Discussion:
Interesting use of "Spanish" in AmE dialect
(too old to reply)
Will Parsons
2017-10-01 00:59:03 UTC
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I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.

My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in the
(South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've never
actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely
referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.

We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among other
things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too much noise.
The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred to them first as
"Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something like: "no, not
Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather
from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto Ricans, but
not e.g. Dominicans.

So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the obvious in
other American (or other) dialects?
--
Will
Tony Cooper
2017-10-01 01:26:16 UTC
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Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
I don't think that's limited to "blue collar" circles or to the more
educated in the US. More, much more, common is "Hispanic", but
"Spanish" is used in casual conversation across the economic/education
lines.
Post by Will Parsons
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in the
(South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've never
actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely
referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.
Here in Florida, we have a pretty wide mix of Puerto Ricans, Cubans,
Mexicans, and other nationalities that fit the term. We are quite
used to standing somewhere where someone is speaking Spanish, so we
tend to apply that to the person. "I couldn't understand her. She's
Spanish" combines the language with nationality attribution.

We might be greatly surprised to find that a Spanish-speaker is
actually from Spain. Not too many actual Spaniards down here.

What does surprise me is how few Floridians know that Puerto Ricans
are US citizens. It's a rare day in Florida, if you're out and about,
that you don't have some contact with a Puerto Rican.

With all the news about the shape Puerto Rico is in after the
hurricanes, there are still a surprisingly large number of people who
think we should help the Americans out before we lend any aid to
foreigners.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2017-10-01 10:57:45 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
With all the news about the shape Puerto Rico is in after the
hurricanes, there are still a surprisingly large number of people who
think we should help the Americans out before we lend any aid to
foreigners.
That's not precisely what Trump said today, but it comes close.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Janet
2017-10-01 13:52:36 UTC
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In article <***@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...
Post by Tony Cooper
What does surprise me is how few Floridians know that Puerto Ricans
are US citizens.
Or Trump.

It's a rare day in Florida, if you're out and about,
Post by Tony Cooper
that you don't have some contact with a Puerto Rican.
With all the news about the shape Puerto Rico is in after the
hurricane
there are still a surprisingly large number of people who
Post by Tony Cooper
think we should help the Americans out before we lend any aid to
foreigners.
Apparently Trump thinks Puerto Ricans should help themselves.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/30/politics/trump-tweets-puerto-rico-
mayor/index.html

Janet
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-01 14:45:43 UTC
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Post by Janet
@gmail.com says...
Post by Tony Cooper
What does surprise me is how few Floridians know that Puerto Ricans
are US citizens.
Or Trump.
It's a rare day in Florida, if you're out and about,
Post by Tony Cooper
that you don't have some contact with a Puerto Rican.
With all the news about the shape Puerto Rico is in after the
hurricane
there are still a surprisingly large number of people who
Post by Tony Cooper
think we should help the Americans out before we lend any aid to
foreigners.
Apparently Trump thinks Puerto Ricans should help themselves.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/30/politics/trump-tweets-puerto-rico-
mayor/index.html
Well at least he now knows that it's an island, even if he does think
it's in the middle of the Atlantic. Ideal for laying down golf courses
for his rich buddies to enjoy. Of course, he'd need to dispose of a lot
of brown people to do that, but that shouldn't be a problem.
--
athel
Tony Cooper
2017-10-01 15:29:55 UTC
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On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 16:45:43 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Janet
@gmail.com says...
Post by Tony Cooper
What does surprise me is how few Floridians know that Puerto Ricans
are US citizens.
Or Trump.
It's a rare day in Florida, if you're out and about,
Post by Tony Cooper
that you don't have some contact with a Puerto Rican.
With all the news about the shape Puerto Rico is in after the
hurricane
there are still a surprisingly large number of people who
Post by Tony Cooper
think we should help the Americans out before we lend any aid to
foreigners.
Apparently Trump thinks Puerto Ricans should help themselves.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/30/politics/trump-tweets-puerto-rico-
mayor/index.html
Well at least he now knows that it's an island, even if he does think
it's in the middle of the Atlantic. Ideal for laying down golf courses
for his rich buddies to enjoy. Of course, he'd need to dispose of a lot
of brown people to do that, but that shouldn't be a problem.
He's been there, done that. He took over a golf course in Puerto Rico
in 2008. It later went bankrupt leaving the Puerto Rican government
saddled with $32.6 million in debt over government-issued bonds.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-10-01 15:27:26 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Janet
@gmail.com says...
Post by Tony Cooper
What does surprise me is how few Floridians know that Puerto Ricans
are US citizens.
Or Trump.
It's a rare day in Florida, if you're out and about,
Post by Tony Cooper
that you don't have some contact with a Puerto Rican.
With all the news about the shape Puerto Rico is in after the
hurricane
there are still a surprisingly large number of people who
Post by Tony Cooper
think we should help the Americans out before we lend any aid to
foreigners.
Apparently Trump thinks Puerto Ricans should help themselves.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/30/politics/trump-tweets-puerto-rico-
mayor/index.html
Janet
My information about conditions in Puerto Rico following hurricane Maria
is gained from US-based news sources. Based on what I understand from
that, my very clear impression is that Trump has effectively zero
comprehension of the conditions on the ground.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Garrett Wollman
2017-10-01 22:31:51 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
My information about conditions in Puerto Rico following hurricane Maria
is gained from US-based news sources. Based on what I understand from
that, my very clear impression is that Trump has effectively zero
comprehension of the conditions on the ground.
Based on what I understand from living in the United States, my very
clear impression is that Trump has effectively zero comprehension of
anything.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Rich Ulrich
2017-10-02 00:30:43 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
My information about conditions in Puerto Rico following hurricane Maria
is gained from US-based news sources. Based on what I understand from
that, my very clear impression is that Trump has effectively zero
comprehension of the conditions on the ground.
Based on what I understand from living in the United States, my very
clear impression is that Trump has effectively zero comprehension of
anything.
Zero on comprehension. Or, worse, negative scores.
--
Rich Ulrich
Lewis
2017-10-01 02:54:34 UTC
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Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
Really? I mostly hear "Mexican" for anyone from any country south of the
US, including Brazil.

My friends from Columbia, Peru, Costa Rica, and El Salvador really hate
it,
Post by Will Parsons
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in the
(South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've never
actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely
referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among other
things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too much noise.
The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred to them first as
"Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something like: "no, not
Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather
from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto Ricans, but
not e.g. Dominicans.
Are you sure it doesn't just mean "brown"?

But I've never heard this in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, or
California whee I've lived (albeit briefly in Arizona and only by proxy
in New Mexico).
Post by Will Parsons
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the obvious in
other American (or other) dialects?
Not that I've noticed.
--
Penny, I'm a physicist. I have a working knowledge of the entire
universe and everything it contains.
Will Parsons
2017-10-01 22:23:34 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
Really? I mostly hear "Mexican" for anyone from any country south of the
US, including Brazil.
As I said, I've never actully *lived* in (South-)West, but if what you say is
correct, then "Mexican" is a blanket term, like "Spanish", for anyone from
South-of-the-Border.
Post by Lewis
My friends from Columbia, Peru, Costa Rica, and El Salvador really hate
it,
I don't blame them.
Post by Lewis
Post by Will Parsons
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in the
(South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've never
actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely
referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among other
things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too much noise.
The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred to them first as
"Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something like: "no, not
Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather
from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto Ricans, but
not e.g. Dominicans.
Are you sure it doesn't just mean "brown"?
Yes. This is *not* a racial term, but an interesting distinction between
"Spanish", as meaning Puerto Ricans, and other people from Spanish-speaking
people from other countries.
--
Will
Ken Blake
2017-10-02 18:14:20 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Lewis
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
Really? I mostly hear "Mexican" for anyone from any country south of the
US, including Brazil.
As I said, I've never actully *lived* in (South-)West, but if what you say is
correct, then "Mexican" is a blanket term, like "Spanish", for anyone from
South-of-the-Border.
I've lived in the Southwest (Arizona) for the past 25 years, and if
there are people who use "Mexican" to mean that here, I've never met
any.
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-01 03:47:21 UTC
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Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in the
(South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've never
actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely
referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.
In this part of the Southwest, namely northern New Mexico (and maybe
southern Colorado), some Hispanic people refer to themselves as Spanish
to mean that their ancestors have been here since the 17th century,
maybe even 1598 aside from an interruption (1680-1692), and consequently
are not Mexican but white and shouldn't be subjected to racism by white
people. That seems to be less common now than it was even when I moved
here in 1990.

I read recently in a not particularly reliable source that a few
families tried to keep their blood "pure Spanish", but I wonder what DNA
tests would show.
Post by Will Parsons
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among other
things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too much noise.
The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred to them first as
"Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something like: "no, not
Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather
from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto Ricans, but
not e.g. Dominicans.
Are you sure she didn't have a thinko and say "they're Spanish" for
"they speak Spanish", and then correct herself?
Post by Will Parsons
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the obvious in
other American (or other) dialects?
Well, around here I've never, ever heard it used to mean someone of
recent immigrant ancestry from Latin America.
--
Jerry Friedman
Will Parsons
2017-10-01 22:29:19 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in the
(South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've never
actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely
referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.
In this part of the Southwest, namely northern New Mexico (and maybe
southern Colorado), some Hispanic people refer to themselves as Spanish
to mean that their ancestors have been here since the 17th century,
maybe even 1598 aside from an interruption (1680-1692), and consequently
are not Mexican but white and shouldn't be subjected to racism by white
people. That seems to be less common now than it was even when I moved
here in 1990.
Since "Hispanic" now seems to be a racial term, I can understand that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I read recently in a not particularly reliable source that a few
families tried to keep their blood "pure Spanish", but I wonder what DNA
tests would show.
Post by Will Parsons
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among other
things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too much noise.
The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred to them first as
"Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something like: "no, not
Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather
from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto Ricans, but
not e.g. Dominicans.
Are you sure she didn't have a thinko and say "they're Spanish" for
"they speak Spanish", and then correct herself?
Yes. This woman is a relative and I'm quite familiar with her speech
patterns. She meant what she said (admitting that she originally confused
Dominicans with "Spanish" because, after all, they *did* speak Spanish).
--
Will
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-02 00:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in the
(South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've never
actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely
referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.
In this part of the Southwest, namely northern New Mexico (and maybe
southern Colorado), some Hispanic people refer to themselves as Spanish
to mean that their ancestors have been here since the 17th century,
maybe even 1598 aside from an interruption (1680-1692), and consequently
are not Mexican but white and shouldn't be subjected to racism by white
people. That seems to be less common now than it was even when I moved
here in 1990.
Since "Hispanic" now seems to be a racial term, I can understand that.
Such people object to "Mexican" but not much to "Hispanic", if at all.
Probably most of them have less Native ancestry than the average
Mexican, but more than zero.
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
I read recently in a not particularly reliable source that a few
families tried to keep their blood "pure Spanish", but I wonder what DNA
tests would show.
Post by Will Parsons
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among other
things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too much noise.
The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred to them first as
"Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something like: "no, not
Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather
from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto Ricans, but
not e.g. Dominicans.
Are you sure she didn't have a thinko and say "they're Spanish" for
"they speak Spanish", and then correct herself?
Yes. This woman is a relative and I'm quite familiar with her speech
patterns. She meant what she said (admitting that she originally confused
Dominicans with "Spanish" because, after all, they *did* speak Spanish).
That is, she meant what she didn't say, "Puerto Rican"?
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2017-10-02 14:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has a
certain amount of education. However, in more "blue colar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly
used in the (South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in
mind that I've never actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the
US North East as most likely referring to Puerto Ricans, but in
principle applying to anyone from any Spanish-American country.
In this part of the Southwest, namely northern New Mexico (and
maybe southern Colorado), some Hispanic people refer to themselves
as Spanish to mean that their ancestors have been here since the
17th century, maybe even 1598 aside from an interruption
(1680-1692), and consequently are not Mexican but white and
shouldn't be subjected to racism by white people. That seems to be
less common now than it was even when I moved here in 1990.
Since "Hispanic" now seems to be a racial term, I can understand that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I read recently in a not particularly reliable source that a few
families tried to keep their blood "pure Spanish", but I wonder
what DNA tests would show.
Our landlord in Mexico City around 1960, Garcia-Granados by name, was
pale-skinned and rosy-cheeked with light-brown hair. I was told he was
a descendant of the last Spanish governor, and I think his DNA would
have confirmed it.
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who,
among other things, complained about her next-door neighbours,
who made too much noise. The linguistic point of interest here is
that she referred to them first as "Spanish", and then corrected
herself, saying something like: "no, not Spanish, they're
Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather from
this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto
Ricans, but not e.g. Dominicans.
Are you sure she didn't have a thinko and say "they're Spanish"
for "they speak Spanish", and then correct herself?
Yes. This woman is a relative and I'm quite familiar with her
speech patterns. She meant what she said (admitting that she
originally confused Dominicans with "Spanish" because, after all,
they *did* speak Spanish).
Apparently "Spanish Harlem" was mostly Puerto-Rican.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Harlem#Spanish_Harlem
Jerry Friedman
2017-10-02 14:25:46 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has a
certain amount of education.  However, in more "blue colar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly
used in the (South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in
mind that I've never actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the
US North East as most likely referring to Puerto Ricans, but in
principle applying to anyone from any Spanish-American country.
In this part of the Southwest, namely northern New Mexico (and
maybe southern Colorado), some Hispanic people refer to themselves
as Spanish to mean that their ancestors have been here since the
17th century, maybe even 1598 aside from an interruption
(1680-1692), and consequently are not Mexican but white and
shouldn't be subjected to racism by white people.  That seems to be
less common now than it was even when I moved here in 1990.
Since "Hispanic" now seems to be a racial term, I can understand that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I read recently in a not particularly reliable source that a few
families tried to keep their blood "pure Spanish", but I wonder
what DNA tests would show.
Our landlord in Mexico City around 1960, Garcia-Granados by name, was
pale-skinned and rosy-cheeked with light-brown hair.  I was told he was
a descendant of the last Spanish governor, and I think his DNA would
have confirmed it.
I had a student with a completely Spanish name who had red hair and
light skin. When I mentioned I was from Cleveland, he said he was
related to Paul Brown (founder of the Cleveland Browns [American
football]), which I had no reason to doubt. But I'll bet you could find
some indigenous genes in his chromosomes too.
Post by CDB
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who,
among other things, complained about her next-door neighbours,
who made too much noise. The linguistic point of interest here is
that she referred to them first as "Spanish", and then corrected
herself, saying something like: "no, not Spanish, they're
Dominicans".  This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather from
this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto
Ricans, but not e.g. Dominicans.
Are you sure she didn't have a thinko and say "they're Spanish"
for "they speak Spanish", and then correct herself?
Yes.  This woman is a relative and I'm quite familiar with her
speech patterns.  She meant what she said (admitting that she
originally confused Dominicans with "Spanish" because, after all,
they *did* speak Spanish).
Apparently "Spanish Harlem" was mostly Puerto-Rican.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Harlem#Spanish_Harlem
I thought it was French, since Therese arose there.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2017-10-02 15:36:18 UTC
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Raw Message
[Spanish, with blue eyes]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Apparently "Spanish Harlem" was mostly Puerto-Rican.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Harlem#Spanish_Harlem
I thought it was French, since Therese arose there.
Una francesa con genes payasos.
Cheryl
2017-10-02 15:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has a
certain amount of education. However, in more "blue colar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly
used in the (South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in
mind that I've never actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the
US North East as most likely referring to Puerto Ricans, but in
principle applying to anyone from any Spanish-American country.
In this part of the Southwest, namely northern New Mexico (and
maybe southern Colorado), some Hispanic people refer to themselves
as Spanish to mean that their ancestors have been here since the
17th century, maybe even 1598 aside from an interruption
(1680-1692), and consequently are not Mexican but white and
shouldn't be subjected to racism by white people. That seems to be
less common now than it was even when I moved here in 1990.
Since "Hispanic" now seems to be a racial term, I can understand that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I read recently in a not particularly reliable source that a few
families tried to keep their blood "pure Spanish", but I wonder
what DNA tests would show.
Our landlord in Mexico City around 1960, Garcia-Granados by name, was
pale-skinned and rosy-cheeked with light-brown hair. I was told he was
a descendant of the last Spanish governor, and I think his DNA would
have confirmed it.
I had a student with a completely Spanish name who had red hair and
light skin. When I mentioned I was from Cleveland, he said he was
related to Paul Brown (founder of the Cleveland Browns [American
football]), which I had no reason to doubt. But I'll bet you could find
some indigenous genes in his chromosomes too.
Generalizations based on appearance can be way off base. I went on a
student exchange program many years ago, and everyone commented on how a
brown-eyed dark-haired student didn't look Norwegian at all. He smiled
patiently in a way that showed that he was very accustomed to such
comments, and just said that his parents were Norwegian as well, and
also brown-eyed and dark-haired.
--
Cheryl
Whiskers
2017-10-02 17:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cheryl
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has a
certain amount of education. However, in more "blue colar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly
used in the (South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in
mind that I've never actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the
US North East as most likely referring to Puerto Ricans, but in
principle applying to anyone from any Spanish-American country.
In this part of the Southwest, namely northern New Mexico (and
maybe southern Colorado), some Hispanic people refer to themselves
as Spanish to mean that their ancestors have been here since the
17th century, maybe even 1598 aside from an interruption
(1680-1692), and consequently are not Mexican but white and
shouldn't be subjected to racism by white people. That seems to be
less common now than it was even when I moved here in 1990.
Since "Hispanic" now seems to be a racial term, I can understand that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I read recently in a not particularly reliable source that a few
families tried to keep their blood "pure Spanish", but I wonder
what DNA tests would show.
Our landlord in Mexico City around 1960, Garcia-Granados by name, was
pale-skinned and rosy-cheeked with light-brown hair. I was told he was
a descendant of the last Spanish governor, and I think his DNA would
have confirmed it.
I had a student with a completely Spanish name who had red hair and
light skin. When I mentioned I was from Cleveland, he said he was
related to Paul Brown (founder of the Cleveland Browns [American
football]), which I had no reason to doubt. But I'll bet you could find
some indigenous genes in his chromosomes too.
Generalizations based on appearance can be way off base. I went on a
student exchange program many years ago, and everyone commented on how a
brown-eyed dark-haired student didn't look Norwegian at all. He smiled
patiently in a way that showed that he was very accustomed to such
comments, and just said that his parents were Norwegian as well, and
also brown-eyed and dark-haired.
I think most of the Norwegians I've met have had brown hair and eyes.
Likewise Swedes and Danes.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
David Kleinecke
2017-10-02 20:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has a
certain amount of education. However, in more "blue colar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly
used in the (South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in
mind that I've never actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the
US North East as most likely referring to Puerto Ricans, but in
principle applying to anyone from any Spanish-American country.
In this part of the Southwest, namely northern New Mexico (and
maybe southern Colorado), some Hispanic people refer to themselves
as Spanish to mean that their ancestors have been here since the
17th century, maybe even 1598 aside from an interruption
(1680-1692), and consequently are not Mexican but white and
shouldn't be subjected to racism by white people. That seems to be
less common now than it was even when I moved here in 1990.
Since "Hispanic" now seems to be a racial term, I can understand that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I read recently in a not particularly reliable source that a few
families tried to keep their blood "pure Spanish", but I wonder
what DNA tests would show.
Our landlord in Mexico City around 1960, Garcia-Granados by name, was
pale-skinned and rosy-cheeked with light-brown hair. I was told he was
a descendant of the last Spanish governor, and I think his DNA would
have confirmed it.
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who,
among other things, complained about her next-door neighbours,
who made too much noise. The linguistic point of interest here is
that she referred to them first as "Spanish", and then corrected
herself, saying something like: "no, not Spanish, they're
Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather from
this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto
Ricans, but not e.g. Dominicans.
Are you sure she didn't have a thinko and say "they're Spanish"
for "they speak Spanish", and then correct herself?
Yes. This woman is a relative and I'm quite familiar with her
speech patterns. She meant what she said (admitting that she
originally confused Dominicans with "Spanish" because, after all,
they *did* speak Spanish).
Apparently "Spanish Harlem" was mostly Puerto-Rican.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Harlem#Spanish_Harlem
I used to know a Mexican who was a blond Yiddish-speaking Jew.
Lewis
2017-10-02 23:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has a
certain amount of education. However, in more "blue colar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly
used in the (South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in
mind that I've never actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the
US North East as most likely referring to Puerto Ricans, but in
principle applying to anyone from any Spanish-American country.
In this part of the Southwest, namely northern New Mexico (and
maybe southern Colorado), some Hispanic people refer to themselves
as Spanish to mean that their ancestors have been here since the
17th century, maybe even 1598 aside from an interruption
(1680-1692), and consequently are not Mexican but white and
shouldn't be subjected to racism by white people. That seems to be
less common now than it was even when I moved here in 1990.
Since "Hispanic" now seems to be a racial term, I can understand that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I read recently in a not particularly reliable source that a few
families tried to keep their blood "pure Spanish", but I wonder
what DNA tests would show.
Our landlord in Mexico City around 1960, Garcia-Granados by name, was
pale-skinned and rosy-cheeked with light-brown hair. I was told he was
a descendant of the last Spanish governor, and I think his DNA would
have confirmed it.
My sister's best friend growing up was fairly light skinned, but the
friend's sister was blonde and very light-skinned. The bothers were more
typically colored for upper-class-ish Mexicans.

Growing up skin color among Mexicans was extremely important, and the
darker the skin the poorer and more ignorant one was assumed to be.

In trips back int he 90s and 2000's that didn't seem to have changed
much, if at all.
--
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.
CDB
2017-10-04 13:34:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by CDB
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is
Spanish", that would be understood outside of American (and
Canadian?) English as meaning the person referred to comes
from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean by a
speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education.
However, in more "blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to
someone from the Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most
commonly used in the (South-)West to refer to someone from
Mexico (keep in mind that I've never actually lived in the US
W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely referring to
Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.
In this part of the Southwest, namely northern New Mexico (and
maybe southern Colorado), some Hispanic people refer to
themselves as Spanish to mean that their ancestors have been
here since the 17th century, maybe even 1598 aside from an
interruption (1680-1692), and consequently are not Mexican but
white and shouldn't be subjected to racism by white people.
That seems to be less common now than it was even when I moved
here in 1990.
Since "Hispanic" now seems to be a racial term, I can understand that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I read recently in a not particularly reliable source that a
few families tried to keep their blood "pure Spanish", but I
wonder what DNA tests would show.
Our landlord in Mexico City around 1960, Garcia-Granados by name,
was pale-skinned and rosy-cheeked with light-brown hair. I was
told he was a descendant of the last Spanish governor, and I think
his DNA would have confirmed it.
My sister's best friend growing up was fairly light skinned, but the
friend's sister was blonde and very light-skinned. The bothers were
more typically colored for upper-class-ish Mexicans.
Growing up skin color among Mexicans was extremely important, and
the darker the skin the poorer and more ignorant one was assumed to
be.
I remember overhearing two women in a restaurant there commenting with a
degree of malicious amusement about a friend (as you might say) whose
infant daughter "Bianca" kept getting darker-skinned as she grew older.
Post by Lewis
In trips back int he 90s and 2000's that didn't seem to have changed
much, if at all.
Jack Campin
2017-10-01 09:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has
a certain amount of education. However, in more "blue collar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas. [...]
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than
the obvious in other American (or other) dialects?
In Scotland you would probably want to avoid using it to label
Catalans (and perhaps also Basques and Galicians).

It's odd that "Hispanic" has come to have the wider reference
you're talking about, when it literally means exactly the same.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-01 10:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has
a certain amount of education. However, in more "blue collar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas. [...]
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than
the obvious in other American (or other) dialects?
In Scotland you would probably want to avoid using it to label
Catalans (and perhaps also Basques and Galicians).
It's odd that "Hispanic" has come to have the wider reference
you're talking about, when it literally means exactly the same.
Not always wider; it can be narrower as well. A Chilean acquaintance of
mine (Basque surname, very white, upper class) was denied something
offered in the USA to people of Hispanic origin because he wasn't
Hispanic enough.
--
athel
Lewis
2017-10-01 11:36:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has
a certain amount of education. However, in more "blue collar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas. [...]
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than
the obvious in other American (or other) dialects?
In Scotland you would probably want to avoid using it to label
Catalans (and perhaps also Basques and Galicians).
It's odd that "Hispanic" has come to have the wider reference
you're talking about, when it literally means exactly the same.
Not always wider; it can be narrower as well. A Chilean acquaintance of
mine (Basque surname, very white, upper class) was denied something
offered in the USA to people of Hispanic origin because he wasn't
Hispanic enough.
Meaning "brown".
--
"He has Van Gogh's ear for music." - Billy Wilder
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-01 12:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has
a certain amount of education. However, in more "blue collar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas. [...]
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than
the obvious in other American (or other) dialects?
In Scotland you would probably want to avoid using it to label
Catalans (and perhaps also Basques and Galicians).
It's odd that "Hispanic" has come to have the wider reference
you're talking about, when it literally means exactly the same.
Not always wider; it can be narrower as well. A Chilean acquaintance of
mine (Basque surname, very white, upper class) was denied something
offered in the USA to people of Hispanic origin because he wasn't
Hispanic enough.
Meaning "brown".
Well yes, that's exactly what I meant.
--
athel
Whiskers
2017-10-01 14:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has
a certain amount of education. However, in more "blue collar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas. [...]
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than
the obvious in other American (or other) dialects?
In Scotland you would probably want to avoid using it to label
Catalans (and perhaps also Basques and Galicians).
It's odd that "Hispanic" has come to have the wider reference
you're talking about, when it literally means exactly the same.
Not always wider; it can be narrower as well. A Chilean acquaintance of
mine (Basque surname, very white, upper class) was denied something
offered in the USA to people of Hispanic origin because he wasn't
Hispanic enough.
Meaning "brown".
Well yes, that's exactly what I meant.
In the days of rampant racism in northern Europe, 'Spanish' was barely
better than 'Gipsy' as an epithet.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Carmichael
2017-10-01 16:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Whiskers
In the days of rampant racism in northern Europe, 'Spanish' was barely
better than 'Gipsy' as an epithet.
They're ever so proud of their Gipsy (read flamenco) heritage, but they generally hate
gipsies. Down here in the south, there's an obvious mix with Arab blood and they generally
hate the Arabs.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
David Kleinecke
2017-10-01 19:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Whiskers
In the days of rampant racism in northern Europe, 'Spanish' was barely
better than 'Gipsy' as an epithet.
They're ever so proud of their Gipsy (read flamenco) heritage, but they generally hate
gipsies. Down here in the south, there's an obvious mix with Arab blood and they generally
hate the Arabs.
Here in Humboldt County the situation is confused by the
presence of significant numbers of Native Americans -
Wiyots, Yuroks, Hoopas etc. as well as tribal mixtures.
They look just like stereotyped Mexicans (who are, of
course, of mostly Native American descent). The default
term - when ventured - is Mexican - primarily it is a
cuisine rather than a people.

And, changing topic, I don't know whether tribal names
like Wiyot, Yurok, Hoopa, etc. are collectives or not
and I think I have heard both usages. That is, the
Wiyot tribe (they are an organized group) are "the
Wiyots" or "the Wiyot". Some tribes (the Pomo but I
don't think the Wiyot) are divided into sub-tribes so
the plural could be justified.
Quinn C
2017-10-02 21:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Whiskers
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has
a certain amount of education. However, in more "blue collar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas. [...]
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than
the obvious in other American (or other) dialects?
In Scotland you would probably want to avoid using it to label
Catalans (and perhaps also Basques and Galicians).
It's odd that "Hispanic" has come to have the wider reference
you're talking about, when it literally means exactly the same.
Not always wider; it can be narrower as well. A Chilean acquaintance of
mine (Basque surname, very white, upper class) was denied something
offered in the USA to people of Hispanic origin because he wasn't
Hispanic enough.
Meaning "brown".
Well yes, that's exactly what I meant.
In the days of rampant racism in northern Europe, 'Spanish' was barely
better than 'Gipsy' as an epithet.
Yup. Licentious Catholic folk.
--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220
Quinn C
2017-10-02 21:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has
a certain amount of education. However, in more "blue collar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas. [...]
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than
the obvious in other American (or other) dialects?
In Scotland you would probably want to avoid using it to label
Catalans (and perhaps also Basques and Galicians).
It's odd that "Hispanic" has come to have the wider reference
you're talking about, when it literally means exactly the same.
Not always wider; it can be narrower as well. A Chilean acquaintance of
mine (Basque surname, very white, upper class) was denied something
offered in the USA to people of Hispanic origin because he wasn't
Hispanic enough.
Meaning "brown".
Well yes, that's exactly what I meant.
I've met South American people with obviously majority indigenous
ancestry who have very light skin, similar to East Asians. Are
they considered "brown"?

This is quite confusing.
--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220
Garrett Wollman
2017-10-03 00:44:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
I've met South American people with obviously majority indigenous
ancestry who have very light skin, similar to East Asians. Are
they considered "brown"?
Yes. All people who are not culturally "white" are "brown".

Sometimes "brown" excludes people considered "black", but more
commonly it's a shorter synonym for "non-white" (since essentially all
human skin is either brown or pink).

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Quinn C
2017-10-03 02:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Quinn C
I've met South American people with obviously majority indigenous
ancestry who have very light skin, similar to East Asians. Are
they considered "brown"?
Yes. All people who are not culturally "white" are "brown".
Sometimes "brown" excludes people considered "black", but more
commonly it's a shorter synonym for "non-white" (since essentially all
human skin is either brown or pink).
I thought it might be, against my intuition, that all people not
white or black are considered brown. I'm even more surprised that
brown could encompass all black people - I thought that usage was
completely outdated.

Well, it probably just means I'm thoroughly unfamiliar with this
usage of "brown". I just recently encountered it a few times in
"Master of None", and that currently dominates my understanding.
In this case, it's usually referring to people from India, and at
some point, there's a scene where they explain that the (Indian)
protagonist is not black, he's brown.
--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
Whiskers
2017-10-03 11:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quinn C
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Quinn C
I've met South American people with obviously majority indigenous
ancestry who have very light skin, similar to East Asians. Are
they considered "brown"?
Yes. All people who are not culturally "white" are "brown".
Sometimes "brown" excludes people considered "black", but more
commonly it's a shorter synonym for "non-white" (since essentially all
human skin is either brown or pink).
I thought it might be, against my intuition, that all people not
white or black are considered brown. I'm even more surprised that
brown could encompass all black people - I thought that usage was
completely outdated.
Well, it probably just means I'm thoroughly unfamiliar with this
usage of "brown". I just recently encountered it a few times in
"Master of None", and that currently dominates my understanding.
In this case, it's usually referring to people from India, and at
some point, there's a scene where they explain that the (Indian)
protagonist is not black, he's brown.
In India, and in the Caribbean, shades of complexion are (or at least
were) socially significant.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Quinn C
2017-10-03 18:25:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Whiskers
Post by Quinn C
I thought it might be, against my intuition, that all people not
white or black are considered brown. I'm even more surprised that
brown could encompass all black people - I thought that usage was
completely outdated.
Well, it probably just means I'm thoroughly unfamiliar with this
usage of "brown". I just recently encountered it a few times in
"Master of None", and that currently dominates my understanding.
In this case, it's usually referring to people from India, and at
some point, there's a scene where they explain that the (Indian)
protagonist is not black, he's brown.
In India, and in the Caribbean, shades of complexion are (or at least
were) socially significant.
Different subject. In the story, his best friend as a child was an
African-American girl. She thought that he was black like them,
but at some point, the adults of the family explained that no,
he's brown (but they're both minorities, so it's OK. Something
like that.)
--
Skyler: Uncle Cosmo ... why do they call this a word processor?
Cosmo: It's simple, Skyler ... you've seen what food processors
do to food, right?
Cartoon by Jeff MacNelley
Will Parsons
2017-10-01 22:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has
a certain amount of education. However, in more "blue collar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas. [...]
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than
the obvious in other American (or other) dialects?
In Scotland you would probably want to avoid using it to label
Catalans (and perhaps also Basques and Galicians).
It's odd that "Hispanic" has come to have the wider reference
you're talking about, when it literally means exactly the same.
Not always wider; it can be narrower as well. A Chilean acquaintance of
mine (Basque surname, very white, upper class) was denied something
offered in the USA to people of Hispanic origin because he wasn't
Hispanic enough.
Meaning "brown".
Yes, "Hispanic" is now often taken as a racial term, which means that, oddly
enough, actual Spaniards are not "Hispanic" (and I suppose that "white"
citizens of Spanish-speaking countries might not be considered "Hispanic" as
well).
--
Will
Lewis
2017-10-01 23:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jack Campin
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has
a certain amount of education. However, in more "blue collar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the Spanish-speaking
countries of the Americas. [...]
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than
the obvious in other American (or other) dialects?
In Scotland you would probably want to avoid using it to label
Catalans (and perhaps also Basques and Galicians).
It's odd that "Hispanic" has come to have the wider reference
you're talking about, when it literally means exactly the same.
Not always wider; it can be narrower as well. A Chilean acquaintance of
mine (Basque surname, very white, upper class) was denied something
offered in the USA to people of Hispanic origin because he wasn't
Hispanic enough.
Meaning "brown".
Yes, "Hispanic" is now often taken as a racial term, which means that, oddly
enough, actual Spaniards are not "Hispanic" (and I suppose that "white"
citizens of Spanish-speaking countries might not be considered "Hispanic" as
well).
Yep, as I've detailed in the past the USAF changed my bother's
designation from Hispanic because he "didn't look Hispanic".
--
Sarah, age 18, says "man, once you go Crayola you can't go back."
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-02 01:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jack Campin
It's odd that "Hispanic" has come to have the wider reference
you're talking about, when it literally means exactly the same.
Not always wider; it can be narrower as well. A Chilean acquaintance of
mine (Basque surname, very white, upper class) was denied something
offered in the USA to people of Hispanic origin because he wasn't
Hispanic enough.
Meaning "brown".
Yes, "Hispanic" is now often taken as a racial term, which means that, oddly
Not quite -- as the proud user of a land line, I get political polls every so
often, and at the end they ask a series of questions "for statistical purposes
only." First they ask "Are you Hispanic?" and then they ask "Are you white,
black, Asian, or other?" Hispanics can self-identify as either black or white.
Post by Will Parsons
enough, actual Spaniards are not "Hispanic" (and I suppose that "white"
citizens of Spanish-speaking countries might not be considered "Hispanic" as
well).
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-01 13:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in the
(South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've never
actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely
referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among other
things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too much noise.
The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred to them first as
"Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something like: "no, not
Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather
from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto Ricans, but
not e.g. Dominicans.
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the obvious in
other American (or other) dialects?
Here in the US we say "Hispanic." It seems to be driving out "Latino" -- though
in the 1970s there seemed to be a geographical distinction, with "Latino"
favored in the west, "Hispanic" in the east.

They speak Spanish, except when they don't.
Will Parsons
2017-10-01 22:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in the
(South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've never
actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely
referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among other
things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too much noise.
The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred to them first as
"Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something like: "no, not
Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather
from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto Ricans, but
not e.g. Dominicans.
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the obvious in
other American (or other) dialects?
Here in the US we say "Hispanic." It seems to be driving out "Latino" -- though
in the 1970s there seemed to be a geographical distinction, with "Latino"
favored in the west, "Hispanic" in the east.
They speak Spanish, except when they don't.
"Here in the US"? "We"? You *do* realize that I live in New England, don't
you? And I was reporting an *American* usage?
--
Will
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-02 01:41:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that would
be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as meaning the
person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's what it would mean
by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of education. However, in more
"blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in the
(South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've never
actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most likely
referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone from any
Spanish-American country.
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among other
things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too much noise.
The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred to them first as
"Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something like: "no, not
Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I gather
from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically Puerto Ricans, but
not e.g. Dominicans.
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the obvious in
other American (or other) dialects?
Here in the US we say "Hispanic." It seems to be driving out "Latino" -- though
in the 1970s there seemed to be a geographical distinction, with "Latino"
favored in the west, "Hispanic" in the east.
They speak Spanish, except when they don't.
"Here in the US"? "We"? You *do* realize that I live in New England, don't
you? And I was reporting an *American* usage?
No, I had no reason to know that, but since you asked about American usage
outside Eastern Pennsylvania, the context was against it.
Don Phillipson
2017-10-01 16:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Parsons
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the obvious in
other American (or other) dialects?
Perhaps now rendered obsolete (by Rupert Murdoch's influence
in the newspaper business) "Spanish practices" was the in-group
name in earlier days for printer's union privileges and featherbedding.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Steve Hayes
2017-10-08 11:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that
would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as
meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's
what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of
education. However, in more "blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer
to someone from the Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in
the (South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've
never actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most
likely referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone
from any Spanish-American country.
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among
other things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too
much noise. The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred
to them first as "Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something
like: "no, not Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern
Pennsylvania, and I gather from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means
specifically Puerto Ricans, but not e.g. Dominicans.
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the obvious
in other American (or other) dialects?
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain, and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com
Tony Cooper
2017-10-08 13:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that
would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as
meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's
what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of
education. However, in more "blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer
to someone from the Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in
the (South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've
never actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most
likely referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone
from any Spanish-American country.
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among
other things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too
much noise. The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred
to them first as "Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something
like: "no, not Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern
Pennsylvania, and I gather from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means
specifically Puerto Ricans, but not e.g. Dominicans.
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the obvious
in other American (or other) dialects?
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain, and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-08 14:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish", that
would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?) English as
meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and in fact, that's
what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has a certain amount of
education. However, in more "blue colar" circles, "Spanish" can refer
to someone from the Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly used in
the (South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep in mind that I've
never actually lived in the US W/SW), and in the US North East as most
likely referring to Puerto Ricans, but in principle applying to anyone
from any Spanish-American country.
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who, among
other things, complained about her next-door neighbours, who made too
much noise. The linguistic point of interest here is that she referred
to them first as "Spanish", and then corrected herself, saying something
like: "no, not Spanish, they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern
Pennsylvania, and I gather from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means
specifically Puerto Ricans, but not e.g. Dominicans.
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the obvious
in other American (or other) dialects?
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain, and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
Whereas "around here," she'd more likely be identified as "Dominican" or
"Puerto Rican." There are other possibilities (Cuban more likely in NJ than
in NYC), but a bare "Hispanic" would be unlikely.
CDB
2017-10-08 18:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Will Parsons
I will assume that if I were to say that "So-and-so is Spanish",
that would be understood outside of American (and Canadian?)
English as meaning the person referred to comes from Spain, and
in fact, that's what it would mean by a speaker of AmE who has a
certain amount of education. However, in more "blue colar"
circles, "Spanish" can refer to someone from the
Spanish-speaking countries of the Americas.
My *assumption* has been that "Spanish" might be most commonly
used in the (South-)West to refer to someone from Mexico (keep
in mind that I've never actually lived in the US W/SW), and in
the US North East as most likely referring to Puerto Ricans, but
in principle applying to anyone from any Spanish-American
country.
We had a call this evening from a relative (by marriage), who,
among other things, complained about her next-door neighbours,
who made too much noise. The linguistic point of interest here
is that she referred to them first as "Spanish", and then
corrected herself, saying something like: "no, not Spanish,
they're Dominicans". This is in Eastern Pennsylvania, and I
gather from this snippet that "Spanish" to her means specifically
Puerto Ricans, but not e.g. Dominicans.
So, is "Spanish" used elsewhere to mean something more than the
obvious in other American (or other) dialects?
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
If national origin is meant, people often say "British/anglais de
l'Angleterre" and "French French/francais de la France".

Lucille Starr from Manitoba, not a boulevardière, sang "The French Song"
en français mais pas de la France, et en noir et blanc d'ailleurs.


Mark Brader
2017-10-08 21:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, ***@vex.net
"Omit needless code! Omit needless code! Omit needless code!"
-- Chip Salzenberg (after Strunk & White)
Tony Cooper
2017-10-08 22:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Lewis
2017-10-09 01:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
--
Can't seem to face up to the facts
Tense and nervous and I can't relax
Can't sleep, bed's on fire
Don't touch me I'm a real live wire
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-09 11:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
Hmm. Have you ever been to Edmonton? When I drove across Canada in 1961
(it may be different today) it was evident from the radio stations that
we picked up that there was a great deal of French in northern Canada.
(By "northern" I don't mean the Arctic, but places north of the main
population centres). The French radio stations didn't fade away until
we were in British Columbia.
--
athel
Lewis
2017-10-09 16:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
Hmm. Have you ever been to Edmonton? When I drove across Canada in 1961
(it may be different today) it was evident from the radio stations that
we picked up that there was a great deal of French in northern Canada.
(By "northern" I don't mean the Arctic, but places north of the main
population centres). The French radio stations didn't fade away until
we were in British Columbia.
I am talking about British Columbia, where the only French we saw was in
the airport and on some packaging, which is exactly as much French as we
saw in Dallas. Or Orlando. Or San Francisco. Or Denver.
--
Words have meanings, but not here.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-09 17:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
Hmm. Have you ever been to Edmonton? When I drove across Canada in 1961
(it may be different today) it was evident from the radio stations that
we picked up that there was a great deal of French in northern Canada.
(By "northern" I don't mean the Arctic, but places north of the main
population centres). The French radio stations didn't fade away until
we were in British Columbia.
I am talking about British Columbia, where the only French we saw was in
the airport and on some packaging, which is exactly as much French as we
saw in Dallas. Or Orlando. Or San Francisco. Or Denver.
OK, but "Western Canada" is more than British Columbia. Even in British
Columbia I suspect you'd hear French on the radio if you went far
enough north, but Bill Van will know.
--
athel
b***@shaw.ca
2017-10-09 18:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
Hmm. Have you ever been to Edmonton? When I drove across Canada in 1961
(it may be different today) it was evident from the radio stations that
we picked up that there was a great deal of French in northern Canada.
(By "northern" I don't mean the Arctic, but places north of the main
population centres). The French radio stations didn't fade away until
we were in British Columbia.
I am talking about British Columbia, where the only French we saw was in
the airport and on some packaging, which is exactly as much French as we
saw in Dallas. Or Orlando. Or San Francisco. Or Denver.
OK, but "Western Canada" is more than British Columbia. Even in British
Columbia I suspect you'd hear French on the radio if you went far
enough north, but Bill Van will know.
See my reply to Lewis; there is definitely a French presence in B.C. As to radio stations, I can think of at least four that broadcast in French, two CBC stations and two private ones. The CBC stations are repeated throughout the province. There are also French-language TV stations available over the air and on cable TV, though they originate in Quebec. The French presence doesn't necessarily jump out at you, but it is recognized as part of the fabric of the country, including B.C.

bill
Ross
2017-10-09 23:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
Hmm. Have you ever been to Edmonton? When I drove across Canada in 1961
(it may be different today) it was evident from the radio stations that
we picked up that there was a great deal of French in northern Canada.
(By "northern" I don't mean the Arctic, but places north of the main
population centres). The French radio stations didn't fade away until
we were in British Columbia.
I am talking about British Columbia, where the only French we saw was in
the airport and on some packaging, which is exactly as much French as we
saw in Dallas. Or Orlando. Or San Francisco. Or Denver.
OK, but "Western Canada" is more than British Columbia. Even in British
Columbia I suspect you'd hear French on the radio if you went far
enough north, but Bill Van will know.
See my reply to Lewis; there is definitely a French presence in B.C. As to radio stations, I can think of at least four that broadcast in French, two CBC stations and two private ones. The CBC stations are repeated throughout the province. There are also French-language TV stations available over the air and on cable TV, though they originate in Quebec. The French presence doesn't necessarily jump out at you, but it is recognized as part of the fabric of the country, including B.C.
bill
All this has changed greatly since the Federal government decided to get
serious about national bilingualism in the 1960s. In my childhood there
was no French radio or TV. (Wiki says CBUF-FM was launched in 1967, first
Radio-Canada French-language station west of Ontario.) There was a small
community of French speakers at Maillardville (Coquitlam), founded by
sawmill workers recruited from Quebec ca.1900. Apart from that I don't
know of any Francophone communities in B.C., whereas they exist in all
the prairie provinces, though probably receding now.
Garrett Wollman
2017-10-10 03:36:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ross
All this has changed greatly since the Federal government decided to get
serious about national bilingualism in the 1960s. In my childhood there
was no French radio or TV. (Wiki says CBUF-FM was launched in 1967, first
Radio-Canada French-language station west of Ontario.)
That can't be right: CKSB is decades older. (Or maybe it wasn't a
Radio-Canada station at the time?)

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Ross
2017-10-10 04:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Ross
All this has changed greatly since the Federal government decided to get
serious about national bilingualism in the 1960s. In my childhood there
was no French radio or TV. (Wiki says CBUF-FM was launched in 1967, first
Radio-Canada French-language station west of Ontario.)
That can't be right: CKSB is decades older. (Or maybe it wasn't a
Radio-Canada station at the time?)
Indeed. Hence the qualified statement in Wiki. CKSB signed on in 1946 as
a commercial station.
"It was the first francophone station west of Ontario. It also aired
programming in Ukrainian, Polish, German, Portuguese, Hebrew and Italian."
Purchased by CBC/Radio-Canada in 1973.
b***@shaw.ca
2017-10-09 18:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
Hmm. Have you ever been to Edmonton? When I drove across Canada in 1961
(it may be different today) it was evident from the radio stations that
we picked up that there was a great deal of French in northern Canada.
(By "northern" I don't mean the Arctic, but places north of the main
population centres). The French radio stations didn't fade away until
we were in British Columbia.
I am talking about British Columbia, where the only French we saw was in
the airport and on some packaging, which is exactly as much French as we
saw in Dallas. Or Orlando. Or San Francisco. Or Denver.
There is a presence of French in British Columbia. I hear French spoken on the street quite regularly here in Vancouver, at least several times a week. I have three or four acquaintances whose first language is French. In late summer and fall, there is a strong presence of Quebec francophones employed in the fruit harvests in the Okanagan, in the southern interior of B.C. You might not notice the presence of French if you were visiting for a few days as a tourist, but if you spend more time here, you'll encounter it.

bill
Lewis
2017-10-10 00:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
Hmm. Have you ever been to Edmonton? When I drove across Canada in 1961
(it may be different today) it was evident from the radio stations that
we picked up that there was a great deal of French in northern Canada.
(By "northern" I don't mean the Arctic, but places north of the main
population centres). The French radio stations didn't fade away until
we were in British Columbia.
I am talking about British Columbia, where the only French we saw was in
the airport and on some packaging, which is exactly as much French as we
saw in Dallas. Or Orlando. Or San Francisco. Or Denver.
There is a presence of French in British Columbia. I hear French
spoken on the street quite regularly here in Vancouver, at least
several times a week.
I heard more Mandarin and or Korean than French. My son is in Kelowna
(UBCO) and off-campus hasn't heard any French at all, and on-campus it
is just one of several languages he hears on-campus, no more common than
the others.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
I have three or four acquaintances whose first language is French. In
late summer and fall, there is a strong presence of Quebec
francophones employed in the fruit harvests in the Okanagan, in the
southern interior of B.C. You might not notice the presence of French
if you were visiting for a few days as a tourist, but if you spend
more time here, you'll encounter it.
We've spent several weeks in BC on three occasions, so maybe a total of
2 months? We haven't been north though, but we've been in Vancouver,
Victoria, Kelowna, Harrison Hot Springs, and various other souther BC
areas.
--
Death was familiar with the concept of the eternal, ever-renewed hero,
the champion with a thousand faces. He'd refrained from commenting.
b***@shaw.ca
2017-10-10 03:29:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
Hmm. Have you ever been to Edmonton? When I drove across Canada in 1961
(it may be different today) it was evident from the radio stations that
we picked up that there was a great deal of French in northern Canada.
(By "northern" I don't mean the Arctic, but places north of the main
population centres). The French radio stations didn't fade away until
we were in British Columbia.
I am talking about British Columbia, where the only French we saw was in
the airport and on some packaging, which is exactly as much French as we
saw in Dallas. Or Orlando. Or San Francisco. Or Denver.
There is a presence of French in British Columbia. I hear French
spoken on the street quite regularly here in Vancouver, at least
several times a week.
I heard more Mandarin and or Korean than French. My son is in Kelowna
(UBCO) and off-campus hasn't heard any French at all, and on-campus it
is just one of several languages he hears on-campus, no more common than
the others.
Yes, me too. Well over a third of residents of Greater Vancouver have Asian origins or ancestors, probably in order of magnitude, Chinese, Indian (mainly Punjabi) and Korean. (An older Japanese population has not really grown since before WWII.) In the southwest suburban city of Richmond, more than half the population is Chinese. With all these plus European influences, Greater Vancouver is a great city for dining out.
Post by Lewis
Post by b***@shaw.ca
I have three or four acquaintances whose first language is French. In
late summer and fall, there is a strong presence of Quebec
francophones employed in the fruit harvests in the Okanagan, in the
southern interior of B.C. You might not notice the presence of French
if you were visiting for a few days as a tourist, but if you spend
more time here, you'll encounter it.
We've spent several weeks in BC on three occasions, so maybe a total of
2 months? We haven't been north though, but we've been in Vancouver,
Victoria, Kelowna, Harrison Hot Springs, and various other souther BC
areas.
I wasn't trying to say that French speakers are a large part of the community, but rather that there remains a presence that you notice if you live here.

bill
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-10 12:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Yes, me too. Well over a third of residents of Greater Vancouver have Asian origins or ancestors, probably in order of magnitude, Chinese, Indian (mainly Punjabi) and Korean. (An older Japanese population has not really grown since before WWII.) In the southwest suburban city of Richmond, more than half the population is Chinese. With all these plus European influences, Greater Vancouver is a great city for dining out.
Chinese, or Hong Kongese? I was in Vancouver in '75 and '94. The immense difference over those
20 years was ascribed to a building boom caused by wealthy Hong Kong residents getting out
while they still could.
Quinn C
2017-10-10 13:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Lewis
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it
meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one
would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education or
of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of usage,
you have little experience being around a rather large section of the
population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
Hmm. Have you ever been to Edmonton? When I drove across Canada in 1961
(it may be different today) it was evident from the radio stations that
we picked up that there was a great deal of French in northern Canada.
(By "northern" I don't mean the Arctic, but places north of the main
population centres). The French radio stations didn't fade away until
we were in British Columbia.
I am talking about British Columbia, where the only French we saw was in
the airport and on some packaging, which is exactly as much French as we
saw in Dallas. Or Orlando. Or San Francisco. Or Denver.
There is a presence of French in British Columbia. I hear French
spoken on the street quite regularly here in Vancouver, at least
several times a week.
I heard more Mandarin and or Korean than French. My son is in Kelowna
(UBCO) and off-campus hasn't heard any French at all, and on-campus it
is just one of several languages he hears on-campus, no more common than
the others.
Yes, me too. Well over a third of residents of Greater Vancouver have Asian origins or ancestors, probably in order of magnitude, Chinese, Indian (mainly Punjabi) and Korean. (An older Japanese population has not really grown since before WWII.) In the southwest suburban city of Richmond, more than half the population is Chinese. With all these plus European influences, Greater Vancouver is a great city for dining out.
Post by Lewis
Post by b***@shaw.ca
I have three or four acquaintances whose first language is French. In
late summer and fall, there is a strong presence of Quebec
francophones employed in the fruit harvests in the Okanagan, in the
southern interior of B.C. You might not notice the presence of French
if you were visiting for a few days as a tourist, but if you spend
more time here, you'll encounter it.
We've spent several weeks in BC on three occasions, so maybe a total of
2 months? We haven't been north though, but we've been in Vancouver,
Victoria, Kelowna, Harrison Hot Springs, and various other souther BC
areas.
I wasn't trying to say that French speakers are a large part of
the community, but rather that there remains a presence that
you notice if you live here.
I regularly hear German spoken on the streets and subways of
Montreal, and Russian practically daily. Still, those communities
aren't part of the fabric of mainstream culture. My question
therefore would be whether French in B.C. has a greater presence -
in quantity or in quality - than that of some random European
immigrant community.
--
Novels and romances ... when habitually indulged in, exert a
disastrous influence on the nervous system, sufficient to explain
that frequency of hysteria and nervous disease which we find
among the highest classes. -- E.J. Tilt
CDB
2017-10-09 12:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as
"Spanish" it meant they came from Spain, and if they came
from another Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or
Chile or Mexico, one would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though.
"I couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's
Spanish." could be heard around here even though it's
extremely unlikely that someone from Spain would be working
here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French",
both of which default in ambiguous cases to indications of
preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian"
you meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto) or mix with people with less education
or of lower social status. If you don't "recognize" this type of
usage, you have little experience being around a rather large
section of the population.
In Western Canada there's about as much French as there is in ...
Dallas.
Not as true as it might seem. The French there (often Métis) are all
bilingual, and speak French only to each other.

Don't know about Dallas, though.
Mark Brader
2017-10-09 03:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto)
Correct.
Post by Tony Cooper
or mix with people with less education or of lower social status.
Probably close to correct. Perhaps more to the point, I haven't had
conversations about whether people are French- or English-speaking
with a lot of people, whether in department stores or anywhere else.
It's not a common topic here, where relatively few people speak French.
Post by Tony Cooper
If you don't "recognize" this type of usage, you have little
experience being around a rather large section of the population.
But here I think you've overreaching, based on the usages of the
corresponding section of the population where you are. Or have you
mixed with a large section of the Canadian population who have less
education or are of lower social status.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "... pure English is de rigueur"
***@vex.net -- Guardian Weekly

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Tony Cooper
2017-10-09 04:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto)
Correct.
Post by Tony Cooper
or mix with people with less education or of lower social status.
Probably close to correct. Perhaps more to the point, I haven't had
conversations about whether people are French- or English-speaking
with a lot of people, whether in department stores or anywhere else.
It's not a common topic here, where relatively few people speak French.
Post by Tony Cooper
If you don't "recognize" this type of usage, you have little
experience being around a rather large section of the population.
But here I think you've overreaching, based on the usages of the
corresponding section of the population where you are. Or have you
mixed with a large section of the Canadian population who have less
education or are of lower social status.
While I have interacted with the odd Canadian, I don't need to have
mixed with Canadians to recognize the usage. You did not say you
don't recognize the usage *by Canadians*; you said you don't recognize
it.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
2017-10-09 04:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by CDB
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage...
If you don't "recognize" this type of usage, you have little
experience being around a rather large section of the population.
But here I think you've overreaching, based on the usages of the
corresponding section of the population where you are. Or have you
mixed with a large section of the Canadian population who have less
education or are of lower social status.
While I have interacted with the odd Canadian, I don't need to have
mixed with Canadians to recognize the usage. You did not say you
don't recognize the usage *by Canadians*; you said you don't recognize
it.
I was responding specifically to C.D.'s statement about Canadian usage,
and indeed, about the "default" meaning in Canadian usage.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | Some people like my advice so much that they frame it
***@vex.net | upon the wall instead of using it. --Gordon R. Dickson

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Tony Cooper
2017-10-09 04:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by CDB
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage...
If you don't "recognize" this type of usage, you have little
experience being around a rather large section of the population.
But here I think you've overreaching, based on the usages of the
corresponding section of the population where you are. Or have you
mixed with a large section of the Canadian population who have less
education or are of lower social status.
While I have interacted with the odd Canadian, I don't need to have
mixed with Canadians to recognize the usage. You did not say you
don't recognize the usage *by Canadians*; you said you don't recognize
it.
I was responding specifically to C.D.'s statement about Canadian usage,
and indeed, about the "default" meaning in Canadian usage.
When you first posted that you don't recognize the usage, in that post
my comments were included and your response seemed to include both my
comment and Bellemare's.

In this post, you've snipped my comment and made it appear as if you
were responding only to Bellemare. Retroactive removal of ambiguity.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
2017-10-09 08:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
In this post, you've snipped my comment and made it appear as if you
were responding only to Bellemare. Retroactive removal of ambiguity.
Yes, because I was. Apologies if you found it misleading.
--
Mark Brader "If you design for compatibility with a
Toronto donkey cart, what you get is a donkey cart."
***@vex.net -- ?, quoted by Henry Spencer
Quinn C
2017-10-10 13:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish." could
be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely that someone
from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both of
which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Sometimes, Mark, I think you've never been to a Wal-Mart (or
comparable store in Toronto)
Correct.
Post by Tony Cooper
or mix with people with less education or of lower social status.
Probably close to correct. Perhaps more to the point, I haven't had
conversations about whether people are French- or English-speaking
with a lot of people, whether in department stores or anywhere else.
It's not a common topic here, where relatively few people speak French.
Well, than your experience doesn't add much to the question how
the difference is expressed when it is expressed.

I'm going to back up Tony in the matter - in Quebec, the educated
usage is to say "anglophone" and "francophone" (as you may have
noticed me doing regularly in this group), but people who care
less talk about "the English" and "the French" as well.
--
Democracy means government by the uneducated,
while aristocracy means government by the badly educated.
-- G. K. Chesterton
CDB
2017-10-09 12:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish"
it meant they came from Spain, and if they came from another
Spanish-speaking country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico,
one would call them "Hispanic".
Likewise.
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
Normally, you'd be correct. Not everyone does it, though. "I
couldn't understand what the clerk was saying. She's Spanish."
could be heard around here even though it's extremely unlikely
that someone from Spain would be working here.
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both
of which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred
language.
I do not recognize or accept this usage. Perhaps by "Canadian" you
meant to refer to Quebec and vicinity.
Farther than that, IME. I accept your word that it isn't heard in your
Toronto neighbourhood, of course.
ErrolC
2017-10-09 08:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, 9 October 2017 07:07:54 UTC+13, CDB wrote:
<snip>
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both > of which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred
language.
If national origin is meant, people often say "British/anglais de
l'Angleterre" and "French French/francais de la France".
In NZ you occasionally hear 'Indian Indian', to differentiate from Fijian Indian (or other countries such as South Africa).

--
Errol Cavit
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-10-09 11:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ErrolC
<snip>
That parallels the Canadian usage of "English" and "French", both > of which default in ambiguous cases to indications of preferred
language.
If national origin is meant, people often say "British/anglais de
l'Angleterre" and "French French/francais de la France".
In NZ you occasionally hear 'Indian Indian', to differentiate from Fijian Indian (or other countries such as South Africa).
Would someone in the USA from, or with ancestors from, India be an
"American Indian Indian"?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ken Blake
2017-10-08 16:27:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-10-08 16:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-08 17:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
I don't use "Hispanic" at all; I say "Latin American".
--
athel
Garrett Wollman
2017-10-08 17:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't use "Hispanic" at all; I say "Latin American".
For people whose families have lived in the United States for 150
years?

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-09 11:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't use "Hispanic" at all; I say "Latin American".
For people whose families have lived in the United States for 150
years?
No of course not. For people who regard themselves as Latin American.
--
athel
Garrett Wollman
2017-10-09 15:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't use "Hispanic" at all; I say "Latin American".
For people whose families have lived in the United States for 150
years?
No of course not. For people who regard themselves as Latin American.
Then you're clearly talking about something else.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-09 16:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't use "Hispanic" at all; I say "Latin American".
For people whose families have lived in the United States for 150
years?
No of course not. For people who regard themselves as Latin American.
Then you're clearly talking about something else.
Could be, but to answer I'd need to know what your talking about,which
is evident from what you've quoted.
--
athel
Garrett Wollman
2017-10-09 16:54:25 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't use "Hispanic" at all; I say "Latin American".
For people whose families have lived in the United States for 150
years?
No of course not. For people who regard themselves as Latin American.
Then you're clearly talking about something else.
Could be, but to answer I'd need to know what your talking about,which
is evident from what you've quoted.
The set of people commonly described as "Hispanic".

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-09 17:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't use "Hispanic" at all; I say "Latin American".
For people whose families have lived in the United States for 150
years?
No of course not. For people who regard themselves as Latin American.
Then you're clearly talking about something else.
Could be, but to answer I'd need to know what your talking about,which
is evident from what you've quoted.
The set of people commonly described as "Hispanic".
The term "Hispanic" is particular to the USA, so they're not "commonly
described as 'Hispanic'" elsewhere, where insofar as it's used at all
it's just another word for people with a linguistic or cultural
association with Spain. So no, I wasn't talking about what you were
talking about, as it was of little or no interest.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-09 17:30:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
--
athel
charles
2017-10-08 17:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
I don't use "Hispanic" at all; I say "Latin American".
but that implies speaking Latin, surely?
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-09 11:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by charles
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
I don't use "Hispanic" at all; I say "Latin American".
but that implies speaking Latin, surely?
Yes. But French, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Italian, Roumanian etc.
are forms of Latin spoken today.
--
athel
Ken Blake
2017-10-09 18:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 13:40:46 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by charles
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
I don't use "Hispanic" at all; I say "Latin American".
but that implies speaking Latin, surely?
Yes. But French, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Italian, Roumanian etc.
are forms of Latin spoken today.
I would have though that was a pretty complete list of Romance
languages until I looked at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages , and saw this list:

Lexical and grammatical similarities among the Romance languages, and
between Latin and each of them, are apparent from the following
examples having the same meaning in various Romance lects:

English: She always closes the window before she dines / before
dining.

Latin (Ea) semper antequam cenat fenestram claudit.
Vulgar Latin (Ea) claudi[t] semper illa fenestra antequam
de cenare
Apulian (Jèdde) akjude sèmbe la fenèstre prime de mangè.
Aragonese (Ella) zarra siempre a finestra antes de cenar.
Aromanian (Ea/Nâsa) ãncljidi/nkidi totna firida/fireastra ninti
di tsinã.
Asturian (Ella) pieslla siempres la ventana enantes de cenar.
Bolognese (Lî) la sèra sänper la fnèstra prémma ed dsnèr.
Catalan (Ella) sempre tanca/clou la finestra abans de sopar.
Northern Corsican Ella chjode/chjude sempre u purtellu nanzu di
cenà.
Southern Corsican Edda/Idda sarra sempri u purteddu nanzu/prima
di cinà.
Emilian (Le) la sèra sèmpar sù la fnèstra prima ad snàr.
Extremaduran (Ella) afecha siempri la ventana antis de
cenal.
Franco-Provençal (Le) sarre toltin/tojor la fenétra avan de
goutâ/dinar/sopar.
French Elle ferme toujours la fenêtre avant de dîner/souper.
Friulian (Jê) e siere simpri il barcon prin di cenâ.
Galician (Ela) pecha/fecha sempre a fiestra/xanela antes de
cear.
Gallurese Idda chjude sempri lu balconi primma di cinà.
Italian (Ella/Lei) chiude sempre la finestra prima di cenare.
Judaeo-Spanish .?????? ?????? ????????? ?? ????????? ??????
??? ???????; Ella cerra siempre la ventana antes de cenar.
Ladin (Ëra) stlüj dagnora la finestra impröma de cenè.
(badiot) (Ëila) stluj for l viere dan maië da cëina. (gherdëina)

Centro Cadore: La sera sempre la fenestra gnante de disna. Auronzo
di Cadore: La sera sempro la fenestra davoi de disnà.
Leonese (Eilla) pecha siempre la ventana primeiru de cenare.
Ligurian (Le) a saera sempre u barcun primma de cenà.
Lombard (east.)
(Bergamasque) (Lé) la sèra sèmper sö la finèstra prima de
senà.
Lombard (west.) (Lee) la sara sù semper la finestra primma de
disnà/scenà.
Magoua (Elle) à fàrm toujour là fnèt àvan k'à manj.
Milanese (Le) la sara semper sü la finestra prima de disnà.
Mirandese (Eilha) cerra siempre la bentana/jinela atrás de
jantar.
Mozarabic ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ?? ?????.
(reconstructed)
Mozarabic Ella cloudet sempre la fainestra abante da cenare.
(reconstructed)
Neapolitan Essa 'nzerra sempe 'a fenesta primma 'e cenà.
Norman Lli barre tréjous la crouésie devaunt de daîner.
Occitan (Ela) barra/tanca sempre/totjorn la fenèstra abans de
sopar.
Picard Ale frunme tojours l’ creusèe édvint éd souper.
Piedmontese Chila a sara sèmper la fnestra dnans ëd fé
sin-a/dnans ëd siné.
Portuguese (Ela) fecha sempre a janela antes de jantar.
Romagnol (Lia) la ciud sëmpra la fnèstra prëma ad magnè.
Romanian Ea închide întotdeauna fereastra înainte de a cina.
Romansh Ella clauda/serra adina la fanestra avant ch'ella
tschainia.
Southern Sardinian Issa serrat semp(i)ri sa bentana in antis de
cenai
Northern Sardinian Issa serrat semper sa bentana in antis de
chenàre.
Sassarese Edda sarra sempri lu balchoni primma di zinà.
Sicilian I??a chiui sempri la fines??a anti ca pistìa/mancia.
Spanish (Ella) siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar.
Tuscan Lei serra sempre la finestra avanti cena.
Umbrian Essa chjude sempre la finestra prima de cena'.
Venetian Ela la sara/sera sempre la fenestra vanti de
xenàr/disnar.
Walloon Ele sere todi li finiesse divant di soper.

Romance-based creoles and pidgins

Haitian Creole Li toujou' fèmen fenêt'-la avant li manger.
Mauritian Creole Li touzour pou ferm lafnet la avan (li) manze.
Seychellois Creole Y pou touzour ferm lafnet aven y manze.
Chavacano Ta cerrá él con el puerta antes de cená.
Papiamento E muhe closes e porta promé na dine.
Cape Verdean Creole Êl fechâ porta antes de jantâ.


Ken
Ken Blake
2017-10-08 18:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-08 20:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
Haven't you said you're a New Yorker? Statistically, then, he would far more likely be Caribbean,
second more likely Central American.
Ken Blake
2017-10-08 21:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 13:46:39 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
Haven't you said you're a New Yorker?
No. I was, but I haven't lived there for the past 25 years.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Statistically, then, he would far more likely be Caribbean,
Yes, especially Puerto Rican in NYC.

But the question was "...knew he was Spanish-speaking from somewhere
in *South America*..."

If I were in NYC, and didn't know he was from somewhere in South
America, I'd probably guess and say "Puerto Rican." No guarantee I'd
be right, but a high probability that I would be.

Just like if were in Arizona, where I now live, and didn't know he was
from somewhere in South America, I'd probably guess and say "Mexican."
No guarantee I'd be right there either, but also a high probability
that I would be.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-09 04:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 13:46:39 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
Haven't you said you're a New Yorker?
No. I was, but I haven't lived there for the past 25 years.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Statistically, then, he would far more likely be Caribbean,
Yes, especially Puerto Rican in NYC.
Ah, you have been away for a while. Nowadays, far more likely Dominican (DR,
not Dominica). Persons of Puerto Rican heritage are more likely to have been
here for several generations and English-monolingual (unfortunately), but with
an ethnically distinctive register known as "Nuyorican." I think Lin-Manuel
Miranda used it a lot in his first hit musical, *In the Heights*.
Post by Ken Blake
But the question was "...knew he was Spanish-speaking from somewhere
in *South America*..."
If I were in NYC, and didn't know he was from somewhere in South
America, I'd probably guess and say "Puerto Rican." No guarantee I'd
be right, but a high probability that I would be.
Just like if were in Arizona, where I now live, and didn't know he was
from somewhere in South America, I'd probably guess and say "Mexican."
No guarantee I'd be right there either, but also a high probability
that I would be.
Chicago had about equal numbers of Mexicans and Puerto Ricans, and many of the
Mexicans were from farther south -- uncannily resembling the flat-foreheaded
images of Mayan art. I knew a guy who was perfectly trilingual, because his
mother spoke nothing but Nahuatl and maybe a smattering of Spanish.

The infamous "earmuffs" congressional district was drawn to ensure at least one
Hispanic congressman from Chicago, because the Mexican or Puerto Rican community
alone wouldn't have enough people for a representative of their own, and they
definitely didn't/don't mix. Luis Gutierrez, formerly an alderman (city council
person), has held the seat since it was created after IIRC the 1990 census.
Lewis
2017-10-09 01:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
People from Mexico, the Caribbean, and all of Central America will find
that objectionable, along with all the "Mexicans" who have been in the
USA for longer than there's been a USA.
--
a vital ingredient of success is not knowing that what you're attempting
can't be done. A person ignorant of the possibility of failure can be a
half-brick in the path of the bicycle of history.
Paul Wolff
2017-10-09 09:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
People from Mexico, the Caribbean, and all of Central America will find
that objectionable, along with all the "Mexicans" who have been in the
USA for longer than there's been a USA.
I can't take that in. It seems that a cultural road-block exists here.

Can Lewis explain what makes people from outside South America
(specifically, Central America and the Caribbean and the United States)
take offence when a Spanish-speaking person who is from South America is
called "South American" by an English speaker?
--
Paul
Lewis
2017-10-09 16:47:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
People from Mexico, the Caribbean, and all of Central America will find
that objectionable, along with all the "Mexicans" who have been in the
USA for longer than there's been a USA.
I can't take that in. It seems that a cultural road-block exists here.
Can Lewis explain what makes people from outside South America
(specifically, Central America and the Caribbean and the United States)
take offence when a Spanish-speaking person who is from South America is
called "South American" by an English speaker?
Are you suggesting you can know that someone is from Argentina or
Columbia instead of Mexico or Costa Rica?
--
Nothing is impossible for those who don't have to do it.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-10-09 21:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Are you suggesting you can know that someone is from Argentina or
Columbia instead of Mexico or Costa Rica?
Of course. American Spanish is extremely varied.
Ken Blake
2017-10-10 00:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:22:32 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
Are you suggesting you can know that someone is from Argentina or
Columbia instead of Mexico or Costa Rica?
Of course. American Spanish is extremely varied.
Yes. I can't compare all those variations, but I can say that I spent
several days in Argentina a few years ago, and was greatly surprised
to hear the "ll" pronounced "zh." So a word like "calle" (street) is
pronounced cazhay.
Paul Wolff
2017-10-09 21:36:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lewis
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
People from Mexico, the Caribbean, and all of Central America will find
that objectionable, along with all the "Mexicans" who have been in the
USA for longer than there's been a USA.
I can't take that in. It seems that a cultural road-block exists here.
Can Lewis explain what makes people from outside South America
(specifically, Central America and the Caribbean and the United States)
take offence when a Spanish-speaking person who is from South America is
called "South American" by an English speaker?
Are you suggesting you can know that someone is from Argentina or
Columbia instead of Mexico or Costa Rica?
What a strange thing to say. Is this supposed to be your explanation?
But if it's a genuine enquiry, the answer is yes, if I have been given
that information in advance (such as, my wife's cousins were born in
Colombia); otherwise, I have no way of knowing.

Now can you answer my own question? What triggers their taking offence,
and why should it? "South American? Aargh! Bloody Ingleses again!"
--
Paul
Lewis
2017-10-10 00:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Lewis
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
People from Mexico, the Caribbean, and all of Central America will find
that objectionable, along with all the "Mexicans" who have been in the
USA for longer than there's been a USA.
I can't take that in. It seems that a cultural road-block exists here.
Can Lewis explain what makes people from outside South America
(specifically, Central America and the Caribbean and the United States)
take offence when a Spanish-speaking person who is from South America is
called "South American" by an English speaker?
Are you suggesting you can know that someone is from Argentina or
Columbia instead of Mexico or Costa Rica?
What a strange thing to say. Is this supposed to be your explanation?
But if it's a genuine enquiry, the answer is yes, if I have been given
that information in advance (such as, my wife's cousins were born in
Colombia); otherwise, I have no way of knowing.
That topic has been about Spanish speakers in general. I did not notice
that it was being narrowed to people from SA countries.
--
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are
stupider than that.
Ken Blake
2017-10-09 19:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 01:11:03 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
People from Mexico, the Caribbean, and all of Central America will find
that objectionable, along with all the "Mexicans" who have been in the
USA for longer than there's been a USA.
Please note that, as I said in an earlier message in this thread, that
I was responding to a question about someone who was
"...Spanish-speaking from somewhere in South America..."
Paul Wolff
2017-10-09 21:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 01:11:03 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 17:37:36 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Would you use "Hispanic" if you knew he was Spanish-speaking from
somewhere in South America but not knowing which country?
Probably not. I'd more likely say "South American."
People from Mexico, the Caribbean, and all of Central America will find
that objectionable, along with all the "Mexicans" who have been in the
USA for longer than there's been a USA.
Please note that, as I said in an earlier message in this thread, that
I was responding to a question about someone who was
"...Spanish-speaking from somewhere in South America..."
Lewis writes that to call such a person "South American" would be
objected to by Central Americans and Caribbeans and some North
Americans, as you can see. I asked for an explanation, but none has been
forthcoming. I'm beginning to think that he wrote without thinking, a
heinous crime in a.u.e; but perhaps he has a defence to the accusation.
--
Paul
Tony Cooper
2017-10-08 18:09:33 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Sure, if you know they are an Argentine, Chilean, or Mexican. Usually,
when someone refers to a Hispanic they are not at all sure where that
person is from.

Driving by some neighborhoods where they are cleaning up Hurricane
Irma damage, there are crews of workers visible. Many appear to be
Hispanic, but I certainly wouldn't want to attempt to be more
specific.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-10-09 11:57:56 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:55:29 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
I've always assumed that if a person was described as "Spanish" it meant
they came from Spain,
If I were the person speaking, yes, that's what it would mean.
Post by Steve Hayes
and if they came from another Spanish-speaking
country, like Argentina or Chile or Mexico, one would call them
"Hispanic".
But I never do that. I would call him "Argentine," Chilean," or
"Mexican."
Sure, if you know they are an Argentine, Chilean, or Mexican. Usually,
when someone refers to a Hispanic they are not at all sure where that
person is from.
Driving by some neighborhoods where they are cleaning up Hurricane
Irma damage, there are crews of workers visible. Many appear to be
Hispanic, but I certainly wouldn't want to attempt to be more
specific.
Things are always more complicated than one might wish, and don't admit
of precise unambiguous dividing lines. Take Haiti, example: Latin
Americans of my acquaintance consider Haiti (along with Cuba and the
Dominican Republic) to be part of Latin America, but they don't usually
regard Haitians as Latin American. They don't have hurricanes in Chile,
but if they did a substantial proportion of the people clearing up the
mess would be Haitian. The Guianas are in South America, but most South
Americans are barely aware of their existence, and certainly don't
regard them as part of Latin America.
--
athel
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