Discussion:
Pled/pleaded
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HVS
2017-12-05 21:21:24 UTC
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(This may be in another thread; if so, apologies.)

In the dispute about the Trump tweet that John
Dowd claims he wrote, one commentator said that it was unbelievable
that Dowd, as a lawyer who worked for the Dept of Justice, would have
written "pled" instead of "pleaded" guilty.

Is that a reasonable shibboleth, or is it conceivable that a US
lawyer might, in fact, have written "pled guilty"?
Richard Yates
2017-12-05 21:40:15 UTC
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On Tue, 05 Dec 2017 21:21:24 +0000, HVS
Post by HVS
(This may be in another thread; if so, apologies.)
In the dispute about the Trump tweet that John
Dowd claims he wrote, one commentator said that it was unbelievable
that Dowd, as a lawyer who worked for the Dept of Justice, would have
written "pled" instead of "pleaded" guilty.
Is that a reasonable shibboleth, or is it conceivable that a US
lawyer might, in fact, have written "pled guilty"?
A commenter to one news story about that cited a Google ngram of US
legal writing that showed about a 1/1000 ratio of "pled" to "pleaded".
I cannot find this now and the report could have been entirely
fabricated, but perhaps someone here can replicate it.
Ross
2017-12-06 19:56:06 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
On Tue, 05 Dec 2017 21:21:24 +0000, HVS
Post by HVS
(This may be in another thread; if so, apologies.)
In the dispute about the Trump tweet that John
Dowd claims he wrote, one commentator said that it was unbelievable
that Dowd, as a lawyer who worked for the Dept of Justice, would have
written "pled" instead of "pleaded" guilty.
Is that a reasonable shibboleth, or is it conceivable that a US
lawyer might, in fact, have written "pled guilty"?
A commenter to one news story about that cited a Google ngram of US
legal writing that showed about a 1/1000 ratio of "pled" to "pleaded".
I cannot find this now and the report could have been entirely
fabricated, but perhaps someone here can replicate it.
I'd like to know how to get a Google ngram entirely on "legal writing".
For the general corpora, the "pleaded/pled" ratio has historically
been of the order of 50:1. But in recent years it seems to have come
down to about 10:1 in AmEng. In other words "pled" is becoming more
common.
Neill Massello
2017-12-06 20:22:53 UTC
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Post by Ross
I'd like to know how to get a Google ngram entirely on "legal writing".
For the general corpora, the "pleaded/pled" ratio has historically
been of the order of 50:1. But in recent years it seems to have come
down to about 10:1 in AmEng. In other words "pled" is becoming more
common.
"Pled" is nearly the only form now used in the American media. The Law
of Fewer Syllables, I suppose.
Jerry Friedman
2017-12-07 04:23:57 UTC
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Post by Neill Massello
Post by Ross
I'd like to know how to get a Google ngram entirely on "legal writing".
So would I.
Post by Neill Massello
Post by Ross
For the general corpora, the "pleaded/pled" ratio has historically
been of the order of 50:1. But in recent years it seems to have come
down to about 10:1 in AmEng. In other words "pled" is becoming more
common.
"Pled" is nearly the only form now used in the American media. The Law
of Fewer Syllables, I suppose.
At COCA, it leads 25 to 24 this year in the spoken corpus, which
includes CNN, Fox News, ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, and NPR. All of the hits
for "pled" are for the sense of "enter a plea in court", but six of
those for "pleaded" are for the sense of "begged".

In the newspaper corpus this year, "pleaded" leads "pled" 235 to 5. As
Ben Zimmer said in the article I linked to in my other post, many
reporters are taught that "pled" is a rookie mistake.
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@shaw.ca
2017-12-07 06:14:24 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Neill Massello
Post by Ross
I'd like to know how to get a Google ngram entirely on "legal writing".
So would I.
Post by Neill Massello
Post by Ross
For the general corpora, the "pleaded/pled" ratio has historically
been of the order of 50:1. But in recent years it seems to have come
down to about 10:1 in AmEng. In other words "pled" is becoming more
common.
"Pled" is nearly the only form now used in the American media. The Law
of Fewer Syllables, I suppose.
At COCA, it leads 25 to 24 this year in the spoken corpus, which
includes CNN, Fox News, ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, and NPR. All of the hits
for "pled" are for the sense of "enter a plea in court", but six of
those for "pleaded" are for the sense of "begged".
In the newspaper corpus this year, "pleaded" leads "pled" 235 to 5. As
Ben Zimmer said in the article I linked to in my other post, many
reporters are taught that "pled" is a rookie mistake.
In my experience, that would be a point in the publication's style guide. You
can't say it's wrong. It's in dictionaries and in limited use. But you can
decide which variant your publication will use. The paper that employed me
for 30 years used "pleaded". That style was set before my time there,
so I don't know the reason.

bill
Neill Massello
2017-12-07 21:52:25 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
At COCA, it leads 25 to 24 this year in the spoken corpus, which
includes CNN, Fox News, ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, and NPR. All of the hits
for "pled" are for the sense of "enter a plea in court", but six of
those for "pleaded" are for the sense of "begged".
In the newspaper corpus this year, "pleaded" leads "pled" 235 to 5. As
Ben Zimmer said in the article I linked to in my other post, many
reporters are taught that "pled" is a rookie mistake.
I was thinking of radio and television, where "pled" has become so
common that I only notice when "pleaded" is used. I'm only surprised
that it took this long for it to creep into writing, although "has pled"
is pretty bad, especially for a lawyer.
Steve Hayes
2017-12-16 17:02:10 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
A commenter to one news story about that cited a Google ngram of US
legal writing that showed about a 1/1000 ratio of "pled" to "pleaded".
I cannot find this now and the report could have been entirely
fabricated, but perhaps someone here can replicate it.
I'd be interested in seeing a similar study of "proved" vs "proven".
--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com
Richard Yates
2017-12-16 17:27:58 UTC
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On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:02:10 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Richard Yates
A commenter to one news story about that cited a Google ngram of US
legal writing that showed about a 1/1000 ratio of "pled" to "pleaded".
I cannot find this now and the report could have been entirely
fabricated, but perhaps someone here can replicate it.
I'd be interested in seeing a similar study of "proved" vs "proven".
proved/proven

1800: 300/1
1950: 16/1
2000: 3.5/1
GordonD
2017-12-17 10:20:36 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:02:10 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Richard Yates
A commenter to one news story about that cited a Google ngram of US
legal writing that showed about a 1/1000 ratio of "pled" to "pleaded".
I cannot find this now and the report could have been entirely
fabricated, but perhaps someone here can replicate it.
I'd be interested in seeing a similar study of "proved" vs "proven".
proved/proven
1800: 300/1
1950: 16/1
2000: 3.5/1
"Proven" is far more common in Scotland when preceded by "Not".
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Richard Yates
2017-12-17 14:53:59 UTC
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Post by GordonD
Post by Richard Yates
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:02:10 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Richard Yates
A commenter to one news story about that cited a Google ngram of US
legal writing that showed about a 1/1000 ratio of "pled" to "pleaded".
I cannot find this now and the report could have been entirely
fabricated, but perhaps someone here can replicate it.
I'd be interested in seeing a similar study of "proved" vs "proven".
proved/proven
1800: 300/1
1950: 16/1
2000: 3.5/1
"Proven" is far more common in Scotland when preceded by "Not".
Interesting:

"not proved"/"not proven"

2000:
AllE: 1/7
AmE: 1/5
BrE: 0
Janet
2017-12-17 15:31:24 UTC
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Post by Richard Yates
Post by GordonD
Post by Richard Yates
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:02:10 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Richard Yates
A commenter to one news story about that cited a Google ngram of US
legal writing that showed about a 1/1000 ratio of "pled" to "pleaded".
I cannot find this now and the report could have been entirely
fabricated, but perhaps someone here can replicate it.
I'd be interested in seeing a similar study of "proved" vs "proven".
proved/proven
1800: 300/1
1950: 16/1
2000: 3.5/1
"Proven" is far more common in Scotland when preceded by "Not".
"not proved"/"not proven"
AllE: 1/7
AmE: 1/5
BrE: 0
In Scottish court trials, there are three potential verdicts
guilty, not guilty, and not proven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_proven

Janet.

Rich Ulrich
2017-12-16 18:41:25 UTC
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On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:02:10 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Richard Yates
A commenter to one news story about that cited a Google ngram of US
legal writing that showed about a 1/1000 ratio of "pled" to "pleaded".
I cannot find this now and the report could have been entirely
fabricated, but perhaps someone here can replicate it.
The preferences that I remember hearing were that legal writing was
almost always "pleaded" - maybe your 1000 to 1 - but US television
featured "pled" as much as "pleaded". Trump's attorney was reported
as having been taped saying "pled" so having that word in the tweet
is hardly evidence of who composed or typed it.
Post by Steve Hayes
I'd be interested in seeing a similar study of "proved" vs "proven".
--
Rich Ulrich
Jerry Friedman
2017-12-06 17:13:10 UTC
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Post by HVS
(This may be in another thread; if so, apologies.)
In the dispute about the Trump tweet that John
Dowd claims he wrote, one commentator said that it was unbelievable
that Dowd, as a lawyer who worked for the Dept of Justice, would have
written "pled" instead of "pleaded" guilty.
Is that a reasonable shibboleth, or is it conceivable that a US
lawyer might, in fact, have written "pled guilty"?
Ben Zimmer has an article in /The Atlantic/ in which he quotes /The
Wall Street Journal/ quoting Dowd himself using "pled".

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/12/looking-for-the-linguistic-smoking-gun-in-a-trump-tweet/547361/
--
Jerry Friedman
HVS
2017-12-10 15:54:24 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by HVS
(This may be in another thread; if so, apologies.)
In the dispute about the Trump tweet that John
Dowd claims he wrote, one commentator said that it was unbelievable
that Dowd, as a lawyer who worked for the Dept of Justice, would have
written "pled" instead of "pleaded" guilty.
Is that a reasonable shibboleth, or is it conceivable that a US
lawyer might, in fact, have written "pled guilty"?
Ben Zimmer has an article in /The Atlantic/ in which he quotes /The
Wall Street Journal/ quoting Dowd himself using "pled".
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/12/looking-for-the
-linguistic-smoking-gun-in-a-trump-tweet/547361/
Thanks for that link; interesting info, which confirms that while it's
sometimes a marker of lawyer/layman usage, it's not foolproof.

I had wondered about the point that Zimmer raises at the end of the article
-- that Dowd could have used "pled" to make it more typical of what he
figured would be Trump's, rather than his own, usage.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
g***@gmail.com
2017-12-07 18:27:07 UTC
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On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 1:21:31 PM UTC-8, HVS wrote:


Leaded gas versus led gas.
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