Discussion:
Is Ebonics considered English?
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Ant
2018-08-07 16:29:08 UTC
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My friend says so which I disagree.
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Jerry Friedman
2018-08-07 16:42:39 UTC
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Post by Ant
My friend says so which I disagree.
I think you want "which I disagree with" or "and I disagree" or other
possibilities.

I consider AAVE (African American Vernacular English) to be English, and
so do the people who gave it that name. It doesn't seem to be any
farther from standard dialects than, say, Yorkshire or Geordie is.

"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
--
Jerry Friedman
Lanarcam
2018-08-07 16:46:35 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ant
My friend says so which I disagree.
I think you want "which I disagree with" or "and I disagree" or other
possibilities.
I consider AAVE (African American Vernacular English) to be English, and
so do the people who gave it that name.  It doesn't seem to be any
farther from standard dialects than, say, Yorkshire or Geordie is.
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-07 17:37:32 UTC
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Post by Lanarcam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ant
My friend says so which I disagree.
I think you want "which I disagree with" or "and I disagree" or other
possibilities.
I consider AAVE (African American Vernacular English) to be English, and
so do the people who gave it that name.  It doesn't seem to be any
farther from standard dialects than, say, Yorkshire or Geordie is.
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
No.

The Oakland school board had no idea how to describe what they wanted to do for
their large, impoverished African American student population. They proposed
that the teachers of elementary-school subjects should talk to the children
using their own language (just as in any bilingual-education program) and that
Standard English be taught by a method that would work, namely, as a different
language would be taught.

Are Chinese children whose home language is Cantonese (or any of the other six)
taught in Mandarin from Day 1? (In case "Ant" is still looking.)
Don P
2018-08-07 17:38:31 UTC
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Post by Lanarcam
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
This is no longer a factual question, cf. Wikipedia "Ebonics." The term
has in the last 40 years entered the maelstrom of political dispute and
no longer occurs outside that nexus.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
b***@gmail.com
2018-08-07 20:38:29 UTC
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Post by Don P
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
This is no longer a factual question, cf. Wikipedia "Ebonics." The term
has in the last 40 years entered the maelstrom of political dispute and
no longer occurs outside that nexus.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
What do you call the language or affectation that young white girls and boys adopt to sound like they are black Urban?
David Kleinecke
2018-08-07 21:13:45 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Don P
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
This is no longer a factual question, cf. Wikipedia "Ebonics." The term
has in the last 40 years entered the maelstrom of political dispute and
no longer occurs outside that nexus.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
What do you call the language or affectation that young white girls and boys adopt to sound like they are black Urban?
AAVE - probably bad AAVE. You don't have to be
African-American to speak AAVE.

Personally I have never encountered such a YWG&B.
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-09 16:41:15 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Don P
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
This is no longer a factual question, cf. Wikipedia "Ebonics." The term
has in the last 40 years entered the maelstrom of political dispute and
no longer occurs outside that nexus.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
What do you call the language or affectation that young white girls and boys adopt to sound like they are black Urban?
I don't know a name for it (unlike "Jafaican" in Britain). "Affected
AAVE" might be good.
Post by David Kleinecke
AAVE - probably bad AAVE. You don't have to be
African-American to speak AAVE.
Personally I have never encountered such a YWG&B.
Whereas I grew up surrounded by them.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2018-08-09 20:54:29 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by b***@gmail.com
What do you call the language or affectation that young white girls
and boys adopt to sound like they are black Urban?
AAVE - probably bad AAVE. You don't have to be
African-American to speak AAVE.
Personally I have never encountered such a YWG&B.
An alternative to CMYK?
--
The only BS around here is butternut squash, one of the dozens of
varieties of squash I grow. I hope you like squash.
-- Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, S01E10
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-07 21:42:24 UTC
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Post by Lanarcam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ant
My friend says so which I disagree.
I think you want "which I disagree with" or "and I disagree" or other
possibilities.
I consider AAVE (African American Vernacular English) to be English,
and so do the people who gave it that name.  It doesn't seem to be any
farther from standard dialects than, say, Yorkshire or Geordie is.
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
Do you mean the dialect or the teaching method?

I should mention, by the way, that when "Ebonics" was coined by Robert
Williams back in 1973, it meant not just AAVE but also linguistic
varieties of West Africa and the Caribbean. (I assume that includes
only English and English-related varieties.) It also meant "the
/science/ of black speech sounds or language" (emphasis added). I
haven't heard of anyone using it with those meaning any more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics_(word)

To answer your question, there were lots of black families and white
families on the street where I grew up, and most went to the same
school. Nonetheless, most of the black kids spoke AAVE by preference,
though some could speak a dialect more like the white kids', and the
white kids spoke a somewhat more standard dialect, though most could
speak something more like AAVE and some preferred to, at least with
other kids.

What this dialect difference is a symptom of is people strongly
identifying with their own race, I'd say. That's a result of slavery
and legal and extra-legal discrimination, but it doesn't disappear when
the slavery and legal discrimination end and there are integrated
neighborhoods (though still plenty of American neighborhoods are de
facto segregated or nearly so).
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2018-08-07 23:15:17 UTC
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On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:42:24 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ant
My friend says so which I disagree.
I think you want "which I disagree with" or "and I disagree" or other
possibilities.
I consider AAVE (African American Vernacular English) to be English,
and so do the people who gave it that name.  It doesn't seem to be any
farther from standard dialects than, say, Yorkshire or Geordie is.
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
Do you mean the dialect or the teaching method?
I should mention, by the way, that when "Ebonics" was coined by Robert
Williams back in 1973, it meant not just AAVE but also linguistic
varieties of West Africa and the Caribbean. (I assume that includes
only English and English-related varieties.) It also meant "the
/science/ of black speech sounds or language" (emphasis added). I
haven't heard of anyone using it with those meaning any more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics_(word)
To answer your question, there were lots of black families and white
families on the street where I grew up, and most went to the same
school. Nonetheless, most of the black kids spoke AAVE by preference,
though some could speak a dialect more like the white kids', and the
white kids spoke a somewhat more standard dialect, though most could
speak something more like AAVE and some preferred to, at least with
other kids.
What this dialect difference is a symptom of is people strongly
identifying with their own race, I'd say. That's a result of slavery
and legal and extra-legal discrimination, but it doesn't disappear when
the slavery and legal discrimination end and there are integrated
neighborhoods (though still plenty of American neighborhoods are de
facto segregated or nearly so).
I have been around several African Americans who are, you might say,
bi-lingual. Their language, pronunciation, and intonation changes
depending on who they are with.

A department secretary, who was African American, had the American
version of an RP speaking style at most times. Faultless grammar and
diction. On break, though, when she was with another African American
woman, that changed to AAVE as if they were speaking a different
language.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Stefan Ram
2018-08-07 23:24:48 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
A department secretary, who was African American, had the American
version of an RP speaking style at most times. Faultless grammar and
diction. On break, though, when she was with another African American
woman, that changed to AAVE as if they were speaking a different
language.
"Nah, We Straight"
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-08 02:52:51 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:42:24 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
To answer your question, there were lots of black families and white
families on the street where I grew up, and most went to the same
school. Nonetheless, most of the black kids spoke AAVE by preference,
though some could speak a dialect more like the white kids', and the
white kids spoke a somewhat more standard dialect, though most could
speak something more like AAVE and some preferred to, at least with
other kids.
What this dialect difference is a symptom of is people strongly
identifying with their own race, I'd say. That's a result of slavery
and legal and extra-legal discrimination, but it doesn't disappear when
the slavery and legal discrimination end and there are integrated
neighborhoods (though still plenty of American neighborhoods are de
facto segregated or nearly so).
I have been around several African Americans who are, you might say,
bi-lingual. Their language, pronunciation, and intonation changes
depending on who they are with.
That should, in fact, be the case for every human individual. Even you.
Post by Tony Cooper
A department secretary, who was African American, had the American
version of an RP speaking style at most times. Faultless grammar and
diction. On break, though, when she was with another African American
woman, that changed to AAVE as if they were speaking a different
language.
And there was nothing that wasn't faultless about her grammar and diction
on those occasions, as well. They were just different from yours.
Jerry Friedman
2018-08-09 13:29:57 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:42:24 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ant
My friend says so which I disagree.
I think you want "which I disagree with" or "and I disagree" or other
possibilities.
I consider AAVE (African American Vernacular English) to be English,
and so do the people who gave it that name.  It doesn't seem to be any
farther from standard dialects than, say, Yorkshire or Geordie is.
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
Do you mean the dialect or the teaching method?
I should mention, by the way, that when "Ebonics" was coined by Robert
Williams back in 1973, it meant not just AAVE but also linguistic
varieties of West Africa and the Caribbean. (I assume that includes
only English and English-related varieties.) It also meant "the
/science/ of black speech sounds or language" (emphasis added). I
haven't heard of anyone using it with those meaning any more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics_(word)
To answer your question, there were lots of black families and white
families on the street where I grew up, and most went to the same
school. Nonetheless, most of the black kids spoke AAVE by preference,
though some could speak a dialect more like the white kids', and the
white kids spoke a somewhat more standard dialect, though most could
speak something more like AAVE and some preferred to, at least with
other kids.
What this dialect difference is a symptom of is people strongly
identifying with their own race, I'd say. That's a result of slavery
and legal and extra-legal discrimination, but it doesn't disappear when
the slavery and legal discrimination end and there are integrated
neighborhoods (though still plenty of American neighborhoods are de
facto segregated or nearly so).
I have been around several African Americans who are, you might say,
bi-lingual.
Some might say bilingual, but I'd say bidialectal.

Their language, pronunciation, and intonation changes
Post by Tony Cooper
depending on who they are with.
A department secretary, who was African American, had the American
version of an RP speaking style at most times. Faultless grammar and
diction. On break, though, when she was with another African American
woman, that changed to AAVE as if they were speaking a different
language.
I've heard that kind of thing too, though not as regularly.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-08 02:50:52 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ant
My friend says so which I disagree.
I think you want "which I disagree with" or "and I disagree" or other
possibilities.
I consider AAVE (African American Vernacular English) to be English,
and so do the people who gave it that name.  It doesn't seem to be any
farther from standard dialects than, say, Yorkshire or Geordie is.
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
Do you mean the dialect or the teaching method?
I should mention, by the way, that when "Ebonics" was coined by Robert
Williams back in 1973, it meant not just AAVE but also linguistic
varieties of West Africa and the Caribbean. (I assume that includes
only English and English-related varieties.) It also meant "the
/science/ of black speech sounds or language" (emphasis added). I
haven't heard of anyone using it with those meaning any more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics_(word)
To answer your question, there were lots of black families and white
families on the street where I grew up, and most went to the same
school. Nonetheless, most of the black kids spoke AAVE by preference,
though some could speak a dialect more like the white kids', and the
white kids spoke a somewhat more standard dialect, though most could
speak something more like AAVE and some preferred to, at least with
other kids.
What this dialect difference is a symptom of is people strongly
identifying with their own race, I'd say. That's a result of slavery
and legal and extra-legal discrimination, but it doesn't disappear when
the slavery and legal discrimination end and there are integrated
neighborhoods (though still plenty of American neighborhoods are de
facto segregated or nearly so).
You do need to distinguish, though, between simply the "accent" that
"sounds black" and the grammatical features that distinguish AAVE, such
as using the infinitive form as an aorist (timeless) -- "he be stupid."

Not long ago I told about identifying the WBBM newswoman Felicia Middlebrooks
as black because of the feature I finally pinned down as final consonant
devoicing -- otherwise her speech was indistinguishable from that of any
other WBBM-AM voice.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-08-09 18:06:18 UTC
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Post by Lanarcam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ant
My friend says so which I disagree.
I think you want "which I disagree with" or "and I disagree" or other
possibilities.
I consider AAVE (African American Vernacular English) to be English,
and so do the people who gave it that name.  It doesn't seem to be
any farther from standard dialects than, say, Yorkshire or Geordie
is.
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Is Ebonics a symptom of apartheid?
Sorry, I misread the title:
http://dilbert.wikia.com/wiki/Elbonia
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Ant
2018-08-07 17:13:56 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ant
My friend says so which I disagree.
I think you want "which I disagree with" or "and I disagree" or other
possibilities.
I consider AAVE (African American Vernacular English) to be English, and
so do the people who gave it that name.  It doesn't seem to be any
farther from standard dialects than, say, Yorkshire or Geordie is.
"Ebonics" is a commonly used name for the dialect, but since it also
means a proposed teaching method, it's not a very good one.
Thank you for the quick answer, Jerry. :)
--
"While an ant was wandering under the shade of the tree of Phæton, a
drop of amber enveloped the tiny insect; thus she, who in life was
disregarded, became precious by death." --Martial, Epigrams (c. 80-104
AD), Book VI, Epistle 15.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see
this signature correctly.
/\___/\ If crediting, then use Ant nickname and URL/link.
/ /\ /\ \ Axe ANT from its address if e-mailing privately.
| |o o| | http://antfarm.ma.cx / http://antfarm.home.dhs.org
\ _ /
( )
Peter T. Daniels
2018-08-07 17:33:27 UTC
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Post by Ant
My friend says so which I disagree.
"Ebonics" is a stupid word, born in ignorance, and fortunately the fad for it
seems to have died out. It was a portmanteau of "ebony" and "phonics," probably
because "phonics" was the only word educationists in Oakland, CA, had ever heard
that might have anything to do with language or linguistics (it doesn't).
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