peter risks being distracted and failing to notice
that the group has diverged from the planned route. One falls off a
stile and twists an ankle; one rips a brand-new Gortex jacket on some
concealed barbed-wire. At Janet's end of the procession, there are two
very elderly walkers who insist they are perfectly capable of keeping up
even though they're not. Another one nips behind a bush for a call of
nature and gets left behind. Three stop to competitively photograph a
rather stunning cloud formation. One keeps taking surreptitious swigs
from a hip-flask. One is whistling exasperatingly off-tune. One
carries a plastic bag, and public-spiritedly stops to pick up any little
piece of litter. One wants to tell everyone about a recent hospital
stay, and the whole group keeps re-arranging itself because no-one wants
to hear about it. They are also trying to stay upwind of the one with
the very retro briar pipe, who smokes Condor Sliced.
I don't know about Peter's group, but you have certainly captured a
description of a group of this type.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
GordonD
2017-07-21 19:32:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
Or link everybody together with these.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Safety-Walking-Velcro-Adjustable-Harness/dp/B071JDGBMB/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1500665488&sr=8-1&keywords=parent+child+wristband
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Tony Cooper
2017-07-21 20:00:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GordonD
Or link everybody together with these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Safety-Walking-Velcro-Adjustable-Harness/dp/B071JDGBMB/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1500665488&sr=8-1&keywords=parent+child+wristband
In 1970, our daughter was three years-old and we were living in a
Chicago suburb. My parents were living in Florida.

When we visited my parents, my mother had purchased a harness and
leash arrangement that was designed for use with a child. Like this:
Loading Image...

My mother had purchased it with the expectation of taking our daughter
for walks in the neighborhood.

I thought my wife was going to explode when she saw it. "She's a
child, not a dog!".

While I, of course, support my wife in all things, I was a bit
sympathetic with my mother on this. Our daughter was quite fast on
her feet, and my mother was not.

To my wife's credit, she allowed my mother to take our daughter for
walks and use the harness and leash and never mentioned any objections
to her mother-in-law.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Young
2017-07-21 21:01:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by GordonD
Or link everybody together with these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Safety-Walking-Velcro-Adjustable-Harness/dp/B
071JDGBMB/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1500665488&sr=8-1&keywords=paren
t+child+wristband
In 1970, our daughter was three years-old and we were living in a
Chicago suburb. My parents were living in Florida.
When we visited my parents, my mother had purchased a harness and
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1WNxrKpXXXXXLXXXXq6xXFXXXG/Jumper-Walkin
g-Infant-Child-Baby-Harness-Toddler-Carrier-Belt-Sling-Strap-Backpack.
jpg
My mother had purchased it with the expectation of taking our daughter
for walks in the neighborhood.
I thought my wife was going to explode when she saw it. "She's a
child, not a dog!".
While I, of course, support my wife in all things, I was a bit
sympathetic with my mother on this. Our daughter was quite fast on
her feet, and my mother was not.
To my wife's credit, she allowed my mother to take our daughter for
walks and use the harness and leash and never mentioned any objections
to her mother-in-law.
When I was working in Ethiopia in the days of my first marriage, my
then wife would take out out toddler daughter walking with these sort
of reins, and came in for all sorts of abuse. Just as said above, the
comments were "inda wisha", "like a dog".

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Katy Jennison
2017-07-21 21:34:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Young
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by GordonD
Or link everybody together with these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Safety-Walking-Velcro-Adjustable-Harness/dp/B
071JDGBMB/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1500665488&sr=8-1&keywords=paren
t+child+wristband
In 1970, our daughter was three years-old and we were living in a
Chicago suburb. My parents were living in Florida.
When we visited my parents, my mother had purchased a harness and
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1WNxrKpXXXXXLXXXXq6xXFXXXG/Jumper-Walkin
g-Infant-Child-Baby-Harness-Toddler-Carrier-Belt-Sling-Strap-Backpack.
jpg
My mother had purchased it with the expectation of taking our daughter
for walks in the neighborhood.
I thought my wife was going to explode when she saw it. "She's a
child, not a dog!".
While I, of course, support my wife in all things, I was a bit
sympathetic with my mother on this. Our daughter was quite fast on
her feet, and my mother was not.
To my wife's credit, she allowed my mother to take our daughter for
walks and use the harness and leash and never mentioned any objections
to her mother-in-law.
When I was working in Ethiopia in the days of my first marriage, my
then wife would take out out toddler daughter walking with these sort
of reins, and came in for all sorts of abuse. Just as said above, the
comments were "inda wisha", "like a dog".
I've never understood those objections. I can only think that the
people who make them have never needed to take a two-year-old anywhere
on foot.
--
Katy Jennison
Tony Cooper
2017-07-21 22:07:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 22:34:54 +0100, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Young
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by GordonD
Or link everybody together with these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Safety-Walking-Velcro-Adjustable-Harness/dp/B
071JDGBMB/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1500665488&sr=8-1&keywords=paren
t+child+wristband
In 1970, our daughter was three years-old and we were living in a
Chicago suburb. My parents were living in Florida.
When we visited my parents, my mother had purchased a harness and
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1WNxrKpXXXXXLXXXXq6xXFXXXG/Jumper-Walkin
g-Infant-Child-Baby-Harness-Toddler-Carrier-Belt-Sling-Strap-Backpack.
jpg
My mother had purchased it with the expectation of taking our daughter
for walks in the neighborhood.
I thought my wife was going to explode when she saw it. "She's a
child, not a dog!".
While I, of course, support my wife in all things, I was a bit
sympathetic with my mother on this. Our daughter was quite fast on
her feet, and my mother was not.
To my wife's credit, she allowed my mother to take our daughter for
walks and use the harness and leash and never mentioned any objections
to her mother-in-law.
When I was working in Ethiopia in the days of my first marriage, my
then wife would take out out toddler daughter walking with these sort
of reins, and came in for all sorts of abuse. Just as said above, the
comments were "inda wisha", "like a dog".
I've never understood those objections. I can only think that the
people who make them have never needed to take a two-year-old anywhere
on foot.
In defense of my wife, we lived in a suburban area with a large,
fenced back yard. Our daughter had never been walked on city streets.
My parents lived in an area where there was quite a bit of traffic on
the streets even though their street wasn't a major thoroughfare.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Adam Funk
2017-07-22 10:58:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Young
When I was working in Ethiopia in the days of my first marriage, my
then wife would take out out toddler daughter walking with these sort
of reins, and came in for all sorts of abuse. Just as said above, the
comments were "inda wisha", "like a dog".
I've never understood those objections. I can only think that the
people who make them have never needed to take a two-year-old anywhere
on foot.
Indeed.

You can now get nicer looking versions, like the "Little Life"
backpacks with reins.
--
A lot of people never use their intiative because no-one
told them to. --- Banksy
Cheryl
2017-07-21 21:49:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by GordonD
Or link everybody together with these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Safety-Walking-Velcro-Adjustable-Harness/dp/B071JDGBMB/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1500665488&sr=8-1&keywords=parent+child+wristband
In 1970, our daughter was three years-old and we were living in a
Chicago suburb. My parents were living in Florida.
When we visited my parents, my mother had purchased a harness and
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1WNxrKpXXXXXLXXXXq6xXFXXXG/Jumper-Walking-Infant-Child-Baby-Harness-Toddler-Carrier-Belt-Sling-Strap-Backpack.jpg
My mother had purchased it with the expectation of taking our daughter
for walks in the neighborhood.
I thought my wife was going to explode when she saw it. "She's a
child, not a dog!".
While I, of course, support my wife in all things, I was a bit
sympathetic with my mother on this. Our daughter was quite fast on
her feet, and my mother was not.
To my wife's credit, she allowed my mother to take our daughter for
walks and use the harness and leash and never mentioned any objections
to her mother-in-law.
I always thought those harnesses were an idea solution for children old
enough to want to walk independently, but too young to be trusted not to
dart into traffic or wander off in a crowd.

(Perhaps I could have worded that a little better - I am assuming that
by the time the child is too big to fit in the harness, they know how to
handle traffic and crowds, but that may be a bit optimistic in some cases.)

I've certainly heard the "treating a child like a dog" argument, but on
the other hand, a small child can move fast enough to get into danger
pretty quickly.
--
Cheryl
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-07-21 21:18:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GordonD
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
Or link everybody together with these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Safety-Walking-Velcro-Adjustable-Harness/dp/B071JDGBMB/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1500665488&sr=8-1&keywords=parent+child+wristband
As this is AUE I must draw attention to part of the product details:

Prevent your children be lost, you can relieved let your children
play with you in some places where has lots of people.It's more
security for you kids and relaxing your mood!
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Young
2017-07-21 20:35:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
It's rather disappointing to read that 28 Brits - presumably adult and
in full possession of their faculties - cannot be trusted to complete
a five-mile hike without adequate supervision.
I would agree totally with that. But the present British attitude is
so obsessed by the dictates of the "elfin safety" brigade that even
our U3A newsletter has an entry that says "all activities are
undertaken on the understanding that you are responsible for your own
welfare". I don't think that on this side of The Pond we have reached
the USAsian level of litigation, but time may well change this.
Post by Tony Cooper
Perhaps you should look into borrowing a pair of Border Collies for
the trek to keep the group together. If none are available, then you
might have use the primary school method of pairing up the walkers and
forming a crocodile with you in front and Janet in the rear.
I assure you that Janet is a very efficient Border Collie!
Post by Tony Cooper
Considering your lack of confidence of being able to shepherd the
group, it would be wise to issue some identical and colorful
(colourful, there?) item of clothing to each walker so they can be
visually identified if they wander off into the gorse or hedgerows or
whatever is found roadside thereabouts.
Also suggested are identification tags on lanyards for each walker.
The tags should read "If found, return to Peter at (name of pub)".
I hope not to live till all that becomes a necessity.

With reference to the "return to pub" comment, I was recently on a
street collection for the local Branch of the Multiple Sclerosis
Society, and was being amazed at what some of the people passing by
were wearing. One outfit that I quite liked was on a man, whose
t-shirt bore the message, "Property of the pub. Please return
immediately".

Peter
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter Moylan
2017-07-22 14:44:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Young
Thanks, and my interpretation was wrong. The only thing I worried
about in letting this person join us is the safety aspect of
shepherding 28 people over nearly five miles. However, the walk is
flat with only two stiles, so I'm sure that Janet and I can easily
keep them in order.
I am delighted that your Janet finally has a name.

I married my present wife one day before my 65th birthday, so that we
could get married while I was still young. Even so, I doubt that any of
our friends assumed that the marriage was because of uncontrollable
lust. I like to think that partnerships at our age are free of
hypocrisy, given that our motivations are rather different from what
they were in our twenties.

As it happens, I had suggested a beach holiday to Lynne (my wife) before
we became partners, and at the last minute she pulled out because of a
fear that it would become serious. Because I had already booked the
accommodation, I invited another friend to join me. Toni and I had a
lovely holiday together -- in a house with separate bedrooms -- and I
doubt that anyone who knew us would even have dreamed to have suggested
any hanky panky. We were "just good friends" in the most literal sense.
If we had been twenty years younger the picture would have been rather
different, but we do change with age.

Now that I think of it, I spent another few days away with another
female friend about six months before or after that vacation, at a folk
festival. Separate tents. Nobody who knows us would even suggest that
there was anything going on between the two of us. Age has its
privileges, and one of those privileges is to be free of gossip about
our intersexual relationships.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
GordonD
2017-07-21 08:55:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if
you don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking
group, in which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th".
In this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my
interpretation of that "by" was that requests should have come
yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find
a message when I came home this evening from one person asking to
come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but
then I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I
allowed her to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to
join the group.
I was about to ask why you assumed the person was female, just because
the application came at the last minute, but then I noticed that Peter
had indeed used the female pronoun in his original message!
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Charles Bishop
2017-07-21 19:13:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
I agree, except that if being flexible means more work for Peter Y and
it happens more often than not, he can insist that the rules are
followed. In the case above, there was some ambivalence in the wording
and so he did the right thing, as he mentioned.

If someone had showed up on the day, without prior notice, and could be
accommodated by the pub, well, then perhaps. But, I've found that there
are people who think the rules don't apply to them and if they are
apologetic, they think they should be accommodated.

In fact, I ran into one (almost literally) just the other day. When I
pointed out his driving error, he was unapologetic, but maintained that
driving in the other, correct, direction would mean inconveniencing
himself. He continued with this non-apologetic explanation on the walk
to the building.
--
charles
Peter Young
2017-07-21 20:20:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
I agree, except that if being flexible means more work for Peter Y and
it happens more often than not, he can insist that the rules are
followed. In the case above, there was some ambivalence in the wording
and so he did the right thing, as he mentioned.
Thanks, and it's reassuring that you say that.
Post by Charles Bishop
If someone had showed up on the day, without prior notice, and could be
accommodated by the pub, well, then perhaps. But, I've found that there
are people who think the rules don't apply to them and if they are
apologetic, they think they should be accommodated.
That has happened on walks that I'd lead, and is always an
embarrassment. So far, the pub has managed to let these people have
their lunch, but that's something that I would be prepared to dig my
heels in over.

<Thinks> What does this all have to do with English usage?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Tony Cooper
2017-07-21 22:21:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Young
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
I agree, except that if being flexible means more work for Peter Y and
it happens more often than not, he can insist that the rules are
followed. In the case above, there was some ambivalence in the wording
and so he did the right thing, as he mentioned.
Thanks, and it's reassuring that you say that.
Post by Charles Bishop
If someone had showed up on the day, without prior notice, and could be
accommodated by the pub, well, then perhaps. But, I've found that there
are people who think the rules don't apply to them and if they are
apologetic, they think they should be accommodated.
That has happened on walks that I'd lead, and is always an
embarrassment. So far, the pub has managed to let these people have
their lunch, but that's something that I would be prepared to dig my
heels in over.
<Thinks> What does this all have to do with English usage?
I think that comparative culture threads are quite acceptable.

I did look up U3A. I get the gist of it, but don't quite see how a
"walking group" fits in to the program other than it does get people
out-and-about and encourages mingling with others. Too many of our
older people become house-bound and isolated.

The part your post lacked, for me, is the interest factor in those
five miles and the leader's role. Do you point out birds, local
architecture, or what?

I'd join a walk with a half-way point destination of interest that
ends up at a pub, but I would want that destination of interest.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-07-22 11:10:36 UTC
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On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 18:21:53 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by Charles Bishop
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Given the ambivalence, you did the right thing by allowing her to join
the group.
That notwithstanding, it seems that you volunteer to make your
community a better place to live and interact. Surely in those
circumstances you can be flexible if you choose, rather than imposing
strict rules. Call the pub, tell them there will one more for lunch
the next day, and you'll have done a good thing for one of your
neighbours rather than disappointing someone.
I agree, except that if being flexible means more work for Peter Y and
it happens more often than not, he can insist that the rules are
followed. In the case above, there was some ambivalence in the wording
and so he did the right thing, as he mentioned.
Thanks, and it's reassuring that you say that.
Post by Charles Bishop
If someone had showed up on the day, without prior notice, and could be
accommodated by the pub, well, then perhaps. But, I've found that there
are people who think the rules don't apply to them and if they are
apologetic, they think they should be accommodated.
That has happened on walks that I'd lead, and is always an
embarrassment. So far, the pub has managed to let these people have
their lunch, but that's something that I would be prepared to dig my
heels in over.
<Thinks> What does this all have to do with English usage?
I think that comparative culture threads are quite acceptable.
I did look up U3A. I get the gist of it, but don't quite see how a
"walking group" fits in to the program other than it does get people
out-and-about and encourages mingling with others. Too many of our
older people become house-bound and isolated.
The part your post lacked, for me, is the interest factor in those
five miles and the leader's role. Do you point out birds, local
architecture, or what?
I'd expect the leader to be responsible for navigation and for setting a
speed of walking that is not too fast and not too slow.
Post by Tony Cooper
I'd join a walk with a half-way point destination of interest that
ends up at a pub, but I would want that destination of interest.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Lewis
2017-07-21 05:53:04 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
I would say that BY the 20th means "before the end of the day" and
BEFORE teh 20th means before the 20th starts.
--
"Yes," said the skull. "Quit while you're a head, that's what I say."
grabber
2017-07-21 07:01:56 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
As it happens, I undertook a piece of work that I agreed to complete
"by" today. I finished it yesterday, but wanted to have one more read
through before submitting it. I did that this morning, before emailing
it off at 6:30 am. I would be very surprised at any suggestion that I
had not met the agreed deadline. I would, however have been a little
uneasy about sending it at 6:30 pm. So I think it is a bit of a grey area.
Lewis
2017-07-21 12:52:09 UTC
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Post by grabber
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
As it happens, I undertook a piece of work that I agreed to complete
"by" today. I finished it yesterday, but wanted to have one more read
through before submitting it. I did that this morning, before emailing
it off at 6:30 am. I would be very surprised at any suggestion that I
had not met the agreed deadline. I would, however have been a little
uneasy about sending it at 6:30 pm. So I think it is a bit of a grey area.
I think in the context of work, the end of the day is 5pm (or whatever
is typical for your workplace). So, if some work project was due by the
20th and you turned it in a 6:30pm, I'd think that was probably late.

When coordinating deadlines with people I will try to set a time and time
zone if it is that time sensitive, and if any people involved are
outside the US the times for everything are in UTC. It may seem silly to
people sometimes when I say "This needs to be completed by 1700 MDT
(-0600)" but that specificity has avoided serious problems at least once
when part of a project was being handled by a local company, but the
person actually doing the work was in UTC +0300 or something (Hungary or
Belarus or someplace).

I have used BST once when the only outside the US people were Brits, but
that was a mistake as it turned out too many people assume that "British
Time" and UTC are identical.

When playing online, we tend to use either "server time" or UTC, though
some people cling to "Eastern Time" and never even distinguish between
EST and EDT or do so improperly.

I had a conference call last summer at "4pm EST" which I dutifully put
in my calendar as 4pm EST and then was an hour off because they
"obviously" meant Eastern DAYLIGHT Time. Sigh.
--
Maybe I should have seen it as some kind of sign, except I don't believe
in them no more; no no, but I believe these things I can't forget, tho I
don't see you anymore.
Katy Jennison
2017-07-21 14:30:58 UTC
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Post by Lewis
Post by grabber
Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
As it happens, I undertook a piece of work that I agreed to complete
"by" today. I finished it yesterday, but wanted to have one more read
through before submitting it. I did that this morning, before emailing
it off at 6:30 am. I would be very surprised at any suggestion that I
had not met the agreed deadline. I would, however have been a little
uneasy about sending it at 6:30 pm. So I think it is a bit of a grey area.
I think in the context of work, the end of the day is 5pm (or whatever
is typical for your workplace). So, if some work project was due by the
20th and you turned it in a 6:30pm, I'd think that was probably late.
In a work context, if I said "get it to me by the end of Tuesday" I
wouldn't actually be expecting to look at whatever-it-was until
Wednesday morning, so it wouldn't matter if it came in after working
hours on Tues.

In my experience of the Open University in the UK, students with a
specific deadline for a piece of work have been known to travel to their
tutor's home and shove it through the letter-box at 11.55pm. Also in my
experience, a tutor who finds an assignment on the doormat at 7 the
following morning isn't actually bothered about whether it arrived at
11.55pm or after midnight.
--
Katy Jennison
Adam Funk
2017-07-21 14:21:26 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
For me, that means "phone ... on or before Thursday 20th". I wondered
if that might be an Americanism, but I don't recall my understanding
of the expression ever causing any problems in the UK.
--
They do (play, that is), and nobody gets killed, but Metallic K.O. is
the only rock album I know where you can actually hear hurled beer
bottles breaking against guitar strings. --- Lester Bangs
Charles Bishop
2017-07-21 19:04:49 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Background information: I belong to the local U3A (Google this if you
don't know) and one of the groups I belong to is a walking group, in
which I sometimes lead walks.
The entry in the latest newsletter for the walk I'm leading on
Saturday reads, in part "Phone Peter on ***** by Thursday 20th". In
this part of Rightpondia it's the 20th today, and my interpretation of
that "by" was that requests should have come yesterday or sooner.
It's similar to other problems with time and the words for determining a
point therein, or a span of time. For me it would mean that someone
could call /on/ the 20th and it would still be "by" the 20th.

I think that "before" the 20th makes it clear, but I'll allow that
others may have a different sense.
Post by Peter Young
I'd finalised the numbers and phoned the pub yesterday to let them
know how many were coming for lunch. I then was surprised to find a
message when I came home this evening from one person asking to come.
My initial feeling was that this person had applied too late, but then
I realised that the usage may have been ambivalent, so I allowed her
to come.
What do all you wise people think?
Oh, I didn't know that was a requirement. Please ignore the above.
--
charles
Tony Cooper
2017-07-21 19:46:31 UTC
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On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:49 -0700, Charles Bishop
Post by Charles Bishop
It's similar to other problems with time and the words for determining a
point therein, or a span of time. For me it would mean that someone
could call /on/ the 20th and it would still be "by" the 20th.
I entered some photographs in a competition that required entries to
be received by 11:55 PM on (date). I asked the person in charge why
she had picked 11:55. It seemed to be an odd choice.

She replied that she wanted the entries in by midnight on (date), but
wasn't sure if 12:00 PM or 12:00 AM would be understood by all to be
midnight.

Seemed like a sensible avoidance of a possible problem.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
s***@gmail.com
2017-07-21 20:12:59 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:49 -0700, Charles Bishop
Post by Charles Bishop
It's similar to other problems with time and the words for determining a
point therein, or a span of time. For me it would mean that someone
could call /on/ the 20th and it would still be "by" the 20th.
I entered some photographs in a competition that required entries to
be received by 11:55 PM on (date). I asked the person in charge why
she had picked 11:55. It seemed to be an odd choice.
She replied that she wanted the entries in by midnight on (date), but
wasn't sure if 12:00 PM or 12:00 AM would be understood by all to be
midnight.
Seemed like a sensible avoidance of a possible problem.
Suits me. As far as I'm concerned, there is no 12:00 PM or 12:00 AM,
because 0, 12, and 24 are ON the meridian.

I'm still trying to suss out the intent of a parking sign near my office;
did they mean 8 hours parking permitted, 16 hours parking permitted,
or infinite because one of the times on the sign doesn't exist?

I suspect the latter, based on how vigorously any restriction is enforced.

/dps
RH Draney
2017-07-22 00:15:26 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
I entered some photographs in a competition that required entries to
be received by 11:55 PM on (date). I asked the person in charge why
she had picked 11:55. It seemed to be an odd choice.
She replied that she wanted the entries in by midnight on (date), but
wasn't sure if 12:00 PM or 12:00 AM would be understood by all to be
midnight.
Seemed like a sensible avoidance of a possible problem.
Not stated, but also thwarted, is the confusion over whether "midnight
on (date)" means "midnight at the end of (date)" or "midnight at the
beginning of (date)"....r
Charles Bishop
2017-07-22 01:06:36 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:49 -0700, Charles Bishop
Post by Charles Bishop
It's similar to other problems with time and the words for determining a
point therein, or a span of time. For me it would mean that someone
could call /on/ the 20th and it would still be "by" the 20th.
I entered some photographs in a competition that required entries to
be received by 11:55 PM on (date). I asked the person in charge why
she had picked 11:55. It seemed to be an odd choice.
She replied that she wanted the entries in by midnight on (date), but
wasn't sure if 12:00 PM or 12:00 AM would be understood by all to be
midnight.
Seemed like a sensible avoidance of a possible problem.
I had to do something in a timely manner and 12:01 am was mentioned.
Another good way to avoid the 12:00 AM/PM confusion.
--
charles
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