Discussion:
High falutin' vs trashy (class warfare terms)
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bruce bowser
2021-03-26 10:21:33 UTC
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What exactly makes a person high falutin' or trashy regarding socio economic status?
occam
2021-03-26 11:33:20 UTC
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Post by bruce bowser
What exactly makes a person high falutin' or trashy regarding socio economic status?
Is that you bozo, or is 'bruce browser' your long lost twin. Good match!
bruce bowser
2021-03-26 15:04:16 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by bruce bowser
What exactly makes a person high falutin' or trashy regarding socio economic status?
Is that you bozo, or is 'bruce browser' your long lost twin. Good match!
Are you looking in the mirror? Again?
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-26 23:10:06 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by bruce bowser
What exactly makes a person high falutin' or trashy regarding socio economic status?
Is that you bozo, or is 'bruce browser' your long lost twin. Good match!
Dunno, but that name (or a close variant) entered my troll killfile
quite some time back.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Ross Clark
2021-03-26 23:20:19 UTC
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Post by bruce bowser
What exactly makes a person high falutin' or trashy regarding socio economic status?
Can't help you there, son, but "high falutin'" shore do put me in mind
of "new-fangled". I would've put it in the same etymological basket
(American, early 19th century).
So what's this in this morning's reading: "Roberte Coplande boke prynter
to new fanglers", dating from the early 1500s?
Not a new word at all, even then, it seems. The first OED citations:

?a1300 (▸c1250) Prov. Hendyng (Digby) xxxv, in Anglia (1881) 4 197
(MED) If þi loverd is neufangel, Ne be þou nout forþi outgangel Mid
illore iwon.

▸ a1393 J. Gower Confessio Amantis (Fairf.) v. 4367 (MED) Every
newe love quemeth To him which newefongel is.

▸ c1395 G. Chaucer Squire's Tale 618 So newefangel [v.r. newe
faggil] been they of hir mete And louen nouelries of propre kynde.

This is "newfangle" (adj) 'fond of novelty or new things', the earliest
form. (The etymology of the -fangle is obscure.) But by about 1500
people are adding a -d to it, and this becomes the most popular version.
They are also extracting "fangle" to use as a noun meaning a fashion or
novelty (1548). Coplande's "(new)fangler(s)" seems an obvious further
step, but may have had no posterity, as OED shows no citations of it.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-27 16:17:06 UTC
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Post by Ross Clark
Post by bruce bowser
What exactly makes a person high falutin' or trashy regarding socio economic status?
Can't help you there, son, but "high falutin'" shore do put me in mind
of "new-fangled". I would've put it in the same etymological basket
(American, early 19th century).
So what's this in this morning's reading: "Roberte Coplande boke prynter
to new fanglers", dating from the early 1500s?
?a1300  (▸c1250)    Prov. Hendyng (Digby) xxxv, in Anglia (1881) 4 197
(MED)   If þi loverd is neufangel, Ne be þou nout forþi outgangel Mid
illore iwon.
 ▸ a1393   J. Gower Confessio Amantis (Fairf.) v. 4367 (MED)   Every
newe love quemeth To him which newefongel is.
 ▸ c1395   G. Chaucer Squire's Tale 618   So newefangel [v.r. newe
faggil] been they of hir mete And louen nouelries of propre kynde.
This is "newfangle" (adj) 'fond of novelty or new things', the earliest
form. (The etymology of the -fangle is obscure.) But by about 1500
people are adding a -d to it, and this becomes the most popular version.
They are also extracting "fangle" to use as a noun meaning a fashion or
novelty (1548). Coplande's "(new)fangler(s)" seems an obvious further
step, but may have had no posterity, as OED shows no citations of it.
There's also Wyatt's

And I have leve to goo of her goodenes,
And she also to vse new fangilnes.

That may have been one of those self-descriptive nouns.

(I don't think it would have been much later that he would have been
laughed out of Court for rhyming words on the syllable "ness".)
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2021-03-28 12:25:39 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross Clark
Post by bruce bowser
What exactly makes a person high falutin' or trashy regarding socio economic status?
Can't help you there, son, but "high falutin'" shore do put me in mind
of "new-fangled". I would've put it in the same etymological basket
(American, early 19th century).
So what's this in this morning's reading: "Roberte Coplande boke
prynter to new fanglers", dating from the early 1500s?
?a1300  (▸c1250)    Prov. Hendyng (Digby) xxxv, in Anglia (1881) 4 197
(MED)   If þi loverd is neufangel, Ne be þou nout forþi outgangel Mid
illore iwon.
  ▸ a1393   J. Gower Confessio Amantis (Fairf.) v. 4367 (MED)   Every
newe love quemeth To him which newefongel is.
  ▸ c1395   G. Chaucer Squire's Tale 618   So newefangel [v.r. newe
faggil] been they of hir mete And louen nouelries of propre kynde.
This is "newfangle" (adj) 'fond of novelty or new things', the
earliest form. (The etymology of the -fangle is obscure.) But by about
1500 people are adding a -d to it, and this becomes the most popular
version. They are also extracting "fangle" to use as a noun meaning a
fashion or novelty (1548). Coplande's "(new)fangler(s)" seems an
obvious further step, but may have had no posterity, as OED shows no
citations of it.
The Wiktionary article seems to have it taped.

Etymology 1
From Middle English fangelen (verb), from fangel (“inclined to take”,
adjective), from Old English *fangol, *fangel (“inclined to take”), from
fōn (“to take, seize”). Compare Old English andfangol (“undertaker,
contractor”), Old English underfangelnes (“undertaking, hospitality”),
Middle English fangen (“to take, seize, catch”), German fangen (“to
catch”). More at fang, onfang.

Verb
fangle (third-person singular simple present fangles, present participle
fangling, simple past and past participle fangled)

(obsolete or dialectal) To fashion, manufacture, invent, or create.
(obsolete or dialectal) To trim showily; entangle; hang about.
(obsolete or dialectal) To waste time; trifle.
Usage notes
Although obsolete in general English, the verb is still occasionally
used in some regions, and is retained in the expression newfangled.

Derived terms
fangleness
newfangle
newfangled
Etymology 2
Back formation from newfangled (adjective) as if new + fangle (noun).
See newfangle.

Noun
fangle (plural fangles)

(obsolete) A prop; a taking up; a new thing.
Something newly fashioned; a novelty, a new fancy.
A foolish innovation; a gewgaw; a trifling ornament.
A conceit; whim.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fangle
Post by Jerry Friedman
There's also Wyatt's
And I have leve to goo of her goodenes,
And she also to vse new fangilnes.
That may have been one of those self-descriptive nouns.
(I don't think it would have been much later that he would have been
laughed out of Court for rhyming words on the syllable "ness".)
Sorry for hitching. Too lazy to search through suppressed back-postings.
Ross Clark
2021-03-28 21:18:51 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross Clark
Post by bruce bowser
What exactly makes a person high falutin' or trashy regarding socio economic status?
Can't help you there, son, but "high falutin'" shore do put me in
mind of "new-fangled". I would've put it in the same etymological
basket (American, early 19th century).
So what's this in this morning's reading: "Roberte Coplande boke
prynter to new fanglers", dating from the early 1500s?
?a1300  (▸c1250)    Prov. Hendyng (Digby) xxxv, in Anglia (1881) 4
197 (MED)   If þi loverd is neufangel, Ne be þou nout forþi outgangel
Mid illore iwon.
  ▸ a1393   J. Gower Confessio Amantis (Fairf.) v. 4367 (MED)   Every
newe love quemeth To him which newefongel is.
  ▸ c1395   G. Chaucer Squire's Tale 618   So newefangel [v.r. newe
faggil] been they of hir mete And louen nouelries of propre kynde.
This is "newfangle" (adj) 'fond of novelty or new things', the
earliest form. (The etymology of the -fangle is obscure.) But by
about 1500 people are adding a -d to it, and this becomes the most
popular version. They are also extracting "fangle" to use as a noun
meaning a fashion or novelty (1548). Coplande's "(new)fangler(s)"
seems an obvious further step, but may have had no posterity, as OED
shows no citations of it.
The Wiktionary article seems to have it taped.
Etymology 1
From Middle English fangelen (verb), from fangel (“inclined to take”,
adjective), from Old English *fangol, *fangel (“inclined to take”), from
fōn (“to take, seize”). Compare Old English andfangol (“undertaker,
contractor”), Old English underfangelnes (“undertaking, hospitality”),
Middle English fangen (“to take, seize, catch”), German fangen (“to
catch”). More at fang, onfang.
OK, but note the stars. OED says "[from] an otherwise unattested
adjective (probably with the sense ‘inclined to take’)". They also
mention likely related forms in Middle Dutch and Faroese. And it is
plausibly connected to fang 'grab'.
That's what I meant by "obscure" (not 'totally unknown').
Post by CDB
Verb
fangle (third-person singular simple present fangles, present participle
fangling, simple past and past participle fangled)
(obsolete or dialectal) To fashion, manufacture, invent, or create.
(obsolete or dialectal) To trim showily; entangle; hang about.
(obsolete or dialectal) To waste time; trifle.
Usage notes
Although obsolete in general English, the verb is still occasionally
used in some regions, and is retained in the expression newfangled.
Derived terms
fangleness
newfangle
newfangled
Etymology 2
Back formation from newfangled (adjective) as if new + fangle (noun).
See newfangle.
Noun
fangle (plural fangles)
(obsolete) A prop; a taking up; a new thing.
Something newly fashioned; a novelty, a new fancy.
A foolish innovation; a gewgaw; a trifling ornament.
A conceit; whim.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fangle
Post by Jerry Friedman
There's also Wyatt's
And I have leve to goo of her goodenes,
And she also to vse new fangilnes.
That may have been one of those self-descriptive nouns.
(I don't think it would have been much later that he would have been
laughed out of Court for rhyming words on the syllable "ness".)
Sorry for hitching.  Too lazy to search through suppressed back-postings.
CDB
2021-03-29 11:55:27 UTC
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Post by Ross Clark
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross Clark
Post by bruce bowser
What exactly makes a person high falutin' or trashy regarding
socio economic status?
Can't help you there, son, but "high falutin'" shore do put me
in mind of "new-fangled". I would've put it in the same
etymological basket (American, early 19th century). So what's
this in this morning's reading: "Roberte Coplande boke prynter
to new fanglers", dating from the early 1500s? Not a new word
?a1300 (▸c1250) Prov. Hendyng (Digby) xxxv, in Anglia
(1881) 4 197 (MED) If þi loverd is neufangel, Ne be þou nout
forþi outgangel Mid illore iwon. ▸ a1393 J. Gower Confessio
Amantis (Fairf.) v. 4367 (MED) Every newe love quemeth To him
which newefongel is. ▸ c1395 G. Chaucer Squire's Tale 618
So newefangel [v.r. newe faggil] been they of hir mete And
louen nouelries of propre kynde.
This is "newfangle" (adj) 'fond of novelty or new things', the
earliest form. (The etymology of the -fangle is obscure.) But
by about 1500 people are adding a -d to it, and this becomes
the most popular version. They are also extracting "fangle" to
use as a noun meaning a fashion or novelty (1548). Coplande's
"(new)fangler(s)" seems an obvious further step, but may have
had no posterity, as OED shows no citations of it.
The Wiktionary article seems to have it taped.
Etymology 1 From Middle English fangelen (verb), from fangel
(“inclined to take”, adjective), from Old English *fangol, *fangel
(“inclined to take”), from fōn (“to take, seize”). Compare Old
English andfangol (“undertaker, contractor”), Old English
underfangelnes (“undertaking, hospitality”), Middle English fangen
(“to take, seize, catch”), German fangen (“to catch”). More at
fang, onfang.
OK, but note the stars. OED says "[from] an otherwise unattested
adjective (probably with the sense ‘inclined to take’)". They also
mention likely related forms in Middle Dutch and Faroese. And it is
plausibly connected to fang 'grab'.
Yes, to pick up, as in "finger".
Post by Ross Clark
That's what I meant by "obscure" (not 'totally unknown').
Fair enough; I believe that is the origin, though. Where else is it
going to come from?

I couldn't find a claim that the "-el" is diminutive, but I believe that
too. I suppose that would mean the noun came first.

Onelook has added a new feature. Below the list of dictionary entries,
it showed a short list of uses in a choice of "Books" or "Wikipedia", or
both.
Post by Ross Clark
Post by CDB
Verb fangle (third-person singular simple present fangles, present
participle fangling, simple past and past participle fangled)
(obsolete or dialectal) To fashion, manufacture, invent, or
create. (obsolete or dialectal) To trim showily; entangle; hang
about. (obsolete or dialectal) To waste time; trifle. Usage notes
Although obsolete in general English, the verb is still
occasionally used in some regions, and is retained in the
expression newfangled.
Derived terms fangleness newfangle newfangled Etymology 2 Back
formation from newfangled (adjective) as if new + fangle (noun).
See newfangle.
Noun fangle (plural fangles)
(obsolete) A prop; a taking up; a new thing. Something newly
fashioned; a novelty, a new fancy. A foolish innovation; a gewgaw;
a trifling ornament. A conceit; whim.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fangle
Post by Jerry Friedman
There's also Wyatt's
And I have leve to goo of her goodenes, And she also to vse new
fangilnes.
That may have been one of those self-descriptive nouns.
(I don't think it would have been much later that he would have
been laughed out of Court for rhyming words on the syllable
"ness".)
Sorry for hitching. Too lazy to search through suppressed
back-postings.
Quinn C
2021-03-30 17:14:41 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Ross Clark
OK, but note the stars. OED says "[from] an otherwise unattested
adjective (probably with the sense ‘inclined to take’)". They also
mention likely related forms in Middle Dutch and Faroese. And it is
plausibly connected to fang 'grab'.
Yes, to pick up, as in "finger".
Post by Ross Clark
That's what I meant by "obscure" (not 'totally unknown').
Fair enough; I believe that is the origin, though. Where else is it
going to come from?
An attitude that has brought us hundreds of false etymologies.

Including your suggested relationship of finger to fang. The most
popular theory is that finger derives from the root for five.
--
There is no freedom for men unless there is freedom for women.
If women mustn't bring their will to the fore, why should men
be allowed to?
-- Hedwig Dohm (1876), my translation
CDB
2021-03-31 12:04:46 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Ross Clark
OK, but note the stars. OED says "[from] an otherwise unattested
adjective (probably with the sense ‘inclined to take’)". They
also mention likely related forms in Middle Dutch and Faroese.
And it is plausibly connected to fang 'grab'.
Yes, to pick up, as in "finger".
Post by Ross Clark
That's what I meant by "obscure" (not 'totally unknown').
Fair enough; I believe that is the origin, though. Where else is
it going to come from?
An attitude that has brought us hundreds of false etymologies.
Including your suggested relationship of finger to fang. The most
popular theory is that finger derives from the root for five.
Yes, I saw that. And yet, the noticeable similarity may have influenced
usage over the centuries. Etymology is done by scholars limping in
pursuit of a living process of analogyand association carried on by real
people; often the boffins fail to catch up.

Why do so many words ending in "-ash", not wtymologically related to
each other, denote sudden or violent activities? Bash, crash, dash,
flash, gash, lash ... plenty more.

Anyway, somebody atround here has to do the farfetching.
--
... gnash, quash, smash, splash, swash, and thrash, frex. Why has the
verb "trash", to discard as worthless, recently come to mean "destroy
violently"? The beat goes on.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-31 14:28:26 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Ross Clark
OK, but note the stars. OED says "[from] an otherwise unattested
adjective (probably with the sense ‘inclined to take’)". They
also mention likely related forms in Middle Dutch and Faroese.
And it is plausibly connected to fang 'grab'.
Yes, to pick up, as in "finger".
Post by Ross Clark
That's what I meant by "obscure" (not 'totally unknown').
Fair enough; I believe that is the origin, though. Where else is
it going to come from?
An attitude that has brought us hundreds of false etymologies.
Including your suggested relationship of finger to fang. The most
popular theory is that finger derives from the root for five.
Yes, I saw that. And yet, the noticeable similarity may have influenced
usage over the centuries. Etymology is done by scholars limping in
pursuit of a living process of analogyand association carried on by real
people; often the boffins fail to catch up.
Why do so many words ending in "-ash", not wtymologically related to
each other, denote sudden or violent activities? Bash, crash, dash,
flash, gash, lash ... plenty more.
The technical term is "sound symbolism." There are many such families
of words in English, and in a number of languages the phenomenon is
grammaticalized.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_symbolism

A pattern that doesn't seem to be mentioned there is front-to-back
(bibbety-bobbity-boo), also close-to-open (tick-tock, hickory-dickory-
dock, clip-clop). (There was at least one Chicago Linguistic Society
talk on this in the early days, but as I discovered with the anaphoric
peninsula matter, most CLS Proceedings are not on line.)

See also "ideophones."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideophone
Joy Beeson
2021-04-03 15:08:32 UTC
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Post by CDB
Why has the
verb "trash", to discard as worthless, recently come to mean "destroy
violently"?
I'm not sure how much younger I was when I first heard "trashing" for
"act of vandalism", but there's nothing sudden about it.

This was one of those new-to-me words that immediately strike one as
superior. Trashers shouldn't be allowed to call themselves anything
as noble as "Vandals".
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
Quinn C
2021-04-03 16:36:38 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
Post by CDB
Why has the
verb "trash", to discard as worthless, recently come to mean "destroy
violently"?
I'm not sure how much younger I was when I first heard "trashing" for
"act of vandalism", but there's nothing sudden about it.
This was one of those new-to-me words that immediately strike one as
superior. Trashers shouldn't be allowed to call themselves anything
as noble as "Vandals".
You have an interesting relationship to "Vandals".
--
Was den Juengeren fehlt, sind keine Botschaften, es ist der Sinn
fuer Zusammenhaenge. [Young people aren't short of messages, but
of a sense for interconnections.]
-- Helen Feng im Zeit-Interview
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-03 17:49:16 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
Post by CDB
Why has the
verb "trash", to discard as worthless, recently come to mean "destroy
violently"?
I'm not sure how much younger I was when I first heard "trashing" for
"act of vandalism", but there's nothing sudden about it.
This was one of those new-to-me words that immediately strike one as
superior. Trashers shouldn't be allowed to call themselves anything
as noble as "Vandals".
Originally said of rock stars w.r.t. hotel rooms?
Ross Clark
2021-04-03 21:10:25 UTC
Reply
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Post by Joy Beeson
Post by CDB
Why has the
verb "trash", to discard as worthless, recently come to mean "destroy
violently"?
I'm not sure how much younger I was when I first heard "trashing" for
"act of vandalism", but there's nothing sudden about it.
This was one of those new-to-me words that immediately strike one as
superior. Trashers shouldn't be allowed to call themselves anything
as noble as "Vandals".
Green's examples show "trash (v)" appearing around 1970, for various
types of violent destruction (political or merely vandalous), for
grievous bodily harm, and metaphorically for destructive criticism.
Perhaps the last is what you meant by "discard as worthless"?
I don't think I've ever heard it used to mean literally throw something
in the trash/rubbish/garbage, though it seems a natural possibility. It
could even be the (undocumented) sense that leads to the ones mentioned
above.

Oh dear -- this led to another nice old usage picked up by both Green
and OED (under a different headword):

1859 J. R. Bartlett Dict. Americanisms (ed. 2) To trash a trail, an
expression used at the West, meaning to conceal the direction one has
taken by walking in a stream.

1871 St Louis (MO) Republican April n.p.: What we admire most in Carl
Schurz's movement, is, that he comes out boldly and takes no pains to
trash his trail. We admire plain dealings.
CDB
2021-04-05 15:35:08 UTC
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Post by Ross Clark
Post by Joy Beeson
Why has the verb "trash", to discard as worthless, recently come
to mean "destroy violently"?
I'm not sure how much younger I was when I first heard "trashing"
for "act of vandalism", but there's nothing sudden about it.
This was one of those new-to-me words that immediately strike one
as superior. Trashers shouldn't be allowed to call themselves
anything as noble as "Vandals".
Green's examples show "trash (v)" appearing around 1970, for various
types of violent destruction (political or merely vandalous), for
grievous bodily harm, and metaphorically for destructive criticism.
Perhaps the last is what you meant by "discard as worthless"? I don't
think I've ever heard it used to mean literally throw something in
the trash/rubbish/garbage, though it seems a natural possibility. It
could even be the (undocumented) sense that leads to the ones
mentioned above.
I got that definition (1859) from the Online Etym Dic:

https://www.etymonline.com/word/trash

Other dictionaries at Onelook have "discard" (Oxford American,
Wiktionary), and "throw away" (M-W), along with the more violent
actions. My point was merely that the word was likely to take on
connotations of violence because of its ending, through the non-academic
processes of analogy that I mentioned in the earlier posting.
Post by Ross Clark
Oh dear -- this led to another nice old usage picked up by both Green
1859 J. R. Bartlett Dict. Americanisms (ed. 2) To trash a trail,
an expression used at the West, meaning to conceal the direction one
has taken by walking in a stream.
1871 St Louis (MO) Republican April n.p.: What we admire most in Carl
Schurz's movement, is, that he comes out boldly and takes no pains
to trash his trail. We admire plain dealings.
OK, to make useless -- still in line with the meaning of the noun
"trash", and with no connotation of violence.

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