Discussion:
Kyiv
(too old to reply)
HVS
2019-10-08 17:44:15 UTC
Permalink
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)

I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.

Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30 yrs) and BrEng (36 yrs),
indiscriminately mixed
Garrett Wollman
2019-10-08 17:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)
The timezone mailing-list (which has been shockingly quiet lately) has
had regular complaints about this over the years. The answer has
always been "we use the English spelling, and that is determined by
looking at usage, not what some government agency says.

The Guardian and Observer style guide uses the Ukrainian spelling.
Post by HVS
I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
Various Western government agencies have adopted the new spelling in
their public communications, especially foreign ministries, so it's
not surprising to see it work its way from there into diplomatic
reporting and then into the press. Since most native English speakers
have little need to talk about Ukraine outside of a news context, it
seems likely that the new spelling will eventually predominate.

Neither spelling is a particularly accurate reflection of the
*pronunciation* of the Ukrainian name.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Paul Carmichael
2019-10-08 18:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Since most native English speakers
have little need to talk about Ukraine outside of a news context, it
seems likely that the new spelling will eventually predominate.
One of my all time favourite foods. People used to call it Kevin anyway, so not sure
there'll be much change.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-10-08 22:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by HVS
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)
The timezone mailing-list (which has been shockingly quiet lately) has
had regular complaints about this over the years. The answer has
always been "we use the English spelling, and that is determined by
looking at usage, not what some government agency says.
The Guardian and Observer style guide uses the Ukrainian spelling.
Post by HVS
I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
Various Western government agencies have adopted the new spelling in
their public communications, especially foreign ministries, so it's
not surprising to see it work its way from there into diplomatic
reporting and then into the press. Since most native English speakers
have little need to talk about Ukraine outside of a news context, it
seems likely that the new spelling will eventually predominate.
But probably not in the food item "Chicken Kiev".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Kiev
Post by Garrett Wollman
Neither spelling is a particularly accurate reflection of the
*pronunciation* of the Ukrainian name.
-GAWollman
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
David Kleinecke
2019-10-08 23:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by HVS
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)
The timezone mailing-list (which has been shockingly quiet lately) has
had regular complaints about this over the years. The answer has
always been "we use the English spelling, and that is determined by
looking at usage, not what some government agency says.
The Guardian and Observer style guide uses the Ukrainian spelling.
Post by HVS
I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
Various Western government agencies have adopted the new spelling in
their public communications, especially foreign ministries, so it's
not surprising to see it work its way from there into diplomatic
reporting and then into the press. Since most native English speakers
have little need to talk about Ukraine outside of a news context, it
seems likely that the new spelling will eventually predominate.
But probably not in the food item "Chicken Kiev".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Kiev
Post by Garrett Wollman
Neither spelling is a particularly accurate reflection of the
*pronunciation* of the Ukrainian name.
-GAWollman
I would expect the Danish kings' name Vladimir to reflect the
Russian of Kyiv rather than elsewhere (Novograd?) Does it?
Peter Moylan
2019-10-08 23:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by HVS
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)
The timezone mailing-list (which has been shockingly quiet lately) has
had regular complaints about this over the years. The answer has
always been "we use the English spelling, and that is determined by
looking at usage, not what some government agency says.
The Guardian and Observer style guide uses the Ukrainian spelling.
Post by HVS
I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
Various Western government agencies have adopted the new spelling in
their public communications, especially foreign ministries, so it's
not surprising to see it work its way from there into diplomatic
reporting and then into the press. Since most native English speakers
have little need to talk about Ukraine outside of a news context, it
seems likely that the new spelling will eventually predominate.
But probably not in the food item "Chicken Kiev".
Which, among English speakers, probably accounts for over 99% of the use
of the word.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
RH Draney
2019-10-09 07:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by HVS
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)
The timezone mailing-list (which has been shockingly quiet lately) has
had regular complaints about this over the years. The answer has
always been "we use the English spelling, and that is determined by
looking at usage, not what some government agency says.
The Guardian and Observer style guide uses the Ukrainian spelling.
Post by HVS
I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
Various Western government agencies have adopted the new spelling in
their public communications, especially foreign ministries, so it's
not surprising to see it work its way from there into diplomatic
reporting and then into the press. Since most native English speakers
have little need to talk about Ukraine outside of a news context, it
seems likely that the new spelling will eventually predominate.
But probably not in the food item "Chicken Kiev".
Which joins "Burma Shave" and "siamese cat" as old names that remain the
same despite the name of the underlying place being changed in all the
official records....

Still waiting for the edict that says we have to say "Bharat ink"....r
Paul Carmichael
2019-10-09 09:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Which joins "Burma Shave" and "siamese cat" as old names that remain the same despite the
name of the underlying place being changed in all the official records....
Don't forget Bombay Mix.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
occam
2019-10-09 13:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by RH Draney
Which joins "Burma Shave" and "siamese cat" as old names that remain
the same despite the name of the underlying place being changed in all
the official records....
Don't forget Bombay Mix.
Oh Calcutta!
Ken Blake
2019-10-09 15:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by RH Draney
Which joins "Burma Shave" and "siamese cat" as old names that remain
the same despite the name of the underlying place being changed in all
the official records....
Don't forget Bombay Mix.
Oh Calcutta!
O quel cul t'as,
b***@aol.com
2019-10-09 16:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by occam
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by RH Draney
Which joins "Burma Shave" and "siamese cat" as old names that remain
the same despite the name of the underlying place being changed in all
the official records....
Don't forget Bombay Mix.
Oh Calcutta!
O quel cul t'as,
Il est bien Bombay !

Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-09 14:02:31 UTC
Permalink
[ ... ]
Still waiting for the edict that says we have to say "Bharat ink"....r
You can wait while sitting on your turkish, wearing an Ecuador hat,
stroking your Iranian cat and admiring your nihonned furniture.
--
athel
Paul Carmichael
2019-10-09 09:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
But probably not in the food item "Chicken Kiev".
See above ^
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-09 10:43:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
But probably not in the food item "Chicken Kiev".
See above ^
There is a Ukrainian in our group, and I asked him a few minutes ago
how to pronounce Kyïv. The way he said it sounded (to English ears)
much like [kɪjɪv]. He said that the difference with how Kiev is
pronounced in Russian is quite subtle, and, indeed, when he said it it
sounded much like the way he said Kyïv. I think the usual English
pronunciation of Kiev puts a lot of stress on the e, but he didn't.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-08 18:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)
I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
It's political, of course. Note how the president's first name is spelled
-- Volodimir. There are two letters in the Ukrainian alphabet that aren't
in the Russian alphabet, too.
Quinn C
2019-10-08 22:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)
I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
It's political, of course. Note how the president's first name is spelled
-- Volodimir.
Volodymyr, actually.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
There are two letters in the Ukrainian alphabet that aren't
in the Russian alphabet, too.
One of them being the i in Kyiv.
--
... English-speaking people have managed to get along a good many
centuries with the present supply of pronouns; ... It is so old and
venerable an argument ... it's equivalent was used when gas, railways
and steamboats were proposed. -- Findlay (OH) Jeffersonian (1875)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-08 18:58:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)
I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
Wickedpedia has the older style:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-10-08 20:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)
I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
"Kyiv" is the spelling we were told to use when we lived there in
2007-09, and it was the spelling used in the primary (only?)
English-language newspaper published there (Kyiv Post, apparently;
I had forgotten).
I'm not sure I would have noticed the odd appearance of "Kiev"
as that is what I was brought up with, also in Danish.

It is the transliteration of the Ukrainian "Київ", where 'ї' is a
Ukrainian letter (one of three, IIRC), not used in Russian.

/Anders, Denmark.
Cheryl
2019-10-08 21:36:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
A quick Google informs me that the spelling of the Ukraianian capital
was officially changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in 1995. (The former is a
transliteration of the Russian spelling, while the latter is apparently
the preferred Latinisation from Ukrainian.)
I've got no problem with this, but it's only during the current
fooferah about Trump's call that I've noticed the "Kyiv" spelling.
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and I've
just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news outlets?
I don't think it's been widely used, but it has been used. I came across
it a few years when I attended a concert by groups from Ukraine, but I
think I saw it sometimes before that.

(A relative asked me if it was a political group. I said it was a
fund-raising activity in support of Ukraine with the organizers
commenting about who was responsible for the suffering of the people
there. Yes, it was somewhat political. And so, I suspect, they used the
newer spelling "Kyiv".)
--
Cheryl
HVS
2019-10-09 10:42:43 UTC
Permalink
On 08 Oct 2019, HVS wrote

-snip-
Post by HVS
Has "Kyiv" been widely used over the past quarter of a century and
I've just not noticed, or is it only now being adopted by news
outlets?
Thanks to all; this has put it into context for me.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30 yrs) and BrEng (36 yrs),
indiscriminately mixed
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